Dolphin Players bullied Jonathan Martin, Richie Incognito SUSPENDED (2 Viewers)

[KCitons]

from a former Dolphin OL:

I want that to be very clear. I played offensive tackle for the Miami Dolphins from 2009 until the 2012 preseason, when I was released after tearing ligaments in my foot and injuring my back, both requiring surgery. I have since retired, and I’m happily working in the auto industry and living outside of Miami. I went to college at Nebraska with Richie Incognito, and I consider myself friends with him and Jonathan Martin, but I don’t speak with them regularly and I’m not taking sides. I’m only interested in the truth, which is what I’m going to share, from my own experiences and from conversations with friends still on the team.

Martin was expected to play left tackle beside Incognito at guard from the start, so Incognito took him under his wing. They were close friends by all apperances. Martin had a tendency to tank when things would get difficult in practice, and Incognito would lift him up. He’d say, there’s always tomorrow. Richie has been more kind to Martin than any other player.

In other situations, when Martin wasn’t showing effort, Richie would give him a lot of crap. He was a leader on the team, and he would get in your face if you were unprepared or playing poorly. The crap he would give Martin was no more than he gave anyone else, including me. Other players said the same things Incognito said to Martin, so you’d need to suspend the whole team if you suspend Incognito.

Every year, as tradition, the offensive line goes on a big Vegas trip. Everything is paid for in advance, from hotels to a private jet to show tickets. Martin originally verbally committed to the trip, then later backed out after everything was booked. Now, if you can’t go because of an emergency then it’s okay, but to say you’re going and then decide you don’t want to spend the money later? Everything was paid for, and then when it was time to pay up he didn’t want to go anymore. You don’t do that to your brothers. The veterans who paid for it, including Incognito and others, asked for Martin’s share, and he gave it to them. End of story.

The most unfortunate thing about this situation is the consequence it will have on the careers of both men. Richie’s marked himself now as a racist and a bigot, and unfortunately that could be the end of it. Martin is on the opposite end of the spectrum, but no more likely than Incognito to return to the NFL if he wants. In going to the media with his problem, Martin broke the code, and it shows that he’s not there for his teammates and he’s not standing up for himself. There might be a team that gives him a chance because he’s a good person, but the players will reject him. They’ll think, If I say one thing he’s going to the press. He’ll never earn the respect of teammates and personnel in the NFL because he didn’t take care of business the right way.

What fans should understand is that every day in the NFL there are battles between players worse than what’s being portrayed. This racial slur would be a blip on the radar if everything that happens in the locker room went public. But all over the league, problems are hashed out in house. Either you talk about it or you get physical. But at the end of the day, you handle it indoors.

This looks good - I agree with everything except the impact on Incognito. He's still got gas in the tank & he'll play again.

Haven't had a chance to figure out who this is. But, I'm not sure about the timeline. If he was released in the preseason of 2012, he would have had minimal time with Martin. Martin was a 2012 draft pick and depending on when he signed his contract, this player may have only had a couple of weeks to observe Incognito and Martin together. He also may be talking about the first days of hazing. It's obvious that he wasn't there in the spring of this year to know what is going on in the Dolphins organization.

He's not anonymous. Click the link.

Yeah, I missed the link. Found it elsewhere. It's Lydon Murtha. Have no reason to doubt what he is saying. Just the amount of time he's spent around Martin.

 

[fantasycurse42]

from a former Dolphin OL:

I want that to be very clear. I played offensive tackle for the Miami Dolphins from 2009 until the 2012 preseason, when I was released after tearing ligaments in my foot and injuring my back, both requiring surgery. I have since retired, and I’m happily working in the auto industry and living outside of Miami. I went to college at Nebraska with Richie Incognito, and I consider myself friends with him and Jonathan Martin, but I don’t speak with them regularly and I’m not taking sides. I’m only interested in the truth, which is what I’m going to share, from my own experiences and from conversations with friends still on the team.

Martin was expected to play left tackle beside Incognito at guard from the start, so Incognito took him under his wing. They were close friends by all apperances. Martin had a tendency to tank when things would get difficult in practice, and Incognito would lift him up. He’d say, there’s always tomorrow. Richie has been more kind to Martin than any other player.

In other situations, when Martin wasn’t showing effort, Richie would give him a lot of crap. He was a leader on the team, and he would get in your face if you were unprepared or playing poorly. The crap he would give Martin was no more than he gave anyone else, including me. Other players said the same things Incognito said to Martin, so you’d need to suspend the whole team if you suspend Incognito.

Every year, as tradition, the offensive line goes on a big Vegas trip. Everything is paid for in advance, from hotels to a private jet to show tickets. Martin originally verbally committed to the trip, then later backed out after everything was booked. Now, if you can’t go because of an emergency then it’s okay, but to say you’re going and then decide you don’t want to spend the money later? Everything was paid for, and then when it was time to pay up he didn’t want to go anymore. You don’t do that to your brothers. The veterans who paid for it, including Incognito and others, asked for Martin’s share, and he gave it to them. End of story.

The most unfortunate thing about this situation is the consequence it will have on the careers of both men. Richie’s marked himself now as a racist and a bigot, and unfortunately that could be the end of it. Martin is on the opposite end of the spectrum, but no more likely than Incognito to return to the NFL if he wants. In going to the media with his problem, Martin broke the code, and it shows that he’s not there for his teammates and he’s not standing up for himself. There might be a team that gives him a chance because he’s a good person, but the players will reject him. They’ll think, If I say one thing he’s going to the press. He’ll never earn the respect of teammates and personnel in the NFL because he didn’t take care of business the right way.

What fans should understand is that every day in the NFL there are battles between players worse than what’s being portrayed. This racial slur would be a blip on the radar if everything that happens in the locker room went public. But all over the league, problems are hashed out in house. Either you talk about it or you get physical. But at the end of the day, you handle it indoors.

This looks good - I agree with everything except the impact on Incognito. He's still got gas in the tank & he'll play again.

Haven't had a chance to figure out who this is. But, I'm not sure about the timeline. If he was released in the preseason of 2012, he would have had minimal time with Martin. Martin was a 2012 draft pick and depending on when he signed his contract, this player may have only had a couple of weeks to observe Incognito and Martin together. He also may be talking about the first days of hazing. It's obvious that he wasn't there in the spring of this year to know what is going on in the Dolphins organization.

He's not anonymous. Click the link.

Yeah, I missed the link. Found it elsewhere. It's Lydon Murtha. Have no reason to doubt what he is saying. Just the amount of time he's spent around Martin.

Martin is done... No GM in the NFL will touch this guy. He's poison in the locker room and his talent doesn't warrant the risk.

As Dodds noted, Miami is F'd - they're going to get beaten down by the press & Goodell.

It looks as if the wheels are in motion for this to be the outcome, but who knows what else might come out.

 

[Phenix]

from a former Dolphin OL:

I want that to be very clear. I played offensive tackle for the Miami Dolphins from 2009 until the 2012 preseason, when I was released after tearing ligaments in my foot and injuring my back, both requiring surgery. I have since retired, and I’m happily working in the auto industry and living outside of Miami. I went to college at Nebraska with Richie Incognito, and I consider myself friends with him and Jonathan Martin, but I don’t speak with them regularly and I’m not taking sides. I’m only interested in the truth, which is what I’m going to share, from my own experiences and from conversations with friends still on the team.

Martin was expected to play left tackle beside Incognito at guard from the start, so Incognito took him under his wing. They were close friends by all apperances. Martin had a tendency to tank when things would get difficult in practice, and Incognito would lift him up. He’d say, there’s always tomorrow. Richie has been more kind to Martin than any other player.

In other situations, when Martin wasn’t showing effort, Richie would give him a lot of crap. He was a leader on the team, and he would get in your face if you were unprepared or playing poorly. The crap he would give Martin was no more than he gave anyone else, including me. Other players said the same things Incognito said to Martin, so you’d need to suspend the whole team if you suspend Incognito.

Every year, as tradition, the offensive line goes on a big Vegas trip. Everything is paid for in advance, from hotels to a private jet to show tickets. Martin originally verbally committed to the trip, then later backed out after everything was booked. Now, if you can’t go because of an emergency then it’s okay, but to say you’re going and then decide you don’t want to spend the money later? Everything was paid for, and then when it was time to pay up he didn’t want to go anymore. You don’t do that to your brothers. The veterans who paid for it, including Incognito and others, asked for Martin’s share, and he gave it to them. End of story.

The most unfortunate thing about this situation is the consequence it will have on the careers of both men. Richie’s marked himself now as a racist and a bigot, and unfortunately that could be the end of it. Martin is on the opposite end of the spectrum, but no more likely than Incognito to return to the NFL if he wants. In going to the media with his problem, Martin broke the code, and it shows that he’s not there for his teammates and he’s not standing up for himself. There might be a team that gives him a chance because he’s a good person, but the players will reject him. They’ll think, If I say one thing he’s going to the press. He’ll never earn the respect of teammates and personnel in the NFL because he didn’t take care of business the right way.

What fans should understand is that every day in the NFL there are battles between players worse than what’s being portrayed. This racial slur would be a blip on the radar if everything that happens in the locker room went public. But all over the league, problems are hashed out in house. Either you talk about it or you get physical. But at the end of the day, you handle it indoors.

This looks good - I agree with everything except the impact on Incognito. He's still got gas in the tank & he'll play again.

Haven't had a chance to figure out who this is. But, I'm not sure about the timeline. If he was released in the preseason of 2012, he would have had minimal time with Martin. Martin was a 2012 draft pick and depending on when he signed his contract, this player may have only had a couple of weeks to observe Incognito and Martin together. He also may be talking about the first days of hazing. It's obvious that he wasn't there in the spring of this year to know what is going on in the Dolphins organization.

He's not anonymous. Click the link.

Yeah, I missed the link. Found it elsewhere. It's Lydon Murtha. Have no reason to doubt what he is saying. Just the amount of time he's spent around Martin.

Martin is done... No GM in the NFL will touch this guy. He's poison in the locker room and his talent doesn't warrant the risk.

As Dodds noted, Miami is F'd - they're going to get beaten down by the press & Goodell.

It looks as if the wheels are in motion for this to be the outcome, but who knows what else might come out.

Funny, the guy getting mistreated is the cancer. lol

Society sucks!

 

[KCitons]

Interesting article on Bears locker room

And an incident from 2005 season involving Kreutz and another OL.

 

[VaTerp]

The more that comes out I think the root of the problem has clearly shifted from Incognito to Martin. Incognito took things a little too far but he was clearly trying to motivate his teamate, and doing so at the request of the coaches.

I have no idea what's going on in Martin's head but he clearly has some issues. It seems to me like an emotionally unstable guy just snapped under the pressures of playing in the NFL. And Incognito becomes the easy scapegoat because of some misguided motivational tactics and his past history. Throw in the term "bullying" and the use of the n-word and Martin now has a perfect storm to cover the fact that whatever mental/emotional issues he has are making it difficult for him to be a professional football player and endure everything that entails.

My tune has definitely shifted but I never felt comfortable with the term bullying or the portrayal of Martin as a completely innocent victim here. And as more comes out I have to say I think Incognito, who I already had a very negative image of, is getting a raw deal here. If I had to bet money right now I'd say when the dust settles Incognito plays again and Martin does not.

 

[MoveToSkypager]

from a former Dolphin OL:

I want that to be very clear. I played offensive tackle for the Miami Dolphins from 2009 until the 2012 preseason, when I was released after tearing ligaments in my foot and injuring my back, both requiring surgery. I have since retired, and I’m happily working in the auto industry and living outside of Miami. I went to college at Nebraska with Richie Incognito, and I consider myself friends with him and Jonathan Martin, but I don’t speak with them regularly and I’m not taking sides. I’m only interested in the truth, which is what I’m going to share, from my own experiences and from conversations with friends still on the team.

Martin was expected to play left tackle beside Incognito at guard from the start, so Incognito took him under his wing. They were close friends by all apperances. Martin had a tendency to tank when things would get difficult in practice, and Incognito would lift him up. He’d say, there’s always tomorrow. Richie has been more kind to Martin than any other player.

In other situations, when Martin wasn’t showing effort, Richie would give him a lot of crap. He was a leader on the team, and he would get in your face if you were unprepared or playing poorly. The crap he would give Martin was no more than he gave anyone else, including me. Other players said the same things Incognito said to Martin, so you’d need to suspend the whole team if you suspend Incognito.

Every year, as tradition, the offensive line goes on a big Vegas trip. Everything is paid for in advance, from hotels to a private jet to show tickets. Martin originally verbally committed to the trip, then later backed out after everything was booked. Now, if you can’t go because of an emergency then it’s okay, but to say you’re going and then decide you don’t want to spend the money later? Everything was paid for, and then when it was time to pay up he didn’t want to go anymore. You don’t do that to your brothers. The veterans who paid for it, including Incognito and others, asked for Martin’s share, and he gave it to them. End of story.

The most unfortunate thing about this situation is the consequence it will have on the careers of both men. Richie’s marked himself now as a racist and a bigot, and unfortunately that could be the end of it. Martin is on the opposite end of the spectrum, but no more likely than Incognito to return to the NFL if he wants. In going to the media with his problem, Martin broke the code, and it shows that he’s not there for his teammates and he’s not standing up for himself. There might be a team that gives him a chance because he’s a good person, but the players will reject him. They’ll think, If I say one thing he’s going to the press. He’ll never earn the respect of teammates and personnel in the NFL because he didn’t take care of business the right way.

What fans should understand is that every day in the NFL there are battles between players worse than what’s being portrayed. This racial slur would be a blip on the radar if everything that happens in the locker room went public. But all over the league, problems are hashed out in house. Either you talk about it or you get physical. But at the end of the day, you handle it indoors.

This looks good - I agree with everything except the impact on Incognito. He's still got gas in the tank & he'll play again.

Haven't had a chance to figure out who this is. But, I'm not sure about the timeline. If he was released in the preseason of 2012, he would have had minimal time with Martin. Martin was a 2012 draft pick and depending on when he signed his contract, this player may have only had a couple of weeks to observe Incognito and Martin together. He also may be talking about the first days of hazing. It's obvious that he wasn't there in the spring of this year to know what is going on in the Dolphins organization.

Lydon Murtha was cut at the end of August. He got 4 of the 19 month of the Martin-Incognito relationship. He also stated that Martin was drafted to be the LT "from the start". Nope.

(Aug 2012)

I guess I'll add that it was clear Incognito was his closest friend while on the Dolphins and now he's a used car dealer.

 

[fantasycurse42]

from a former Dolphin OL:

I want that to be very clear. I played offensive tackle for the Miami Dolphins from 2009 until the 2012 preseason, when I was released after tearing ligaments in my foot and injuring my back, both requiring surgery. I have since retired, and I’m happily working in the auto industry and living outside of Miami. I went to college at Nebraska with Richie Incognito, and I consider myself friends with him and Jonathan Martin, but I don’t speak with them regularly and I’m not taking sides. I’m only interested in the truth, which is what I’m going to share, from my own experiences and from conversations with friends still on the team.

Martin was expected to play left tackle beside Incognito at guard from the start, so Incognito took him under his wing. They were close friends by all apperances. Martin had a tendency to tank when things would get difficult in practice, and Incognito would lift him up. He’d say, there’s always tomorrow. Richie has been more kind to Martin than any other player.

In other situations, when Martin wasn’t showing effort, Richie would give him a lot of crap. He was a leader on the team, and he would get in your face if you were unprepared or playing poorly. The crap he would give Martin was no more than he gave anyone else, including me. Other players said the same things Incognito said to Martin, so you’d need to suspend the whole team if you suspend Incognito.

Every year, as tradition, the offensive line goes on a big Vegas trip. Everything is paid for in advance, from hotels to a private jet to show tickets. Martin originally verbally committed to the trip, then later backed out after everything was booked. Now, if you can’t go because of an emergency then it’s okay, but to say you’re going and then decide you don’t want to spend the money later? Everything was paid for, and then when it was time to pay up he didn’t want to go anymore. You don’t do that to your brothers. The veterans who paid for it, including Incognito and others, asked for Martin’s share, and he gave it to them. End of story.

The most unfortunate thing about this situation is the consequence it will have on the careers of both men. Richie’s marked himself now as a racist and a bigot, and unfortunately that could be the end of it. Martin is on the opposite end of the spectrum, but no more likely than Incognito to return to the NFL if he wants. In going to the media with his problem, Martin broke the code, and it shows that he’s not there for his teammates and he’s not standing up for himself. There might be a team that gives him a chance because he’s a good person, but the players will reject him. They’ll think, If I say one thing he’s going to the press. He’ll never earn the respect of teammates and personnel in the NFL because he didn’t take care of business the right way.

What fans should understand is that every day in the NFL there are battles between players worse than what’s being portrayed. This racial slur would be a blip on the radar if everything that happens in the locker room went public. But all over the league, problems are hashed out in house. Either you talk about it or you get physical. But at the end of the day, you handle it indoors.

This looks good - I agree with everything except the impact on Incognito. He's still got gas in the tank & he'll play again.

Haven't had a chance to figure out who this is. But, I'm not sure about the timeline. If he was released in the preseason of 2012, he would have had minimal time with Martin. Martin was a 2012 draft pick and depending on when he signed his contract, this player may have only had a couple of weeks to observe Incognito and Martin together. He also may be talking about the first days of hazing. It's obvious that he wasn't there in the spring of this year to know what is going on in the Dolphins organization.

Lydon Murtha was cut at the end of August. He got 4 of the 19 month of the Martin-Incognito relationship. He also stated that Martin was drafted to be the LT "from the start". Nope.

Yup, Murtha has no credibility here. Spot on!

 

[Bigboy10182000]

Yeah, I missed the link. Found it elsewhere. It's Lydon Murtha. Have no reason to doubt what he is saying. Just the amount of time he's spent around Martin.Martin is done... No GM in the NFL will touch this guy. He's poison in the locker room and his talent doesn't warrant the risk.

As Dodds noted, Miami is F'd - they're going to get beaten down by the press & Goodell.

It looks as if the wheels are in motion for this to be the outcome, but who knows what else might come out.

Funny, the guy getting mistreated is the cancer. lol

Society sucks!

I disagree that Miami will be "F'd". From everything thats been made public it would appears as if everything was fine on MIami and Richie's end

Phenix, stop.

 

[Hang 10]

The more that comes out I think the root of the problem has clearly shifted from Incognito to Martin. Incognito took things a little too far but he was clearly trying to motivate his teamate, and doing so at the request of the coaches.

I have no idea what's going on in Martin's head but he clearly has some issues. It seems to me like an emotionally unstable guy just snapped under the pressures of playing in the NFL. And Incognito becomes the easy scapegoat because of some misguided motivational tactics and his past history. Throw in the term "bullying" and the use of the n-word and Martin now has a perfect storm to cover the fact that whatever mental/emotional issues he has are making it difficult for him to be a professional football player and endure everything that entails.

My tune has definitely shifted but I never felt comfortable with the term bullying or the portrayal of Martin as a completely innocent victim here. And as more comes out I have to say I think Incognito, who I already had a very negative image of, is getting a raw deal here. If I had to bet money right now I'd say when the dust settles Incognito plays again and Martin does not.

 

[RBM]

Martin is on the opposite end of the spectrum, but no more likely than Incognito to return to the NFL if he wants. In going to the media with his problem, Martin broke the code, and it shows that he’s not there for his teammates and he’s not standing up for himself. There might be a team that gives him a chance because he’s a good person, but the players will reject him. They’ll think, If I say one thing he’s going to the press. He’ll never earn the respect of teammates and personnel in the NFL because he didn’t take care of business the right way.

This was my take from 2 days ago and I was raked over the coals by many over it.

 

[fantasycurse42]

Yeah, I missed the link. Found it elsewhere. It's Lydon Murtha. Have no reason to doubt what he is saying. Just the amount of time he's spent around Martin.Martin is done... No GM in the NFL will touch this guy. He's poison in the locker room and his talent doesn't warrant the risk.

As Dodds noted, Miami is F'd - they're going to get beaten down by the press & Goodell.

It looks as if the wheels are in motion for this to be the outcome, but who knows what else might come out.

Funny, the guy getting mistreated is the cancer. lol

Society sucks!

I disagree that Miami will be "F'd". From everything thats been made public it would appears as if everything was fine on MIami and Richie's end

Phenix, stop.

They are going to get F'd for stuff that happens in every locker room - Hazing, expensive trips, all the typical stuff that happens, unfortunately a light will be shined on this organization and the press will make a big deal and Goodell being a #### will punish them. Maybe, maybe not.

 

[Norman Paperman]

I am curious - for those that think the Miami locker room was out of control, particularly with Incognito in a leadership role, what is the basis for that conclusion?

Because, from where I am sitting, I have not seen any evidence to support that claim, other than Martin's walking away from the team because he could not handle something.

I don't think we have a handle on exactly what Martin had to handle in the locker room. Most of the other evidence we have seen suggests that Martin did not face undue hazing or bullying. That evidence may be as equally biased as Martin's, but with conflicting views, I am not sure how we can determine the truth so definitively. Why give Martin the benefit of the doubt here, over every other teammate?

I am on record as saying, in the overall context of this situation, I don't find the voicemail to be sufficiently outrageous to shock the conscience - not in light of the backing Incognito has received from black teammates. He sounds like a meathead, but not a racist, and apparently nothing was said in that voicemail that a reasonable person who knows/knew Incognito would take seriously.

 

[Bigboy10182000]

Yeah, I missed the link. Found it elsewhere. It's Lydon Murtha. Have no reason to doubt what he is saying. Just the amount of time he's spent around Martin.Martin is done... No GM in the NFL will touch this guy. He's poison in the locker room and his talent doesn't warrant the risk.

As Dodds noted, Miami is F'd - they're going to get beaten down by the press & Goodell.

It looks as if the wheels are in motion for this to be the outcome, but who knows what else might come out.

Funny, the guy getting mistreated is the cancer. lol

Society sucks!

I disagree that Miami will be "F'd". From everything thats been made public it would appears as if everything was fine on MIami and Richie's end

Phenix, stop.

They are going to get F'd for stuff that happens in every locker room - Hazing, expensive trips, all the typical stuff that happens, unfortunately a light will be shined on this organization and the press will make a big deal and Goodell being a #### will punish them. Maybe, maybe not.

I think all they have to do is give the perception that they did something. Just like the concussion issues.

 

[Quez]

After all the support for Incognito I think public opinion is shifting in his favor. Is it too late to get an Incognito jersey?

 

[Hang 10]

Yeah, I missed the link. Found it elsewhere. It's Lydon Murtha. Have no reason to doubt what he is saying. Just the amount of time he's spent around Martin.Martin is done... No GM in the NFL will touch this guy. He's poison in the locker room and his talent doesn't warrant the risk.

As Dodds noted, Miami is F'd - they're going to get beaten down by the press & Goodell.

It looks as if the wheels are in motion for this to be the outcome, but who knows what else might come out.

Funny, the guy getting mistreated is the cancer. lol

Society sucks!

I disagree that Miami will be "F'd". From everything thats been made public it would appears as if everything was fine on MIami and Richie's end

Phenix, stop.

They are going to get F'd for stuff that happens in every locker room - Hazing, expensive trips, all the typical stuff that happens, unfortunately a light will be shined on this organization and the press will make a big deal and Goodell being a #### will punish them. Maybe, maybe not.

I think all they have to do is give the perception that they did something. Just like the concussion issues.

This is Goodell we're talking about. When your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. He only cares about being perceived as tough on whatever the cause of the day is...today it's bullying and the dolphins are about to get bent over.

 

[fantasycurse42]

Yeah, I missed the link. Found it elsewhere. It's Lydon Murtha. Have no reason to doubt what he is saying. Just the amount of time he's spent around Martin.Martin is done... No GM in the NFL will touch this guy. He's poison in the locker room and his talent doesn't warrant the risk.

As Dodds noted, Miami is F'd - they're going to get beaten down by the press & Goodell.

It looks as if the wheels are in motion for this to be the outcome, but who knows what else might come out.

Funny, the guy getting mistreated is the cancer. lol

Society sucks!

I disagree that Miami will be "F'd". From everything thats been made public it would appears as if everything was fine on MIami and Richie's end

Phenix, stop.

They are going to get F'd for stuff that happens in every locker room - Hazing, expensive trips, all the typical stuff that happens, unfortunately a light will be shined on this organization and the press will make a big deal and Goodell being a #### will punish them. Maybe, maybe not.

I think all they have to do is give the perception that they did something. Just like the concussion issues.

This is Goodell we're talking about. When your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. He only cares about being perceived as tough on whatever the cause of the day is...today it's bullying and the dolphins are about to get bent over.

When your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. Amazing!!!!

The irony is that Goodell is the ultimate bully!

 

[Sammy3469]

I am curious - for those that think the Miami locker room was out of control, particularly with Incognito in a leadership role, what is the basis for that conclusion?

Because, from where I am sitting, I have not seen any evidence to support that claim, other than Martin's walking away from the team because he could not handle something.

I don't think we have a handle on exactly what Martin had to handle in the locker room. Most of the other evidence we have seen suggests that Martin did not face undue hazing or bullying. That evidence may be as equally biased as Martin's, but with conflicting views, I am not sure how we can determine the truth so definitively. Why give Martin the benefit of the doubt here, over every other teammate?

I am on record as saying, in the overall context of this situation, I don't find the voicemail to be sufficiently outrageous to shock the conscience - not in light of the backing Incognito has received from black teammates. He sounds like a meathead, but not a racist, and apparently nothing was said in that voicemail that a reasonable person who knows/knew Incognito would take seriously.

Well considering the locker room is a workspace, any hazing or bullying is undue.

 

[Steve Tasker]

The guys trying to discredit that Murtha story do understand that he says right at the start that some of his "intel" is gathered from conversations with friends who are still on the team, right?

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

If Martin talked to Incognito and told him to stop, then went to the Dolphins and no one did anything what is Martin supposed to do?

The whole intent of the 'hostile workplace' laws are to keep people who aren't like the other people in a workplace culture from being abused or harrassed. The NFL is not exempt from those laws -- it's just that Martin is the first one to challenge them.

Martin may well have other problems and he may not be a sympathetic character, but if he was being harrassed in a way that breaks the law and he went to his bosses to get relief the Dolphins are legally required to provide it.

"Not fitting into the culture" is exactly the same excuse people have made to not hire blacks, women, gays, Jews, etc for centuries.

 

[Tango]

"This is Goodell we're talking about. When your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. He only cares about being perceived as tough on whatever the cause of the day is...today it's bullying and the dolphins are about to get bent over."

Goodell is absurdly apologetic about anything that is politically incorrect in football. The whole Rush Limbaugh thing tipped it off for me. I'm no Rush fan (it could have been Bill Maher for all I care) but his bending over to the PC crowd over that kind of stupidity gave the PC crowd license to run over him in any/all ways they could think of.

Maybe that incident was more emblematic than actual cause/effect; but it sticks out to me as the tipping point where I started worrying about the league and the commish's ability to protect the league while dealing with adversity.

 

[Bigboy10182000]

Yeah, I missed the link. Found it elsewhere. It's Lydon Murtha. Have no reason to doubt what he is saying. Just the amount of time he's spent around Martin.Martin is done... No GM in the NFL will touch this guy. He's poison in the locker room and his talent doesn't warrant the risk.

As Dodds noted, Miami is F'd - they're going to get beaten down by the press & Goodell.

It looks as if the wheels are in motion for this to be the outcome, but who knows what else might come out.

Funny, the guy getting mistreated is the cancer. lol

Society sucks!

I disagree that Miami will be "F'd". From everything thats been made public it would appears as if everything was fine on MIami and Richie's end

Phenix, stop.

They are going to get F'd for stuff that happens in every locker room - Hazing, expensive trips, all the typical stuff that happens, unfortunately a light will be shined on this organization and the press will make a big deal and Goodell being a #### will punish them. Maybe, maybe not.

I think all they have to do is give the perception that they did something. Just like the concussion issues.

This is Goodell we're talking about. When your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. He only cares about being perceived as tough on whatever the cause of the day is...today it's bullying and the dolphins are about to get bent over.

With what info would he make this decision though? He'd obviously interview players and coaches and from everything they've said the situation was fine. I don't see this as the issue with the Saints (not saying you are saying that) where players and coaches knew of this or were caught in lies.

As it stands today I wouldnt be shocked to see Richie reinstated soon and nothing come of this with the league. Unless there's a big piece we're missing.

 

[VaTerp]

I am curious - for those that think the Miami locker room was out of control, particularly with Incognito in a leadership role, what is the basis for that conclusion?

Because, from where I am sitting, I have not seen any evidence to support that claim, other than Martin's walking away from the team because he could not handle something.

I don't think we have a handle on exactly what Martin had to handle in the locker room. Most of the other evidence we have seen suggests that Martin did not face undue hazing or bullying. That evidence may be as equally biased as Martin's, but with conflicting views, I am not sure how we can determine the truth so definitively. Why give Martin the benefit of the doubt here, over every other teammate?

I am on record as saying, in the overall context of this situation, I don't find the voicemail to be sufficiently outrageous to shock the conscience - not in light of the backing Incognito has received from black teammates. He sounds like a meathead, but not a racist, and apparently nothing was said in that voicemail that a reasonable person who knows/knew Incognito would take seriously.

I agree and would like to see an answer to that. If I was a Miami fan I wouldnt mind seeing Philbin and Ireland go but if it's over this, based on what I've seen that would be pure B.S.

And as far as the voicemail goes I'll say that as a black man the use of certain terms in and of themselves does not bother me. Its all about context and more importantly intent. Based on what I heard Cris Carter say this morning after talking to several Dolphins players, the video of Incognito at the bar with Mike Pouncey, and my own experiences playing sports with black and white teamates I have no problem with the voicemail.

 

[Bigboy10182000]

If Martin talked to Incognito and told him to stop, then went to the Dolphins and no one did anything what is Martin supposed to do?

The whole intent of the 'hostile workplace' laws are to keep people who aren't like the other people in a workplace culture from being abused or harrassed. The NFL is not exempt from those laws -- it's just that Martin is the first one to challenge them.

Martin may well have other problems and he may not be a sympathetic character, but if he was being harrassed in a way that breaks the law and he went to his bosses to get relief the Dolphins are legally required to provide it.

"Not fitting into the culture" is exactly the same excuse people have made to not hire blacks, women, gays, Jews, etc for centuries.

But Martin did fit into the culture and was a part of it for probably around 20 years

 

[MoveToSkypager]

The guys trying to discredit that Murtha story do understand that he says right at the start that some of his "intel" is gathered from conversations with friends who are still on the team, right?

Not exactly. He said it's from his own experiences and from conversations. Mixing them can give the idea to the reader that it's possible anything he says could have been his own experience. If you were including me in the discreditor group, I was merely trying to frame his POV a bit better than the article did. The above statements were from my own experiences and from conversations with other people on this planet.

 

[Norman Paperman]

I am curious - for those that think the Miami locker room was out of control, particularly with Incognito in a leadership role, what is the basis for that conclusion?

Because, from where I am sitting, I have not seen any evidence to support that claim, other than Martin's walking away from the team because he could not handle something.

I don't think we have a handle on exactly what Martin had to handle in the locker room. Most of the other evidence we have seen suggests that Martin did not face undue hazing or bullying. That evidence may be as equally biased as Martin's, but with conflicting views, I am not sure how we can determine the truth so definitively. Why give Martin the benefit of the doubt here, over every other teammate?

I am on record as saying, in the overall context of this situation, I don't find the voicemail to be sufficiently outrageous to shock the conscience - not in light of the backing Incognito has received from black teammates. He sounds like a meathead, but not a racist, and apparently nothing was said in that voicemail that a reasonable person who knows/knew Incognito would take seriously.

Well considering the locker room is a workspace, any hazing or bullying is undue.

Thats not true. But, in any event, what evidence is there of any bullying in the workspace?

If a teammate gets in your face like a drill sergeant when you mess up - is that bullying? Where do you draw that line for an NFL team, and what evidence is there in this case that anyone crossed that line in the workspace?

It may exist, but I don't think we have seen any evidence to support the claim that the Dolphins were out of control. Even the "extortion" claim for the trip to Vegas looks a lot different now...

 

[fbelange]

C'mon, you don't think Martin has some sissy in him? You think he handled this well?

So you either get in a physical altercation or you're a sissy?

Wooooo dude....you have to read my posts. I said "I'm not saying throw down with the maniac..."I mean none of us know how Martin tried to handle this previously, but start at standing up for yourself and telling the big dope "hey I'm here to play football, leave me out of your bull####". Or, if you're so terrified of the guy being dangerous like some others are suggesting (which I think is ridiculous), how about knocking on your coaches door, or general managers door?

If the guys first defense was to run home to mommy and daddy, then I don't care what any of you think, imo he's a sissy. A sissy that I do feel bad for, but a sissy nonetheless.

do you know he didn't go to the coaches... is the first instinct that martin is guilty until proven innocent, and sort the facts out later?

I'm just going off what I've seen and heard and read.

understood.impotant aspects of the case have only broken In the last 12 hours.

details are still emerging.

does it seem unreasonable to wait for more information before passing judgement on and name calling martin?

This doesn't go both ways?

Others are being irresponsible for not calling him a sissy when we don't know what happened?is that your point?

No. Incognito and Pouncey getting destroyed in here you're ok with?For the record I'm all for it. I have no problems name calling everyone involved at this point.

this was the post i was thinking of, early on, in which you seemed to imply being hypocritical...

did i misinterpret this?

all i said, AT THIS POINT, was maybe wait for more information to come in before impugning martin's character, and drawing the hard conclusion he handled it like a wussy...

i wasn't using loaded, disrespectful terms like bending, twisting...

after somebody first went on a rant about fake indignation, i did use the term self-righteous...

and you chimed in (paraphrasing)... "yeah, you are, too!" again, implying being hypocritical...

not all over the place. on point.

the difference is, i didn't accuse the poster of being fake, and question their very ability to offer a valid opinion at a fundamental level...

if he said fake and i replied by saying he is fake.. that would be hypocritical.

in several instances, you have said incognito sounds like a bad guy...

in at least one earlier exchange, i said something along those lines (affirming i think incognito sounds like a bad guy), not talking about martin at all, and you again responded with a... "well, obviously your mind is made up!" you said he was a bad guy... i echoed that sentiment (possibly in exchange with somebody else before your response)... but my mind was made up...

when in one of the first exchanges we had, i never said martin is categorically innocent and couldn't possibly be wrong... even if unintentional, that is a misrepresentation of my position... while i may think some people were wrongly impugning martin's character and seemed to be crucifying him as wussy prematurely (your stance was before more info came out from locker room, though even that may miss the mark about racism in some cases), that is not the same as my being unable to later, with more information, state that maybe he does share some culpability...

if you look at your first sentence in last of the nested series of exchange quotes above...

you take me to task for being OK that incognito is being "destroyed" in the thread...

but as you have said, you have consistently, from the beginning, been careful to note incognito is a bad guy...

were you "destroying" incognito? was that an instance of what you are complaining that i shouldn't have allowed...

this is the kind of thing i mean by being inconsistent... please note... not fake, bent, twisted... but inconsistent... and seemingly wrong, to take somebody to task for allowing him to be trashed... than trashing him?

in the last sentence of the above quotes, you convey the determination to name call martin (you have been consistent and true to your word here) because others are doing to it to incognito (neglecting to mention you have done it to incognito)... if others don't name call martin, they have already made up their minds, they are bent and twisted... you can't consider the possibility that they may have some real questions and concerns about organizational pathologies such as institutional bullying.*

* psychology/sociology experiments like the milgram experiment and stanford (or berkeley?) "guard/prisoner" experiments are relevant to the issue of how individuals in group settings might do crazy, even evil things they would not do as individuals, not in groups.

 

[fantasycurse42]

The guys trying to discredit that Murtha story do understand that he says right at the start that some of his "intel" is gathered from conversations with friends who are still on the team, right?

A former lineman on the team, with friends on the team, who spent time with both.

His comments are about as credible as you can get

 

[Native]

The irony here is that the national media has already chosen a narrative and is running with it. There are two paraellel, but completely different stories being circulated.

Story 1: Being circulated by National Media (including CNN's front page from this morning)


1. Incognito was hazing and bullying Martin

2. Incognito Extorted $15K from him

3. Incognito threatened Martin's Family

4. Incognito threatened to kill Martin

5. Incognito racially abused Martin

6 Opposing NFL Players cant stand Incognito
Story 2: Still developing

1. Incognito and Martin were good friends

2. Martin hazed players himself

3. Teammates all like Richie and support him to a man

4. Black and white teammates all agree that Incognito is not a racist even if he used a slur

5. The Voicemail was a joke and even Martin was joking about it in the locker room

6. The $15K was agreed upon in advance

7. This "type" of thing (NOT extortion and Death threats but vile language, pranks and expensive Vegas trips) happen in every locker room

 

[MoveToSkypager]

It may exist, but I don't think we have seen any evidence to support the claim that the Dolphins were out of control. Even the "extortion" claim for the trip to Vegas looks a lot different now...

No it doesn't.

 

[Hang 10]

Yeah, I missed the link. Found it elsewhere. It's Lydon Murtha. Have no reason to doubt what he is saying. Just the amount of time he's spent around Martin.Martin is done... No GM in the NFL will touch this guy. He's poison in the locker room and his talent doesn't warrant the risk.

As Dodds noted, Miami is F'd - they're going to get beaten down by the press & Goodell.

It looks as if the wheels are in motion for this to be the outcome, but who knows what else might come out.

Funny, the guy getting mistreated is the cancer. lol

Society sucks!

I disagree that Miami will be "F'd". From everything thats been made public it would appears as if everything was fine on MIami and Richie's end

Phenix, stop.

They are going to get F'd for stuff that happens in every locker room - Hazing, expensive trips, all the typical stuff that happens, unfortunately a light will be shined on this organization and the press will make a big deal and Goodell being a #### will punish them. Maybe, maybe not.

I think all they have to do is give the perception that they did something. Just like the concussion issues.

This is Goodell we're talking about. When your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. He only cares about being perceived as tough on whatever the cause of the day is...today it's bullying and the dolphins are about to get bent over.

With what info would he make this decision though? He'd obviously interview players and coaches and from everything they've said the situation was fine. I don't see this as the issue with the Saints (not saying you are saying that) where players and coaches knew of this or were caught in lies.

As it stands today I wouldnt be shocked to see Richie reinstated soon and nothing come of this with the league. Unless there's a big piece we're missing.

The media has already set the narrative to this story. It's going to be hard to prove there wasn't bullying to the pro-Martin crowd. So Goodell will do what he always does and give the public it's pound of flesh.

Also, I'm saying Incognito doesn't get reinstated at some point.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

If Martin talked to Incognito and told him to stop, then went to the Dolphins and no one did anything what is Martin supposed to do?

The whole intent of the 'hostile workplace' laws are to keep people who aren't like the other people in a workplace culture from being abused or harrassed. The NFL is not exempt from those laws -- it's just that Martin is the first one to challenge them.

Martin may well have other problems and he may not be a sympathetic character, but if he was being harrassed in a way that breaks the law and he went to his bosses to get relief the Dolphins are legally required to provide it.

"Not fitting into the culture" is exactly the same excuse people have made to not hire blacks, women, gays, Jews, etc for centuries.

But Martin did fit into the culture and was a part of it for probably around 20 years

Well, maybe. But I don't think so. It seems likely that he's a little bit different than a lot of players in the NFL. Or that he has some issues.

If the Dolphins were on him about not finishing blocks or giving up too much ground to pass rushers or whatever -- anything performance based -- they'd be fine. But to orchestrate harrassment trying to make him "tougher" is probably going to get them in trouble.

 

[VaTerp]

I am curious - for those that think the Miami locker room was out of control, particularly with Incognito in a leadership role, what is the basis for that conclusion?

Because, from where I am sitting, I have not seen any evidence to support that claim, other than Martin's walking away from the team because he could not handle something.

I don't think we have a handle on exactly what Martin had to handle in the locker room. Most of the other evidence we have seen suggests that Martin did not face undue hazing or bullying. That evidence may be as equally biased as Martin's, but with conflicting views, I am not sure how we can determine the truth so definitively. Why give Martin the benefit of the doubt here, over every other teammate?

I am on record as saying, in the overall context of this situation, I don't find the voicemail to be sufficiently outrageous to shock the conscience - not in light of the backing Incognito has received from black teammates. He sounds like a meathead, but not a racist, and apparently nothing was said in that voicemail that a reasonable person who knows/knew Incognito would take seriously.

Well considering the locker room is a workspace, any hazing or bullying is undue.

Well, what constitutes hazing and bullying?

It has been LONG practiced in various sports (and other things) at mutliple levels for there to be some rights of passage. Having rookies do things like carry pads, pick up a tab for dinner, and things like that can be a part of removing a sense of entitlement and humility in the process of team building. Obviously things can be taken too far but I don't see any evidence of that. And if it really bothers somebody they should stand up and say something. Dez Bryant did it to Roy Williams and it appears he got the better end of the deal.

And bullying? I'm still not comfortable with that term on a grown man. Workplace harassment would be a better term IMO. And while there is still stuff that could come out that would change my opinion, right now based on what I've read it sounds like what I said earlier. Incognito was trying to motivate Martin using language that I heard playing HS football. If Martin was not comfortable with it, he had many options to address it. The option he chose, IMO, looks like it was the easiest way out and has ulterior motives.

 

[Bankerguy]

Without picking sides...I'm already tired of this story and can't wait for it to go away.

 

[The Duff Man]

If Martin talked to Incognito and told him to stop, then went to the Dolphins and no one did anything what is Martin supposed to do?

The whole intent of the 'hostile workplace' laws are to keep people who aren't like the other people in a workplace culture from being abused or harrassed. The NFL is not exempt from those laws -- it's just that Martin is the first one to challenge them.

Martin may well have other problems and he may not be a sympathetic character, but if he was being harrassed in a way that breaks the law and he went to his bosses to get relief the Dolphins are legally required to provide it.

"Not fitting into the culture" is exactly the same excuse people have made to not hire blacks, women, gays, Jews, etc for centuries.

The only evidence of continued hazing brought forward is the "get up from the table" prank.

Is this enough for him to challenge the system? Legally....yes. And we all know that once we start saying "legally" we have left common sense at the door.

An industry exists that employs thousands of people, asking them to play a violent game and put their body through punishment few of us can fathom. This leads to a culture in the workplace few of us can relate to. One guy doesnt like this culture....and hey.....he has the law on his side so lets blow it up.

OR

He has mental problems and drug use issues and this is all a smoke screen after the fact to get paid.

 

[RBM]

I love the "per multiple league sources" line.

Which really most likely mean Adam Schefter and ESPN suits scrambling to regain control of their meme.

 

[Bob Magaw]

from the same article, it sounds like ireland and philbin could have some credibility issues about plausible deniability?

"Incognito was made a scapegoat for the hell coming down on the Dolphins organization, which in turn said it knew nothing about any so-called hazing. That’s the most outlandish lie of this whole thing. The coaches know everything. The coaches know who’s getting picked on and in many cases call for that player to be singled out. Any type of denial on that side is ridiculous. I have friends on more than a dozen teams, and it’s the same everywhere. What people want to call bullying is something that is never going away from football. This is a game of high testosterone, with men hammering their bodies on a daily basis. You are taught to be an aggressive person, and you typically do not make it to the NFL if you are a passive person. There are a few, but it’s very hard. Playing football is a man’s job, and if there’s any weak link, it gets weeded out. It’s the leaders’ job on the team to take care of it."

the article does ring true in many ways...

but this last paragraph doesn't pull any punches and insinuates the coaching staff knew what was going on, basically accusing them of collectively lying... he was cut, it might be natural to harbor some resentment (though he is happily working in the auto industry) and maybe even want to make those who cut him look bad (especially if he thinks he will never play again, and doesn't mind burning his bridges)?

he said he has no dog in the fight, but he does have the same alma mater as incognito (nebraska)... maybe he really doesn't...

he says incognito is a really good, kind man once you get to know him... but he is also called the dirtiest player in the league... and he keeps getting kicked off of teams? is he really misunderstood by every single team, or at some point do you have to say there is a pattern? there seems to be a disconnect... how can this happen if he is such a lovable guy that means well?

if it is an established part of the culture, it does seem like martin should cough up ONE dinner (10Kish)... current, and maybe more former players have confirmed this... but some have also said ONE time only (and martin was a second rounder, not a first like tannehill)... so is the vegas "tradition" common with other teams? did incognito ever have to pay, since he wasn't drafted by MIA?

was it schefter who threw out the 100K figure? now i'm not sure, other than i saw it, and not as complete hearsay unattached to any name at all, such as schefter...

what form could such extortion take or have? if true, did some vets say they would end the harrassment? were there threats vets had ins with the coaches and could see rookies careers stunted or even aborted?

antrell rolle said how could you pay if you don't want to... but everybody was a rookie and has to pay a dinner... beyond that, do some teams have a second dinner? a third dinner? perhaps some teams differ... maybe rolle was only asked to pay once... maybe if he had been asked to pay more and refused, vets would have made his life hell?

the extreme extortion angle did seem odd, but there were other reports of MIA veterans with financial problems using the rookies like ATMs... was that planted by martin and his agents? did schefter or somebody like him have other sources, and it is legit...

does MIA have some problem with institutional extortion other teams don't, and they took it to an extreme...

hopefully more will be uncovered on these questions during the independent investigation...

the author states he doesn't think incognito is racist (but also that he couldn't condone the use of the n word)... i tend to agree he doesn't think he is and maybe even isn't... but martin could have been offended...

 

[Norman Paperman]

It may exist, but I don't think we have seen any evidence to support the claim that the Dolphins were out of control. Even the "extortion" claim for the trip to Vegas looks a lot different now...

No it doesn't.

it does to me. If this was a trip that was booked and paid for in advance, and after he agreed to go, then I think paying his portion of the trip is reasonable.

I think the import from the original version of the story was Martin never intended to go to Vegas but had to pay for the veterans. Now it sounds like they all chipped in the same amount, and Martin wanted to back out later. That, in my mind, is an entirely different narrative.

The whole start to this story is now sounding much more contrived and lawyerish than when the onion is peeled.

 

[MoveToSkypager]

3. Teammates all like Richie and support him to a man

6. The $15K was agreed upon in advance

The others are cool, but these are poor. 3 is an example of selection bias to a fair degree. You are asking players if they support Incognito, and the ones that don't are not going to come forward, they'll just answer questions from the NFL. You didn't hear from a bunch of Jews in 1935 saying "Man, that Adolf Hitler is an #######".

The 15K was agreed upon in advance, so what? You saying that Incognito and others couldn't cover that? Incognito was making 5.5 million dollars this year. You think if a good friend decided to back out, a millionaire couldn't just cover his good friends end of the trip? Bull####.

 

[KCitons]

The guys trying to discredit that Murtha story do understand that he says right at the start that some of his "intel" is gathered from conversations with friends who are still on the team, right?

I get that. But then the same applies to Martin's agent talking to Ireland. They are both here say and should be taken as less than credible. Correct?

 

[The Duff Man]

For those that missed it earlier, here is a post which COULD be from Richie's father which COULD explain why Martin left the team.

http://deadspin.com/is-richie-incognitos-dad-blasting-jonathan-martin-on-m-1457997230

The guy sounds like a real peach.....but the main point is that Martin left due to his own issues and Incognito is the scapegoat.

All rumor and speculation of course....but isnt that what we use to form our opinions these days?

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

If a teammate gets in your face like a drill sergeant when you mess up - is that bullying? Where do you draw that line for an NFL team, and what evidence is there in this case that anyone crossed that line in the workspace?

There's no legal requirement for people to be nice. Bosses can be total SOBs without a problem.

But there are fairly well defined legal dos and don'ts -- and from the little that's been made public there's more than enough to suggest we're well into "don'ts" territory here. In other words, you draw the line for an NFL team exactly where you draw it for everyone else.

This has come up many many times before -- in coal mines, in sports media, in the military -- and it turns out that following the law doesn't ruin the workplace no matter how used to the existing culture people are.

 

[MoveToSkypager]

For those that missed it earlier, here is a post which COULD be from Richie's father which COULD explain why Martin left the team.

http://deadspin.com/is-richie-incognitos-dad-blasting-jonathan-martin-on-m-1457997230

The guy sounds like a real peach.....but the main point is that Martin left due to his own issues and Incognito is the scapegoat.

All rumor and speculation of course....but isnt that what we use to form our opinions these days?

Welcome to page 3.

 

[VaTerp]

3. Teammates all like Richie and support him to a man

6. The $15K was agreed upon in advance

The others are cool, but these are poor. 3 is an example of selection bias to a fair degree. You are asking players if they support Incognito, and the ones that don't are not going to come forward, they'll just answer questions from the NFL. You didn't hear from a bunch of Jews in 1935 saying "Man, that Adolf Hitler is an #######".

The 15K was agreed upon in advance, so what? You saying that Incognito and others couldn't cover that? Incognito was making 5.5 million dollars this year. You think if a good friend decided to back out, a millionaire couldn't just cover his good friends end of the trip? Bull####.

I get where you are trying to go but I'm sorry this is a horrible analogy. Incognito is now Hitler and his teamates are now persecuted Jews? RIDICULOUS comparison.

And you can debate whether or not Incognito or others should have picked up the tab for the trip. But if everything was agreed to in advance and Martin then backed out without a good reason then I'm fine with them still asking him to pay the share he already agreed to. And again as Antrel Rolle said Martin, even with whatever personal issues he has, is still a grown man. If he doesnt want to pay for something then don't do it. You cant go through life as an adult doing things you don't want to do and then claim you were bullied. That's ludicrous.

 

[fantasycurse42]

The guys trying to discredit that Murtha story do understand that he says right at the start that some of his "intel" is gathered from conversations with friends who are still on the team, right?

I get that. But then the same applies to Martin's agent talking to Ireland. They are both here say and should be taken as less than credible. Correct?

Murtha has nothing to gain for speaking his opinion as opposed to others involved.

 

[KCitons]

The guys trying to discredit that Murtha story do understand that he says right at the start that some of his "intel" is gathered from conversations with friends who are still on the team, right?

I get that. But then the same applies to Martin's agent talking to Ireland. They are both here say and should be taken as less than credible. Correct?

Murtha has nothing to gain for speaking his opinion as opposed to others involved.

then why did he say anything? Everyone should just shut up and wait for the NFL and the courts to get the answers under oath.

 

[Norman Paperman]

If a teammate gets in your face like a drill sergeant when you mess up - is that bullying? Where do you draw that line for an NFL team, and what evidence is there in this case that anyone crossed that line in the workspace?

There's no legal requirement for people to be nice. Bosses can be total SOBs without a problem.

But there are fairly well defined legal dos and don'ts -- and from the little that's been made public there's more than enough to suggest we're well into "don'ts" territory here. In other words, you draw the line for an NFL team exactly where you draw it for everyone else.

This has come up many many times before -- in coal mines, in sports media, in the military -- and it turns out that following the law doesn't ruin the workplace no matter how used to the existing culture people are.

Link?

I want to know what was done in the workplace, in this case, that crossed into the "don't" territory.

Serious question. The answer may very well be out there, I just have not seen it.

 

[MoveToSkypager]

3. Teammates all like Richie and support him to a man

6. The $15K was agreed upon in advance

The others are cool, but these are poor. 3 is an example of selection bias to a fair degree. You are asking players if they support Incognito, and the ones that don't are not going to come forward, they'll just answer questions from the NFL. You didn't hear from a bunch of Jews in 1935 saying "Man, that Adolf Hitler is an #######".

The 15K was agreed upon in advance, so what? You saying that Incognito and others couldn't cover that? Incognito was making 5.5 million dollars this year. You think if a good friend decided to back out, a millionaire couldn't just cover his good friends end of the trip? Bull####.

I get where you are trying to go but I'm sorry this is a horrible analogy. Incognito is now Hitler and his teamates are now persecuted Jews? RIDICULOUS comparison.

And you can debate whether or not Incognito or others should have picked up the tab for the trip. But if everything was agreed to in advance and Martin then backed out without a good reason then I'm fine with them still asking him to pay the share he already agreed to. And again as Antrel Rolle said Martin, even with whatever personal issues he has, is still a grown man. If he doesnt want to pay for something then don't do it. You cant go through life as an adult doing things you don't want to do and then claim you were bullied. That's ludicrous.

Yes, Martin is the Jews. Where does he spend a bunch of time? Camp, with fences. He is forced to shower too. This wasn't an analogy, it is the exact same thing.

 

[KCitons]

3. Teammates all like Richie and support him to a man

6. The $15K was agreed upon in advance

The others are cool, but these are poor. 3 is an example of selection bias to a fair degree. You are asking players if they support Incognito, and the ones that don't are not going to come forward, they'll just answer questions from the NFL. You didn't hear from a bunch of Jews in 1935 saying "Man, that Adolf Hitler is an #######".

The 15K was agreed upon in advance, so what? You saying that Incognito and others couldn't cover that? Incognito was making 5.5 million dollars this year. You think if a good friend decided to back out, a millionaire couldn't just cover his good friends end of the trip? Bull####.

I get where you are trying to go but I'm sorry this is a horrible analogy. Incognito is now Hitler and his teamates are now persecuted Jews? RIDICULOUS comparison.

And you can debate whether or not Incognito or others should have picked up the tab for the trip. But if everything was agreed to in advance and Martin then backed out without a good reason then I'm fine with them still asking him to pay the share he already agreed to. And again as Antrel Rolle said Martin, even with whatever personal issues he has, is still a grown man. If he doesnt want to pay for something then don't do it. You cant go through life as an adult doing things you don't want to do and then claim you were bullied. That's ludicrous.

Yes, Martin is the Jews. Where does he spend a bunch of time? Camp, with fences. He is forced to shower too. This wasn't an analogy, it is the exact same thing.

Did the Jews in 1935 try to go to Ireland?

 

[fantasycurse42]

The guys trying to discredit that Murtha story do understand that he says right at the start that some of his "intel" is gathered from conversations with friends who are still on the team, right?

I get that. But then the same applies to Martin's agent talking to Ireland. They are both here say and should be taken as less than credible. Correct?

Murtha has nothing to gain for speaking his opinion as opposed to others involved.

then why did he say anything? Everyone should just shut up and wait for the NFL and the courts to get the answers under oath.

He was just speaking his opinion... Same reason you post on this board.

He clearly doesn't have nearly as much at stake as anyone involved since he pretty much has no skin in this.

I'm giving him the nod as credible, that's just me.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

If a teammate gets in your face like a drill sergeant when you mess up - is that bullying? Where do you draw that line for an NFL team, and what evidence is there in this case that anyone crossed that line in the workspace?

There's no legal requirement for people to be nice. Bosses can be total SOBs without a problem.

But there are fairly well defined legal dos and don'ts -- and from the little that's been made public there's more than enough to suggest we're well into "don'ts" territory here. In other words, you draw the line for an NFL team exactly where you draw it for everyone else.

This has come up many many times before -- in coal mines, in sports media, in the military -- and it turns out that following the law doesn't ruin the workplace no matter how used to the existing culture people are.

Link?

I want to know what was done in the workplace, in this case, that crossed into the "don't" territory.

Serious question. The answer may very well be out there, I just have not seen it.

If Martin didn't want to be called n----- it's illegal to call him n-----.

And a CEO can't tell an employee who's coming to him about harrassment to go fight his harrasser.

It doesn't even matter if there's actual harrassment -- management is legally required to investigate. There are no circumstances where they're allowed to just ignore the claim.