[Dynasty] 2014 Draft Prospects (1 Viewer)

[Xue]

who is a good comp for seastrunk...

and how does mike evans game compare to that of alshon jeffery...

similar size, sounds like he will test slower, interested in movement skills...

I see a lot of McCoy comparisons for Seastrunk, but they are totally different builds. This isn't meant to be a slight, but, in terms of build and movement skills, Seastrunk reminds mostly of Jerome Harrison and JJ Arrington.

Evans reminds me of a taller Michael Floyd. He doesn't look any slower than Jeffery, though, who looks lumbering at times and rarely "separates" 1-on-1.

Not really sure what you mean, but Seastrunk is built pretty thickly, pretty low to the ground. Good weight distribution IMO, he's bottom heavy.

Exactly !!!

And McCoy is not. McCoy has a thinner build at 5'11" 204. More of a WR build.

http://lesterslegends.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/lesean-mccoy.jpg

 

[Bob Magaw]

thanx for the comps...

if the measurables cited on the freak list were accurate, it sounds like seastrunk could put some of the best numbers for the position in combine history (but maybe they aren't?)...

the reason i mentioned evans might test slower than jeffery (for similar sized, big WRs), is i thought jeffery ran a better than expected 4.4, but come to think of it, that may have been pro day (i forget if he didn't run at combine, or did but ran a slower 4.5?), which sometimes can be faster timed than under more controlled circumstances... is evans exxpected to run a 4.5 (which sounds plenty fast for his size)... i like floyd, though i thought he would have done more by now, but am still hopeful for his future... so i like that comp... floyd is a big WR, but not as big as evans (listed 6'2" 220), but ran a 4.4, and has pretty agile, fluid movement skills, so again, that is an impressive comp to me...

i thought EBF alluded to some concerns (reseervations?) about evans based on less than elite COD ability (how many WRs at his size do - maybe only calvin johnson?)... but my recollection is they were minor, and he definitely viewed him as first round worthy and one of top prospects in class, with watkins and lee?

big WRs like BMW (especially when weight wasn't under control) do look lumbering, and are glorified TEs...

i thought jeffery didn't look slow this year and has been somewhat of a breakout star, but i admittedly haven't seen a lot, mostly highlights and following the stats...

i suppose if front offices and dynasty players knew in advance that evans would do as well as jeffery by his second year, he would be a pretty valuable commodity...

the most talented big WRs almost make moot the importance of getting a lot of separation, because of their physical mismatch against smaller DBs, if they have a QB that can exploit this and take advantage by putting the ball in the right place, and the athleticism and body control to high point the ball, or use their bigger body to shield the ball, getting position like a power forward...

* 2014 mock from scott wright's draft countdown...

http://www.draftcountdown.com/sub/Mock-Draft-A.php

** is the consensus watkins, lee and evans are top 3 WRs, how would the thread order them?

 

[ConnSKINS26]

who is a good comp for seastrunk...

and how does mike evans game compare to that of alshon jeffery...

similar size, sounds like he will test slower, interested in movement skills...

I see a lot of McCoy comparisons for Seastrunk, but they are totally different builds. This isn't meant to be a slight, but, in terms of build and movement skills, Seastrunk reminds mostly of Jerome Harrison and JJ Arrington.

Evans reminds me of a taller Michael Floyd. He doesn't look any slower than Jeffery, though, who looks lumbering at times and rarely "separates" 1-on-1.

Not really sure what you mean, but Seastrunk is built pretty thickly, pretty low to the ground. Good weight distribution IMO, he's bottom heavy.

Exactly !!!

And McCoy is not. McCoy has a thinner build at 5'11" 204. More of a WR build.

http://lesterslegends.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/lesean-mccoy.jpg

McCoy's filled out a bit since then, I think he looks much more compact, and thicker, now than he did back then.

 

[Xue]

who is a good comp for seastrunk...

and how does mike evans game compare to that of alshon jeffery...

similar size, sounds like he will test slower, interested in movement skills...

I see a lot of McCoy comparisons for Seastrunk, but they are totally different builds. This isn't meant to be a slight, but, in terms of build and movement skills, Seastrunk reminds mostly of Jerome Harrison and JJ Arrington.

Evans reminds me of a taller Michael Floyd. He doesn't look any slower than Jeffery, though, who looks lumbering at times and rarely "separates" 1-on-1.

Not really sure what you mean, but Seastrunk is built pretty thickly, pretty low to the ground. Good weight distribution IMO, he's bottom heavy.

Exactly !!!

And McCoy is not. McCoy has a thinner build at 5'11" 204. More of a WR build.

http://lesterslegends.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/lesean-mccoy.jpg

McCoy's filled out a bit since then, I think he looks much more compact, and thicker, now than he did back then.

He looks the same to me. He's only listed at 208.

http://www3.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Lesean+Mccoy+Philadelphia+Eagles+v+Tampa+Bay+O6JFNGy0Fycl.jpg

Guys like Ray Rice and Ahmad Bradshaw are the only ones I can think off my head that truly bulked up once they got into the NFL. It rarely happens.

 

[loose circuits]

Is there a general consensus that 2015 represents a stronger class than 2014?

If so, is that a top to bottom difference (e.g. A deeper class) or at the top (e.g. Better early picks as compared to this year) or both? And are there a handful of identifiable players on the horizon that are future studs -- maybe Yeldon and/or Gurly?

Todd Gurley is my favorite RB prospect in some time. At least on par with Trent (at the time). Add Cooper, Davis, Yeldon, Drake, etc, and I do think 2015 is stronger. At least more top heavy.

lets not forget Jonathan Gray who is as good as any of those guys.Also, will Jeremy Hill wait a year to repair his reputation?

 

[Faust]

Smooth Sammy Watkins an easy projection at WR for NFL scouts


By Rob Rang | The Sports Xchange/CBSSports.com

October 26, 2013 7:15 pm ET

Every fan of the sport knows that there is a difference between timed speed and football speed. Football is rarely a game of straight-lines, making fluidity and general athleticism much more critical than just a 40-yard dash time.

In much this same way, some receivers possess a natural ability to pluck the ball, tuck it away and accelerate in one smooth motion that makes them even greater than the sum of their parts. Sammy Watkins is one such receiver.

The Clemson Tigers leaned heavily on Watkins early in their matchup with Maryland, with Tajh Boyd targeting him 12 times in the first half. He caught 10 of those passes for 127 yards to help stake Clemson to a 16-7 halftime lead. By comparison, Boyd's nine other completions of the first half nettedthe Tigers just 60 yards.

Watkins' production (14 catches for 163 yards) was critical to the Tigers' success in part because Boyd was hampered by a sore leg. As Maryland worried less about Boyd's threat as a runner they tightened against the pass, alternately blitzing and dropping back extra defenders into coverage. As a result, the senior quarterback struggled again with accuracy from the pocket, just as he did a week ago against Florida State.

As the game went on and it became increasingly obvious that Clemson was reliant on Watkins to make a big play, Maryland worked to take him out of the game. He caught only four passes in the second half with bracket coverage and linebackers dropping off into his zone frequently forcing Boyd to look elsewhere.

Watkins didn't help his own cause as he fumbled his 13th touch of the game, a quick receiver screen in which he failed to protect the ball with both hands. The loss of technique led to a lost football when Watkins simultaneously absorbed hits from two different Maryland defenders.

The 6-foot-1, 205-pound junior is NFLDraftScout.com's top-rated receiver. Quick, strong and possessing the explosive speed to burn corners who challenge him in bump and run coverage, Watkins projects as an ideal flanker in much the same mold as Pierre Garcon (6-0, 212). Of course, Watkins' dominance in college football has come against elite competition, whereas Garcon had to work his way into a starring role after playing collegiately at Mount Union.

Watkins explodes off the line of scrimmage and out of his breaks, easily separating from defenders. Most impressive, however, is the fluidity with which he catches the ball and gets upfield. There, his vision and maneuverability make him a threat to score from anywhere.

 

[EBF]

I'm kind of trying to shy away from the constant comparison game because every player is different and you're almost never going to find an exact parallel.

Putting that aside, if I had to say which NFL RB Seastrunk is most similar to, I would vote DeAngelo Williams. Both are squatty and strong, but their playing style is more about finesse and elusiveness than busting through a lot of tackles with power. You could also say he's a much sturdier, better version of Felix Jones.

Size will not be an issue for him. He has always been a stocky little dude.

 

[EBF]

thanx for the comps...

if the measurables cited on the freak list were accurate, it sounds like seastrunk could put some of the best numbers for the position in combine history (but maybe they aren't?)...

the reason i mentioned evans might test slower than jeffery (for similar sized, big WRs), is i thought jeffery ran a better than expected 4.4, but come to think of it, that may have been pro day (i forget if he didn't run at combine, or did but ran a slower 4.5?), which sometimes can be faster timed than under more controlled circumstances... is evans exxpected to run a 4.5 (which sounds plenty fast for his size)... i like floyd, though i thought he would have done more by now, but am still hopeful for his future... so i like that comp... floyd is a big WR, but not as big as evans (listed 6'2" 220), but ran a 4.4, and has pretty agile, fluid movement skills, so again, that is an impressive comp to me...

i thought EBF alluded to some concerns (reseervations?) about evans based on less than elite COD ability (how many WRs at his size do - maybe only calvin johnson?)... but my recollection is they were minor, and he definitely viewed him as first round worthy and one of top prospects in class, with watkins and lee?

big WRs like BMW (especially when weight wasn't under control) do look lumbering, and are glorified TEs...

i thought jeffery didn't look slow this year and has been somewhat of a breakout star, but i admittedly haven't seen a lot, mostly highlights and following the stats...

i suppose if front offices and dynasty players knew in advance that evans would do as well as jeffery by his second year, he would be a pretty valuable commodity...

the most talented big WRs almost make moot the importance of getting a lot of separation, because of their physical mismatch against smaller DBs, if they have a QB that can exploit this and take advantage by putting the ball in the right place, and the athleticism and body control to high point the ball, or use their bigger body to shield the ball, getting position like a power forward...

* 2014 mock from scott wright's draft countdown...

http://www.draftcountdown.com/sub/Mock-Draft-A.php

** is the consensus watkins, lee and evans are top 3 WRs, how would the thread order them?

I wasn't a Jeffery fan as a draft prospect and still have some doubts about his viability as a #1 target, but one thing I overlooked with him was how well he tested at his pro day when he was coming out. It wasn't just the 40. He also showed explosiveness in the broad jump and vertical leap.

A lot of people compare Mike Evans to Vincent Jackson. I do see some similarities, but let's not forget that VJax is a complete monster of an athlete. Ran 4.46, jumped 39" in the vert, and 10'9" in the broad jump. That's pretty ideal for a big receiver. Other NFL standouts like Dez Bryant, Julio Jones, and Calvin Johnson also thrived in those drills. I don't think it is enough in the NFL to just be big. You also have to be able to move. That's my primary ??? with Evans. Is he a real athlete or just a big guy? We'll know more in four months when he's put through the gauntlet, but for now I think he looks a little bit lackluster in that department when I watch him for A&M.

I don't hate his game, but if I were forced to do a rookie draft tomorrow he would not be a top 6 pick. I would take Seastrunk, Watkins, Lee, Ebron, Gordon, and Robinson ahead of him. You can make a case that Moncrief's skill set will translate better to the NFL, although he needs to sort out his inconsistent hands.

If Evans is viewed as mid-late 1st round NFL draft pick in mocks, I'd say I value him more like a high 2nd rounder. To me, he's somewhere between Mike Williams (USC) and Plaxico Burress. If he tests well and looks good in the drills at the combine, I will move him up. For now my hunch is that he owes a lot of his success to simply being bigger than his competition. That works in college, but not so much in the NFL. So I'd say I'm slightly down on him relative to the average person.

 

[EBF]

Mike Dyer didn't get a single carry for Louisville today. Very odd. Last week he reportedly gave up his spot in the rotation because Dominique Brown was running well, but I haven't heard an explanation for why he didn't carry the ball today. I thought he would slot right into the starting lineup at Louisville this year, but it's starting to look like a Bryce Brown at Kansas State situation. Very bad for his draft stock.

 

[EBF]

Another good day for FSU RB Devonta Freeman. He had 122 total yards on just 13 touches and showed some nice quickness.

Their WR Rashad Greene is also looking like a decent prospect. Not the biggest guy, but he can play. Three straight 100+ yard games. Four straight weeks with at least one 40+ yard catch.

 

[EBF]

Another player trending upward after an injury-plagued 2012 season is Buffalo RB Branden Oliver. He started the season slowly then sat out a game against Stony Brook with minor injuries. In five games since returning he has 769 rushing yards on 141 carries (5.45 YPC). Right now I'd say he's probably a day 3 draft pick, but he will have a chance to move up the charts in the postseason.

 

[Faust]

What we learned from Week 9 in college football

 

[EBF]

Give me Landry over Beckham all day.

If I had to break that one down, I would say Beckham is clearly the more explosive athlete whereas Landry has an edge in terms of innate receiving ability.

I probably like Beckham more as an NFL prospect because I think Landry's lack of outstanding tools might limit his upside more in the NFL. Beckham will drop some passes, but I'm pretty confident that he'll be able to get open and make plays after the catch even on Sundays.

 

[Penguin]

Yesterday I went back and watched Sankey's game vs. Cal from Saturday night. He had 5 really nice runs that accounted for 178 of his 241 yards but gained just 63 yards on his other 22 carries against a pretty horrible Cal defense.

I don't think he has the speed or talent to make those occasional big runs at the next level.

 

[Faust]

2014 NFL Draft Week 9 Stock Report: Braxton Miller steps up

 

[Faust]

Risers-Sliders: Week 9

 

[Faust]

NFL Draft Notes -- Oregon State's Sean Mannion fails to deliver

 

[Faust]

Rotoworld:

NFL.com's Mike Huguenin writes that it is "becoming increasingly evident that [Virginia Tech senior QB Logan] Thomas' impressive 2011 season was the aberration."
Huguenin inked an article last week that praised Thomas for his strong play in October, but the senior's disastrous outing in VT's upset loss to Duke on Saturday (0 TD, 4 INT) prompted the scribe to essentially write a retraction. Thomas, who is often compared to Cam Newton physically, has thrown more interceptions than touchdowns in his fifth year on campus. "In short, the intangibles don't seem to be there," wrote Huguenin.

Source: NFL.com

 

[Faust]

Rotoworld:

Fresno State senior QB Derek Carr completed 35 of 57 attempts for 298 yards and two touchdowns in the school's 35-28 overtime win against San Diego State.
Carr's on-field style is very reminiscent of Jay Cutler, showing reckless footwork in a clean pocket but a ridiculously talented arm. He can hit receivers at any level of the field with a flick of the wrist, but Carr isn't always balanced in the pocket. He also held the ball a bit too long in the face of pressure in this game.

 

[EBF]

Rotoworld:

Fresno State senior QB Derek Carr completed 35 of 57 attempts for 298 yards and two touchdowns in the school's 35-28 overtime win against San Diego State.
Carr's on-field style is very reminiscent of Jay Cutler, showing reckless footwork in a clean pocket but a ridiculously talented arm. He can hit receivers at any level of the field with a flick of the wrist, but Carr isn't always balanced in the pocket. He also held the ball a bit too long in the face of pressure in this game.

I caught a little bit of that game. Maybe he was holding the ball too long because he doesn't have an internal clock, or maybe it's because he's just not very skittish in the pocket. I don't know for sure, but he seemed very calm under pressure. Almost like he didn't even notice it. That could actually be a good thing.

 

[Xue]

Here are my current WR rankings.

1. Mike Evans**
2. Sammy Watkins*
3. Odell Beckham, Jr.*
4. DeVante Parker*
5. Allen Robinson*
6. Cody Hoffman
7. Davante Adams**
8. Jordan Matthews
9. Brandin Cooks*
10. Paul Richardson*
11. Rashad Greene*
12. Jarvis Landry*
13. Marqise Lee*
14. Jared Abbrederis
15. Kasen Williams*
16. L’Damian Washington
17. Donte Moncrief*
18. Jeremy Gallon
19. Ryan Grant
20. Robert Herron

 

[BeTheMatch]

Count me in the camp not sold on Mike Evans' NFL prospects. Just not sold on this guy at the next level. I wouldn't touch him where he's likely to go in rookie drafts.

 

[jurb26]

Yeah, I think Evans is pretty overrated. He simply overpowers smaller college DBs and is fast enough at that level to run by a lot of them as well. He won't in the NFL. I don't like his lateral agility or route running and think he's a straight line guy who will struggle vs NFL DBs who can match him physically. The Texas AM Oline is going to make him and Manziel a lot of money. They are driving a lot of the success.

 

[ConnSKINS26]

lol

Lee at 13 is the definition of trying too hard to be contrarian.

Even if he's nothing even approaching what his believers think he is, he should still be ranked higher than 13.

 

[jurb26]

lol

Lee at 13 is the definition of trying too hard to be contrarian.

Even if he's nothing even approaching what his believers think he is, he should still be ranked higher than 13.

There are a lot of... Shall I say... Strange rankings in there. To each his own though. Personally, I can't see any argument supporting him being outside the top 5.

 

[Faust]

Excerpt from Peter King's MMQB:

Factoid of the Week That May Interest Only MeOregon quarterback Marcus Mariota is playing well beyond his years. He is 19. He turns 20 Wednesday. The redshirt sophomore hasn’t said whether he is coming out of school and entering the 2014 draft; he’d be a candidate to be the first overall pick if he chooses. But it is worth noting that on the first day of the draft next May, Mariota will be 20 years, 6 months and 9 days old. Imagine Mariota coming out, getting picked by Jacksonville, and beating Tennessee next September. He won’t be able to celebrate with a cold beer—at least not legally.

Mariota’s almost a full year younger than any other quarterback who may get picked in the first round next year. The age on draft day next May of some of the bright QB prospects:

• Tajh Boyd, Clemson: 23 years, 7 months, 14 days.
• Teddy Bridgewater, Louisville: 21 years, 5 months, 29 days.
• Derek Carr, Fresno State: 23 years, 1 month, 11 days.
• Johnny Manziel, Texas A&M: 21 years, 5 months, 3 days.
• A.J. McCarron, Alabama: 23 years, 7 months, 26 days.
• Zach Mettenberger, LSU: 22 years, 9 months, 23 days.
• Braxton Miller, Ohio State: 21 years, 5 months, 9 days.
• Aaron Murray, Georgia: 23 years, 5 months, 29 days.

 

[Faust]

2014 NFL Draft Big Board

 

[EBF]

Yeah, I think Evans is pretty overrated. He simply overpowers smaller college DBs and is fast enough at that level to run by a lot of them as well. He won't in the NFL. I don't like his lateral agility or route running and think he's a straight line guy who will struggle vs NFL DBs who can match him physically. The Texas AM Oline is going to make him and Manziel a lot of money. They are driving a lot of the success.

Wow, it isn't often that jurb and I agree completely.

Not a fan of Evans.

 

[Faust]

Rotoworld:

Former Oregon junior TE Colt Lyerla is hoping to attend a drug treatment program.
The Lane County drug court will decide on Wednesday whether or not they will allow him to do so. If Lyerla is accepted into a program and completes it, drug charges against him would be dropped. Lyerla's attorneys have requested that the treatment take place in Florida so the tight end can simultaneously begin training for February's NFL Scouting Combine.

Source: The Oregonian

 

[jurb26]

Yeah, I think Evans is pretty overrated. He simply overpowers smaller college DBs and is fast enough at that level to run by a lot of them as well. He won't in the NFL. I don't like his lateral agility or route running and think he's a straight line guy who will struggle vs NFL DBs who can match him physically. The Texas AM Oline is going to make him and Manziel a lot of money. They are driving a lot of the success.

Wow, it isn't often that jurb and I agree completely.

Not a fan of Evans.

Indeed!Though I must say Evans is a guy I'll be looking at pretty closely at the combine. Maybe he's more athletic than I think. I'm just not seeing it on the field though.

 

[Faust]

Rotoworld:

NFL.com's Bucky Brooks wrote that Clemson senior QB Tajh Boyd "is not a franchise quarterback."
"He hasn't shown enough consistency in his play to be considered a franchise quarterback in NFL circles," writes Brooks. An AFC scout with whom Brooks spoke agreed: "He has some nice tools, but I don't know if he is a frontline player." Brooks believes that it's important for Boyd to play big in a showcase game after the quarterback's implosion against Florida State. Clemson has marquee contests against Georgia Tech and South Carolina coming up.

Source: NFL.com

NFL.com's Bucky Brooks writes that UCLA redshirt sophomore QB Brett Hundley "is not quite ready for the NFL" and Brooks would "advise him to spend another season in Westwood."
Sound like a familiar argument? That's because Scouts Inc.'s Todd McShay made it earlier in the day Tuesday. "While I'm impressed with his talent, football IQ and work ethic," writes Brooks, "I believe he could become a legitimate top 10 prospect in a subsequent draft with improved accuracy, judgment and poise. Not that he is severely lacking in either category, but to be considered a franchise-caliber quarterback he must display better consistency in those areas." Brooks mine as well have been playing "echo" with McShay, who said: "[Hundley] can become more consistent."

Source: NFL.com

Clemson head coach Dabo Swinney admitted he would be surprised if junior WR Sammy Watkins returned for his senior season.
"Sammy Watkins is a top-10 pick," Swinney stated. "... But I didn't think Spiller was coming back." We would be shocked if Watkins returns, especially with Tajh Boyd headed to the NFL. Watkins has excellent long speed, explosive moves after the catch, and is willing to go up and get the football. He will likely be the first receiver selected in May.

Source: Greg Wallace on Twitter

 

[EBF]

Yeah, I think Evans is pretty overrated. He simply overpowers smaller college DBs and is fast enough at that level to run by a lot of them as well. He won't in the NFL. I don't like his lateral agility or route running and think he's a straight line guy who will struggle vs NFL DBs who can match him physically. The Texas AM Oline is going to make him and Manziel a lot of money. They are driving a lot of the success.

Wow, it isn't often that jurb and I agree completely.

Not a fan of Evans.

Indeed!Though I must say Evans is a guy I'll be looking at pretty closely at the combine. Maybe he's more athletic than I think. I'm just not seeing it on the field though.

Yea, I'm with you there too.

Drafting tomorrow I would clearly prefer Watkins, Lee, and Robinson. Maybe a couple others.

Doubt that Evans finds his way onto any of my FF teams unless he looks great at the combine.

 

[Ernol]

Yesterday I went back and watched Sankey's game vs. Cal from Saturday night. He had 5 really nice runs that accounted for 178 of his 241 yards but gained just 63 yards on his other 22 carries against a pretty horrible Cal defense.

I don't think he has the speed or talent to make those occasional big runs at the next level.

I get the points you are making and you may be right, but I got a good laugh when you basically said "Disregard 178 of his rushing yards and what do you have?"

 

[jeter23]

I threw out a possible top 5 rookie picks if drafting today on Twitter and the biggest criticism I heard from many people was having Evans too low.

I had it...

1. Watkins

2. Lee

3. Gordon

4. Seastrunk

5. Evans

Several responded that Evans should be 3 at the lowest, taken above Lee, above both RBs, etc.

 

[BeTheMatch]

I threw out a possible top 5 rookie picks if drafting today on Twitter and the biggest criticism I heard from many people was having Evans too low.

I had it...

1. Watkins

2. Lee

3. Gordon

4. Seastrunk

5. Evans

Several responded that Evans should be 3 at the lowest, taken above Lee, above both RBs, etc.

Because most people just look the big stats and buy into all the media hype thanks to Johnny Football and they don't really look at anything else.

 

[Penguin]

Yesterday I went back and watched Sankey's game vs. Cal from Saturday night. He had 5 really nice runs that accounted for 178 of his 241 yards but gained just 63 yards on his other 22 carries against a pretty horrible Cal defense.

I don't think he has the speed or talent to make those occasional big runs at the next level.

I get the points you are making and you may be right, but I got a good laugh when you basically said "Disregard 178 of his rushing yards and what do you have?"

I was actually thinking the same thing when I was writing that. But, at least in my opinion, it's different than looking at Barry Sanders, Chris Johnson, Adrian Peterson carry by carry scenarios. Those guys all have big time speed and ability to be able to do it at the NFL level, whereas I don't think Sankey does. But I agree it does sound like the old exclusion argument.

 

[Xue]

lol

Lee at 13 is the definition of trying too hard to be contrarian.

Even if he's nothing even approaching what his believers think he is, he should still be ranked higher than 13.

It's not contrarian. Everything I've seen of Lee isn't as impressive as what you've been told or read. Fact of the matter is every WR has their set of negatives. I'll simply take the positives of each WR ahead of Lee.

Lee simply isn't a top tier player for me. His combination of stature (6', 195??) and lack of ball skills, strength, and route running won't translate as easily in the NFL. If he was 6'2", 215+, I'd let some of his deficiencies slide and put him higher.

Here are my tiered rankings:

1. Mike Evans**
2. Sammy Watkins*
3. Odell Beckham, Jr.*

1. DeVante Parker*
2. Allen Robinson*
3. Cody Hoffman
4. Davante Adams**
5. Jordan Matthews

1. Brandin Cooks*
2. Paul Richardson*
3. Rashad Greene*
4. Jarvis Landry*
5. Marqise Lee*

1. Jared Abbrederis
2. Kasen Williams*
3. L’Damian Washington
4. Donte Moncrief*
5. Jeremy Gallon
6. Ryan Grant
7. Robert Herron

To me, Lee is pretty close to Richardson and Greene, but I'd prefer both over Lee. Or, in other words, Lee is no more talented than Richardson and Greene. I'm really surprised Greene isn't getting more love playing with the eventual Heisman winner.

No offense, but only Fantasy circles are still high on Lee. Draftniks have already seen the light.

 

[EBF]

To me, Lee is pretty close to Richardson and Greene, but I'd prefer both over Lee. Or, in other words, Lee is no more talented than Richardson and Greene. I'm really surprised Greene isn't getting more love playing with the eventual Heisman winner.

No offense, but only Fantasy circles are still high on Lee. Draftniks have already seen the light.

 

[Faust]

NFL Draft Prospects: Top-32

 

[karmarooster]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAWJ2FRTRFg

 

[ConnSKINS26]

lol

Lee at 13 is the definition of trying too hard to be contrarian.

Even if he's nothing even approaching what his believers think he is, he should still be ranked higher than 13.

It's not contrarian. Everything I've seen of Lee isn't as impressive as what you've been told or read. Fact of the matter is every WR has their set of negatives. I'll simply take the positives of each WR ahead of Lee.

Lee simply isn't a top tier player for me. His combination of stature (6', 195??) and lack of ball skills, strength, and route running won't translate as easily in the NFL. If he was 6'2", 215+, I'd let some of his deficiencies slide and put him higher.

Here are my tiered rankings:

• Mike Evans**
• Sammy Watkins*
• Odell Beckham, Jr.*

• DeVante Parker*
• Allen Robinson*
• Cody Hoffman
• Davante Adams**
• Jordan Matthews

• Brandin Cooks*
• Paul Richardson*
• Rashad Greene*
• Jarvis Landry*
• Marqise Lee*

• Jared Abbrederis
• Kasen Williams*
• LDamian Washington
• Donte Moncrief*
• Jeremy Gallon
• Ryan Grant
• Robert Herron

To me, Lee is pretty close to Richardson and Greene, but I'd prefer both over Lee. Or, in other words, Lee is no more talented than Richardson and Greene. I'm really surprised Greene isn't getting more love playing with the eventual Heisman winner.

No offense, but only Fantasy circles are still high on Lee. Draftniks have already seen the light.

I'm gonna start here, to get it out of the way:

Everything I've seen of Lee isn't as impressive as what you've been told or read

Could you have made a more pompous statement?

You say that draftniks are over Lee, but that doesn't seem to be the case at other draft sites where I've seen you post, and where your anti-Lee posting encounters just as much resistance as here.

Then you go on to say this at one of those other places, which is pretty much the perfect example of your attitude, despite your reluctance to admit to being contrarian:

I also don't care what NFL scouts think. Half of them don't know what they're looking at anyway.

You actually said that. This, in combination with the other above comment that I quoted, paints a pretty clear picture of how you see yourself in relation to others, even professionals, when looking at prospects. It's clear there's no debating with you.

Say whatever you want about the positives of each WR on that list, but having Lee 13th is absolutely a contrarian viewpoint. If you're going to do it, at least own it.

 

[Xue]

Instead of showing us why Lee is as talented as they say he is, another person just wants to personally attack me. Get a life guys. Russell Clay (wiscstlmania) can vouch that I put as much time and work into college prospects as anyone from FBGs forum or anyone he knows on twitter. We can focus on the players or we can focus on me being a "contrarian". Your choice.

Why don't you just give people the link: http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=534427&start=30

 

[karmarooster]

I quote NO ONE to back up any of my arguments or evaluations. Do you know what I use? Facts. Video and images. I call it how I see it. That's not "elitist". That's confidence.

Video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAWJ2FRTRFg

Facts: 118/1721/14

Ready, set, go. What do you see?

 

[Penguin]

I quote NO ONE to back up any of my arguments or evaluations. Do you know what I use? Facts. Video and images. I call it how I see it. That's not "elitist". That's confidence.

Video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAWJ2FRTRFg

Facts: 118/1721/14

Ready, set, go. What do you see?

That sideline grab at around 3:54 is a thing of beauty

 

[Xue]

I quote NO ONE to back up any of my arguments or evaluations. Do you know what I use? Facts. Video and images. I call it how I see it. That's not "elitist". That's confidence.

Video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAWJ2FRTRFg

Facts: 118/1721/14

Ready, set, go. What do you see?

This video doesn't have all 118 receptions. So I'm not sure how these two "facts" are relevant to each other.

And you totally took my words out of context. Why don't you quote the whole series of exchanges between the other posters I'm replying to?

Oh wait, it's because it wouldn't back up your point, which of course you don't have one.

Let me know when you want to have a fair and unbiased conversation.

I actually don't dislike Lee as much as you guys seem to feel. You guys simply like him more than I do. Whether it's because you know more about him than more than half the WRs I have listed before him? I don't know, ask yourselves that.

 

[ConnSKINS26]

Instead of showing us why Lee is as talented as they say he is, another person just wants to personally attack me. Get a life guys. Russell Clay (wiscstlmania) can vouch that I put as much time and work into college prospects as anyone from FBGs forum or anyone he knows on twitter. We can focus on the players or we can focus on me being a "contrarian". Your choice.

Why don't you just give people the link: http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=534427&start=30

I'm not personally attacking you, I like to read your thoughts because you do put a lot of time and effort in. I respect that. It adds to this board, and the prospect discussion here. But if you're going to post pompous remarks, I'm going to call them pompous.

If you're going to say that draftniks are over Lee, and it's just dynasty FF owners still in his corner, I'm going to call that out for the false statement that it is, and the link you just provided is the evidence. Those are draftniks, on a draftnik message board, disagreeing with you.

If you're going to say you aren't being a contrarian, instead of just owning it, I'm going to post things relevant to the point--you hold your own talent evaluation skills above at least half of all NFL scouts. That's relevant, when you hold a divisive opinion (Lee) and resist the fact that you're in a small minority--in draftnik circles and FF circles.

Maybe I've been using the wrong term--contrarian implies you only hold the position that you do on Lee precisely because most others don't. That's not really what I mean, and I apologize. Because that is in a way offensive. What I really mean is that you are knowingly in the small minority on this, and yet put forth a front like everyone's coming around to your point of view and only here, at FBG's, are there hold-outs. Which just isn't true.

 

[EBF]

It is just like your Jairus Wright > Kendall Wright stance from the offseason. You take an opinion that might be interesting (that Marqise Lee is overrated) and extend it to a stupid extreme (that Marqise Lee is the 13th best WR in the draft). If you want to talk about actual analysis, I think the big mistake you're making is latching onto 1-2 qualities and allowing them to completely color your opinion of a prospect while ignoring all of the other variables.

In this case I think you've put way too much emphasis on the "catching technique" stuff at the expense of all other considerations. Lee is one of the best athletes at WR in this draft. He might be listed at a modest height/weight, but I've seen him play a lot too and I never got the impression that he was undersized. He's quite muscular for his height and an exceptional overall athlete in terms of quickness/fluidity. Very very agile.

Is he going to be the ultimate outside WR winning jump balls and contested catches all over the field? Maybe not, but he has more potential there than you've given him credit for and in many ways his game is ideal for the direction the NFL is moving. We've seen several receivers have success working out of the slot where they can get the ball in space and make plays with their athletic ability (Cobb and Harvin being the two best at this). Kendall Wright, another player that you dogged relentlessly, also fits the mold. Marqise Lee can do a lot of those same things and actually offers more than those guys as an X receiver.

I watch a lot of Pac-12 ball and tend to have a pretty good handle on the local talent. I was probably one of the first if not THE first people on here to bang the drum for guys like Keenan Allen, Jahvid Best, Andrew Luck, and Reggie Bush in the past. I have seen a lot of players come through and I think I usually have a pretty good sense of their skill level. IMO you're selling Lee short. When healthy, he's an absolute terror and one of the best athletes in the conference hands down. He has a rare talent level and while I probably wouldn't use a top 12-14 pick on him if I were running an NFL franchise, anything in the 15-32 range is reasonable value IMO. That's about where most mocks have him, but of course you know better than they do.

I think the reason people have made the discussion personal is because in some respects there's no getting around it. Since you have a pretty clear and persistent tendency to drag good prospects through the mud while grossly overhyping your pet players, it has become the boy who cried wolf and everyone views your analysis through that lens.

 

[karmarooster]

I quote NO ONE to back up any of my arguments or evaluations. Do you know what I use? Facts. Video and images. I call it how I see it. That's not "elitist". That's confidence.

Video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAWJ2FRTRFg

Facts: 118/1721/14

Ready, set, go. What do you see?

This video doesn't have all 118 receptions. So I'm not sure how these two "facts" are relevant to each other.

And you totally took my words out of context. Why don't you quote the whole series of exchanges between the other posters I'm replying to?

Oh wait, it's because it wouldn't back up your point, which of course you don't have one.

Let me know when you want to have a fair and unbiased conversation.

I actually don't dislike Lee as much as you guys seem to feel. You guys simply like him more than I do. Whether it's because you know more about him than more than half the WRs I have listed before him? I don't know, ask yourselves that.

Now you're just being mary mary quite contrary.

You said you use video and facts to evaluate players. I gave you a video. The facts, ok, not so illustrative ... other than the fact it shows he can dominate at the college level. Is there some video or image that suggests to you Lee is not a top 12 WR in this class? In the video I gave you, he looks good. Very good. If you had some kind of argument relating to his performance this year, or him being hampered by the injury, I'd be happy to here WHY you don't think he's good.

I think you're point would be more well-taken if it was like "Guys I have Lee outside my top-5 WRs, here's why..." instead of "he's small, has bad hands, can't catch, he's slow, he's terrible. This is what you said:

Everything I've seen of Lee isn't as impressive as what you've been told or read. Fact of the matter is every WR has their set of negatives. I'll simply take the positives of each WR ahead of Lee.

Lee simply isn't a top tier player for me. His combination of stature (6', 195??) and lack of ball skills, strength, and route running won't translate as easily in the NFL. If he was 6'2", 215+, I'd let some of his deficiencies slide and put him higher.

This sounds like you're saying "He's REALLY bad (ok... but just for the sake of argument, let's continue...) but if he were just 2 inches and 20 pounds heavier, he might be good." Well, that already sounds bogus... if he's got the skills, he's big enough. If he doesn't, then it's not his size that's going to hold him back. He's about the same size as Justin Blackmon. Anyways, size might be a useful argument to say he's not in the Dez-level, but not much more.

I know very little about those other WRs. What I do know is that Lee looks very good. I don't fancy myself as some kind of savant-scout like you, which is why it's especially surprising. Even to someone with little evaluation skills, it's obvious Lee is an elite prospect. So, I'd like you to elaborate. Remember, use facts, videos, and images. And quote NO ONE, especially not Draftniks.

 

[Xue]

I'm not personally attacking you, I like to read your thoughts because you do put a lot of time and effort in. I respect that. It adds to this board, and the prospect discussion here.

But if you're going to post pompous remarks, I'm going to call them pompous.

You took the remarks out of context. In my proceeding replies within that thread I clarified the root of that statement you quoted.

If you're going to say that draftniks are over Lee, and it's just dynasty FF owners still in his corner, I'm going to call that our for the false statement that it is, and the link you just provided is the evidence. Those are draftniks, on a draftnik message board, disagreeing with you.

Those aren't the only draftniks. Most of the ones I value are on twitter. And I won't bother quoting them since no one probably finds their opinions valid. Twitter guys seem to be more open-minded. Go figure. Only ONE draftnik on that board disagrees with me strongly enough to start quoting scouts.

If you're going to say you aren't being a contrarian, instead of just owning it, I'm going to post things relevant to the point--you hold your own talent evaluation skills above at least half of all NFL scouts.

I have never stated as such.

That's relevant, when you hold a divisive opinion (Lee) and resist the fact that you're in a small minority--in draftnik circles and FF circles.

I'd say the true draftnik circles are split on Lee. Some still like him very much, but there's a good amount that are low on Lee that I've come across. But I'm not going to start quoting them to validate my view.

Maybe I've been using the wrong term--contrarian implies you only hold the position that you do on Lee precisely because most others don't. That's not really what I mean, and I apologize. Because that is in a way offensive. What I really mean is that you are knowingly in the small minority on this, and yet put forth a front like everyone's coming around to your point of view and only here, at FBG's, are there hold-outs. Which just isn't true.

There are some draftniks I value who have Lee in their top 5, but have a few others like Cooks, Greene, Richardson, or Robinson ahead of him. I don't feel strongly against Lee being top 5. I do feel strongly against him being #1.

Only those who feel strongly that Lee is the #1 WR seems to be put off by my rankings. The poster on that other board decides to focus on my disparaging ranking of Lee, yet the rest of my rankings are fairly similar to his. There are other WRs in this class to debate on people. And we can do it in a healthy manner.

 

[Xue]

I quote NO ONE to back up any of my arguments or evaluations. Do you know what I use? Facts. Video and images. I call it how I see it. That's not "elitist". That's confidence.

Video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAWJ2FRTRFg

Facts: 118/1721/14

Ready, set, go. What do you see?

This video doesn't have all 118 receptions. So I'm not sure how these two "facts" are relevant to each other.

And you totally took my words out of context. Why don't you quote the whole series of exchanges between the other posters I'm replying to?

Oh wait, it's because it wouldn't back up your point, which of course you don't have one.

Let me know when you want to have a fair and unbiased conversation.

I actually don't dislike Lee as much as you guys seem to feel. You guys simply like him more than I do. Whether it's because you know more about him than more than half the WRs I have listed before him? I don't know, ask yourselves that.

Now you're just being mary mary quite contrary.

You said you use video and facts to evaluate players. I gave you a video. The facts, ok, not so illustrative ... other than the fact it shows he can dominate at the college level. Is there some video or image that suggests to you Lee is not a top 12 WR in this class? In the video I gave you, he looks good. Very good. If you had some kind of argument relating to his performance this year, or him being hampered by the injury, I'd be happy to here WHY you don't think he's good.

I think you're point would be more well-taken if it was like "Guys I have Lee outside my top-5 WRs, here's why..." instead of "he's small, has bad hands, can't catch, he's slow, he's terrible. This is what you said:

Everything I've seen of Lee isn't as impressive as what you've been told or read. Fact of the matter is every WR has their set of negatives. I'll simply take the positives of each WR ahead of Lee.

Lee simply isn't a top tier player for me. His combination of stature (6', 195??) and lack of ball skills, strength, and route running won't translate as easily in the NFL. If he was 6'2", 215+, I'd let some of his deficiencies slide and put him higher.

This sounds like you're saying "He's REALLY bad (ok... but just for the sake of argument, let's continue...) but if he were just 2 inches and 20 pounds heavier, he might be good." Well, that already sounds bogus... if he's got the skills, he's big enough. If he doesn't, then it's not his size that's going to hold him back. He's about the same size as Justin Blackmon. Anyways, size might be a useful argument to say he's not in the Dez-level, but not much more.

I know very little about those other WRs. What I do know is that Lee looks very good. I don't fancy myself as some kind of savant-scout like you, which is why it's especially surprising. Even to someone with little evaluation skills, it's obvious Lee is an elite prospect. So, I'd like you to elaborate. Remember, use facts, videos, and images. And quote NO ONE, especially not Draftniks.

You're late to the party on the Lee discussion:

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=676170&page=18#entry16074707

No need to rehash it.