Dynasty Rankings (4 Viewers)

[Concept Coop]

Might want to get your "eyeball test" checked.

The only problem they will find during my "eyeball test" is that i dont let stats impair my vision.

You mean besides "He averaged 4+ YPC in his first two years in Buffalo, rushing for 1000 yards in each season." Those sure sound like stats to me.I think they'd probably find that your vision tends to be premature, as evidenced by your characterization of Foster before the season began.

HB, please answer my question: What does Foster do that makes him better than Lynch, or show you that he would perform better, in a vacuum?It is easy to question other people vision, after the fact. Anyone can do that. But how about you share your own?

 

[az_prof]

So where does a guy like current shark pool Danario Alexander slot into the rankings? A unique player/situation...insane measurables/college production vs serious injury concerns...Obviously he was a hell of a specimen before the injury...knee is still a concern but he looked great in his debut game, was given a 4 year contract (indicating the rams have faith in his recovery/abilities). having real trouble knowing how to value the guy

And how about Deion Branch. He is 31 but still, if he is targeted as much as he was this week, in a very solid position, he could be productive for two years more.

He only had 2 catches before the 4th quarter. He is a major injury risk. He's never had more than 5 TDs in a season.If he's free off waivers and it's a PPR league by all means grab him and put him in your lineup. But otherwise, don't get your hopes up.

Not really sure why it is relevent when a receiver catches the ball. Willing to bet a lot of money that all receivers tend to catch more of their balls in the fourth quarter. As for the injury risk: yes. But so are a lot of other players; it detracts some value but if the player is healthy now, and he appears to be, that's more important than past injuries. The past is one indicator of the future, but he has never played in exactly this offense before. The offense was different before in NE and the offense in Seattle was never good. He is starting in an offense that likes to pass and with a QB who trusts him. That's real value. As a WR3 you could do a lot worse this year and next.

 

[Go deep]

He averaged 4+ YPC in his first two years in Buffalo, rushing for 1000 yards in each season. Sure, his 3rd season couldnt have went much worse last year, but between his suspension, and being hurt, not to mention he just wasnt happy in Buffalo, i am willing to give him a mulligan. Being from Buffalo, i am not a big fan of him as a person, but getting to watch him each week, i cant deny he is deifitely talented. He is only 24 and now that he is happy to be out of Buffalo, i feel confident Lynch will be a top 15 fantasy RB for the next several years. ETA spelling

Do you think he is more talented than Foster?

Yes

Might want to get your "eyeball test" checked.

In what ways is Foster better than Lynch?I don't think it is an easy question to asnwer. I think Lynch is a tougher, more athletic runner. I think he is faster, more explosive, and is better at making people miss or breaking tackles. Foster is much more patient. I think Foster fits the Houston scheme better, so I don't know that Lynch could do what Foster is doing in Houston. But I do think that Foster would have struggled just as much, if not more in Buffalo.

Im not disagreeing with you, but i find it funny when people say _________ fits _________ system. Thats just usually means if ________ didnt play for _________ he would not be very good. You never hear people say Barry Sanders fit the Detroit system or Adrian Peterson fits the Vikings system.I actually think Lynch would do well in Houston(who wouldnt). Lynch's biggest problem is he is not shifty enough to make something happen when its not there. Once he gets a head of steam though, he is tough to bring down, and has enough speed to take it the distance. With the running lanes Houston creates Lynch would wreak havoc running past LB's and over DB's.

 

[Go deep]

Might want to get your "eyeball test" checked.

The only problem they will find during my "eyeball test" is that i dont let stats impair my vision.

You mean besides "He averaged 4+ YPC in his first two years in Buffalo, rushing for 1000 yards in each season." Those sure sound like stats to me.I think they'd probably find that your vision tends to be premature, as evidenced by your characterization of Foster before the season began.

I only pointed out his YPC is response to him saying Lynch would ony average 3.5. Obviously i didnt say stats do not matter, but there is alot more to judging talent than looking at stats.

 

[humpback]

In what ways is Foster better than Lynch?I don't think it is an easy question to asnwer. I think Lynch is a tougher, more athletic runner. I think he is faster, more explosive, and is better at making people miss or breaking tackles. Foster is much more patient. I think Foster fits the Houston scheme better, so I don't know that Lynch could do what Foster is doing in Houston. But I do think that Foster would have struggled just as much, if not more in Buffalo.

Geez, it would be nice if you gave more than 5 minutes- some people have other things to do!I agree that it isn't an easy question to answer, primarily because "talent" is subjective. I've watched way too much of Lynch's career, and he's just not very good. The "bestmode" crap gave him this reputation, but his play doesn't warrant it. He does run hard, but so does MBIII, and it's about the only thing he is very good at. Again, this is my opinion because it's impossible to prove, but Foster has much better vision and patience, has a better understanding of the game, he's better at making people miss, better pass catcher, just a better overall RB. I'm not saying Foster is a super talented RB himself, but Lynch is just "blah".

 

[humpback]

I only pointed out his YPC is response to him saying Lynch would ony average 3.5. Obviously i didnt say stats do not matter, but there is alot more to judging talent than looking at stats.

Of course there is, that's why I made the comment about your vision - Lynch just isn't very good, even if you disregard the stats. He's not terrible, but overrated by most IMO.

 

[plyka]

Anyone want to talk about Deangelo Williams' value in a dynasty/keeper format? I play in a PPR keeper where we keep 6 at no cost. I posted this in the dynasty trades thread, but this thread is obviously much more populated. I traded Ladanian and Bowe for deangelo and cotchery. My WRs ahead of Bowe are Fitz, Calvin and Crabtree. My RBs are Best, Forte, Torain and now Deangelo.

What do you guys think of the trade? Did i give up too much value for Deangelo? Do people still consider him an elite talent?

 

[mattyjets]

Torain looked pretty damn good to me. Can he hold on to the starting spot in the future?

Torain is an interesting case. I think he holds the job for a bit, but his liabilities severely limit his upside. Specifically, the guy is God-awfull slow and has limited agility. What he does have is a brutally physical running style that can be very effective in specific situations.His running style is such that I can't see how he could survive as a lead back for more then a season or two. During those couple seasons, he'll be a feast or famine player, running over some defenses while being generally ineffective against other, more physical D's.Great short term value, but if someone is willing to part with high end RB2 value, I'd be selling. He has COP/goal line written all over him.

Agree 100%. He is my #1 sell high prospect. He looks awful running the ball. He is slow, lacks vision, and quite frankly, looks dumb. He is not the long term answer in Washington. If you are competing, you might want to hold on to him, if you need him as a RB2. If you are re-building, or have enough RB talent to start without Torrain, I would be moving him right now.

What if Torain is unfortunately your most productive back on a mid-tier team? I'm rebuilding and I've been offered Donald Brown, not a RB2 but at worst the trade is a wash if Brown doesn't pan out and Torain inevitably loses value heading into '11.

 

[Concept Coop]

Im not disagreeing with you, but i find it funny when people say _________ fits _________ system. Thats just usually means if ________ didnt play for _________ he would not be very good. You never hear people say Barry Sanders fit the Detroit system or Adrian Peterson fits the Vikings system.

I actually think Lynch would do well in Houston(who wouldnt). Lynch's biggest problem is he is not shifty enough to make something happen when its not there. Once he gets a head of steam though, he is tough to bring down, and has enough speed to take it the distance. With the running lanes Houston creates Lynch would wreak havoc running past LB's and over DB's.

That is not what I meant to say, but there might be some truth there. I have been watching a lot of Foster lately. Mostly to convince myself that I made the right move, selling him for AJ. In the format my league is in, unless AJ scores more point, over more years, I would have lost out. WR points are no more valuable than RB points, due to the starting requirements.

This is what I see when I watch Foster, or what I think to myself, rather:

"The Texans line stretches to the left, great blocking. Foster follows his line, then cuts back right, through a designed, good sized hole, then runs as far as he can before getting tackled." I am no scout, and never pretend to be, but I don't see anything special, most of the time. There are times when the hole never materializes, and he shows great patience, taking what is there. But other than him being patient, I don't see anything special.

I have heard plenty say that he has great vision. To me, vision is seeing yards that the average runningback doesn't see/get. I don't know that Foster does that. Sure, he is patient and does a good job recognizing when the hole will be there and when it will not. But I don't know that it takes a special talent to do that. In fact, I feel strongly that it doesn't. I think that is the reason so many backs look good in this scheme.

Now when I watch an Adrian Peterson, I see so much about him that makes him special. He regularly gets yards that very few RBs in the history of the NFL could get. His offensive line is not great, and he faces 8 in the box fairly often. Unlike Foster, most of Adrian's gains are his own doing. I could go on and on about what makes Peterson great, but I think it is blatant, obvious, and easy to see, in a player that great.

Another player that I really like, that I think is more talented than Foster, and would do even better in Houston's scheme is Felix Jones. His ability to plant and go is elite. His ability to hit top speed is elite. His ability to make people miss, without using much energy hiself, is elite. He reminds me of Priest Holmes, in that he rarely goes East/West. When making someone miss, he moves at a foward angle, like a rook in chess (Not my analogy). His decision making is great, and I will argue that with anyone. He decides what he wants to do, where the yards are, and moves towards it. Very little dancing.

I am torn by Foster, because I want to think that a player doing amazing things, would need to have the ability as a player to do amazing things, for the most part. But when I watch him, I don't see anything elite.

 

[Go deep]

In what ways is Foster better than Lynch?I don't think it is an easy question to asnwer. I think Lynch is a tougher, more athletic runner. I think he is faster, more explosive, and is better at making people miss or breaking tackles. Foster is much more patient. I think Foster fits the Houston scheme better, so I don't know that Lynch could do what Foster is doing in Houston. But I do think that Foster would have struggled just as much, if not more in Buffalo.

Geez, it would be nice if you gave more than 5 minutes- some people have other things to do!I agree that it isn't an easy question to answer, primarily because "talent" is subjective. I've watched way too much of Lynch's career, and he's just not very good. The "bestmode" crap gave him this reputation, but his play doesn't warrant it. He does run hard, but so does MBIII, and it's about the only thing he is very good at. Again, this is my opinion because it's impossible to prove, but Foster has much better vision and patience, has a better understanding of the game, he's better at making people miss, better pass catcher, just a better overall RB. I'm not saying Foster is a super talented RB himself, but Lynch is just "blah".

I understand why people would think Foster is better at making people miss, vision, patience, thats what happens when you play in a good offesne with good run blocking. Either way, that part is tought to judge based on their situations, since they couldnt have been more opposite. What i dont understand is why you think Foster is a better pass catcher, that just tells me you have barely watched Lynch play, if at all. What are you basing that on?

 

[thriftyrocker]

And how about Deion Branch. He is 31 but still, if he is targeted as much as he was this week, in a very solid position, he could be productive for two years more.

He only had 2 catches before the 4th quarter. He is a major injury risk. He's never had more than 5 TDs in a season.If he's free off waivers and it's a PPR league by all means grab him and put him in your lineup. But otherwise, don't get your hopes up.

Not really sure why it is relevent when a receiver catches the ball. Willing to bet a lot of money that all receivers tend to catch more of their balls in the fourth quarter. ...

He is starting in an offense that likes to pass and with a QB who trusts him. That's real value. As a WR3 you could do a lot worse this year and next.

It matters a lot when you're projecting from one game. Re: "if he is targeted as much as he was this week." How many games will NE be down 10 in the 4th quarter? It's not a good game to project from, but it's enough evidence he's worth picking up for free or cheap.I am not hating on the pick and agree you could do worse with a short term PPR WR3. Whether he's a great value pick depends on how much you pay. I'd rather gamble on BMW, TO, Roy Williams, Braylon if the price is the same.

 

[Go deep]

I only pointed out his YPC is response to him saying Lynch would ony average 3.5. Obviously i didnt say stats do not matter, but there is alot more to judging talent than looking at stats.

Of course there is, that's why I made the comment about your vision - Lynch just isn't very good, even if you disregard the stats. He's not terrible, but overrated by most IMO.

Actually, i think your opinon is the one shared by most. It became pretty popular to call him just an average back starting last season. The only reason people say he is overrated now is because before last season, most of those same people called him a top 5-10 RB.

 

[Concept Coop]

Torain looked pretty damn good to me. Can he hold on to the starting spot in the future?

Torain is an interesting case. I think he holds the job for a bit, but his liabilities severely limit his upside. Specifically, the guy is God-awfull slow and has limited agility. What he does have is a brutally physical running style that can be very effective in specific situations.His running style is such that I can't see how he could survive as a lead back for more then a season or two. During those couple seasons, he'll be a feast or famine player, running over some defenses while being generally ineffective against other, more physical D's.Great short term value, but if someone is willing to part with high end RB2 value, I'd be selling. He has COP/goal line written all over him.

Agree 100%. He is my #1 sell high prospect. He looks awful running the ball. He is slow, lacks vision, and quite frankly, looks dumb. He is not the long term answer in Washington. If you are competing, you might want to hold on to him, if you need him as a RB2. If you are re-building, or have enough RB talent to start without Torrain, I would be moving him right now.

What if Torain is unfortunately your most productive back on a mid-tier team? I'm rebuilding and I've been offered Donald Brown, not a RB2 but at worst the trade is a wash if Brown doesn't pan out and Torain inevitably loses value heading into '11.

I guess it would depend on your team, and what you mean by mid-tier. I hate being mid-tier in FF. You miss out on elite talent in the draft, more often than not, and you are never one lucky week away from winning everything.I would decide if you are a hot streak away from being the best team in the league for 2-3 weeks. If the answer is no, move him. If the answer is yes, only move him for equal return, this season, or at least more of an initial impact than D. Brown will offer.As far as Donald Brown, he is the more talented player. I would much rather have Brown, if we are in a vacuum, or startup draft. Unless you think you can win it all this year, I would make that trade and not think twice about it.

 

[humpback]

I only pointed out his YPC is response to him saying Lynch would ony average 3.5. Obviously i didnt say stats do not matter, but there is alot more to judging talent than looking at stats.

Of course there is, that's why I made the comment about your vision - Lynch just isn't very good, even if you disregard the stats. He's not terrible, but overrated by most IMO.

Actually, i think your opinon is the one shared by most. It became pretty popular to call him just an average back starting last season. The only reason people say he is overrated now is because before last season, most of those same people called him a top 5-10 RB.

I don't disagree with this, but I wasn't one of those people- I've thought he was overrated since his rookie season, he's just a little less overrated now because most people have lowered their opinions on him. I've watched him run in the same situations as a completely unheralded Fred Jackson, and have come away unimpressed. Similar to Slaton- never have been a fan, questioned my opinion on him slightly after his rookie season but still never bought it. I know a lot of people did, but not everyone.

 

[Instinctive]

Anyone want to talk about Deangelo Williams' value in a dynasty/keeper format? I play in a PPR keeper where we keep 6 at no cost. I posted this in the dynasty trades thread, but this thread is obviously much more populated. I traded Ladanian and Bowe for deangelo and cotchery. My WRs ahead of Bowe are Fitz, Calvin and Crabtree. My RBs are Best, Forte, Torain and now Deangelo.What do you guys think of the trade? Did i give up too much value for Deangelo? Do people still consider him an elite talent?

I think this isn't the Assistant Coach and you know better than to post this junk hereeAngelo is an interesting case however, along with SJax and Gore, regarding the lockout. I think we discussed it all 5-8 pages ago, if you want to search.

 

[humpback]

I understand why people would think Foster is better at making people miss, vision, patience, thats what happens when you play in a good offesne with good run blocking. Either way, that part is tought to judge based on their situations, since they couldnt have been more opposite. What i dont understand is why you think Foster is a better pass catcher, that just tells me you have barely watched Lynch play, if at all. What are you basing that on?

I'm basing it on watching them play, and I've watched plenty. Again, I'm not saying Lynch is bad at it, just that I think Foster is a little better. He just seems smoother, like it comes more naturally to him.I understand Foster's situation is better, and obviously that's going to account for some of the production difference, but Buffalo wasn't nearly as bad as people think. During Lynch's first two seasons, they were 7-9 and over .500 late in both seasons. They weren't complete doormats where he didn't stand a chance, they were actually decent and had a decent run blocking O-line as well. FJax was playing for the same team at the same time and looked better to me, and I don't hear anyone arguing that FJax is an outstanding RB.

 

[Go deep]

I understand why people would think Foster is better at making people miss, vision, patience, thats what happens when you play in a good offesne with good run blocking. Either way, that part is tought to judge based on their situations, since they couldnt have been more opposite. What i dont understand is why you think Foster is a better pass catcher, that just tells me you have barely watched Lynch play, if at all. What are you basing that on?

I'm basing it on watching them play, and I've watched plenty. Again, I'm not saying Lynch is bad at it, just that I think Foster is a little better. He just seems smoother, like it comes more naturally to him.I understand Foster's situation is better, and obviously that's going to account for some of the production difference, but Buffalo wasn't nearly as bad as people think. During Lynch's first two seasons, they were 7-9 and over .500 late in both seasons. They weren't complete doormats where he didn't stand a chance, they were actually decent and had a decent run blocking O-line as well. FJax was playing for the same team at the same time and looked better to me, and I don't hear anyone arguing that FJax is an outstanding RB.

Derrick Ward looks better than Foster, but i dont see anyone arguing he is a good RB. If Foster went down for the year, does anyone doubt that Ward would be a top 10 back?

 

[Val Rannous]

Im not disagreeing with you, but i find it funny when people say _________ fits _________ system. Thats just usually means if ________ didnt play for _________ he would not be very good. You never hear people say Barry Sanders fit the Detroit system or Adrian Peterson fits the Vikings system.

I actually think Lynch would do well in Houston(who wouldnt). Lynch's biggest problem is he is not shifty enough to make something happen when its not there. Once he gets a head of steam though, he is tough to bring down, and has enough speed to take it the distance. With the running lanes Houston creates Lynch would wreak havoc running past LB's and over DB's.

That is not what I meant to say, but there might be some truth there. I have been watching a lot of Foster lately. Mostly to convince myself that I made the right move, selling him for AJ. In the format my league is in, unless AJ scores more point, over more years, I would have lost out. WR points are no more valuable than RB points, due to the starting requirements.

This is what I see when I watch Foster, or what I think to myself, rather:

"The Texans line stretches to the left, great blocking. Foster follows his line, then cuts back right, through a designed, good sized hole, then runs as far as he can before getting tackled." I am no scout, and never pretend to be, but I don't see anything special, most of the time. There are times when the hole never materializes, and he shows great patience, taking what is there. But other than him being patient, I don't see anything special.

I have heard plenty say that he has great vision. To me, vision is seeing yards that the average runningback doesn't see/get. I don't know that Foster does that. Sure, he is patient and does a good job recognizing when the hole will be there and when it will not. But I don't know that it takes a special talent to do that. In fact, I feel strongly that it doesn't. I think that is the reason so many backs look good in this scheme.

Now when I watch an Adrian Peterson, I see so much about him that makes him special. He regularly gets yards that very few RBs in the history of the NFL could get. His offensive line is not great, and he faces 8 in the box fairly often. Unlike Foster, most of Adrian's gains are his own doing. I could go on and on about what makes Peterson great, but I think it is blatant, obvious, and easy to see, in a player that great.

Another player that I really like, that I think is more talented than Foster, and would do even better in Houston's scheme is Felix Jones. His ability to plant and go is elite. His ability to hit top speed is elite. His ability to make people miss, without using much energy hiself, is elite. He reminds me of Priest Holmes, in that he rarely goes East/West. When making someone miss, he moves at a foward angle, like a rook in chess (Not my analogy). His decision making is great, and I will argue that with anyone. He decides what he wants to do, where the yards are, and moves towards it. Very little dancing.

I am torn by Foster, because I want to think that a player doing amazing things, would need to have the ability as a player to do amazing things, for the most part. But when I watch him, I don't see anything elite.

OK, this one makes me want to comment. Please note that while I'm from Houston, I'm not a Texans fan (Go Colts!) First off, nobody around here that I've seen is comparing Foster to Peterson. That's just nuts, plain and simple. Peterson is a special, once in a great while talent. Of course you see special things when you watch him, he's a rare talent. By the same token, if you don't see similar things when you watch Foster, that's not shocking, I can say that about virtually every other running back in the NFL currently (with the possible exception of CJ).

Having watched quite a bit of Foster and the Texans myself, there's something there, and it's not just system or O-line. Do those things help his stats? Absolutely. Are they the entire story? No way. What I don't think you're giving Foster credit for is his ability to make the first guy miss. I've seen far too many backs who have better speed, strength, and other football skills lack that ability, and it could make Foster a good player for some time to come. The way you break good runs off (unless you're the Earl Campbell type) is follow your blocks, find the hole, get through the hole, then make the first guy to you miss. This is precisely what Foster does. That doesn't make him a system back, or a 1 trick pony, or (as I've seen some say) lucky because of the offense he's in.

I've liked what I've seen from him so far. Dude has potential. Is he the second coming? Hell no. Is he better than Go Deep's constant ranking of mid 20's type for dynasty? In my opinion, yes. It IS possible to have a player outplay his draft position or salary.

Val

 

[EBF]

How much of Alexander's production is the result of Sam Bradford's quality and St. Louis's desperation? I'd say a lot. You look at the situation and quickly realize that the reason a guy like Alexander has been able to crack the lineup is because the team simply has no other options.

Wasn't Alexander injured, which caused him not to get drafted and then caused him to miss a lot of camp? Maybe it wasn't his lack of talent that prevented him from cracking the lineup but the fact he was recovering from injury.

So teams don't draft injured players? What about O'Brien Schofield, Willis McGahee, Brandon Tate, Travis Beckum, and Jack Ikegwuonu?I could see a team dropping Alexander down their board because of an injury, but if you're a top 100 type prospect and you get hurt, eventually someone is still going to use a pick on you because there comes a point in the draft where the upside justifies the cost. No one made that leap of faith with Alexander. Again, I'm not saying that he doesn't have any potential, I'm just saying that it seems like people are overreacting to one good game. There's no way I would rank him ahead of someone like Golden Tate or Arrelious Benn, and I don't even have much faith in those guys. He's still a major longshot to achieve sustained success.

 

[Kitrick Taylor]

From Evan Silva's (rotoworld) Chat:

I'm pretty concerned about Jones-Drew, and was entering the season after he averaged 3.71 yards per carry in the final seven games of 2009 -- his first year as a true every-down back. In the first nine, MJD averaged 5.09 yards per carry. There was a midseason stretch in 2009 that saw him rack up carry totals of 33, 29, 24, and 25, while often missing practice with a "knee" injury. This year, he's had possibly the most favorable running game schedule in football yet is just the 17th overall fantasy RB.

On his last 262 carries, Maurice Jones-Drew is averaging 3.79 YPC. This year, only 2 of his 6 opponents rank better than 22nd against the run. I watched quite a bit of Jones-Drew during last year's stretch run and this season, and he looked lethargic. The Jaguars' inability to consistently move the ball on offense certainly doesn't help, but neither does Jones-Drew's inability to break into the open field. He looks slower, and it shows up in the numbers.

Is there something to be concerned about here? MJD should be in the absolute prime of his career, yet he's not putting up numbers this year. I realize the Jags are not an especially good team, but its not like MJD is going to another team anytime soon. Even if Garrard and Del Rio are shown the door, the next couple of years could be about the Jaguars breaking in a rookie QB.

 

[BespokeJort]

How much of Alexander's production is the result of Sam Bradford's quality and St. Louis's desperation? I'd say a lot. You look at the situation and quickly realize that the reason a guy like Alexander has been able to crack the lineup is because the team simply has no other options.

Wasn't Alexander injured, which caused him not to get drafted and then caused him to miss a lot of camp? Maybe it wasn't his lack of talent that prevented him from cracking the lineup but the fact he was recovering from injury.

So teams don't draft injured players? What about O'Brien Schofield, Willis McGahee, Brandon Tate, Travis Beckum, and Jack Ikegwuonu?I could see a team dropping Alexander down their board because of an injury, but if you're a top 100 type prospect and you get hurt, eventually someone is still going to use a pick on you because there comes a point in the draft where the upside justifies the cost. No one made that leap of faith with Alexander. Again, I'm not saying that he doesn't have any potential, I'm just saying that it seems like people are overreacting to one good game. There's no way I would rank him ahead of someone like Golden Tate or Arrelious Benn, and I don't even have much faith in those guys. He's still a major longshot to achieve sustained success.

None of those guys (as far as I know) had four surgeries to one knee. From what I'm hearing (and it could be BS but IIRC I was hearing it in august when the first thread on him was made and i picked him up for a minimum bid to stash on taxi squad in an auction startup, and thus was doing some research on the guy) some scouts were giving him late first-early third grades. And I don't doubt it. If a guy like Jacoby Jones can get drafted in the 3rd, a guy with Alexander's measurables whose weaknesses were mainly in theoretically 'teachable' areas such as route-running certainly could if the injuries weren't a factor.I wouldn't rank him in front of Tate/Benn either (someone in the Danario thread was putting him in "a tier with Demaryius Thomas just below Dez Bryant," which is laughable) but in the two leagues I have the guy I wouldn't trade him for Decker/Gilyard/Lafell/Roberts/any of the other guys who are also longshots but have only WR2 upside in a million years. Having no faith he could come back doesn't mean having no faith in his talent if he were at 100% (although I was very surprised nobody dropped a 7th round flier on the guy, and I almost dropped him when it took so long for anyone to at least stash him on an NFL practice squad). It's premature for people to be crowning him the next Randy Moss/Calvin/VJax (although I think he could play the VJax role well alongside a gates-type TE (Fendi? ) or Boldin-type possession WR) but if his knee holds up (which is anyone's guess), the kid is at least a Malcolm Floyd type out of the box

 

[humpback]

I understand why people would think Foster is better at making people miss, vision, patience, thats what happens when you play in a good offesne with good run blocking. Either way, that part is tought to judge based on their situations, since they couldnt have been more opposite. What i dont understand is why you think Foster is a better pass catcher, that just tells me you have barely watched Lynch play, if at all. What are you basing that on?

I'm basing it on watching them play, and I've watched plenty. Again, I'm not saying Lynch is bad at it, just that I think Foster is a little better. He just seems smoother, like it comes more naturally to him.I understand Foster's situation is better, and obviously that's going to account for some of the production difference, but Buffalo wasn't nearly as bad as people think. During Lynch's first two seasons, they were 7-9 and over .500 late in both seasons. They weren't complete doormats where he didn't stand a chance, they were actually decent and had a decent run blocking O-line as well. FJax was playing for the same team at the same time and looked better to me, and I don't hear anyone arguing that FJax is an outstanding RB.

Derrick Ward looks better than Foster, but i dont see anyone arguing he is a good RB. If Foster went down for the year, does anyone doubt that Ward would be a top 10 back?

FJax and Lynch played together for 3+ seasons. Ward has 19 touches with Houston. Not remotely comparable.Not only do I doubt that Ward would be a top 10 back, I'd give odds that he wasn't.

 

[EBF]

I don't know about that. Floyd is top 5 in the league in receiving yards. It's not really reasonable to expect Alexander to match that kind of performance.

I don't agree that route running is always "teachable" either. I've said before that I think route running ability is largely a consequence of natural physical talent. Some guys are just naturally smoother and more explosive with a superior ability to make difficult cuts and change direction without losing momentum. The reason that guys like Percy Harvin and Demaryius Thomas have been able to come in and excel immediately is because they're such gifted athletes that they can run many routes effectively even if they didn't have much experience with those patterns in college.

I watched Alexander pretty closely at the Senior Bowl and felt he was one of the worst WRs in attendance. Yes, he is tall and reasonably fast in a straight line, but he didn't play with much strength or aggression and really struggled getting separation out of breaks because he doesn't change directions well. It will be interesting to see whether or not any of these shortcomings carry over into the next few weeks. Certainly he will get more opportunities and if he continues to excel, teams will scheme against him. Then we'll see what he's really made of.

As for the knee, the fact that it was scary enough to prevent any NFL team from using even so much as a 7th round pick on an alleged top 100 type prospect should be a bit alarming, no?

 

[thriftyrocker]

Derrick Ward looks better than Foster, but i dont see anyone arguing he is a good RB. If Foster went down for the year, does anyone doubt that Ward would be a top 10 back?

LOL at D. Ward "looks better"

Beyond 2010?

Yes. And you have no credibility whatsoever on the Texans backfield.Do you still have a broken down kick returner as the starter here?

 

[jonramz]

From Evan Silva's (rotoworld) Chat:

I'm pretty concerned about Jones-Drew, and was entering the season after he averaged 3.71 yards per carry in the final seven games of 2009 -- his first year as a true every-down back. In the first nine, MJD averaged 5.09 yards per carry. There was a midseason stretch in 2009 that saw him rack up carry totals of 33, 29, 24, and 25, while often missing practice with a "knee" injury. This year, he's had possibly the most favorable running game schedule in football yet is just the 17th overall fantasy RB.

On his last 262 carries, Maurice Jones-Drew is averaging 3.79 YPC. This year, only 2 of his 6 opponents rank better than 22nd against the run. I watched quite a bit of Jones-Drew during last year's stretch run and this season, and he looked lethargic. The Jaguars' inability to consistently move the ball on offense certainly doesn't help, but neither does Jones-Drew's inability to break into the open field. He looks slower, and it shows up in the numbers.

Is there something to be concerned about here? MJD should be in the absolute prime of his career, yet he's not putting up numbers this year. I realize the Jags are not an especially good team, but its not like MJD is going to another team anytime soon. Even if Garrard and Del Rio are shown the door, the next couple of years could be about the Jaguars breaking in a rookie QB.

I just traded MJD away in my dynasty league... I personally think he's the most overrated back in football right now. Watching him play this year I do not see a top 3 back. Last year was his 1st year being "the man" and he had over 360 touches last year, he does not look the same, and the guys around him suck too. I watched him live against Buffalo this year and guys have just been running wild against that defense, but not MJD. Perhaps something is still bothering him from the preseason... But watch guys like AP or CJ play and then MJD... he is not in their class at all

 

[Concept Coop]

OK, this one makes me want to comment. Please note that while I'm from Houston, I'm not a Texans fan (Go Colts!) First off, nobody around here that I've seen is comparing Foster to Peterson. That's just nuts, plain and simple. Peterson is a special, once in a great while talent. Of course you see special things when you watch him, he's a rare talent. By the same token, if you don't see similar things when you watch Foster, that's not shocking, I can say that about virtually every other running back in the NFL currently (with the possible exception of CJ).Having watched quite a bit of Foster and the Texans myself, there's something there, and it's not just system or O-line. Do those things help his stats? Absolutely. Are they the entire story? No way. What I don't think you're giving Foster credit for is his ability to make the first guy miss. I've seen far too many backs who have better speed, strength, and other football skills lack that ability, and it could make Foster a good player for some time to come. The way you break good runs off (unless you're the Earl Campbell type) is follow your blocks, find the hole, get through the hole, then make the first guy to you miss. This is precisely what Foster does. That doesn't make him a system back, or a 1 trick pony, or (as I've seen some say) lucky because of the offense he's in.I've liked what I've seen from him so far. Dude has potential. Is he the second coming? Hell no. Is he better than Go Deep's constant ranking of mid 20's type for dynasty? In my opinion, yes. It IS possible to have a player outplay his draft position or salary. Val

I never suggested that anyone compared Foster to Peterson. Never. First, Foster does not make the first guy miss on a regular basis. Very few do. He can break tackles but a lot of backs in the NFL can do that. Lastly, all I am saying is that I don't see anything elite in Foster. If you disagree, please tell me what he does at an elite level. If you don't think he is elite in any aspect, then we are pretty much on the same page.

 

[Go deep]

Im not disagreeing with you, but i find it funny when people say _________ fits _________ system. Thats just usually means if ________ didnt play for _________ he would not be very good. You never hear people say Barry Sanders fit the Detroit system or Adrian Peterson fits the Vikings system.

I actually think Lynch would do well in Houston(who wouldnt). Lynch's biggest problem is he is not shifty enough to make something happen when its not there. Once he gets a head of steam though, he is tough to bring down, and has enough speed to take it the distance. With the running lanes Houston creates Lynch would wreak havoc running past LB's and over DB's.

That is not what I meant to say, but there might be some truth there. I have been watching a lot of Foster lately. Mostly to convince myself that I made the right move, selling him for AJ. In the format my league is in, unless AJ scores more point, over more years, I would have lost out. WR points are no more valuable than RB points, due to the starting requirements.

This is what I see when I watch Foster, or what I think to myself, rather:

"The Texans line stretches to the left, great blocking. Foster follows his line, then cuts back right, through a designed, good sized hole, then runs as far as he can before getting tackled." I am no scout, and never pretend to be, but I don't see anything special, most of the time. There are times when the hole never materializes, and he shows great patience, taking what is there. But other than him being patient, I don't see anything special.

I have heard plenty say that he has great vision. To me, vision is seeing yards that the average runningback doesn't see/get. I don't know that Foster does that. Sure, he is patient and does a good job recognizing when the hole will be there and when it will not. But I don't know that it takes a special talent to do that. In fact, I feel strongly that it doesn't. I think that is the reason so many backs look good in this scheme.

Now when I watch an Adrian Peterson, I see so much about him that makes him special. He regularly gets yards that very few RBs in the history of the NFL could get. His offensive line is not great, and he faces 8 in the box fairly often. Unlike Foster, most of Adrian's gains are his own doing. I could go on and on about what makes Peterson great, but I think it is blatant, obvious, and easy to see, in a player that great.

Another player that I really like, that I think is more talented than Foster, and would do even better in Houston's scheme is Felix Jones. His ability to plant and go is elite. His ability to hit top speed is elite. His ability to make people miss, without using much energy hiself, is elite. He reminds me of Priest Holmes, in that he rarely goes East/West. When making someone miss, he moves at a foward angle, like a rook in chess (Not my analogy). His decision making is great, and I will argue that with anyone. He decides what he wants to do, where the yards are, and moves towards it. Very little dancing.

I am torn by Foster, because I want to think that a player doing amazing things, would need to have the ability as a player to do amazing things, for the most part. But when I watch him, I don't see anything elite.

OK, this one makes me want to comment. Please note that while I'm from Houston, I'm not a Texans fan (Go Colts!) First off, nobody around here that I've seen is comparing Foster to Peterson. That's just nuts, plain and simple. Peterson is a special, once in a great while talent. Of course you see special things when you watch him, he's a rare talent. By the same token, if you don't see similar things when you watch Foster, that's not shocking, I can say that about virtually every other running back in the NFL currently (with the possible exception of CJ).

Having watched quite a bit of Foster and the Texans myself, there's something there, and it's not just system or O-line. Do those things help his stats? Absolutely. Are they the entire story? No way. What I don't think you're giving Foster credit for is his ability to make the first guy miss. I've seen far too many backs who have better speed, strength, and other football skills lack that ability, and it could make Foster a good player for some time to come. The way you break good runs off (unless you're the Earl Campbell type) is follow your blocks, find the hole, get through the hole, then make the first guy to you miss. This is precisely what Foster does. That doesn't make him a system back, or a 1 trick pony, or (as I've seen some say) lucky because of the offense he's in.

I've liked what I've seen from him so far. Dude has potential. Is he the second coming? Hell no. Is he better than Go Deep's constant ranking of mid 20's type for dynasty? In my opinion, yes. It IS possible to have a player outplay his draft position or salary.

Val

I have Foster currently rankedas the #21 Rb, thats early 20's, not mid 20's. I had him in the 40's before Tate got hurt, so his ranking has not been constant. I have kept him in the low 20's over the last few weeks, i didnt move him up after he beat up on Oakland and i didnt move him down when he averged 1yard acarry against the Giants. At this point i am comfortable where i have him ranked, and wont be moving him in either direction barring a long string of good or bad games or an injury.

I dont hate the guy, and there are not too many guy i would take over him in redrafts, but when it comes to dynasty rankings, talent is the most important factor. I am willing to listen to his supporters to see if i am missing something, but the more i hear from them, the more confident i become in my ranking. People are saying he is talented because of his vision and patience, well thats what you say about RB's who are in a great situations. Any average RB looks like they have great patience and vision when they are running through gaping holes.

I honestly dont see any difference in Foster and Ward. Does anyone really think Ward wouldnt be put up similar numbers if Foster were to suffer a season ending injury?

 

[humpback]

I honestly dont see any difference in Foster and Ward. Does anyone really think Ward wouldnt be put up similar numbers if Foster were to suffer a season ending injury?

I think you might be the only one who does think this (if you actually do).

 

[Go deep]

I understand why people would think Foster is better at making people miss, vision, patience, thats what happens when you play in a good offesne with good run blocking. Either way, that part is tought to judge based on their situations, since they couldnt have been more opposite. What i dont understand is why you think Foster is a better pass catcher, that just tells me you have barely watched Lynch play, if at all. What are you basing that on?

I'm basing it on watching them play, and I've watched plenty. Again, I'm not saying Lynch is bad at it, just that I think Foster is a little better. He just seems smoother, like it comes more naturally to him.I understand Foster's situation is better, and obviously that's going to account for some of the production difference, but Buffalo wasn't nearly as bad as people think. During Lynch's first two seasons, they were 7-9 and over .500 late in both seasons. They weren't complete doormats where he didn't stand a chance, they were actually decent and had a decent run blocking O-line as well. FJax was playing for the same team at the same time and looked better to me, and I don't hear anyone arguing that FJax is an outstanding RB.

Derrick Ward looks better than Foster, but i dont see anyone arguing he is a good RB. If Foster went down for the year, does anyone doubt that Ward would be a top 10 back?

FJax and Lynch played together for 3+ seasons. Ward has 19 touches with Houston. Not remotely comparable.Not only do I doubt that Ward would be a top 10 back, I'd give odds that he wasn't.

Your right, Lynch and Jackson did play 3 season together, and if someone would have told you Jackson was the better player during either of the first two season you would have said the same thing you are saying about Ward and Foster. Jackson averaged more ypc with far less carries over the first two years, just like Ward is averaging more YPC with fewer carries than Foster.Ill tell you what, if ward gets the starting spot at some point during the season i will take even odds that he puts up top 10 RB ff points from that point on.

 

[SSOG]

Hey guys, sorry for the delay on the rankings update this week, and I hope it wasn't any inconvenience, but the update is now live. Change log available here: http://www.dynastyrankings.net/forums/view...p?f=3&t=151

 

[humpback]

Your right, Lynch and Jackson did play 3 season together, and if someone would have told you Jackson was the better player during either of the first two season you would have said the same thing you are saying about Ward and Foster. Jackson averaged more ypc on with far less carries over the first two years, just like Ward is averaging more YPC with fewer carries than Foster.Ill tell you what, if ward gets the starting spot at some point during the season i will take even odds that he puts up top 10 RB ff points from that point on.

I know you like to argue just for the sake of it, but are you really comparing the two situations? FJax had over 500 touches in those 3 years. Ward has 19. Do you honestly think they're the same?

 

[Go deep]

Your right, Lynch and Jackson did play 3 season together, and if someone would have told you Jackson was the better player during either of the first two season you would have said the same thing you are saying about Ward and Foster. Jackson averaged more ypc on with far less carries over the first two years, just like Ward is averaging more YPC with fewer carries than Foster.Ill tell you what, if ward gets the starting spot at some point during the season i will take even odds that he puts up top 10 RB ff points from that point on.

I know you like to argue just for the sake of it, but are you really comparing the two situations? FJax had over 500 touches in those 3 years. Ward has 19. Do you honestly think they're the same?

I can see youre getting emotional, so i am finshed here. I hope Foster works out for you.

 

[moderated]

Hester freefallin in SSOG's rankings update. Good to see him adjust and realize hester isn't relevant for FF purposes.

 

[Val Rannous]

OK, this one makes me want to comment. Please note that while I'm from Houston, I'm not a Texans fan (Go Colts!) First off, nobody around here that I've seen is comparing Foster to Peterson. That's just nuts, plain and simple. Peterson is a special, once in a great while talent. Of course you see special things when you watch him, he's a rare talent. By the same token, if you don't see similar things when you watch Foster, that's not shocking, I can say that about virtually every other running back in the NFL currently (with the possible exception of CJ).Having watched quite a bit of Foster and the Texans myself, there's something there, and it's not just system or O-line. Do those things help his stats? Absolutely. Are they the entire story? No way. What I don't think you're giving Foster credit for is his ability to make the first guy miss. I've seen far too many backs who have better speed, strength, and other football skills lack that ability, and it could make Foster a good player for some time to come. The way you break good runs off (unless you're the Earl Campbell type) is follow your blocks, find the hole, get through the hole, then make the first guy to you miss. This is precisely what Foster does. That doesn't make him a system back, or a 1 trick pony, or (as I've seen some say) lucky because of the offense he's in.I've liked what I've seen from him so far. Dude has potential. Is he the second coming? Hell no. Is he better than Go Deep's constant ranking of mid 20's type for dynasty? In my opinion, yes. It IS possible to have a player outplay his draft position or salary. Val

I never suggested that anyone compared Foster to Peterson. Never. First, Foster does not make the first guy miss on a regular basis. Very few do. He can break tackles but a lot of backs in the NFL can do that. Lastly, all I am saying is that I don't see anything elite in Foster. If you disagree, please tell me what he does at an elite level. If you don't think he is elite in any aspect, then we are pretty much on the same page.

You didn't compare Foster to Peterson, but you did use Peterson as an example of eliteness.I think I need a term defination here - What is an Elite RB in your mind? we talking historic, HoF good? Top 10 current back good? Or are we talking about skill set or elite ability in a phase of the game? If I understand your argument, Peterson is, Felix Jones will be as soon as he gets the chance, Foster can't be; so I'm trying to get your frame of reference.Val

 

[Go deep]

Hey guys, sorry for the delay on the rankings update this week, and I hope it wasn't any inconvenience, but the update is now live. Change log available here: http://www.dynastyrankings.net/forums/view...p?f=3&t=151

I like the Hester comment. For the record, i am not a Hester hater, i just thought you had him too high. I do want to ask you one thing though. You say the only reason you knocked him down a few points was because of his reduced role in the offense. Dont you think he is getting a reduced role for a reason? Wether you believe he is ahead of or behind the curve, doesnt it seem like a bad thing that a 27 year old WR is getting his role reduced, and on a team that doesnt have very good WR's?

As for Britt, sure, his numbers would only prorate to 560 yards, but he is only 22 and still maturing as a WR. I wonder why you are willing to give Hester the benefit of the doubt, but not Britt, despite the fact that Hester prorated numbers would not even be half of Britts. Especially when you consider Hester started the season and is now getting a reduced role, and Britt didnt start the season and now starting to see an expanded role.

 

[Concept Coop]

OK, this one makes me want to comment. Please note that while I'm from Houston, I'm not a Texans fan (Go Colts!) First off, nobody around here that I've seen is comparing Foster to Peterson. That's just nuts, plain and simple. Peterson is a special, once in a great while talent. Of course you see special things when you watch him, he's a rare talent. By the same token, if you don't see similar things when you watch Foster, that's not shocking, I can say that about virtually every other running back in the NFL currently (with the possible exception of CJ).Having watched quite a bit of Foster and the Texans myself, there's something there, and it's not just system or O-line. Do those things help his stats? Absolutely. Are they the entire story? No way. What I don't think you're giving Foster credit for is his ability to make the first guy miss. I've seen far too many backs who have better speed, strength, and other football skills lack that ability, and it could make Foster a good player for some time to come. The way you break good runs off (unless you're the Earl Campbell type) is follow your blocks, find the hole, get through the hole, then make the first guy to you miss. This is precisely what Foster does. That doesn't make him a system back, or a 1 trick pony, or (as I've seen some say) lucky because of the offense he's in.I've liked what I've seen from him so far. Dude has potential. Is he the second coming? Hell no. Is he better than Go Deep's constant ranking of mid 20's type for dynasty? In my opinion, yes. It IS possible to have a player outplay his draft position or salary. Val

I never suggested that anyone compared Foster to Peterson. Never. First, Foster does not make the first guy miss on a regular basis. Very few do. He can break tackles but a lot of backs in the NFL can do that. Lastly, all I am saying is that I don't see anything elite in Foster. If you disagree, please tell me what he does at an elite level. If you don't think he is elite in any aspect, then we are pretty much on the same page.

You didn't compare Foster to Peterson, but you did use Peterson as an example of eliteness.I think I need a term defination here - What is an Elite RB in your mind? we talking historic, HoF good? Top 10 current back good? Or are we talking about skill set or elite ability in a phase of the game? If I understand your argument, Peterson is, Felix Jones will be as soon as he gets the chance, Foster can't be; so I'm trying to get your frame of reference.Val

I don't know how to tangibly quantify "elite". Good question. Without much though, I would say top 5 in the NFL at any one aspect of your game. I think Felix's ability to plant and go is elite, I think Jamaal Charles' speed is elite, I think Ray Rice's balance is elite, I think Chris Johnson's quickness is elite, I think Matt Forte's pass blocking is elite, I think Steven Jackson does just about everything at an elite level. I can give more examples, but I think you get the idea. I don't think doing any one thing at an elite level makes you elite. But I don't think you can be elite without doing at least one thing at an elite level.EDIT: I didn't really answer your question. I would say top 5 right now = "elite".

 

[renesauz]

Torain looked pretty damn good to me. Can he hold on to the starting spot in the future?

Torain is an interesting case. I think he holds the job for a bit, but his liabilities severely limit his upside. Specifically, the guy is God-awfull slow and has limited agility. What he does have is a brutally physical running style that can be very effective in specific situations.His running style is such that I can't see how he could survive as a lead back for more then a season or two. During those couple seasons, he'll be a feast or famine player, running over some defenses while being generally ineffective against other, more physical D's.Great short term value, but if someone is willing to part with high end RB2 value, I'd be selling. He has COP/goal line written all over him.

Agree 100%. He is my #1 sell high prospect. He looks awful running the ball. He is slow, lacks vision, and quite frankly, looks dumb. He is not the long term answer in Washington. If you are competing, you might want to hold on to him, if you need him as a RB2. If you are re-building, or have enough RB talent to start without Torrain, I would be moving him right now.

What if Torain is unfortunately your most productive back on a mid-tier team? I'm rebuilding and I've been offered Donald Brown, not a RB2 but at worst the trade is a wash if Brown doesn't pan out and Torain inevitably loses value heading into '11.

I guess it would depend on your team, and what you mean by mid-tier. I hate being mid-tier in FF. You miss out on elite talent in the draft, more often than not, and you are never one lucky week away from winning everything.I would decide if you are a hot streak away from being the best team in the league for 2-3 weeks. If the answer is no, move him. If the answer is yes, only move him for equal return, this season, or at least more of an initial impact than D. Brown will offer.As far as Donald Brown, he is the more talented player. I would much rather have Brown, if we are in a vacuum, or startup draft. Unless you think you can win it all this year, I would make that trade and not think twice about it.

I agree.

 

[plyka]

Anyone want to talk about Deangelo Williams' value in a dynasty/keeper format? I play in a PPR keeper where we keep 6 at no cost. I posted this in the dynasty trades thread, but this thread is obviously much more populated. I traded Ladanian and Bowe for deangelo and cotchery. My WRs ahead of Bowe are Fitz, Calvin and Crabtree. My RBs are Best, Forte, Torain and now Deangelo.What do you guys think of the trade? Did i give up too much value for Deangelo? Do people still consider him an elite talent?

I think this isn't the Assistant Coach and you know better than to post this junk hereeAngelo is an interesting case however, along with SJax and Gore, regarding the lockout. I think we discussed it all 5-8 pages ago, if you want to search.

dude, what the H E double hockey sticks is wrong with you? Don't like the question, don't answer it, but don't reply and call it junk. What's the purpose of a dynasty board UNLESS value comes into the equation? Without the concept of value, any rankings are irrelavent. There is little doubt that cost/value/price should be part of the discussion when talking about dynasty. And that's what trades are. If you're talking about player X, then talking about what his value is (what is he WORTH, in this arena the currency is other players or draft picks) vs what it will COST to aqcuire him (again, currency being other players or picks in TRADES) is definitely a relevant part of the discussion.

 

[gheemony]

Jermichael Finley: I think he flashed elite talent both last season and this season. But he has and will miss large parts of two seasons (maybe 3) because of injury. Any reason to downgrade him due to a slightly higher risk of injury? Is he injury-prone?

My experience is that dynasty owners value Finley no differently than before the injury unless they are in contention and need to move him for immediate help. Otherwise, they think he'll pick up where he left off and sky's the limit.

My gut says to downgrade him at least a bit, maybe more.

 

[SSOG]

I'd like you to point out the one person where you agree with every single thing he thinks.

There's always one guy. For instance, I've yet to see SSOG post anything that I disagree with.

With his TD catch tonight, Britt has scored more points in the last 4.1 quarters than Hester has scored all season. Will Britt be "trending upwards" ahead of Hester in your rankings this week? My rankings already took the trend in account, i had Britt ahead of Hester since the begining of the season.

Fun stat of the day: Kenny Britt, the guy who many have claimed is in the middle of a breakout, is currently on pace for 560 receiving yards this season.Perception, meet reality. Reality, meet perception.

Not really bagging on him, just questioning whether he really projects as being a great dynasty player. If you want his near term production you can get Driver, Branch, or any number of guys for next to nothing. Does he deserve to be valued highly like a 27 yo WR with upside, or is he the product of his situation that could fall off the map if the situation changes? If the #1 CB is on a hobbled Fitz, and a tunnel vision QB looks your way instead, that might be more situation than talent. Breaston was a great returner in college. Held all time Big Ten return yards records when he graduated. But he was overshadowed by every other receiver they had when he was there - Edwards, Manningham, Avant.

The theory was never that punt return skills could simply replace receiving skills. Obviously, every receiver needs to meet a minimum threshold in terms of route running, gaining separation, adjusting to the ball in flight, and catching it. You could be the best punt returner in the history of the universe, but if you can't do those things, then you're doomed to fail. My point is that if you *CAN* do those things, then elite punt-return skills provide just one more weapon in your arsenal that make you even more dangerous as a receiver. You point out a list of failures, but there's an equally long list of successes- guys like Smiff, Santana Moss, Rod Smith, Percy Harvin, and yes, Breaston (who has been far more productive than pretty much anyone anticipated).I'm not saying that punt return skills are the be-all, end-all. I'm just saying that WRs have a lot of boxes they can check (hands- check, routes- check, separation- check, etc), and punt return skills are one more box. They're something that are indicative of a positive (elusiveness, tackle-breaking, vision, creativity) that frequently get completely ignored.

Didn't Derrick Mason return too? Or is that total bologna? I think Tate and Breaston are both guys in this mold, whereas Hester was a total conversion project.

Derrick Mason was a first team AP All Pro returner back in 2001, with a mind-boggling 662 punt return yards (for context: in '07, Hester had 4 punt return TDs, but "only" 651 yards).

Torain looked pretty damn good to me. Can he hold on to the starting spot in the future?

I actually had the opposite impression- Indy's defense looked pretty damn bad to me. Torain was a guy I was excited about once upon a time, but at this point, all I see is a Johnny One-Note who is not showing any improvement.

 

[SSOG]

I like the Hester comment. For the record, i am not a Hester hater, i just thought you had him too high. I do want to ask you one thing though. You say the only reason you knocked him down a few points was because of his reduced role in the offense. Dont you think he is getting a reduced role for a reason? Wether you believe he is ahead of or behind the curve, doesnt it seem like a bad thing that a 27 year old WR is getting his role reduced, and on a team that doesnt have very good WR's?As for Britt, sure, his numbers would only prorate to 560 yards, but he is only 22 and still maturing as a WR. I wonder why you are willing to give Hester the benefit of the doubt, but not Britt, despite the fact that Hester prorated numbers would not even be half of Britts. Especially when you consider Hester started the season and is now getting a reduced role, and Britt didnt start the season and now starting to see an expanded role.

I'm giving both players the benefit of the doubt. Both guys are ranked 41st or better despite having nightmarish seasons in terms of production on the field and role in the offense (and yes, despite the TDs, Britt is having a nightmarish season- he's on pace for 560 yards and he got beaten out for a starting job by NATE WASHINGTON).And it is most certainly a bad thing for a 27 year old WR to see his role getting reduced. With that said, I think he's a talented player, I think he can ultimately succeed at the transition, and he's already put up very strong production once. People get hung up on his age as if 27 is old for a WR. It's not.

Jermichael Finley: I think he flashed elite talent both last season and this season. But he has and will miss large parts of two seasons (maybe 3) because of injury. Any reason to downgrade him due to a slightly higher risk of injury? Is he injury-prone?My experience is that dynasty owners value Finley no differently than before the injury unless they are in contention and need to move him for immediate help. Otherwise, they think he'll pick up where he left off and sky's the limit.My gut says to downgrade him at least a bit, maybe more.

I'm not downgrading him. It's sort of a weird time for TEs, as everyone else is either aging, injured, ineffective, or unproven. I've got Finley at #1 overall. Honestly, who would you put above him? Gates I could easily see... but, of course, Gates might be missing time with his own injury, now. Davis? Sure, I could see that, although I think Finley is the better talent. Clark? He's 31. I'd be hard-pressed to trade Finley for Clark straight up this year. It was always a down year for dynasty TEs (just like it was an up year for dynasty QBs), so there aren't a whole lot of guys waiting in the wings to step up to replace Finley in the rankings.He's 23, he's shown a lot of talent on the field, his coaches love him, his QB loves him... he's staying sky-high in my rankings.

 

[HenryMuto]

Torain looked pretty damn good to me. Can he hold on to the starting spot in the future?

Torain is an interesting case. I think he holds the job for a bit, but his liabilities severely limit his upside. Specifically, the guy is God-awfull slow and has limited agility. What he does have is a brutally physical running style that can be very effective in specific situations.His running style is such that I can't see how he could survive as a lead back for more then a season or two. During those couple seasons, he'll be a feast or famine player, running over some defenses while being generally ineffective against other, more physical D's.Great short term value, but if someone is willing to part with high end RB2 value, I'd be selling. He has COP/goal line written all over him.

Agree 100%. He is my #1 sell high prospect. He looks awful running the ball. He is slow, lacks vision, and quite frankly, looks dumb. He is not the long term answer in Washington. If you are competing, you might want to hold on to him, if you need him as a RB2. If you are re-building, or have enough RB talent to start without Torrain, I would be moving him right now.

Someone offered the guy in my league 2 2nd round picks in 2011 for Torain and he turned it down. He just drafted him in the 25th round but he believes he is going to be the next T-Davis

 

[HenryMuto]

I like the Hester comment. For the record, i am not a Hester hater, i just thought you had him too high. I do want to ask you one thing though. You say the only reason you knocked him down a few points was because of his reduced role in the offense. Dont you think he is getting a reduced role for a reason? Wether you believe he is ahead of or behind the curve, doesnt it seem like a bad thing that a 27 year old WR is getting his role reduced, and on a team that doesnt have very good WR's?As for Britt, sure, his numbers would only prorate to 560 yards, but he is only 22 and still maturing as a WR. I wonder why you are willing to give Hester the benefit of the doubt, but not Britt, despite the fact that Hester prorated numbers would not even be half of Britts. Especially when you consider Hester started the season and is now getting a reduced role, and Britt didnt start the season and now starting to see an expanded role.

I'm giving both players the benefit of the doubt. Both guys are ranked 41st or better despite having nightmarish seasons in terms of production on the field and role in the offense (and yes, despite the TDs, Britt is having a nightmarish season- he's on pace for 560 yards and he got beaten out for a starting job by NATE WASHINGTON).And it is most certainly a bad thing for a 27 year old WR to see his role getting reduced. With that said, I think he's a talented player, I think he can ultimately succeed at the transition, and he's already put up very strong production once. People get hung up on his age as if 27 is old for a WR. It's not.

Jermichael Finley: I think he flashed elite talent both last season and this season. But he has and will miss large parts of two seasons (maybe 3) because of injury. Any reason to downgrade him due to a slightly higher risk of injury? Is he injury-prone?My experience is that dynasty owners value Finley no differently than before the injury unless they are in contention and need to move him for immediate help. Otherwise, they think he'll pick up where he left off and sky's the limit.My gut says to downgrade him at least a bit, maybe more.

I'm not downgrading him. It's sort of a weird time for TEs, as everyone else is either aging, injured, ineffective, or unproven. I've got Finley at #1 overall. Honestly, who would you put above him? Gates I could easily see... but, of course, Gates might be missing time with his own injury, now. Davis? Sure, I could see that, although I think Finley is the better talent. Clark? He's 31. I'd be hard-pressed to trade Finley for Clark straight up this year. It was always a down year for dynasty TEs (just like it was an up year for dynasty QBs), so there aren't a whole lot of guys waiting in the wings to step up to replace Finley in the rankings.He's 23, he's shown a lot of talent on the field, his coaches love him, his QB loves him... he's staying sky-high in my rankings.

Losing Finley in 2 of my 3 dynasty leagues was painful but I still won't trade him for any other TE right now. This was kind of a fluke injury no ?He has the talent to be one of the greatest TE's of all time from what I have seen. He is almost uncoverable at times.I will lick my mounds and hope next year he can stay healthy.

 

[humpback]

Your right, Lynch and Jackson did play 3 season together, and if someone would have told you Jackson was the better player during either of the first two season you would have said the same thing you are saying about Ward and Foster. Jackson averaged more ypc on with far less carries over the first two years, just like Ward is averaging more YPC with fewer carries than Foster.Ill tell you what, if ward gets the starting spot at some point during the season i will take even odds that he puts up top 10 RB ff points from that point on.

I know you like to argue just for the sake of it, but are you really comparing the two situations? FJax had over 500 touches in those 3 years. Ward has 19. Do you honestly think they're the same?

I can see youre getting emotional, so i am finshed here. I hope Foster works out for you.

You can see I'm getting emotional? You must be using the same eyes that tell you that Lynch is a top 15 RB or that Ward looks better than Foster and would put up the same numbers. I no longer own Foster in my dynasty because I got great value for him. Don't have a horse in the race anymore, just calling 'em like I see 'em.I'll try again- do you think 19 total touches (12 in 1 game) gives you anywhere close to the same indication as more than 550 over 3+ seasons?

 

[squistion]

Jermichael Finley: I think he flashed elite talent both last season and this season. But he has and will miss large parts of two seasons (maybe 3) because of injury. Any reason to downgrade him due to a slightly higher risk of injury? Is he injury-prone?My experience is that dynasty owners value Finley no differently than before the injury unless they are in contention and need to move him for immediate help. Otherwise, they think he'll pick up where he left off and sky's the limit.My gut says to downgrade him at least a bit, maybe more.

To downgrade him or not turns on one's Dynasty strategy/philosophy and the type of league one plays in. Given his age, talent and what he has demonstrated on the field I can understand the mindset of those who think is value has not diminished one iota. However, I play in cash leagues and a have shorter term outlook than some here (and no I don't want to debate that issue again). From my standpoint, while I would love to acquire and stash him in a league, I would not give up the same amount in trade as I would have before the injury occured. I believe the injury should discount his value, but to what extent I haven't worked out yet. He probably will come back next year and pick up right where he left off, but I won't pay his full pre-injury price to find out - I would rather let someone else take the risk, that perhaps it doesn't play out that way or other unforseen factors intervene.

 

[Concept Coop]

I would trade Finley for Gates in a second. I would have before the injury. Antonio Gates is doing special things - league winning things. I would take 4 years of elite production from gates, over 10 years of good production from Finley. I know Finley looks the part, but he is not the athlete that Gates is; he is not as fluid. Finley could put up Gates like numbers, at one point in his career, but I wouldn't bet on it. It is far from a given, at the very least.

Don't get me wrong, he is the clear #2, but Gates is on another level. I think you can make an argument that Gates is the best player in the NFL. The gap bewteen he and the next best TE is bigger than that of any other position.

 

[Fear & Loathing]

Torain looked pretty damn good to me. Can he hold on to the starting spot in the future?

Torain is an interesting case. I think he holds the job for a bit, but his liabilities severely limit his upside. Specifically, the guy is God-awfull slow and has limited agility. What he does have is a brutally physical running style that can be very effective in specific situations.His running style is such that I can't see how he could survive as a lead back for more then a season or two. During those couple seasons, he'll be a feast or famine player, running over some defenses while being generally ineffective against other, more physical D's.Great short term value, but if someone is willing to part with high end RB2 value, I'd be selling. He has COP/goal line written all over him.

Agree 100%. He is my #1 sell high prospect. He looks awful running the ball. He is slow, lacks vision, and quite frankly, looks dumb. He is not the long term answer in Washington. If you are competing, you might want to hold on to him, if you need him as a RB2. If you are re-building, or have enough RB talent to start without Torrain, I would be moving him right now.

What if Torain is unfortunately your most productive back on a mid-tier team? I'm rebuilding and I've been offered Donald Brown, not a RB2 but at worst the trade is a wash if Brown doesn't pan out and Torain inevitably loses value heading into '11.

I guess it would depend on your team, and what you mean by mid-tier. I hate being mid-tier in FF. You miss out on elite talent in the draft, more often than not, and you are never one lucky week away from winning everything.I would decide if you are a hot streak away from being the best team in the league for 2-3 weeks. If the answer is no, move him. If the answer is yes, only move him for equal return, this season, or at least more of an initial impact than D. Brown will offer.As far as Donald Brown, he is the more talented player. I would much rather have Brown, if we are in a vacuum, or startup draft. Unless you think you can win it all this year, I would make that trade and not think twice about it.

No matter your team, you have to make this trade. If you can get Donald Brown for Ryan Torain, you have to run to the laptop and hit "yes" on the trade offer. They make guys like Torain as a god-send for owners to flip to clueless wannabe contenders in exchange for a legitimately promising prospect.

 

[Fear & Loathing]

Just moved Harvin plus a mid-grade 2011 first rounder for Brandon Lloyd. My team is primed for a title run, his is rebuilding. I had 3 firsts next season and think this move shores up my receiving corps (start 3WR) of Roddy, Desean, VJax, Santonio, and Mike Thomas and Steve Smith south. I like Lloyd for the remainder of this season, and possibly into next before Demaryus gets the pro game figured out.

Wow! This is possibly the most shocking trade I've ever seen in this thread. You'd have to add more than one first-round pick to Brandon Lloyd to get me to consider giving up Harvin. Lloyd is the quintessential flavor of the month. I'll bet you a six pack of Fat Tire ale that Harvin outscores Lloyd the rest of this year, never mind future value.

 

[jdoggydogg]

Anyone want to talk about Deangelo Williams' value in a dynasty/keeper format? I play in a PPR keeper where we keep 6 at no cost. I posted this in the dynasty trades thread, but this thread is obviously much more populated. I traded Ladanian and Bowe for deangelo and cotchery. My WRs ahead of Bowe are Fitz, Calvin and Crabtree. My RBs are Best, Forte, Torain and now Deangelo.What do you guys think of the trade? Did i give up too much value for Deangelo? Do people still consider him an elite talent?

I don't think you gave up to much. You sold high on Tomlinson - an older runner near the end of his career, and you got rid of Bowe - a maddeningly inconsistent player. I own Williams, as well. It's been frustrating watching that bad team this year. But I think that Williams' situation will be much improved in 2011. Whether Williams stays with Carolina or goes to another team, it stands to reason that he'll benefit from better QB play.

 

[jdoggydogg]

Im not disagreeing with you, but i find it funny when people say _________ fits _________ system. Thats just usually means if ________ didnt play for _________ he would not be very good. You never hear people say Barry Sanders fit the Detroit system or Adrian Peterson fits the Vikings system.

I actually think Lynch would do well in Houston(who wouldnt). Lynch's biggest problem is he is not shifty enough to make something happen when its not there. Once he gets a head of steam though, he is tough to bring down, and has enough speed to take it the distance. With the running lanes Houston creates Lynch would wreak havoc running past LB's and over DB's.

That is not what I meant to say, but there might be some truth there. I have been watching a lot of Foster lately. Mostly to convince myself that I made the right move, selling him for AJ. In the format my league is in, unless AJ scores more point, over more years, I would have lost out. WR points are no more valuable than RB points, due to the starting requirements.

This is what I see when I watch Foster, or what I think to myself, rather:

"The Texans line stretches to the left, great blocking. Foster follows his line, then cuts back right, through a designed, good sized hole, then runs as far as he can before getting tackled." I am no scout, and never pretend to be, but I don't see anything special, most of the time. There are times when the hole never materializes, and he shows great patience, taking what is there. But other than him being patient, I don't see anything special.

I have heard plenty say that he has great vision. To me, vision is seeing yards that the average runningback doesn't see/get. I don't know that Foster does that. Sure, he is patient and does a good job recognizing when the hole will be there and when it will not. But I don't know that it takes a special talent to do that. In fact, I feel strongly that it doesn't. I think that is the reason so many backs look good in this scheme.

Now when I watch an Adrian Peterson, I see so much about him that makes him special. He regularly gets yards that very few RBs in the history of the NFL could get. His offensive line is not great, and he faces 8 in the box fairly often. Unlike Foster, most of Adrian's gains are his own doing. I could go on and on about what makes Peterson great, but I think it is blatant, obvious, and easy to see, in a player that great.

Another player that I really like, that I think is more talented than Foster, and would do even better in Houston's scheme is Felix Jones. His ability to plant and go is elite. His ability to hit top speed is elite. His ability to make people miss, without using much energy hiself, is elite. He reminds me of Priest Holmes, in that he rarely goes East/West. When making someone miss, he moves at a foward angle, like a rook in chess (Not my analogy). His decision making is great, and I will argue that with anyone. He decides what he wants to do, where the yards are, and moves towards it. Very little dancing.

I am torn by Foster, because I want to think that a player doing amazing things, would need to have the ability as a player to do amazing things, for the most part. But when I watch him, I don't see anything elite.

Peterson is a transcendental talent. We're watching one of the best RBs in the history of the game. So if you're saying that Peterson is a lot more talented than Foster, I don't think you'll find many that disagree with you. Still, I don't even see how that matters. If Foster continues at this pace, it's likely he signs a big contract in the offseason and Houston will not feel the need to bring in several more big time RBs for competition. And at that point, it won't matter that Foster is elite. He'll be a fantastic dynasty player for years to come.