Edward Snowden poll (5/20/14): Hero or Traitor? (1 Viewer)

[Politician Spock]

So the gubment can see my ffa/interwebs posts that I erase, edit, retype, etc,?

Whoa.

of course....

And that is just scratching the surface of what they can do.

 

[JZilla]

Not a hero or a traitor, just an idiot

I won't listen to a thing he says but you can't avoid some headlines, and he's even dumber than I thought if he thinks he's going to somehow be forgiven for running into the arms of a hostile regime.

The stuff he leaked all you outraged people should have known about ten years ago when the Patriot Act was in the news. Back then, we were all for whatever it takes to keep the terrorists at bay. The NSA's done nothing illegal, which makes him not a whistleblower. Technically, it makes him a traitor, though I've decided to just stick with idiot, since he kind of (only kind of) meant well.

 

[timschochet]

Not a hero or a traitor, just an idiot

I won't listen to a thing he says but you can't avoid some headlines, and he's even dumber than I thought if he thinks he's going to somehow be forgiven for running into the arms of a hostile regime.

The stuff he leaked all you outraged people should have known about ten years ago when the Patriot Act was in the news. Back then, we were all for whatever it takes to keep the terrorists at bay. The NSA's done nothing illegal, which makes him not a whistleblower. Technically, it makes him a traitor, though I've decided to just stick with idiot, since he kind of (only kind of) meant well.

I've been one of the biggest defenders of the NSA in this forum, but even I acknowledge that they've committed some illegal acts. How can you assert otherwise? Have you been following this story?

 

[eoMMan]

Not a hero or a traitor, just an idiot

I won't listen to a thing he says but you can't avoid some headlines, and he's even dumber than I thought if he thinks he's going to somehow be forgiven for running into the arms of a hostile regime.

The stuff he leaked all you outraged people should have known about ten years ago when the Patriot Act was in the news. Back then, we were all for whatever it takes to keep the terrorists at bay. The NSA's done nothing illegal, which makes him not a whistleblower. Technically, it makes him a traitor, though I've decided to just stick with idiot, since he kind of (only kind of) meant well.

You won't even hear him out? Just attack him?

 

[JZilla]

Not a hero or a traitor, just an idiot

I won't listen to a thing he says but you can't avoid some headlines, and he's even dumber than I thought if he thinks he's going to somehow be forgiven for running into the arms of a hostile regime.

The stuff he leaked all you outraged people should have known about ten years ago when the Patriot Act was in the news. Back then, we were all for whatever it takes to keep the terrorists at bay. The NSA's done nothing illegal, which makes him not a whistleblower. Technically, it makes him a traitor, though I've decided to just stick with idiot, since he kind of (only kind of) meant well.

I've been one of the biggest defenders of the NSA in this forum, but even I acknowledge that they've committed some illegal acts. How can you assert otherwise? Have you been following this story?

Are you talking about violations by individuals, like abusing the system to spy on an ex, or are you talking about programs - the meat of what he disclosed?

 

[JZilla]

Not a hero or a traitor, just an idiot

I won't listen to a thing he says but you can't avoid some headlines, and he's even dumber than I thought if he thinks he's going to somehow be forgiven for running into the arms of a hostile regime.

The stuff he leaked all you outraged people should have known about ten years ago when the Patriot Act was in the news. Back then, we were all for whatever it takes to keep the terrorists at bay. The NSA's done nothing illegal, which makes him not a whistleblower. Technically, it makes him a traitor, though I've decided to just stick with idiot, since he kind of (only kind of) meant well.

You won't even hear him out? Just attack him?

#### that guy.

 

[fatness]

Not a hero or a traitor, just an idiot

I won't listen to a thing he says but you can't avoid some headlines, and he's even dumber than I thought if he thinks he's going to somehow be forgiven for running into the arms of a hostile regime.

I don't get this. The only reason I can imagine not listening to the guy is fear.

 

[timschochet]

Not a hero or a traitor, just an idiot

I won't listen to a thing he says but you can't avoid some headlines, and he's even dumber than I thought if he thinks he's going to somehow be forgiven for running into the arms of a hostile regime.

The stuff he leaked all you outraged people should have known about ten years ago when the Patriot Act was in the news. Back then, we were all for whatever it takes to keep the terrorists at bay. The NSA's done nothing illegal, which makes him not a whistleblower. Technically, it makes him a traitor, though I've decided to just stick with idiot, since he kind of (only kind of) meant well.

I've been one of the biggest defenders of the NSA in this forum, but even I acknowledge that they've committed some illegal acts. How can you assert otherwise? Have you been following this story?

Are you talking about violations by individuals, like abusing the system to spy on an ex, or are you talking about programs - the meat of what he disclosed?

For me, mostly the former- though you'll certainly get an argument on the latter as well; I'm just not the right person to make it. But they've also lied to Congress and to the public, and that is surely against the law.

 

[JZilla]

Not a hero or a traitor, just an idiot

I won't listen to a thing he says but you can't avoid some headlines, and he's even dumber than I thought if he thinks he's going to somehow be forgiven for running into the arms of a hostile regime.

I don't get this. The only reason I can imagine not listening to the guy is fear.

Have you read the book of Mormon? Fear, or lack of interest?

I've given this dude enough of my time. If he had stayed home, stood his ground and faced the music, I'd probably give him a fairer shake. When you do something you know is illegal for some idealistic motive, don't just drop the bomb and run. Put your money where your mouth is. His press friends had everything from day one.. he held all the cards anyway. Nobody is going to shoot him

I just find it funny he seems to think it's a reasonable expectation after seeking asylum from Putin to come home to a hero's welcome. And I simply haven't been impressed by anything he's released.

 

[JZilla]

Not a hero or a traitor, just an idiot

I won't listen to a thing he says but you can't avoid some headlines, and he's even dumber than I thought if he thinks he's going to somehow be forgiven for running into the arms of a hostile regime.

The stuff he leaked all you outraged people should have known about ten years ago when the Patriot Act was in the news. Back then, we were all for whatever it takes to keep the terrorists at bay. The NSA's done nothing illegal, which makes him not a whistleblower. Technically, it makes him a traitor, though I've decided to just stick with idiot, since he kind of (only kind of) meant well.

I've been one of the biggest defenders of the NSA in this forum, but even I acknowledge that they've committed some illegal acts. How can you assert otherwise? Have you been following this story?

Are you talking about violations by individuals, like abusing the system to spy on an ex, or are you talking about programs - the meat of what he disclosed?

For me, mostly the former- though you'll certainly get an argument on the latter as well; I'm just not the right person to make it.But they've also lied to Congress and to the public, and that is surely against the law.

Hardly whistleblowing material. There are perfectly workable channels in place for reporting abuse.

As for lying to Congress, that's totally immaterial to his crimes. He doesn't get a break because NSA predictably played duck and cover for a while.

 

[timschochet]

Not a hero or a traitor, just an idiot

I won't listen to a thing he says but you can't avoid some headlines, and he's even dumber than I thought if he thinks he's going to somehow be forgiven for running into the arms of a hostile regime.

The stuff he leaked all you outraged people should have known about ten years ago when the Patriot Act was in the news. Back then, we were all for whatever it takes to keep the terrorists at bay. The NSA's done nothing illegal, which makes him not a whistleblower. Technically, it makes him a traitor, though I've decided to just stick with idiot, since he kind of (only kind of) meant well.

I've been one of the biggest defenders of the NSA in this forum, but even I acknowledge that they've committed some illegal acts. How can you assert otherwise? Have you been following this story?

Are you talking about violations by individuals, like abusing the system to spy on an ex, or are you talking about programs - the meat of what he disclosed?

For me, mostly the former- though you'll certainly get an argument on the latter as well; I'm just not the right person to make it.But they've also lied to Congress and to the public, and that is surely against the law.

Hardly whistleblowing material. There are perfectly workable channels in place for reporting abuse.

As for lying to Congress, that's totally immaterial to his crimes. He doesn't get a break because NSA predictably played duck and cover for a while.

Perhaps, but that's not the point. You wrote that the NSA has broken no laws. That's what I was responding to.

 

[Steed]

I don't what he is but I am very smart............he comes off way too smooth, not like he has been coached, but that he has been doing this a long time.

This is kinda the vibe I got as well, came across almost too well if that makes sense...and I say that as a strong supporter of him. I dunno what to make of it, not trying to insinuate anything other than his presentation was way better than I expected. It's a weak argument, but he will get criticized for being "too rehearsed". My assumption is that he feels very strongly about what he did (punted a nice life away for it) and has had ample time to prepare for this. I am sure the relationship with a journalist like Greenwald helps as well.

I watched the webcast that Brian Williams did after and the panel seemed pretty biased against Snowden (former government officials). I felt the interview with Snowden itself was really well done, Williams did a nice job of asking good questions and getting out of the way without pushing an agenda.

I think the Williams did okay...he was not smart enough to compete with Snow..........no actor can do a better job then Snow did. For as much #### as he is in, no sweat what so ever.

He doesn't come off smooth in the sense that he's hiding something. He comes off smooth because he's highly intelligent and has done a nice job articulating his thought process. One example was when Williams asked why he wouldn't come back to "face the music". What few people realize is he would be prosecuted by a secret court and not allowed to present most of his arguements. That's not justice, that would be a dog-n-pony show.

It was actually entertaining watching Williams try and corner him to no avail.

 

[timschochet]

Last night Snowden said that sometimes you have to break the law to do the right thing. This hole self-serving, he's absolutely right. But the problem is, how do we know when it's appropriate to do so? We celebrate Rosa Parks for breaking the law, but that's only in retrospect.

 

[avoiding injuries]

I'm warming to him. I used to be 90-10 that he was a traitor. I'm probably 50-50 now.

 

[timschochet]

John Kerry brought up Daniel Ellsberg and said that Snowden is a coward for not staying here and defending himself in the courts.

 

[avoiding injuries]

I think Snowden has played this pretty well. Public support is gaining for him. Had he stayed, it wouldn't have ended well for him.

 

[JZilla]

Not a hero or a traitor, just an idiot

I won't listen to a thing he says but you can't avoid some headlines, and he's even dumber than I thought if he thinks he's going to somehow be forgiven for running into the arms of a hostile regime.

The stuff he leaked all you outraged people should have known about ten years ago when the Patriot Act was in the news. Back then, we were all for whatever it takes to keep the terrorists at bay. The NSA's done nothing illegal, which makes him not a whistleblower. Technically, it makes him a traitor, though I've decided to just stick with idiot, since he kind of (only kind of) meant well.

I've been one of the biggest defenders of the NSA in this forum, but even I acknowledge that they've committed some illegal acts. How can you assert otherwise? Have you been following this story?

Are you talking about violations by individuals, like abusing the system to spy on an ex, or are you talking about programs - the meat of what he disclosed?

For me, mostly the former- though you'll certainly get an argument on the latter as well; I'm just not the right person to make it.But they've also lied to Congress and to the public, and that is surely against the law.

Hardly whistleblowing material. There are perfectly workable channels in place for reporting abuse.

As for lying to Congress, that's totally immaterial to his crimes. He doesn't get a break because NSA predictably played duck and cover for a while.

Perhaps, but that's not the point. You wrote that the NSA has broken no laws. That's what I was responding to.

I don't consider the actions of individuals breaking NSA's laws to constitute the NSA breaking laws

 

[Norman Paperman]

Last night Snowden said that sometimes you have to break the law to do the right thing. This hole self-serving, he's absolutely right. But the problem is, how do we know when it's appropriate to do so? We celebrate Rosa Parks for breaking the law, but that's only in retrospect.

Exactly, at the time she was just another uppity woman who did not know her place, right Tim?

As with life, the winners get to write the history books, so the American Revolution was won by patriots, as opposed to England putting down a rebel insurgency had it gone the other way. One man's terrorist, is another man's freedom fighter.

Its too early to say how Snowden will be judged.

 

[mcintyre1]

Not a hero or a traitor, just an idiot

I won't listen to a thing he says but you can't avoid some headlines, and he's even dumber than I thought if he thinks he's going to somehow be forgiven for running into the arms of a hostile regime.

The stuff he leaked all you outraged people should have known about ten years ago when the Patriot Act was in the news. Back then, we were all for whatever it takes to keep the terrorists at bay. The NSA's done nothing illegal, which makes him not a whistleblower. Technically, it makes him a traitor, though I've decided to just stick with idiot, since he kind of (only kind of) meant well.

I've been one of the biggest defenders of the NSA in this forum, but even I acknowledge that they've committed some illegal acts. How can you assert otherwise? Have you been following this story?

Are you talking about violations by individuals, like abusing the system to spy on an ex, or are you talking about programs - the meat of what he disclosed?

For me, mostly the former- though you'll certainly get an argument on the latter as well; I'm just not the right person to make it.But they've also lied to Congress and to the public, and that is surely against the law.

Hardly whistleblowing material. There are perfectly workable channels in place for reporting abuse.

As for lying to Congress, that's totally immaterial to his crimes. He doesn't get a break because NSA predictably played duck and cover for a while.

You need to watch the Frontline series on this whole fiasco. He saw how ineffective previous attempted NSA whistleblowers had been, and how they'd been ruined by the Bush administration and discredited because they had no proof. Snowden is hardly the first person to claim the existence of these programs, he's just the first one to take evidence with him. Dude's a hero, and people like you that are fine shoving your head in the sand while your government strips your constitutional rights are the reason this country is where it is today.

 

[JZilla]

I think Snowden has played this pretty well. Public support is gaining for him. Had he stayed, it wouldn't have ended well for him.

I disagree. He's had the press on his side all along and that's all he would have needed. Public support would be even stronger IMO if he was in a jail cell at Quantico vs hiding out in a Moscow flat.

 

[JZilla]

Not a hero or a traitor, just an idiot

I won't listen to a thing he says but you can't avoid some headlines, and he's even dumber than I thought if he thinks he's going to somehow be forgiven for running into the arms of a hostile regime.

The stuff he leaked all you outraged people should have known about ten years ago when the Patriot Act was in the news. Back then, we were all for whatever it takes to keep the terrorists at bay. The NSA's done nothing illegal, which makes him not a whistleblower. Technically, it makes him a traitor, though I've decided to just stick with idiot, since he kind of (only kind of) meant well.

I've been one of the biggest defenders of the NSA in this forum, but even I acknowledge that they've committed some illegal acts. How can you assert otherwise? Have you been following this story?

Are you talking about violations by individuals, like abusing the system to spy on an ex, or are you talking about programs - the meat of what he disclosed?

For me, mostly the former- though you'll certainly get an argument on the latter as well; I'm just not the right person to make it.But they've also lied to Congress and to the public, and that is surely against the law.

Hardly whistleblowing material. There are perfectly workable channels in place for reporting abuse.

As for lying to Congress, that's totally immaterial to his crimes. He doesn't get a break because NSA predictably played duck and cover for a while.

You need to watch the Frontline series on this whole fiasco. He saw how ineffective previous attempted NSA whistleblowers had been, and how they'd been ruined by the Bush administration and discredited because they had no proof. Snowden is hardly the first person to claim the existence of these programs, he's just the first one to take evidence with him. Dude's a hero, and people like you that are fine shoving your head in the sand while your government strips your constitutional rights are the reason this country is where it is today.

Where my head is buried is really irrelevant. These programs were approved by our elected federal government. And the people did not bat an eye when they were passed. I was here in this very forum talking about it, back in the day. For most I'd say it seemed like a perfectly reasonable response to the overwhelming terrorist threat. Admittedly, it was a lot to wrap one's head around, but we definitely see what it all meant now.

Personally, I don't give a crap if some analyst is tracking my phone calls, or listening to Angela Merkel. But that's neither here nor there.

I think if he'd done the same thing and turned himself in, he'd have more support and even the possibility of a pardon by this administration. Not now.

 

[Ted Mullins]

I don't what he is but I am very smart............he comes off way too smooth, not like he has been coached, but that he has been doing this a long time.

This is kinda the vibe I got as well, came across almost too well if that makes sense...and I say that as a strong supporter of him. I dunno what to make of it, not trying to insinuate anything other than his presentation was way better than I expected. It's a weak argument, but he will get criticized for being "too rehearsed". My assumption is that he feels very strongly about what he did (punted a nice life away for it) and has had ample time to prepare for this. I am sure the relationship with a journalist like Greenwald helps as well.

I watched the webcast that Brian Williams did after and the panel seemed pretty biased against Snowden (former government officials). I felt the interview with Snowden itself was really well done, Williams did a nice job of asking good questions and getting out of the way without pushing an agenda.

I think the Williams did okay...he was not smart enough to compete with Snow..........no actor can do a better job then Snow did. For as much #### as he is in, no sweat what so ever.

He doesn't come off smooth in the sense that he's hiding something. He comes off smooth because he's highly intelligent and has done a nice job articulating his thought process. One example was when Williams asked why he wouldn't come back to "face the music". What few people realize is he would be prosecuted by a secret court and not allowed to present most of his arguements. That's not justice, that would be a dog-n-pony show.

It was actually entertaining watching Williams try and corner him to no avail.

Yeah, this makes sense to me. He's a smart dude and seems to feel pretty strongly about what he did, has access to someone like Greenwald to prep him for an interview like this, and has probably had all the time in the world to rehearse.

I actually thought Williams was fair, and I say that as someone who supports Snowden. I was just impressed with how Snowden managed to not come off defensive and to also seem genuinely respectful of the work the intelligence community does. He was not dismissive about it. Obviously I can't corroborate his story but he seems to be someone who wanted to dedicate his life to this kind of work, and was gravely disappointed when he saw the extent of what was going on. It seems like many of his supporters are more anti-surveillance than he is.

John Kerry brought up Daniel Ellsberg and said that Snowden is a coward for not staying here and defending himself in the courts.

I would have to go back and watch it again for the exact details, but Snowden addressed this. I do not think he qualifies for the Whistleblower protections, among other factors. He also said the current administration has been very hard on whistleblowers. I personally have a hard time believing he would get a fair trial - did Kerry's tone suggest that he wants him to get a fair hearing?

I posted a Youtube link on the last page or two with the full inteview. Without the commercials it is under 40 minutes. I thought it was a great watch and Snowden came off very well, but I am admittedly really biased in his favor.

 

[StrikeS2k]

Last night Snowden said that sometimes you have to break the law to do the right thing. This hole self-serving, he's absolutely right. But the problem is, how do we know when it's appropriate to do so? We celebrate Rosa Parks for breaking the law, but that's only in retrospect.

Hole? LOL. Anyways, you have stated that you think it's fine for Illegal Aliens to break the law because you feel the law is wrong. So you seem to have no problem defining when it's appropriate to do so. When it serves your worldview.......

 

[Nipsey]

These programs were approved by our elected federal government. And the people did not bat an eye when they were passed.

The public didn't bat an eye because it didn't have a clue what was really happening. We were deceived from day 1. I recommend watching that PBS doc It's an eye opener.

 

[Politician Spock]

Not a hero or a traitor, just an idiot

I won't listen to a thing he says but you can't avoid some headlines, and he's even dumber than I thought if he thinks he's going to somehow be forgiven for running into the arms of a hostile regime.

The stuff he leaked all you outraged people should have known about ten years ago when the Patriot Act was in the news. Back then, we were all for whatever it takes to keep the terrorists at bay. The NSA's done nothing illegal, which makes him not a whistleblower. Technically, it makes him a traitor, though I've decided to just stick with idiot, since he kind of (only kind of) meant well.

I've been one of the biggest defenders of the NSA in this forum, but even I acknowledge that they've committed some illegal acts. How can you assert otherwise? Have you been following this story?

Are you talking about violations by individuals, like abusing the system to spy on an ex, or are you talking about programs - the meat of what he disclosed?

For me, mostly the former- though you'll certainly get an argument on the latter as well; I'm just not the right person to make it.But they've also lied to Congress and to the public, and that is surely against the law.

Hardly whistleblowing material. There are perfectly workable channels in place for reporting abuse.

As for lying to Congress, that's totally immaterial to his crimes. He doesn't get a break because NSA predictably played duck and cover for a while.

You need to watch the Frontline series on this whole fiasco. He saw how ineffective previous attempted NSA whistleblowers had been, and how they'd been ruined by the Bush administration and discredited because they had no proof. Snowden is hardly the first person to claim the existence of these programs, he's just the first one to take evidence with him. Dude's a hero, and people like you that are fine shoving your head in the sand while your government strips your constitutional rights are the reason this country is where it is today.

Exactly. He's not the only one in government seeing everything that is wrong. He's the only one who was willing to give up his life to bring it to light. Everyone else has a spouse, kids, etc, etc... that they weren't willing to give up. That's why the government was able to go so far without being checked.

 

[Joe T]

Not a hero or a traitor, just an idiot

I won't listen to a thing he says but you can't avoid some headlines, and he's even dumber than I thought if he thinks he's going to somehow be forgiven for running into the arms of a hostile regime.

I don't get this. The only reason I can imagine not listening to the guy is fear.

Have you read the book of Mormon? Fear, or lack of interest?

I've given this dude enough of my time. If he had stayed home, stood his ground and faced the music, I'd probably give him a fairer shake. When you do something you know is illegal for some idealistic motive, don't just drop the bomb and run. Put your money where your mouth is. His press friends had everything from day one.. he held all the cards anyway. Nobody is going to shoot him

I just find it funny he seems to think it's a reasonable expectation after seeking asylum from Putin to come home to a hero's welcome. And I simply haven't been impressed by anything he's released.

For the people that did this prior to Snowden, it did not end well. Hard to blame him for not wanting what happened to others to happen to him.

 

[Joe T]

John Kerry brought up Daniel Ellsberg and said that Snowden is a coward for not staying here and defending himself in the courts.

John Kerry is a buffoon.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

As per usual, JZilla gets it.

 

[timschochet]

Last night Snowden said that sometimes you have to break the law to do the right thing. This hole self-serving, he's absolutely right. But the problem is, how do we know when it's appropriate to do so? We celebrate Rosa Parks for breaking the law, but that's only in retrospect.

Hole? LOL. Anyways, you have stated that you think it's fine for Illegal Aliens to break the law because you feel the law is wrong. So you seem to have no problem defining when it's appropriate to do so. When it serves your worldview.......

"hole" was from this stupid iPhone trying to correct spelling. It creates words. What I meant to say is while Snowden was being self serving, he was also correct. And you are correct that I can justify breaking the law when it satisfies my own views about injustice.

 

[Greggity]

John Kerry brought up Daniel Ellsberg and said that Snowden is a coward for not staying here and defending himself in the courts.

John Kerry is a buffoon.

Kerry telling anyone to "man up" makes me chuckle. That guy is a big dope!

 

[Doctor Detroit]

yeah - trust the government.

All these claims about endangering lives - very plausible, but not holding water. Yet the gov't pundits won't back up the continued claims.

You don't understand why they can't? Seriously?

Like you said in the other thread, you got sucked in.

You're citing absence of proof as proof. You've been sucked in.

I'm not citing a thing. What I'm saying is until we the "public" know where all the documents he took are, there is a reasonable assumption that he still holds documents that are damaging to the United States beyond Prism. Even what he's released so far has probably made those who aim to destroy us change their methods, I'm just being logical.

The fact he is sitting in Moscow waiting for this to play out also speaks volumes, the passport stuff is pure bs. What would be the difference in a South American country unfriendly with the U.S. taking him without a passport knowing what they were getting in the first place? Using that as an excuse for being "stuck" in Russia is convenient IMO.

If Snowden never gave any documents to our enemies, or nothing he's taken does damage to the national security apparatus, I'll apologize to him and send him an FTD bouquet. I'm not setting money aside for it, let's put it that way.

 

[fatness]

Not a hero or a traitor, just an idiot

I won't listen to a thing he says but you can't avoid some headlines, and he's even dumber than I thought if he thinks he's going to somehow be forgiven for running into the arms of a hostile regime.

I don't get this. The only reason I can imagine not listening to the guy is fear.

Have you read the book of Mormon? Fear, or lack of interest?

I haven't read the book or Mormon due to lack of interest. You're saying you won't listen to anything Snowden says out of a lack of interest? That's not credible. You're all over this topic denouncing him.

You won't get cooties listening to him.

 

[Politician Spock]

Not a hero or a traitor, just an idiot

I won't listen to a thing he says but you can't avoid some headlines, and he's even dumber than I thought if he thinks he's going to somehow be forgiven for running into the arms of a hostile regime.

I don't get this. The only reason I can imagine not listening to the guy is fear.

Have you read the book of Mormon? Fear, or lack of interest?

I haven't read the book or Mormon due to lack of interest. You're saying you won't listen to anything Snowden says out of a lack of interest? That's not credible. You're all over this topic denouncing him.

You won't get cooties listening to him.

No one saying what jzilla is saying has a lack of interest.

 

[JZilla]

I am intrigued by the situation but I have no further interest in what he has to say. There are plenty of criminals I'm not interested in listening to.

To be clear.. I read a few things he had to say early on, and that was enough. I get it.

 

[fatness]

Overall through 9 a.m. ET Thursday, 59% of Twitter users are calling Snowden a #Patriot versus 41% #Traitor.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/people-have-tweeted-snowden-traitor-or-patriot-n117096

The more this guy talks, the higher the % of "patriot" opinions will be. His detractors seem to only reply with insults, with "we have secret information you're not allowed to see that shows he's harming the country", or "he's in Russia". 2 of those ploys worked for Senator McCarthy but that was long ago and he was exposed as a buffoon.

 

[JZilla]

Overall through 9 a.m. ET Thursday, 59% of Twitter users are calling Snowden a #Patriot versus 41% #Traitor.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/people-have-tweeted-snowden-traitor-or-patriot-n117096

The more this guy talks, the higher the % of "patriot" opinions will be. His detractors seem to only reply with insults, with "we have secret information you're not allowed to see that shows he's harming the country", or "he's in Russia". 2 of those ploys worked for Senator McCarthy but that was long ago and he was exposed as a buffoon.

Seems to me like you and a lot of other people are late to the game.. that or he's changed his story, because he's been talking since last year.

 

[timschochet]

Overall through 9 a.m. ET Thursday, 59% of Twitter users are calling Snowden a #Patriot versus 41% #Traitor.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/people-have-tweeted-snowden-traitor-or-patriot-n117096

The more this guy talks, the higher the % of "patriot" opinions will be. His detractors seem to only reply with insults, with "we have secret information you're not allowed to see that shows he's harming the country", or "he's in Russia". 2 of those ploys worked for Senator McCarthy but that was long ago and he was exposed as a buffoon.

I don't agree with your analogy, and I don't believe the criticism of Snowden is as simple as you paint. The thing about Snowden that most people will remember is this: he left.

Let me give you another example: in the early 1960s, the two most famous leaders of the ANC in South Africa were Oliver Tambo and Nelson Mandela. Tambo chose to go into exile and lead the ANC from abroad. Mandela chose to go to prison for his beliefs. Which one is remembered more today? Which one of these guys became famous, and which one became a historical footnote?

 

[joffer]

Overall through 9 a.m. ET Thursday, 59% of Twitter users are calling Snowden a #Patriot versus 41% #Traitor.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/people-have-tweeted-snowden-traitor-or-patriot-n117096The more this guy talks, the higher the % of "patriot" opinions will be. His detractors seem to only reply with insults, with "we have secret information you're not allowed to see that shows he's harming the country", or "he's in Russia". 2 of those ploys worked for Senator McCarthy but that was long ago and he was exposed as a buffoon.

I don't agree with your analogy, and I don't believe the criticism of Snowden is as simple as you paint. The thing about Snowden that most people will remember is this: he left.Let me give you another example: in the early 1960s, the two most famous leaders of the ANC in South Africa were Oliver Tambo and Nelson Mandela. Tambo chose to go into exile and lead the ANC from abroad. Mandela chose to go to prison for his beliefs. Which one is remembered more today? Which one of these guys became famous, and which one became a historical footnote?

Minor difference: the internet

 

[The Commish]

Not a hero or a traitor, just an idiot

I won't listen to a thing he says but you can't avoid some headlines, and he's even dumber than I thought if he thinks he's going to somehow be forgiven for running into the arms of a hostile regime.

The stuff he leaked all you outraged people should have known about ten years ago when the Patriot Act was in the news. Back then, we were all for whatever it takes to keep the terrorists at bay. The NSA's done nothing illegal, which makes him not a whistleblower. Technically, it makes him a traitor, though I've decided to just stick with idiot, since he kind of (only kind of) meant well.

I've been one of the biggest defenders of the NSA in this forum, but even I acknowledge that they've committed some illegal acts. How can you assert otherwise? Have you been following this story?

Are you talking about violations by individuals, like abusing the system to spy on an ex, or are you talking about programs - the meat of what he disclosed?

For me, mostly the former- though you'll certainly get an argument on the latter as well; I'm just not the right person to make it.But they've also lied to Congress and to the public, and that is surely against the law.

Hardly whistleblowing material. There are perfectly workable channels in place for reporting abuse.

As for lying to Congress, that's totally immaterial to his crimes. He doesn't get a break because NSA predictably played duck and cover for a while.

Perhaps, but that's not the point. You wrote that the NSA has broken no laws. That's what I was responding to.

I don't consider the actions of individuals breaking NSA's laws to constitute the NSA breaking laws

Right....organizations shouldn't be held accountable for the actions of it's members. It's our faults we didn't know we were being lied to. Shame on us!

 

[timschochet]

Overall through 9 a.m. ET Thursday, 59% of Twitter users are calling Snowden a #Patriot versus 41% #Traitor.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/people-have-tweeted-snowden-traitor-or-patriot-n117096The more this guy talks, the higher the % of "patriot" opinions will be. His detractors seem to only reply with insults, with "we have secret information you're not allowed to see that shows he's harming the country", or "he's in Russia". 2 of those ploys worked for Senator McCarthy but that was long ago and he was exposed as a buffoon.

I don't agree with your analogy, and I don't believe the criticism of Snowden is as simple as you paint. The thing about Snowden that most people will remember is this: he left.Let me give you another example: in the early 1960s, the two most famous leaders of the ANC in South Africa were Oliver Tambo and Nelson Mandela. Tambo chose to go into exile and lead the ANC from abroad. Mandela chose to go to prison for his beliefs. Which one is remembered more today? Which one of these guys became famous, and which one became a historical footnote?

Minor difference: the internet

But my point is, no matter how justifiable a reason Snowden might have had for fleeing the United States, ultimately few people are ever going to see him as a hero. Heroes don't run away.

 

[rockaction]

Oh, the left wants this guy. They want your take on Canadian pulp. Forget you if you don't get the reference.

 

[timschochet]

Oh, the left wants this guy. They want your take on Canadian pulp. Forget you if you don't get the reference.

There's plenty of people on the right who love Snowden as well. And some on the left who dislike him. It's not a partisan issue so much as it's an "establishment vs. outsiders" thing.

 

[Greggity]

Overall through 9 a.m. ET Thursday, 59% of Twitter users are calling Snowden a #Patriot versus 41% #Traitor.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/people-have-tweeted-snowden-traitor-or-patriot-n117096The more this guy talks, the higher the % of "patriot" opinions will be. His detractors seem to only reply with insults, with "we have secret information you're not allowed to see that shows he's harming the country", or "he's in Russia". 2 of those ploys worked for Senator McCarthy but that was long ago and he was exposed as a buffoon.

I don't agree with your analogy, and I don't believe the criticism of Snowden is as simple as you paint. The thing about Snowden that most people will remember is this: he left.Let me give you another example: in the early 1960s, the two most famous leaders of the ANC in South Africa were Oliver Tambo and Nelson Mandela. Tambo chose to go into exile and lead the ANC from abroad. Mandela chose to go to prison for his beliefs. Which one is remembered more today? Which one of these guys became famous, and which one became a historical footnote?

Minor difference: the internet

But my point is, no matter how justifiable a reason Snowden might have had for fleeing the United States, ultimately few people are ever going to see him as a hero. Heroes don't run away.

They do in todays crooked as hell America....

 

[rockaction]

Oh, the left wants this guy. They want your take on Canadian pulp. Forget you if you don't get the reference.

There's plenty of people on the right who love Snowden as well. And some on the left who dislike him. It's not a partisan issue so much as it's an "establishment vs. outsiders" thing.

By "wanted," I meant jail "wanted." Not very good on my part. And this seems to be a bi-partisan issue in every respect.

 

[Politician Spock]

Overall through 9 a.m. ET Thursday, 59% of Twitter users are calling Snowden a #Patriot versus 41% #Traitor.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/people-have-tweeted-snowden-traitor-or-patriot-n117096The more this guy talks, the higher the % of "patriot" opinions will be. His detractors seem to only reply with insults, with "we have secret information you're not allowed to see that shows he's harming the country", or "he's in Russia". 2 of those ploys worked for Senator McCarthy but that was long ago and he was exposed as a buffoon.

I don't agree with your analogy, and I don't believe the criticism of Snowden is as simple as you paint. The thing about Snowden that most people will remember is this: he left.Let me give you another example: in the early 1960s, the two most famous leaders of the ANC in South Africa were Oliver Tambo and Nelson Mandela. Tambo chose to go into exile and lead the ANC from abroad. Mandela chose to go to prison for his beliefs. Which one is remembered more today? Which one of these guys became famous, and which one became a historical footnote?

Minor difference: the internet

But my point is, no matter how justifiable a reason Snowden might have had for fleeing the United States, ultimately few people are ever going to see him as a hero. Heroes don't run away.

My understand is he was trying to let the media be the hero. I don't have a link, but I understood that the original intent was that he was going to be an unamed source. It wasn't until he met face to face with the media in Hong Kong that they decided he needed to be revealed.

 

[JZilla]

Not a hero or a traitor, just an idiot

I won't listen to a thing he says but you can't avoid some headlines, and he's even dumber than I thought if he thinks he's going to somehow be forgiven for running into the arms of a hostile regime.

The stuff he leaked all you outraged people should have known about ten years ago when the Patriot Act was in the news. Back then, we were all for whatever it takes to keep the terrorists at bay. The NSA's done nothing illegal, which makes him not a whistleblower. Technically, it makes him a traitor, though I've decided to just stick with idiot, since he kind of (only kind of) meant well.

I've been one of the biggest defenders of the NSA in this forum, but even I acknowledge that they've committed some illegal acts. How can you assert otherwise? Have you been following this story?

Are you talking about violations by individuals, like abusing the system to spy on an ex, or are you talking about programs - the meat of what he disclosed?

For me, mostly the former- though you'll certainly get an argument on the latter as well; I'm just not the right person to make it.But they've also lied to Congress and to the public, and that is surely against the law.

Hardly whistleblowing material. There are perfectly workable channels in place for reporting abuse.

As for lying to Congress, that's totally immaterial to his crimes. He doesn't get a break because NSA predictably played duck and cover for a while.

Perhaps, but that's not the point. You wrote that the NSA has broken no laws. That's what I was responding to.

I don't consider the actions of individuals breaking NSA's laws to constitute the NSA breaking laws

Right....organizations shouldn't be held accountable for the actions of it's members. It's our faults we didn't know we were being lied to. Shame on us!

I think you may have taken my post out of context here. I was speaking only to the one-off improper actions by specific employees, which Snowden could have easily reported up the chain and kept his job, life, etc. These are the only illegal acts I'm aware of from his reports.

 

[The Commish]

Not a hero or a traitor, just an idiot

I won't listen to a thing he says but you can't avoid some headlines, and he's even dumber than I thought if he thinks he's going to somehow be forgiven for running into the arms of a hostile regime.

The stuff he leaked all you outraged people should have known about ten years ago when the Patriot Act was in the news. Back then, we were all for whatever it takes to keep the terrorists at bay. The NSA's done nothing illegal, which makes him not a whistleblower. Technically, it makes him a traitor, though I've decided to just stick with idiot, since he kind of (only kind of) meant well.

I've been one of the biggest defenders of the NSA in this forum, but even I acknowledge that they've committed some illegal acts. How can you assert otherwise? Have you been following this story?

Are you talking about violations by individuals, like abusing the system to spy on an ex, or are you talking about programs - the meat of what he disclosed?

For me, mostly the former- though you'll certainly get an argument on the latter as well; I'm just not the right person to make it.But they've also lied to Congress and to the public, and that is surely against the law.

Hardly whistleblowing material. There are perfectly workable channels in place for reporting abuse.

As for lying to Congress, that's totally immaterial to his crimes. He doesn't get a break because NSA predictably played duck and cover for a while.

Perhaps, but that's not the point. You wrote that the NSA has broken no laws. That's what I was responding to.

I don't consider the actions of individuals breaking NSA's laws to constitute the NSA breaking laws

Right....organizations shouldn't be held accountable for the actions of it's members. It's our faults we didn't know we were being lied to. Shame on us!

I think you may have taken my post out of context here. I was speaking only to the one-off improper actions by specific employees, which Snowden could have easily reported up the chain and kept his job, life, etc. These are the only illegal acts I'm aware of from his reports.

What in the actions of our government leads you to believe this is remotely true? Sure, it's easy to say, and something we would like to believe, but I don't see any evidence that it's the case.

 

[JZilla]

What in the actions of our government leads you to believe this is remotely true? Sure, it's easy to say, and something we would like to believe, but I don't see any evidence that it's the case.

Well I used to work there so there is that

 

[The Commish]

What in the actions of our government leads you to believe this is remotely true? Sure, it's easy to say, and something we would like to believe, but I don't see any evidence that it's the case.

Well I used to work there so there is that

"there" is where exactly? NSA?

 

[JZilla]

What in the actions of our government leads you to believe this is remotely true? Sure, it's easy to say, and something we would like to believe, but I don't see any evidence that it's the case.

Well I used to work there so there is that

"there" is where exactly? NSA?

You think there are tens of thousands of people conspiring against you? These are regular people with regular jobs and a regular chain of leadership and quality control and reporting of any form of abuse is constantly encouraged, just like anywhere else. He only threw crap like that in to add a little more color. Because leaking a bunch of Congressionally approved activities and running to Putin is a pretty ##### move on its own.