What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Egypt (3 Viewers)

The Muslim Brotherhood from the Wiki:

The Society of the Muslim Brothers, often simply الإخوان Al-Ikhwān, The Brotherhood or MB) is an Islamist transnational movement and the largest political opposition organization in many Arab states.[1] The group is the world's oldest and largest Islamic political group,[1] and the "world's most influential Islamist movement."[2] It was founded in 1928 in Egypt by the schoolteacher Hassan al-Banna.

The Brotherhood's stated goal is to instill the Qur'an and Sunnah as the "sole reference point for ... ordering the life of the Muslim family, individual, community ... and state".[3] Since its inception in 1928 the movement has officially opposed violent means to achieve its goals,[4][5] with some exceptions such as in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict or to overthrow secular Ba'athist rule in Syria (see Hama massacre). This position has been questioned, particularly by the Egyptian government, which accused the group of a campaign of killings in Egypt after World War II.[6]

The Muslim Brotherhood is banned in Egypt, and members have been arrested for their participation in it.[7] As a means of circumventing the ban, supporters run for office as independents.[8]

Outside Egypt, the group's political activity has been described as evolving away from modernism and reformism towards a more traditional, "rightist conservative secularist" stance. For example, the Muslim Brotherhood party in Kuwait opposes suffrage for women.[9] The Brotherhood condemned terrorism and the 9/11 attacks,[10][11] but whether or not it has ties to terrorism is a matter of dispute.[12] Its position on violence has also caused disputes within the movement, with advocates of violence at times breaking away to form groups such as the Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya (The Islamic Group) and Al Takfir Wal Hijra (Excommunication and Migration).[13]

Among the Brotherhood's more influential members was Sayyid Qutb. Qutb was the author of one of Islamism's most important books, Milestones, which called for the restoration of Islam by re-establishing the Sharia and by using "physical power and Jihad for abolishing the organizations and authorities of the Jahili system, which he believed to include the entire Muslim world. The book also reveals that Qutb no longer held the Brotherhood's ideas and that he was closer to the ideas of Hizb ut-Tahrir, which is concluded in the introduction and dedication of the book"[14][15] While studying at university, Osama bin Laden claimed to have been influenced by the religious and political ideas of several professors with strong ties to the Muslim Brotherhood including both Sayyid Qutb and his brother Muhammad Qutb. However, once Al Qaeda was fully organized, they denounced the Muslim Brotherhood's reform through nonviolence and accused them of "betraying the cause of Islam and abandoning their 'jihad' in favour of forming political parties and supporting modern state institutions".[16][17]

The Brotherhood is financed by contributions from its members, who are required to allocate a portion of their income to the movement. Some of these contributions are from members who live in oil-rich countries.

Sounds pretty close to the goals of the Taliban to me... ;)

 
A couple things:

(1) Here is a link via which you can get daily update emails with synopses on what's happening where, foreign policy-wise. Full disclosure: there is a slight slant to the right for the website itself, but the daily emails are convenient, and don't appear to be slanted.

Following is are example blurbs from today's daily email:

Tunisia

A standoff between street protesters and the Tunisian authorities deepened on Wednesday as officials first promised and then postponed a reshuffling of the interim government that has been clinging to power since the ouster of the former dictator, Zine el-Abidine Ben Ali. – New York Times

Tunisia's interim government Wednesday issued arrest warrants for the country's deposed president and his entourage and launched a $350-million public spending program apparently aimed at countering demands for its leaders' dismissal. – Los Angeles Times

Tunisia plans to overhaul the lineup of its interim government on Thursday, a move expected to see key loyalists of ousted leader Zine al-Abidine Ben Ali step aside in a bid to end persistent protests. - Reuters

Josh Rogin reports: A top State Department official in Tunis pledged full American support for the Tunisian drive to hold free elections on Wednesday, but also sought to distance the U.S. position on Tunisia from other mass protests in the region, such as the ongoing unrest in Egypt. "What happened in Tunisia strikes me as uniquely Tunisian. That the events that took place here over the past few weeks derive from particularly Tunisian grievances, from Tunisian circumstances by the Tunisian people," Assistant Secretary of State for Near East Affairs Jeffrey Feltman said at a press conference. – The Cable

Middle East

Egypt

Sporadic anti-government protests continued across Egypt Thursday, with demonstrators facing off against police outside the lawyers' guild in central Cairo and activists reportedly setting fire to a police post in the eastern city of Suez. – Washington Post

Egyptian demonstrators extended their nationwide antigovernment rallies into a second day Wednesday in defiance of a security crackdown, deepening a conflict whose outcome has the potential to rattle regimes across the Middle East. – Wall Street Journal

The Obama administration intensified diplomatic pressure on Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak to initiate wide-ranging political overhauls, an indication the U.S. is trying to re-channel the spreading anger in the region. – Wall Street Journal

The Obama administration urged key Mideast ally Egypt to heed calls for political reform even as security forces tightened their grip on pockets of rebellion in the capital that persisted a day after unprecedented nationwide protests. – Los Angeles Times

For decades, Egypt’s authoritarian president, Hosni Mubarak, played a clever game with his political opponents. He tolerated a tiny and toothless opposition of liberal intellectuals whose vain electoral campaigns created the facade of a democratic process. And he demonized the outlawed Muslim Brotherhood as a group of violent extremists who posed a threat that he used to justify his police state. But this enduring and, many here say, all too comfortable relationship was upended this week by the emergence of an unpredictable third force, the leaderless tens of thousands of young Egyptians who turned out to demand an end to Mr. Mubarak’s 30-year rule. – New York Times

The Obama administration needs to “seize the moment” to grapple with the wave of anti-government protests sweeping through Egypt and other parts of the Middle East, several foreign policy scholars urged on Wednesday. - Politico

Egyptians who flooded the streets of Cairo this week were not only demanding an end to the 30-year rule of Hosni Mubarak. Their target was also to bring down the suspected president-in-waiting: Mr Mubarak’s son, Gamal. – Financial Times

Yasmine El-Rashidi has an eye-witness report on the protests in Egypt for the New York Review of Books blog.

Mohammed El-Baradei writes: How long this can go on, I don’t know. In Egypt, as in Tunisia, there are other forces than just the president and the people. The army has been quite neutral so far, and I would expect it to remain that way. The soldiers and officers are part of the Egyptian people. They know the frustrations. They want to protect the nation. But this week the Egyptian people broke the barrier of fear, and once that is broken, there is no stopping them. – The Daily Beast

Lee Smith writes: Egyptian sources are dismissing reports that Gamal Mubarak and his family have left Cairo for London. If those earlier accounts were not outright propaganda, they seem to have been based more on wishful thinking than reality.The Mubarak regime is not as brittle as that of Tunisia’s erstwhile president-for-life, Zine El Abidine Ben Ali, and right now seems to be in little danger of falling. However, it does seem to be the case that the protests erupting throughout Egypt’s major cities are less about President Hosni Mubarak’s 29-year-long reign than they are about the succession of the man who seems to be his chosen heir, his 47-year-old son Gamal. – The Weekly Standard Blog

Lebanon

Najib Mikati, a billionaire backed by Hezbollah to become prime minister of Lebanon, promised on Wednesday to forge good relations with the United States and declared that he would not interfere with an international tribunal expected to accuse members of Hezbollah of involvement in the assassination of a former prime minister. – New York Times

With a Hezbollah-backed politician poised to become Lebanon’s next prime minister, the Obama administration is facing a vexing question: should the United States continue military aid to a country that will soon be led by a group the U.S. considers to be a terrorist organization? – National Journal

Press advocacy groups have joined politicians and others in condemning Wednesday's attacks on journalists after a national "day of rage" organized by former prime minister and Washington ally Saad Hariri spiraled out of control. – Babylon and Beyond

Lebanon's prime minister designate Najib Mikati said he will seek to form a cabinet of technocrats if defeated rival Saad al-Hariri's supporters reject his call for them to join his government. - Reuters

Afghanistan

Afghan justice and security officials want to adopt the U.S. practice of detaining suspected insurgents indefinitely without trial, according to senior U.S. and Afghan officials involved in efforts to have the government in Kabul take control of detention operations in the country. – Washington Post

A key defendant in an Army war-crimes investigation into the grisly killings of unarmed Afghan civilians has signed a plea deal with military prosecutors and agreed to testify against other accused soldiers, according to Army officials and a source close to the case. – Washington Post

Afghan President Hamid Karzai opened the new session of parliament Wednesday with a speech that claimed unnamed foreigners - apparently Western diplomats - interfered with the September elections. – Washington Post

Analysis: The turnabout and the string of political miscalculations that led to it have left Mr. Karzai a diminished and more isolated leader, members of Parliament, Western diplomats and analysts say. At the very least, they say, the outcome seems certain to signal the beginning of a potentially more precarious period in Mr. Karzai’s relations with Afghanistan’s power brokers. – New York Times
Sign up for the daily emails if you wish -- public service announcement over.___________________________________________________________________

Now for the meat...

(2) 'The Corruption Game' by Juan Cole

The corruption game

By Juan Cole

Here's one obvious lesson of the Tunisian Revolution of 2011: paranoia about Muslim fundamentalist movements and terrorism is causing Washington to make bad choices that will ultimately harm American interests and standing abroad. United States State Department cable traffic from capitals throughout the Greater Middle East, made public thanks to WikiLeaks, shows that US policymakers have a detailed and profound picture of the depths of corruption and nepotism that prevail among some "allies" in the region.

The same cable traffic indicates that, in a cynical Great Power calculation, Washington continues to sacrifice the prospects of the region's youth on the altar of "security". It is now forgotten that America's biggest foreign policy headache, the Islamic Republic of Iran, arose in response to American backing for Mohammad Reza Pahlevi, the despised Shah who destroyed the Iranian left and centrist political parties, paving the way for the ayatollahs' takeover in 1979.

State Department cables published via WikiLeaks are remarkably revealing when it comes to the way Tunisian strongman Zine el-Abidine Ben Ali and his extended family (including his wife Leila's Trabelsi clan) fastened upon the Tunisian economy and sucked it dry. The riveting descriptions of US diplomats make the presidential "family" sound like True Blood's vampires overpowering Bontemps, Louisiana.

In July of 2009, for instance, the US ambassador dined with Nesrine Ben Ali el-Materi and Sakher el-Materi, the president's daughter and son-in-law, at their sumptuous mansion. Materi, who rose through nepotism to dominate Tunisia's media, provided a 12-course dinner with Kiwi juice - "not normally available here" - and "ice cream and frozen yoghurt he had flown in from Saint Tropez", all served by an enormous staff of well-paid servants. The ambassador remarked on the couple's pet tiger, "Pasha," which consumed "four chickens a day" at a time of extreme economic hardship for ordinary Tunisians.

Other cables detail the way the Ben Ali and Trabelsi clans engaged in a Tunisian version of insider trading, using their knowledge of the president's upcoming economic decisions to scarf up real estate and companies they knew would suddenly spike in value. In 2006, the US ambassador estimated that 50% of the economic elite of Tunisia was related by blood or marriage to the president, a degree of nepotism hard to match outside some of the Persian Gulf monarchies.

Despite full knowledge of the corruption and tyranny of the regime, the US Embassy concluded in July 2009:

Notwithstanding the frustrations of doing business here, we cannot write off Tunisia. We have too much at stake. We have an interest in preventing al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb and other extremist groups from establishing a foothold here. We have an interest in keeping the Tunisian military professional and neutral.

The notion that, if the US hadn't given the Tunisian government hundreds of millions of dollars in military aid over the past two and a half decades, while helping train its military and security forces, a shadowy fringe group calling itself "al-Qaeda in the Maghreb" might have established a "toehold" in the country was daft. Yet this became an all-weather, universal excuse for bad policy.In this regard, Tunisia has been the norm when it comes to American policy in the Muslim world. The George W Bush administration's firm support for Ben Ali makes especially heinous the suggestion of some neo-conservative pundits that Bush's use of democratization rhetoric for neo-imperialist purposes somehow inspired the workers and internet activists of Tunisia (none of whom ever referenced the despised former US president).

It would surely have been smarter for Washington to cut the Ben Ali regime off without a dime, at least militarily, and distance itself from his pack of jackals. The region is, of course, littered with dusty, creaking, now exceedingly nervous dictatorships in which government is theft. The US receives no real benefits from its damaging association with them.

No dominoes to fall

The Bush administration's deeply flawed, sometimes dishonest "war on terror" replayed the worst mistakes of Cold War policy. One of those errors involved recreating the so-called domino theory - the idea that the US had to make a stand in Vietnam, or else Indonesia, Thailand, Burma (Myanmar) and the rest of Asia, if not the world, would fall to communism. It wasn't true then - the Soviet Union was, at the time, less than two decades from collapsing - and it isn't applicable now in terms of al-Qaeda. Then and now, though, that domino theory prolonged the agony of ill-conceived wars.

Despite the Barack Obama administration's abandonment of the phrase "war on terror", the impulses encoded in it still powerfully shape Washington's policy-making, as well as its geopolitical fears and fantasies. It adds up to an absurdly modernized version of domino theory. This irrational fear that any small setback for the US in the Muslim world could lead straight to an Islamic caliphate lurks beneath many of Washington's pronouncements and much of its strategic planning.

A clear example can be seen in the embassy cable that acquiesced in Washington's backing of Ben Ali for fear of the insignificant and obscure "al-Qaeda in the Maghreb". Despite the scary name, this small group was not originally even related to Osama bin Laden's al-Qaeda, but rather grew out of the Algerian Muslim reformist movement called Salafism.

If the US stopped giving military aid to Ben Ali, it was implied, Bin Laden might suddenly be the caliph of Tunis. This version of the domino theory - a pretext for overlooking a culture of corruption, as well as human rights abuses against dissidents - has become so widespread as to make up the warp and woof of America's secret diplomatic messaging.

Sinking democracy in the name of the 'war on terror'

Take Algeria, for instance. American military assistance to neighboring Algeria has typically grown from nothing before September 11 to nearly US$1 million a year. It may be a small sum in aid terms, but it is rapidly increasing, and it supplements far more sizeable support from the French. It also involves substantial training for counterterrorism; that is, precisely the skills also needed to repress peaceful civilian protests.

Ironically, the Algerian generals who control the strings of power were the ones responsible for radicalizing the country's Muslim political party, the Islamic Salvation Front (FIS). Allowed to run for office in 1992, that party won an overwhelming majority in parliament. Shocked and dismayed, the generals abruptly abrogated the election results. We will never know if the FIS might have evolved into a parliamentary, democratic party, as later happened to the Justice and Development Party of Turkey, the leaders of which had been Muslim fundamentalists in the 1990s.

Angered at being deprived of the fruits of its victory, however, FIS supporters went on the offensive. Some were radicalized and formed an organization they called the Armed Islamic Group, which later became an al-Qaeda affiliate. (A member of this group, Ahmed Ressam, attempted to enter the US as part of the "millennial plot" to blow up Los Angeles International Airport, but was apprehended at the border.)

A bloody civil war then broke out in which the generals and the more secular politicians were the winners, though not before 150,000 Algerians died. As with Ben Ali in neighboring Tunisia, Paris and Washington consider President Abdel Aziz Bouteflika (elected in 1999) a secular rampart against the influence of radical Muslim fundamentalism in Algeria as well as among the Algerian-French population in France.

To outward appearances, in the first years of the 21st century, Algeria regained stability under Bouteflika and his military backers, and the violence subsided. Critics charged, however, that the president connived at legislative changes, making it possible for him to run for a third term, a decision that was bad for democracy. In the 2009 presidential election, he faced a weak field of rivals and his leading opponent was a woman from an obscure Trotskyite party.

Cables from the US Embassy (revealed again by WikiLeaks) reflected a profound unease with a growing culture of corruption and nepotism, even though it was not on a Tunisian scale. Last February, for example, ambassador David D Pearce reported that eight of the directors of the state oil company Sonatrach were under investigation for corruption. He added:

This scandal is the latest in a dramatically escalating series of investigations and prosecutions that we have seen since last year involving Algerian government ministries and public enterprises. Significantly, many of the ministries affected are headed by ministers considered close to Algerian President Bouteflika.

And this was nothing new. More than three years earlier, the embassy in Algiers was already sounding the alarm. Local observers, it reported to Washington, were depicting Bouteflika's brothers "Said and Abdallah, as being particularly rapacious". Corruption was spreading into an increasingly riven and contentious officer corps. Unemployment among youth was so bad that they were taking to the Mediterranean on rickety rafts in hopes of getting to Europe and finding jobs. And yet when you read the WikiLeaks cables you find no recommendations to stop supporting the Algerian government.As usual when Washington backs corrupt regimes in the name of its "war on terror", democracy suffers and things slowly deteriorate. Bouteflika's flawed elections which aimed only at ensuring his victory, for instance, actively discouraged moderate fundamentalists from participating and some observers now think that Algeria, already roiled by food riots, could face Tunisian-style popular turmoil. (It should be remembered, however, that the Algerian military and secret police, with years of grim civil-war experience behind them, are far more skilled at oppressive techniques of social control than the Tunisian army.)

Were oil-rich Algeria, a much bigger country than Tunisia, to become unstable, it would be a strategically more striking and even less predictable event. Blame would have to be laid not just at the feet of Bouteflika and his corrupt cronies, but at those of his foreign backers, deeply knowledgeable (as the WikiLeaks cables indicate) but set in their policy ways.

The Ben Alis of Central Asia

Nor is the problem confined to North Africa or even anxious US-backed autocrats in the Arab world. Take the natural gas and gold-rich Central Asian country of Uzbekistan with a population of about 27 million, whose corruption the US Embassy was cabling about as early as 2006.

The dictatorial but determinedly secular regime of President Islam Karimov was an early Bush administration ally in its "war on terror", quite happy to provide Washington with torture-inspired confessions from "al-Qaeda" operatives, most of whom, according to former British ambassador Craig Murray, were simply ordinary Uzbek dissidents. (Although Uzbeks have a Muslim cultural heritage, decades of Soviet rule left most of the population highly secularized, and except in the Farghana Valley, the Muslim fundamentalist movement is tiny.) Severe human rights abuses finally caused even the Bush administration to criticize Karimov, leading Tashkent to withdraw basing rights in that country from the US military.

In recent years, however, a rapprochement has occurred, as Washington's regional security obsessions once again came to the fore and the wars in Afghanistan and Pakistan's northwest tribal belt ramped up. The Obama administration is now convinced that it needs Uzbekistan for the transit of supplies to Afghanistan and that evidently trumps all other policy considerations. As a result, Washington is now providing Uzbekistan with hundreds of millions of dollars in Pentagon contracts, a recipe for further corruption.

Last spring, one Central Asian government - Kyrgyzstan's - fell, thanks to popular discontent, which should have been a warning to Washington, and yet US officials already appear to have forgotten what lessons those events held for its policies in the region. As long as ruler Kurmanbek Bakiev allowed the US to use Manas Air Base for the transit and supply of American troops in Afghanistan, Washington overlooked his corruption and his authoritarian ways. Then it turned out that his regime was not as stable as had been assumed.

Here's a simple rule of thumb in such situations: bad policy creates even worse policy. The Obama administration's mistake in ramping up its Afghan war left it needing ever more supplies, worrying about perilous supply lines through Pakistan, and so vulnerable to transit blackmail by the ruling kleptocracies of Central Asia. When their populations, too, explode into anger, the likely damage to US interests could be severe.

And keep in mind that, as the State Department again knows all too well, Afghanistan itself is increasingly just a huge, particularly decrepit version of Ben Ali's Tunisia. US diplomats were at least somewhat wary of Ben Ali. In contrast, American officials wax fulsome in their public praise of Afghan President Hamid Karzai (even if privately they are all too aware of the weakness and corruption of "the mayor of Kabul"). They continue to insist that the success of his government is central to the security of the North American continent, and for that reason, Washington is spending billions of dollars propping him up.

Corruption triumphant in the name of counter-terrorism

Sometimes it seems that all corrupt regimes backed by the US are corrupt in the same repetitive way. For instance, one form of corruption US Embassy cables particularly highlighted when it came to the Ben Ali and Trabelsi clans in Tunisia was the way they offered "loans" to their political supporters and family members via banks they controlled or over which they had influence.

Since these recipients understood that they did not actually have to repay the loans, the banks were weakened and other businesses then found it difficult to get credit, undermining the economy and employment. Thanks to the Jasmine revolution, the problem finally is beginning to be addressed. After the flight of Ben Ali, the Central Bank director was forced to resign, and the new government seized the assets of the Zitoune Bank, which belonged to one of his son-in-laws.

Similarly, in Afghanistan, Da Kabul Bank, founded by Karzai ally Sherkan Farnood, was used as a piggy bank for Karzai's presidential campaign and for loans to members of his family as well as the families of the warlords in his circle. Recipients included Karzai's brother Mahmoud Karzai and Haseen Fahim, the son of his vice president and former Northern Alliance warlord Marshal Mohammad Fahim. Some of the money was used to buy real estate in Dubai. When a real estate bust occurred in that country, the value of those properties as collateral plummeted.

With recipients unable to service or repay their debts, the bank teetered on the edge of insolvency with potentially dire consequences for the entire Afghan financial system, as desperate crowds gathered to withdraw their deposits. In the end, the bank was taken over by an impoverished Afghan government, which undoubtedly means that the American taxpayer will end up paying for the mismanagement and corruption.

Just as the Ben Ali clique outdid itself in corruption, so, too, Karzai's circle is full of crooks. American diplomats (among others) have, for instance, accused his brother Wali Ahmed of deep involvement in the heroin trade. With dark humor, the US Embassy in Kabul reported last January that Hamid Karzai had nominated, and parliament had accepted, for the counter-narcotics post in the cabinet one Zarar Ahmad Moqbel. He had earlier been Deputy Interior Minister, but was removed for corruption.

Another former Deputy Interior Minister evidently even informed embassy officials that "Moqbel was supported by the drug mafia, to include Karzai's younger half-brother Ahmed Wali Karzai and Arif Khan Noorzai." This is being alleged of Afghanistan's current counter-narcotics czar!

Or take the example of Juma Khan Hamdard, whom Karzai appointed governor of Paktia province in the Pashtun-dominated eastern part of Afghanistan. A little over a year ago, the embassy accused him of being the leader of "a province-wide corruption scheme". He is said to have been "the central point of a vast corruption network involving the provincial chief of police and several Afghan ministry line directors".

According to that WikiLeaks-released cable, Hamdard's network had set up a sophisticated money-skimming operation aimed at milking US funds going into reconstruction projects. They gamed the bids on the contracts to do the work and then took cuts at every stage from groundbreaking to ribbon-cutting.

In addition, Hamdard was reported to have longstanding ties to the Hizb-i-Islami militia/party movement of Gulbaddin Hikmatyar, one of the Pashtun guerrilla leaders trying to expel the US and North Atlantic Treaty organization from the country, who, US officials claim, is in turn in a vague alliance with the Taliban. Hamdard allegedly also has a business in Dubai in which Hekmatyar's son is a partner, and is accused in the cable of funneling jewels and drug money to Hekmatyar loyalists. As with Tunisia, the public rhetoric of counter-terrorism belies a corrupt and duplicitous ruling elite that may, by its actions, foster rather than forestall radicalism.

Harsh truths

For a superpower obsessed with conspiracy theories and invested in the status quo, knowing everything, it turns out, means knowing nothing at all. WikiLeaks has done us the favor, however, of releasing a harsh set of truths. Hard-line policies such as those of the Algerian generals or of Uzbekistan's Karimov often radicalize economically desperate and oppressed populations.

As a result, US backing has a significant probability of boomeranging sooner or later. Elites, confident that they will retain such backing as long as there is an al-Qaeda cell anywhere on the planet, tend to overreach, plunging into cultures of corruption and self-enrichment so vast that they undermine economies, while producing poverty, unemployment, despair, and ultimately widespread public anger.

It is not that the United States should be, in John Quincy Adams' phrase, going out into the world to find dragons to slay. Washington is no longer all-powerful, if it ever was, and Obama's more realistic foreign policy is a welcome change from Bush's frenetic interventionism.

Nonetheless, Obama has left in place, or in some cases strengthened, one of the worst aspects of Bush-era policy: a knee-jerk support for self-advertised pro-Western secularists who promise to block Muslim fundamentalist parties (or, in the end, anyone else) from coming to power. There should be a diplomatic middle path between overthrowing governments on the one hand, and backing odious dictatorships to the hilt on the other.

It's time for Washington to signal a new commitment to actual democracy and genuine human rights by simply cutting off military and counter-terrorism aid to authoritarian and corrupt regimes that are, in any case, digging their own graves.

Juan Cole is the Richard P Mitchell Professor of History and the director of the Center for South Asian Studies at the University of Michigan. His latest book, Engaging the Muslim World is just out in a revised paperback edition from Palgrave Macmillan. He runs the Informed Comment website. To listen to Timothy MacBain's latest TomCast audio interview in which Cole discusses Washington's backing of corrupt autocratic regimes globally, click here or, to download it to your iPod, here.

(Copyright 2011 Juan Cole.)
 
I just hope we don't support Mubarak out of fear that the more extremist Muslim Brotherhood takes over. The people need to stand up and throw his corrupt regime out.

 
These protests, uprisings and potential gOvernmental overthrows are good or bad for us? I'm unclear on the ideologies at play here.
Could be good, but I fear bad. The Iranian revolution started off in a similar way. People were tired of the Shah, wanted government reforms, more freedoms- and very quickly it was taken over by religious extremists. The same thing may happen here. Or it may not. A rise in Islamism would be extremely bad for the United States.
 
These protests, uprisings and potential gOvernmental overthrows are good or bad for us? I'm unclear on the ideologies at play here.
Could be good, but I fear bad. The Iranian revolution started off in a similar way. People were tired of the Shah, wanted government reforms, more freedoms- and very quickly it was taken over by religious extremists. The same thing may happen here. Or it may not. A rise in Islamism would be extremely bad for the United States.
But it doesn't seem there is a "right" way to do anything over there. The article posted by higgins was pretty damning in regards to propping up corrupt regimes.
 
I just selfishly hope Mubarak can keep it under control for a bit longer. I booked my wife's dream trip - a two week excursion through Egypt about three weeks ago. We leave March 10th.Always been nervous to travel there...but figured it was a relatively stable time to go. I mean the guys been in power 30 years or so, right?Oops.
Did you buy trip insurance?
 
These protests, uprisings and potential gOvernmental overthrows are good or bad for us? I'm unclear on the ideologies at play here.
Could be good, but I fear bad. The Iranian revolution started off in a similar way. People were tired of the Shah, wanted government reforms, more freedoms- and very quickly it was taken over by religious extremists. The same thing may happen here. Or it may not. A rise in Islamism would be extremely bad for the United States.
I'm not a middle east scholar, but is this more or less likely in Egypt or Tunisia then, say, Iran in the 70s? My gut tells me less likely but I really have no idea.
 
These protests, uprisings and potential gOvernmental overthrows are good or bad for us? I'm unclear on the ideologies at play here.
Could be good, but I fear bad. The Iranian revolution started off in a similar way. People were tired of the Shah, wanted government reforms, more freedoms- and very quickly it was taken over by religious extremists. The same thing may happen here. Or it may not. A rise in Islamism would be extremely bad for the United States.
This could be the result but I can't see how that is a reason to support Mubarek. I mean, its possible that the next Egyptian government could be worse than the current one - but at least give the people a chance. I mean - what does that say about us if we support a brutal dictator because it will be better for the US?

It is humorous that the only "news" show that has pointed out the hypocrisy of the US gov't's stance on Egypt and Tunisia is The Daily Show.

 
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_...my-arrives.html

The Army Arrives

28 Jan 2011 10:27 am

by Chris Bodenner

And apparently that's not necessarily a bad thing:

CNN has just broadcast video of soldiers on the streets of Cairo. As armored personal carriers arrived outside a state television building, Ben Wedeman of CNN reported that people on the streets shouted "Allahu Akbar" as the troops arrived. Mr. Wedeman suggested that this could be because the nation's army is more trusted than the police.

EA:

1506 GMT: Al Jazeera Army has live shots of an Egyptian Army armoured vehicle coming near 6 October Bridge. Protesters have run up to greet the soldiers enthusiastically.

Reuters:

Egyptian protesters in Cairo chanted slogans calling for the army to support them, complaining of police violence during clashes on Friday in which security forces fired teargas and rubber bullets. "Where is the army? Come and see what the police is doing to us. We want the army. We want the army," the protesters in one area of central Cairo shouted, shortly before police fired teargas on them.

 
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_...my-arrives.html

The Army Arrives

28 Jan 2011 10:27 am

by Chris Bodenner

And apparently that's not necessarily a bad thing:

CNN has just broadcast video of soldiers on the streets of Cairo. As armored personal carriers arrived outside a state television building, Ben Wedeman of CNN reported that people on the streets shouted "Allahu Akbar" as the troops arrived. Mr. Wedeman suggested that this could be because the nation's army is more trusted than the police.

EA:

1506 GMT: Al Jazeera Army has live shots of an Egyptian Army armoured vehicle coming near 6 October Bridge. Protesters have run up to greet the soldiers enthusiastically.

Reuters:

Egyptian protesters in Cairo chanted slogans calling for the army to support them, complaining of police violence during clashes on Friday in which security forces fired teargas and rubber bullets. "Where is the army? Come and see what the police is doing to us. We want the army. We want the army," the protesters in one area of central Cairo shouted, shortly before police fired teargas on them.
I read somewhere that in certain areas, the army is on the side of the people and isn't doing anything.
 
I just hope we don't support Mubarak out of fear that the more extremist Muslim Brotherhood takes over. The people need to stand up and throw his corrupt regime out.
That's exactly what's happening.We sell them the internet talking about the free expression of ideas while giving them the tools to regulate and monitor every word.
 
These protests, uprisings and potential gOvernmental overthrows are good or bad for us? I'm unclear on the ideologies at play here.
Could be good, but I fear bad. The Iranian revolution started off in a similar way. People were tired of the Shah, wanted government reforms, more freedoms- and very quickly it was taken over by religious extremists. The same thing may happen here. Or it may not. A rise in Islamism would be extremely bad for the United States.
That's the problem. You take a close look at who has the best chance to rise out of the instability that revolution will create and more often then not you're not going to be happy with the answer in this region.It's like a freight train. You never know if you're going to get U.S.A's or France's version until the dust has settled.
 
These protests, uprisings and potential gOvernmental overthrows are good or bad for us? I'm unclear on the ideologies at play here.
Could be good, but I fear bad. The Iranian revolution started off in a similar way. People were tired of the Shah, wanted government reforms, more freedoms- and very quickly it was taken over by religious extremists. The same thing may happen here. Or it may not. A rise in Islamism would be extremely bad for the United States.
This could be the result but I can't see how that is a reason to support Mubarek. I mean, its possible that the next Egyptian government could be worse than the current one - but at least give the people a chance. I mean - what does that say about us if we support a brutal dictator because it will be better for the US?

It is humorous that the only "news" show that has pointed out the hypocrisy of the US gov't's stance on Egypt and Tunisia is The Daily Show.
I'm not saying we should necessarily support Mubarik. But here's the thing: from what I read, while there are individual leaders promoting democracy and freedom, there is no organized structure to do. The only organized opposition in Egypt with leadership intact is, you guessed it, the Muslim Brotherhood. And while they represent a minority, they ARE taking part in the protests. Meanwhile nearly half the population is illiterate. We've seen this script played out before. If I had to guess, the Muslim Brotherhood will eventually be the winner in all of this. But I hope I'm wrong. Looks like Yemen might be in trouble as well.

 
Lebanon being taken over by Hezbollah, Egypt being taken over by fundamentalist Muslims...

Yeah what could be wrong here... Only good can come from this...

Supporters of Israel should be very concerned...

Jordan should not be far behind...

 
:P That look serious. I'm assuming that shotgun is shooting rubber bullets or something like that since the policeman is just firing it into the crowd.

 
Lebanon being taken over by Hezbollah, Egypt being taken over by fundamentalist Muslims...Yeah what could be wrong here... Only good can come from this...Supporters of Israel should be very concerned...Jordan should not be far behind...
:lmao: ...
Okay DD....you were the one I have been waiting on in this thread, what are your thoughts? You always have good insight into these things. :lmao:
I'm waiting to see if this fizzles out in Egypt but the situation in Tunisia is beneficial to us and to a more free Middle East. Although there is a chance Egypt falls under a more strict Islamic following, I think there is a better chance this gets them more freedoms which is the bottom line. It may parallel August 1978 Iran to the eyes but the movement there was about a much more oppressive state that was as inept as any in modern history under the Shah. That movement was masterminded by Oz or the Aiytollahs, this one in Egypt seems to be a grass roots revolt against the Mubarak government that is themed around individual freedoms and the disposition of the state. This could also turn into another February 1982 Hama, Syria if Mubarak loses too much control and acts with a heavy hand, but more likely it turns into the 2005 uprising in Uzbekistan. If Mubarak is smart he will probably listen to what is happening and act to pacify the revolt through dialogue and an olive branch. Then he can stall and keep the status quo until he turns power over to Gamel. I think the U.S. is taking a wait and see approach and I can see Saudi Arabia, the U.S. and maybe some of the European countries offer their diplomatic advice to Mubarak. If this were happening in Saudi I would worry more about Islamists gaining control but I think Egypt is more culturally, ideologically and socially tied to Europe than most of the Middle East. I think this makes it a lot tougher to Islamist to move into power because even if half of the country can't read, they still are more in-tune with regional and world events than those living in other countries in the Arab/Muslim world. I think many of us saw this coming but I always thought it would take a stronger hold in Iran. We'll see, at this point I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing for us but the next few weeks and months will give us a clearer picture on the implications for the region. Israel is obviously most concerned, I will look forward to reading some Israeli thoughts on what is happening as this unfolds.
 
Doctor Detroit said:
Bogeys said:
Doctor Detroit said:
BoneYardDog said:
Lebanon being taken over by Hezbollah, Egypt being taken over by fundamentalist Muslims...Yeah what could be wrong here... Only good can come from this...Supporters of Israel should be very concerned...Jordan should not be far behind...
:ptts: ...
Okay DD....you were the one I have been waiting on in this thread, what are your thoughts? You always have good insight into these things. :lmao:
I'm waiting to see if this fizzles out in Egypt but the situation in Tunisia is beneficial to us and to a more free Middle East. Although there is a chance Egypt falls under a more strict Islamic following, I think there is a better chance this gets them more freedoms which is the bottom line. It may parallel August 1978 Iran to the eyes but the movement there was about a much more oppressive state that was as inept as any in modern history under the Shah. That movement was masterminded by Oz or the Aiytollahs, this one in Egypt seems to be a grass roots revolt against the Mubarak government that is themed around individual freedoms and the disposition of the state. This could also turn into another February 1982 Hama, Syria if Mubarak loses too much control and acts with a heavy hand, but more likely it turns into the 2005 uprising in Uzbekistan. If Mubarak is smart he will probably listen to what is happening and act to pacify the revolt through dialogue and an olive branch. Then he can stall and keep the status quo until he turns power over to Gamel. I think the U.S. is taking a wait and see approach and I can see Saudi Arabia, the U.S. and maybe some of the European countries offer their diplomatic advice to Mubarak. If this were happening in Saudi I would worry more about Islamists gaining control but I think Egypt is more culturally, ideologically and socially tied to Europe than most of the Middle East. I think this makes it a lot tougher to Islamist to move into power because even if half of the country can't read, they still are more in-tune with regional and world events than those living in other countries in the Arab/Muslim world. I think many of us saw this coming but I always thought it would take a stronger hold in Iran. We'll see, at this point I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing for us but the next few weeks and months will give us a clearer picture on the implications for the region. Israel is obviously most concerned, I will look forward to reading some Israeli thoughts on what is happening as this unfolds.
Agree with DD 100% here. Rather than making blanket statements and trying to rush to figure out the potential fallout just sit back and enjoy the ride a little bit. Take a few minutes and research it, watch some of the video footage. It's not all about us, it's about these people. Personally, I think it's great if the people are fed up with the governement and want change and are willing to do whatever it takes. At least they have some passion which is more than you can say about a lot of Americans who don't even vote they are so asleep at the wheel and then wonder why things in this country slowly keep getting worse and worse.
 
Doctor Detroit said:
I'm waiting to see if this fizzles out in Egypt but the situation in Tunisia is beneficial to us and to a more free Middle East. Although there is a chance Egypt falls under a more strict Islamic following, I think there is a better chance this gets them more freedoms which is the bottom line. It may parallel August 1978 Iran to the eyes but the movement there was about a much more oppressive state that was as inept as any in modern history under the Shah. That movement was masterminded by Oz or the Aiytollahs, this one in Egypt seems to be a grass roots revolt against the Mubarak government that is themed around individual freedoms and the disposition of the state. This could also turn into another February 1982 Hama, Syria if Mubarak loses too much control and acts with a heavy hand, but more likely it turns into the 2005 uprising in Uzbekistan. If Mubarak is smart he will probably listen to what is happening and act to pacify the revolt through dialogue and an olive branch. Then he can stall and keep the status quo until he turns power over to Gamel. I think the U.S. is taking a wait and see approach and I can see Saudi Arabia, the U.S. and maybe some of the European countries offer their diplomatic advice to Mubarak. If this were happening in Saudi I would worry more about Islamists gaining control but I think Egypt is more culturally, ideologically and socially tied to Europe than most of the Middle East. I think this makes it a lot tougher to Islamist to move into power because even if half of the country can't read, they still are more in-tune with regional and world events than those living in other countries in the Arab/Muslim world. I think many of us saw this coming but I always thought it would take a stronger hold in Iran. We'll see, at this point I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing for us but the next few weeks and months will give us a clearer picture on the implications for the region. Israel is obviously most concerned, I will look forward to reading some Israeli thoughts on what is happening as this unfolds.
I certainly hope you're right about this. But I'm skeptical. First, I don't think you are correct about Iran. That rebellion was not masterminded by the Ayatollahs; they were in fact surprised by it. Khomeini reacted very quickly by calling on the public to reject Bakhtiar, similar to the way Lenin reacted to and defeated Kerensky. Now I grant you there is no Lenin or Khomeini in this situation, at least none that we know of. But there also is no organized Democratic resistance. The only organized body that currently opposes Mubarek is the Muslim Brotherhood. Is it therefore so preposterous to assume that, in the event the Egyptian govt. is deposed, the Brotherhood will be in the best position to replace it? I don't think that's so unlikely, and that's why I am fearful about this. Still, I hope you're right.
 
Doctor Detroit said:
I think the U.S. is taking a wait and see approach and I can see Saudi Arabia, the U.S. and maybe some of the European countries offer their diplomatic advice to Mubarak. If this were happening in Saudi I would worry more about Islamists gaining control but I think Egypt is more culturally, ideologically and socially tied to Europe than most of the Middle East. I think this makes it a lot tougher to Islamist to move into power because even if half of the country can't read, they still are more in-tune with regional and world events than those living in other countries in the Arab/Muslim world. I think many of us saw this coming but I always thought it would take a stronger hold in Iran. We'll see, at this point I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing for us but the next few weeks and months will give us a clearer picture on the implications for the region. Israel is obviously most concerned, I will look forward to reading some Israeli thoughts on what is happening as this unfolds.
Egypt is one of the two most secular westernized countries in the Muslim world. They are Arab (and Egyptian) and not Persian and Sunni not Shia, two facts that cannot be forgotten. Cairo has long been the intellectual center of the Arab world, not Tehran. They have a very pro-western middle class and a history of tolerance. Which way the Army goes will determine how this plays out. So far, the Army is in the street, not to supress the protestors, but to try to keep order. The Army is no friend of the Muslim Brotherhood. The riot police have been withdrawn. Our MENA people are keeping close watch on this via Al Jazera TV and they're watching it in Arabic so they can hear what the protestors are saying.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Doctor Detroit said:
Bogeys said:
Doctor Detroit said:
BoneYardDog said:
Lebanon being taken over by Hezbollah, Egypt being taken over by fundamentalist Muslims...Yeah what could be wrong here... Only good can come from this...Supporters of Israel should be very concerned...Jordan should not be far behind...
:banned: ...
Okay DD....you were the one I have been waiting on in this thread, what are your thoughts? You always have good insight into these things. :bye:
I'm waiting to see if this fizzles out in Egypt but the situation in Tunisia is beneficial to us and to a more free Middle East. Although there is a chance Egypt falls under a more strict Islamic following, I think there is a better chance this gets them more freedoms which is the bottom line. It may parallel August 1978 Iran to the eyes but the movement there was about a much more oppressive state that was as inept as any in modern history under the Shah. That movement was masterminded by Oz or the Aiytollahs, this one in Egypt seems to be a grass roots revolt against the Mubarak government that is themed around individual freedoms and the disposition of the state. This could also turn into another February 1982 Hama, Syria if Mubarak loses too much control and acts with a heavy hand, but more likely it turns into the 2005 uprising in Uzbekistan. If Mubarak is smart he will probably listen to what is happening and act to pacify the revolt through dialogue and an olive branch. Then he can stall and keep the status quo until he turns power over to Gamel. I think the U.S. is taking a wait and see approach and I can see Saudi Arabia, the U.S. and maybe some of the European countries offer their diplomatic advice to Mubarak. If this were happening in Saudi I would worry more about Islamists gaining control but I think Egypt is more culturally, ideologically and socially tied to Europe than most of the Middle East. I think this makes it a lot tougher to Islamist to move into power because even if half of the country can't read, they still are more in-tune with regional and world events than those living in other countries in the Arab/Muslim world. I think many of us saw this coming but I always thought it would take a stronger hold in Iran. We'll see, at this point I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing for us but the next few weeks and months will give us a clearer picture on the implications for the region. Israel is obviously most concerned, I will look forward to reading some Israeli thoughts on what is happening as this unfolds.
Thanks DD....I know you have your finger on the pulse when it comes to this stuff. :thumbup:
 
It's not all about us, it's about these people. Personally, I think it's great if the people are fed up with the governement and want change and are willing to do whatever it takes. At least they have some passion which is more than you can say about a lot of Americans who don't even vote they are so asleep at the wheel and then wonder why things in this country slowly keep getting worse and worse.
Strongly disagree with you here. We need to view every situation in the Middle East in terms of what is in the United States best interest- meaning, what will in the longterm result in the continued flow of petroleum at cheap prices. This must be our primary concern.
 
Our government is foolish not to always push for true democracy. True democracy will always be a moderating force. Of course, the trick is to make sure that one tyrant isn't replaced with another (as in Iran). So far though, our State Department's reactions have been quite lacking IMO. This shouldn't be surprising though since this is not the first time that our President (meaning not just Obama but ones before him as well) have failed to encourage democratic uprisings around the world.

I do fear though that our current President believes entirely too much in the idea that all cultures, governments and countries are equally valid and has not done enough to publicly support democracy internationally. We can agree or disagree on whether or not the US should use military force to facilitate change, but we should certainly be a steadfast voice for democracy and freedom.

 
Doctor Detroit said:
I'm waiting to see if this fizzles out in Egypt but the situation in Tunisia is beneficial to us and to a more free Middle East. Although there is a chance Egypt falls under a more strict Islamic following, I think there is a better chance this gets them more freedoms which is the bottom line. It may parallel August 1978 Iran to the eyes but the movement there was about a much more oppressive state that was as inept as any in modern history under the Shah. That movement was masterminded by Oz or the Aiytollahs, this one in Egypt seems to be a grass roots revolt against the Mubarak government that is themed around individual freedoms and the disposition of the state.

This could also turn into another February 1982 Hama, Syria if Mubarak loses too much control and acts with a heavy hand, but more likely it turns into the 2005 uprising in Uzbekistan. If Mubarak is smart he will probably listen to what is happening and act to pacify the revolt through dialogue and an olive branch. Then he can stall and keep the status quo until he turns power over to Gamel.

I think the U.S. is taking a wait and see approach and I can see Saudi Arabia, the U.S. and maybe some of the European countries offer their diplomatic advice to Mubarak. If this were happening in Saudi I would worry more about Islamists gaining control but I think Egypt is more culturally, ideologically and socially tied to Europe than most of the Middle East. I think this makes it a lot tougher to Islamist to move into power because even if half of the country can't read, they still are more in-tune with regional and world events than those living in other countries in the Arab/Muslim world.

I think many of us saw this coming but I always thought it would take a stronger hold in Iran. We'll see, at this point I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing for us but the next few weeks and months will give us a clearer picture on the implications for the region. Israel is obviously most concerned, I will look forward to reading some Israeli thoughts on what is happening as this unfolds.
I certainly hope you're right about this. But I'm skeptical. First, I don't think you are correct about Iran. That rebellion was not masterminded by the Ayatollahs; they were in fact surprised by it. Khomeini reacted very quickly by calling on the public to reject Bakhtiar, similar to the way Lenin reacted to and defeated Kerensky.
Khomeini had started the revolution in the 60s, the revolution grew due to many things but Khomeini and the Islamic movement was at the center of it all from the very beginning. Saying they were surprised by it when Qom was producing literature and ideas in great volume to send to the various movements to ignite the flame is strange. The death of Khomeini's son was probably the tipping point that took the revolution from isolated events to an organized movement in mass.
 
Our government is foolish not to always push for true democracy. True democracy will always be a moderating force.
And again, I strongly disagree with you (and with George W. Bush and Jimmy Carter, the two contemporary presidents most prominent for this idea.). Pushing democracy on countries with high illiteracy or with extremist religious views lead inevitably to dictatorships worse than the ones that were there before. Democracy is not in itself moral. Sometimes a benevolent dictatorship can be better, for our interests, than a democracy.
 
Khomeini had started the revolution in the 60s, the revolution grew due to many things but Khomeini and the Islamic movement was at the center of it all from the very beginning. Saying they were surprised by it when Qom was producing literature and ideas in great volume to send to the various movements to ignite the flame is strange. The death of Khomeini's son was probably the tipping point that took the revolution from isolated events to an organized movement in mass.
From what I've read, he was caught off guard, but brilliantly took advantage of the situation. It's true that he was the most well-known anti-Shah figure and therefore the easiest for people to rally around. But the students and intellectuals who fought against the Shah did not envisage an Islamist regime as a result. In any case, Egypt is not Iran. Perhaps the difference in religion (Sunni) will make a difference. I certainly hope so. I really want you to be right- for all of our sakes.
 
Strongly disagree with you here. We need to view every situation in the Middle East in terms of what is in the United States best interest- meaning, what will in the longterm result in the continued flow of petroleum at cheap prices. This must be our primary concern.
This is a pretty lame way of looking at the world tim.
 
Our government is foolish not to always push for true democracy. True democracy will always be a moderating force. Of course, the trick is to make sure that one tyrant isn't replaced with another (as in Iran). So far though, our State Department's reactions have been quite lacking IMO. This shouldn't be surprising though since this is not the first time that our President (meaning not just Obama but ones before him as well) have failed to encourage democratic uprisings around the world. I do fear though that our current President believes entirely too much in the idea that all cultures, governments and countries are equally valid and has not done enough to publicly support democracy internationally. We can agree or disagree on whether or not the US should use military force to facilitate change, but we should certainly be a steadfast voice for democracy and freedom.
Liberal democracy tends to be a moderating force. Plain old democracy (majority rules, period) tends to really suck.For example, if you left it up to a vote, I'm guessing the people of Saudi Arabia would vote for a theocracy. That's a form of government that we should all loathe.
 
Our government is foolish not to always push for true democracy. True democracy will always be a moderating force.
And again, I strongly disagree with you (and with George W. Bush and Jimmy Carter, the two contemporary presidents most prominent for this idea.). Pushing democracy on countries with high illiteracy or with extremist religious views lead inevitably to dictatorships worse than the ones that were there before. Democracy is not in itself moral. Sometimes a benevolent dictatorship can be better, for our interests, than a democracy.
If it leads to a dictatorship, then it's not a democracy anymore, is it? In countries where democracy takes root and they become true democracies, they will always become more moderate. As people realize that they control their own destinies and have freedom to prosper, they will look out for their own self-interests because they place more value on their lives. And their own self-interests will start with being peaceful as much as possible in order to preserve their lives.

I believe that it still stands that no two free democracies have ever gone to war against each other.

 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top