Dynasty Rankings (9 Viewers)

[SSOG]

Fair enough in regard to Marshall. Like I said, I own him now, so there is certainly bias in my mind (how can there not be?). I think the comparison to Chris Henry isn't fair, though, as Chris Henry was never the #1 receiver for his team. I'm not going to defend Marshall's actions in practice, but at what point does it begin to be Denver's fault just as much as Marshall's?

Henry might have become Cincy's #1 WR if not for his off-field incidents. He's certainly talented enough to be a #1 WR, although it'd be hard to beat out Ochocinco. I also don't see how the Marshall situation is Denver's fault. Cutler? Yeah, definitely. Marshall? He had a gripe with the training staff, demanded an immediate trade, refused to learn the playbook, and "practiced" like that when his every whim wasn't immediately granted. What could/should Denver have done differently?Also, I'm not one of those who faults a guy for being biased about players he owns. I'd hold it against a guy who WASN'T biased about the players he owns... because why own them if you don't like them? I'll say any time that there's a correlation between who is on my roster and how much I like them... but everyone is getting the causal relationship backwards. I don't like them because they're on my roster, they're on my roster because I like them.

 

[renesauz]

I'm not a Caddy believer myself - in fact, I just cut him in the one league I had him in - but I also don't think it's fair to say his "upside" is 40% of the TB rushing attack. Almost all of these end-of-the-bench guys are ones that have talent but not opportunity - and their upside comes from an improvement in that opportunity.

TO this end, I also think you're overstating the competition.

First, in terms of raw "talent" (and we're ignoring hunger, what injuries have done, etc) - Ward was drafted in the 7th round, Graham was undrafted, and Caddy was a top 5 overall pick.

Second, it's not like either Graham or Ward have proven that they can be the bellcow.

Ward had a good (almost great, if you consider value) year last year, but it's the only year he's done anything and he did it on a team that was dominating opposing defenses in the running game. Sure, he averaged 5.6 YPC last year, but Jacobs averaged 5.0 and Bradshaw averaged 5.3. On top of this, he's never been a proven workhorse. He was healthy last year, but has already been hurt this preseason (walking around in a boot because of a foot injury). He missed 4 games in 2007 with ankle and groin injuries before breaking his fibula in week 13.

Graham had one "good" year - he had a few really big games and managed to score 10 total TDs, but he also had some rough games. He was an amazing value and helped many of us win championships, but it's not like he was a dominant force or anything. Then, one year removed from a 222 carry year, he was average, struggled with injury, and was replaced by Warrick Dunn. He too has struggled with injury this year as well, and was a GTF last week with an ankle injury.

It's one thing to say that you don't think he is the same back or isn't dynamic and won't do anything with the opportunity.... but I don't think it's fair to cap his OPPORTUNITY at 40% of the TB rushing attack.

Just saying.

Yes, Caddy was a lottery pick and Ward was a 7th rounder and Graham was undrafted. And Tom Brady was a 6th rounder, and Ryan Leaf was a first rounder, and Cedric Benson was a lottery pick, and Terrell Davis was a 6th rounder, and Michael Turner was a 5th rounder, and Rod Smith was undrafted, and Shannon Sharpe was a 7th rounder, and Vernon Davis was a lottery pick, and Antonio Gates was undrafted, and Terrell Owens was a 4th rounder, and Charles Rogers was a lottery pick, and Robert Gallery was a lottery pick, and both Mike Williamses were lottery picks, and Matt Lepsis was undrafted. This is a very fun game! Wanna keep playing?Where a player was drafted is a relevant measure of talent when they've been in the league for a year or two and haven't had a chance to show much on the field. It goes out the window entirely when we have 4+ years worth of tape on them, because we don't need to rely on second-hand information (like how fast they run in shorts or how well they do against ridiculously overmatched competition) to gauge their talent. We can, you know, actually watch and measure what they've actually done in actual NFL situations against actual NFL teams for their entire actual NFL career. At that point, bringing up draft position is one of the flimsiest arguments around.

In my mind, Caddy is the third best back in Tampa (based on the fact that I've seen him play and he doesn't look like a good RB, and I've seen Derrick Ward play and he does look like a good RB, and I've seen Earnest Graham play and he looked like an okay RB, and the Tampa front office saw Cadillac Williams play and he looked bad enough that they brought in someone else, and they saw Derrick Ward play and he looked good enough that he was the guy they brought in... not based on where these guys were drafted 4 and 5 years ago), so I have no problem capping his opportunity at 40%. It might go higher if one of the Tampa RBs gets injured... but as I said, if one of the Tampa RBs gets injured, it's most likely to be Caddy in the first place.

Ernest Graham- exact same situation as Caddy, but in my mind better talent and less injury concern. Career ypa > 4.0.

It's interesting to me that you can say something like this as if there's no debate.Caddy was a top 5 overall pick, Graham was undrafted. For his career, Graham has a 4.1 YPC while Caddy has 3.8 - but I would argue that the TB OL was better in 2007-2008 than it was in 2005-06. In either case, it's not like Graham has exactly dominated in anything he's done...

Plus, Graham hasn't exactly been injury free - he had ankle issues last year and was again injured this preseason. Meanwhile, Caddy looked better and healthier than we've seen him since those first 4 games of his career.

To me, none of these guys are particularly interesting - a great running game can sustain 3 fantasy RBs, but I don't think the TB running game is great, and I think each of these three will limit each other's value. But.... to say that Graham is clearly better?

Ummm... there *IS* no debate. IN MY MIND Earnest Graham is a better talent and lesser injury concern than Caddy. If you want to debate that Caddy secretly is a better talent IN MY MIND, then you can feel free to try, but I'm afraid that's one argument that you'd have no shot at winning.It's not like I stated that Graham was more talented and less injury prone as if it were objective truth which anyone with a brain could easily perceive. I clearly prefaced it with an "in my mind". It's my opinion and it was clearly marked as such. Should I just not offer opinions anymore? Or maybe I just shouldn't feel any conviction in the opinions that I offer?

SSOG...I really feel you aren't catching the jist of the argument. Clearly, you do not believe in Caddy...and that's more then justified. Just as clearly, you feel like it's a big deal that many of us feel he's worth drafting WITH A LATE PICK. Why should that bother you since it means a better chance at YOUR own favorite sleepers?750+ yard potential is NOT easily found on waiver wires. At least not in any of my leagues. Those few who are on the wire are hard to pick up with worst to first waivers when you're a winning team...which is why we want to identify and pick up these guys BEFORE others do.

Reading your posts closely, the differances of opinion seem centerd less around expectations/projections then around roster management. And roster management will differ league to league. In my 14 team 20 man dynasty, I have a slightly differant preferances for end of bench players then I do in my 12 team 24 man roster dynasty.

An 800 yard RB is a legitimate bye week sub in my 14 teamer....and with relatively small rosters, I can't afford to have too many developmental spots. In that league, Caddy makes a ton of sense.

 

[travdogg]

F&L, a little while back you had a post about the players you liked/disliked more than where they were ranked. I remember DeSean Jackson being on the dislike side and checking in around the 20-25 range. After all the reports out of camp and how he's looked this preseason, is he still a guy you are kind of down on, or is he slated for an upgrade in the next WR update?

 

[SSOG]

SSOG...I really feel you aren't catching the jist of the argument. Clearly, you do not believe in Caddy...and that's more then justified. Just as clearly, you feel like it's a big deal that many of us feel he's worth drafting WITH A LATE PICK. Why should that bother you since it means a better chance at YOUR own favorite sleepers?

750+ yard potential is NOT easily found on waiver wires. At least not in any of my leagues. Those few who are on the wire are hard to pick up with worst to first waivers when you're a winning team...which is why we want to identify and pick up these guys BEFORE others do.

Reading your posts closely, the differances of opinion seem centerd less around expectations/projections then around roster management. And roster management will differ league to league. In my 14 team 20 man dynasty, I have a slightly differant preferances for end of bench players then I do in my 12 team 24 man roster dynasty.

An 800 yard RB is a legitimate bye week sub in my 14 teamer....and with relatively small rosters, I can't afford to have too many developmental spots. In that league, Caddy makes a ton of sense.

I have no problem with people who rank Caddy higher than F&L did. I have no problem with people who take a flier on him late in the draft. Some people questioned why he was ranked where he was, and since I have a similar opinion on Caddy, I was offering my reasons why Caddy wasn't a top-50 dynasty RB.A question for you... do you think Caddy is a top-50 dynasty RB? Who does F&L have ranked ahead of Caddy that you would take Caddy over? Is there anyone F&L has ranked behind Caddy that you would prefer to Caddy?

 

[corpcow]

SSOG...I really feel you aren't catching the jist of the argument. Clearly, you do not believe in Caddy...and that's more then justified. Just as clearly, you feel like it's a big deal that many of us feel he's worth drafting WITH A LATE PICK. Why should that bother you since it means a better chance at YOUR own favorite sleepers?

750+ yard potential is NOT easily found on waiver wires. At least not in any of my leagues. Those few who are on the wire are hard to pick up with worst to first waivers when you're a winning team...which is why we want to identify and pick up these guys BEFORE others do.

Reading your posts closely, the differances of opinion seem centerd less around expectations/projections then around roster management. And roster management will differ league to league. In my 14 team 20 man dynasty, I have a slightly differant preferances for end of bench players then I do in my 12 team 24 man roster dynasty.

An 800 yard RB is a legitimate bye week sub in my 14 teamer....and with relatively small rosters, I can't afford to have too many developmental spots. In that league, Caddy makes a ton of sense.

I have no problem with people who rank Caddy higher than F&L did. I have no problem with people who take a flier on him late in the draft. Some people questioned why he was ranked where he was, and since I have a similar opinion on Caddy, I was offering my reasons why Caddy wasn't a top-50 dynasty RB.A question for you... do you think Caddy is a top-50 dynasty RB? Who does F&L have ranked ahead of Caddy that you would take Caddy over? Is there anyone F&L has ranked behind Caddy that you would prefer to Caddy?

SSOG - I have to say, I kind of find it interesting that you're SO against Caddy and yet you have Chris Perry, Ryan Torain, Antonio Pittman, or Lorenzo Booker rostered. None of these guys are taken in any of my *16* team dynasties, let alone a 10 team league. I don't think any of them have ANY upside. If you think they are worth a roster spot, how in the hell is Caddy not?

 

[SSOG]

SSOG - I have to say, I kind of find it interesting that you're SO against Caddy and yet you have Chris Perry, Ryan Torain, Antonio Pittman, or Lorenzo Booker rostered. None of these guys are taken in any of my *16* team dynasties, let alone a 10 team league. I don't think any of them have ANY upside. If you think they are worth a roster spot, how in the hell is Caddy not?

It's a combination of four factors. The first factor is the fact that waivers are closed. The second factor is deep benches (30 players per team with no PKs, 90 total RBs rostered). The third factor is that I have a long history of trading multiple players (or players and picks) for a single player... which leaves me with a very short roster and some real woofers at the end of my bench (many of whom were guys the other team was going to cut to make room for the trade who got sent to me to make the numbers even). The fourth factor is that our league doesn't do worst-to-first waivers: everyone retains their waiver priority from week to week, and I've been holding the #1 waiver priority since the middle of last season, meaning the only players I've had a shot at are those that cleared waivers. So... to address those players you specifically singled out: Ryan Torain had value until McDaniels drafted Moreno (now he's on the chopping block). Ditto that for Selvin Young. I was giving Anthony Pittman his two year courtesy hold to see if he could show me anything because I liked how he played in college (he hasn't, he's gone as soon as I need room on my roster). Ditto that for Lorenzo Booker. Chris Perry is on my roster because he was on my roster last season (when he was worth a flier) and because I haven't done any cuts yet. If Caddy was available as a free agent, I'd roster him over any of those guys (although I wouldn't burn my #1 waiver priority to grab him)... but there are 90 RBs rostered in my dynasty league (and that's not counting any rookies), so, logically speaking, an RB could be the 80th best dynasty RB and still be worthy of a roster spot. I do agree that all of those backs you named are junk just like Caddy (more so, even)... but I can't add anyone to replace them and, if nothing else, they're all worth more than an empty roster spot (if barely). Suffice it to say there'll be a big shakeup once waivers open.

 

[EBF]

What does he do well? I've been looking for a Jackson strength for two years now, and I haven't found it.Grant is a better runner. Wynn is a better runner, blocker, and receiver -- though past commitment issues and trouble staying healthy kept him behind Jackson ... until now?

Part of it's not being high on Jackson as much as it is being low on Wynn. I'm a UF fan. I watched every game of Wynn's career and was thoroughly underwhelmed. I haven't watched a whole lot of GB football, but what I've seen hasn't been enough to change my mind from my first impression.

Graham never jumped out at me as a particularly "talented" guy. When I saw him, I immediately thought of a guy like Droughns - a role player who had success because of the opportunity and enough talent to take advantage of it, but not someone "special" in their own right.

"more talented than Caddy" != "talented". I have no problem comparing Graham to Droughns. It's more a matter of how low I am on Caddy than it is of how high I am on Graham (although I do think Ward is better than you're giving him credit for).

RE: Caddy WilliamsFormer first round pick. Looked decent when healthy. Only 27 years old. Perfect guy to roster for pennies on the off chance that he pulls a Thomas Jones.

Would you rank him as a top-50 dynasty RB?

I don't know. There are some interesting names out there, but I think he's a guy who certainly has the potential to emerge as a productive player. Health has always been his biggest issue. If he can find a way to stay healthy then there's no reason he can't contribute for 3-4 years. He's not any less talented than 20-30 of the guys ranked ahead of him.

 

[gheemony]

At some point, guys like Marshall will become value plays again - like Chris Henry is doing, and Vick when he was in jail. and now. You hope to move them to a believer when their value pops back up.However, this is not the time for Marshall, because he's a cancer who runs afoul of the law. He'd fit perfectly in Cincy.

Run away from Marshall. Run fast. I'm so happy that there are owners who think he'll play and be productive this year. As previously mentioned, traded away Marshall this week and basically valued him at 0 (if not negative value).

 

[Fear & Loathing]

He's not any less talented than 20-30 of the guys ranked ahead of him.

He wasn't any less talented three years ago, but we really don't know how talented he is now after two major knee operations. How much did he leave on the operating table? I don't think it's wise to assume he has the same talent now, just as it wasn't wise to assume that Chris Perry was the same talent at this time last season as he was in his rookie season.

 

[Fear & Loathing]

but at what point does it begin to be Denver's fault just as much as Marshall's?

WTF?! This guys is a useless P.O.S., and you're actually attempting to turn him into a victim. Why didn't the Broncos stop him from all of these arrests and more? Why didn't the Broncos just look the other way when he acted like a petulant child in practice? Why didn't the Broncos hand him Larry Fitzgerald money when he can't stop slapping his women, causing domestic disturbances, and falling through television sets?

It's absolutely preposterously to place the blame for Brandon Marshall's current predicament anywhere but on Brandon Marshall himself.

So, in short, there is no point where it begins to be Denver's fault just as much as Marshall's. Nothing the Broncos can do will make Marshall happy short of trading him to another team, and the Broncos won't do that for obvious reasons. Nor should they feel obligated to.

 

[Craig_MiamiFL]

We got Cutler. Any shot we get Marshall too and reunite one of the best tandems in the league?!?

 

[Fear & Loathing]

F&L, a little while back you had a post about the players you liked/disliked more than where they were ranked. I remember DeSean Jackson being on the dislike side and checking in around the 20-25 range. After all the reports out of camp and how he's looked this preseason, is he still a guy you are kind of down on, or is he slated for an upgrade in the next WR update?

Upgrade

 

[Couch Potato]

but at what point does it begin to be Denver's fault just as much as Marshall's?

WTF?! This guys is a useless P.O.S., and you're actually attempting to turn him into a victim. Why didn't the Broncos stop him from all of these arrests and more? Why didn't the Broncos just look the other way when he acted like a petulant child in practice? Why didn't the Broncos hand him Larry Fitzgerald money when he can't stop slapping his women, causing domestic disturbances, and falling through television sets?

It's absolutely preposterously to place the blame for Brandon Marshall's current predicament anywhere but on Brandon Marshall himself.

So, in short, there is no point where it begins to be Denver's fault just as much as Marshall's. Nothing the Broncos can do will make Marshall happy short of trading him to another team, and the Broncos won't do that for obvious reasons. Nor should they feel obligated to.

I get to the point sometimes where the ignorance in the so-called Shark Pool, with people posting opinion without bothering to first obtain any real knowledge, just drives me nuts and I have to go away for awhile so I don't explode on people. F&L, I don't know how you do it and stay cool. The guys too clueless to understand the Marshall situation just take the cake. Ugh.

 

[Fear & Loathing]

How did I forget to post this today? Probably because I finally caved into peer pressure and moved him into the Top-12 recently. Why do I do that?

Vandermeer: Now we have seen Chris Brown make some pretty good power runs in the Kansas City game and the Minnesota game.

Kubiak: Our goal is to use him basically as a short-yardage runner, a red zone runner and Steve's (Slaton) backup, so we have to plan to go about our business and hopefully we can keep him healthy. But he's shown flashes this preseason that he's still got it in him. That's important to our team.

 

[Steed]

Since when did we get in the business of downgrading guys on the account of Chris Brown?

 

[Fear & Loathing]

Since when did we get in the business of downgrading guys on the account of Chris Brown?

It has little to do with Chris Brown and a lot to do with Kubiak making it clear on several occasions that he'd rather Slaton did not receive deep red zone carries. As I'm sure I don't have to tell you, those carries are more valuable than other carries, and Slaton needs to keep quite a few of them to maintain year-after-year value. One of my biggest concerns with Slaton is that he has some Willie Parker in him, where coaches will continue to take pieces of responsibility from him. Kubiak just took a huge chunk.

 

[EBF]

He's not any less talented than 20-30 of the guys ranked ahead of him.

He wasn't any less talented three years ago, but we really don't know how talented he is now after two major knee operations. How much did he leave on the operating table? I don't think it's wise to assume he has the same talent now, just as it wasn't wise to assume that Chris Perry was the same talent at this time last season as he was in his rookie season.

If we knew he was at 100% then he would be ranked a lot higher.Finding steals in dynasty leagues is about finding premium talents at discounted prices. I was able to get Thomas Jones in the 10th round of a startup draft several years ago because everyone else thought he was garbage. I had seen him make some nice runs with the Bucs and I knew he had the potential to unseat Anthony Thomas in Chicago. I'm always on the lookout for solid talents who have been prematurely forgotten. Cadillac Williams is an obvious candidate this season. Yes, we don't know that he's the same player he was a few years ago, but we also don't know that he isn't. He's only a few years removed from being a consensus top 10 dynasty pick and he's young enough to potentially find new life with another team just like Thomas Jones did. It's not all that difficult to envision a scenario in which he excels and emerges.What makes players like this appealing isn't a sky high probability of success, but rather a dirt cheap price tag. How often are you going to find a 27 year old former top 5 pick OROY sitting around in the 20th round of your dynasty draft? That's great value at a position where promising young players tend to be grossly overdrafted.Chris Perry isn't a good comparison because he never accomplished anything of note in the NFL and (IMO) was never all that good in the first place. I think Cadillac Williams at 100% is potentially a starting caliber NFL RB. He's not a lock for success by any means, but I like the risk/reward equation if you can get him at scrub prices. Many of the players ranked in the same range in the current FBG dynasty list are DOA worthless.

 

[Fear & Loathing]

Chris Perry isn't a good comparison because he never accomplished anything of note in the NFL and (IMO) was never all that good in the first place.

Hold it right there, EBF.

You have professed your unabashed for Chris Perry on this very thread multiple times.

 

[Craig_MiamiFL]

Chris Perry isn't a good comparison because he never accomplished anything of note in the NFL and (IMO) was never all that good in the first place.

Hold it right there, EBF.You have professed your unabashed for Chris Perry on this very thread multiple times.

Everyone and their mother loved this guy when he looked terrific when Rudi was the lead back. Guy looked like he'd be a PPR stud in time.Injuries were the downfall of this guy. You can only sit so many seasons out. Was painful to watch him last year seeing how much his physical talent had eroded.

 

[Couch Potato]

Chris Perry isn't a good comparison because he never accomplished anything of note in the NFL and (IMO) was never all that good in the first place.

Hold it right there, EBF.You have professed your unabashed for Chris Perry on this very thread multiple times.

There was a time before injuries robbed him of his legs that Perry was pretty dang good IMO. We'll never know how his career would have turned out had he stayed healthy. Like Caddy.

 

[EBF]

Chris Perry isn't a good comparison because he never accomplished anything of note in the NFL and (IMO) was never all that good in the first place.

Hold it right there, EBF.You have professed your unabashed for Chris Perry on this very thread multiple times.

I think I owned Perry on 2 of my dynasty teams. The first time was as a throw-in in a Deuce McAllister/Warrick Dunn trade that I made when Deuce first tore his ACL. The second time was as a waiver pickup after he had already been cut by another team. I have never drafted Chris Perry onto one of my rosters nor have I ever actively pursued him in trades. I may have recommended Perry as a dirt cheap buy low candidate, but he has never been one of "my guys." I thought he was a bad pick by the Bengals. Most people did. He routinely fell to the 6-12 range in rookie drafts that year despite being one of only three first round RBs in that draft. That said, I'm always intrigued by high NFL draft picks who haven't played enough to prove that they suck. Sometimes you get William Green or Chris Perry. Sometimes you get Thomas Jones or Larry Johnson. Cadillac is a compelling case because, unlike Green and Perry, he has actually looked pretty good when healthy. He's potentially a starting caliber NFL talent and he's young enough to play for 3-4 more years at a high level. That's what makes him an appealing buy low option. Some people see it differently. That's precisely why he's a buy low candidate. If everyone thought he was a good sleeper, he wouldn't be widely available for cheap. Finding cheap values in dynasty drafts is about recognizing a player's value before the consensus catches on. If you thought Eddie Royal and DeAngelo Williams were going to break out before it actually happened, you could've gotten them far below their eventual market value. Maybe Cadillac Williams can be one of those guys. Either way, hee's the type of player that I like to hoard in the late rounds of a dynasty league: latent upside at an obscenely low cost.

 

[SSOG]

The difference to me between Caddy and Thomas Jones is that Thomas Jones actually looked really good in Tampa. Not only were his conventional stats solid, but he really won me over with how he was running and how effective he was. I've never been a fan of Caddy, even after his rookie year when everyone was all over him. As I've said a couple of times, he's a guy whose entire career has pretty much been built on a single run.

I can see why people would view him as a good buy low, especially if they were high on his talent once upon a time before all the injuries hit. I never was, which is why I'm lower on him now than some.

 

[mcintyre1]

but at what point does it begin to be Denver's fault just as much as Marshall's?

WTF?! This guys is a useless P.O.S., and you're actually attempting to turn him into a victim. Why didn't the Broncos stop him from all of these arrests and more? Why didn't the Broncos just look the other way when he acted like a petulant child in practice? Why didn't the Broncos hand him Larry Fitzgerald money when he can't stop slapping his women, causing domestic disturbances, and falling through television sets?

It's absolutely preposterously to place the blame for Brandon Marshall's current predicament anywhere but on Brandon Marshall himself.

So, in short, there is no point where it begins to be Denver's fault just as much as Marshall's. Nothing the Broncos can do will make Marshall happy short of trading him to another team, and the Broncos won't do that for obvious reasons. Nor should they feel obligated to.

I don't really feel like arguing about this much longer, as its pretty clear where each of us feel about him. I'm not defending the guy as a person, or his actions. What I AM saying, is that Denver (in the last year) has shown that they are not good at dealing with their star player's egos. Are we really going to go around claiming that a sizeable portion of NFL stars aren't on the same level as Marshall and Cutler as prima-donnas? It's (unfortunately) part of the game. I agree that Denver shouldn't trade away Marshall. He's too talented to let go. However, it was Denver's fault that they gave Marshall the impression he would be traded after he asked. From Marshall's point of view (which we all agree, is pretty ridiculous), he's been slighted by the team. Combine that with Denver not wanting to extend his contract, and we've reached the current situation. Whatever. We've clearly established that I should never include Brandon Marshall as part of a trade offer to you in our league

 

[SSOG]

For those who want a little bit of my history on Caddy... I dug up some old posts I made in the summer after his rookie year.When discussing what RBs were likely to move into the top 10:"Cadillac Williams - I know the final 3 spots are going to be filled by Cadillac Williams, Ronnie Brown, and Steven "Action" Jackson. In the end, I think Caddy's probably got the worst upside of the 3, and has the least natural talent (both by himself, and in his O-line)... but he also has the most favorable coaching situation. We know Gruden possesses a willingness to pound Williams to a pulp repeatedly throwing him directly into the teeth of the defense until he makes something happen. That's a willingness that I really like to see from the coach of my fantasy RB."When discussing why I wasn't a Caddy fan:"My concern isn't that his best games came against bad defenses. It's that his ONLY GOOD GAMES came against bad defenses. That goes and raises the Kevin Jones Red Flag ™."

I don't really feel like arguing about this much longer, as its pretty clear where each of us feel about him. I'm not defending the guy as a person, or his actions. What I AM saying, is that Denver (in the last year) has shown that they are not good at dealing with their star player's egos. Are we really going to go around claiming that a sizeable portion of NFL stars aren't on the same level as Marshall and Cutler as prima-donnas? It's (unfortunately) part of the game. I agree that Denver shouldn't trade away Marshall. He's too talented to let go. However, it was Denver's fault that they gave Marshall the impression he would be traded after he asked. From Marshall's point of view (which we all agree, is pretty ridiculous), he's been slighted by the team. Combine that with Denver not wanting to extend his contract, and we've reached the current situation. Whatever. We've clearly established that I should never include Brandon Marshall as part of a trade offer to you in our league

Marshall's holdout has nothing to do with his contract status. He felt the training staff was secretly out to get him and decided he had to get out of town.And I would suggest that there is not a single NFL player who is as big of a prima donna as Marshall. Even Terrell Owens at his worst never made a mockery of practice. When he was on the field, he was going hard. Sure, he did his best to stay off the field, but he learned the playbook and he showed up for his teammates.

 

[renesauz]

He's not any less talented than 20-30 of the guys ranked ahead of him.

He wasn't any less talented three years ago, but we really don't know how talented he is now after two major knee operations. How much did he leave on the operating table? I don't think it's wise to assume he has the same talent now, just as it wasn't wise to assume that Chris Perry was the same talent at this time last season as he was in his rookie season.

If we knew he was at 100% then he would be ranked a lot higher.Finding steals in dynasty leagues is about finding premium talents at discounted prices. I was able to get Thomas Jones in the 10th round of a startup draft several years ago because everyone else thought he was garbage. I had seen him make some nice runs with the Bucs and I knew he had the potential to unseat Anthony Thomas in Chicago. I'm always on the lookout for solid talents who have been prematurely forgotten. Cadillac Williams is an obvious candidate this season. Yes, we don't know that he's the same player he was a few years ago, but we also don't know that he isn't. He's only a few years removed from being a consensus top 10 dynasty pick and he's young enough to potentially find new life with another team just like Thomas Jones did. It's not all that difficult to envision a scenario in which he excels and emerges.What makes players like this appealing isn't a sky high probability of success, but rather a dirt cheap price tag. How often are you going to find a 27 year old former top 5 pick OROY sitting around in the 20th round of your dynasty draft? That's great value at a position where promising young players tend to be grossly overdrafted.Chris Perry isn't a good comparison because he never accomplished anything of note in the NFL and (IMO) was never all that good in the first place. I think Cadillac Williams at 100% is potentially a starting caliber NFL RB. He's not a lock for success by any means, but I like the risk/reward equation if you can get him at scrub prices. Many of the players ranked in the same range in the current FBG dynasty list are DOA worthless.

This answers SSOG's question of me better then I could. There isn't a single RB in that rankings tier that I would take ahead of Caddy. Most of the RB's in tier six should go ahead of him, and are. Caddy is carrying an RB5+ pricetag, but could put up RB2/3 type numbers if he's really back to health. Most of the guys in his tier are unlikely to ever see RB2 numbers.Top 50...yes.Top 40....potentially, but I'm not buying him there either. The Norwood/Charles/McGahee area seems appropriate to me.

 

[corpcow]

What do you guys think about Jared Cook? I'm trying to get a handle on his value in a non-PPE league that doesn't require TEs. (In this case, we start RB, WR, WR/RB flex and 2 WR/TE flex).

In a scenario like this, how do you compare him to some of the other rookie WRs?

 

[Willie Mays Hayes]

What do you guys think about Jared Cook? I'm trying to get a handle on his value in a non-PPE league that doesn't require TEs. (In this case, we start RB, WR, WR/RB flex and 2 WR/TE flex).

In a scenario like this, how do you compare him to some of the other rookie WRs?

This format makes the TE position almost useless in your league. Statistically speaking, the 5th best TE is about on the same par as the 36th WR in the format you describe above. So, unless you're nabbing a Top 1-5 TE, there may not be much value in the selection. However, after the 36th WR has been selected in a draft, the TE's certainly make as much sense as anyone.Now, with respect to Jared Cook - I have huge manlove for him...especially as a Dynasty selection. I think he ends the year as the #12-15 TE this year and has Top 5 TE potential by 2011. That still only puts him on par with around the #25 WR for any given year if you're averaging a little. I think there will be about 5 rookie WR's from this class that will be above him if you were to look at those rankings in 2011 (Nicks, Harvin, Crabtree, Maclin and Mike Thomas {because you need at least one sleeper of the bunch}).

That's just my view. If you wanted to break that down into a draft strategy, I'd look to take Cook after at least the first 5 rookie WR's...and you could probably get away with watching him drop deeper as others in your league consider the TE an position as an afterthought.

 

[corpcow]

What do you guys think about Jared Cook? I'm trying to get a handle on his value in a non-PPE league that doesn't require TEs. (In this case, we start RB, WR, WR/RB flex and 2 WR/TE flex).

In a scenario like this, how do you compare him to some of the other rookie WRs?

This format makes the TE position almost useless in your league. Statistically speaking, the 5th best TE is about on the same par as the 36th WR in the format you describe above. So, unless you're nabbing a Top 1-5 TE, there may not be much value in the selection. However, after the 36th WR has been selected in a draft, the TE's certainly make as much sense as anyone.Now, with respect to Jared Cook - I have huge manlove for him...especially as a Dynasty selection. I think he ends the year as the #12-15 TE this year and has Top 5 TE potential by 2011. That still only puts him on par with around the #25 WR for any given year if you're averaging a little. I think there will be about 5 rookie WR's from this class that will be above him if you were to look at those rankings in 2011 (Nicks, Harvin, Crabtree, Maclin and Mike Thomas {because you need at least one sleeper of the bunch}).

That's just my view. If you wanted to break that down into a draft strategy, I'd look to take Cook after at least the first 5 rookie WR's...and you could probably get away with watching him drop deeper as others in your league consider the TE an position as an afterthought.

TEs aren't entirely useless, but you're right - they need to be elite to really be viable starters. With 16 teams and at least 3 WR/TE being started weekly, that's 48 deep. On top of that, not all teams have 2 viable RB starters, so a number of teams start as many as 4. If we say an average of 3.4 started across the league, then we're talking ~55 WR/TE being started on a weekly basis. If you break out the rankings last year, there were 8 TEs in the top 55 (both overall and on a pts per week basis, though the list is slightly different).

There were 3 TEs last year (Gonzo, Witten, Clark) who finished in the top 32 overall, with Gonzo breaking into the top 10.

I think the question boils down to - especially when you factor in that TEs generally go cheaper than WRs because of this perception - do you think Cook has a better shot at being a top 5 TE or Maclin/THomas/et al breaking into the top 30 WR?

And from an upside perspective - who on that list can you see Cook outperforming straight up?

At this point, every rookie there mentioned is gone. Tate and Cook are the caliber of rookies left after the rookie signing deadline passed, and WRs like Clowney, Justin Harper, etc.

 

[kremenull]

Since when did we get in the business of downgrading guys on the account of Chris Brown?

It has little to do with Chris Brown and a lot to do with Kubiak making it clear on several occasions that he'd rather Slaton did not receive deep red zone carries. As I'm sure I don't have to tell you, those carries are more valuable than other carries, and Slaton needs to keep quite a few of them to maintain year-after-year value. One of my biggest concerns with Slaton is that he has some Willie Parker in him, where coaches will continue to take pieces of responsibility from him. Kubiak just took a huge chunk.

I haven't read anything that says that Slaton will NOT be used in the red zone. The commentary from Kubiak stated that Chris Brown would be used as "a short-yardage and a red zone runner." That doesn't equate to Brown being the sole red zone or goal line RB from my interpretation. But more importantly, from their most recent game I recall seeing Slaton rumble in from 3 or 4 yds right up the gut. Looks like he got the job done if you ask me. I think much has been overblown about Slaton and his expected lack of goal line touches. First, I'll believe it when I see it. Second, Slaton has to prove that he cannot do it for the Texans to solely rely on Chris Brown or anybody else at the goal line. I don't recall this guy (Brown) being the ultimate red zone threat in the NFL.....maybe in his one glorious college season, but in the NFL, I haven't seen it from him.

 

[Cookiemonster]

For all the hate and lack of acknowledgement of Brown's skills, I have to wonder if the Shark Pool is only for people that have been watching football for 3 years or less. Yeah, he's as injury prone as they get, but to completely discount his abilities is a bit foolish.

 

[thriftyrocker]

I think the question boils down to - especially when you factor in that TEs generally go cheaper than WRs because of this perception - do you think Cook has a better shot at being a top 5 TE or Maclin/THomas/et al breaking into the top 30 WR?

I think this is a good WR class and a weak TE class. I counted 13 WRs with a legit chance of being top 30 a couple years from now from Harvin and Crabtree down to Wallace and Collie. They all have much higher upside, even if they are at a bigger risk of being out of the league next year.Cook has 0 shot at being = a top 15 WR. Cook's upside in WR/TE equivalent leagues is a #3 WR, which is too low for me to buy. TEs, even well groomed ones, take a long time to mature. And Cook is not exactly well groomed. So you're going to have to wait for the reward too.WRs equivalent to Cook at his peak are on the waivers anytime you want. I have leagues with > 330 players owned where Muhsin is unowned, and he was a top 30 WR last year, legit fantasy #3. I don't see Cook ever getting 65/900/5 which were MM's numbers last year.

 

[Tau837]

Since when did we get in the business of downgrading guys on the account of Chris Brown?

It has little to do with Chris Brown and a lot to do with Kubiak making it clear on several occasions that he'd rather Slaton did not receive deep red zone carries. As I'm sure I don't have to tell you, those carries are more valuable than other carries, and Slaton needs to keep quite a few of them to maintain year-after-year value. One of my biggest concerns with Slaton is that he has some Willie Parker in him, where coaches will continue to take pieces of responsibility from him. Kubiak just took a huge chunk.

I haven't read anything that says that Slaton will NOT be used in the red zone. The commentary from Kubiak stated that Chris Brown would be used as "a short-yardage and a red zone runner." That doesn't equate to Brown being the sole red zone or goal line RB from my interpretation. But more importantly, from their most recent game I recall seeing Slaton rumble in from 3 or 4 yds right up the gut. Looks like he got the job done if you ask me. I think much has been overblown about Slaton and his expected lack of goal line touches. First, I'll believe it when I see it. Second, Slaton has to prove that he cannot do it for the Texans to solely rely on Chris Brown or anybody else at the goal line. I don't recall this guy (Brown) being the ultimate red zone threat in the NFL.....maybe in his one glorious college season, but in the NFL, I haven't seen it from him.

Slaton was terrible at the goal line last year. Arguably the worst in the league. Only one player in the league (Lendale, with 21 attempts) had more rushing attempts from the opponent's 5 yard line to the goal line... Slaton had 20 rushing attempts and only got 10 yards and 4 TDs, and no first downs. Given that terrible performance last year, I am not at all surprised that Kubiak would want to turn over goal line work to another RB. And that is obviously not good for Slaton's fantasy value.

 

[Fear & Loathing]

Since when did we get in the business of downgrading guys on the account of Chris Brown?

It has little to do with Chris Brown and a lot to do with Kubiak making it clear on several occasions that he'd rather Slaton did not receive deep red zone carries. As I'm sure I don't have to tell you, those carries are more valuable than other carries, and Slaton needs to keep quite a few of them to maintain year-after-year value. One of my biggest concerns with Slaton is that he has some Willie Parker in him, where coaches will continue to take pieces of responsibility from him. Kubiak just took a huge chunk.

I haven't read anything that says that Slaton will NOT be used in the red zone. The commentary from Kubiak stated that Chris Brown would be used as "a short-yardage and a red zone runner." That doesn't equate to Brown being the sole red zone or goal line RB from my interpretation. But more importantly, from their most recent game I recall seeing Slaton rumble in from 3 or 4 yds right up the gut. Looks like he got the job done if you ask me. I think much has been overblown about Slaton and his expected lack of goal line touches. First, I'll believe it when I see it. Second, Slaton has to prove that he cannot do it for the Texans to solely rely on Chris Brown or anybody else at the goal line. I don't recall this guy (Brown) being the ultimate red zone threat in the NFL.....maybe in his one glorious college season, but in the NFL, I haven't seen it from him.

I don't blame you for being in denial, kremenull. I'm sure I would be too if I burned a second-round pick on Slaton in a startup Dynasty league last month only to watch him morph into a bizarre mixture of Willie Parker and Joseph Addai over the next season.

 

[J R]

I'm late to the Cadillac Williams talk, but chiming in anyway.

In the last 2 seasons, he has averaged about 40 ypg and 3.8 ypc. Last year, his ypc was significantly worse than the other 2 primary RB on their roster (4.3 for Graham, 4.2 for Dunn, 3.7 for Caddy).

Last year he averaged about 40 ypg while job-sharing with only 1 RB, Dunn, b/c he came back after Graham was hurt. This year, he will be job-sharing with 2 RB.

It seems to me, then, that you're hoping for an injury just to get 40 ypg out of the guy.

 

[Willie Mays Hayes]

What do you guys think about Jared Cook? I'm trying to get a handle on his value in a non-PPE league that doesn't require TEs. (In this case, we start RB, WR, WR/RB flex and 2 WR/TE flex).

In a scenario like this, how do you compare him to some of the other rookie WRs?

This format makes the TE position almost useless in your league. Statistically speaking, the 5th best TE is about on the same par as the 36th WR in the format you describe above. So, unless you're nabbing a Top 1-5 TE, there may not be much value in the selection. However, after the 36th WR has been selected in a draft, the TE's certainly make as much sense as anyone.Now, with respect to Jared Cook - I have huge manlove for him...especially as a Dynasty selection. I think he ends the year as the #12-15 TE this year and has Top 5 TE potential by 2011. That still only puts him on par with around the #25 WR for any given year if you're averaging a little. I think there will be about 5 rookie WR's from this class that will be above him if you were to look at those rankings in 2011 (Nicks, Harvin, Crabtree, Maclin and Mike Thomas {because you need at least one sleeper of the bunch}).

That's just my view. If you wanted to break that down into a draft strategy, I'd look to take Cook after at least the first 5 rookie WR's...and you could probably get away with watching him drop deeper as others in your league consider the TE an position as an afterthought.

TEs aren't entirely useless, but you're right - they need to be elite to really be viable starters. With 16 teams and at least 3 WR/TE being started weekly, that's 48 deep. On top of that, not all teams have 2 viable RB starters, so a number of teams start as many as 4. If we say an average of 3.4 started across the league, then we're talking ~55 WR/TE being started on a weekly basis. If you break out the rankings last year, there were 8 TEs in the top 55 (both overall and on a pts per week basis, though the list is slightly different).

There were 3 TEs last year (Gonzo, Witten, Clark) who finished in the top 32 overall, with Gonzo breaking into the top 10.

I think the question boils down to - especially when you factor in that TEs generally go cheaper than WRs because of this perception - do you think Cook has a better shot at being a top 5 TE or Maclin/THomas/et al breaking into the top 30 WR?

And from an upside perspective - who on that list can you see Cook outperforming straight up?

At this point, every rookie there mentioned is gone. Tate and Cook are the caliber of rookies left after the rookie signing deadline passed, and WRs like Clowney, Justin Harper, etc.

Tate is a boom or bust and the fact he ended up on NEP's roster downgrades him some in my eyes since they seem to willingly bring in veterans as opposed to developing young talent. See Chad Jackson.I would take Jared Cook in a heartbeat over Brandon Tate if that is what we're discussing.

 

[Cookiemonster]

I'm late to the Cadillac Williams talk, but chiming in anyway.In the last 2 seasons, he has averaged about 40 ypg and 3.8 ypc. Last year, his ypc was significantly worse than the other 2 primary RB on their roster (4.3 for Graham, 4.2 for Dunn, 3.7 for Caddy).Last year he averaged about 40 ypg while job-sharing with only 1 RB, Dunn, b/c he came back after Graham was hurt. This year, he will be job-sharing with 2 RB.It seems to me, then, that you're hoping for an injury just to get 40 ypg out of the guy.

???And you think the last two seasons are worth judging in any way? 2007 = torn patellar tendon. 2008 = torn other patellar tendon. 54 and 63 carries respectively, the 63 in a season coming off a patellar tendon tear. I don't get the logic. If you're projecting his 2009 stats, 40 yards per game sounds fine to me, and nobody is trying to convince you to start him week 1. It's a DYNASTY thread, and there's plenty opportunity for the rest of his career. You do realize the game he tore his other knee, he had 12 for 78 and a 6.5 ypc with 2 TDs?

 

[thriftyrocker]

4.3 for Graham

Earnest Graham was murder after week 5. Why is anyone pretending he has any value anymore?

Last year he averaged about 40 ypg while job-sharing with only 1 RB, Dunn, b/c he came back after Graham was hurt. This year, he will be job-sharing with 2 RB.It seems to me, then, that you're hoping for an injury just to get 40 ypg out of the guy.

It's no mystery what people are hoping for. They're hoping for his week 17 line. Or maybe his last 3 games of 08 - 4.8 YPC. Or what they saw in the preseason game. Averaging out his YPC for the 08 season is pretty disingenuous given what he was trying to come back from. Guess what, it is tough to come back from PCL tears.

 

[corpcow]

I think the question boils down to - especially when you factor in that TEs generally go cheaper than WRs because of this perception - do you think Cook has a better shot at being a top 5 TE or Maclin/THomas/et al breaking into the top 30 WR?

I think this is a good WR class and a weak TE class. I counted 13 WRs with a legit chance of being top 30 a couple years from now from Harvin and Crabtree down to Wallace and Collie. They all have much higher upside, even if they are at a bigger risk of being out of the league next year.Cook has 0 shot at being = a top 15 WR. Cook's upside in WR/TE equivalent leagues is a #3 WR, which is too low for me to buy. TEs, even well groomed ones, take a long time to mature. And Cook is not exactly well groomed. So you're going to have to wait for the reward too.WRs equivalent to Cook at his peak are on the waivers anytime you want. I have leagues with > 330 players owned where Muhsin is unowned, and he was a top 30 WR last year, legit fantasy #3. I don't see Cook ever getting 65/900/5 which were MM's numbers last year.

Thanks... that's helpful.I think the thing about Cook that has/had me excited is the size/speed combo and the repeated comparisons to Calvin. On top of this, he had 17 catches for 159 yards in the preseason - great numbers, of course, but more importantly was that it wasn't just a situation of him having one huge play in one game padding those stats... he was heavily involved in the passing offense there.On a related note - which of the rookie WRs do you think has the most upside given this depth? I'd love to hear more perspectives on the relative risk/upside of the mid-late round guys. In my primary dynasty league (16 teams with the above mentioned format), I drafted Maclin and Thomas - but I didn't sign Thomas and didn't bid on him when he hit UFA either (he went for the min, which was about 1/3 of what he would have cost for me to sign as a 3rd round pick). I love Thomas and his upside, but it worried me not being able to see him play at all in the preseason. (Just for context, my team is pretty solid, but young. E.g., my current WR/TE corps is Holmes, Avery, Driver, Keller, Maclin, Rice, Stevie Johnson and Malcolm Floyd. My RBs are Chris Johnson, Thomas Jones, Beanie, Donald Brown and Bernard Scott. My QBs are RYan and Russell. My defense is pretty young across the board). So, my goals here are not someone "boring" who will produce at a WR32-48 level, but someone who has top 16 upside. THis is why I was somewhat intrigued by Cook.... I really thought long and hard about Thomas there, but decided to hold off just given who else was out there and that he hadn't played yet. I'm currently considering Tate and Cook both of whom are currently available. What kind of guys in that WR40-60 range do you think have a legit shot to be a WR1 if given the opportunity, even if the relative probability of that opportunity coming to pass is low? Do you think guys like Stroughter or Tate can be top 32 players?

 

[Frank Costanza's Lawyer]

Tate is a boom or bust and the fact he ended up on NEP's roster downgrades him some in my eyes since they seem to willingly bring in veterans as opposed to developing young talent. See Chad Jackson.I would take Jared Cook in a heartbeat over Brandon Tate if that is what we're discussing.

That argument might hold water if Jackson had done anything after leaving New England.I agree with Bloom in that NE might end up being a good landing spot for him. He effectively gets a red-shirt season during which he can recover and learn the offense. His character question marks are less of a concern on a team like New England. Also, Galloway will likely be gone next year.

 

[Goat Herders]

I think the question boils down to - especially when you factor in that TEs generally go cheaper than WRs because of this perception - do you think Cook has a better shot at being a top 5 TE or Maclin/THomas/et al breaking into the top 30

WCook is going to be a STUD. There are ZERO WRs in dynasty this year I would select ahead of Cook.

 

[corpcow]

I think the question boils down to - especially when you factor in that TEs generally go cheaper than WRs because of this perception - do you think Cook has a better shot at being a top 5 TE or Maclin/THomas/et al breaking into the top 30

WCook is going to be a STUD. There are ZERO WRs in dynasty this year I would select ahead of Cook.

THose are bold words. Care to elaborate?

 

[King of the Jungle]

I think the question boils down to - especially when you factor in that TEs generally go cheaper than WRs because of this perception - do you think Cook has a better shot at being a top 5 TE or Maclin/THomas/et al breaking into the top 30

WCook is going to be a STUD. There are ZERO WRs in dynasty this year I would select ahead of Cook.

You would select Cook above Crabtree & Nicks. I like your ability to be crazy and fun.

 

[J R]

I'm late to the Cadillac Williams talk, but chiming in anyway.

In the last 2 seasons, he has averaged about 40 ypg and 3.8 ypc. Last year, his ypc was significantly worse than the other 2 primary RB on their roster (4.3 for Graham, 4.2 for Dunn, 3.7 for Caddy).

Last year he averaged about 40 ypg while job-sharing with only 1 RB, Dunn, b/c he came back after Graham was hurt. This year, he will be job-sharing with 2 RB.

It seems to me, then, that you're hoping for an injury just to get 40 ypg out of the guy.

???And you think the last two seasons are worth judging in any way? 2007 = torn patellar tendon. 2008 = torn other patellar tendon. 54 and 63 carries respectively, the 63 in a season coming off a patellar tendon tear. I don't get the logic. If you're projecting his 2009 stats, 40 yards per game sounds fine to me, and nobody is trying to convince you to start him week 1. It's a DYNASTY thread, and there's plenty opportunity for the rest of his career. You do realize the game he tore his other knee, he had 12 for 78 and a 6.5 ypc with 2 TDs?

I guess I assumed the idea that Cadillac has long-term value was negated by the injuries, and that the argument was over what dynasty value his short-term prospects were worth.

 

[Goat Herders]

THose are bold words. Care to elaborate?

You would select Cook above Crabtree & Nicks. I like your ability to be crazy and fun.

Many many moons ago, I was screaming from the rooftops that Jason Witten was going to be a force. Sure enough, it happened. I'm not saying that to boast (well, maybe a little) but to highlight that I'm a heck of a lot better gauging TEs then WRs and RBs. For starters, I realize that for the most part a TE can only be a fantasy force if he is either very special in a unique way (think Gates' speed and height) or something very special in a common way (think Bo Scaife being an excellent blocker, thus he stays on the field a lot). Cook is more of the former. HE is a pretty mediocre (at best) blocker but that doesn't matter. Crumpler is relishing the blocking role this year, figuring it will extend his career for a couple of seasons. He's on record saying he'd rather not catch a pass at all this year since he knows Scaife and Cook have that area covered. Scaife is as valuable a member of the offense as there is (seriously) because he can block, shift, catch, etc. So where does Cook fit in? Simple - as a guy we call a "tight end" but in reality is moving all over the field as a pass catcher. He'll be in the slot, the H-back spot, maybe out wide, but my best guess is that he, Scaife, and Gage will end up with about the same number of receptions this season. Gage will have the highest YPR, Cook 2nd, Scaife 3rd. No idea who has the most TDs. But that's this season. I would imagine that by next year, Cook will have settled in to the TE position that OC Mike Heimerdinger loves; lots of targets all over the field. He'll go across the middle from the interior, he'll go deep from the flanker spot, etc. The bottom line is that his talent as a receiver is ALREADY good enough that like CJ a year ago, the Titans coaches are going to be thinking, "how do we get the ball in his hands." Whereas Scaife is going to the 2nd or 3rd option when he catches the ball, there will be some plays where the huddle breaks and the team/coaches are going to think, "If Jared gets open this could be a BIG one." THere are comparisons to SHannon SHarpe, which is stupid. But Jared Cook has the ability to do a LOT of things on the field, whether he's called a TE or HBack or WR. And the Titans, who rarely trade up for ANYTHING and even more rarely give up a later year pick, have a big investment in him adding an element to the passing game they can't get from Gage, Washington, etc.I'm guessing a floor of 40/500/4 this season with a ceiling of 60/800/9. ANd after this year, I think he's off to the races as a top-5 TE for quite a while...

 

[kremenull]

Since when did we get in the business of downgrading guys on the account of Chris Brown?

It has little to do with Chris Brown and a lot to do with Kubiak making it clear on several occasions that he'd rather Slaton did not receive deep red zone carries. As I'm sure I don't have to tell you, those carries are more valuable than other carries, and Slaton needs to keep quite a few of them to maintain year-after-year value. One of my biggest concerns with Slaton is that he has some Willie Parker in him, where coaches will continue to take pieces of responsibility from him. Kubiak just took a huge chunk.

I haven't read anything that says that Slaton will NOT be used in the red zone. The commentary from Kubiak stated that Chris Brown would be used as "a short-yardage and a red zone runner." That doesn't equate to Brown being the sole red zone or goal line RB from my interpretation. But more importantly, from their most recent game I recall seeing Slaton rumble in from 3 or 4 yds right up the gut. Looks like he got the job done if you ask me. I think much has been overblown about Slaton and his expected lack of goal line touches. First, I'll believe it when I see it. Second, Slaton has to prove that he cannot do it for the Texans to solely rely on Chris Brown or anybody else at the goal line. I don't recall this guy (Brown) being the ultimate red zone threat in the NFL.....maybe in his one glorious college season, but in the NFL, I haven't seen it from him.

Slaton was terrible at the goal line last year. Arguably the worst in the league. Only one player in the league (Lendale, with 21 attempts) had more rushing attempts from the opponent's 5 yard line to the goal line... Slaton had 20 rushing attempts and only got 10 yards and 4 TDs, and no first downs. Given that terrible performance last year, I am not at all surprised that Kubiak would want to turn over goal line work to another RB. And that is obviously not good for Slaton's fantasy value.

Well, have you seen one regular season game THIS YEAR where Slaton has been removed at the goal line in favor of Brown, on a regular basis. NO! Last year is past tense. But I will tell you what I have seen, so far THIS OFFSEASON.Slaton bulking up to 215+ lbs on a compact frame. And with that compact frame, I witnessed him plowing over defenders at the goal line as well as on other runs. So bottom line is when Slaton stops getting 1500+ total yds and double-digit scores, then I'll believe that his value has gone down. Until then, none of this "chatter" means anything with regards to his value slipping. A common mistake in fantasy is to overreact to the littlest of snippets and misinformation. When guys like Slaton and Felix are packing on lbs., which invariably a young, driven, hard-working, "wanna-be great" RB will do (shore up any weaknesses), that means much more, IMO, than hearsay. Actions (plowing over the goal line, which both of these guys are doing) speak louder than these words.

 

[kremenull]

Since when did we get in the business of downgrading guys on the account of Chris Brown?

It has little to do with Chris Brown and a lot to do with Kubiak making it clear on several occasions that he'd rather Slaton did not receive deep red zone carries. As I'm sure I don't have to tell you, those carries are more valuable than other carries, and Slaton needs to keep quite a few of them to maintain year-after-year value. One of my biggest concerns with Slaton is that he has some Willie Parker in him, where coaches will continue to take pieces of responsibility from him. Kubiak just took a huge chunk.

I haven't read anything that says that Slaton will NOT be used in the red zone. The commentary from Kubiak stated that Chris Brown would be used as "a short-yardage and a red zone runner." That doesn't equate to Brown being the sole red zone or goal line RB from my interpretation. But more importantly, from their most recent game I recall seeing Slaton rumble in from 3 or 4 yds right up the gut. Looks like he got the job done if you ask me. I think much has been overblown about Slaton and his expected lack of goal line touches. First, I'll believe it when I see it. Second, Slaton has to prove that he cannot do it for the Texans to solely rely on Chris Brown or anybody else at the goal line. I don't recall this guy (Brown) being the ultimate red zone threat in the NFL.....maybe in his one glorious college season, but in the NFL, I haven't seen it from him.

I don't blame you for being in denial, kremenull. I'm sure I would be too if I burned a second-round pick on Slaton in a startup Dynasty league last month only to watch him morph into a bizarre mixture of Willie Parker and Joseph Addai over the next season. :(

Now that is funny.....Highly questionable, but funny. But we're going to take a snapshot of this one and replay it at the end of the year....

 

[benm3218]

lil debbie just got her goal line carries taken away... Slaton = BUST!

 

[Tau837]

Since when did we get in the business of downgrading guys on the account of Chris Brown?

It has little to do with Chris Brown and a lot to do with Kubiak making it clear on several occasions that he'd rather Slaton did not receive deep red zone carries. As I'm sure I don't have to tell you, those carries are more valuable than other carries, and Slaton needs to keep quite a few of them to maintain year-after-year value. One of my biggest concerns with Slaton is that he has some Willie Parker in him, where coaches will continue to take pieces of responsibility from him. Kubiak just took a huge chunk.

I haven't read anything that says that Slaton will NOT be used in the red zone. The commentary from Kubiak stated that Chris Brown would be used as "a short-yardage and a red zone runner." That doesn't equate to Brown being the sole red zone or goal line RB from my interpretation. But more importantly, from their most recent game I recall seeing Slaton rumble in from 3 or 4 yds right up the gut. Looks like he got the job done if you ask me. I think much has been overblown about Slaton and his expected lack of goal line touches. First, I'll believe it when I see it. Second, Slaton has to prove that he cannot do it for the Texans to solely rely on Chris Brown or anybody else at the goal line. I don't recall this guy (Brown) being the ultimate red zone threat in the NFL.....maybe in his one glorious college season, but in the NFL, I haven't seen it from him.

Slaton was terrible at the goal line last year. Arguably the worst in the league. Only one player in the league (Lendale, with 21 attempts) had more rushing attempts from the opponent's 5 yard line to the goal line... Slaton had 20 rushing attempts and only got 10 yards and 4 TDs, and no first downs. Given that terrible performance last year, I am not at all surprised that Kubiak would want to turn over goal line work to another RB. And that is obviously not good for Slaton's fantasy value.

Well, have you seen one regular season game THIS YEAR where Slaton has been removed at the goal line in favor of Brown, on a regular basis. NO! Last year is past tense. But I will tell you what I have seen, so far THIS OFFSEASON.Slaton bulking up to 215+ lbs on a compact frame. And with that compact frame, I witnessed him plowing over defenders at the goal line as well as on other runs. So bottom line is when Slaton stops getting 1500+ total yds and double-digit scores, then I'll believe that his value has gone down. Until then, none of this "chatter" means anything with regards to his value slipping. A common mistake in fantasy is to overreact to the littlest of snippets and misinformation. When guys like Slaton and Felix are packing on lbs., which invariably a young, driven, hard-working, "wanna-be great" RB will do (shore up any weaknesses), that means much more, IMO, than hearsay. Actions (plowing over the goal line, which both of these guys are doing) speak louder than these words.

Pretty amusing that you lecture me about last year being past tense and then go on to cite Slaton's 1500+ yard & double digit TD performance... last year. It's good to see you are consistent.As for common fantasy mistakes, your approach to wait until his value goes down to believe it has gone down is one of the worst. Good luck with that approach.

 

[new-guru]

Need experts and you guys are the best

I could trade this guy

Barber and J. Lewis for K. Moreno and S. Greene

or

J. Addai and J. Lewis for B. Wells and McCoy

Which group of Rookies will produce more

I am fairly new at Dynasty and have a hard time evaluating guys that are producing with guys that could be. I think helping with questions like this is helpful for everyone.

F & L

I have looked at your ranking, which I greatly appreciate, and with Moreno higher than Barber and Lewis so much lowere than Greene is this a no Brainer. I ask guys locally and they thank I'm crazy for wanting to do either one of these trade. However I look at the upside and skills and see a much higher ceiling. Am I over valuing these rookies.

This isn't a question so much as please help me with this trade. It's more please teach me Dynasty which is what I love about this Thread

 

[Cookiemonster]

Need experts and you guys are the bestI could trade this guyBarber and J. Lewis for K. Moreno and S. GreeneorJ. Addai and J. Lewis for B. Wells and McCoyWhich group of Rookies will produce more I am fairly new at Dynasty and have a hard time evaluating guys that are producing with guys that could be. I think helping with questions like this is helpful for everyone.F & LI have looked at your ranking, which I greatly appreciate, and with Moreno higher than Barber and Lewis so much lowere than Greene is this a no Brainer. I ask guys locally and they thank I'm crazy for wanting to do either one of these trade. However I look at the upside and skills and see a much higher ceiling. Am I over valuing these rookies.This isn't a question so much as please help me with this trade. It's more please teach me Dynasty which is what I love about this Thread

I think either would be good for you in the long run, as Lewis is on his last leg. I'm not sure either deal is a big plus over the other, but I like Moreno more than Wells and Greene more than McCoy, however Barber will likely hold value longer than Addai. Wells & McCoy may very well outproduce Moreno and Greene this year so it really depends on whether or not you're competitive now, and what else you have on your roster. If it were me, I'd see if you could squeeze a late pick on the end of either deal and take whichever one you can get more out of. In dynasty, of course winning now is very important but it's very important to look beyond just this year. Moreno has a very good, young O line and Greene should take a complimentary role to Leon by next year. Wells lands in a good offense, and may be worth more PPG while being a higher injury risk. McCoy doesn't look like a feature back to me, but could be a much better value in PPR. Addai may be phased out sooner than Barber, and while there is significant risk of Barber losing the feature role to Felix, he will maintain much better value than Addai if/when D.Brown eats bigger and bigger slices of the Indy pie. I think the moral of the story is that Lewis' value is circling the drain and if you can get ANYTHING for him, do it.