Edward Snowden poll (5/20/14): Hero or Traitor? (1 Viewer)

[jonessed]

It appears someone went off the deep end.

 

[Politician Spock]

I served my country government for twenty years

What's the difference?

Here in lies the problem.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

I served my country government for twenty years

What's the difference?

Here in lies the problem.

Maybe you'd like to explain it to me. Gonna be great watching you fumble this. Gllllll

 

[Politician Spock]

Tell me I didn't defend my country while you sit there in your easy chair talking #### you know nothing about. I tried to discuss this in a civil fashion last week and got nowhere, predictably. The administration you elected passed the laws that enabled these programs to be enacted, in front of everyone, and you only want to attack the people who are doing their jobs, because it's easier for you to coalesce in your tiny twisted brains. Yes we are all out to get you.

I'll be offline for a while because my daughter graduates high school today, then we have to initiate her into the new world order.. It's this whole big thing.

Once again, just because laws are passed doesn't mean they are constitutional laws. The judical system will only rule on the constitutionality of the law when the people can provide evidence of being harmed by the law. These laws HIDE all consequences of the law, inhibiting the system of checks and balances. It's a systemic flaw. Only now, thanks to Snowden, do the people have some evidence to bring the constitutionality of the law to question before the courts. Someone shouldn't have to throw away their life to make the system work. But the system is flawed right now.

 

[Politician Spock]

I served my country government for twenty years

What's the difference?

Here in lies the problem.

Maybe you'd like to explain it to me. Gonna be great watching you fumble this. Gllllll

The patriots protected their country by defending it against the government that was ruling it. Country /= government.

 

[The Commish]

It appears someone went off the deep end.

Like I said earlier...the martyr shtick isn't really becoming of him. I wasn't reading any of the other conversations he was having, but I don't believe anything I said would have pushed him off the deep end. Hopefully he understands the difference between the gov't over reach and military service. I'm pretty confident I'd buy him a beer just like I do just about every service man I see out and about. There's no way that I'd ever bag on an enlisted man for doing what was asked of him regardless of how off base his leadership was. It's something dear to me given my family's history with our military. That seems to be a different group of people, so perhaps I should ask this question because I really don't know the answer.

Do employees of the NSA, CIA DEA, etc consider themselves on par with our military vets when it comes to their jobs?

 

[timschochet]

1. Dr. Detroit and JZilla, thank you for helping to defend this country.

2. JZilla, congratulations to your daughter!

3. Some of you guys have NO class.

 

[Politician Spock]

Lot's of people playing the martyr card. Maybe it will work next time. Who will play it next?

 

[tom22406]

Well this took an interesting twist

 

[Politician Spock]

KAFFE: Did you order the code red violate the Constitution?

JESSEP: I did the job you send me to do.

KAFFE: Did you order the code red violate the Constitution?

JESSEP: YOU'RE ####### RIGHT I DID!!!

 

[Joe T]

a lot of anger in here.

 

[Joe T]

In any case, I was wrong, you were right, I apologize. ####.

This needs to be bumped more often.

 

[BassNBrew]

Wow, Zilla sure did have a melt down.

Honestly I have a lot more faith that gov't is working in our best interests when the employees carrying out the policy are level headed. When this type of anger and insults are throw around by the people in charge of watching out for are best interests, you have to wonder if it carries over to their everyday jobs.

 

[Slapdash]

Wow, Zilla sure did have a melt down.

Honestly I have a lot more faith that gov't is working in our best interests when the employees carrying out the policy are level headed. When this type of anger and insults are throw around by the people in charge of watching out for are best interests, you have to wonder if it carries over to their everyday jobs.

Not to mention it being a bad sign that people involved in these industries are taking it personally.

 

[Ted Mullins]

Is this a "happened on Obama's watch" thing? I'm having a hard time understanding the opinions in here. It would at least make a bit more sense if so.

For me personally, I have always felt that Obama takes a lot of heat for this when it was very much building up during the Bush administration. The increased prominence of internet activity (people going out of their way to put their information online) combined with the timing of the Snowden disclosures makes this look like it is all under Obama, when the framework of this seems to have been going on quite awhile. FWIW, that is not intended to give Obama a pass on this at all - he campaigned against a lot of this, and has done the exact opposite. I do believe that there are a lot of people who are against this surveillance now that would have little to no issue with the surveillance if there was a Republican president (not accusing anyone in this thread of that, not much clue of people's leanings in here).

I'd have to look more to get exact details, but I read recently that some of these mass surveillance programs were supposed to anonymize US citizens with the ability to get more details if there was a suspicious pattern of activity, but Cheney nixed the anonymization. It's mentioned here, though it doesn't specifically blame the change on Cheney - http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/05/23/110523fa_fact_mayer?currentPage=all

As an aside, NBC News released a poll (presumably related to the interview?) showing that Snowden has more opposition than support. Apparently 27% of respondents were unaware of the situation altogether.

http://news.yahoo.com/snowden-poll-oppose-leak-174819082.html

 

[jonessed]

Wow, Zilla sure did have a melt down.

Honestly I have a lot more faith that gov't is working in our best interests when the employees carrying out the policy are level headed. When this type of anger and insults are throw around by the people in charge of watching out for are best interests, you have to wonder if it carries over to their everyday jobs.

Not to mention it being a bad sign that people involved in these industries are taking it personally.

We have high level secret service agents going on hooker and booze binges while on duty. It's clearly not a stretch to point out that hubris can cloud judgement regardless of how important an individual's responsibilities.

Apparently the NSA even had a name for the process of tracking girlfriends/wives. Just awful.

 

[The Commish]

Wow, Zilla sure did have a melt down.

Honestly I have a lot more faith that gov't is working in our best interests when the employees carrying out the policy are level headed. When this type of anger and insults are throw around by the people in charge of watching out for are best interests, you have to wonder if it carries over to their everyday jobs.

Not to mention it being a bad sign that people involved in these industries are taking it personally.

People working at these agencies are in very stressful situations. There's no question about that. I'm not questioning individuals. It has nothing to do with JZilla, DD, whoever. It's the people well above their pay grade / classification that need to be kept in check. You're right...when so invested in these things it's easy to take them personally when the comments have nothing to do with them specifically.

 

[The Commish]

Is this a "happened on Obama's watch" thing? I'm having a hard time understanding the opinions in here. It would at least make a bit more sense if so.

For me personally, I have always felt that Obama takes a lot of heat for this when it was very much building up during the Bush administration. The increased prominence of internet activity (people going out of their way to put their information online) combined with the timing of the Snowden disclosures makes this look like it is all under Obama, when the framework of this seems to have been going on quite awhile. FWIW, that is not intended to give Obama a pass on this at all - he campaigned against a lot of this, and has done the exact opposite. I do believe that there are a lot of people who are against this surveillance now that would have little to no issue with the surveillance if there was a Republican president (not accusing anyone in this thread of that, not much clue of people's leanings in here).

I'd have to look more to get exact details, but I read recently that some of these mass surveillance programs were supposed to anonymize US citizens with the ability to get more details if there was a suspicious pattern of activity, but Cheney nixed the anonymization. It's mentioned here, though it doesn't specifically blame the change on Cheney - http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/05/23/110523fa_fact_mayer?currentPage=all

As an aside, NBC News released a poll (presumably related to the interview?) showing that Snowden has more opposition than support. Apparently 27% of respondents were unaware of the situation altogether.

http://news.yahoo.com/snowden-poll-oppose-leak-174819082.html

Gov't overreach issues have existed forever and treating our vets like #### have existed forever. This isn't something that's just crept up in the last couple decades.

 

[Slapdash]

Wow, Zilla sure did have a melt down.

Honestly I have a lot more faith that gov't is working in our best interests when the employees carrying out the policy are level headed. When this type of anger and insults are throw around by the people in charge of watching out for are best interests, you have to wonder if it carries over to their everyday jobs.

Not to mention it being a bad sign that people involved in these industries are taking it personally.

People working at these agencies are in very stressful situations. There's no question about that. I'm not questioning individuals. It has nothing to do with JZilla, DD, whoever. It's the people well above their pay grade / classification that need to be kept in check. You're right...when so invested in these things it's easy to take them personally when the comments have nothing to do with them specifically.

Given that we also work in very unpopular fields, I don't get why people would take on stress relating to their jobs due to criticism of certain programs and practices their organizations are involved in. Unless they are personally pushing the envelope for things like violating privacy or defrauding people.

 

[The Commish]

Wow, Zilla sure did have a melt down.

Honestly I have a lot more faith that gov't is working in our best interests when the employees carrying out the policy are level headed. When this type of anger and insults are throw around by the people in charge of watching out for are best interests, you have to wonder if it carries over to their everyday jobs.

Not to mention it being a bad sign that people involved in these industries are taking it personally.

People working at these agencies are in very stressful situations. There's no question about that. I'm not questioning individuals. It has nothing to do with JZilla, DD, whoever. It's the people well above their pay grade / classification that need to be kept in check. You're right...when so invested in these things it's easy to take them personally when the comments have nothing to do with them specifically.

Given that we also work in very unpopular fields, I don't get why people would take on stress relating to their jobs due to criticism of certain programs and practices their organizations are involved in. Unless they are personally pushing the envelope for things like violating privacy or defrauding people.

For a lot of folks, it becomes their identity. People I work with go ballistic when our security apps are taken to task or something is leaked. It's "theirs" and they don't like seeing it attacked.

 

[Short Corner]

I served my country government for twenty years

What's the difference?

wow

 

[Doctor Detroit]

I served my country government for twenty years

What's the difference?

wow

Wow what? So your shark pool persona isn't just shtick is it?

 

[Hipple II]

I served my country government for twenty years

What's the difference?

wow

Big ####### difference. In one case you could be a meter maid or a stupid bureacrat doing squat .sorry, working at the department of watershed management doesn't count as 'serving your country'. You justt have an usually overpaid & underworked job that it is hard to get fired from. That is a far cry from the men and women who put their lives on the line daily. So since the post office went private..I'm gonna reserve this for armed forces/secret service etc. But I'm not reading this whole thread. Snowden is a hero. easy call. Whistleblowers always get bastardized and have spin campaigns working against them by the powerful/guilty. But then they usually get paid. Though I imagine Snowden can make money and is a hero in most countries on Earth and with most Americans too. This will be looked back on like watergate (especially since it snuck around and violated all of the post watergate laws dsigned to stop this kind of abuse of power by the governement.I might backtrack for the Zilla eggspolsion. Anyone link the post?

 

[Hipple II]

welcome to 1984

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/01/us/nsa-collecting-millions-of-faces-from-web-images.html?_r=2

NSA is collecting millions of images from the web

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=707298&st=0&p=16868671

The National Security Agency is harvesting huge numbers of images of people from communications that it intercepts through its global surveillance operations for use in sophisticated facial recognition programs, according to top-secret documents.

 

[Slapdash]

welcome to 1984

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/01/us/nsa-collecting-millions-of-faces-from-web-images.html?_r=2

NSA is collecting millions of images from the web

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=707298&st=0&p=16868671

The National Security Agency is harvesting huge numbers of images of people from communications that it intercepts through its global surveillance operations for use in sophisticated facial recognition programs, according to top-secret documents.

Oh dear, I'm afraid you just set off the Tim-Signal

 

[JZilla]

Wow, Zilla sure did have a melt down.

Honestly I have a lot more faith that gov't is working in our best interests when the employees carrying out the policy are level headed. When this type of anger and insults are throw around by the people in charge of watching out for are best interests, you have to wonder if it carries over to their everyday jobs.

Not to mention it being a bad sign that people involved in these industries are taking it personally.

Sorry, I don't appreciate dittohead couch potatoes telling me where my or my brothers' loyalties lie. I put my ### on the line and it wasn't about "the government." But take my reaction however you like, your minds are all made up. Again, I spent a full day trying to discuss this in a civil fashion and you fruitcakes just keep singing the same tune. You have no interest in looking at this situation objectively, only from the standpoint of your own paranoid worldview. And from where I stand, I find some of your loyalties highly questionable.

Call it a meltdown, or "martyr" shtick if it makes you feel better, that doesn't bother me. I'm just telling it like I see it.

 

[Freelove]

We should all take loyalty oaths.

 

[Slapdash]

Wow, Zilla sure did have a melt down.

Honestly I have a lot more faith that gov't is working in our best interests when the employees carrying out the policy are level headed. When this type of anger and insults are throw around by the people in charge of watching out for are best interests, you have to wonder if it carries over to their everyday jobs.

Not to mention it being a bad sign that people involved in these industries are taking it personally.

Sorry, I don't appreciate dittohead couch potatoes telling me where my or my brothers' loyalties lie. I put my ### on the line and it wasn't about "the government." But take my reaction however you like, your minds are all made up. Again, I spent a full day trying to discuss this in a civil fashion and you fruitcakes just keep singing the same tune. You have no interest in looking at this situation objectively, only from the standpoint of your own paranoid worldview. And from where I stand, I find some of your loyalties highly questionable.

Call it a meltdown, or "martyr" shtick if it makes you feel better, that doesn't bother me. I'm just telling it like I see it.

Obviously something is bothering you, particularly if you want to sling insults around at me unprovoked like this.

 

[Fennis]

We should all take loyalty oaths.

I

further swear (or affirm) that I do not advise, advocate or teach, and have not within the period beginning five (5) years prior to the effective date of the ordinance requiring the making of this oath or affirmation, advised, advocated or taught, the overthrow by force, violence or other unlawful means, of the FFA or of the Shark Pool and that I am not now and have not, within said period, been or become a member of or affiliated with any group, society, association, organization or party which advises, advocates or teaches, or has, within said period, advised, advocated or taught, the overthrow by force, violence or other unlawful means of the FFA, or of the Shark Pool. I further swear (or affirm) that I will not, while I am in the service of the FBGs advise, advocate or teach, or be or become a member of or affiliated with any group, association, society, organization or party which advises, advocates or teaches, or has within said period, advised, advocated or taught, the overthrow by force, violence or other unlawful means, of the FFA or of the Shark Pool.

 

[JZilla]

Wow, Zilla sure did have a melt down.

Honestly I have a lot more faith that gov't is working in our best interests when the employees carrying out the policy are level headed. When this type of anger and insults are throw around by the people in charge of watching out for are best interests, you have to wonder if it carries over to their everyday jobs.

Not to mention it being a bad sign that people involved in these industries are taking it personally.

Sorry, I don't appreciate dittohead couch potatoes telling me where my or my brothers' loyalties lie. I put my ### on the line and it wasn't about "the government." But take my reaction however you like, your minds are all made up. Again, I spent a full day trying to discuss this in a civil fashion and you fruitcakes just keep singing the same tune. You have no interest in looking at this situation objectively, only from the standpoint of your own paranoid worldview. And from where I stand, I find some of your loyalties highly questionable.

Call it a meltdown, or "martyr" shtick if it makes you feel better, that doesn't bother me. I'm just telling it like I see it.

Obviously something is bothering you, particularly if you want to sling insults around at me unprovoked like this.

I think it's pretty clear what bothered me, and it was a blanket statement directed at Dr D but I think enough of you guys are standing behind it that I don't feel too bad about flinging some mud back at all of you collectively. I'm sure you can take it, after all it's just the internet. Feel free to address the substance of what I'm saying rather than my perceived emotions.

Would you agree that expressing a general desire to subvert the US government could be taken as a treasonous stance?

 

[Joe T]

Would you agree that expressing a general desire to subvert the US government could be taken as a treasonous stance?

Of course.

Would you agree that what the NSA is doing is at a minimum a gray area of the 4th Amendment of the constitution?

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized"

And because of this gray area, there should be an open discussion in either Congress or the courts to verify what they are doing is legal?

 

[The Commish]

I think it's pretty clear what bothered me, and it was a blanket statement directed at Dr D but I think enough of you guys are standing behind it that I don't feel too bad about flinging some mud back at all of you collectively. I'm sure you can take it, after all it's just the internet. Feel free to address the substance of what I'm saying rather than my perceived emotions.

Would you agree that expressing a general desire to subvert the US government could be taken as a treasonous stance?

Then how about lashing out at whomever was making the comments rather than everyone who dares ask a question to gain insight? I don't have a real stance on whether this guy was a hero, terrorist or martian. That misses the issue of the whole incident IMO. There's no reason for anyone to be calling anyone else names or lumping everyone who doesn't fit your world view into a bucket as if they are all equal.

 

[JZilla]

Would you agree that expressing a general desire to subvert the US government could be taken as a treasonous stance?

Of course.

Would you agree that what the NSA is doing is at a minimum a gray area of the 4th Amendment of the constitution?

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized"

And because of this gray area, there should be an open discussion in either Congress or the courts to verify what they are doing is legal?

I do agree that there should be a bigger discussion about the laws that led to these programs being enacted, and I've said that. I've also said there's a chance Ed Snowden comes out of this whole thing looking great, IF these programs are indeed deemed unconstitutional after due process. What constitutes reasonable and unreasonable is really what we're talking about here.

But as of now the NSA is only carrying out what its been tasked to do by the legislature and the top brass at the DoD. The tens of thousands of good people who work at the NSA are not doing anything wrong. The NSA as it stands has not done anything wrong.

And yes, as crazy as it sounds I do believe that by and large the federal government does have the people's best interests at heart, even in the case of Cheney-inspired programs like this one. I understand why they are there, and frankly I'm OK with them, even understanding that their "constitutionality" is arguable.

Seriously I'd let all of you listen to every stupid conversation I've ever had if it saved a few thousand lives.

 

[JZilla]

I think it's pretty clear what bothered me, and it was a blanket statement directed at Dr D but I think enough of you guys are standing behind it that I don't feel too bad about flinging some mud back at all of you collectively. I'm sure you can take it, after all it's just the internet. Feel free to address the substance of what I'm saying rather than my perceived emotions.

Would you agree that expressing a general desire to subvert the US government could be taken as a treasonous stance?

Then how about lashing out at whomever was making the comments rather than everyone who dares ask a question to gain insight? I don't have a real stance on whether this guy was a hero, terrorist or martian. That misses the issue of the whole incident IMO. There's no reason for anyone to be calling anyone else names or lumping everyone who doesn't fit your world view into a bucket as if they are all equal.

I think you're more sensi than I am even, you take umbrage with pretty much every little thing I say.

If it doesn't apply to you.. then it isn't intended for you.

 

[Slapdash]

Wow, Zilla sure did have a melt down.

Honestly I have a lot more faith that gov't is working in our best interests when the employees carrying out the policy are level headed. When this type of anger and insults are throw around by the people in charge of watching out for are best interests, you have to wonder if it carries over to their everyday jobs.

Not to mention it being a bad sign that people involved in these industries are taking it personally.

Sorry, I don't appreciate dittohead couch potatoes telling me where my or my brothers' loyalties lie. I put my ### on the line and it wasn't about "the government." But take my reaction however you like, your minds are all made up. Again, I spent a full day trying to discuss this in a civil fashion and you fruitcakes just keep singing the same tune. You have no interest in looking at this situation objectively, only from the standpoint of your own paranoid worldview. And from where I stand, I find some of your loyalties highly questionable.

Call it a meltdown, or "martyr" shtick if it makes you feel better, that doesn't bother me. I'm just telling it like I see it.

Obviously something is bothering you, particularly if you want to sling insults around at me unprovoked like this.

I think it's pretty clear what bothered me, and it was a blanket statement directed at Dr D but I think enough of you guys are standing behind it that I don't feel too bad about flinging some mud back at all of you collectively. I'm sure you can take it, after all it's just the internet. Feel free to address the substance of what I'm saying rather than my perceived emotions.

Would you agree that expressing a general desire to subvert the US government could be taken as a treasonous stance?

Maybe if you post something of substance again instead of misplaced put-downs.

 

[JZilla]

Wow, Zilla sure did have a melt down.

Honestly I have a lot more faith that gov't is working in our best interests when the employees carrying out the policy are level headed. When this type of anger and insults are throw around by the people in charge of watching out for are best interests, you have to wonder if it carries over to their everyday jobs.

Not to mention it being a bad sign that people involved in these industries are taking it personally.

Sorry, I don't appreciate dittohead couch potatoes telling me where my or my brothers' loyalties lie. I put my ### on the line and it wasn't about "the government." But take my reaction however you like, your minds are all made up. Again, I spent a full day trying to discuss this in a civil fashion and you fruitcakes just keep singing the same tune. You have no interest in looking at this situation objectively, only from the standpoint of your own paranoid worldview. And from where I stand, I find some of your loyalties highly questionable.

Call it a meltdown, or "martyr" shtick if it makes you feel better, that doesn't bother me. I'm just telling it like I see it.

Obviously something is bothering you, particularly if you want to sling insults around at me unprovoked like this.

I think it's pretty clear what bothered me, and it was a blanket statement directed at Dr D but I think enough of you guys are standing behind it that I don't feel too bad about flinging some mud back at all of you collectively. I'm sure you can take it, after all it's just the internet. Feel free to address the substance of what I'm saying rather than my perceived emotions.

Would you agree that expressing a general desire to subvert the US government could be taken as a treasonous stance?

Maybe if you post something of substance again instead of misplaced put-downs.

Are you saying I posted something of substance before?

I'll take it, my work here is done.

 

[timschochet]

Wow, Zilla sure did have a melt down.

Honestly I have a lot more faith that gov't is working in our best interests when the employees carrying out the policy are level headed. When this type of anger and insults are throw around by the people in charge of watching out for are best interests, you have to wonder if it carries over to their everyday jobs.

Not to mention it being a bad sign that people involved in these industries are taking it personally.

Sorry, I don't appreciate dittohead couch potatoes telling me where my or my brothers' loyalties lie. I put my ### on the line and it wasn't about "the government." But take my reaction however you like, your minds are all made up. Again, I spent a full day trying to discuss this in a civil fashion and you fruitcakes just keep singing the same tune. You have no interest in looking at this situation objectively, only from the standpoint of your own paranoid worldview. And from where I stand, I find some of your loyalties highly questionable.

Call it a meltdown, or "martyr" shtick if it makes you feel better, that doesn't bother me. I'm just telling it like I see it.

Obviously something is bothering you, particularly if you want to sling insults around at me unprovoked like this.

I think it's pretty clear what bothered me, and it was a blanket statement directed at Dr D but I think enough of you guys are standing behind it that I don't feel too bad about flinging some mud back at all of you collectively. I'm sure you can take it, after all it's just the internet. Feel free to address the substance of what I'm saying rather than my perceived emotions.

Would you agree that expressing a general desire to subvert the US government could be taken as a treasonous stance?

Maybe if you post something of substance again instead of misplaced put-downs.

LOL.

Tell me Slapdash, when I made similar arguments to JZilla in the other thread, and your response to me was "GFY", were you engaging in "misplaced put-downs"? Was something "clearly bothering you"?

 

[The Commish]

I think it's pretty clear what bothered me, and it was a blanket statement directed at Dr D but I think enough of you guys are standing behind it that I don't feel too bad about flinging some mud back at all of you collectively. I'm sure you can take it, after all it's just the internet. Feel free to address the substance of what I'm saying rather than my perceived emotions.

Would you agree that expressing a general desire to subvert the US government could be taken as a treasonous stance?

Then how about lashing out at whomever was making the comments rather than everyone who dares ask a question to gain insight? I don't have a real stance on whether this guy was a hero, terrorist or martian. That misses the issue of the whole incident IMO. There's no reason for anyone to be calling anyone else names or lumping everyone who doesn't fit your world view into a bucket as if they are all equal.

I think you're more sensi than I am even, you take umbrage with pretty much every little thing I say.

If it doesn't apply to you.. then it isn't intended for you.

I think you have the wrong person. I was asking you questions to gain knowledge. I wasn't attacking you or making assertions one way or the other about you. This post you quoted is the first bit of criticism of you other than suggesting that the martyr shtick wasn't appetizing at all. I'm fine with not asking any more questions and let you go about your business. Have a good one

ETA: For my general information....were you a serviceman for a period of time then off to the NSA? TIA

 

[Slapdash]

Maybe if you post something of substance again instead of misplaced put-downs.

LOL.

Tell me Slapdash, when I made similar arguments to JZilla in the other thread, and your response to me was "GFY", were you engaging in "misplaced put-downs"? Was something "clearly bothering you"?

Pretty sure I was directly insulting someone who couldn't make a post without making up things I said, so they weren't misplaced. The thing clearly bothering me was your terrible trolling. Look, here it is again.

*Not that anything needs to bother me to insult your awful postings.

 

[Slapdash]

Wow, Zilla sure did have a melt down.

Honestly I have a lot more faith that gov't is working in our best interests when the employees carrying out the policy are level headed. When this type of anger and insults are throw around by the people in charge of watching out for are best interests, you have to wonder if it carries over to their everyday jobs.

Not to mention it being a bad sign that people involved in these industries are taking it personally.

Sorry, I don't appreciate dittohead couch potatoes telling me where my or my brothers' loyalties lie. I put my ### on the line and it wasn't about "the government." But take my reaction however you like, your minds are all made up. Again, I spent a full day trying to discuss this in a civil fashion and you fruitcakes just keep singing the same tune. You have no interest in looking at this situation objectively, only from the standpoint of your own paranoid worldview. And from where I stand, I find some of your loyalties highly questionable.

Call it a meltdown, or "martyr" shtick if it makes you feel better, that doesn't bother me. I'm just telling it like I see it.

Obviously something is bothering you, particularly if you want to sling insults around at me unprovoked like this.

I think it's pretty clear what bothered me, and it was a blanket statement directed at Dr D but I think enough of you guys are standing behind it that I don't feel too bad about flinging some mud back at all of you collectively. I'm sure you can take it, after all it's just the internet. Feel free to address the substance of what I'm saying rather than my perceived emotions.

Would you agree that expressing a general desire to subvert the US government could be taken as a treasonous stance?

Maybe if you post something of substance again instead of misplaced put-downs.

Are you saying I posted something of substance before?

I'll take it, my work here is done.

At least comparatively

 

[JZilla]

I think it's pretty clear what bothered me, and it was a blanket statement directed at Dr D but I think enough of you guys are standing behind it that I don't feel too bad about flinging some mud back at all of you collectively. I'm sure you can take it, after all it's just the internet. Feel free to address the substance of what I'm saying rather than my perceived emotions.

Would you agree that expressing a general desire to subvert the US government could be taken as a treasonous stance?

Then how about lashing out at whomever was making the comments rather than everyone who dares ask a question to gain insight? I don't have a real stance on whether this guy was a hero, terrorist or martian. That misses the issue of the whole incident IMO. There's no reason for anyone to be calling anyone else names or lumping everyone who doesn't fit your world view into a bucket as if they are all equal.

I think you're more sensi than I am even, you take umbrage with pretty much every little thing I say.

If it doesn't apply to you.. then it isn't intended for you.

I think you have the wrong person. I was asking you questions to gain knowledge. I wasn't attacking you or making assertions one way or the other about you. This post you quoted is the first bit of criticism of you other than suggesting that the martyr shtick wasn't appetizing at all. I'm fine with not asking any more questions and let you go about your business. Have a good one

Well I'm not trying to be a martyr and I think you know that. I think you guys as a whole have a pretty rotten attitude about this. But I know I agree with you on some other stuff and you're a good guy and fellow South Carolinian. Sorry if I ticked you off in return, but I think as a group you all stood behind the statement of some of us serving the government ahead of the country.

 

[The Commish]

Would you agree that expressing a general desire to subvert the US government could be taken as a treasonous stance?

Of course.

Would you agree that what the NSA is doing is at a minimum a gray area of the 4th Amendment of the constitution?

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized"

And because of this gray area, there should be an open discussion in either Congress or the courts to verify what they are doing is legal?

I do agree that there should be a bigger discussion about the laws that led to these programs being enacted, and I've said that. I've also said there's a chance Ed Snowden comes out of this whole thing looking great, IF these programs are indeed deemed unconstitutional after due process. What constitutes reasonable and unreasonable is really what we're talking about here.

But as of now the NSA is only carrying out what its been tasked to do by the legislature and the top brass at the DoD. The tens of thousands of good people who work at the NSA are not doing anything wrong. The NSA as it stands has not done anything wrong.

And yes, as crazy as it sounds I do believe that by and large the federal government does have the people's best interests at heart, even in the case of Cheney-inspired programs like this one. I understand why they are there, and frankly I'm OK with them, even understanding that their "constitutionality" is arguable.

Seriously I'd let all of you listen to every stupid conversation I've ever had if it saved a few thousand lives.

This is something that we can work with. I understand completely that they aren't technically breaking the law, however, as others have pointed out it SEEMS like the laws themselves are unconstitutional. That's the rub that a lot of folks have. There is evidence coming out about these actions and it doesn't support the "there's nothing to see here" narrative. People are thankful that this info is coming out simply because we don't know what we don't know. To my knowledge no one here except the Snowden haters are attacking an individual. I doubt you'll get many here who disagree with anything bolded above.

 

[JZilla]

Would you agree that expressing a general desire to subvert the US government could be taken as a treasonous stance?

Of course.

Would you agree that what the NSA is doing is at a minimum a gray area of the 4th Amendment of the constitution?

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized"

And because of this gray area, there should be an open discussion in either Congress or the courts to verify what they are doing is legal?

I do agree that there should be a bigger discussion about the laws that led to these programs being enacted, and I've said that. I've also said there's a chance Ed Snowden comes out of this whole thing looking great, IF these programs are indeed deemed unconstitutional after due process. What constitutes reasonable and unreasonable is really what we're talking about here.

But as of now the NSA is only carrying out what its been tasked to do by the legislature and the top brass at the DoD. The tens of thousands of good people who work at the NSA are not doing anything wrong. The NSA as it stands has not done anything wrong.

And yes, as crazy as it sounds I do believe that by and large the federal government does have the people's best interests at heart, even in the case of Cheney-inspired programs like this one. I understand why they are there, and frankly I'm OK with them, even understanding that their "constitutionality" is arguable.

Seriously I'd let all of you listen to every stupid conversation I've ever had if it saved a few thousand lives.

This is something that we can work with. I understand completely that they aren't technically breaking the law, however, as others have pointed out it SEEMS like the laws themselves are unconstitutional. That's the rub that a lot of folks have. There is evidence coming out about these actions and it doesn't support the "there's nothing to see here" narrative. People are thankful that this info is coming out simply because we don't know what we don't know. To my knowledge no one here except the Snowden haters are attacking an individual. I doubt you'll get many here who disagree with anything bolded above.

I think there might be a smidge more paranoia than that but it's all good, and maybe an unrealistic expectation that the NSA should open its books to the entire world.

 

[The Commish]

I think it's pretty clear what bothered me, and it was a blanket statement directed at Dr D but I think enough of you guys are standing behind it that I don't feel too bad about flinging some mud back at all of you collectively. I'm sure you can take it, after all it's just the internet. Feel free to address the substance of what I'm saying rather than my perceived emotions.

Would you agree that expressing a general desire to subvert the US government could be taken as a treasonous stance?

Then how about lashing out at whomever was making the comments rather than everyone who dares ask a question to gain insight? I don't have a real stance on whether this guy was a hero, terrorist or martian. That misses the issue of the whole incident IMO. There's no reason for anyone to be calling anyone else names or lumping everyone who doesn't fit your world view into a bucket as if they are all equal.

I think you're more sensi than I am even, you take umbrage with pretty much every little thing I say.

If it doesn't apply to you.. then it isn't intended for you.

I think you have the wrong person. I was asking you questions to gain knowledge. I wasn't attacking you or making assertions one way or the other about you. This post you quoted is the first bit of criticism of you other than suggesting that the martyr shtick wasn't appetizing at all. I'm fine with not asking any more questions and let you go about your business. Have a good one

Well I'm not trying to be a martyr and I think you know that. I think you guys as a whole have a pretty rotten attitude about this. But I know I agree with you on some other stuff and you're a good guy and fellow South Carolinian. Sorry if I ticked you off in return, but I think as a group you all stood behind the statement of some of us serving the government ahead of the country.

You haven't ticked me off. I was trying to understand perspective. The only way I can do that is to ask questions. I'm not sure I've even given a full blown opinion on Snowden. I'm not sure I have one given I know very little about the details. However, when it comes to the details about the NSA collecting data unwarranted, I have a very strong opinion about that. That's all in the Verizon/NSA thread though.

 

[The Commish]

Would you agree that expressing a general desire to subvert the US government could be taken as a treasonous stance?

Of course.

Would you agree that what the NSA is doing is at a minimum a gray area of the 4th Amendment of the constitution?

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized"

And because of this gray area, there should be an open discussion in either Congress or the courts to verify what they are doing is legal?

I do agree that there should be a bigger discussion about the laws that led to these programs being enacted, and I've said that. I've also said there's a chance Ed Snowden comes out of this whole thing looking great, IF these programs are indeed deemed unconstitutional after due process. What constitutes reasonable and unreasonable is really what we're talking about here.

But as of now the NSA is only carrying out what its been tasked to do by the legislature and the top brass at the DoD. The tens of thousands of good people who work at the NSA are not doing anything wrong. The NSA as it stands has not done anything wrong.

And yes, as crazy as it sounds I do believe that by and large the federal government does have the people's best interests at heart, even in the case of Cheney-inspired programs like this one. I understand why they are there, and frankly I'm OK with them, even understanding that their "constitutionality" is arguable.

Seriously I'd let all of you listen to every stupid conversation I've ever had if it saved a few thousand lives.

This is something that we can work with. I understand completely that they aren't technically breaking the law, however, as others have pointed out it SEEMS like the laws themselves are unconstitutional. That's the rub that a lot of folks have. There is evidence coming out about these actions and it doesn't support the "there's nothing to see here" narrative. People are thankful that this info is coming out simply because we don't know what we don't know. To my knowledge no one here except the Snowden haters are attacking an individual. I doubt you'll get many here who disagree with anything bolded above.

I think there might be a smidge more paranoia than that but it's all good, and maybe an unrealistic expectation that the NSA should open its books to the entire world.

There's no question that I am pretty down on our government and it's motives across the board. Generally, I assume the worst and make them prove that's not the case. That's not to be mistaken with paranoia...at least in my case. I can take the steps necessary to make it difficult to get my information, but I don't. In the end, I don't care what information the gov't has on me....it's pretty boring stuff. This gets me in trouble with one side because I think it's a personal responsibility problem and if you're going to broadcast your business, you can't be mad at others for listening. I also understand that people aren't generally tech savvy enough to protect themselves from "spying" and that there should be legal limits on what these orgs can do without warrants. As such, I think there should be a legit investigation to see how we as citizens are being violated.

 

[JZilla]

Look I understand the complexities of this case and I haven't called Snowden a traitor. An idiot and a megalomaniac, perhaps. But it's not that hard to look at this whole situation back to where it started and direct your frustration at the higher levels of government that made it possible. It's cliche but the NSA is a military operation that is just, well, you know. They're built to look for needles in a haystack, and we're apparently the hay right now

 

[Slapdash]

Look I understand the complexities of this case and I haven't called Snowden a traitor. An idiot and a megalomaniac, perhaps. But it's not that hard to look at this whole situation back to where it started and direct your frustration at the higher levels of government that made it possible. It's cliche but the NSA is a military operation that is just, well, you know. They're built to look for needles in a haystack, and we're apparently the hay right now

Seems to me like what people doing.

And at Tim, #### that guy.

 

[JZilla]

Look I understand the complexities of this case and I haven't called Snowden a traitor. An idiot and a megalomaniac, perhaps. But it's not that hard to look at this whole situation back to where it started and direct your frustration at the higher levels of government that made it possible. It's cliche but the NSA is a military operation that is just, well, you know. They're built to look for needles in a haystack, and we're apparently the hay right now

Seems to me like what people doing.

I think I remember Ahrn placing his anger correctly, But Ed Snowden isn't fit to mop up **** Cheney's evil piss, never mind try to blow a whistle on him.

 

[Wilfredo Ledezma]

Would you agree that expressing a general desire to subvert the US government could be taken as a treasonous stance?

Of course.

Would you agree that what the NSA is doing is at a minimum a gray area of the 4th Amendment of the constitution?

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized"

And because of this gray area, there should be an open discussion in either Congress or the courts to verify what they are doing is legal?

I do agree that there should be a bigger discussion about the laws that led to these programs being enacted, and I've said that. I've also said there's a chance Ed Snowden comes out of this whole thing looking great, IF these programs are indeed deemed unconstitutional after due process. What constitutes reasonable and unreasonable is really what we're talking about here.

But as of now the NSA is only carrying out what its been tasked to do by the legislature and the top brass at the DoD. The tens of thousands of good people who work at the NSA are not doing anything wrong. The NSA as it stands has not done anything wrong.

And yes, as crazy as it sounds I do believe that by and large the federal government does have the people's best interests at heart, even in the case of Cheney-inspired programs like this one. I understand why they are there, and frankly I'm OK with them, even understanding that their "constitutionality" is arguable.

Seriously I'd let all of you listen to every stupid conversation I've ever had if it saved a few thousand lives.

whole lotta wrong in this post. You obviously are uninformed to say the NSA has done nothing wrong. There's a reason Alberto Gonzalez was both appointed to the AG and then dismissed from it. There's a reason that multiple NSA heads resigned rather than go forward with this. hell even staunch ### no friend to the left at all John Ashcroft tried to pull the plug, so they just circumvented the law and attacked him in his trauma center where he was at death's door. Thomas Drake? Nuff said... have you even watched the 3 hour PBS United States of Secrets? Until then you should probably stop posting in this thread, because otherwise it's 100x more useless than it usually is here.

 

[Slapdash]

Look I understand the complexities of this case and I haven't called Snowden a traitor. An idiot and a megalomaniac, perhaps. But it's not that hard to look at this whole situation back to where it started and direct your frustration at the higher levels of government that made it possible. It's cliche but the NSA is a military operation that is just, well, you know. They're built to look for needles in a haystack, and we're apparently the hay right now

Seems to me like what people doing.

I think I remember Ahrn placing his anger correctly, But Ed Snowden isn't fit to mop up **** Cheney's evil piss, never mind try to blow a whistle on him.

I think a lot of people here have been expressing anger about the politicians that got us into this mess for years. I've read it. Snowden has only revealed what we were all called paranoid for assuming.