Drew Vs. Peyton: Who's Better, Really, 2006-09? (1 Viewer)

[SaintsInDome2006]

My partisanship is obvious, so I will lay that on the table (as though it wouldn't be for me anyway, right?), and I also fully admit that I've seen much more Brees playing football than Peyton Williams Manning, but I want to ask something:

All this talk about Peyton Manning being the best QB in football and maybe the best ever, replete with threads comparing him to Joe Montana and other true greats, look at the last 4 years:

Year Cmp Att Cmp% Yds TD TD% Int Int% Y/C Y/G Rate Sk Sk%

BREES

2006*+ 356 554 64.3 4418 26 4.7 11 2 12.4 276.1 96.2 18 3.1

2007 440 652 67.5 4423 28 4.3 18 2.8 10.1 276.4 89.4 16 2.4

2008* 413 635 65 5069 34 5.4 17 2.7 12.3 316.8 96.2 13 2

2009* 363 514 70.6 4388 34 6.6 11 2.1 12.1 292.5 109.6 20 3.7

18298 (Tot yds.) 122 (Tot TD) 5.25 (Avg. TD%) 57 (Tot INT) 2.4 (Avg INT%) 97.85 (Avg Rat) 67 (Tot Sks) 2.8 (Avg Sk%)

PMANNING

2006* 362 557 65 4397 31 5.6 9 1.6 12.1 274.8 101 14 2.5

2007* 337 515 65.4 4040 31 6 14 2.7 12 252.5 98 21 3.9

2008*+ 371 555 66.8 4002 27 4.9 12 2.2 10.8 250.1 95 14 2.5

2009*+ 393 571 68.8 4500 33 5.8 16 2.8 11.5 281.3 99.9 10 1.7

16939 (Tot yds.) 122 (Tot TD) 5.575 (Avg. TD%) 51 (Tot INT) 2.325 (Avg INT%) 98.475 (Avg Rat) 59 (Tot Sks) 2.65 (Avg Sk%)

If you look at just the last 4 years, Brees matches or outpaces Manning in almost every stat. Brees has more yards, an equal number of TD's, a comparable TD%, more INT's (but the same number the last 2 years), a comparable INT%, and a comparable QB rating and sack %.

2007: Brees set the NFL record for completions.

2008: Brees practically tied Marino's NFL all time single season passing yardage record.

2009: Brees set the NFL record for single season completion percentage.

Brees led the NFL in yardage twice, completions once, completion % once, TD's twice, TD% once, QB rating once, lowest sack % once.

PManning led the league in TD's once and QB rating once, both in 2006, lowest sack % twice.

The key difference has obviously been in wins:

Excluding the last two games for PManning this year, his record as a starter since `06 is: 52-11. Brees' is 38-23. Obvious dominating advantage to PManning.

But in the playoffs, PManning has gone 5-3, Brees has gone 4-1. [Edited]

[Edit] And now they each have a Super Bowl win. Brees over a team that started 14-0 manned by a Hall of Fame QB supposedly ready to take his seat among the greats (while setting Super Bowl record for completion percentage), and PManning over Rex Grossman and the 2006 Bears in the sloppiest Super Bowl ever.

But here's what gets me:

Archie Manning was known as a great player who could never get to play on a decent team, he was a guy known for doing so much with so little. But Peyton Manning has played on TEN (10) teams with 10 or more wins, and has an overall playoff record of 9-8 and has won 1 NFL Championship (against maybe one of the worst QB's and offenses to ever reach the Super Bowl in a driving rainstorm). Now even though he's played with Marshall Faulk, Edgerrin James, Reggie Wayne, Marvin Harrison etc. and some great offensive linemen over the years, and Jim Mora/Tony Dungy defenses, he certainly deserves a lot of credit for an amazing winning record (117-59 overall), but has ANYONE EVER DONE SO LITTLE WITH SO MUCH? EVER?

This just seems like the obverse of the Archie Manning curse.

 

[Gopher State]

My partisanship is obvious, so I will lay that on the table (as though it wouldn't be for me anyway, right?), and I also fully admit that I've seen much more Brees playing football than Peyton Williams Manning, but I want to ask something:

All this talk about Peyton Manning being the best QB in football and maybe the best ever, replete with threads comparing him to Joe Montana and other true greats, look at the last 4 years:

Year Cmp Att Cmp% Yds TD TD% Int Int% Y/C Y/G Rate Sk Sk%

BREES

2006*+ 356 554 64.3 4418 26 4.7 11 2 12.4 276.1 96.2 18 3.1

2007 440 652 67.5 4423 28 4.3 18 2.8 10.1 276.4 89.4 16 2.4

2008* 413 635 65 5069 34 5.4 17 2.7 12.3 316.8 96.2 13 2

2009* 363 514 70.6 4388 34 6.6 11 2.1 12.1 292.5 109.6 20 3.7

18298 (Tot yds.) 122 (Tot TD) 5.25 (Avg. TD%) 57 (Tot INT) 2.4 (Avg INT%) 97.85 (Avg Rat) 67 (Tot Sks) 2.8 (Avg Sk%)

PMANNING

2006* 362 557 65 4397 31 5.6 9 1.6 12.1 274.8 101 14 2.5

2007* 337 515 65.4 4040 31 6 14 2.7 12 252.5 98 21 3.9

2008*+ 371 555 66.8 4002 27 4.9 12 2.2 10.8 250.1 95 14 2.5

2009*+ 393 571 68.8 4500 33 5.8 16 2.8 11.5 281.3 99.9 10 1.7

16939 (Tot yds.) 122 (Tot TD) 5.575 (Avg. TD%) 51 (Tot INT) 2.325 (Avg INT%) 98.475 (Avg Rat) 59 (Tot Sks) 2.65 (Avg Sk%)

If you look at just the last 4 years, Brees matches or outpaces Manning in almost every stat. Brees has more yards, an equal number of TD's, a comparable TD%, more INT's (but the same number the last 2 years), a comparable INT%, and a comparable QB rating and sack %.

Brees practically tied Marino's NFL all time single season passing yardage record.

Brees set the NFL record for single season completion percentage.

Brees led the NFL in yardage twice, completion % once, TD's twice, TD% once, QB rating once, lowest sack % once.

PManning led the league in TD's once and QB rating once, both in 2006, lowest sack % twice.

The key difference has obviously been in wins:

Excluding the last two games for PManning this year, his record as a starter since `06 is: 52-11. Brees' is 38-23. Obvious dominating advantage to PManning.

But in the playoffs, PManning has gone 5-2, Brees has gone 3-1.

But here's what gets me:

Archie Manning was known as a great player who could never get to play on a decent team, he was a guy known for doing so much with so little. But Peyton Manning has played on TEN (10) teams with 10 or more wins, and has an overall playoff record of 9-8 and has won 1 NFL Championship (against maybe one of the worst QB's and offenses to ever reach the Super Bowl in a driving rainstorm). Now even though he's played with Marshall Faulk, Edgerrin James, Reggie Wayne, Marvin Harrison etc. and some great offensive linemen over the years, and Jim Mora/Tony Dungy defenses, he certainly deserves a lot of credit for an amazing winning record (117-59 overall), but has ANYONE EVER DONE SO LITTLE WITH SO MUCH? EVER?

This just seems like the obverse of the Archie Manning curse.

You feel better about P. Manning once he wins his second Superbowl tomorrow. Keep your chin up

 

[Black]

The knock on Peyton dating back to Tennessee was that he could not win the big game. He finally did it, finally started beating the Patriots, and just knocked out two of the best defenses in the NFL. It's hard not to like his chances.

However...I really like Brees, especially with a running game. With play action, he'll beat the IND DEF. If New Orleans can stick to the run game, not turn over the ball, not lose points on special teams, they can win this game. But Brees and his WR need to play better than they did against MIN. If NO can get a turnover or two from the Colts, that also helps the cause.

Working against the Saints is that Peyton has generally been safe with the ball. In a couple of games, he has inexplicably given up 2-3 interceptions, so when it rains, it pours. We'll see what happens.

I do appreciate the stats comparison, and can think back to some very good games Brees has had this year against very good teams.

 

[SSOG]

My partisanship is obvious, so I will lay that on the table (as though it wouldn't be for me anyway, right?), and I also fully admit that I've seen much more Brees playing football than Peyton Williams Manning, but I want to ask something:

All this talk about Peyton Manning being the best QB in football and maybe the best ever, replete with threads comparing him to Joe Montana and other true greats, look at the last 4 years:

Year Cmp Att Cmp% Yds TD TD% Int Int% Y/C Y/G Rate Sk Sk%

BREES

2006*+ 356 554 64.3 4418 26 4.7 11 2 12.4 276.1 96.2 18 3.1

2007 440 652 67.5 4423 28 4.3 18 2.8 10.1 276.4 89.4 16 2.4

2008* 413 635 65 5069 34 5.4 17 2.7 12.3 316.8 96.2 13 2

2009* 363 514 70.6 4388 34 6.6 11 2.1 12.1 292.5 109.6 20 3.7

18298 (Tot yds.) 122 (Tot TD) 5.25 (Avg. TD%) 57 (Tot INT) 2.4 (Avg INT%) 97.85 (Avg Rat) 67 (Tot Sks) 2.8 (Avg Sk%)

PMANNING

2006* 362 557 65 4397 31 5.6 9 1.6 12.1 274.8 101 14 2.5

2007* 337 515 65.4 4040 31 6 14 2.7 12 252.5 98 21 3.9

2008*+ 371 555 66.8 4002 27 4.9 12 2.2 10.8 250.1 95 14 2.5

2009*+ 393 571 68.8 4500 33 5.8 16 2.8 11.5 281.3 99.9 10 1.7

16939 (Tot yds.) 122 (Tot TD) 5.575 (Avg. TD%) 51 (Tot INT) 2.325 (Avg INT%) 98.475 (Avg Rat) 59 (Tot Sks) 2.65 (Avg Sk%)

If you look at just the last 4 years, Brees matches or outpaces Manning in almost every stat. Brees has more yards, an equal number of TD's, a comparable TD%, more INT's (but the same number the last 2 years), a comparable INT%, and a comparable QB rating and sack %.

That's not what I see in those numbers. Brees has an edge in exactly ONE of the statistical categories you posted- total yards. Meanwhile, Peyton ties him in TDs and beats him in TD%, INTs, INT%, Rating, Sacks, and Sack%. So when you say "Brees matches or outpaces Manning in almost every stat", what you really mean is "Brees outpaces Manning in one stat, matches him in one stat, and is outpaced by Manning in 6 other stats". I don't have a dog in this fight, I just thought it was interesting that of the 8 stats that YOU CHOSE TO HIGHLIGHT, Manning had the edge in 6 of them.Personally, I think you left out the most important simple stat when it comes to evaluating QBs- YPA. Which is odd, to me, because that's one of the few areas where Brees has a very marginal edge. Brees's YPA over the last 4 years is a sterling 7.77. Manning's is an also-sterling 7.71.

Either way, when you get down to it, you're splitting hairs between the two from a statistical standpoint. To me, since Brees and Manning are neck and neck statistically, it comes down to the other stuff on their resume. In this case, the "other stuff" is 55 wins, 2 league MVPs, and a superbowl championship for Manning... and an awesome, heartwarming comeback story for Brees. Give me the wins and the MVPs.

I understand it's close and can't fault anyone who thinks that Brees has been better over that span, but for me, whenever anything's really close, I'm going with the guy with 4 league MVPs on his mantle. Not meant as a slight to Brees, but I honestly believe that Manning is the best QB to ever put on pads.

 

[Raider Nation]

Saints fans: Would you trade Brees for Manning right now? BE HONEST!

 

[kdt]

peyton is better. stats tell only half the story. unless, you are talking about fantasy, then it's all the story

 

[by_the_sea_wannabe]

Manning isn't in the battle for the greatest qb of all time just because of 06-09.

 

[gonzobill5]

This just seems like the obverse of the Archie Manning curse.

I'm just shocked that is really a word.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Saints fans: Would you trade Brees for Manning right now? BE HONEST!

NO _______'ing WAY.

 

[SproutDaddy]

My partisanship is obvious, so I will lay that on the table (as though it wouldn't be for me anyway, right?), and I also fully admit that I've seen much more Brees playing football than Peyton Williams Manning, but I want to ask something:

All this talk about Peyton Manning being the best QB in football and maybe the best ever, replete with threads comparing him to Joe Montana and other true greats, look at the last 4 years:

Year Cmp Att Cmp% Yds TD TD% Int Int% Y/C Y/G Rate Sk Sk%

BREES

2006*+ 356 554 64.3 4418 26 4.7 11 2 12.4 276.1 96.2 18 3.1

2007 440 652 67.5 4423 28 4.3 18 2.8 10.1 276.4 89.4 16 2.4

2008* 413 635 65 5069 34 5.4 17 2.7 12.3 316.8 96.2 13 2

2009* 363 514 70.6 4388 34 6.6 11 2.1 12.1 292.5 109.6 20 3.7

18298 (Tot yds.) 122 (Tot TD) 5.25 (Avg. TD%) 57 (Tot INT) 2.4 (Avg INT%) 97.85 (Avg Rat) 67 (Tot Sks) 2.8 (Avg Sk%)

PMANNING

2006* 362 557 65 4397 31 5.6 9 1.6 12.1 274.8 101 14 2.5

2007* 337 515 65.4 4040 31 6 14 2.7 12 252.5 98 21 3.9

2008*+ 371 555 66.8 4002 27 4.9 12 2.2 10.8 250.1 95 14 2.5

2009*+ 393 571 68.8 4500 33 5.8 16 2.8 11.5 281.3 99.9 10 1.7

16939 (Tot yds.) 122 (Tot TD) 5.575 (Avg. TD%) 51 (Tot INT) 2.325 (Avg INT%) 98.475 (Avg Rat) 59 (Tot Sks) 2.65 (Avg Sk%)

If you look at just the last 4 years, Brees matches or outpaces Manning in almost every stat. Brees has more yards, an equal number of TD's, a comparable TD%, more INT's (but the same number the last 2 years), a comparable INT%, and a comparable QB rating and sack %.

Brees practically tied Marino's NFL all time single season passing yardage record.

Brees set the NFL record for single season completion percentage.

Brees led the NFL in yardage twice, completion % once, TD's twice, TD% once, QB rating once, lowest sack % once.

PManning led the league in TD's once and QB rating once, both in 2006, lowest sack % twice.

The key difference has obviously been in wins:

Excluding the last two games for PManning this year, his record as a starter since `06 is: 52-11. Brees' is 38-23. Obvious dominating advantage to PManning.

But in the playoffs, PManning has gone 5-2, Brees has gone 3-1.

But here's what gets me:

Archie Manning was known as a great player who could never get to play on a decent team, he was a guy known for doing so much with so little. But Peyton Manning has played on TEN (10) teams with 10 or more wins, and has an overall playoff record of 9-8 and has won 1 NFL Championship (against maybe one of the worst QB's and offenses to ever reach the Super Bowl in a driving rainstorm). Now even though he's played with Marshall Faulk, Edgerrin James, Reggie Wayne, Marvin Harrison etc. and some great offensive linemen over the years, and Jim Mora/Tony Dungy defenses, he certainly deserves a lot of credit for an amazing winning record (117-59 overall), but has ANYONE EVER DONE SO LITTLE WITH SO MUCH? EVER?

This just seems like the obverse of the Archie Manning curse.

You feel better about P. Manning once he wins his second Superbowl tomorrow. Keep your chin up

Just another example of great analysis by a skolded Viking fan. Keep up the good job of hating.......it will get you everywhere in life.

 

[Bayhawks]

My partisanship is obvious, so I will lay that on the table (as though it wouldn't be for me anyway, right?), and I also fully admit that I've seen much more Brees playing football than Peyton Williams Manning, but I want to ask something:

All this talk about Peyton Manning being the best QB in football and maybe the best ever, replete with threads comparing him to Joe Montana and other true greats, look at the last 4 years:

Year Cmp Att Cmp% Yds TD TD% Int Int% Y/C Y/G Rate Sk Sk%

BREES

2006*+ 356 554 64.3 4418 26 4.7 11 2 12.4 276.1 96.2 18 3.1

2007 440 652 67.5 4423 28 4.3 18 2.8 10.1 276.4 89.4 16 2.4

2008* 413 635 65 5069 34 5.4 17 2.7 12.3 316.8 96.2 13 2

2009* 363 514 70.6 4388 34 6.6 11 2.1 12.1 292.5 109.6 20 3.7

18298 (Tot yds.) 122 (Tot TD) 5.25 (Avg. TD%) 57 (Tot INT) 2.4 (Avg INT%) 97.85 (Avg Rat) 67 (Tot Sks) 2.8 (Avg Sk%)

PMANNING

2006* 362 557 65 4397 31 5.6 9 1.6 12.1 274.8 101 14 2.5

2007* 337 515 65.4 4040 31 6 14 2.7 12 252.5 98 21 3.9

2008*+ 371 555 66.8 4002 27 4.9 12 2.2 10.8 250.1 95 14 2.5

2009*+ 393 571 68.8 4500 33 5.8 16 2.8 11.5 281.3 99.9 10 1.7

16939 (Tot yds.) 122 (Tot TD) 5.575 (Avg. TD%) 51 (Tot INT) 2.325 (Avg INT%) 98.475 (Avg Rat) 59 (Tot Sks) 2.65 (Avg Sk%)

If you look at just the last 4 years, Brees matches or outpaces Manning in almost every stat. Brees has more yards, an equal number of TD's, a comparable TD%, more INT's (but the same number the last 2 years), a comparable INT%, and a comparable QB rating and sack %.

Brees practically tied Marino's NFL all time single season passing yardage record.

Brees set the NFL record for single season completion percentage.

Brees led the NFL in yardage twice, completion % once, TD's twice, TD% once, QB rating once, lowest sack % once.

PManning led the league in TD's once and QB rating once, both in 2006, lowest sack % twice.

The key difference has obviously been in wins:

Excluding the last two games for PManning this year, his record as a starter since `06 is: 52-11. Brees' is 38-23. Obvious dominating advantage to PManning.

But in the playoffs, PManning has gone 5-3, Brees has gone 4-1. [Edited]

[Edit] And now they each have a Super Bowl win. Brees over a team that started 14-0 manned by a Hall of Fame QB supposedly ready to take his seat among the greats, and PManning over Rex Grossman and the 2006 Bears in the sloppiest Super Bowl ever.

But here's what gets me:

Archie Manning was known as a great player who could never get to play on a decent team, he was a guy known for doing so much with so little. But Peyton Manning has played on TEN (10) teams with 10 or more wins, and has an overall playoff record of 9-8 and has won 1 NFL Championship (against maybe one of the worst QB's and offenses to ever reach the Super Bowl in a driving rainstorm). Now even though he's played with Marshall Faulk, Edgerrin James, Reggie Wayne, Marvin Harrison etc. and some great offensive linemen over the years, and Jim Mora/Tony Dungy defenses, he certainly deserves a lot of credit for an amazing winning record (117-59 overall), but has ANYONE EVER DONE SO LITTLE WITH SO MUCH? EVER?

This just seems like the obverse of the Archie Manning curse.

To answer the central question: Who's better, really, 2006-2009; I'd call it a push. Both have 1 SB win, and the stats are almost identical. Brees has 1300 more passing yards, but he has only averaged .1 YPA more than Manning (he has 157 more attempts). Brees also has slightly more INTs. That being said, Manning's winning percentage is so much better (.800 to .623), that evens out the slight statistical advantages that Brees has.To answer a different question: Who's the better all-time QB, Brees or Manning? The answer is Manning. His career numbers are so much better than Brees that it is ridiculous to even contend otherwise right now. Perhaps Brees will continue to put up great numbers and win another SB or two. And perhaps Mannnig won't win more SBs. If those things happen, it's possible for Brees to pass Manning in the all-time discussion, but he's not ahead of him yet.

 

[Breesisdaman]

This can be answered with confidence only when Drew Brees wins his 2nd Superbowl MVP. I do think the Saints will get back there at least one more time while Brees is with the team. The Saints have a young team and could be around a long time.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

My partisanship is obvious, so I will lay that on the table (as though it wouldn't be for me anyway, right?), and I also fully admit that I've seen much more Brees playing football than Peyton Williams Manning, but I want to ask something:

All this talk about Peyton Manning being the best QB in football and maybe the best ever, replete with threads comparing him to Joe Montana and other true greats, look at the last 4 years:

Year Cmp Att Cmp% Yds TD TD% Int Int% Y/C Y/G Rate Sk Sk%

BREES

2006*+ 356 554 64.3 4418 26 4.7 11 2 12.4 276.1 96.2 18 3.1

2007 440 652 67.5 4423 28 4.3 18 2.8 10.1 276.4 89.4 16 2.4

2008* 413 635 65 5069 34 5.4 17 2.7 12.3 316.8 96.2 13 2

2009* 363 514 70.6 4388 34 6.6 11 2.1 12.1 292.5 109.6 20 3.7

18298 (Tot yds.) 122 (Tot TD) 5.25 (Avg. TD%) 57 (Tot INT) 2.4 (Avg INT%) 97.85 (Avg Rat) 67 (Tot Sks) 2.8 (Avg Sk%)

PMANNING

2006* 362 557 65 4397 31 5.6 9 1.6 12.1 274.8 101 14 2.5

2007* 337 515 65.4 4040 31 6 14 2.7 12 252.5 98 21 3.9

2008*+ 371 555 66.8 4002 27 4.9 12 2.2 10.8 250.1 95 14 2.5

2009*+ 393 571 68.8 4500 33 5.8 16 2.8 11.5 281.3 99.9 10 1.7

16939 (Tot yds.) 122 (Tot TD) 5.575 (Avg. TD%) 51 (Tot INT) 2.325 (Avg INT%) 98.475 (Avg Rat) 59 (Tot Sks) 2.65 (Avg Sk%)

If you look at just the last 4 years, Brees matches or outpaces Manning in almost every stat. Brees has more yards, an equal number of TD's, a comparable TD%, more INT's (but the same number the last 2 years), a comparable INT%, and a comparable QB rating and sack %.

Brees practically tied Marino's NFL all time single season passing yardage record.

Brees set the NFL record for single season completion percentage.

Brees led the NFL in yardage twice, completion % once, TD's twice, TD% once, QB rating once, lowest sack % once.

PManning led the league in TD's once and QB rating once, both in 2006, lowest sack % twice.

The key difference has obviously been in wins:

Excluding the last two games for PManning this year, his record as a starter since `06 is: 52-11. Brees' is 38-23. Obvious dominating advantage to PManning.

But in the playoffs, PManning has gone 5-3, Brees has gone 4-1. [Edited]

[Edit] And now they each have a Super Bowl win. Brees over a team that started 14-0 manned by a Hall of Fame QB supposedly ready to take his seat among the greats, and PManning over Rex Grossman and the 2006 Bears in the sloppiest Super Bowl ever.

But here's what gets me:

Archie Manning was known as a great player who could never get to play on a decent team, he was a guy known for doing so much with so little. But Peyton Manning has played on TEN (10) teams with 10 or more wins, and has an overall playoff record of 9-8 and has won 1 NFL Championship (against maybe one of the worst QB's and offenses to ever reach the Super Bowl in a driving rainstorm). Now even though he's played with Marshall Faulk, Edgerrin James, Reggie Wayne, Marvin Harrison etc. and some great offensive linemen over the years, and Jim Mora/Tony Dungy defenses, he certainly deserves a lot of credit for an amazing winning record (117-59 overall), but has ANYONE EVER DONE SO LITTLE WITH SO MUCH? EVER?

This just seems like the obverse of the Archie Manning curse.

To answer the central question: Who's better, really, 2006-2009; I'd call it a push. Both have 1 SB win, and the stats are almost identical. Brees has 1300 more passing yards, but he has only averaged .1 YPA more than Manning (he has 157 more attempts). Brees also has slightly more INTs. That being said, Manning's winning percentage is so much better (.800 to .623), that evens out the slight statistical advantages that Brees has.To answer a different question: Who's the better all-time QB, Brees or Manning? The answer is Manning. His career numbers are so much better than Brees that it is ridiculous to even contend otherwise right now. Perhaps Brees will continue to put up great numbers and win another SB or two. And perhaps Mannnig won't win more SBs. If those things happen, it's possible for Brees to pass Manning in the all-time discussion, but he's not ahead of him yet.

All I can to this is, Brees has:2007 -> NFL Record for completions.

2008 -> one pass away from tying Marino's incredible record for passing yards in a season.

2009 -> NFL record for completion percentage.

2009 -> Super Bowl Record for completion percentage and a near perfect 15 for 17 in the second half, 29 foir 32 to close (two drops and a spike being the incompletions), scoring on 6 of 7 drives to close against what was a 14-0 team led by PManning himself (the lone missed drive being a stop on the 1 yard line). This is one of the all time great NFL Championship performances.

Brees gets penalized for being the QB on Schottenheimer's teams for the first part of his career.

This is all about the talk about PManning being the NFL's all time greatest quarterback before the game.

Not hearing that much anymore, actually not all.

PManning belongs in the "great" class, somewhere below Montana. Now so does Brees. Top 10, but not Top-3.

 

[Bayhawks]

My partisanship is obvious, so I will lay that on the table (as though it wouldn't be for me anyway, right?), and I also fully admit that I've seen much more Brees playing football than Peyton Williams Manning, but I want to ask something:

All this talk about Peyton Manning being the best QB in football and maybe the best ever, replete with threads comparing him to Joe Montana and other true greats, look at the last 4 years:

Year Cmp Att Cmp% Yds TD TD% Int Int% Y/C Y/G Rate Sk Sk%

BREES

2006*+ 356 554 64.3 4418 26 4.7 11 2 12.4 276.1 96.2 18 3.1

2007 440 652 67.5 4423 28 4.3 18 2.8 10.1 276.4 89.4 16 2.4

2008* 413 635 65 5069 34 5.4 17 2.7 12.3 316.8 96.2 13 2

2009* 363 514 70.6 4388 34 6.6 11 2.1 12.1 292.5 109.6 20 3.7

18298 (Tot yds.) 122 (Tot TD) 5.25 (Avg. TD%) 57 (Tot INT) 2.4 (Avg INT%) 97.85 (Avg Rat) 67 (Tot Sks) 2.8 (Avg Sk%)

PMANNING

2006* 362 557 65 4397 31 5.6 9 1.6 12.1 274.8 101 14 2.5

2007* 337 515 65.4 4040 31 6 14 2.7 12 252.5 98 21 3.9

2008*+ 371 555 66.8 4002 27 4.9 12 2.2 10.8 250.1 95 14 2.5

2009*+ 393 571 68.8 4500 33 5.8 16 2.8 11.5 281.3 99.9 10 1.7

16939 (Tot yds.) 122 (Tot TD) 5.575 (Avg. TD%) 51 (Tot INT) 2.325 (Avg INT%) 98.475 (Avg Rat) 59 (Tot Sks) 2.65 (Avg Sk%)

If you look at just the last 4 years, Brees matches or outpaces Manning in almost every stat. Brees has more yards, an equal number of TD's, a comparable TD%, more INT's (but the same number the last 2 years), a comparable INT%, and a comparable QB rating and sack %.

Brees practically tied Marino's NFL all time single season passing yardage record.

Brees set the NFL record for single season completion percentage.

Brees led the NFL in yardage twice, completion % once, TD's twice, TD% once, QB rating once, lowest sack % once.

PManning led the league in TD's once and QB rating once, both in 2006, lowest sack % twice.

The key difference has obviously been in wins:

Excluding the last two games for PManning this year, his record as a starter since `06 is: 52-11. Brees' is 38-23. Obvious dominating advantage to PManning.

But in the playoffs, PManning has gone 5-3, Brees has gone 4-1. [Edited]

[Edit] And now they each have a Super Bowl win. Brees over a team that started 14-0 manned by a Hall of Fame QB supposedly ready to take his seat among the greats, and PManning over Rex Grossman and the 2006 Bears in the sloppiest Super Bowl ever.

But here's what gets me:

Archie Manning was known as a great player who could never get to play on a decent team, he was a guy known for doing so much with so little. But Peyton Manning has played on TEN (10) teams with 10 or more wins, and has an overall playoff record of 9-8 and has won 1 NFL Championship (against maybe one of the worst QB's and offenses to ever reach the Super Bowl in a driving rainstorm). Now even though he's played with Marshall Faulk, Edgerrin James, Reggie Wayne, Marvin Harrison etc. and some great offensive linemen over the years, and Jim Mora/Tony Dungy defenses, he certainly deserves a lot of credit for an amazing winning record (117-59 overall), but has ANYONE EVER DONE SO LITTLE WITH SO MUCH? EVER?

This just seems like the obverse of the Archie Manning curse.

To answer the central question: Who's better, really, 2006-2009; I'd call it a push. Both have 1 SB win, and the stats are almost identical. Brees has 1300 more passing yards, but he has only averaged .1 YPA more than Manning (he has 157 more attempts). Brees also has slightly more INTs. That being said, Manning's winning percentage is so much better (.800 to .623), that evens out the slight statistical advantages that Brees has.To answer a different question: Who's the better all-time QB, Brees or Manning? The answer is Manning. His career numbers are so much better than Brees that it is ridiculous to even contend otherwise right now. Perhaps Brees will continue to put up great numbers and win another SB or two. And perhaps Mannnig won't win more SBs. If those things happen, it's possible for Brees to pass Manning in the all-time discussion, but he's not ahead of him yet.

All I can to this is, Brees has:2007 -> NFL Record for completions.

2008 -> one pass away from tying Marino's incredible record for passing yards in a season.

2009 -> NFL record for completion percentage.

2009 -> Super Bowl Record for completion percentage and a near perfect 15 for 17 in the second half, 29 foir 32 to close (two drops and a spike being the incompletions), scoring on 6 of 7 drives to close against what was a 14-0 team led by PManning himself (the lone missed drive being a stop on the 1 yard line). This is one of the all time great NFL Championship performances.

Brees gets penalized for being the QB on Schottenheimer's teams for the first part of his career.

This is all about the talk about PManning being the NFL's all time greatest quarterback before the game.

Not hearing that much anymore, actually not all.

PManning belongs in the "great" class, somewhere below Montana. Now so does Brees. Top 10, but not Top-3.

You're a Saints homer, I get it. You love your QB, I get it. You think he's great, I get it.However, you started this topic, and you asked about 2006-2009. The facts show that Brees and Manning are about even (or a slight edge in Manning's favor) for the time period that YOU asked about. From 2006-2009, TD's dead even, YPA almost dead even, Brees has a few more INTs (but he has more attempts), Brees has a few more passing yards (but he has more attempts), both have 1 SB win, Manning has led his team to the playoffs each year, while Brees missed one, Manning has been to 2 SBs, Brees has been to 1, Manning has a much higher winning percentage over that span, as well. I think calling it a push is generous for Brees, but they are close. Over their careers, Manning is ahead (he has played longer, and as I previously posted, Brees could pass him when all is said and done for both of their careers), that can't really be argued. If you try to argue this point, you make yourself look foolish.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

My partisanship is obvious, so I will lay that on the table (as though it wouldn't be for me anyway, right?), and I also fully admit that I've seen much more Brees playing football than Peyton Williams Manning, but I want to ask something:

All this talk about Peyton Manning being the best QB in football and maybe the best ever, replete with threads comparing him to Joe Montana and other true greats, look at the last 4 years:

Year Cmp Att Cmp% Yds TD TD% Int Int% Y/C Y/G Rate Sk Sk%

BREES

2006*+ 356 554 64.3 4418 26 4.7 11 2 12.4 276.1 96.2 18 3.1

2007 440 652 67.5 4423 28 4.3 18 2.8 10.1 276.4 89.4 16 2.4

2008* 413 635 65 5069 34 5.4 17 2.7 12.3 316.8 96.2 13 2

2009* 363 514 70.6 4388 34 6.6 11 2.1 12.1 292.5 109.6 20 3.7

18298 (Tot yds.) 122 (Tot TD) 5.25 (Avg. TD%) 57 (Tot INT) 2.4 (Avg INT%) 97.85 (Avg Rat) 67 (Tot Sks) 2.8 (Avg Sk%)

PMANNING

2006* 362 557 65 4397 31 5.6 9 1.6 12.1 274.8 101 14 2.5

2007* 337 515 65.4 4040 31 6 14 2.7 12 252.5 98 21 3.9

2008*+ 371 555 66.8 4002 27 4.9 12 2.2 10.8 250.1 95 14 2.5

2009*+ 393 571 68.8 4500 33 5.8 16 2.8 11.5 281.3 99.9 10 1.7

16939 (Tot yds.) 122 (Tot TD) 5.575 (Avg. TD%) 51 (Tot INT) 2.325 (Avg INT%) 98.475 (Avg Rat) 59 (Tot Sks) 2.65 (Avg Sk%)

If you look at just the last 4 years, Brees matches or outpaces Manning in almost every stat. Brees has more yards, an equal number of TD's, a comparable TD%, more INT's (but the same number the last 2 years), a comparable INT%, and a comparable QB rating and sack %.

Brees practically tied Marino's NFL all time single season passing yardage record.

Brees set the NFL record for single season completion percentage.

Brees led the NFL in yardage twice, completion % once, TD's twice, TD% once, QB rating once, lowest sack % once.

PManning led the league in TD's once and QB rating once, both in 2006, lowest sack % twice.

The key difference has obviously been in wins:

Excluding the last two games for PManning this year, his record as a starter since `06 is: 52-11. Brees' is 38-23. Obvious dominating advantage to PManning.

But in the playoffs, PManning has gone 5-3, Brees has gone 4-1. [Edited]

[Edit] And now they each have a Super Bowl win. Brees over a team that started 14-0 manned by a Hall of Fame QB supposedly ready to take his seat among the greats, and PManning over Rex Grossman and the 2006 Bears in the sloppiest Super Bowl ever.

But here's what gets me:

Archie Manning was known as a great player who could never get to play on a decent team, he was a guy known for doing so much with so little. But Peyton Manning has played on TEN (10) teams with 10 or more wins, and has an overall playoff record of 9-8 and has won 1 NFL Championship (against maybe one of the worst QB's and offenses to ever reach the Super Bowl in a driving rainstorm). Now even though he's played with Marshall Faulk, Edgerrin James, Reggie Wayne, Marvin Harrison etc. and some great offensive linemen over the years, and Jim Mora/Tony Dungy defenses, he certainly deserves a lot of credit for an amazing winning record (117-59 overall), but has ANYONE EVER DONE SO LITTLE WITH SO MUCH? EVER?

This just seems like the obverse of the Archie Manning curse.

To answer the central question: Who's better, really, 2006-2009; I'd call it a push. Both have 1 SB win, and the stats are almost identical. Brees has 1300 more passing yards, but he has only averaged .1 YPA more than Manning (he has 157 more attempts). Brees also has slightly more INTs. That being said, Manning's winning percentage is so much better (.800 to .623), that evens out the slight statistical advantages that Brees has.To answer a different question: Who's the better all-time QB, Brees or Manning? The answer is Manning. His career numbers are so much better than Brees that it is ridiculous to even contend otherwise right now. Perhaps Brees will continue to put up great numbers and win another SB or two. And perhaps Mannnig won't win more SBs. If those things happen, it's possible for Brees to pass Manning in the all-time discussion, but he's not ahead of him yet.

All I can to this is, Brees has:2007 -> NFL Record for completions.

2008 -> one pass away from tying Marino's incredible record for passing yards in a season.

2009 -> NFL record for completion percentage.

2009 -> Super Bowl Record for completion percentage and a near perfect 15 for 17 in the second half, 29 foir 32 to close (two drops and a spike being the incompletions), scoring on 6 of 7 drives to close against what was a 14-0 team led by PManning himself (the lone missed drive being a stop on the 1 yard line). This is one of the all time great NFL Championship performances.

Brees gets penalized for being the QB on Schottenheimer's teams for the first part of his career.

This is all about the talk about PManning being the NFL's all time greatest quarterback before the game.

Not hearing that much anymore, actually not all.

PManning belongs in the "great" class, somewhere below Montana. Now so does Brees. Top 10, but not Top-3.

You're a Saints homer, I get it. You love your QB, I get it. You think he's great, I get it.However, you started this topic, and you asked about 2006-2009. The facts show that Brees and Manning are about even (or a slight edge in Manning's favor) for the time period that YOU asked about. From 2006-2009, TD's dead even, YPA almost dead even, Brees has a few more INTs (but he has more attempts), Brees has a few more passing yards (but he has more attempts), both have 1 SB win, Manning has led his team to the playoffs each year, while Brees missed one, Manning has been to 2 SBs, Brees has been to 1, Manning has a much higher winning percentage over that span, as well. I think calling it a push is generous for Brees, but they are close. Over their careers, Manning is ahead (he has played longer, and as I previously posted, Brees could pass him when all is said and done for both of their careers), that can't really be argued. If you try to argue this point, you make yourself look foolish.

Ok, no, looking for comments and discussion, so thanks.>Over their careers, Manning is ahead< I agree, hence I limited it.

Thanks.

 

[Bayhawks]

PManning belongs in the "great" class, somewhere below Montana. Now so does Brees. Top 10, but not Top-3.

Manning definitely belongs in the great class. And he is arguably the #2 all time QB behind Montana. Even if you don't put him at #2, you almost have to put him at #3.1-Montana2-Manning3-Marino4-Unitas (only QB in the top 25 in passing yards to play the majority of his career in the 50's and 60's)5-Favre6-S. Young7-Elway8-Moon9-at this point, you could start talking about Brees, but I think you have to put Tarkenton, Fouts, and even Warner in the discussion, if you are considering Brees. Brees has had 4 great years, but those guys all had great stretches, as well. For Brees to be ahead of all of them (and close to Manning), he has to sustain that excellence for longer than 4 years.BTW-Manning, over his entire 12 year career has averaged the same numbers as Brees has over his great 4 years. That is why he is still significantly ahead of Brees. Sustained excellence.

 

[Bayhawks]

Ok, no, looking for comments and discussion, so thanks.>Over their careers, Manning is ahead< I agree, hence I limited it.Thanks.

When you contend that Brees belongs in the same class as Manning, you are taking it to a career level, and Brees isn't there yet. If you were honestly looking for comment and discussion, why did you respond to my initial post with the following?

All I can to this is, Brees has:2007 -> NFL Record for completions.2008 -> one pass away from tying Marino's incredible record for passing yards in a season.2009 -> NFL record for completion percentage.2009 -> Super Bowl Record for completion percentage and a near perfect 15 for 17 in the second half, 29 foir 32 to close (two drops and a spike being the incompletions), scoring on 6 of 7 drives to close against what was a 14-0 team led by PManning himself (the lone missed drive being a stop on the 1 yard line). This is one of the all time great NFL Championship performances.

Those show that Brees got a HUGE amount of attempts in 2007 & 2008 (two of the top 5 single season attempt totals), and that he was extremely accurate in 2009 (a full 6% better completion percentage than his career average), and that he had a great SB. That's a very defensive post, especially when you consider that you were responding to a post where I said Brees was the equal of Manning. If you were asking who had a better 2009, I'd said Brees (I don't think Manning should have won the MVP over Brees, Favre, OR Chris Johnson). If you were asking who had a better 2008, I'd say Brees. If you were asking who had a better 2007, I'd say Manning. If you were asking who had a better 2006, I'd say Manning.As I've said, Brees' 4 year span and Manning's 4 year span are close. I originally called it a push, but you could legitimately argue that Manning had the better 4 years.