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[DYNASTY] 2009 Top 12 Rookie Rankings (1 Viewer)

moreno at 6 and 9 is pretty crazy. hes put up over 1000 yards rushing in his two seasons starting at UGA, behind a true freshman line, and a freshman and soph line this year ( injuries ). the only other UGA player to do this feat was herschel walker. knowshown will run in the 4.48 range at the combine, or might elect not to run at all... in PPR, hes going to go #1 or 2, if he doesnt go there in your drafts, youre getting a steal.
I think Crabtree, Maclin, Harvin, and Shady all have elite potential. RB's and WR's with elite potential get ranked above everyone else on my board. I think Moreno has a Marshawn Lynch-like ceiling, which is good but not great, unless any of the above players end up in horrendous situations and Moreno ends up in a great one he won't leap frog any of them on my board. I can see a case being made for Moreno 5th, if he falls into a good situation and Greene does not I will undoubtebly switch them on my board. The only player outside of the top 4 I see with elite potential is Beanie Wells, but his frightenly high bust risk due to high levels of Charmin in his game will keep him far away from my top 5, regardless of where he goes.
I won't disagree with that, but what do you see in Greene that warrants a higher pick right now?I see nothing wrong with drafting a 15RB range back with a top 4 rookie pick. IMO his bust potential is lower than most, even McCoy.
I'm partial to tough, physical, between the tackles warriors, just a personal preference. I believe he will be the goal line option wherever he goes and will earn his way into the good side of a committee. If he proves to be an asset in the passing game a la Marion Barber, great. If not, oh well, I have a Michael Turner/Rudi Johnson/Brandon Jacobs type. Which is absolutely fine, I prefer that sort of floor/ceiling than I do Moreno's. That said, a lot can change over the next few months, it's still early in the offseason.
 
Ted Ginn Jr.Rod GardnerMichael ClaytonKevin DysonR. Jay SowardCraig DavisDennis NorthcuttReggie WilliamsThose first round busts group together because they're similar on two measurements. The next guy on this list? Jeremy Maclin. I think he'll be a wasted pick and an epic fail in the NFL.(And this is as good a place as any to give EBF a tip of the hat. A comment he made last year about me being wrong about Reggie Brown helped me find the second measure. Unfortunately not before I'd acquired Reggie Brown in all my leagues.)
Care to tell us what those 2 measurements are?
:football:
 
New list coming after the combine. I think I have a pretty good handle on the WRs now, but I'm very eager to see how this RB class performs in testing. It might seem trivial, but the track record of RBs who are picked in the first round AND have excellent combine numbers has been very strong lately.

On a different note, I'm also curious why wdcrob thinks Maclin will be a bust. To these eyeballs he looks like a phenomenal WR prospect with all of the physical tools and football skills needed to become a productive starter in the NFL.

 
New list coming after the combine. I think I have a pretty good handle on the WRs now, but I'm very eager to see how this RB class performs in testing. It might seem trivial, but the track record of RBs who are picked in the first round AND have excellent combine numbers has been very strong lately. On a different note, I'm also curious why wdcrob thinks Maclin will be a bust. To these eyeballs he looks like a phenomenal WR prospect with all of the physical tools and football skills needed to become a productive starter in the NFL.
Which of the top WR prospects do you think will bust? I'm guessing most will say Heyward-Bey because of how raw he is.
 
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New list coming after the combine. I think I have a pretty good handle on the WRs now, but I'm very eager to see how this RB class performs in testing. It might seem trivial, but the track record of RBs who are picked in the first round AND have excellent combine numbers has been very strong lately. On a different note, I'm also curious why wdcrob thinks Maclin will be a bust. To these eyeballs he looks like a phenomenal WR prospect with all of the physical tools and football skills needed to become a productive starter in the NFL.
Which of the top WR prospects do you think will bust? I'm guessing most will say Heyward-Bey because of how raw he is.
Yea, DHB is the obvious pick. He didn't have top production like most of these guys and he seems like the biggest enigma. I actually really, really like this WR class. I think Crabtree, Maclin, and Harvin would all be excellent picks almost anywhere in the first round of a PPR rookie draft.
 
I'm only going to talk about half my reason for disliking Maclin (since it's already out there). He falls into the dead zone in terms of body type.

Given that we don't have official measurements from the combine I wouldn't be so definitive on that if it weren't for the fact that he fails the other test too. Can I explain exactly why this works? I can't. It just does.

Here are the guys from 1998-2006 that passed both tests at the time of the combine, and subsequently maintained a useful body type.

Randy Moss

Torry Holt

Kevin Johnson

Donald Driver

Peter Warrick

Plaxico Burress

Dez White

Darrell Jackson

Reggie Wayne

Chad Johnson

Steve Smith

Deion Branch

Anquan Boldin

Larry Fitzgerald

Roy Williams

Lee Evans

Devery Henderson

Vincent Jackson

Greg Jennings

Brandon Marshall

Marques Colston

That's something like 18-22 hits - damn good for WRs. And notice that it includes a ton of later-drafted WRs too.

Now compare that list to the list of first round picks who failed both tests...

Ted Ginn Jr.

Rod Gardner

Michael Clayton

Kevin Dyson

R. Jay Soward

Craig Davis

Dennis Northcutt

Reggie Williams

And try to remember what people thought about that second list at the time they were drafted rather than what you know now.

It's a lot trickier than this since though since you're dealing with 21 year old guys who are still changing weights. Here's the list of guys who started out passing both tests but changed weight enough to move out of a 'good' category:

David Boston

(S) Jerry Porter

Sylvester Morris

Jabar Gaffney

Charles Rogers

Rashaun Woods

Mike Williams

Mark Clayton

I can't explain more than this right now, but Maclin fits in that second group using this method. I'd bet a non-trivial amount of money that he doesn't have a long career as a WR1.

 
Interesting.

The one name you seem to be missing is roddy white. He was a 1st rounder and he isn't in the 'Passed' category or 'Failed' category.

 
Eh, it seems like a lot of hocus pocus. There are many reasons why prospects fail. Charles Rogers had all the talent needed to be successful. He was just a lazy bum who didn't care about football once he got his paycheck. By the time he washed out of Detroit, he had gone from a 4.3 guy to a 4.7 guy.

R. Jay Soward is a notorious headcase. He had plenty of football ability, but he also had the work ethic and intelligence of a rock. Tom Coughlin had to send a limo to his house just to make sure he'd find his way to practice on time.

Maclin is built like Reggie Wayne, Chad Johnson, and Greg Jennings. I don't see his body type as cause for concern. If anything, he looks like a prototypical vertical WR.

 
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:pics: You read ahead of the class, Awesomeness.

Roddy White is the LONE exception of a guy who made it despite having a poor type. One possibility is that his listed weight hasn't been updated recently and he's actually playing at something like 212 or 213.

But I think what's actually going on is that the right body type and the second variable work in combination. So the wrong body type provides a big negative, but isn't a pure 1/0 variable that determines if a player will be good or bad. You need both variables.

 
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Maclin is built like Reggie Wayne, Chad Johnson, and Greg Jennings. I don't see his body type as cause for concern. If anything, he looks like a prototypical vertical WR.
Wayne and Jennings are similar.Chad Johnson has one of two absolutely ideal types (Fitz and AJ have the other), but it's different than Wayne's and Jennings's.Maclin falls into a dead zone in-between them. The margins are a lot finer than you'd believe.And I'll make a bet with you on this EBF: awarding one point for every season Maclin's PPG (PPR) finish ranks him between 29 and 42 (WR3), awarding two points for every season Maclin's PPG ranks him between 15 and 28 (WR2) and awarding three points for every season Maclin finishes top 14 (WR1)... Maclin definitely won't score ten points in his entire career. (And he might not score five.)
 
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Maclin is built like Reggie Wayne, Chad Johnson, and Greg Jennings. I don't see his body type as cause for concern. If anything, he looks like a prototypical vertical WR.
Wayne and Jennings are similar.Chad Johnson has one of two absolutely ideal types (Fitz and AJ have the other), but it's different than Wayne's and Jennings's.Maclin falls into a dead zone in-between them. The margins are a lot finer than you'd believe.
Or maybe the margins don't exist and there just hasn't been a recent prospect with Maclin's body who had comparable physical gifts and football talent. I like combine numbers as much as anyone, but I trust my eyeballs above all else. This guy sure looks like the real deal to me.One of the things I learned from this draft class is to make exceptions for exceptional players. I knew DeSean Jackson was a great football player, but I was wary of him because I didn't think a WR that size could make consistent contributions. Woops. I knew Chris Johnson had some of the best combine numbers from any RB in recent memory, but I didn't think a RB that small could handle a full workload. Woops. Now maybe Maclin will be a huge bust, but the fact that he's 5 pounds above or below some imagined ideal doesn't dampen my enthusiasm.
 
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One nice thing about this if I'm right is that draft position becomes almost irrelevant. (Which means that the market is ridiculously inefficient.)

And (if I'm right) that makes comparing players before you know where they're drafted fairly straightforward. Maclin compares mostly closely to Craig Davis and Keary Colbert.

 
I appreciate the work you do and I think there's value in trying to create an objective measure of prospect quality, but I don't think you've found the holy grail just yet.

Maclin compares mostly closely to Craig Davis and Keary Colbert.
Frankly, I just don't buy that. I've seen all three of them play quite a bit. Colbert was a smallish WR who didn't have any playing speed. Davis was a head-scratching reach in the first round. I don't think he's as fast, fluid, or strong as Maclin. When I see Maclin play, I don't see Craig Davis or Keary Colbert AT ALL. Now maybe they look similar on paper, but this is where the eyeball test comes in. Good players jump off the screen in a way that mediocre talents simply don't. Watch this Maclin video from 6:04-7:12.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nA619-10IIM

Holy mackerel, that's an impressive athlete. I've NEVER seen Davis or Colbert flash that kind of speed and athletic ability. Granted, there weren't a lot of precise routes or highlight reel catches in those clips, but this kid just oozes talent.

 
Colbert was 72 5/8ths inches tall and weighed 201 at the combine

Maclin is projected at 72 6/8ths and 200

Using Maclin's pre-combine estimates they're virtually identically sized.

btw... these two variables explain why the 40-yard time is irrelevant for WRs. You can throw it out - it has ZERO to do with being a successful WR. (ETA: as long as you can break 4.7 or so!)

 
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Colbert was 72 5/8ths inches tall and weighed 201 at the combine.Maclin is projected at 72 6/8ths and 200Using Maclin's pre-combine estimates they're virtually identically sized.
Yes, but their playing styles and body compositions are different. The major difference is that Maclin has :confused: type speed and quickness. He's the best player on Mizzou. Colbert was just a role player for USC. He was the steady WR2 who occasionally made a great catch, but never showed the kind of eye-opening athletic ability to make you think he was destined for NFL stardom. All you have to do is read a scouting report to see that they have virtually nothing in common aside from measurables.
 
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More important than finding an exact body type measurement is understanding why certain bigger types and smaller types would be successful over someone who is "in between." The major skills for WR (in some order) are catching the ball, running routes, running after the catch, beating press covering and quickness out of the breaks. Of these beating press coverage would be the one where size has the most influence, essentaiily the ways to beat press coverage are strength, quickness and gulie. Guile has nothing to go with size, but if the hypothesis has any merit it would because players in a certain range are not either big/strong enough to win battles that way or not quick enough to gain advantage.

 
The major difference is that Maclin has :confused: type speed and quickness. He's the best player in Mizzou. Colbert was just a role player for USC. He was the steady WR2 who occasionally made a great catch, but never showed the kind of eye-opening athletic ability to make you think he was destined for NFL stardom. All you have to do is read a scouting report to see that they have virtually nothing in common aside from measurables.
All that explains why Colbert was a late 2nd round pick instead of a mid 1st. What I'm trying to say is that all that stuff isn't very important and it's why teams make such terrible errors.
 
More important than finding an exact body type measurement is understanding why certain bigger types and smaller types would be successful over someone who is "in between." The major skills for WR (in some order) are catching the ball, running routes, running after the catch, beating press covering and quickness out of the breaks. Of these beating press coverage would be the one where size has the most influence, essentaiily the ways to beat press coverage are strength, quickness and gulie. Guile has nothing to go with size, but if the hypothesis has any merit it would because players in a certain range are not either big/strong enough to win battles that way or not quick enough to gain advantage.
That's exactly what I think Coolnerd. You either have to have size to power through and shield the DB, or the ability to change direction very quickly and lose him. Having said that... there really do appear to be fairly well defined sizes for where each of these successful builds are. I've tweaked them a bit since the article was published, but the margins still appear to be pretty small.
 
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The major difference is that Maclin has :confused: type speed and quickness. He's the best player in Mizzou. Colbert was just a role player for USC. He was the steady WR2 who occasionally made a great catch, but never showed the kind of eye-opening athletic ability to make you think he was destined for NFL stardom. All you have to do is read a scouting report to see that they have virtually nothing in common aside from measurables.
All that explains why Colbert was a late 2nd round pick instead of a mid 1st. What I'm trying to say is that all that stuff isn't very important and it's why teams make such terrible errors.
I think teams make mistakes when they look at the numbers and not the players, which is sort like what you're doing right now. Combine numbers don't tell the whole story. Chad Johnson ran a 4.6. Jason Hill ran a 4.3. On the football field, Chad Johnson plays MUCH faster than Jason Hill. This is not something that's evident if all you're doing is looking at the measurables and the testing. If your system says Maclin is similar to Craig Davis and Keary Colbert, then all this tells me is that your system isn't very accurate. And maybe that's the problem with the objective approach: it ignores any and all qualitative input. It misses things that a healthy set of eyeballs will pick up.
 
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And maybe that's the problem with the objective approach: it ignores any and all qualitative input. It misses things that a healthy set of eyeballs will pick up.
They said the same thing about baseball players until Billy Beane picked up Bill James work and proved them all wrong.
 
And maybe that's the problem with the objective approach: it ignores any and all qualitative input. It misses things that a healthy set of eyeballs will pick up.
They said the same thing about baseball players until Billy Beane picked up Bill James work and proved them all wrong.
I didn't say it's impossible, but I don't think you're there yet. Many of your shining examples from last season didn't pan out (Brandon Jackson, Chris Henry, and Reggie Brown) and the Maclin/Davis/Colbert parallel tells me you still have a long way to go. Anyone who's seen those guys play won't buy that comparison for a New York minute.
 
And maybe that's the problem with the objective approach: it ignores any and all qualitative input. It misses things that a healthy set of eyeballs will pick up.
They said the same thing about baseball players until Billy Beane picked up Bill James work and proved them all wrong.
I didn't say it's impossible, but I don't think you're there yet. Many of your shining examples from last season didn't pan out (Brandon Jackson, Chris Henry, and Reggie Brown) and the Maclin/Davis/Colbert parallel tells me you still have a long way to go. Anyone who's seen those guys play won't buy that comparison for a New York minute.
I'm going to update my predictions from a year ago. With the WRs I was only halfway there. With RBs it was a bit further than that, but I was still missing something important and actually improved on the part I did have.btw... I still believe Brandon Jackson can play. Chris Henry and Reggie Brown not so much.
 
More important than finding an exact body type measurement is understanding why certain bigger types and smaller types would be successful over someone who is "in between." The major skills for WR (in some order) are catching the ball, running routes, running after the catch, beating press covering and quickness out of the breaks. Of these beating press coverage would be the one where size has the most influence, essentaiily the ways to beat press coverage are strength, quickness and gulie. Guile has nothing to go with size, but if the hypothesis has any merit it would because players in a certain range are not either big/strong enough to win battles that way or not quick enough to gain advantage.
That's exactly what I think Coolnerd. You either have to have size to power through and shield the DB, or the ability to change direction very quickly and lose him. Having said that... there really do appear to be fairly well defined sizes for where each of these successful builds are. I've tweaked them a bit since the article was published, but the margins still appear to be pretty small.
the danger with concerning yourself with the range is mising a player who is in the wrong range who has exceptional quickness or unusual strength for his size or upgrading players have the correct size but are not as quick or strong as they should be. As with the BMI stuff for RBs, size is not static and we have only one day (combine) where we can trust the measurements. and even then players add or drop pounds intentionally. I think there is no way of getting around actually seeing football players play, and having to judge skills.
 
the Maclin/Davis/Colbert parallel tells me you still have a long way to go. Anyone who's seen those guys play won't buy that comparison for a New York minute.
The comparison is talent not playing style and etc.
If so, I still think it's off. Maclin is on a plane above those two. Even the most loyal USC homer would probably admit that they never expected Colbert to become anything more than a Josh Reed/Bobby Wade type at the NFL. He simply wasn't a standout player.

Davis is more athletic than Colbert, but he's not a particularly special talent. He was the second or third best WR on his own college team. I don't think LSU fans felt he was destined for great things at the pro level.

Maclin is a bona fide star. In many ways, he was the focal point of the entire Missouri offense (and there are some pretty good prospects on that team). Ask a Mizzou homer about his skills and you'll probably hear rave reviews.

You cited Billy Beane and Bill James, but I think it raises an important point: football isn't nearly as objective as baseball. In baseball, the hitter's job is pretty simple: get on base and score runs. When the hitter is up to bat, he's up there all by himself. Whether or not he fails or succeeds depends almost entirely on him and him alone.

That's nothing like football, where every play involves 22 players and a player's goals on any given play vary wildly depending on his coaching staff, his team, and the game situation. A good quarterback can improve your stats. An aggressive system can give you more big play opportunities. A conservative coach can cripple your effectiveness. A particular gameplan can exclude you almost entirely. There are so many variables at work that it's very hard to look at football stats as an objective indicator of a player's performance. So while you can generally conclude that a baseball player who hits .230 is doing terribly, you can't look at a wide receiver who catches 40 passes in a 16 game season and conclude the same thing. In fact, he may be playing exceptionally well. He may just be the victim of circumstance whereas someone who catches 80 passes might simply be the beneficiary of a friendly scheme.

You can look at combine numbers and stats all you want, but that doesn't mean you'll ever be able to connect the dots and find a way to objectively analyze a player's football ability. Chad Johnson is 6'1" 197 pounds. Reggie Brown is 6'1" 196 pounds. Chad was the 36th pick in the 2001 draft. Reggie was the 35th pick in the 2005 draft. Does this make them identical?

Combine numbers only tell part of the story and football stats aren't a very accurate indicator of performance and potential, so I think you have very tough sledding ahead of you if you want to devise an objective system that will yield accurate predictions about prospect quality. It's a nice idea, but I'm not convinced that it will ever be more effective than a keen set of eyeballs armed with a good amount of knowledge. Where a piece of paper says Jeremy Maclin = Keary Colbert, a set of eyeballs can immediately dismiss that comparison as ridiculous.

 
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the danger with concerning yourself with the range is mising a player who is in the wrong range who has exceptional quickness or unusual strength for his size or upgrading players have the correct size but are not as quick or strong as they should be. As with the BMI stuff for RBs, size is not static and we have only one day (combine) where we can trust the measurements. and even then players add or drop pounds intentionally. I think there is no way of getting around actually seeing football players play, and having to judge skills.
I disagree with this as far as WRs go. There is an exception (Roddy White), but it's pretty clear that build is a way of measuring some of the things you're talking about and virtually all of the really good ones fit a 'mold.' That's not to say guys who don't fit can't have a career - just that they're very unlikely to be great/WR1s.
 
You can look at combine numbers and stats all you want, but that doesn't mean you'll ever be able to connect the dots and find a way to objectively analyze a player's football ability. Chad Johnson is 6'1" 197 pounds. Reggie Brown is 6'1" 196 pounds. Chad was the 36th pick in the 2001 draft. Reggie was the 35th pick in the 2005 draft. Does this make them identical?
Last year I would have said 'yes.' Actually, last year I DID say 'yes.' :goodposting:But I was missing something important.
 
Honestly Rob, I think you'd find a more interested audience if you shared your opinions instead of hiding them because you're afraid a league mate will steal them before a rookie draft. Almost all of the good "talent scouts" on here are confident enough in their opinions to share them without worrying about whether or not they win a fantasy league. Just a thought.

 
the Maclin/Davis/Colbert parallel tells me you still have a long way to go. Anyone who's seen those guys play won't buy that comparison for a New York minute.
The comparison is talent not playing style and etc.
If so, I still think it's off. Maclin is on a plane above those two. Even the most loyal USC homer would probably admit that they never expected Colbert to become anything more than a Josh Reed/Bobby Wade type at the NFL. He simply wasn't a standout player.

Davis is more athletic than Colbert, but he's not a particularly special talent. He was the second or third best WR on his own college team. I don't think LSU fans felt he was destined for great things at the pro level.

Maclin is a bona fide star. In many ways, he was the focal point of the entire Missouri offense (and there are some pretty good prospects on that team). Ask a Mizzou homer about his skills and you'll probably hear rave reviews.

You cited Billy Beane and Bill James, but I think it raises an important point: football isn't nearly as objective as baseball. In baseball, the hitter's job is pretty simple: get on base and score runs. When the hitter is up to bat, he's up there all by himself. Whether or not he fails or succeeds depends almost entirely on him and him alone.

That's nothing like football, where every play involves 22 players and a player's goals on any given play vary wildly depending on his coaching staff, his team, and the game situation. A good quarterback can improve your stats. An aggressive system can give you more big play opportunities. A conservative coach can cripple your effectiveness. A particular gameplan can exclude you almost entirely. There are so many variables at work that it's very hard to look at football stats as an objective indicator of a player's performance. So while you can generally conclude that a baseball player who hits .230 is doing terribly, you can't look at a wide receiver who catches 40 passes in a 16 game season and conclude the same thing. In fact, he may be playing exceptionally well. He may just be the victim of circumstance whereas someone who catches 80 passes might simply be the beneficiary of a friendly scheme.

You can look at combine numbers and stats all you want, but that doesn't mean you'll ever be able to connect the dots and find a way to objectively analyze a player's football ability. Chad Johnson is 6'1" 197 pounds. Reggie Brown is 6'1" 196 pounds. Chad was the 36th pick in the 2001 draft. Reggie was the 35th pick in the 2005 draft. Does this make them identical?

Combine numbers only tell part of the story and football stats aren't a very accurate indicator of performance and potential, so I think you have very tough sledding ahead of you if you want to devise an objective system that will yield accurate predictions about prospect quality. It's a nice idea, but I'm not convinced that it will ever be more effective than a keen set of eyeballs armed with a good amount of knowledge. Where a piece of paper says Jeremy Maclin = Keary Colbert, a set of eyeballs can immediately dismiss that comparison as ridiculous.
While I tend to agree with EBF on the qualitative VS. quantitative analysis argument, there is some interesting research out there that tries to objectify things in the spirit of the Bill James. I'm sure some of you are familiar with Aaron Shatz whose research does try to compare teams and players to each other based on particular situations, because, like EBF said ( and we all know), one player's success is widely determined by specific circumstances.wdcrob's research on past statistics trying to predict future is an interesting concept, but I'm getting the idea that the "statistics" are not rooted in true football measurements. I know EBF is as big a fan of anyone in validating NFL-level talent through combine numbers, and body type (BMI), but I have to agree that the eyeball test can be a huge factor in differentiating between players who may have similar physical or timed measurements.

I do agree with wdcrob that the 40 time is an overrated tool as far as evaluating WRs, but are you really discounting players based on only two factors, one being weight?

 
I do agree with wdcrob that the 40 time is an overrated tool as far as evaluating WRs, but are you really discounting players based on only two factors, one being weight?
Not exactly... weight's just the part of variable that can change.If you plot exact height (to 1/8ths of an inch) vs exact BMI (to 1/10th of a unit) on a grid you find that virtually ALL elite WRs fit into one of four relatively small areas. Only about 40% of all WRs fit into those categories, yet virtually all the good ones are there.Since weight can change though, a fair number of players move in and out of those areas after the combine. Or at various points throughout their careers.This was actually written up and published in Football Outsider's (Aaron Schatz's) publication last year.
 
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I do agree with wdcrob that the 40 time is an overrated tool as far as evaluating WRs, but are you really discounting players based on only two factors, one being weight?
Not exactly... weight's just the part of variable that can change.If you plot exact height (to 1/8ths of an inch) vs exact BMI (to 1/10th of a unit) on a grid you find that virtually ALL elite WRs fit into one of four relatively small areas. Only about 40% of all WRs fit into those categories, yet virtually all the good ones are there.Since weight can change though, a fair number of players move in and out of those areas after the combine. Or at various points throughout their careers.This was actually written up and published in Football Outsider's (Aaron Schatz's) publication last year.
BMI is height and weight. I don't see why Schatz is plotting height some more?
 
I do agree with wdcrob that the 40 time is an overrated tool as far as evaluating WRs, but are you really discounting players based on only two factors, one being weight?
Not exactly... weight's just the part of variable that can change.If you plot exact height (to 1/8ths of an inch) vs exact BMI (to 1/10th of a unit) on a grid you find that virtually ALL elite WRs fit into one of four relatively small areas. Only about 40% of all WRs fit into those categories, yet virtually all the good ones are there.Since weight can change though, a fair number of players move in and out of those areas after the combine. Or at various points throughout their careers.This was actually written up and published in Football Outsider's (Aaron Schatz's) publication last year.
I've read your work. Based on the research and the table that you put together the results were quite remarkable. I must ask have you improved your system to account for it's 2 biggest misses - Roddy and Calvin? Did Calvin change his weight enough to put him in one of your coveted boxes? Thanks in advance.
 
I must ask have you improved your system to account for it's 2 biggest misses - Roddy and Calvin? Did Calvin change his weight enough to put him in one of your coveted boxes? Thanks in advance.
Hi Steed - I think you're only the second or third person that I know of that actually read the article! Glad you thought it was interesting.White is still a bit of an enigma, but he's really (really!) exceptional on the other measure. So you might be able to 'overcome' the build deficiency. But he's the only one that's done that - so it's hard to tell. He could just be a fluke - I can live with one in ten years.As for Calvin... I think the 'thick' box (BMI ~28-29) actually runs across all heights now - not just the range that appeared in the article. On the short side you have Marty Booker, Santana Moss and Deion Branch and on the tall side you have Vincent Jackson and Calvin Johnson (and probably Shannon Sharpe). I'm pretty confident in the other boxes - except for exactly where the lowest effective BMI in the 'Slight' category is.
 
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I must ask have you improved your system to account for it's 2 biggest misses - Roddy and Calvin? Did Calvin change his weight enough to put him in one of your coveted boxes? Thanks in advance.
Hi Steed - I think you're only the second or third person that I know of that actually read the article! Glad you thought it was interesting.White is still a bit of an enigma, but he's really (really!) exceptional on the other measure. So you might be able to 'overcome' the build deficiency. But he's the only one that's done that - so it's hard to tell. He could just be a fluke - I can live with one in ten years.

As for Calvin... I think the 'thick' box (BMI ~28-29) actually runs across all heights now - not just the range that appeared in the article. On the short side you have Marty Booker, Santana Moss and Deion Branch and on the tall side you have Vincent Jackson and Calvin Johnson (and probably Shannon Sharpe).

I'm pretty confident in the other boxes - except for exactly where the lowest effective BMI in the 'Slight' category is.
So is this your work or Aaron Schatz' work?
 
Would I be letting the cat out of the bag by saying the article in question is "Wide Receivers: Size Matters" by Rob Pitzer. It is in Aaron Schatz' Pro football Perspectus: 2008, which can be purchased (now for a deep discount) at Amazon. There are a number of other interesting essays in the book as well.

OK now Rob..................when are you going to have part II (the other variable) published?

 
Just a little note, Mike Mayock has Mike Goodson as his #5 RB now. Any opinions on this guy, I haven't seen him play at all.

 
Just a little note, Mike Mayock has Mike Goodson as his #5 RB now. Any opinions on this guy, I haven't seen him play at all.
He's a good athlete, but he's kind a RB/WR tweener. I wouldn't expect much unless he absolutely rips up the combine and lands on a team that doesn't have any good RBs. He's probably a third round pick at best in the NFL draft.
 
Just a little note, Mike Mayock has Mike Goodson as his #5 RB now. Any opinions on this guy, I haven't seen him play at all.
He's a good athlete, but he's kind a RB/WR tweener. I wouldn't expect much unless he absolutely rips up the combine and lands on a team that doesn't have any good RBs. He's probably a third round pick at best in the NFL draft.
He's also a goon. I think that's just Mayock trying to say he doesn't really like anyone past the top 4 guys.
 
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And maybe that's the problem with the objective approach: it ignores any and all qualitative input. It misses things that a healthy set of eyeballs will pick up.
They said the same thing about baseball players until Billy Beane picked up Bill James work and proved them all wrong.
But Billy Beane/Bill James numbers weren't reflective of ideal heights/weights/builds they were reflective of what the studied players actually accomplished on the field.
 
FWIW Scott Wright of DraftCountdown.com upgraded Mike Goodson (Texas A & M) to #6 on his list of RBs as of January 30th. He is around or just under 6'0" 195-200# is super fast (I'm guessing low or sub 4.4) and very quick. Had 847 rushing yards as a freshman (6.7 ypc) along with 17 catches for 113 yards , 711 rushing yd, 361 receiving yds on 36 catches as a Soph, and only 406 rushing yds - but also 386 receiving yards on 37 catches in 10 games this last year as a Junior. He was injured and missed games during parts of last year and this year (sprained MCL). Watching him run makes me think more than a little of Reggie Bush - right down to the knee injuries part).

Freshman year highlights are at

I just got done watching his videos and Scott's runs at the TX V Nation game. VERY similar styles. If Goodson can stay healthy in the NFL, he definitely has the "wow factor" - hard to bring down for a small back, great lean, great feet and great vision. He reminds me more of Chris Johnson than he does of Reggie Bush. i see why both Wright and Mayock have him so high. But Goodson comes with a high risk factor. He was constantly 'dinged up' in his Soph and JR years and his ypc dropped to about 4 1/2 his last 2 yrs.

 
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I'm wondering how closely you think Goodson compares (talent-wise) with the RB from less than 100 miles away at Abiline Christian who showed so well at Tx V Nation, Bernard Scott. They seem to be almost identical in Ht/Wt and in quicks.

You guys might like this interesting read about Scott, who has a record of 5 arrests and attended 4 different colleges:

Since high school, Bernard Scott has been running for another chance.

He did not play his senior season after being involved in an off-field fight. He has been arrested at least five times and is finishing 18 months of probation for giving false information to a police officer during a traffic stop. He is attending his fourth college since 2003.

But his explosive ability as a running back has provided ample opportunities for redemption, the latest one at Abilene Christian University. During a 93-68 victory last Saturday against West Texas A&M, Scott accounted for 353 all-purpose yards and 7 touchdowns. A 5-foot-11, 200-pound senior, Scott leads N.C.A.A. Division II in scoring (17.5 points a game) and all-purpose yards (248.8). And he is one of eight finalists for the Harlon Hill Trophy, which is given to the top player in Division II.

Although Scott's talent has never been questioned, his off-field behavior could pose concerns for N.F.L. teams.

"Some people might hold it against me or whatever," he said. "But it made me a better person, because I've learned from my mistakes."

Candid when interviewed about some of his past legal troubles, Scott, 24, failed to mention that he was arrested June 28 on a misdemeanor charge of fleeing a police officer in his hometown, Vernon, Tex. He posted $750 bond, and the case is pending. Abilene Christian Coach Chris Thomsen said he was unaware of the incident.

"I wouldn't have him on my team or wouldn't have him on our campus if I didn't trust the kid," Thomsen said. "I've seen him grow immensely as a football player and a person."

After abruptly leaving Southeastern Oklahoma State University following a redshirt season, Scott transferred to the University of Central Arkansas in 2004. He rushed for 1,026 yards and 11 touchdowns and was named the Gulf South Conference freshman of the year before being dismissed. Central Arkansas Coach Clint Conque said he removed Scott for striking a coach who tried to break up a fight on the field in the spring of 2005. Scott denied that he hit a coach.

"He's a tremendous, tremendous football player," Conque said by telephone. "He hates school, doesn't trust a lot of people and obviously has some anger issues. I'm hoping that he's matured some, but he maybe is one of the best pure running backs as far as balance, skills sets, vision and elusiveness."

After a stint trimming trees in Florida, Scott returned home in 2005. While there, he said, he did not work and hung out with a rough crowd. "I was just running around doing foolish stuff," he said. Scott resurfaced in 2006 at Blinn College in Texas, where he rushed for 1,892 yards and 27 touchdowns. He was named the most valuable player in his team's national junior college championship victory. He was also charged that year with stealing an iPod, a misdemeanor offense that was dismissed with his participation in a pretrial diversion program.

Yet Scott still attracted attention from Arkansas, Fresno State, Miami and Texas Tech. Academically ineligible to play in Division I, he transferred to Abilene Christian because of his relationship with its coach. Thomsen knew Scott in high school and was an assistant coach at Central Arkansas during his lone season there in 2004.

Last season, Scott rushed for 2,165 yards and had 39 touchdowns, breaking the team's single-season scoring record held by Wilbert Montgomery, who went on to become the Philadelphia Eagles' leading rusher. His touchdown production was also a Division II record.

"When he gets out in the open, it's over," Southeastern Oklahoma State Coach Ray Richards said in a telephone interview. "He's like Barry Sanders. You can contain him, contain him, contain him, and then all of a sudden, it's over."

On talent alone, Scott could be a late first-day pick in April's N.F.L. draft, said Gil Brandt, a pro football analyst.

"Everybody likes him," Brandt said. "But they all keep their mouths shut."

[My observation - with his past, and you have to worry about his 'anger issues', IMO he is very high risk for dynasty fantasy purposes. I think he has some severe emotional problems which will manifest sooner rather than later in his NFL career. Too bad the Cowboys drafted Felix Jones last year, because Scott seems like a perfect Jerry Jones type of player.]

 
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FWIW Scott Wright of DraftCountdown.com upgraded Mike Goodson (Texas A & M) to #6 on his list of RBs as of January 30th. He is around or just under 6'0" 195-200# is super fast (I'm guessing low or sub 4.4) and very quick. Had 847 rushing yards as a freshman (6.7 ypc) along with 17 catches for 113 yards , 711 rushing yd, 361 receiving yds on 36 catches as a Soph, and only 406 rushing yds - but also 386 receiving yards on 37 catches in 10 games this last year as a Junior. He was injured and missed games during parts of last year and this year (sprained MCL). Watching him run makes me think more than a little of Reggie Bush - right down to the knee injuries part).

Freshman year highlights are at

I definitely see the CJ comparisons. The thing that always impressed me most about CJ was not just his speed, but his balance and acceleration. It wasn't just that he had breakaway speed, but that he cut easily and got back to that top speed. As I posted last year, CJ was not only one of the top 40s of any starting RB, but he also had the best ratio of 10 yd vs. 40 yard. That is, the first 10 yards accounted for the closest to 25% of the total time, which means he was up to full-speed almost instantly.I see a little of that in Goodson particularly the second link. The ability to change direction and maintain/regain that speed is evident. I haven't watched him much, but theone thing about CJ is that he was incredibly productive that last year...

 
The history of these character question-mark guys isn't so hot though. Just off the top of my head... RBs who had major red flags of one sort or another pre-draft...

Lawrence Phillips

Onterrio Smith

Maurice Clarett

Cecil Collins

William Green

And even if you think one Randy Moss makes up for all that, but I don't think I'd burn a high pick on one of these guys.

 
The history of these character question-mark guys isn't so hot though. Just off the top of my head... RBs who had major red flags of one sort or another pre-draft...Lawrence PhillipsOnterrio SmithMaurice ClarettCecil CollinsWilliam GreenAnd even if you think one Randy Moss makes up for all that, but I don't think I'd burn a high pick on one of these guys.
Sure but if he falls to a late round 1st round/early 2nd (depending on where he falls), that upside could be worthwhile.
 
The history of these character question-mark guys isn't so hot though. Just off the top of my head... RBs who had major red flags of one sort or another pre-draft...Lawrence PhillipsOnterrio SmithMaurice ClarettCecil CollinsWilliam GreenAnd even if you think one Randy Moss makes up for all that, but I don't think I'd burn a high pick on one of these guys.
Sure but if he falls to a late round 1st round/early 2nd (depending on where he falls), that upside could be worthwhile.
Maybe a late 2nd or 3rd or something like that. But I want to hit more than 20-25% with my #1s if I'm an NFL team. First round picks are risky enough because they're so valuable and when you whiff it really hurts. No sense piling more risk onto that IMO. Unless you think you're dealing with a exceptionally elite talent (like Moss, btw) I just don't see how you can justify it.
 

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