Dolphin Players bullied Jonathan Martin, Richie Incognito SUSPENDED (2 Viewers)

[ChuckLiddell]

I was interested in reading a lot about it when the story first broke as I tried to wrap my head around it. But we still don't have any facts, and I'm not sure if or when we ever will.

1) Did the players cross a line with their harassment of Martin?

2) Did Martin legitimately get "bullied"?

3) Was Incognito the ringleader or just a scapegoat given his checkered past?

4) How much did the coaches and front office know?

Ultimately, I'm not sure we'll ever get much clarification on questions like these. Posters who have already made up their minds are able to take these unanswered questions to fit their narrative, and the discussion can't advance because we have no facts. There is no answer because none of us have any idea what truly happened and every person with knowledge of the situation (Martin's camp, Dolphins players, Dolphins staff, beat writers) has an agenda.

wake me when we have facts. But I'm not sure we will.

Absolutely true.

 

[ChuckLiddell]

Do people still care about this story?

Evidently. Why are some so concerned that others want to discuss this?

There are dozens, if not hundreds of threads in the FBG forum that I pay no attention to. That doesn't mean other people don't care.

It was a legitimate question. I haven't heard anything about this in the media about this in awhile now.

For what its worth, if I were not a Dolphins fan I don't think I would care too much. Seems like a non-story that someone turned into a story. At least as of now. As more info comes to light, this could become feature film material.

I think the story went from being widely reported due to the back and forth between Martin's camp and the Dolphins. Then you had the Incognito interview. Now, I believe the NFL has put both parties in a holding pattern as they gather facts.

I think as long as the NFL is working with Martin to find a desired solution, you won't hear anything else. If the NFL decides that Martin's claims have no basis, then you could see a formal lawsuit.

In the meantime, the decision on whether or not Incognito will rejoin the Dolphins was starting to play out. If Incognito is so innocent, why would he agree to allow the NFL to conclude it's investigation before a decision is made? I think people like Omar Kelly are of the belief that Martin is the only reason for Richie's suspension. Omar didn't know anything about the sexual assault at the golf course. So, there could easily be other things that he doesn't know about.

I'm not a dolphins fan. But still find the debate interesting.

Do we now this to be a fact? How do we know what Omar knows and does not know. Maybe he said it at some point. If so, please correct me. I could be absent some facts with regard to the breadth of Omar's knowledge.

 

[KCitons]

Do people still care about this story?

Evidently. Why are some so concerned that others want to discuss this?

There are dozens, if not hundreds of threads in the FBG forum that I pay no attention to. That doesn't mean other people don't care.

It was a legitimate question. I haven't heard anything about this in the media about this in awhile now.

For what its worth, if I were not a Dolphins fan I don't think I would care too much. Seems like a non-story that someone turned into a story. At least as of now. As more info comes to light, this could become feature film material.

I think the story went from being widely reported due to the back and forth between Martin's camp and the Dolphins. Then you had the Incognito interview. Now, I believe the NFL has put both parties in a holding pattern as they gather facts.

I think as long as the NFL is working with Martin to find a desired solution, you won't hear anything else. If the NFL decides that Martin's claims have no basis, then you could see a formal lawsuit.

In the meantime, the decision on whether or not Incognito will rejoin the Dolphins was starting to play out. If Incognito is so innocent, why would he agree to allow the NFL to conclude it's investigation before a decision is made? I think people like Omar Kelly are of the belief that Martin is the only reason for Richie's suspension. Omar didn't know anything about the sexual assault at the golf course. So, there could easily be other things that he doesn't know about.

I'm not a dolphins fan. But still find the debate interesting.

Do we now this to be a fact? How do we know what Omar knows and does not know. Maybe he said it at some point. If so, please correct me. I could be absent some facts with regard to the breadth of Omar's knowledge.

He either didn't know about it, which proves he's not "all knowing" just because he's the beat writer. Or he knew about it, which means he was hiding it, just like the Dolphins organization. If he can hide that, what else could he hide?

But, please Chuck, tell me how you see it.

 

[ChuckLiddell]

Do people still care about this story?

Evidently. Why are some so concerned that others want to discuss this?

There are dozens, if not hundreds of threads in the FBG forum that I pay no attention to. That doesn't mean other people don't care.

It was a legitimate question. I haven't heard anything about this in the media about this in awhile now.

For what its worth, if I were not a Dolphins fan I don't think I would care too much. Seems like a non-story that someone turned into a story. At least as of now. As more info comes to light, this could become feature film material.

I think the story went from being widely reported due to the back and forth between Martin's camp and the Dolphins. Then you had the Incognito interview. Now, I believe the NFL has put both parties in a holding pattern as they gather facts.

I think as long as the NFL is working with Martin to find a desired solution, you won't hear anything else. If the NFL decides that Martin's claims have no basis, then you could see a formal lawsuit.

In the meantime, the decision on whether or not Incognito will rejoin the Dolphins was starting to play out. If Incognito is so innocent, why would he agree to allow the NFL to conclude it's investigation before a decision is made? I think people like Omar Kelly are of the belief that Martin is the only reason for Richie's suspension. Omar didn't know anything about the sexual assault at the golf course. So, there could easily be other things that he doesn't know about.

I'm not a dolphins fan. But still find the debate interesting.

Do we now this to be a fact? How do we know what Omar knows and does not know. Maybe he said it at some point. If so, please correct me. I could be absent some facts with regard to the breadth of Omar's knowledge.

He either didn't know about it, which proves he's not "all knowing" just because he's the beat writer. Or he knew about it, which means he was hiding it, just like the Dolphins organization. If he can hide that, what else could he hide?

But, please Chuck, tell me how you see it.

That's a fair point.

I don't think he is "all knowing". I just think he knows a heck of a lot more than any of us do, so I personally value his opinion.

 

[fatness]

Do people still care about this story?

Evidently. Why are some so concerned that others want to discuss this?

There are dozens, if not hundreds of threads in the FBG forum that I pay no attention to. That doesn't mean other people don't care.

It was a legitimate question. I haven't heard anything about this in the media about this in awhile now.

There hasn't been much in the news about it. Some people have tied this closely to their view of the entire world, however, so they're pretty whacked out about it.

Look at one of the news articles posted above, somebody writing about the Dolphins needing to "give Incognito his life back". Nobody lost their life; one guy's suspended from his job, that's all. But it's life and death for some people.

Yeah...that's what he is saying in that article. Excellent comprehension skills. Way to put things into context. So un-surprising.

He said nothing of the sort in the article. Here it is, read it again. He says Incognito deserves his job back and "his life" back. Incognito's not dead, awaiting reanimation. You gonna ask for a link to that too?

 

[Todem]

Omar is a higly respected Dolphins beat writer and sports writer down here in South Florida. He has been wriitng in the Sun Sentinal for well of a decade and a half.

He knows a ton of stuff when it comes to the Dolphins and inside the locker room. Both he and Dave Hyde have been covering this team for well over 25 years combined.

Hyde is dead on and I think Incognito plays again for The Dolphins. If not he will be scooped up in a nano second. And if he is....I guess ohter NFL teams could care less what happened...or feel it was a ton of smoke and no fire.

Things will start to shake out sooner rather than later. I am eagerly awaiting some type of resolution to this. And the only reason I am so interested is because this involves my hometown team, is in the news every single freaking day down here on sports radio....it is hard to get away from. If this were any other team....I would not care one iota about any of it and just hear about it when i hear about it. But man being a Dolphins fan for over 30 years.....this is a potential black eye on the franchise and the greatness it has achieved with Shula the 70's teams and all the great and exciting Marino years. I hope it just get's resolved....and the Dolphins can move forward in a new direction. If it turns out to be nothing....Ireland and Philbin survive this. If serious findings emerge.....both are done.

I actually want both of them....shipped out. We need real leadership, a real GM he can actually draft and trade and a real HC with serious backbone and gameday strategy. This staff has been horrendous quite frankly and Ireland has been nothing short of a failure as a GM.

 

[ChuckLiddell]

Do people still care about this story?

Evidently. Why are some so concerned that others want to discuss this?

There are dozens, if not hundreds of threads in the FBG forum that I pay no attention to. That doesn't mean other people don't care.

It was a legitimate question. I haven't heard anything about this in the media about this in awhile now.

There hasn't been much in the news about it. Some people have tied this closely to their view of the entire world, however, so they're pretty whacked out about it.

Look at one of the news articles posted above, somebody writing about the Dolphins needing to "give Incognito his life back". Nobody lost their life; one guy's suspended from his job, that's all. But it's life and death for some people.

Yeah...that's what he is saying in that article. Excellent comprehension skills. Way to put things into context. So un-surprising.

He said nothing of the sort in the article. Here it is, read it again. He says Incognito deserves his job back and "his life" back. Incognito's not dead, awaiting reanimation. You gonna ask for a link to that too?

Yeah...I don't think he meant it literally as a reanimation to come back from the dead...but you are welcome to interpret it as you feel appropriate.

I thought at this point that nothing you could say could surprise me. I clearly was mistaken.

 

[Bob Magaw]

if we know about the golf course incident, i'm pretty sure the beat reporter would at least know of the allegations... maybe because an on the record witness is precluded (reportedly silenced with $30,000 hush money to not formally press charges), he has elected to not comment?

but other media have discussed it, so that somehow doesn't quite seem right...

the fact that in his most recent messages he doesn't mention that, or the other harrassment allegations by a non-player team employee (or the alleged physical assault of martin), makes me think one of a few things...

either he doesn't believe these reports... or he is not as disturbed as some are with the nature and pattern of incognito's actions...

if the latter, that is a moral judgement... i don't think beat reporters have any special status by which we should give their opinions (or conspicuous lack of opinions, in this case) greater weight, than say, the dalai lama?

because he has left the harrassment reports out, we can only guess what he would think about them... if a non-player team employee is not on a level playing field, what does it mean to "give it back"? should they crack jokes about the administrative staff all sleeping with incognito's mother (and how would THAT turn out - than richie would have a murder rap)? use an insulting caucasian reference? what about the golf event volunteer... i have to think the give it back reference wasn't intended in that context...

but it is a conspicuous absence to his periodic summations if he has turned a blind eye to them... imo, they are a key part of figuring out if there was a wider pattern of harrassment, abuse and assault... that is pretty much a gaping hole in his take, and almost makes it worthless as far as the penalty projection (not saying the other things he said that he did commment on are worthless... but what he left out is so important, it seems impossible to weigh what the likely outcome might be, with no weight on the counterbalance side, it could be a bogus reading)...

internally, who makes the call about incognito's return... if ross does, and he allows him back even though the other allegations are true, imo that would reflect poorly on him... during the presser, he gave the appearance of feeling deep regret about incognito's language and actions... to act like nothing happened by bringing him back doesn't seem consonant with his earlier outrage?

on the football side, it would still be disappointing, but i could kind of see it more, for some GMs and HCs to rationalize keeping him... "it was a couple of harrassment cases, maybe an assault, but richie is a fantastic blocker!" and if ireland is truly incompetent (and his reputation precedes him here, and some reports in this episode and fiasco put an exclamation point on it), maybe he compounds the mistake by allowing him back?

is it ireland's call, i think he has final say on personnel? maybe philbin gets input?

and is ireland even going to have a job in the offseason? if he is found incompetent in some ways (that shouldn't be too hard) and fired in january... why would ross allow him to have input, that would make no sense at all, when the personnel decision could have long term repercussions for the franchise (and which could possibly extend far beyond his tenure, if he is soon fired?)...

 

[Hilts]

Perhaps I've missed it, but most of the Martin supporters I've seen have readily admitted Martin may not be so innocent and/or we need more proof before definitively proclaiming any guilt/innocence.

However, based on the limited information we have thus far, early results seem rather damning towards Incognito and/or the Dolphins.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

I don't support Incognito coming back to the Miami Dolphins. If the evidence was strong enough to suspend him for 4 games than I'm sure Miami was justified. Now if there isn't any evidence and Ted Wells report comes back with not much meat in it or smoking gun…then we have much bigger problems in Miami.

Richie was the leadership guy on this team, he did a poor job of not understanding Martin. Even if Martin had soft skin and couldn't take jokes, you don't lay into him, you tell the coaches he's not qualified to be in the NFL and let them bench him or bring someone else in. Avoid the guy, don't include him in any reindeer games, that sends a message without bullying.

Incognito playing for Miami again this season would be a disaster right now.

I was shocked by Hyde's column in the Sun Sentinel and he usually is a conservative kind of guy vs Omar who I appreciate what he does but he(Omar) does not understand Xs and Os in the NFL despite what he professes. He does not like to be challenged on Twitter or any other media, he's lucky to have a forum to spew his opinions.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

I was interested in reading a lot about it when the story first broke as I tried to wrap my head around it. But we still don't have any facts, and I'm not sure if or when we ever will.

1) Did the players cross a line with their harassment of Martin?

2) Did Martin legitimately get "bullied"?

3) Was Incognito the ringleader or just a scapegoat given his checkered past?

4) How much did the coaches and front office know?

Ultimately, I'm not sure we'll ever get much clarification on questions like these. Posters who have already made up their minds are able to take these unanswered questions to fit their narrative, and the discussion can't advance because we have no facts. There is no answer because none of us have any idea what truly happened and every person with knowledge of the situation (Martin's camp, Dolphins players, Dolphins staff, beat writers) has an agenda.

wake me when we have facts. But I'm not sure we will.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

I actually want both of them....shipped out. We need real leadership, a real GM he can actually draft and trade and a real HC with serious backbone and gameday strategy. This staff has been horrendous quite frankly and Ireland has been nothing short of a failure as a GM.

This 100x over. I'm tired of excuses, it's time for results. Brady is aging, Belichick will retire eventually. This is a perfect time to start developing a team to rule this division just like when the Dolphins came out of the 70s, 80s, the Bills rules in the early to mid 90s, then the Pats came along in the 00s and haven't looked back. Time for real change and we can't waste another 3 years on Tannehill if he isn't the long term answer. We need a new GM and HC that work together. Philbin is not a good HC, I'm certain of it, Ireland is a frack'n joke. Flush them both and let's roll.

 

[Bob Magaw]

I don't support Incognito coming back to the Miami Dolphins. If the evidence was strong enough to suspend him for 4 games than I'm sure Miami was justified. Now if there isn't any evidence and Ted Wells report comes back with not much meat in it or smoking gun…then we have much bigger problems in Miami.

Richie was the leadership guy on this team, he did a poor job of not understanding Martin. Even if Martin had soft skin and couldn't take jokes, you don't lay into him, you tell the coaches he's not qualified to be in the NFL and let them bench him or bring someone else in. Avoid the guy, don't include him in any reindeer games, that sends a message without bullying.

Incognito playing for Miami again this season would be a disaster right now.

I was shocked by Hyde's column in the Sun Sentinel and he usually is a conservative kind of guy vs Omar who I appreciate what he does but he(Omar) does not understand Xs and Os in the NFL despite what he professes. He does not like to be challenged on Twitter or any other media, he's lucky to have a forum to spew his opinions.

outstanding post, MoP...

well conceived and expressed, imo...

 

[ChuckLiddell]

I am really uncertain about my position on reinstating Incognito, but leaning toward not. Although nobody really knows the extent of what happened on the golf course, I think Richie has run out of "benefit of the doubt" points, and I do see the fire behind that smoke.

ESPN is running a poll right now. So far only 214 votes, but 72% of respondents think he should be reinstated. Says a lot for how those 214 people view the bullying allegations IMO.

http://espn.go.com/blog/miami-dolphins/post/_/id/3345/poll-release-or-reinstate-richie-incognito

 

[Todem]

I would not be shocked to see Incognito play again. Despite his transgressions. This is also reeking of a cover up too LOL!!! By the Dolphins. But a cover up of what? it seems to me the media and court of public opinion has decided already.

The Dolphins knew Richie had this golf tourny issue.....and this alleged bullying stuff comes out.

Wow what a huge mess. Just a huge nightmare for the orgainization and Steve Ross.

 

[Todem]

I am really uncertain about my position on reinstating Incognito, but leaning toward not. Although nobody really knows the extent of what happened on the golf course, I think Richie has run out of "benefit of the doubt" points, and I do see the fire behind that smoke.

ESPN is running a poll right now. So far only 214 votes, but 72% of respondents think he should be reinstated. Says a lot for how those 214 people view the bullying allegations IMO.

http://espn.go.com/blog/miami-dolphins/post/_/id/3345/poll-release-or-reinstate-richie-incognito

If Richie did indeed physically abuse and/or be the ring leader of physical abuse to JM then he should have a lifetime ban from the NFL. If Well's reports come up with no proof of serious abuse and malcious bullying no question Incognito was thrown under the bus depsite his past transgresions and has a right to his entire guarnteed portion of his contract and no doubt IMO will be playing somewhere in the NFL.

 

[Bob Magaw]

I am really uncertain about my position on reinstating Incognito, but leaning toward not. Although nobody really knows the extent of what happened on the golf course, I think Richie has run out of "benefit of the doubt" points, and I do see the fire behind that smoke.

ESPN is running a poll right now. So far only 214 votes, but 72% of respondents think he should be reinstated. Says a lot for how those 214 people view the bullying allegations IMO.

http://espn.go.com/blog/miami-dolphins/post/_/id/3345/poll-release-or-reinstate-richie-incognito

it would be interesting what the numbers would be if everybody that responded had all the information we have in a pretty comprehensive thread... do they know about the other alleged incidents? if not, might be different?

 

[Neofight]

I am really uncertain about my position on reinstating Incognito, but leaning toward not. Although nobody really knows the extent of what happened on the golf course, I think Richie has run out of "benefit of the doubt" points, and I do see the fire behind that smoke.

ESPN is running a poll right now. So far only 214 votes, but 72% of respondents think he should be reinstated. Says a lot for how those 214 people view the bullying allegations IMO.

http://espn.go.com/blog/miami-dolphins/post/_/id/3345/poll-release-or-reinstate-richie-incognito

What does it say about how they view sexual harassment?

 

[msommer]

I am really uncertain about my position on reinstating Incognito, but leaning toward not. Although nobody really knows the extent of what happened on the golf course, I think Richie has run out of "benefit of the doubt" points, and I do see the fire behind that smoke.

ESPN is running a poll right now. So far only 214 votes, but 72% of respondents think he should be reinstated. Says a lot for how those 214 people view the bullying allegations IMO.

http://espn.go.com/blog/miami-dolphins/post/_/id/3345/poll-release-or-reinstate-richie-incognito

If Richie did indeed physically abuse and/or be the ring leader of physical abuse to JM then he should have a lifetime ban from the NFL. If Well's reports come up with no proof of serious abuse and malcious bullying no question Incognito was thrown under the bus depsite his past transgresions and has a right to his entire guarnteed portion of his contract and no doubt IMO will be playing somewhere in the NFL.

Incognito is UFA after this season. The only part of his contract money he is not getting is that which he was to earn during the suspension for conduct detrimental, and that might even be debatable

 

[ChuckLiddell]

I am really uncertain about my position on reinstating Incognito, but leaning toward not. Although nobody really knows the extent of what happened on the golf course, I think Richie has run out of "benefit of the doubt" points, and I do see the fire behind that smoke.

ESPN is running a poll right now. So far only 214 votes, but 72% of respondents think he should be reinstated. Says a lot for how those 214 people view the bullying allegations IMO.

http://espn.go.com/blog/miami-dolphins/post/_/id/3345/poll-release-or-reinstate-richie-incognito

it would be interesting what the numbers would be if everybody that responded had all the information we have in a pretty comprehensive thread... do they know about the other alleged incidents? if not, might be different?

Maybe. Those allegations are pretty prevalent out there though.

Also, he was not (as I understand things) suspended for the golf course incident. He was suspended for the bullying allegations. He somehow paid off (or the team did?) the victim of the golf course incident - an incident that we know very little detail about.

Is that your understanding as well?

 

[ChuckLiddell]

I am really uncertain about my position on reinstating Incognito, but leaning toward not. Although nobody really knows the extent of what happened on the golf course, I think Richie has run out of "benefit of the doubt" points, and I do see the fire behind that smoke.

ESPN is running a poll right now. So far only 214 votes, but 72% of respondents think he should be reinstated. Says a lot for how those 214 people view the bullying allegations IMO.

http://espn.go.com/blog/miami-dolphins/post/_/id/3345/poll-release-or-reinstate-richie-incognito

What does it say about how they view sexual harassment?

I don't know. It may say that since the public is not privy to those details and no charges were ever actually filed (correct?), that this information is not relevant to their view of the suspension.

 

[Neofight]

I am really uncertain about my position on reinstating Incognito, but leaning toward not. Although nobody really knows the extent of what happened on the golf course, I think Richie has run out of "benefit of the doubt" points, and I do see the fire behind that smoke.

ESPN is running a poll right now. So far only 214 votes, but 72% of respondents think he should be reinstated. Says a lot for how those 214 people view the bullying allegations IMO.

http://espn.go.com/blog/miami-dolphins/post/_/id/3345/poll-release-or-reinstate-richie-incognito

What does it say about how they view sexual harassment?

I don't know. It may say that since the public is not privy to those details and no charges were ever actually filed (correct?), that this information is not relevant to their view of the suspension.

Are you offering two possibilities or saying that since since no charges were filed the public is not privy, and therefore the information is not relevant to their viewpoint?

 

[Bob Magaw]

I am really uncertain about my position on reinstating Incognito, but leaning toward not. Although nobody really knows the extent of what happened on the golf course, I think Richie has run out of "benefit of the doubt" points, and I do see the fire behind that smoke.

ESPN is running a poll right now. So far only 214 votes, but 72% of respondents think he should be reinstated. Says a lot for how those 214 people view the bullying allegations IMO.

http://espn.go.com/blog/miami-dolphins/post/_/id/3345/poll-release-or-reinstate-richie-incognito

it would be interesting what the numbers would be if everybody that responded had all the information we have in a pretty comprehensive thread... do they know about the other alleged incidents? if not, might be different?

Maybe. Those allegations are pretty prevalent out there though.

Also, he was not (as I understand things) suspended for the golf course incident. He was suspended for the bullying allegations. He somehow paid off (or the team did?) the victim of the golf course incident - an incident that we know very little detail about.

Is that your understanding as well?

that is right, chuck...

i mean, the police report is out there in the public domain... it is pretty ugly... albeit, admittedly an allegation... that was all it was supposed to be, because the volunteer declined to press charges... and yes, that is the word, her silence and agreement to not press charges was bought...

i have wondered where the $30,000 figure recently floated came from? the police report was public domain, so that was probably inevitable to be unearthed by the media once incohnito was at the white hot center of a media firestorm and conflagaration... i actually think somebody within the dolphins organization was the source... could martin have known? somebody like aponte or ireland might have been indiscrete to somebody outside the organization BEFORE this thing hit, and it could have been repeated after the fact... i think the alleged victim, if she did sign a non-disclosure agreement, could be sued if the leak were traced back to her (that might be hard to prove, but still, she may be reluctant to take that chance)...

it wouldn't surprise me if incognito thought it was funny and bragged about it to others... than if a player tells a wife about crazy richie, and she tells a couple friends or family members, and than the rumor gets exponential for a time, it would than be impossible to contain...

 

[ChuckLiddell]

I am really uncertain about my position on reinstating Incognito, but leaning toward not. Although nobody really knows the extent of what happened on the golf course, I think Richie has run out of "benefit of the doubt" points, and I do see the fire behind that smoke.

ESPN is running a poll right now. So far only 214 votes, but 72% of respondents think he should be reinstated. Says a lot for how those 214 people view the bullying allegations IMO.

http://espn.go.com/blog/miami-dolphins/post/_/id/3345/poll-release-or-reinstate-richie-incognito

What does it say about how they view sexual harassment?

I don't know. It may say that since the public is not privy to those details and no charges were ever actually filed (correct?), that this information is not relevant to their view of the suspension.

Are you offering two possibilities or saying that since since no charges were filed the public is not privy, and therefore the information is not relevant to their viewpoint?

Honestly, I really don't know. I am kind of shocked by the response on that poll. Especially given the seemingly uneven split on the opinions to the other side in this forum. The fact that it is probably mostly Dolphins fans voting on the poll is certainly relevant.

My guess though, is that either much of the public is unaware of the allegations from the golf course, or, since they do not have details and no charges were formally brought forth, that they are disregarding it. Also, the fact (as I understand it)remains that Incognito was not suspended for that incident. He was suspended for the bullying allegations. I do believe that the poll results reflect a strong opinion from the public that the bullying allegations are bogus. Just my opinion of their opinion.

 

[KCitons]

I am really uncertain about my position on reinstating Incognito, but leaning toward not. Although nobody really knows the extent of what happened on the golf course, I think Richie has run out of "benefit of the doubt" points, and I do see the fire behind that smoke.

ESPN is running a poll right now. So far only 214 votes, but 72% of respondents think he should be reinstated. Says a lot for how those 214 people view the bullying allegations IMO.

http://espn.go.com/blog/miami-dolphins/post/_/id/3345/poll-release-or-reinstate-richie-incognito

it would be interesting what the numbers would be if everybody that responded had all the information we have in a pretty comprehensive thread... do they know about the other alleged incidents? if not, might be different?

Maybe. Those allegations are pretty prevalent out there though.

Also, he was not (as I understand things) suspended for the golf course incident. He was suspended for the bullying allegations. He somehow paid off (or the team did?) the victim of the golf course incident - an incident that we know very little detail about.

Is that your understanding as well?

that is right, chuck...

i mean, the police report is out there in the public domain... it is pretty ugly... albeit, admittedly an allegation... that was all it was supposed to be, because the volunteer declined to press charges... and yes, that is the word, her silence and agreement to not press charges was bought...

i have wondered where the $30,000 figure recently floated came from? the police report was public domain, so that was probably inevitable to be unearthed by the media once incohnito was at the white hot center of a media firestorm and conflagaration... i actually think somebody within the dolphins organization was the source... could martin have known? somebody like aponte or ireland might have been indiscrete to somebody outside the organization BEFORE this thing hit, and it could have been repeated after the fact... i think the alleged victim, if she did sign a non-disclosure agreement, could be sued if the leak were traced back to her (that might be hard to prove, but still, she may be reluctant to take that chance)...

it wouldn't surprise me if incognito thought it was funny and bragged about it to others... than if a player tells a wife about crazy richie, and she tells a couple friends or family members, and than the rumor gets exponential for a time, it would than be impossible to contain...

I first saw the $30k amount around the time that Wells was interviewing Dolphins players. I hadn't heard anything before that. So, maybe one of the flies on the wall during the interview let that slip.

I also remember reading that other players witnessed the sexual assault. And, I believe the Dolphins had record of this. So, it wasn't just a female making an unfounded allegation. Which does happen to players. I don't see Richie doing a lot of these things while alone. I think he is a person that thrives off the attention/laughter he gets from others when he does these stupid things.

 

[Dizzy]

Those poll results shouldn't be shocking at all.

So let's just say Richie Incognito is guilty of everything he is accused of (past and present)… what should his punishment be? Are we talking lifetime ban from the NFL? Are we saying that because he is a rotten human being (I don't think anyone really disputes that) he has no right to earn a living at his chosen profession?

Just curious because there are quite a few spousal abusers and drunks 'n' drug addicts in the Hall of Fame and even under normal circumstances if one is fired (cut) from company "A" there's nothing preventing company "B" from hiring that person (even with full disclosure).

 

[Bob Magaw]

Those poll results shouldn't be shocking at all.

So let's just say Richie Incognito is guilty of everything he is accused of (past and present)… what should his punishment be? Are we talking lifetime ban from the NFL? Are we saying that because he is a rotten human being (I don't think anyone really disputes that) he has no right to earn a living at his chosen profession?

Just curious because there are quite a few spousal abusers and drunks 'n' drug addicts in the Hall of Fame and even under normal circumstances if one is fired (cut) from company "A" there's nothing preventing company "B" from hiring that person (even with full disclosure).

the poll i interpreted as reinstated by the dolphins...

for various reasons, it is harder for me to see him returning to the dolphins, than another NFL team (reports there would be interest)... of course some kind of bountygate-type suspension could be the joker in the deck, than we will have to see how long to guess how and when he might return...

 

[KCitons]

Those poll results shouldn't be shocking at all.

So let's just say Richie Incognito is guilty of everything he is accused of (past and present)… what should his punishment be? Are we talking lifetime ban from the NFL? Are we saying that because he is a rotten human being (I don't think anyone really disputes that) he has no right to earn a living at his chosen profession?

Just curious because there are quite a few spousal abusers and drunks 'n' drug addicts in the Hall of Fame and even under normal circumstances if one is fired (cut) from company "A" there's nothing preventing company "B" from hiring that person (even with full disclosure).

Actually, if I was to sexually assault a woman, the odds are I wouldn't have the opportunity to pay her $30k to go away. I would be tried and probably convicted since there were other witnesses. I would then have to register as a sex offender and that would pop up every time I tried to get a job.

Working in Loss Prevention, all criminal history checks use to come through me. If someones history came back with a sexual assault, that would kill the hiring process. It's only because of his football and financial status that some players are able to side step the legal process.

 

[ChuckLiddell]

Those poll results shouldn't be shocking at all.

So let's just say Richie Incognito is guilty of everything he is accused of (past and present)… what should his punishment be? Are we talking lifetime ban from the NFL? Are we saying that because he is a rotten human being (I don't think anyone really disputes that) he has no right to earn a living at his chosen profession?

Just curious because there are quite a few spousal abusers and drunks 'n' drug addicts in the Hall of Fame and even under normal circumstances if one is fired (cut) from company "A" there's nothing preventing company "B" from hiring that person (even with full disclosure).

Actually, if I was to sexually assault a woman, the odds are I wouldn't have the opportunity to pay her $30k to go away. I would be tried and probably convicted since there were other witnesses. I would then have to register as a sex offender and that would pop up every time I tried to get a job.

Working in Loss Prevention, all criminal history checks use to come through me. If someones history came back with a sexual assault, that would kill the hiring process. It's only because of his football and financial status that some players are able to side step the legal process.

I agree with this.

It sucks, but it is the reality. I would love to see it change, but until people stop accepting the pay-offs, it wont. Tough for the NFL, or any other employer to take action on something like this without someone actually accusing the player of the crime, and following through with it.

Maybe that's what JM is doing. Not only making the accusation, but following through with it because he wants to right a wrong. I doubt it, but its possible. I guess we will see what he does when and if the team or league offers him his hush money to just go away.

 

[Neofight]

Those poll results shouldn't be shocking at all.

So let's just say Richie Incognito is guilty of everything he is accused of (past and present) what should his punishment be? Are we talking lifetime ban from the NFL? Are we saying that because he is a rotten human being (I don't think anyone really disputes that) he has no right to earn a living at his chosen profession?

Just curious because there are quite a few spousal abusers and drunks 'n' drug addicts in the Hall of Fame and even under normal circumstances if one is fired (cut) from company "A" there's nothing preventing company "B" from hiring that person (even with full disclosure).

No, nobody has a right to play in the NFL.

 

[Touchdown There]

I think Incognito plays again for The Dolphins. If not he will be scooped up in a nano second.

I am willing to do a friendly wager on this. No chance he plays this year and next year he will have to get approval from the NFL, the owner, the new GM, and the head coach. That is four layers of approval, and I do not think Ross lets Incognito set foot back on Dolphins facilities.

 

[KCitons]

I think Incognito plays again for The Dolphins. If not he will be scooped up in a nano second.

I am willing to do a friendly wager on this. No chance he plays this year and next year he will have to get approval from the NFL, the owner, the new GM, and the head coach. That is four layers of approval, and I do not think Ross lets Incognito set foot back on Dolphins facilities.

"The usual bet Mortimer?"

The language is fitting as well. Valentine was shocked to hear the N word coming from a white guy.

 

[msommer]

I think Incognito plays again for The Dolphins. If not he will be scooped up in a nano second.

I am willing to do a friendly wager on this. No chance he plays this year and next year he will have to get approval from the NFL, the owner, the new GM, and the head coach. That is four layers of approval, and I do not think Ross lets Incognito set foot back on Dolphins facilities.

I think you are right unless he comes out squeaky clean from the Wells investigation. If that happens - and it has to be Superman clean - the NFL can't keep the suspension going, the Dolphins have no reason for the suspension, if they cut him the NFLPA will be up in arms and Richie will be suing.

It's not a scenario that I would put money on though.

So far we have documentation for repeated use of the N-word, sexual assault allegations (charges dropped allegedly due to payment), allegations about racism or at least bigotry (the asian team employee), allegations of weirdness in general (mandatory strip club meetings), the Vegas trip (who paid what for whom), all on Richie Incognito's doorstep - this despite relative quiet since Wells started interviewing people. And the allegations of bulllying Martin.

On the basis of this I'm inclined to believe that odds on Richie being given an apology by the Dolphins and the NFL are bad.

More likely there will be some reason for it not to happen - someone said something that Richie did (which doesn't have to be about Martin), and Richie will not be a Dolphin (don't forget he is an UFA after this season), but may sue the team for the rest of his money and potentially damages - this will obviously depend also on whether the NFL decides to suspend further or if he can go take some sensitivity training etc and be reinstated next season - if he feels unfairly treated.

And the media circus continues.

IMHO Wells is not only investigating the allegations but he is probably also advising on what spin to put on it to ensure none of this sticks on the NFL in such a way that the revenues go down in a permanent way. Obviously he's not going to put that in his official report...

 

[fatness]

And the only reason I am so interested is because this involves my hometown team, is in the news every single freaking day down here on sports radio....it is hard to get away from. If this were any other team....I would not care one iota about any of it and just hear about it when i hear about it.

That really has to be irritating for Dolphins fans, honestly. Day after day of hearing nothing, or hearing this report or that rumor, and not knowing when there's going to be any resolution --- right in the middle of an NFL season. It wouldn't be as bad during an offseason.

As far as the reputation of the Dolphins taking a hit for a long time, that's not going to happen. The Patriots still have tons of fans after spygate. The Saints still have tons of fans after bountygate. So hang in there, it'll pass, and Dolphin fans can go back to being Dolphin fans and concentrate on football instead of all this ####.

 

[fatness]

I don't think either Incognito or Martin will play for the Dolphins again. I think each of them will get a shot elsewhere. I think the Dolphins are in a tough spot, watching out for possible lawsuits from both Incognito and Martin. I also think it's a tough spot the Dolphins' ownership and front office put themselves in. I don't blame their fans for wanting all this to be over and to start with a clean slate.

 

[ratbast]

Dolphins are experiencing a Risk Management nightmare! Most owners will take note and the NFL certainly will, no company wants this exposure, it shows a fixable flaw in the business model.

 

[ratbast]

The 2 main problems for The Dolphins: the lack of reporting/reaction protocol and that the coach/captains allowing the team to put Incognito in a leadership role, they knew he was a loose cannon, they should have never let it happen. Its simply bad risk management which is bad business.

 

[Kalamazoo]

This topic is really a Worldview Rorschach Test. Present people with a basic set of facts and assumptions, and see what immediate conclusions they draw. All over the map. Most people swear "the facts" "clearly" support their take ... but IMHO, pretty much all the differences in opinion are caused by individual perspective (experiences, philosophy, worldview). All of us are taking what facts there are (and in many cases, necessarily treating some assumptions as facts) and running them through our own experential sieves. And don't we all fundamentally trust our own experiences and perspectives more than any another person's?

"Having seen a small part of life, swift to die, men rise and fly away like smoke, persuaded only of what each has met with...Who then claims to find the whole?" -- Empedocles

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. You are spot-on. Am I making this up, or do they have those creative writing exercises in school where they give a few facts or a picture or something and ask students to write a story? (If not, they should.) This is just like that.

I am generally somewhat sympathetic to Martin's side (given the "facts" we have), but here are some of my biases/experiences that inform that leaning: I don't care one way or another about the success or failure of the Dolphins. I am fan of some sports teams, but not nearly passionately enough so that I would be upset if something like this happened on one of them. I have never played team sports (although I do love working in close, cooperative teams). I am something of an individualist. I am generally pretty unimpressed with "codes" of the sort Martin has supposedly broken. (I dislike them in that I believe they are used to shield members of other types of fraternal organizations such as the police and military from being held accountable for wrong-doing. Of course a locker room setting is different, but the strict adherence to the principle that some espouse is scary to me, because I feel like it often comes from the same psychological place as the police, military, etc. codes). I tend to root for for the underdog or misfit or outcast. I want a good, juicy story.

So, really, it sounds like what we need is a creative writing thread instead of this one! Maybe one where new information is interjected as it becomes available and the authors are challenged to revise their stories.

 

[Kalamazoo]

Regarding Richie's witchhunt/reinstatement/past offences being held against him here:

I really loathe unfairness and being falsely accused and I try to give as much benefit of the doubt to supposed offenders, but in a way karma is a b#tch. I hate to admit that this is one of the very few cases where even if turns out that Richie was totally innocent of bad behavior in the Martin case, but still gets punished, I wouldn't be too outraged about it; it couldn't happen to a nicer guy.

Do you all remember the Dominique Strauss-Kahn case from a few years ago, where he was accused of sexually assaulting an African maid in a fancy Manhattan hotel? Because he had a reputation for being a philandering ##### and had other rumors and accusations of sexual misconduct, he got very, very little benefit of the doubt. He also lost his job. When it turned out that the whole thing was fraudulent, I had a hard time feeling any sympathy for him, to be honest. If Incognito is somehow "cleared" of bad behavior, his situation will be very similar to DSK's.

 

[Kalamazoo]

Richie was the leadership guy on this team, he did a poor job of not understanding Martin. Even if Martin had soft skin and couldn't take jokes, you don't lay into him, you tell the coaches he's not qualified to be in the NFL and let them bench him or bring someone else in. Avoid the guy, don't include him in any reindeer games, that sends a message without bullying.

MOP -- I agree with a lot of your post here, but are you really saying that if Martin couldn't take everything Richie considered to be a joke that he's not qualified to be in the NFL? If so, I would strongly disagree. If Richie were using the n-word or making threats against Martin's family in a "joking" fashion or making some of the other sorts of comments he's been alleged to have made, I absolutely believe that Martin could be excused from strongly objecting to that kind of joking without being unqualified to be in the NFL. It is pretty extreme to imply that if a black man (or anybody for that matter) doesn't want to be called the n-word, even in the most lighthearted way, that he's not fit to be a football player. Actually, given Richie's apparent sense of humor, I'd guess that many more players than Martin would be unqualified. But, again, I am probably not understanding you correctly here.

I should add that I've seen it said that o-linemen need to be immune from taunting by their counterparts on the opposing team. While this is true, there is a huge difference between brushing off non-personal jabs from opposing players and not minding when people you are close to and you feel should care about you and have your back make similar taunts and jabs.

You yourself mentioned your Christian friend you try to be considerate of. I obviously don't know him, but there are many people who would be less upset by a generic message board post attacking their faith than a close friend doing so.

 

[KCitons]

Now hearing that Richie, the Dolphins and the NFLPA have agreed to extend Richie's suspension (with pay) until the conclusion of Wells' investigation.

If Incognito is completely innocent, why wouldn't he be putting more pressure on the Dolphins to cut him or reinstate him?

He must be motivated by the money. We should check into his parents history and see if they ever collected welfare.

 

[fatness]

With the Dolphins just three days away from having to make a decision to release Richie Incognito or reinstate him from suspension, it appears that Incognito will make things easy on the team by agreeing to a third option: Keep the suspension going, with pay.

Jeff Darlington of NFL Network reports that Incognito and the Dolphins have agreed that Incognito will remain away from the team, but will get paid, while investigator Ted Wells continues examining the Dolphins’ locker room culture.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/11/29/report-incognito-agrees-to-extend-his-suspension-with-pay/

According to Mike Garafolo of FOX Sports, two of the four weeks of Incognito’s otherwise unpaid suspension occurred with pay.

The suspension now continues with pay, as Jeff Darlington of NFL Network originally reported. Per Garafolo, the paid suspension last two weeks beyond Week 13.

It means that the Dolphins will have to decide after Week 15 whether to reinstate Incognito for the final two games of the season, or to release him.

The Dolphins’ final decision could hinge on whether they still have a shot at making it to the postseason — and on whether they choose to keep Incognito from joining a team destined to play in January. Peter King has reported that at least one playoff contender is interested in Incognito.

Regardless, the agreement means that Incognito has lost only (only?) $470,000 for his suspension, that he’ll get $470,000 that he otherwise would have lost, and that he’ll get another $470,000 to do nothing for two extra weeks.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/11/29/report-incognito-loses-only-two-game-checks/

 

[fatness]

Jeff Darlington

Richie Incognito isn't any closer to getting back on the field for the Miami Dolphins, but his days without a paycheck will soon be over.

 

[Bigboy10182000]

@HubbuchNYP: Dolphins' moves with Incognito and Martin this week are intriguing. I'm no lawyer, but it sounds like Martin's case might not be so strong.

 

[fatness]

@HubbuchNYP: Dolphins' moves with Incognito and Martin this week are intriguing. I'm no lawyer, but it sounds like Martin's case might not be so strong.

Pretty funny that the Dolphins not allowing Incognito to come back is interpreted as some Martin weakness.

 

[KCitons]

@HubbuchNYP: Dolphins' moves with Incognito and Martin this week are intriguing. I'm no lawyer, but it sounds like Martin's case might not be so strong.

Yeah hubbuch has been on one side of this thing since the beginning.

 

[MoveToSkypager]

@HubbuchNYP: Dolphins' moves with Incognito and Martin this week are intriguing. I'm no lawyer, but it sounds like Martin's case might not be so strong.

Pretty big info here.

 

[Bigboy10182000]

@HubbuchNYP: Dolphins' moves with Incognito and Martin this week are intriguing. I'm no lawyer, but it sounds like Martin's case might not be so strong.

Pretty funny that the Dolphins not allowing Incognito to come back is interpreted as some Martin weakness.

That's what you took from that?

 

[KellysHeroes]

they must of known that if they cut him he would be on a new team by the end of the weekend, probably the Jets.

 

[fatness]

Dolphins guard Richie Incognito currently is being paid to not play for the team. Tackle Jonathan Martin will be, too, for the rest of the season. Per a league source, the Dolphins will continue to pay Martin now that he has been shifted to the non-football illness list.

The change in Martin’s status comes one month and two days after Martin left the team. He had been receiving weekly game checks because he had still been on the active roster. The Dolphins, as a result, had been operating with only 52 players.

Moving Martin to the NFI list means that the Dolphins once again have 53 roster spots. It also means that Martin’s status with the team will be determined in the offseason, at which time one of the issues will be nearly $1 million in bonus money that applies to the 2014 and 2015 seasons under Martin’s four-year rookie contract.

Good news for Dolphin fans -- a full roster again.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/11/30/martin-will-be-paid-while-on-nfi-list/