Elephant in the room (1 Viewer)

[parasaurolophus]

Meltdowns have brought progressive advocacy groups to a standstill at a critical moment in history

. 

 

[parasaurolophus]

This is a great article. It touches on many of the things that are in several threads. Cancel culture, the aclu sucking (that's my biased reading of them), DEI issues, etc. 

Definitely worth plowing through it. Very long but worth it. 

 

[djmich]

Meltdowns have brought progressive advocacy groups to a standstill at a critical moment in history

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I just don’t think I’d call them meltdowns as much as their new standard operating procedures 

 

[IvanKaramazov]

For those who don't want to read the whole article, here's the problem summed up in one sentence:

For a number of obvious and intersecting reasons — my race, gender, and generation — I am not the perfect messenger. 

People who subscribe to this ideology can't evaluate arguments on their own merits any more.  Everything gets evaluated based on the identities of the speaker, the listener and and the other people involved.  

 

[FairWarning]

This is a great article. It touches on many of the things that are in several threads. Cancel culture, the aclu sucking (that's my biased reading of them), DEI issues, etc. 

Definitely worth plowing through it. Very long but worth it. 

Searching social media is paramount these days.  I’m not risking my company for some loud mouth who complains about their rights all day on FB.  I really don’t care how qualified they are.  I’ve seen it happen too many times in the last couple of years.

 

[AAABatteries]

The phrase cutting off your nose to spite your face comes to mind.

 

[Snotbubbles]

For those who don't want to read the whole article, here's the problem summed up in one sentence:

People who subscribe to this ideology can't evaluate arguments on their own merits any more.  Everything gets evaluated based on the identities of the speaker, the listener and and the other people involved.  

Similar to the arguments (if you want to call them that) here on these boards when someone attacks the source not the content.  

 

[Manster]

For those who don't want to read the whole article, here's the problem summed up in one sentence:

People who subscribe to this ideology can't evaluate arguments on their own merits any more.  Everything gets evaluated based on the identities of the speaker, the listener and and the other people involved.  

Want ever happened to being "color blind"?  I feel like that was how my generation (X) was raised.  We are a "melting pot" of different cultures and races to be celebrated......thats what I remember..... and that's how we are raising our kids......why did we regress back to qualifying race/gender/culture?  When did the shift happen?

 

[The Commish]

Want ever happened to being "color blind"?  I feel like that was how my generation (X) was raised.  We are a "melting pot" of different cultures and races to be celebrated......thats what I remember..... and that's how we are raising our kids......why did we regress back to qualifying race/gender/culture?  When did the shift happen?

It should be obvious that your "feeling" here is incorrect because if it were true, then we'd mostly be beyond the problems we see today.  There's no question some of us were raised that way.  Many of us weren't.  And I think that's largely true regardless of generation.

I was raised like you were.  We were a relative minority here in the south.

 

[parasaurolophus]

It should be obvious that your "feeling" here is incorrect because if it were true, then we'd mostly be beyond the problems we see today.  There's no question some of us were raised that way.  Many of us weren't.  And I think that's largely true regardless of generation.

I was raised like you were.  We were a relative minority here in the south.

My parents taught me 4 things.

1. Be Color blind

2. Dont be shallow

3. Have a free mind

4. Sometimes pay with cash even if you have good credit.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

This is a really nice article by the way.  Wokeness is toxic, and you can see how it messes up workplaces when you observe stuff like last week's dust-up at the Washington Post.  I hadn't realized how badly it was crippling non-profits, but that make sense.  

 

[Manster]

It should be obvious that your "feeling" here is incorrect because if it were true, then we'd mostly be beyond the problems we see today.  There's no question some of us were raised that way.  Many of us weren't.  And I think that's largely true regardless of generation.

I was raised like you were.  We were a relative minority here in the south.

What I'm saying is, I feel like that was the prevailing sentiment in pop culture when I was growing up.  I truly think that's the direction we were headed as a society.....Somewhere along the way the narrative shifted to what we have today.  I mostly blame over-educated liberal professors/authors who come up with #### like CRT.  It creates rage where none needs to be.  Instead of focusing on how far we've come, and the opportunities available, people focus on the past, and all the horrible stuff that happened

 

[BladeRunner]

Meltdowns have brought progressive advocacy groups to a standstill at a critical moment in history

It's classic Progressivism - they always turn on their own.  We've seen it throughout history, especially in early 20th century Russia, for example, where turning on each other was to show not only how loyal you were to the Party (or cause), but also a way to enrich yourself and/or your standing at the same time.  What better way to increase your standing AND getting rid of the people you don't like by accusing them of not passing the latest purity test?  Eventually, even they can never pass their own increasing purity tests.

This all stems from Socialism/Marxism/Communism and we've seen the disaster that has been on the world.  Anything thing that springs from that well needs to be stopped in it's tracks.  Good thing we can usually rely on them stopping themselves.

I, for one, am happy this is occurring.  Couldn't have happened to a better bunch of woke ideologues.  The world needs LESS of these type of people.

 

[The Commish]

What I'm saying is, I feel like that was the prevailing sentiment in pop culture when I was growing up.  I truly think that's the direction we were headed as a society.....Somewhere along the way the narrative shifted to what we have today.  I mostly blame over-educated liberal professors/authors who come up with #### like CRT.  It creates rage where none needs to be.  Instead of focusing on how far we've come, and the opportunities available, people focus on the past, and all the horrible stuff that happened

I understood exactly what you were saying.  What I am saying to you is what I see today isn't all that different (sans the social media influence throwing gas on the fire) than what I saw when I was younger.  You're clearly being exposed to things you weren't exposed to before (which is a good thing IMO).  I'm merely pointing out that these kinds of things have always been around.  I think about how mixed race relationships were treated.  I think about how same sex couples were treated.  I think about how single mothers were treated.  Right down the line...hell for me, in my area being "atheist" was worse than ALL that other stuff.  You say we've come a long way and I'd likely agree depending on the topic, but that doesn't mean we've arrived.  We still have a really long way to go.  And the different areas of the country are going to give different perspectives.

 

[djmich]

I understood exactly what you were saying.  What I am saying to you is what I see today isn't all that different (sans the social media influence throwing gas on the fire) than what I saw when I was younger.  You're clearly being exposed to things you weren't exposed to before (which is a good thing IMO).  I'm merely pointing out that these kinds of things have always been around.  I think about how mixed race relationships were treated.  I think about how same sex couples were treated.  I think about how single mothers were treated.  Right down the line...hell for me, in my area being "atheist" was worse than ALL that other stuff.  You say we've come a long way and I'd likely agree depending on the topic, but that doesn't mean we've arrived.  We still have a really long way to go.  And the different areas of the country are going to give different perspectives.

Catching up on this thread...I don't really see where Manster said or even implied "we arrived"?  I think his point was that we were headed in the right direction...and I think the data would support that and that it seems you would "likely agree".  I'm trying to figure out what you are disagreeing with him on?

 

[The Commish]

Catching up on this thread...I don't really see where Manster said or even implied "we arrived"?  I think his point was that we were headed in the right direction...and I think the data would support that and that it seems you would "likely agree".  I'm trying to figure out what you are disagreeing with him on?

I'm not suggesting he said or implied it.   I'm saying that as a statement of fact.  Just because we've come a long way doesn't mean we're where we need to be.  Primarily, my issue with his position is that it's anecdotal and clearly not how the entirety of the country was raised during that time.  It's not how the entirety of the country is being raised now.  Because of my experiences and seeing with my own eyes groups who weren't brought up that way and continue to not bring their kids up that way, I hesitate to suggest we are regressing as a country.  However, I understand how that would be his perception given how he was raised.  We can't "regress" if we weren't there in the first place, right?  I'm suggesting we, as a collective, aren't there and haven't been.  We continue to be a work in progress.  That he's now exposed to groups that he wasn't before isn't evidence of a regression.  It's evidence that his knowledge of our society as a whole is growing.  

 

[djmich]

I'm not suggesting he said or implied it.   I'm saying that as a statement of fact.  Just because we've come a long way doesn't mean we're where we need to be.  Primarily, my issue with his position is that it's anecdotal and clearly not how the entirety of the country was raised during that time.  It's not how the entirety of the country is being raised now.  Because of my experiences and seeing with my own eyes groups who weren't brought up that way and continue to not bring their kids up that way, I hesitate to suggest we are regressing as a country.  However, I understand how that would be his perception given how he was raised.  We can't "regress" if we weren't there in the first place, right?  I'm suggesting we, as a collective, aren't there and haven't been.  We continue to be a work in progress.  That he's now exposed to groups that he wasn't before isn't evidence of a regression.  It's evidence that his knowledge of our society as a whole is growing.  

I don't see Manster suggesting that being exposed to new groups is regression?  I don't see him saying we have regressed.  And I don't see why being color blind and treating people the same would run counter to being exposed to new groups?

I think there are some wires being crossed.  Seems to me all here would generally agree that we have progressed in terms of "acceptance".  Nobody has the data to claim that one method (color blind vs seeing color...as an example) is more effective than the other.  Or that we are progressing more now with one than we would have with the other.  Anything that would be asserted in terms of how we do things today is "anecdotal". 

What I see Manster saying (and what I think is a common argument in general) is that there are specific downsides we are witnessing with the shift to wokeism as a strategy.  Do those downsides net out positively vs the progress that would have been made without wokeism...we don't know because we're missing the datapoint to compare to.  I'd net them out to the negative based on gut.  I think we can guess the posters that would net them out negative vs positive...two sides to every position I suppose.

 

[The Commish]

I don't see Manster suggesting that being exposed to new groups is regression?  I don't see him saying we have regressed.  And I don't see why being color blind and treating people the same would run counter to being exposed to new groups?

I didn't say he did any of this.  

I think there are some wires being crossed.  Seems to me all here would generally agree that we have progressed in terms of "acceptance".  Nobody has the data to claim that one method (color blind vs seeing color...as an example) is more effective than the other.  Or that we are progressing more now with one than we would have with the other.  Anything that would be asserted in terms of how we do things today is "anecdotal". 

Wires are definitely crossed.  I don't think we have data to say "we" society has progressed on acceptance by any stretch.  I know pockets of the country have progressed.  Are there more pockets that have progressed than not?  I don't know.  I can give you a list of states where I feel we've not had any real meaningful shifts on a lot of this stuff.  We can point to the fact that laws have been instituted and rules created sure, but none of that is relevant to how individuals treat others around them IMO, which is what I thought was being talked about.  I've lived in the south 95% of my life and the general attitude hasn't changed all that much in my 47 years.  That said, the most racially charged place I've ever lived was Cincinnati Ohio back in the early 2000s.

What I see Manster saying (and what I think is a common argument in general) is that there are specific downsides we are witnessing with the shift to wokeism as a strategy.  Do those downsides net out positively vs the progress that would have been made without wokeism...we don't know because we're missing the datapoint to compare to.  I'd net them out to the negative based on gut.  I think we can guess the posters that would net them out negative vs positive...two sides to every position I suppose.

Yeah, I think the "wokeism" stuff is as equally toxic as the racist intolerance that has never been addressed.  It's the pendulum swinging the other way in the wake of that racist intolerance.  The likely landing place is somewhere between these two things, and I don't see a lot of areas in this country that have found the correct balance.

 

[djmich]

Wires are definitely crossed.  I don't think we have data to say "we" society has progressed on acceptance by any stretch.  I know pockets of the country have progressed.  Are there more pockets that have progressed than not?  I don't know.  I can give you a list of states where I feel we've not had any real meaningful shifts on a lot of this stuff.  We can point to the fact that laws have been instituted and rules created sure, but none of that is relevant to how individuals treat others around them IMO, which is what I thought was being talked about.  I've lived in the south 95% of my life and the general attitude hasn't changed all that much in my 47 years.  That said, the most racially charged place I've ever lived was Cincinnati Ohio back in the early 2000s.

Wow, I'm really surprised that you think attitudes in the south haven't changed much in nearly 50yrs.  I'm sure there are datapoints that would help confirm or deny that, but would require a little bit of digging.

I lived in the Northeast (LI-NY) the bulk of my life and GA (purplish GA not deep red GA) the last seven.  I can say definitively that I see attitudes towards race are much more harmonized here than there.

 

[The Commish]

@djmich

Just to sum up the exchange...the below is what I was responding to:

Want ever happened to being "color blind"?  I feel like that was how my generation (X) was raised.  We are a "melting pot" of different cultures and races to be celebrated......thats what I remember..... and that's how we are raising our kids......why did we regress back to qualifying race/gender/culture?  When did the shift happen?

When he says "we" here, I'm assuming he means society as a whole.  I was merely pointing out that society as a whole shouldn't be based on his personal anecdote.  If he wants to qualify with "here in the northwest" or some such, It'd make a lot more sense IMO.  There are TONS of places all over this country that continue to qualify people on race/gender/culture.  Whether implicitly or explicitly doesn't really matter.  What matters is how people are treated...at least to me.  So in a lot of places where he's seeing as a shift locally has been SOP for decades.  That's all I'm trying to say.

 

[djmich]

@djmich

Just to sum up the exchange...the below is what I was responding to:

When he says "we" here, I'm assuming he means society as a whole.  I was merely pointing out that society as a whole shouldn't be based on his personal anecdote.  If he wants to qualify with "here in the northwest" or some such, It'd make a lot more sense IMO.  There are TONS of places all over this country that continue to qualify people on race/gender/culture.  Whether implicitly or explicitly doesn't really matter.  What matters is how people are treated...at least to me.  So in a lot of places where he's seeing as a shift locally has been SOP for decades.  That's all I'm trying to say.

Gotcha.  I think thats fair.  No doubt different geographies and other demographics with different perspectives or raised differently.  I do think there is some level of seepage on things like this across the nation (NY may be 80% one direction and Alabama only 30%)...but understand your overall point.

 

[The Commish]

Wow, I'm really surprised that you think attitudes in the south haven't changed much in nearly 50yrs.  I'm sure there are datapoints that would help confirm or deny that, but would require a little bit of digging.

I lived in the Northeast (LI-NY) the bulk of my life and GA (purplish GA not deep red GA) the last seven.  I can say definitively that I see attitudes towards race are much more harmonized here than there.

Sounds like you're lucky and in a pocket where the change is more prevalent.  Make no mistake about it....words have definitely changed.  What is said and how it's said has definitely changed.  The actions in a BUNCH of places still remain.  In my view, all we've done with our laws is force those who aren't going to change into the darkness of silence.  Their general attitudes remain.  In short (if not too late..hahaha) I don't think we've made NEARLY the progress nationally that some would like to believe.

 

[djmich]

Sounds like you're lucky and in a pocket where the change is more prevalent.  Make no mistake about it....words have definitely changed.  What is said and how it's said has definitely changed.  The actions in a BUNCH of places still remain.  In my view, all we've done with our laws is force those who aren't going to change into the darkness of silence.  Their general attitudes remain.  

You're depressing me man.  Let me cheer you up.  Interracial marriage acceptance.  Since only 1991 approval in the south has increased from 33% to 93%.  That seems like something the celebrate?

 

[The Commish]

You're depressing me man.  Let me cheer you up.  Interracial marriage acceptance.  Since only 1991 approval in the south has increased from 33% to 93%.  That seems like something the celebrate?

Of course...interracial marriage was impacted in a major way by gay marriage in the south.  If you look at this, you realize that from the 1960s til the 90s approval was still in the 30s range or below.  It'd likely be a similar number had the gay marriage advances not been made.

 

[djmich]

Of course...interracial marriage was impacted in a major way by gay marriage in the south.  If you look at this, you realize that from the 1960s til the 90s approval was still in the 30s range or below.  It'd likely be a similar number had the gay marriage advances not been made.

Wait what...can you clarify?  Interracial marriage improvements are an outcome of gay marriage or coincided with gay marriage?  If there were no gay people interracial marriage approval in the South would be unchanged?  Is the hypothesis the same for the North, which also made a tremendous improvement?  Help!

 

[The Commish]

Wait what...can you clarify?  Interracial marriage improvements are an outcome of gay marriage or coincided with gay marriage?  If there were no gay people interracial marriage approval in the South would be unchanged?  Is the hypothesis the same for the North, which also made a tremendous improvement?  Help!

Outcome?  I wouldn't say that....coincide?  Absolutely.  I think they were helped in a major way by the gay marriage fights.  There is NO question that gay marriage was accepted at a significantly faster rate than same sex marriage.  Look at it this way.  Interracial marriage became law in 1967.  We didn't hit majority approval on it until around 1995 and even then we are talking 50.1/49.9 split.  Conversely, 2011 we hit majority approval of same sex marriage and it became law in 2015. 

 

[djmich]

Outcome?  I wouldn't say that....coincide?  Absolutely.  I think they were helped in a major way by the gay marriage fights.  There is NO question that gay marriage was accepted at a significantly faster rate than same sex marriage.  Look at it this way.  Interracial marriage became law in 1967.  We didn't hit majority approval on it until around 1995 and even then we are talking 50.1/49.9 split.  Conversely, 2011 we hit majority approval of same sex marriage and it became law in 2015. 

I dunno man, I'm having a hard time separating correlation and causation here.  Here's what I would say in two summary points.

Across the timeframe you have here or the original 50yr timeframe I feel confident that beliefs across the entire spectrum of social issues improved in the South.  Positive for race.  Positive for LBTQ.  Positive for atheism (or maybe better said less fundamentalist).  Less toxic masculinity (lol).  Did they all help each other and make the snowball grow in size as it gained in momentum...maybe, probably?  Which brings me to my second point.

Who gives a ####.  Maybe global warming contributed, maybe the internet contributed.  Maybe the idea of being coloblind and treating people as equals contributed.  Its progress.  Its statistically very significant.  In the north as well.  I think this is the original point you made that I couldn't understand.

 

[The Commish]

I dunno man, I'm having a hard time separating correlation and causation here.  Here's what I would say in two summary points.

Across the timeframe you have here or the original 50yr timeframe I feel confident that beliefs across the entire spectrum of social issues improved in the South.  Positive for race.  Positive for LBTQ.  Positive for atheism (or maybe better said less fundamentalist).  Less toxic masculinity (lol).  Did they all help each other and make the snowball grow in size as it gained in momentum...maybe, probably?  Which brings me to my second point.

Who gives a ####.  Maybe global warming contributed, maybe the internet contributed.  Maybe the idea of being coloblind and treating people as equals contributed.  Its progress.  Its statistically very significant.  In the north as well.  I think this is the original point you made that I couldn't understand.

I guess to make the point clearer, I'll say I agree with the bold.  Things have improved.  By the same token, the only direction they could go was up in most of these cases we were talking about.  This has been very much framing similar to one advertising a "50% increase" only to look at the raw number and see that it went from 2 to 3.  And I'll take every bit of progress I can get, but I'm going to absolutely reserve pats on the back for meaningful shifts.  

 

[djmich]

I guess to make the point clearer, I'll say I agree with the bold.  Things have improved.  By the same token, the only direction they could go was up in most of these cases we were talking about.  This has been very much framing similar to one advertising a "50% increase" only to look at the raw number and see that it went from 2 to 3.  And I'll take every bit of progress I can get, but I'm going to absolutely reserve pats on the back for meaningful shifts.  

Cmon man, 33% approve racial intermarriage to 93% is not meaningful?  

 

[The Commish]

Cmon man, 33% approve racial intermarriage to 93% is not meaningful?  

It took 50+ years to get to that point and it was baby steps at times, dragged kicking and screaming at others.  I fully admit I am jaded towards the way my part of the country deals with these issues.  Living in it for 40+ years wears on you when you see what the right thing is (even as a kid) and it still takes that long.  On the flip side, I am completely dumbfounded knowing what I know about the south and our attitude towards anything we see as "different" how we embraced gay marriage so quickly.  That shows me it can happen here and just solidifies in my mind that race issues continue to run deep in this part of the country.

 

[The Commish]

I'm not sure how much you and I would see things eye to eye.  Maybe more than I would expect......  Either way, I appreciate this response.  I believe the biggest issue we face as a society is lack of parents setting the standard for their children to follow.  Or they set the standard very low and allow their kids to just go out into the wilderness not well equipped.

I can only go by what you tell me on how you were raised.  Based on the below, this is exactly how I was raised.  I was in a very TINY minority here in the southeast, but that's how I was taught and this is what I teach my kids.

Want ever happened to being "color blind"?  I feel like that was how my generation (X) was raised.  We are a "melting pot" of different cultures and races to be celebrated......thats what I remember..... and that's how we are raising our kids......why did we regress back to qualifying race/gender/culture?  When did the shift happen?

Where we likely differ is that I don't get caught up in what "society" is doing.  That's generally out of my control.  I only have control over what we do in our house, so that's my focus.  Worrying about anyone else seems like a complete waste of time for me.  People choose their own paths as they see fit for their families, whatever.  That doesn't impact my family at all.  We go out of our way to make sure our kids are defined by expectations within the family and the family alone...especially when it comes to "social norms".  We teach them to embrace being different in the situations where they are and to not be ashamed of it.  They too are in a minority around here being taught those sorts of things.