Edward Snowden poll (5/20/14): Hero or Traitor? (1 Viewer)

[StrikeS2k]

How about coward?

I'm glad some of what he released is out in the open. I would feel better if it seemed like anyone with any real power in our government was doing something about it instead of just pumping out the daily rhetoric. But at least the average U.S. citizens now knows how far off the rails our government has gone, how healthy it is for us ALL to deeply mistrust them with our privacy and our Constitutional rights, and how dangerous the security for privacy swap is. The privacy "nuts" were vindicated I hope it wakes people up come election time. I also agree that there is no viable process for him to go through in order to blow the whistle on something this deep and harmful to so many in the higher echelons of government. I would fear for at least my livelihood and most likely my life.

Saying that, just because you want to expose some deep, dark secrets of the U.S. government that are harming your fellow citizens, you can't just indiscriminately grab every piece of Top Secret information you can get your hands on and then hold our government hostage with what you still have up your sleeve. He is basically bartering his own life and well being with the well being of our nation. That makes him a traitor. Whether we're happy with the ends, the means are not justified. We need security and the government does have to keep secrets, this is destructive to that entire process. Not to mention it has wreaked havoc with our foreign policy.

He had a third choice. He could have been a man and faced the music. The information could have been released through the U.S. media and gone through the media editing process. Even if he didn't go through the U.S. media and decided to send a drive off to Julian Assange, he still could have remained here and once the bomb dropped he could have stood up and faced the music. He could have walked into the NY times, the Fox Studios, or CNN and said "I'm here, I fear for my life, this is my story" and immediately gotten his story in front of the people. If Snowden stayed in the U.S. and went to prison here, he would have been a martyr. The international damage inflicted would have been minimized but the most important domestic revelations would have been released AND he would have garnered tons of support from privacy advocates on both the left and the right. He could have been a rallying point and hero to all pro-Constitution, privacy loving advocates. The fact that he is sitting under the protective shadow of Putin after passing through the protective embrace of China has killed any credibility he has. We have no way of knowing what he voluntarily or involuntarily has given away to our avowed enemies. We don't know what he still has yet to release, where it is, or whose hands have been on it.

While I agree he has helped our country in some ways I think he has harmed it as well. He had other options but he was too cowardly to take them.

I'm pretty confident, had he stayed in the US, he'd never see the inside of a prison. Some sort of "accident" would have occurred and we certainly wouldn't have gotten an accurate take on the information he has from our media. Not sure fearing for your life is "cowardly" though.

Of course. Because that's what happened to Daniel Ellsberg and because that's what happens to every other celebrity who defies the American government. They all mysteriously disappear.No offense, but this post represents the root of the problem IMO: many of you have an unreasoning fear of our government. We do not live in Orwell's world.

You're pretty naive if you don't think the most powerful nation in the world wouldn't kill one individual to keep a secret this big from coming to light.

Have you read the NSA thread?

 

[Doctor Detroit]

If any of the information he has is given to a foreign government, he should be put to death for treason.

Until this is aspect has been defined, I'm not sure how people can make a proper judgement. Leaking program information and stealing it are two very different things, what he may do to U.S. national security and international interests could be damaging for decades and irreversible. People seem to think the only info he has is on the U.S internal surveillance program, which is most certainly not the case. How can you call him a hero for having documents that may very well destroy your country?

They had a program that had architecture to protect the privacy of Americans that would still be able to sniff packets. Cheney and co. decided to scratch that. That took it too far. Are you a terrorist?

I am not defending Cheney, nor will I ever. The fact that the program existed and what Snowden did to expose it aren't in question here.

Snowden has compromised foreign intelligence sources, shared information of U.S. technology and intelligence gathering methods to China and probably Russia, and aided Al-Qaeda in determining overseas techniques in places like the tribal territories in Pakistan.

Maybe you'll get killed by your couch instead of a terrorist, but the damage he's done is going to last years and maybe decades.

 

[Fennis]

If any of the information he has is given to a foreign government, he should be put to death for treason.

Until this is aspect has been defined, I'm not sure how people can make a proper judgement. Leaking program information and stealing it are two very different things, what he may do to U.S. national security and international interests could be damaging for decades and irreversible. People seem to think the only info he has is on the U.S internal surveillance program, which is most certainly not the case. How can you call him a hero for having documents that may very well destroy your country?

They had a program that had architecture to protect the privacy of Americans that would still be able to sniff packets. Cheney and co. decided to scratch that. That took it too far. Are you a terrorist?

I am not defending Cheney, nor will I ever. The fact that the program existed and what Snowden did to expose it aren't in question here.

Snowden has compromised foreign intelligence sources, shared information of U.S. technology and intelligence gathering methods to China and probably Russia, and aided Al-Qaeda in determining overseas techniques in places like the tribal territories in Pakistan.

Maybe you'll get killed by your couch instead of a terrorist, but the damage he's done is going to last years and maybe decades.

The US intelligence agency is incredibly weak if a sys admin can bring down the entire country for decades to come. I don't begin to believe it.

 

[timschochet]

How about coward?

I'm glad some of what he released is out in the open. I would feel better if it seemed like anyone with any real power in our government was doing something about it instead of just pumping out the daily rhetoric. But at least the average U.S. citizens now knows how far off the rails our government has gone, how healthy it is for us ALL to deeply mistrust them with our privacy and our Constitutional rights, and how dangerous the security for privacy swap is. The privacy "nuts" were vindicated I hope it wakes people up come election time. I also agree that there is no viable process for him to go through in order to blow the whistle on something this deep and harmful to so many in the higher echelons of government. I would fear for at least my livelihood and most likely my life.

Saying that, just because you want to expose some deep, dark secrets of the U.S. government that are harming your fellow citizens, you can't just indiscriminately grab every piece of Top Secret information you can get your hands on and then hold our government hostage with what you still have up your sleeve. He is basically bartering his own life and well being with the well being of our nation. That makes him a traitor. Whether we're happy with the ends, the means are not justified. We need security and the government does have to keep secrets, this is destructive to that entire process. Not to mention it has wreaked havoc with our foreign policy.

He had a third choice. He could have been a man and faced the music. The information could have been released through the U.S. media and gone through the media editing process. Even if he didn't go through the U.S. media and decided to send a drive off to Julian Assange, he still could have remained here and once the bomb dropped he could have stood up and faced the music. He could have walked into the NY times, the Fox Studios, or CNN and said "I'm here, I fear for my life, this is my story" and immediately gotten his story in front of the people. If Snowden stayed in the U.S. and went to prison here, he would have been a martyr. The international damage inflicted would have been minimized but the most important domestic revelations would have been released AND he would have garnered tons of support from privacy advocates on both the left and the right. He could have been a rallying point and hero to all pro-Constitution, privacy loving advocates. The fact that he is sitting under the protective shadow of Putin after passing through the protective embrace of China has killed any credibility he has. We have no way of knowing what he voluntarily or involuntarily has given away to our avowed enemies. We don't know what he still has yet to release, where it is, or whose hands have been on it.

While I agree he has helped our country in some ways I think he has harmed it as well. He had other options but he was too cowardly to take them.

I'm pretty confident, had he stayed in the US, he'd never see the inside of a prison. Some sort of "accident" would have occurred and we certainly wouldn't have gotten an accurate take on the information he has from our media. Not sure fearing for your life is "cowardly" though.

You guys are disappointingly paranoid.

Dr. Detroit gets it, as usual.

 

[Henry Ford]

If you back Snowden you must by default oppose the president who authorizes warrantless searches of our private communications.

This is only true to the extent that you believe this is the only issue worthy of judging a president on.

Really? Obama wants to jail this "hero", people support presidents who jail heroes? I'd really like to hear how that works.

Benedict Arnold was an American hero for some of what he did, and a traitor for some of what he did. I think similarly of Snowden.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

If any of the information he has is given to a foreign government, he should be put to death for treason.

Until this is aspect has been defined, I'm not sure how people can make a proper judgement. Leaking program information and stealing it are two very different things, what he may do to U.S. national security and international interests could be damaging for decades and irreversible. People seem to think the only info he has is on the U.S internal surveillance program, which is most certainly not the case. How can you call him a hero for having documents that may very well destroy your country?

They had a program that had architecture to protect the privacy of Americans that would still be able to sniff packets. Cheney and co. decided to scratch that. That took it too far. Are you a terrorist?

I am not defending Cheney, nor will I ever. The fact that the program existed and what Snowden did to expose it aren't in question here.

Snowden has compromised foreign intelligence sources, shared information of U.S. technology and intelligence gathering methods to China and probably Russia, and aided Al-Qaeda in determining overseas techniques in places like the tribal territories in Pakistan.

Maybe you'll get killed by your couch instead of a terrorist, but the damage he's done is going to last years and maybe decades.

The US intelligence agency is incredibly weak if a sys admin can bring down the entire country for decades to come. I don't begin to believe it.

You don't understand what has happened then. He was a system admin at NSA, the level of national security information he had access to could set the intelligence community back decades. Why do you think he went to China then Russia? It wasn't for the Borscht.

Believe what you want, when the truth is revealed you'll regret you ever thought this way. Or maybe you won't, that's for you to decide.

 

[Henry Ford]

If any of the information he has is given to a foreign government, he should be put to death for treason.

Until this is aspect has been defined, I'm not sure how people can make a proper judgement. Leaking program information and stealing it are two very different things, what he may do to U.S. national security and international interests could be damaging for decades and irreversible. People seem to think the only info he has is on the U.S internal surveillance program, which is most certainly not the case. How can you call him a hero for having documents that may very well destroy your country?

They had a program that had architecture to protect the privacy of Americans that would still be able to sniff packets. Cheney and co. decided to scratch that. That took it too far. Are you a terrorist?

I am not defending Cheney, nor will I ever. The fact that the program existed and what Snowden did to expose it aren't in question here. Snowden has compromised foreign intelligence sources, shared information of U.S. technology and intelligence gathering methods to China and probably Russia, and aided Al-Qaeda in determining overseas techniques in places like the tribal territories in Pakistan.

Maybe you'll get killed by your couch instead of a terrorist, but the damage he's done is going to last years and maybe decades.

The US intelligence agency is incredibly weak if a sys admin can bring down the entire country for decades to come. I don't begin to believe it.

You don't understand what has happened then. He was a system admin at NSA, the level of national security information he had access to could set the intelligence community back decades. Why do you think he went to China then Russia? It wasn't for the Borscht. Believe what you want, when the truth is revealed you'll regret you ever thought this way. Or maybe you won't, that's for you to decide.

Confirmed. Chinese borscht is awful.

 

[Fennis]

If any of the information he has is given to a foreign government, he should be put to death for treason.

Until this is aspect has been defined, I'm not sure how people can make a proper judgement. Leaking program information and stealing it are two very different things, what he may do to U.S. national security and international interests could be damaging for decades and irreversible. People seem to think the only info he has is on the U.S internal surveillance program, which is most certainly not the case. How can you call him a hero for having documents that may very well destroy your country?

They had a program that had architecture to protect the privacy of Americans that would still be able to sniff packets. Cheney and co. decided to scratch that. That took it too far. Are you a terrorist?

I am not defending Cheney, nor will I ever. The fact that the program existed and what Snowden did to expose it aren't in question here.

Snowden has compromised foreign intelligence sources, shared information of U.S. technology and intelligence gathering methods to China and probably Russia, and aided Al-Qaeda in determining overseas techniques in places like the tribal territories in Pakistan.

Maybe you'll get killed by your couch instead of a terrorist, but the damage he's done is going to last years and maybe decades.

The US intelligence agency is incredibly weak if a sys admin can bring down the entire country for decades to come. I don't begin to believe it.

You don't understand what has happened then. He was a system admin at NSA, the level of national security information he had access to could set the intelligence community back decades. Why do you think he went to China then Russia? It wasn't for the Borscht.

Believe what you want, when the truth is revealed you'll regret you ever thought this way. Or maybe you won't, that's for you to decide.

I believe in the intelligences community ability to adapt to whatever threat there is.

 

[drummer]

If any of the information he has is given to a foreign government, he should be put to death for treason.

Until this is aspect has been defined, I'm not sure how people can make a proper judgement. Leaking program information and stealing it are two very different things, what he may do to U.S. national security and international interests could be damaging for decades and irreversible. People seem to think the only info he has is on the U.S internal surveillance program, which is most certainly not the case. How can you call him a hero for having documents that may very well destroy your country?

They had a program that had architecture to protect the privacy of Americans that would still be able to sniff packets. Cheney and co. decided to scratch that. That took it too far. Are you a terrorist?

I am not defending Cheney, nor will I ever. The fact that the program existed and what Snowden did to expose it aren't in question here.

Snowden has compromised foreign intelligence sources, shared information of U.S. technology and intelligence gathering methods to China and probably Russia, and aided Al-Qaeda in determining overseas techniques in places like the tribal territories in Pakistan.

Maybe you'll get killed by your couch instead of a terrorist, but the damage he's done is going to last years and maybe decades.

Snowden would not had leaked The Program had it not existed. This isn't about Americans being paranoid. Hell, who was more paranoid? Cheney and Co., or unsuspecting Americans who didn't know it existed prior to Snowden?

Either way, it's all out there now......well, at least what we know......and I knowing about it it does not put any ####### "blood of soldiers" on my hands. I should know about it. I deserve to know about it. It's my privacy at stake. There wasn't any ToS I had to sign at birth here in this Country.

For crying out loud, it's the NSA. I didn't elect any of them, know anything about them, yet they can know everything about me and spy on me without a warrant. You call that being "paranoid". I call that un-American.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

If any of the information he has is given to a foreign government, he should be put to death for treason.

Until this is aspect has been defined, I'm not sure how people can make a proper judgement. Leaking program information and stealing it are two very different things, what he may do to U.S. national security and international interests could be damaging for decades and irreversible. People seem to think the only info he has is on the U.S internal surveillance program, which is most certainly not the case. How can you call him a hero for having documents that may very well destroy your country?

They had a program that had architecture to protect the privacy of Americans that would still be able to sniff packets. Cheney and co. decided to scratch that. That took it too far. Are you a terrorist?

I am not defending Cheney, nor will I ever. The fact that the program existed and what Snowden did to expose it aren't in question here.

Snowden has compromised foreign intelligence sources, shared information of U.S. technology and intelligence gathering methods to China and probably Russia, and aided Al-Qaeda in determining overseas techniques in places like the tribal territories in Pakistan.

Maybe you'll get killed by your couch instead of a terrorist, but the damage he's done is going to last years and maybe decades.

Snowden would not had leaked The Program had it not existed. This isn't about Americans being paranoid. Hell, who was more paranoid? Cheney and Co., or unsuspecting Americans who didn't know it existed prior to Snowden?

Either way, it's all out there now......well, at least what we know......and I knowing about it it does not put any ####### "blood of soldiers" on my hands. I should know about it. I deserve to know about it. It's my privacy at stake. There wasn't any ToS I had to sign at birth here in this Country.

For crying out loud, it's the NSA. I didn't elect any of them, know anything about them, yet they can know everything about me and spy on me without a warrant. You call that being "paranoid". I call that un-American.

You are missing the whole point of what I wrote.

What is with the "paranoid" stuff? That was me addressing Commish who said Snowden would be mysteriously killed. I think you need to reread what I wrote and come back with something cogent, you're all over the place.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

If any of the information he has is given to a foreign government, he should be put to death for treason.

Until this is aspect has been defined, I'm not sure how people can make a proper judgement. Leaking program information and stealing it are two very different things, what he may do to U.S. national security and international interests could be damaging for decades and irreversible. People seem to think the only info he has is on the U.S internal surveillance program, which is most certainly not the case. How can you call him a hero for having documents that may very well destroy your country?

They had a program that had architecture to protect the privacy of Americans that would still be able to sniff packets. Cheney and co. decided to scratch that. That took it too far. Are you a terrorist?

I am not defending Cheney, nor will I ever. The fact that the program existed and what Snowden did to expose it aren't in question here.

Snowden has compromised foreign intelligence sources, shared information of U.S. technology and intelligence gathering methods to China and probably Russia, and aided Al-Qaeda in determining overseas techniques in places like the tribal territories in Pakistan.

Maybe you'll get killed by your couch instead of a terrorist, but the damage he's done is going to last years and maybe decades.

The US intelligence agency is incredibly weak if a sys admin can bring down the entire country for decades to come. I don't begin to believe it.

You don't understand what has happened then. He was a system admin at NSA, the level of national security information he had access to could set the intelligence community back decades. Why do you think he went to China then Russia? It wasn't for the Borscht.

Believe what you want, when the truth is revealed you'll regret you ever thought this way. Or maybe you won't, that's for you to decide.

I believe in the intelligences community ability to adapt to whatever threat there is.

Then you missed the years 1993 to 2001 then, among others. They adapt rather poorly actually.

 

[drummer]

If any of the information he has is given to a foreign government, he should be put to death for treason.

Until this is aspect has been defined, I'm not sure how people can make a proper judgement. Leaking program information and stealing it are two very different things, what he may do to U.S. national security and international interests could be damaging for decades and irreversible. People seem to think the only info he has is on the U.S internal surveillance program, which is most certainly not the case. How can you call him a hero for having documents that may very well destroy your country?

They had a program that had architecture to protect the privacy of Americans that would still be able to sniff packets. Cheney and co. decided to scratch that. That took it too far. Are you a terrorist?

I am not defending Cheney, nor will I ever. The fact that the program existed and what Snowden did to expose it aren't in question here.

Snowden has compromised foreign intelligence sources, shared information of U.S. technology and intelligence gathering methods to China and probably Russia, and aided Al-Qaeda in determining overseas techniques in places like the tribal territories in Pakistan.

Maybe you'll get killed by your couch instead of a terrorist, but the damage he's done is going to last years and maybe decades.

Snowden would not had leaked The Program had it not existed. This isn't about Americans being paranoid. Hell, who was more paranoid? Cheney and Co., or unsuspecting Americans who didn't know it existed prior to Snowden?

Either way, it's all out there now......well, at least what we know......and I knowing about it it does not put any ####### "blood of soldiers" on my hands. I should know about it. I deserve to know about it. It's my privacy at stake. There wasn't any ToS I had to sign at birth here in this Country.

For crying out loud, it's the NSA. I didn't elect any of them, know anything about them, yet they can know everything about me and spy on me without a warrant. You call that being "paranoid". I call that un-American.

You are missing the whole point of what I wrote.

What is with the "paranoid" stuff? That was me addressing Commish who said Snowden would be mysteriously killed. I think you need to reread what I wrote and come back with something cogent, you're all over the place.

You guys are disappointingly paranoid.

Did you post this or not?

I know what you're saying about Snowden. But if there was no Snowden, there would be no sunlight on The Program. Because that's the important subject: The Program.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

If any of the information he has is given to a foreign government, he should be put to death for treason.

Until this is aspect has been defined, I'm not sure how people can make a proper judgement. Leaking program information and stealing it are two very different things, what he may do to U.S. national security and international interests could be damaging for decades and irreversible. People seem to think the only info he has is on the U.S internal surveillance program, which is most certainly not the case. How can you call him a hero for having documents that may very well destroy your country?

They had a program that had architecture to protect the privacy of Americans that would still be able to sniff packets. Cheney and co. decided to scratch that. That took it too far. Are you a terrorist?

I am not defending Cheney, nor will I ever. The fact that the program existed and what Snowden did to expose it aren't in question here.

Snowden has compromised foreign intelligence sources, shared information of U.S. technology and intelligence gathering methods to China and probably Russia, and aided Al-Qaeda in determining overseas techniques in places like the tribal territories in Pakistan.

Maybe you'll get killed by your couch instead of a terrorist, but the damage he's done is going to last years and maybe decades.

Snowden would not had leaked The Program had it not existed. This isn't about Americans being paranoid. Hell, who was more paranoid? Cheney and Co., or unsuspecting Americans who didn't know it existed prior to Snowden?

Either way, it's all out there now......well, at least what we know......and I knowing about it it does not put any ####### "blood of soldiers" on my hands. I should know about it. I deserve to know about it. It's my privacy at stake. There wasn't any ToS I had to sign at birth here in this Country.

For crying out loud, it's the NSA. I didn't elect any of them, know anything about them, yet they can know everything about me and spy on me without a warrant. You call that being "paranoid". I call that un-American.

You are missing the whole point of what I wrote.

What is with the "paranoid" stuff? That was me addressing Commish who said Snowden would be mysteriously killed. I think you need to reread what I wrote and come back with something cogent, you're all over the place.

You guys are disappointingly paranoid.

Did you post this or not?

I know what you're saying about Snowden. But if there was no Snowden, there would be no sunlight on The Program. Because that's the important subject: The Program.

See bolded please.

We are not in any disagreement about the the program, it was unconstitutional and the methodology was completely out of bounds. The premise to protect us was legitimate, but the application was beyond flawed. Again, Snowden making this information public is not why I have a problem with him, or feel he should be tried for treason. It's taking classified documents to China and Russia and doing who knows what with them. Not all those documents were related to the program, many analysts have made this very clear.

 

[drummer]

If any of the information he has is given to a foreign government, he should be put to death for treason.

Until this is aspect has been defined, I'm not sure how people can make a proper judgement. Leaking program information and stealing it are two very different things, what he may do to U.S. national security and international interests could be damaging for decades and irreversible. People seem to think the only info he has is on the U.S internal surveillance program, which is most certainly not the case. How can you call him a hero for having documents that may very well destroy your country?

They had a program that had architecture to protect the privacy of Americans that would still be able to sniff packets. Cheney and co. decided to scratch that. That took it too far. Are you a terrorist?

I am not defending Cheney, nor will I ever. The fact that the program existed and what Snowden did to expose it aren't in question here.

Snowden has compromised foreign intelligence sources, shared information of U.S. technology and intelligence gathering methods to China and probably Russia, and aided Al-Qaeda in determining overseas techniques in places like the tribal territories in Pakistan.

Maybe you'll get killed by your couch instead of a terrorist, but the damage he's done is going to last years and maybe decades.

Snowden would not had leaked The Program had it not existed. This isn't about Americans being paranoid. Hell, who was more paranoid? Cheney and Co., or unsuspecting Americans who didn't know it existed prior to Snowden?

Either way, it's all out there now......well, at least what we know......and I knowing about it it does not put any ####### "blood of soldiers" on my hands. I should know about it. I deserve to know about it. It's my privacy at stake. There wasn't any ToS I had to sign at birth here in this Country.

For crying out loud, it's the NSA. I didn't elect any of them, know anything about them, yet they can know everything about me and spy on me without a warrant. You call that being "paranoid". I call that un-American.

You are missing the whole point of what I wrote.

What is with the "paranoid" stuff? That was me addressing Commish who said Snowden would be mysteriously killed. I think you need to reread what I wrote and come back with something cogent, you're all over the place.

You guys are disappointingly paranoid.

Did you post this or not?

I know what you're saying about Snowden. But if there was no Snowden, there would be no sunlight on The Program. Because that's the important subject: The Program.

See bolded please.

We are not in any disagreement about the the program, it was unconstitutional and the methodology was completely out of bounds. The premise to protect us was legitimate, but the application was beyond flawed. Again, Snowden making this information public is not why I have a problem with him, or feel he should be tried for treason. It's taking classified documents to China and Russia and doing who knows what with them. Not all those documents were related to the program, many analysts have made this very clear.

Ok if we are gonna parse "you guys".......

Ok, you get the point.

Whatever Snowden or even Assange has, it still doesn't mean our own Government isn't up to dirty #### against their own people, let alone other governments that might again put their own people is danger.

 

[Hilts]

A debate on Snowden from IQ2: http://intelligencesquaredus.org/debates/upcoming-debates/item/1017-snowden-was-justified

 

[Joe T]

I'll watch the Frontline stuff when I get a chance.

Translation: no I won't because I like to play dumb here.

Added translation: no I won't do any research either, but I'll continue to act like I know what I'm talking about.

 

[drummer]

A debate on Snowden from IQ2: http://intelligencesquaredus.org/debates/upcoming-debates/item/1017-snowden-was-justified

Well, after the Frontline doc, I guess we can rule a few of the oppositions points out.

ETA: thanks for the link though.

 

[Norman Paperman]

Let's flip the tables on the it's-Ok-to-spy-on-Americans crowd...if the government wasn't doing anything wrong, it has nothing to worry about when things are exposed.

I think the irreparable damage argument is grossly overstated. I don't feel any less safe today than I did 5 years ago.

 

[Short Corner]

What makes you assume that? The Times and the Post, among others, are known for reporting this sort of thing.

Seriously?

 

[Short Corner]

I'll watch the Frontline stuff when I get a chance.

Translation: no I won't because I like to play dumb here.

 

[drummer]

I'll watch the Frontline stuff when I get a chance.

Translation: no I won't because I like to play dumb here.

OMG THAT'S SO DOPE!

 

[Short Corner]

Let's flip the tables on the it's-Ok-to-spy-on-Americans crowd...if the government wasn't doing anything wrong, it has nothing to worry about when things are exposed.

I think the irreparable damage argument is grossly overstated. I don't feel any less safe today than I did 5 years ago.

They used the whole "if you expose this you will be endangering Americans" to keep this under wraps for years. They are just taking it to another level now.

 

[fatness]

How can you call him a hero for having documents that may very well destroy your country?

You guys are disappointingly paranoid.

 

[fatness]

Believe what you want, when the truth is revealed you'll regret you ever thought this way.

The government has had plenty of chances to reveal truth, and they continue not doing it. They've gone so far as lying to the Supreme Court. Snowden is the one who's been revealing true things, which the government lied about for years.

The idea that one day the government will reveal "the truth" about all this is pretty ludicrous.

 

[fatness]

Everyone should know just how much the government lied to defend the NSA

Here's what happened: just before Edward Snowden became a household name, the ACLU argued before the supreme court that the Fisa Amendments Act – one of the two main laws used by the NSA to conduct mass surveillance – was unconstitutional.

In a sharply divided opinion, the supreme court ruled, 5-4, that the case should be dismissed because the plaintiffs didn't have "standing" – in other words, that the ACLU couldn't prove with near-certainty that their clients, which included journalists and human rights advocates, were targets of surveillance, so they couldn't challenge the law. As the New York Times noted this week, the court relied on two claims by the Justice Department to support their ruling: 1) that the NSA would only get the content of Americans' communications without a warrant when they are targeting a foreigner abroad for surveillance, and 2) that the Justice Department would notify criminal defendants who have been spied on under the Fisa Amendments Act, so there exists some way to challenge the law in court.

It turns out that neither of those statements were true – but it took Snowden's historic whistleblowing to prove it.

 

[drummer]

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/05/nsa-loves-the-bahamas-so-much-it-records-all-its-cellphone-calls/

Documents obtained by former National Security Agency contractor Edward Snowden show that the NSA has covertly intercepted and recorded nearly all of the calls made to, from, or between cell phones in The Bahamas. The surveillance, reported by The Intercept, used legal monitoring access obtained by the Drug Enforcement Administration.

The allegations raised by the documents led the Bahamian government to ask for an explanation of the surveillance, The Bahamas Minister of Foreign Affairs Fred Mitchell told the Nassau Guardian. Mitchell said that the government would issue a statement today after a Cabinet meeting on the issue. At the time of this article, no statement has yet been posted on the Government of The Bahamas’ website.

The surveillance system, called Basecoat, was used as a test bed for development of the “full get” surveillance technology in a broader program called Somalget. The systems built and tested for Basecoat have also been deployed as Scalawag, Oilyrag, and Lollygag, collection systems set up in another unnamed country.

From the comments:

So they know where to score the best weed?

Also:

California has become the largest state to pass some version of the “4th Amendment Protection Act” in one of its lawmaking bodies. The Golden State’s senate passed the bill on Monday, and the bill likely will come before the state assembly later this summer.

As currently drafted, the California bill prohibits “the state from providing material support, participation, or assistance to any federal agency attempting the illegal and unconstitutional collection of electronic data or metadata, without consent, of any person not based on a valid warrant that particularly describes the person, place, and thing to be searched or seized or a court order, or in accordance with judicially recognized exceptions to warrant requirements.”

State Senator Ted Lieu (D-Torrance), who authored the bill, told Ars that the bill is a “substantive and symbolic” way to counter the effects of the National Security Agency (NSA). Lieu is an Air Force veteran who served as a prosecutor in the Judge Advocate General corps, and he currently serves as a Lt. Colonel in the Air Force reserves.

“There's nothing that says that states have to cooperate with a federal agency,” he said. “States can do what they want so long as they don't violate the law. We see no statute that says that the 50 states have to follow NSA's orders. Let's say the NSA wants to track down 100,000 people in California and they want it from the employment database. [The bill] would say no, you're prohibited from giving it. [Federal authorities] would have to get it through other means. The states can't stop them, but we can make it harder to violate constitutional rights.”

 

[Politician Spock]

If any of the information he has is given to a foreign government, he should be put to death for treason.

Until this is aspect has been defined, I'm not sure how people can make a proper judgement. Leaking program information and stealing it are two very different things, what he may do to U.S. national security and international interests could be damaging for decades and irreversible. People seem to think the only info he has is on the U.S internal surveillance program, which is most certainly not the case. How can you call him a hero for having documents that may very well destroy your country?

If some IT guy has documents that destroys the country we have far bigger problems than Snowden.

Yeah, not sure how anything we have learned could destroy the country.

Seriously?

Country /= Federal government. The patriots fought to free our country. They didn't fight for the Federal government. It didn't even exist yet. And many patriots choked at the thought of even establishing one. They caved because they thought the Bill of Rights was good enough to protect the country from a Federal government. Two centuries later, we've learned they were wrong.

 

[Slapdash]

If any of the information he has is given to a foreign government, he should be put to death for treason.

Until this is aspect has been defined, I'm not sure how people can make a proper judgement. Leaking program information and stealing it are two very different things, what he may do to U.S. national security and international interests could be damaging for decades and irreversible. People seem to think the only info he has is on the U.S internal surveillance program, which is most certainly not the case. How can you call him a hero for having documents that may very well destroy your country?

If some IT guy has documents that destroys the country we have far bigger problems than Snowden.

Yeah, not sure how anything we have learned could destroy the country.

Seriously?

Seriously

 

[Jayrok]

If any of the information he has is given to a foreign government, he should be put to death for treason.

Until this is aspect has been defined, I'm not sure how people can make a proper judgement. Leaking program information and stealing it are two very different things, what he may do to U.S. national security and international interests could be damaging for decades and irreversible. People seem to think the only info he has is on the U.S internal surveillance program, which is most certainly not the case. How can you call him a hero for having documents that may very well destroy your country?

They had a program that had architecture to protect the privacy of Americans that would still be able to sniff packets. Cheney and co. decided to scratch that. That took it too far. Are you a terrorist?

I am not defending Cheney, nor will I ever. The fact that the program existed and what Snowden did to expose it aren't in question here.

Snowden has compromised foreign intelligence sources, shared information of U.S. technology and intelligence gathering methods to China and probably Russia, and aided Al-Qaeda in determining overseas techniques in places like the tribal territories in Pakistan.

Maybe you'll get killed by your couch instead of a terrorist, but the damage he's done is going to last years and maybe decades.

Snowden would not had leaked The Program had it not existed. This isn't about Americans being paranoid. Hell, who was more paranoid? Cheney and Co., or unsuspecting Americans who didn't know it existed prior to Snowden?

Either way, it's all out there now......well, at least what we know......and I knowing about it it does not put any ####### "blood of soldiers" on my hands. I should know about it. I deserve to know about it. It's my privacy at stake. There wasn't any ToS I had to sign at birth here in this Country.

For crying out loud, it's the NSA. I didn't elect any of them, know anything about them, yet they can know everything about me and spy on me without a warrant. You call that being "paranoid". I call that un-American.

You are missing the whole point of what I wrote.

What is with the "paranoid" stuff? That was me addressing Commish who said Snowden would be mysteriously killed. I think you need to reread what I wrote and come back with something cogent, you're all over the place.

You guys are disappointingly paranoid.

Did you post this or not?

I know what you're saying about Snowden. But if there was no Snowden, there would be no sunlight on The Program. Because that's the important subject: The Program.

See bolded please.

We are not in any disagreement about the the program, it was unconstitutional and the methodology was completely out of bounds. The premise to protect us was legitimate, but the application was beyond flawed. Again, Snowden making this information public is not why I have a problem with him, or feel he should be tried for treason. It's taking classified documents to China and Russia and doing who knows what with them. Not all those documents were related to the program, many analysts have made this very clear.

This is my stance as well. I think we all agree that the program is invasive on privacy and is unconstitutional. I believe the initial premise was to protect US citizens and property from future tragic events like 9/11. But it got out of hand.

But like DD said, not all of these leaked documents were about a surveillance program. And they were leaked to foreign gov'ts like China and Russia. That is what I have a problem with.

 

[Jayrok]

If any of the information he has is given to a foreign government, he should be put to death for treason.

Until this is aspect has been defined, I'm not sure how people can make a proper judgement. Leaking program information and stealing it are two very different things, what he may do to U.S. national security and international interests could be damaging for decades and irreversible. People seem to think the only info he has is on the U.S internal surveillance program, which is most certainly not the case. How can you call him a hero for having documents that may very well destroy your country?

They had a program that had architecture to protect the privacy of Americans that would still be able to sniff packets. Cheney and co. decided to scratch that. That took it too far. Are you a terrorist?

I am not defending Cheney, nor will I ever. The fact that the program existed and what Snowden did to expose it aren't in question here.

Snowden has compromised foreign intelligence sources, shared information of U.S. technology and intelligence gathering methods to China and probably Russia, and aided Al-Qaeda in determining overseas techniques in places like the tribal territories in Pakistan.

Maybe you'll get killed by your couch instead of a terrorist, but the damage he's done is going to last years and maybe decades.

The US intelligence agency is incredibly weak if a sys admin can bring down the entire country for decades to come. I don't begin to believe it.

The sys admin didn't shut down a few servers or plant a virus that can be tracked and purged within a few days. He provided adversaries the nation's game plan on how they gather intelligence. Those thousands of documents are now in the hands of nations that could use them against us for years to come. They could also give or sell them to terrorists groups who would love to learn how the US is thwarting their plans and adjust accordingly.

It could lead to growth in global terrorism as groups convince recruits that the terrible satan that is the USA is weakened by the exposure of spy methods and systems. The sys admin's actions may not bring down the entire country, but it could cause a chain reaction that may hinder our ability to fight terrorism in the coming decades. This information may also give the Chinese enough good information to bolster their own spy program.

We're not saying that the sky is falling. But there is potential here for a lot of damage to our country and way of life. Time will tell of course, but I don't think the White House or the NSA director could just go to China and ask for the documents back. The information is out there and there is nothing we can do about it.

 

[The Commish]

How about coward?

I'm glad some of what he released is out in the open. I would feel better if it seemed like anyone with any real power in our government was doing something about it instead of just pumping out the daily rhetoric. But at least the average U.S. citizens now knows how far off the rails our government has gone, how healthy it is for us ALL to deeply mistrust them with our privacy and our Constitutional rights, and how dangerous the security for privacy swap is. The privacy "nuts" were vindicated I hope it wakes people up come election time. I also agree that there is no viable process for him to go through in order to blow the whistle on something this deep and harmful to so many in the higher echelons of government. I would fear for at least my livelihood and most likely my life.

Saying that, just because you want to expose some deep, dark secrets of the U.S. government that are harming your fellow citizens, you can't just indiscriminately grab every piece of Top Secret information you can get your hands on and then hold our government hostage with what you still have up your sleeve. He is basically bartering his own life and well being with the well being of our nation. That makes him a traitor. Whether we're happy with the ends, the means are not justified. We need security and the government does have to keep secrets, this is destructive to that entire process. Not to mention it has wreaked havoc with our foreign policy.

He had a third choice. He could have been a man and faced the music. The information could have been released through the U.S. media and gone through the media editing process. Even if he didn't go through the U.S. media and decided to send a drive off to Julian Assange, he still could have remained here and once the bomb dropped he could have stood up and faced the music. He could have walked into the NY times, the Fox Studios, or CNN and said "I'm here, I fear for my life, this is my story" and immediately gotten his story in front of the people. If Snowden stayed in the U.S. and went to prison here, he would have been a martyr. The international damage inflicted would have been minimized but the most important domestic revelations would have been released AND he would have garnered tons of support from privacy advocates on both the left and the right. He could have been a rallying point and hero to all pro-Constitution, privacy loving advocates. The fact that he is sitting under the protective shadow of Putin after passing through the protective embrace of China has killed any credibility he has. We have no way of knowing what he voluntarily or involuntarily has given away to our avowed enemies. We don't know what he still has yet to release, where it is, or whose hands have been on it.

While I agree he has helped our country in some ways I think he has harmed it as well. He had other options but he was too cowardly to take them.

I'm pretty confident, had he stayed in the US, he'd never see the inside of a prison. Some sort of "accident" would have occurred and we certainly wouldn't have gotten an accurate take on the information he has from our media. Not sure fearing for your life is "cowardly" though.

You guys are disappointingly paranoid.

Don't confuse my lack of faith in our government to do the right thing with paranoia

 

[Jayrok]

I believe in the intelligences community ability to adapt to whatever threat there is.

Well I believe that too. This just has the potential to set our intelligence community back. They'll develop new strategies, hire new operatives, buy new systems, spend lots of money. Meanwhile some of the clout of the USA in the world's intelligence community is diminished that could lead to some dangerous groups not being quite as afraid to conduct operations as they may have been in the past. We won't know any extent of damage this could lead to for quite some time. All because a sys admin, with clearance and opportunity, took it upon himself to tell the world that the US gov't listens in on private conversations within its borders.

The world doesn't give a #### about the US government spying on its own citizens. It doesn't give a #### about the US constitution. But much if it is probably grateful to Snowden for sharing such intriguing secrets. I wonder if any of this results in nations like China increasing its own methods to limit the personal liberties of its citizens. Course that may damage their stellar human rights record.

 

[Jayrok]

Let's flip the tables on the it's-Ok-to-spy-on-Americans crowd...if the government wasn't doing anything wrong, it has nothing to worry about when things are exposed.

I think the irreparable damage argument is grossly overstated. I don't feel any less safe today than I did 5 years ago.

sigh.. my concern is not about whether or not the gov't was or is doing anything wrong in terms of infringing on the privacy of US citizens. I am flatly against it, same as you. My concern is a guy illegally disclosing all of this to foreign nations and then fleeing to Russia.

 

[Slapdash]

But like DD said, not all of these leaked documents were about a surveillance program. And they were leaked to foreign gov'ts like China and Russia. That is what I have a problem with.

Snowden disputes this. Do we have anything besides paranoid conjecture to suggest he is lying?

 

[timschochet]

Hopefully I will get a chance to watch the Frontline piece within the next few days. But I strongly doubt it has any proof that the New York Times refused to print stories because it was intimidated or scared by the government. Proof, in this case, would have to be the direct testimony of the publisher or the journalists involved: anything else is conjecture. The fact that they met with government officials proves nothing.

Without this sort of proof, I'll never believe in this kind of argument, because the Times has a long history of defying the government, including the printing of the Pentagon Papers, which has been mentioned several times. The fact that Snowden believed that the Times wouldn't publish his story only makes me question him more- and not the Times.

 

[Joe T]

Hopefully I will get a chance to watch the Frontline piece within the next few days. But I strongly doubt it has any proof that the New York Times refused to print stories because it was intimidated or scared by the government. Proof, in this case, would have to be the direct testimony of the publisher or the journalists involved: anything else is conjecture. The fact that they met with government officials proves nothing.

Without this sort of proof, I'll never believe in this kind of argument, because the Times has a long history of defying the government, including the printing of the Pentagon Papers, which has been mentioned several times. The fact that Snowden believed that the Times wouldn't publish his story only makes me question him more- and not the Times.

Maybe you should hold off on commenting further until you watch it. That would be great for all of us.

 

[timschochet]

Hopefully I will get a chance to watch the Frontline piece within the next few days. But I strongly doubt it has any proof that the New York Times refused to print stories because it was intimidated or scared by the government. Proof, in this case, would have to be the direct testimony of the publisher or the journalists involved: anything else is conjecture. The fact that they met with government officials proves nothing.

Without this sort of proof, I'll never believe in this kind of argument, because the Times has a long history of defying the government, including the printing of the Pentagon Papers, which has been mentioned several times. The fact that Snowden believed that the Times wouldn't publish his story only makes me question him more- and not the Times.

Maybe you should hold off on commenting further until you watch it. That would be great for all of us.

The fact that you're on the side of those who disagree with me on this subject will, hopefully, give some of the the rest of them a little pause.

 

[Norman Paperman]

Let's flip the tables on the it's-Ok-to-spy-on-Americans crowd...if the government wasn't doing anything wrong, it has nothing to worry about when things are exposed.

I think the irreparable damage argument is grossly overstated. I don't feel any less safe today than I did 5 years ago.

sigh.. my concern is not about whether or not the gov't was or is doing anything wrong in terms of infringing on the privacy of US citizens. I am flatly against it, same as you. My concern is a guy illegally disclosing all of this to foreign nations and then fleeing to Russia.

Serious question - what are you worried about being disclosed?

I don't feel threatened by any other nation - militarily. So, I am not worried about any other country - including Russia or China knowing more about our military - I think it is of far more limited use than perhaps others think - given that I do not foresee a large-scale military conflict in the next 5 years, after which most of the information known today would be outdated.

 

[Norman Paperman]

How can you call him a hero for having documents that may very well destroy your country?

I am not ready to call him a hero - but I don't believe leaking the documents to anyone will "very well destroy [the] country".

 

[Bonzai]

Let's flip the tables on the it's-Ok-to-spy-on-Americans crowd...if the government wasn't doing anything wrong, it has nothing to worry about when things are exposed.

I think the irreparable damage argument is grossly overstated. I don't feel any less safe today than I did 5 years ago.

sigh.. my concern is not about whether or not the gov't was or is doing anything wrong in terms of infringing on the privacy of US citizens. I am flatly against it, same as you. My concern is a guy illegally disclosing all of this to foreign nations and then fleeing to Russia.

What's been disclosed to foreign nations?

 

[Slapdash]

Hopefully I will get a chance to watch the Frontline piece within the next few days. But I strongly doubt it has any proof that the New York Times refused to print stories because it was intimidated or scared by the government. Proof, in this case, would have to be the direct testimony of the publisher or the journalists involved: anything else is conjecture. The fact that they met with government officials proves nothing.

Without this sort of proof, I'll never believe in this kind of argument, because the Times has a long history of defying the government, including the printing of the Pentagon Papers, which has been mentioned several times. The fact that Snowden believed that the Times wouldn't publish his story only makes me question him more- and not the Times.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

If Frontline or any of the stories about this don't connect the dots from the Bush Administration all the way back to the Washington administration then it's probably worthless. None of this stuff exists if Washington didn't use spies or gather intelligence on his own people.

 

[The Commish]

If Frontline or any of the stories about this don't connect the dots from the Bush Administration all the way back to the Washington administration then it's probably worthless. None of this stuff exists if Washington didn't use spies or gather intelligence on his own people.

 

[jonessed]

If there were a legitimate outlet for whistle blowers I'd disagree with how he handled it, but given the recent persecution of people who've revealed obvious crimes it's hard to find fault with him IMO.

This. It's the Obama Administration's fault for him running to Hong Kong and Russia. The incessant and unrelenting way they've hounded whistleblowers (before Snowden) forced his hand. No administration has been so unforgiving and draconian in its treatment of people trying to tell the truth.

I think this plays into it a lot. After running off to Russia and China to dump secrets I no longer consider him a hero, but the administration really limited his options with their treatment of whistleblowers. I'm not sure he could have gone anywhere else.It's a shame our news media has become so spineless. This is really something they should stand up to.

 

[DrJ]

So Snowden is kind of like Clinton, who sold a bunch of crap to the Chinese. Except he did some good things too.

 

[Bonzai]

If there were a legitimate outlet for whistle blowers I'd disagree with how he handled it, but given the recent persecution of people who've revealed obvious crimes it's hard to find fault with him IMO.

This. It's the Obama Administration's fault for him running to Hong Kong and Russia. The incessant and unrelenting way they've hounded whistleblowers (before Snowden) forced his hand. No administration has been so unforgiving and draconian in its treatment of people trying to tell the truth.

I think this plays into it a lot. After running off to Russia and China to dump secrets I no longer consider him a hero, but the administration really limited his options with their treatment of whistleblowers. I'm not sure he could have gone anywhere else.It's a shame our news media has become so spineless. This is really something they should stand up to.

What secrets did he dump?

 

[DrJ]

If this one dude was able to gain and expose vast amounts of confidential national secrets that will hurt our security for decades to come, the US probably needs to take a hard look at their security measures anyways. Why does this guy have access to all of this stuff he didn't really need to do his job? It was probably only a matter of time before the Chinese and Russians got what they wanted anyways at that rate, this guy might have limited the damage by limiting the scope and offering a wake up call.

 

[Jayrok]

But like DD said, not all of these leaked documents were about a surveillance program. And they were leaked to foreign gov'ts like China and Russia. That is what I have a problem with.

Snowden disputes this. Do we have anything besides paranoid conjecture to suggest he is lying?

I don't think anyone yet knows the full extent of information he released and no one can know for sure if he is telling the truth or not. It has been reported that he told the journalists that he also had access to the names of NSA agents and lists of covert operatives and operations. I can't know this for sure and don't claim to. Lists of programs were included in the information (it is reported) and some of those programs are used to pinpoint locations of known terrorists. They have assisted in drone strikes against terrorist targets in locations in afghanistan. This disclosure could give terrorists the resources to improve how they operate.

Snowden told the South China Morning Post that the US has been hacking computers in Hong Kong and mainland China for years. This has nothing to do with domestic surveillance against Americans.

If it comes out that all he did was reveal documents that illustrate how the US and British governments monitor Yahoo messenger and other webcam apps, then I will apologize and get more behind Snowden. I hope that is the case.

 

[Slapdash]

But like DD said, not all of these leaked documents were about a surveillance program. And they were leaked to foreign gov'ts like China and Russia. That is what I have a problem with.

Snowden disputes this. Do we have anything besides paranoid conjecture to suggest he is lying?

I don't think anyone yet knows the full extent of information he released and no one can know for sure if he is telling the truth or not. It has been reported that he told the journalists that he also had access to the names of NSA agents and lists of covert operatives and operations. I can't know this for sure and don't claim to. Lists of programs were included in the information (it is reported) and some of those programs are used to pinpoint locations of known terrorists. They have assisted in drone strikes against terrorist targets in locations in afghanistan. This disclosure could give terrorists the resources to improve how they operate.

Snowden told the South China Morning Post that the US has been hacking computers in Hong Kong and mainland China for years. This has nothing to do with domestic surveillance against Americans.

If it comes out that all he did was reveal documents that illustrate how the US and British governments monitor Yahoo messenger and other webcam apps, then I will apologize and get more behind Snowden. I hope that is the case.

Reported where?

 

[Jayrok]

Serious question - what are you worried about being disclosed?

I don't feel threatened by any other nation - militarily. So, I am not worried about any other country - including Russia or China knowing more about our military - I think it is of far more limited use than perhaps others think - given that I do not foresee a large-scale military conflict in the next 5 years, after which most of the information known today would be outdated.

Indepth plans on how US intelligence agencies operate in the new world of cyber-warfare.

That's the thing.. no one can match the US in a straight military campaign. I am also not worried about another country invading the USA. Russia and China already know about our military, where we are stationed, and our tactics in combat. That is a non-issue as we know of theirs too. What they don't know and what they strive to learn is how our country will/can conduct cyber combat operations.

No, there probably won't be a large-scale military conflict in the coming years. It is about information warfare. That is the future of warfare. You don't have to have boots on the ground to inflict great damage to another nation anymore. Spies have been around since there have been conflicts. If you hinder how they perform operations you could weaken their host nation's ability to conduct military operations whether it's combat, recon, or even humanitarian.

If the US scrapped all of its surveillance operations, as Snowden and perhaps you, want.. how do we compete on a global scale with other powers such as Russia and China in terms of cyber awareness? Do you suppose they will also fall in line and get rid of all of their surveillance programs? I don't have a problem with Snowden's intent and I don't have reason to question his heart in the matter. But I think he went too far and is extremely naive in thinking this will result in governments of the world scrapping all spy operations.