Dolphin Players bullied Jonathan Martin, Richie Incognito SUSPENDED (1 Viewer)

[MoveToSkypager]

6. I trust the opinions of guys playing in the NFL right now over retired guys on tv shows. They'll say whatever is pc right now to keep their jobs.

Why don't you think the retired guys have more freedom to say what they want because their football career is over? Tom Jackson isn't getting fired anytime soon.

Almost everyone on ESPN has the exact same opinion. The opinion that is the most PC and coddles the majority of their viewership. Few are looking to rock the boat on an issue like this. Has Tom Jackson ever been on the minority side of any issue?

Even a thug like Ray Lewis spoke out against Incognito. I have heard very few people defend the guy. He was already one of the league's most hated players.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000276773/article/richie-incognito-has-support-in-dolphins-locker-room

Martin and Incognito both do. The Dolphins locker room isn't taking sides. They want them both to return to the team and play.

 

[Steve Tasker]

I hate to say it, but just because Incognito is a dirty player and seemingly a ######## in his personal life doesn't make him a bad teammate. I'm sure we've all played on teams with guys like him - the guy who you hate to play against but you love to play with. I genuinely wonder if this situation would be different if it were a squeaky-clean average NFL o-lineman and not Incognito, with his dirty-player rep and history of prior problems.

Either way, I'm waiting for many more details before jumping to any conclusions. We collectively know so little about the situation at this point.

 

[ldizzle]

I love this thread. It has allowed me to weed out the unintelligent people more easily by adding them to my ignore list. I dont need any fantasy input from a moron.

 

[JAMES!]

So........from what ive seen this morning it seems

1. Incognito was given instructions to toughen Martin up after he skipped Aprils voluntary OTAs.

2. Incognito was probably "allowed" to use the n word as a part of a brotherhood around his circle of black friends in the locker room.

3. The voicemail is becoming more and more lame in this context.

4 While not right imo, a lot of guys are coming out and saying they spent 10 grand plus their rookie year on benefits for veterans.

5. While they wont say it on tv, im willing to bet the majority of nfl players would rather have Incognito in their locker room tomorrow than Martin.

6. I trust the opinions of guys playing in the NFL right now over retired guys on tv shows. They'll say whatever is pc right now to keep their jobs.

I'm not absolving Incognito, i think he's on the psycho end of things and took things way too far but i also don't think he's the devil that has been portrayed the last few days.

A whole lot of opinion thrown in there.

Where did you hear the black players allowed him to use the n-word?

The voicemail being lame and and you being 'willing to bet' players would want a doosh like Incognito around are nothing but your tainted opinion.

Chris Carter was on saying that white guys in locker rooms he's been in were allowed to use the n word among their black friends in close circles, was on First Take. Incognito and Pouncey were close, you really think this was the first time Incognito dropped the n bomb among the circle of o linemen? As far as Igcognito over Martin in the locker room, we will find out.

Incognito is done. He won't play again.

I don't think so. He still has to weather the storm, as he put it, but I don't think this incident keeps him out of the league for good. He was a pro-bowler last season - I have no idea where he ranks among NFL guards this year.

From Pro Football Focus a few weeks ago:

21. Miami Dolphins: -7.0

Stud: The ultra-aggressive Richie Incognito (+7.0) has been especially impressive with his pass protection work.

He's a cancer and a known assh***. I think he signed his retirement papers with this whole Martin thing. Not many teams looking for average journeyman lineman wanting to poop in teammates' mouths.

He was a pro-bowler last year. He'll play again.

 

[Bogeys]

So........from what ive seen this morning it seems

1. Incognito was given instructions to toughen Martin up after he skipped Aprils voluntary OTAs.

2. Incognito was probably "allowed" to use the n word as a part of a brotherhood around his circle of black friends in the locker room.

3. The voicemail is becoming more and more lame in this context.

4 While not right imo, a lot of guys are coming out and saying they spent 10 grand plus their rookie year on benefits for veterans.

5. While they wont say it on tv, im willing to bet the majority of nfl players would rather have Incognito in their locker room tomorrow than Martin.

6. I trust the opinions of guys playing in the NFL right now over retired guys on tv shows. They'll say whatever is pc right now to keep their jobs.

I'm not absolving Incognito, i think he's on the psycho end of things and took things way too far but i also don't think he's the devil that has been portrayed the last few days.

A whole lot of opinion thrown in there.

Where did you hear the black players allowed him to use the n-word?

The voicemail being lame and and you being 'willing to bet' players would want a doosh like Incognito around are nothing but your tainted opinion.

Chris Carter was on saying that white guys in locker rooms he's been in were allowed to use the n word among their black friends in close circles, was on First Take. Incognito and Pouncey were close, you really think this was the first time Incognito dropped the n bomb among the circle of o linemen? As far as Igcognito over Martin in the locker room, we will find out.

Incognito is done. He won't play again.

I disagree especially if its proven that he was told to toughen Martin up. Nothing he did will sour future teammates.

It won't be the players making the decision though, rather it will be the owners and if Miami ends up paying out a big settlement I would bet they won't take a chance on signing him. The 3rd string punter will be suing them after a few weeks of Incognito being in the locker room.

 

[MoveToSkypager]

I love this thread. It has allowed me to weed out the unintelligent people more easily by adding them to my ignore list. I dont need any fantasy input from a moron.

That's pretty mean to say. I don't think anyone here is a moron.

 

[JuniorNB]

I love this thread. It has allowed me to weed out the unintelligent people more easily by adding them to my ignore list. I dont need any fantasy input from a moron.

That's pretty mean to say. I don't think anyone here is a moron.

I think you may have just quoted one.

 

[Norman Paperman]

I hate to say it, but just because Incognito is a dirty player and seemingly a ######## in his personal life doesn't make him a bad teammate. I'm sure we've all played on teams with guys like him - the guy who you hate to play against but you love to play with. I genuinely wonder if this situation would be different if it were a squeaky-clean average NFL o-lineman and not Incognito, with his dirty-player rep and history of prior problems.

Either way, I'm waiting for many more details before jumping to any conclusions. We collectively know so little about the situation at this point.

 

[KCitons]

I love this thread. It has allowed me to weed out the unintelligent people more easily by adding them to my ignore list. I dont need any fantasy input from a moron.

That's pretty mean to say. I don't think anyone here is a moron.

I think you may have just quoted one.

Let him go, he's only hurting his fantasy team

 

[MoveToSkypager]

I love this thread. It has allowed me to weed out the unintelligent people more easily by adding them to my ignore list. I dont need any fantasy input from a moron.

That's pretty mean to say. I don't think anyone here is a moron.

I think you may have just quoted one.

Maybe :(

 

[fruity pebbles]

So........from what ive seen this morning it seems

1. Incognito was given instructions to toughen Martin up after he skipped Aprils voluntary OTAs.

2. Incognito was probably "allowed" to use the n word as a part of a brotherhood around his circle of black friends in the locker room.

3. The voicemail is becoming more and more lame in this context.

4 While not right imo, a lot of guys are coming out and saying they spent 10 grand plus their rookie year on benefits for veterans.

5. While they wont say it on tv, im willing to bet the majority of nfl players would rather have Incognito in their locker room tomorrow than Martin.

6. I trust the opinions of guys playing in the NFL right now over retired guys on tv shows. They'll say whatever is pc right now to keep their jobs.

I'm not absolving Incognito, i think he's on the psycho end of things and took things way too far but i also don't think he's the devil that has been portrayed the last few days.

A whole lot of opinion thrown in there.

Where did you hear the black players allowed him to use the n-word?

The voicemail being lame and and you being 'willing to bet' players would want a doosh like Incognito around are nothing but your tainted opinion.

Chris Carter was on saying that white guys in locker rooms he's been in were allowed to use the n word among their black friends in close circles, was on First Take. Incognito and Pouncey were close, you really think this was the first time Incognito dropped the n bomb among the circle of o linemen? As far as Igcognito over Martin in the locker room, we will find out.

Incognito is done. He won't play again.

I disagree especially if its proven that he was told to toughen Martin up. Nothing he did will sour future teammates.

It won't be the players making the decision though, rather it will be the owners and if Miami ends up paying out a big settlement I would bet they won't take a chance on signing him. The 3rd string punter will be suing them after a few weeks of Incognito being in the locker room.

You may be right but i think by next season this will have died down enough. Plenty of guys doing far worse have be given multiple chances if they are good football players. Only way Martin gets a big settlement is if the Dolphins knew and/or told Incognito to go hard on the guy. And if thats the case, i don't see any way Richie isn't back in the NFL. Hell, he may be able to sue if they blackball him out.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

I'm waiting for many more details before jumping to any conclusions. We collectively know so little about the situation at this point.

Come on now, if people actually waited for facts most of these posts wouldn't even exist.

 

[MoveToSkypager]

I hate to say it, but just because Incognito is a dirty player and seemingly a ######## in his personal life doesn't make him a bad teammate. I'm sure we've all played on teams with guys like him - the guy who you hate to play against but you love to play with. I genuinely wonder if this situation would be different if it were a squeaky-clean average NFL o-lineman and not Incognito, with his dirty-player rep and history of prior problems.

Either way, I'm waiting for many more details before jumping to any conclusions. We collectively know so little about the situation at this point.

Come on now, if people actually waited for facts most of these posts wouldn't even exist.

There is no point in not jumping to conclusions.

 

[fruity pebbles]

Guess theres an article in the Miami Herald today that says in the locker room Incognito was seen as more black than Martin was. He was an "honorary" black guy by his black teammates given his background etc. Martin on the other was not seen as black given his upbringing and Stanford education. Not sure if that means anything in the grand scheme of this but i found it interesting anyways.

 

[Dizzy]

Wake me up when somebody that plays (or has played) in the NFL comes forward and sticks up for Martin.

You've been sleeping this whole time. Why wake you?

Was that even a serious question?

Herm Edwards

Larry Fitzgerald

Doug Baldwin

London Fletcher

WIllie Colon

Mitchell Schwartz

Tom Jackson

Garret Gilkey

Josh Brown

D'Qwell Jackson

To name a few....

No.

 

[MoveToSkypager]

I think it's funny that Florida has three shots at having a competently run football team, and they produce the Jags (traveshamockery of a team), the Bucs (where the players are probably planning a murder of their coach) and the Dolphins.

I'm sure it'll get better one day.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

Wake me up when somebody that plays (or has played) in the NFL comes forward and sticks up for Martin.

You've been sleeping this whole time. Why wake you?

Was that even a serious question?

Herm Edwards

Larry Fitzgerald

Doug Baldwin

London Fletcher

WIllie Colon

Mitchell Schwartz

Tom Jackson

Garret Gilkey

Josh Brown

D'Qwell Jackson

To name a few....

No.

 

[cobalt_27]

If the coaches did indeed tell Incognito to "toughen up" Martin, than that sanctimonious fool Philbin must go. Really, how dare he go on about suspending Incognito when he knew damn well his own culpability.

There's a lot of real estate between "toughen him up" and the behavior incognito engaged in. I doubt this is what Philbin had in mind, and 99.999999% of people wouldn't take that comment to represent a blank check to do whatever the #### one wants.

It does not matter, particularly in a context of missing a "voluntary" workout. I'm sure there is no paper trail of this information, but this guy was a worm in his presser and I don't doubt for a moment he had more insight into this than he let on. And he let Incognito play a game knowing this information, he bowed to public pressure rather than responding to this situation.

I also would take issue with with the notion that Incognito "did whatever he wanted".

Where does the buck stop? I'd like to see a lot more facts, and context counts for any of Incognito's behavior.

None of what you said here trumps or excuses Incognito's behavior. I'm uncomfortable laying blame on anyone else other than Incognito and have been surprised by the small minority out there who have attempted to do exactly that.

You're scapegoating Incognito and if you're truly concerned about the culture of bullying, you're not to the core of a corrective punishment. Incognito pulled the trigger but the coaches put the gun in his hand, either implicitly or through ignorance.

And since people want to apply real world standards to the NFL, you can believe there would be ramifications if his actions were ordered or endorsed in the structure of a work place. Incognito has to answer to his bosses as well.

And to apply a term closer to football, albeit it college, it would appear Dolphin management has displayed a lack of instituitional control

I am quite alright with finding Fins coaches and management culpable so long as it does not represent (a) an implication that Incognito should get a free pass here AND (b) that Martin is in some way at fault for Incognito 's behavior. Fins and Incognito shoulder all the blame for this. Martin may be a listless boob, but in No way should have been subjected to this level of treatment.

 

[Zaphod]

I hate to say it, but just because Incognito is a dirty player and seemingly a ######## in his personal life doesn't make him a bad teammate. I'm sure we've all played on teams with guys like him - the guy who you hate to play against but you love to play with. I genuinely wonder if this situation would be different if it were a squeaky-clean average NFL o-lineman and not Incognito, with his dirty-player rep and history of prior problems.

Either way, I'm waiting for many more details before jumping to any conclusions. We collectively know so little about the situation at this point.

I love you Ramsey!

 

[ChuckLiddell]

My take, based upon the information that we have today:

Incognito had good intentions, and horrendously bad execution.

His intentions were to take a player who was not practicing or playing to his potential, and try to maximize his talent to help the football team. A young, unproven player like Martin, who was drafted in the second round and being counted on to protect the blindside of a franchise quarterback on a team with playoff aspirations should have been present at "voluntary" workouts if he was a team player, and was in fact trying to maximize his own potential. If proven vets like Pouncey and Incognito himself could find the time to attend, then so should the unproven 2nd year player who was going to start at the lines most crucial position. I find it to be a safe assumption (yet still just an assumption) that the team wanted him there, and the OL's ambassador either took it upon himself, or was advised to try to get him into camp.

This is where the bad execution comes into play. The most damning evidence that anything out of the ordinary took place here is in the texts and voicemails that we have all read transcripts of. Again, I am assuming that this was Incognito's efforts to motivate Martin to get into camp, not to "bully" him. Arguable that he was bullying him to get to camp to get better to help the team...but I am personally OK with that type of bullying. The language and terms that were used may or may not be OK in a locker room environment, but this was outside of the locker room. And because he took it out of the locker room, it may cost him his career.

I have a feeling, based upon my opinions that I am just as entitled to as anyone else, that Incognito is guilty of being a jackass more than a bully. My opinion based upon what I have seen so far is that while he may have the talent, Martin does not have the necessary demeanor to play in the NFL, and is yet another in a long line of botched early draft picks by this regime - only this may be the one that finally takes them down.

I personally have very little issue with the $15K, and the lunchroom pranks. From what others around the NFL are saying, it happens in nearly every locker room. The fact that Martin reportedly pulled the same prank on a fellow OL the previous week completely nullifies it in my opinion. If he can dish it out, he needs to be able to take it.

 

[rct]

Wake me up when somebody that plays (or has played) in the NFL comes forward and sticks up for Martin.

You've been sleeping this whole time. Why wake you?

Was that even a serious question?

Herm Edwards

Larry Fitzgerald

Doug Baldwin

London Fletcher

WIllie Colon

Mitchell Schwartz

Tom Jackson

Garret Gilkey

Josh Brown

D'Qwell Jackson

To name a few....

No.

Which probably holds true for everything else you have said in this thread (and means we shouldn't take any of that seriously either).

 

[Bogeys]

So........from what ive seen this morning it seems

1. Incognito was given instructions to toughen Martin up after he skipped Aprils voluntary OTAs.

2. Incognito was probably "allowed" to use the n word as a part of a brotherhood around his circle of black friends in the locker room.

3. The voicemail is becoming more and more lame in this context.

4 While not right imo, a lot of guys are coming out and saying they spent 10 grand plus their rookie year on benefits for veterans.

5. While they wont say it on tv, im willing to bet the majority of nfl players would rather have Incognito in their locker room tomorrow than Martin.

6. I trust the opinions of guys playing in the NFL right now over retired guys on tv shows. They'll say whatever is pc right now to keep their jobs.

I'm not absolving Incognito, i think he's on the psycho end of things and took things way too far but i also don't think he's the devil that has been portrayed the last few days.

A whole lot of opinion thrown in there.

Where did you hear the black players allowed him to use the n-word?

The voicemail being lame and and you being 'willing to bet' players would want a doosh like Incognito around are nothing but your tainted opinion.

Chris Carter was on saying that white guys in locker rooms he's been in were allowed to use the n word among their black friends in close circles, was on First Take. Incognito and Pouncey were close, you really think this was the first time Incognito dropped the n bomb among the circle of o linemen? As far as Igcognito over Martin in the locker room, we will find out.

Incognito is done. He won't play again.

I disagree especially if its proven that he was told to toughen Martin up. Nothing he did will sour future teammates.

It won't be the players making the decision though, rather it will be the owners and if Miami ends up paying out a big settlement I would bet they won't take a chance on signing him. The 3rd string punter will be suing them after a few weeks of Incognito being in the locker room.

You may be right but i think by next season this will have died down enough. Plenty of guys doing far worse have be given multiple chances if they are good football players. Only way Martin gets a big settlement is if the Dolphins knew and/or told Incognito to go hard on the guy. And if thats the case, i don't see any way Richie isn't back in the NFL. Hell, he may be able to sue if they blackball him out.

I honestly can't think of a situation where it cost the owners money, not just the player. I don't think paying out a contract is really comparable since that would be more of a business decision as opposed to something imposed from the outside.

I guess someone might take a chance, but I have no doubt there would be a handler assigned just to Incognito to make sure he didn't screw up...and he would be on the shortest leash ever made.

ETA: I doubt he would be able to ever prove blackballing since I don't think there would really be a discussion about that. The NFL could ban him and he might have a chance in court for something like that.

 

[Bob Magaw]

Most players are going to at least privately have the opinion that Martin handled this terribly and while Incognito may have gone above and beyond in being a d'bag, they'd side with him if they were being honest. There may be a few exceptions but any player publicly backing Martin would be doing so solely for the purpose of protecting their own image. Going forward i think Martin is going to have trouble where ever he goes where as Incognito will be fine. The only people who have a problem with Incognito are the media and "fans" who've never played the game and even those people really don't have a problem they just like to share their pretend opinions because they want to come off a certain way. The amount of attention this has gotten shows how far we've fallen as a society. People pretend to want blood and then once this simmers down it'll be on to the next thing to fake complain about.

so anybody that sees things different from you has pretend opinions...

but you are of course exempt in this process, and your opinions are real?

 

[JAMES!]

Most players are going to at least privately have the opinion that Martin handled this terribly and while Incognito may have gone above and beyond in being a d'bag, they'd side with him if they were being honest. There may be a few exceptions but any player publicly backing Martin would be doing so solely for the purpose of protecting their own image. Going forward i think Martin is going to have trouble where ever he goes where as Incognito will be fine. The only people who have a problem with Incognito are the media and "fans" who've never played the game and even those people really don't have a problem they just like to share their pretend opinions because they want to come off a certain way. The amount of attention this has gotten shows how far we've fallen as a society. People pretend to want blood and then once this simmers down it'll be on to the next thing to fake complain about.

so anybody that sees things different from you has pretend opinions...

but you are of course exempt in this process, and your opinions are real?

No?

 

[RBM]

My take, based upon the information that we have today:

Incognito had good intentions, and horrendously bad execution.

His intentions were to take a player who was not practicing or playing to his potential, and try to maximize his talent to help the football team. A young, unproven player like Martin, who was drafted in the second round and being counted on to protect the blindside of a franchise quarterback on a team with playoff aspirations should have been present at "voluntary" workouts if he was a team player, and was in fact trying to maximize his own potential. If proven vets like Pouncey and Incognito himself could find the time to attend, then so should the unproven 2nd year player who was going to start at the lines most crucial position. I find it to be a safe assumption (yet still just an assumption) that the team wanted him there, and the OL's ambassador either took it upon himself, or was advised to try to get him into camp.

This is where the bad execution comes into play. The most damning evidence that anything out of the ordinary took place here is in the texts and voicemails that we have all read transcripts of. Again, I am assuming that this was Incognito's efforts to motivate Martin to get into camp, not to "bully" him. Arguable that he was bullying him to get to camp to get better to help the team...but I am personally OK with that type of bullying. The language and terms that were used may or may not be OK in a locker room environment, but this was outside of the locker room. And because he took it out of the locker room, it may cost him his career.

I have a feeling, based upon my opinions that I am just as entitled to as anyone else, that Incognito is guilty of being a jackass more than a bully. My opinion based upon what I have seen so far is that while he may have the talent, Martin does not have the necessary demeanor to play in the NFL, and is yet another in a long line of botched early draft picks by this regime - only this may be the one that finally takes them down.

I personally have very little issue with the $15K, and the lunchroom pranks. From what others around the NFL are saying, it happens in nearly every locker room. The fact that Martin reportedly pulled the same prank on a fellow OL the previous week completely nullifies it in my opinion. If he can dish it out, he needs to be able to take it.

Probably the best post in this entire thread, imo. Completely fair and rational and non judgemental.

Nice job Chuck

 

[Bob Magaw]

-7) What would you think about Martin if he shot Incognito?

I wouldn't care. In all honesty, these guys are just names in the news to me. People die all the time and there are not enough hours in the day to mourn all of them. Not trying to come off cold and heartless, but the reality is deaths are reported in the news every morning before I leave for work... and I don't reflect on any of them for one moment because I have no personal connection to them.

yes, you have made your general too cool for school, apathy to the human condition clear...

so you don't care whether people you don't know are murdered or not...

but you care enough to stir the pot on a mssg board with people you don't know...

maybe you shouldn't be handing out "life coach advice"... if people follow it and end up dead, you aren't going to care anyways because it isn't your problem.

* this would be the basis of a good twilight zone... your coworker reads this thread, thinks, yeah, violence is the best way to deal with bullying, and brings a gun just in case, the fight escalates, shots are fired, you are mortally wounded in the crossfire... as you contemplate your fate, you think to yourself, maybe the world i advocated and in some small way contributed to with my thoughts and attitiudes, is not such a great one to actually live in.

 

[Dizzy]

Which probably holds true for everything else you have said in this thread (and means we shouldn't take any of that seriously either).

Correct.

This whole thread is a fart in the wind. Guys puff up and try to blow this crap into a reflection on society, when it's just about a guy that simply quit. Martin didn't like the environment he was in... so he left.

 

[Dizzy]

-7) What would you think about Martin if he shot Incognito?

I wouldn't care. In all honesty, these guys are just names in the news to me. People die all the time and there are not enough hours in the day to mourn all of them. Not trying to come off cold and heartless, but the reality is deaths are reported in the news every morning before I leave for work... and I don't reflect on any of them for one moment because I have no personal connection to them.

yes, you have made your general too cool for school, apathy to the human condition clear...

so you don't care whether people you don't know are murdered or not...

but you care enough to stir the pot on a mssg board with people you don't know...

maybe you shouldn't be handing out "life coach advice"... if people follow it and end up dead, you aren't going to care anyways because it isn't your problem.

* this would be the basis of a good twilight zone... your coworker reads this thread, thinks, yeah, violence is the best way to deal with bullying, and brings a gun just in case, the fight escalates, shots are fired, you are mortally wounded in the crossfire... as you contemplate your fate, you think to yourself, maybe the world i advocated and in some small way contributed to with my thoughts and attitiudes, is not such a great one to actually live in.

Geez, isn't that what WE ARE ALL DOING?

Sorry to dumb down all of these thoughtful, literary masterpieces.

 

[Bob Magaw]

Most players are going to at least privately have the opinion that Martin handled this terribly and while Incognito may have gone above and beyond in being a d'bag, they'd side with him if they were being honest. There may be a few exceptions but any player publicly backing Martin would be doing so solely for the purpose of protecting their own image. Going forward i think Martin is going to have trouble where ever he goes where as Incognito will be fine. The only people who have a problem with Incognito are the media and "fans" who've never played the game and even those people really don't have a problem they just like to share their pretend opinions because they want to come off a certain way. The amount of attention this has gotten shows how far we've fallen as a society. People pretend to want blood and then once this simmers down it'll be on to the next thing to fake complain about.

This is where I think some of you are way off base. Wrong is wrong, no matter the context. Sometimes it takes a person refusing to sit in the back of the bus to wake people up and take notice.

You don't really care about this. You just want everyone to know you're a principled person. Everyone behind the scenes directly involved with this is doing a forehead slap and saying "c'mon, martin". But because of the media and people like you we have to have commence with a charade that involves press conferences and people losing their livelihoods. You'll get your blood and then on to the next. Maybe something like the Price is Right giving 5% less good prizes to Latino contestants? That's wrong!!! You will pay Drew Carey!!

all of this line of thinking is a corallary that only people who see things like you on this issue have genuine feelings...

if different, they must be wrong and fake...

other people have been accused of the below, but isn't that what you are doing?

Self-righteousness (also called sanctimoniousness, sententiousness, and holier-than-thou attitudes[1]) is a feeling or display of (usually smug) moral superiority[2] derived from a sense that one's beliefs, actions, or affiliations are of greater virtue than those of the average person.

 

[Bob Magaw]

-7) What would you think about Martin if he shot Incognito?

I wouldn't care. In all honesty, these guys are just names in the news to me. People die all the time and there are not enough hours in the day to mourn all of them. Not trying to come off cold and heartless, but the reality is deaths are reported in the news every morning before I leave for work... and I don't reflect on any of them for one moment because I have no personal connection to them.

yes, you have made your general too cool for school, apathy to the human condition clear...

so you don't care whether people you don't know are murdered or not...

but you care enough to stir the pot on a mssg board with people you don't know...

maybe you shouldn't be handing out "life coach advice"... if people follow it and end up dead, you aren't going to care anyways because it isn't your problem.

* this would be the basis of a good twilight zone... your coworker reads this thread, thinks, yeah, violence is the best way to deal with bullying, and brings a gun just in case, the fight escalates, shots are fired, you are mortally wounded in the crossfire... as you contemplate your fate, you think to yourself, maybe the world i advocated and in some small way contributed to with my thoughts and attitiudes, is not such a great one to actually live in.

Geez, isn't that what WE ARE ALL DOING?

Sorry to dumb down all of these thoughtful, literary masterpieces.

i stand corrected...

stating it isn't a good idea to murder people at work is "stirring the pot"...

you are right, i took an extremely controversial, iconoclastic, untenable stance with that one.

 

[JAMES!]

Most players are going to at least privately have the opinion that Martin handled this terribly and while Incognito may have gone above and beyond in being a d'bag, they'd side with him if they were being honest. There may be a few exceptions but any player publicly backing Martin would be doing so solely for the purpose of protecting their own image. Going forward i think Martin is going to have trouble where ever he goes where as Incognito will be fine. The only people who have a problem with Incognito are the media and "fans" who've never played the game and even those people really don't have a problem they just like to share their pretend opinions because they want to come off a certain way. The amount of attention this has gotten shows how far we've fallen as a society. People pretend to want blood and then once this simmers down it'll be on to the next thing to fake complain about.

This is where I think some of you are way off base. Wrong is wrong, no matter the context. Sometimes it takes a person refusing to sit in the back of the bus to wake people up and take notice.

You don't really care about this. You just want everyone to know you're a principled person. Everyone behind the scenes directly involved with this is doing a forehead slap and saying "c'mon, martin". But because of the media and people like you we have to have commence with a charade that involves press conferences and people losing their livelihoods. You'll get your blood and then on to the next. Maybe something like the Price is Right giving 5% less good prizes to Latino contestants? That's wrong!!! You will pay Drew Carey!!

all of this line of thinking is a corallary that only people who see things like you on this issue have genuine feelings...

if different, they must be wrong and fake...

other people have been accused of the below, but isn't that what you are doing?

Self-righteousness (also called sanctimoniousness, sententiousness, and holier-than-thou attitudes[1]) is a feeling or display of (usually smug) moral superiority[2] derived from a sense that one's beliefs, actions, or affiliations are of greater virtue than those of the average person.

Sure. Anything else?

 

[JuniorNB]

Which probably holds true for everything else you have said in this thread (and means we shouldn't take any of that seriously either).

Correct.

This whole thread is a fart in the wind. Guys puff up and try to blow this crap into a reflection on society, when it's just about a guy that simply quit. Martin didn't like the environment he was in... so he left.

Simply quit? I guess we'll have to wait and see about that. Seems to me that he was subjected to a very hostile work environment where one of his supposed friends and fellow lineman was a roid-raged idiot constantly threatening him. Of course, you would have handled it the old-fashioned way. Because you're crazy tough.

 

[Bob Magaw]

its just a bit odd to cognizantly, with self-awareness and unironically, to self-righteously label other self-righteous...

i'm not saying your opinions are fake...

just that you aren't a mind reader, you don't know what other people are thinking...

labeling other people fake isn't making your case stronger, were you under the impression it adds to it?

 

[RBM]

Which probably holds true for everything else you have said in this thread (and means we shouldn't take any of that seriously either).

Correct.

This whole thread is a fart in the wind. Guys puff up and try to blow this crap into a reflection on society, when it's just about a guy that simply quit. Martin didn't like the environment he was in... so he left.

Simply quit? I guess we'll have to wait and see about that. Seems to me that he was subjected to a very hostile work environment where one of his supposed friends and fellow lineman was a roid-raged idiot constantly threatening him. Of course, you would have handled it the old-fashioned way. Because you're crazy tough.

Very hostile work environment? Based on one vm? Can we just go off what we know and not what we're making up?

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Hate to break it to you Bob, but you're guilty of this also.

Yes but he is morally superior to most in here

I haven't agreed with his posts to this point in the thread but Bob is good people and he has had some epic posts breaking down situations. Let's give him a little latitude.

 

[JAMES!]

its just a bit odd to cognizantly, with self-awareness and unironically, to self-righteously label other self-righteous...

i'm not saying your opinions are fake...

just that you aren't a mind reader, you don't know what other people are thinking...

labeling other people fake isn't making your case stronger, were you under the impression it adds to it?

I was labeling the outrage fake. Faux outrage is all the rage these days. What else?

 

[MoveToSkypager]

So what about when Adam Beasley reports that a young defensive player is broke because of this financial hazing? Not a big deal?

 

[Norman Paperman]

So what about when Adam Beasley reports that a young defensive player is broke because of this financial hazing? Not a big deal?

I'd like to know more facts before commenting on a nameless player who seemingly made a series of bad financial decisions if he is broke.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

I think James! is on to something about faux outrage by some.

LeBatard and Mike Golic squared off today, wish I had the radio clip, sure it must be around somewhere. Golic blamed Martin...now he din't say it like that but anyone who says "Martin should have punched Incognito in the face" well that's blaming Martin but they can't do that because how do you bash a guy who DID CHECK HIMSELF into a hospital for treatment without looking like a major d-bag?

I wanted to apologize to Skyscraper because about 15 pages back we tangled over psychologist/facility, Martin 100% checked himself in. Now how long did he stay there, was it strategic, I can't answer those questions because we don't know.

There are a lot of people in the media and also in current NFL locker rooms, and those who used to be in NFL locker rooms who are using the "he should have fought back" as a way to mask them blaming Martin.

Try and sift thru what the media is feeding you because they say one thing when they really are meaning something else.

 

[Neofight]

Good sleuthing MoP!

 

[ChuckLiddell]

So what about when Adam Beasley reports that a young defensive player is broke because of this financial hazing? Not a big deal?

How much did he get hazed for? Six figures? A lot of families live off of $50K salaries without "going broke". Even at rookie minimum, I have trouble believing that anyone went broke from financial hazing (a term I had never even heard of until someone made it up this week). These guys get paid thousands of dollars to show up a shopping center or car show to sign autographs. I personally was part of a promotion that paid a kick returner $2,000 to sign autographs for 2 hours. Even at rookie minimum, there are other ways to make money. Unless someone was hazed for six figures, I call BS.

I would like to understand more about this situation before I pass judgment. Do you have a link?

 

[CalBear]

Which probably holds true for everything else you have said in this thread (and means we shouldn't take any of that seriously either).

Correct.

This whole thread is a fart in the wind. Guys puff up and try to blow this crap into a reflection on society, when it's just about a guy that simply quit. Martin didn't like the environment he was in... so he left.

Simply quit? I guess we'll have to wait and see about that. Seems to me that he was subjected to a very hostile work environment where one of his supposed friends and fellow lineman was a roid-raged idiot constantly threatening him. Of course, you would have handled it the old-fashioned way. Because you're crazy tough.

Very hostile work environment? Based on one vm? Can we just go off what we know and not what we're making up?

I think the "one voicemail" angle is a lot more made up than the "hostile work environment" angle, given that there were several months between the voicemail and the departure from the team.

 

[Bob Magaw]

Only 2 things are different about this story because many folks in the media and NFL teams have said this runs rampant but 2 things happened here that have never happened before.

1. Martin fled the scene...or left however you want to say it.

2. Details Details Details were leaked like no tomorrow. The cell phone call, text messages, racial epitaphs, etc...those details were strategically put out there on the internet.

hey MoP,

1) fled one way to characterize it. not wanting to be murdered and have family assaulted maybe another. latter may seem far fetched, but imo post-hernandez possible triple homicide case, death threats may have a different complexion and tenor than before... also ask yourself, is it POSSIBLE, a reasonable person might think incognito has a crew loose for reals, and could be capable of some kind of reprisal down the road to "get even"... by putting it out there, it may well make future issues less likely (incognito isn't on team anymore, so mission accomplished there)...

I don't disagree with your thinking here. I agree that with the Hernandez thing, Pouncey starting to turn thug as much as Incognito to the normal person, Martin could have feared for his life and justifiably so.

2) it sounds like there were media reports that team AND league officials saw/heard evidence of racial slurs and death threats... so the "leaks could have come from Martin's camp, team or league... by more or less challenging Martin and reporters like schefter that they were slanderous accusations (is it slander to accuse a reporter of slander when they are telling the truth, when accurate reporting is sort of their livlihood?), and ratcheting up the defiance, this may have led to a situation where schefter was highly motivated to find sources, and/or martin was in a position of having to clear HIS name as quickly as possible, and not let accusations by incognito that everything was a lie go unchecked... it would be adding insult to injury to not only harrass, extort and threaten somebody... but than accuse them of slander.

Incognito told him to bring it and Schefter brought it and then some.

it sounds like you concurred here, MoP...

did i misinterpret you?

 

[Bob Magaw]

its just a bit odd to cognizantly, with self-awareness and unironically, to self-righteously label other self-righteous...

i'm not saying your opinions are fake...

just that you aren't a mind reader, you don't know what other people are thinking...

labeling other people fake isn't making your case stronger, were you under the impression it adds to it?

I was labeling the outrage fake. Faux outrage is all the rage these days. What else?

so if it is from others, it is outrage... and fake...

but your take is calm, cool, composed, detached... and real...

got it.

what else?

 

[MoveToSkypager]

I wanted to apologize to Skyscraper because about 15 pages back we tangled over psychologist/facility, Martin 100% checked himself in. Now how long did he stay there, was it strategic, I can't answer those questions because we don't know.

No apology needed. I don't carry grudges and I don't have an ego.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Good sleuthing MoP!

TYVM Neo, really appreciate that. let me go ahead and post Brandon Marshall's thoughts on the matter, I thought they were interesting.

Chicago Tribune article...

By Dan Wiederer, Tribune reporter1:54 p.m. CST, November 6, 2013

Bears receiver Brandon Marshall has stayed up to speed with the details of the bullying controversy engulfing the Miami Dolphins, his former team, and issued a call for change Wednesday.

Dolphins offensive lineman Jonathan Martin left the team last week after saying he was frequently harassed by guard Richie Incognito, who has been suspended indefinitely.

Marshall was a Dolphins receiver during the 2010 and 2011 seasons and still counts Incognito as an acquaintance with whom he periodically communicated. But Marshall said Wednesday at Halas Hall that he’s sensitive and sympathetic to the feelings Martin has had that prompted his departure from the team.

“My prayers definitely are for him,” Marshall said. “It’s a serious situation. ... I wish him the best and hopefully he’s getting the care that he needs.”

Marshall spoke at length on the issue Wednesday and said he still did not know enough about what all had been said and done by Incognito to warrant his punishment. Marshall said he enjoyed playing with Incognito but has been taken aback by the allegations of things that Incognito did to Martin, including harassing text and voice messages that included racial slurs.

“I also know it’s not an isolated incident,” Marshall said. “It’s unfortunately the culture of the NFL.”

Marshall said it’s different with the Bears, where younger players are asked to “earn their stripes” but not treated disrespectfully.

“We look at rookies different,” he said. “You have to earn your stripes, earn your place on the team, earn your place in the NFL. But as far as crossing that line? Disrespecting guys? Demeaning guys? That just doesn’t happen here. Actually, Coach (Marc) Trestman did a great job of really going out of his way to make everyone feel comfortable from Day One.”

Marshall remains aware of how sensitive an issue this has become.

“Look at it from this standpoint,” Marshall said. “Take a little boy and a little girl. A little boy falls down and the first thing we say as parents is ‘Get up, shake it off. You’ll be OK. Don’t cry.’ A little girl falls down, what do we say? ‘It’s going to be OK.’ We validate their feelings. So right there from that moment, we’re teaching our men to mask their feelings, to not show their emotions. And it’s that times 100 with football players. You can’t show that your hurt, can’t show any pain. So for a guy to come into the locker room and he shows a little vulnerability, that’s a problem.

"That’s what I mean by the culture of the NFL. And that’s what we have to change. So what’s going on in Miami goes on in every locker room. But it’s time for us to start talking. Maybe have some group sessions where guys sit down and maybe talk about what’s going on off the field or what’s going on in the building and not mask everything. Because the (longer) it goes untreated, the worse it gets.”

dwiederer@tribune.com

Twitter @danwiederer
I found that part pretty common as folks chime in about this from the NFL.

 

[JAMES!]

its just a bit odd to cognizantly, with self-awareness and unironically, to self-righteously label other self-righteous...

i'm not saying your opinions are fake...

just that you aren't a mind reader, you don't know what other people are thinking...

labeling other people fake isn't making your case stronger, were you under the impression it adds to it?

I was labeling the outrage fake. Faux outrage is all the rage these days. What else?

so if it is from others, it is outrage... and fake...

but your take is calm, cool, composed, detached... and real...

got it.

what else?

I'm outraged over the outrage. Anyway...

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Only 2 things are different about this story because many folks in the media and NFL teams have said this runs rampant but 2 things happened here that have never happened before.

1. Martin fled the scene...or left however you want to say it.

2. Details Details Details were leaked like no tomorrow. The cell phone call, text messages, racial epitaphs, etc...those details were strategically put out there on the internet.

hey MoP,

1) fled one way to characterize it. not wanting to be murdered and have family assaulted maybe another. latter may seem far fetched, but imo post-hernandez possible triple homicide case, death threats may have a different complexion and tenor than before... also ask yourself, is it POSSIBLE, a reasonable person might think incognito has a crew loose for reals, and could be capable of some kind of reprisal down the road to "get even"... by putting it out there, it may well make future issues less likely (incognito isn't on team anymore, so mission accomplished there)...

I don't disagree with your thinking here. I agree that with the Hernandez thing, Pouncey starting to turn thug as much as Incognito to the normal person, Martin could have feared for his life and justifiably so.

2) it sounds like there were media reports that team AND league officials saw/heard evidence of racial slurs and death threats... so the "leaks could have come from Martin's camp, team or league... by more or less challenging Martin and reporters like schefter that they were slanderous accusations (is it slander to accuse a reporter of slander when they are telling the truth, when accurate reporting is sort of their livlihood?), and ratcheting up the defiance, this may have led to a situation where schefter was highly motivated to find sources, and/or martin was in a position of having to clear HIS name as quickly as possible, and not let accusations by incognito that everything was a lie go unchecked... it would be adding insult to injury to not only harrass, extort and threaten somebody... but than accuse them of slander.

Incognito told him to bring it and Schefter brought it and then some.

it sounds like you concurred here, MoP...

did i misinterpret you?

U R right there but I haven't agree with everything you posted, shocking right?

 

[The Duff Man]

My take, based upon the information that we have today:

Incognito had good intentions, and horrendously bad execution.

His intentions were to take a player who was not practicing or playing to his potential, and try to maximize his talent to help the football team. A young, unproven player like Martin, who was drafted in the second round and being counted on to protect the blindside of a franchise quarterback on a team with playoff aspirations should have been present at "voluntary" workouts if he was a team player, and was in fact trying to maximize his own potential. If proven vets like Pouncey and Incognito himself could find the time to attend, then so should the unproven 2nd year player who was going to start at the lines most crucial position. I find it to be a safe assumption (yet still just an assumption) that the team wanted him there, and the OL's ambassador either took it upon himself, or was advised to try to get him into camp.

This is where the bad execution comes into play. The most damning evidence that anything out of the ordinary took place here is in the texts and voicemails that we have all read transcripts of. Again, I am assuming that this was Incognito's efforts to motivate Martin to get into camp, not to "bully" him. Arguable that he was bullying him to get to camp to get better to help the team...but I am personally OK with that type of bullying. The language and terms that were used may or may not be OK in a locker room environment, but this was outside of the locker room. And because he took it out of the locker room, it may cost him his career.

I have a feeling, based upon my opinions that I am just as entitled to as anyone else, that Incognito is guilty of being a jackass more than a bully. My opinion based upon what I have seen so far is that while he may have the talent, Martin does not have the necessary demeanor to play in the NFL, and is yet another in a long line of botched early draft picks by this regime - only this may be the one that finally takes them down.

I personally have very little issue with the $15K, and the lunchroom pranks. From what others around the NFL are saying, it happens in nearly every locker room. The fact that Martin reportedly pulled the same prank on a fellow OL the previous week completely nullifies it in my opinion. If he can dish it out, he needs to be able to take it.

Probably the best post in this entire thread, imo. Completely fair and rational and non judgemental.

Nice job Chuck

I am coming around to this line of thinking also. Which seems more likely?

1. Miami let a 2nd round pick get bullied to the point of leaving the team or was too stupid to see what was going on?

2. A player with RUMORED mental problems and suicide attempts left the team due to his problems. Afterward he needs a reason, has the vmail saved, and voila, chronic bullying that has been going on forntwo seasons.

Where are the other examples if this is a two year situation? Why was he so friendly with Richie, driving to games together? The whole thing seems off.

No doubt Richie is guilty of being a jackass, I am not sure if he is guilty of more.

 

[KCitons]

its just a bit odd to cognizantly, with self-awareness and unironically, to self-righteously label other self-righteous...

i'm not saying your opinions are fake...

just that you aren't a mind reader, you don't know what other people are thinking...

labeling other people fake isn't making your case stronger, were you under the impression it adds to it?

I was labeling the outrage fake. Faux outrage is all the rage these days. What else?

so if it is from others, it is outrage... and fake...

but your take is calm, cool, composed, detached... and real...

got it.

what else?

I'm faux outraged over the outrage. Anyway...

fixed