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Electric Cars (Tesla and Others) (3 Viewers)

matttyl said:
Maybe not to green after all?

I'd be looking at one of these for being "green" as in costing less from my wallet, but it would be nice to know that they are "green" in terms of helping the environment.  Looks like it comes down really to the mining and building of the batteries themselves.
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PSA - if it’s a Tesla article on Zero Hedge (or Seeking Alpha), it will be negative. Sometimes 3-4 anti-TSLA articles per day.

Not saying the reporting is inaccurate, but FUD from short sellers is similar to political bias. If someone links an article that criticizes Dems, and you notice it’s from Daily Caller or Washington Times, you might want to Google up some other sources to confirm it.

I am all for holding feet to the fire when it comes to Elon Musk & Tesla. They often over promise, under deliver, miss deadlines, and are wildly optimistic with timelines/production targets. Great product, lousy company IMO. It won’t get better anytime soon. They just reduced the board from 11 to 7, and that includes Elon, his brother Kimball (he’s a chef) and Larry Ellison - Musk used to crash at his mansion every week for years before he finally bought a house in L.A. (he commutes between Space X & Tesla several times a week.)

The company is insular and there is no executive development. Everything goes through Musk. When they had M3 delivery problems in Europe, he flew to the port and straightened it out. He’s in charge of sales, and their delivery experience is a nightmare for many. The pricing changes and EAP/FSD policy whiplash in Q1 was ridiculous.

Great products, lousy company. I honestly think they would run better without him. Ain’t happening though.

 
matttyl said:
I think a lot of it comes down to Lithium Ion production now being much, much cleaner than it used to be.
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It's more than lithium ion production. The production of electric vehicles and their charging stations requires a lot a copper.  I don't want to spend lots of time cutting and pasting environmental studies about copper mining from google--but needless to say copper mining is not a "green" process by any means.  

 
I'll be looking for a used Model S in the near future. Hoping to spend $40-50k.

I'm concerned about warranty & repairs. For warranty purposes, is it better to buy used from Tesla instead of a non-Tesla dealer or private seller?

I assume they'll provide a loaner like the other luxury brands.

 
Gianni Verscotchie said:
I'll be looking for a used Model S in the near future. Hoping to spend $40-50k.

I'm concerned about warranty & repairs. For warranty purposes, is it better to buy used from Tesla instead of a non-Tesla dealer or private seller?

I assume they'll provide a loaner like the other luxury brands.
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Their CPO program was supposed to come back at some point when they started getting Model 3s back, but now it looks like that won't happen.   

They have extended warranty you can get the seller to buy which can transfer to you.

 
Dragons said:
Haven't had time today to delve into this more, but here's discussion about the article on the Tesla Motors Club forum.

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/3596196/
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Thanks for this.  Looks like they're assuming a pretty short lifespan for the batteries/cars, and not accounting for the recycleability at the end of that battery lifespan - and then accounting for all the CO2 cost and energy required in the production of the car battery over a much shorter (in terms of miles driven) lifespan. 

 
culdeus said:
Gianni Verscotchie said:
I'll be looking for a used Model S in the near future. Hoping to spend $40-50k.

I'm concerned about warranty & repairs. For warranty purposes, is it better to buy used from Tesla instead of a non-Tesla dealer or private seller?

I assume they'll provide a loaner like the other luxury brands.
Click to expand...
Their CPO program was supposed to come back at some point when they started getting Model 3s back, but now it looks like that won't happen.   

They have extended warranty you can get the seller to buy which can transfer to you.
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Actually that changed.

Used to be only the original owner could buy the ESA. But Tesla changed the policy last year, so as long as you’re still on the original 4-year, 50K Warranty, the 2nd owner can purchase the extended service agreement. EXCEPTION: doesn’t apply to Tesla Model S/X bought from a third party dealer.

 
Gianni Verscotchie said:
I'll be looking for a used Model S in the near future. Hoping to spend $40-50k.

I'm concerned about warranty & repairs. For warranty purposes, is it better to buy used from Tesla instead of a non-Tesla dealer or private seller?

I assume they'll provide a loaner like the other luxury brands.
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Also, if you don’t already frequent the Tesla Motors Club forums, I would spend some time there doing research. There are delivery checklists, discussion on Teslas for sale, and you’ll become aware of things to be on the lookout for based on reading through others experiences.

 
BobbyLayne said:
Actually that changed.

Used to be only the original owner could buy the ESA. But Tesla changed the policy last year, so as long as you’re still on the original 4-year, 50K Warranty, the 2nd owner can purchase the extended service agreement. EXCEPTION: doesn’t apply to Tesla Model S/X bought from a third party dealer.
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Good info here. I'll likely buy through Tesla then.

 
BobbyLayne said:
Here's every electric vehicle on sale in the US for 2019 and its range
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The E tron has got to be a major disappointment.   204 mile range for $75k?

And not to sound too fan boyish, but who on Earth would buy a Chevy Bolt over a Model 3?   Or most of those options for that matter.  The Kona seems like a solid #2 behind all the Teslas.  

And all those competitors lack a nationwide super charging system.  This seems like the least mentioned factor in all these articles.  I made a 500 mile trip to pick my Model 3.  I couldn't have done that with any of these other options without stopping overnight.  

 
WDIK2 said:
Thanks.  I've paid very little attention to the EV market.  The Hyundai Kona looks interesting.
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It's pretty nice. We went to the dealership to look at a Kona for my gf. Unfortunately you have to be about 5'2" to fit in it comfortably.

 
Worm said:
It's pretty nice. We went to the dealership to look at a Kona for my gf. Unfortunately you have to be about 5'2" to fit in it comfortably.
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I've heard that.  I haven't been in one.  I've seen reports of the dealerships marking them up $5-8K over MSRP.  

 
jb1020 said:
And not to sound too fan boyish, but who on Earth would buy a Chevy Bolt over a Model 3?   Or most of those options for that matter.  The Kona seems like a solid #2 behind all the Teslas.  
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Because Chevy will exist in 10 years and is not made like a 1990 Kia. I would argue the complete opposite. Who would buy a model 3 when the Bolt exists.

 
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huthut said:
jb1020 said:
And not to sound too fan boyish, but who on Earth would buy a Chevy Bolt over a Model 3?   Or most of those options for that matter.  The Kona seems like a solid #2 behind all the Teslas.  
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Because Chevy will exist in 10 years and is not made like a 1990 Kia. I would argue the complete opposite. Who would buy a model 3 when the Bolt exists.

Edited 50 minutes ago by huthut
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As far as a Bolt over the Model 3, the biggest reason is probably price. I just checked several dealerships near me and you can get a new Bolt for 35-38k (MSRP around 44k).  Up until recently, you couldn't actually get a Model 3 close to that.  Looks like the base price for a Model 3 is currently $40k, so that price advantage isn't as significant as it used to be. 

 
From a little googling:

Chevy Bolt total US sales: ~46,000

Model 3 total US sales in 2018: ~138,000

Ya, you would have to be crazy nutballs to buy a Model 3...

 
jb1020 said:
The E tron has got to be a major disappointment.   204 mile range for $75k?

And not to sound too fan boyish, but who on Earth would buy a Chevy Bolt over a Model 3?   Or most of those options for that matter.  The Kona seems like a solid #2 behind all the Teslas.  

And all those competitors lack a nationwide super charging system.  This seems like the least mentioned factor in all these articles.  I made a 500 mile trip to pick my Model 3.  I couldn't have done that with any of these other options without stopping overnight.  
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Disappointment due to the range?  Most of my friends drive under 100 miles a day. 

A $75K Audi is not going to be the only vehicle in the household. 

 
The Audi e-tron has a 95kWh battery pack, so yes 204 miles of range is disappointing.

Tesla Model S 100D - 370 miles

Tesla Model X 100D - 325 miles

(both are 100kWh)

Tesla Model 3 - 220/240/310 miles from ~50/55/75 kWh packs.

 
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jb1020 said:
The E tron has got to be a major disappointment.   204 mile range for $75k?

And not to sound too fan boyish, but who on Earth would buy a Chevy Bolt over a Model 3?   Or most of those options for that matter.  The Kona seems like a solid #2 behind all the Teslas.  

And all those competitors lack a nationwide super charging system.  This seems like the least mentioned factor in all these articles.  I made a 500 mile trip to pick my Model 3.  I couldn't have done that with any of these other options without stopping overnight.  
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Ah yes. RAgnE Ax3ITy aaaaaaaaaa

If your commute is 100 miles each way maybe evaluate your life choices first. 

 
jb1020 said:
The E tron has got to be a major disappointment.   204 mile range for $75k?

And not to sound too fan boyish, but who on Earth would buy a Chevy Bolt over a Model 3?   Or most of those options for that matter.  The Kona seems like a solid #2 behind all the Teslas.  

And all those competitors lack a nationwide super charging system.  This seems like the least mentioned factor in all these articles.  I made a 500 mile trip to pick my Model 3.  I couldn't have done that with any of these other options without stopping overnight.  
Click to expand...


My brother in law recently bought a Bolt, he works for an electric company that was giving the employees a 5,000 dollar bonus if they bought an electric vehicle. This would have worked for either the Bolt or Model 3. However the tax incentives were still available for Chevy for 7,500 and were not available for the model 3.  There is also the 2,500 dollar Texas incentive, this is also good for the model 3 and Bolt.

With dealer incentives the Chevy will run him less than 20k when it is all said and done.

He has a 10 mile commute and they take his wife's car on any road trips.

 
Nugget said:
Disappointment due to the range?  Most of my friends drive under 100 miles a day. 

A $75K Audi is not going to be the only vehicle in the household. 
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Do you guys not like to do anything in your car other than commute to work?  I like to go to baseball games 100 miles away, go to the beach thats 300 miles away, take the wife to New Orleans from time to time.  

If I'm dropping $75k on the Audi I'd like to do more than go to work in it.  Not trying to argue with anyone, but if I'm dropping $75k on a car I'd like to be able to use it in all situations. 

 
jb1020 said:
Do you guys not like to do anything in your car other than commute to work?  I like to go to baseball games 100 miles away, go to the beach thats 300 miles away, take the wife to New Orleans from time to time.  

If I'm dropping $75k on the Audi I'd like to do more than go to work in it.  Not trying to argue with anyone, but if I'm dropping $75k on a car I'd like to be able to use it in all situations. 
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I prefer to make my decisions on my normal usage pattern, not on something I like to do from "time to time."    

 
I don't know how anyone can say the eTron isn't a disappointment, and this is from a guy that has had many Audis.  I am a fan of the brand, but that kind of range out of that size battery is not good.

 
TSLA announced a $2B capital raise this morning; 1.35B in convertible bonds due in 2024, $650M new stock issuance. Stock is up $5 at the open today.

 
Foosball God said:
I don't know how anyone can say the eTron isn't a disappointment, and this is from a guy that has had many Audis.  I am a fan of the brand, but that kind of range out of that size battery is not good.
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Weight of the car matters. The Etron was pretty heavy.  It should be compared to the X

 
Betting against innovators who are changing the world has never been a winning strategy

The chyron labels Chamath Palihapitiya a Tesla Bull, which he clearly is, but he’s also a billionaire who was an early Facebook executive (2007-11.)

In 10 years FSD and autonomous ride shares will be common. Apple, Tesla and Waymo (Google) are well positioned to be leaders in that emerging market, but two of those three will have spend upwards of 100Bs to acquire their fleet. Tesla will already have their fleet on the road. Lyft & Uber are going to be the bad guys, displacing hundreds of thousands of employees. 

The future in the automotive industry will be driven by software development. I would not want to be betting on any traditional incumbents to adapt as efficiently to the changing landscape as Apple, Google & Tesla.

 
culdeus said:
The I3 was a great concept.  It was targeted straight at range anxious people. 

I am a little surprised the rest of industry is going PHEV instead. Volvo PHEV models are insane expensive. They could have gone this I route instead. 
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PHEV helps the "once in awhile" range anxiety and does not require building up a charging infrastructure.

But, one of the tremendous advantages of BEV is low maintenance. Having both battery and ICE is going the wrong way, IMO.

This may have changed, but before the Model 3, I was looking at PHEVs and my major disappointment was the all-electric range. Most were under 25 miles, which would not allow me to get to work and back on all-electric. What's the point?

 
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Foosball God said:
I don't know how anyone can say the eTron isn't a disappointment, and this is from a guy that has had many Audis.  I am a fan of the brand, but that kind of range out of that size battery is not good.
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Agreed. 

Further proves that Tesla is far ahead in battery tech.

 
culdeus said:
The I3 was a great concept.  It was targeted straight at range anxious people. 

I am a little surprised the rest of industry is going PHEV instead. Volvo PHEV models are insane expensive. They could have gone this I route instead. 
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So many of the PHEV models just seem like compliance offerings. I’ve read countless tales of people walking into a dealership & finding the salesman staff redirecting them to ICE vehicles instead of the BEV/PHEV sitting on the lot. Maybe that evolves over time, but when the Hyundai Kona is only sold in the US in the ZEV states, or the Audi E-Tron SUV will not even be inventoried at US dealers and will be special order only, makes you wonder about most OEMs commitment to electrification of their fleet.

 
BobbyLayne said:
So many of the PHEV models just seem like compliance offerings. I’ve read countless tales of people walking into a dealership & finding the salesman staff redirecting them to ICE vehicles instead of the BEV/PHEV sitting on the lot. Maybe that evolves over time, but when the Hyundai Kona is only sold in the US in the ZEV states, or the Audi E-Tron SUV will not even be inventoried at US dealers and will be special order only, makes you wonder about most OEMs commitment to electrification of their fleet.
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Most PHEV are compliance offerings for EU.  

Dealerships know that the maintenance fees on ICE are higher.  And maintenance actually drives sales.  

Volvo has seen 3x the demand they expected for PHEV even with the offerings they do have.  

 
culdeus said:
Most PHEV are compliance offerings for EU.  

Dealerships know that the maintenance fees on ICE are higher.  And maintenance actually drives sales.  

Volvo has seen 3x the demand they expected for PHEV even with the offerings they do have.  
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Maybe, I don’t really know the EU market that well. I do know the Renault Zoe was wildly popular & there were a couple dozen competitors to the M3 when they started delivering in February. They’ve been crushing it in the EU.

In China, BYD has pretty good head start and G3 just got a roof. I’ve heard production starts in the fall but 2020 seems more likely (but the build out of G3 has gone really fast - dunno if it’s less regulation or what but guess it’s quicker to go from nothing to production there than any other market.)

 
jb1020 said:
Do you guys not like to do anything in your car other than commute to work?  I like to go to baseball games 100 miles away, go to the beach thats 300 miles away, take the wife to New Orleans from time to time.  

If I'm dropping $75k on the Audi I'd like to do more than go to work in it.  Not trying to argue with anyone, but if I'm dropping $75k on a car I'd like to be able to use it in all situations. 
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I agree 100%. That is why I drive an F150. 

I can complete fill my charger in under 10 minutes at thousands of locations in North America, plus I have a 600 mile range. 

 
Nugget said:
I agree 100%. That is why I drive an F150. 

I can complete fill my charger in under 10 minutes at thousands of locations in North America, plus I have a 600 mile range. 
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What is this? Do you drive an electric as well?

 
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