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Ernie Accorsi's 2004 draft day trade to get Eli (1 Viewer)
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Jimmy James
Footballguy
I don't think I can quite agree with that reasoning. This win certainly makes the trade something that is a lot easier to defend, but the Giants still passed on the championship winning Big Ben and on what appears to be a darn good Rivers to take a Manning who still has to be considered streaky. I don't think it's going to be easy to rate that trade until all the players involved have completed careers.
Reality Football
Footballguy
Accorsi certainly got lucky in this respect. Playoff Eli had some kind of video game secret cheat code that kept him from turning the ball over.
Reality Football
Footballguy
Agreed. At the very least, though, 1 SB win means that the trade can never be called a bust.
My point is that right now, no member in the Giants organization would go back in time and not follow through with the trade.
Jimmy James
Footballguy
I don't think I buy that. I think if you tell the Giants they can have Eli or they can have Ben and Merriman, they easily go for Ben and Merriman.
NY/NJMFDIVER
Footballguy
Eli and Acorsi hereby have nothing to prove to ANYONE anymore. I wouldn't trade him for any QB in that draft right now, and while Merriman is tempting, I think Eli showed some real grit through his struggles and he's finally found a home here now.
Rings are all that really matters at the end of day. Eli was a major reason they won a ring, a worthy Super Bowl MVP, and until Rivers can say that, the OP is right on.
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Jimmy James
Footballguy
I really don't know about that. If you dismiss the possibility of Ben, I think you can argue that for now. The second Rivers and the Chargers win a Super Bowl, I think it goes right out the window.
Completely disagree. First off, the Giants would have had those picks, but no one knows who they would have taken. Secondly, what we do know is they took Eli and got a Super bowl title within 4 years. Why mess with success?
pinda
Footballguy
lol you just made my point for me, IF San Diego wins a championship, then they are on even terms, who cares about IFs and WHENs, the fact is NOW the Giants won, the fact is NOW Eli Manning is a Superbowl winning, Superbowl MVP QB. Eli played very, very well and I for one give the man his credit.
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
As an aside, you guys should check out Acorsi's book entitled "The GM". It's really interesting.
Acorsi chronicals the 2006 season, and he details in individual chapters how he came to acquire Manning and Burress. Plax was everything he was looking for in a big receiver, and they worked out a deal. He went to see Manning in person during Eli's junior season at Ole Miss when they were playing a far more talented Auburn team. Eli had the Rebels in the game until the end, and Acorsi said he basically did it by himself. We see in the book the actual notes he took on Manning that day and at the combine in regards to his poise, calmness and great arm. A really good read if you get a chance.
Acorsi chronicals the 2006 season, and he details in individual chapters how he came to acquire Manning and Burress. Plax was everything he was looking for in a big receiver, and they worked out a deal. He went to see Manning in person during Eli's junior season at Ole Miss when they were playing a far more talented Auburn team. Eli had the Rebels in the game until the end, and Acorsi said he basically did it by himself. We see in the book the actual notes he took on Manning that day and at the combine in regards to his poise, calmness and great arm. A really good read if you get a chance.
Eli/Umenyiora is at least equal to Ben/Merriman so I think that's a wash.
BaBastage
Footballguy
I can't comment on whether or not it was a good trade.
And kudos to Eli for playing as well as he did today; I don't take anything away from him. He and his team deserved the win.
But in my mind that doesn't erase the insolent b.s. he showed by vocally dissing the Chargers back then. When you're the first round pick, getting paid the big bucks, you go play where the chips fall, and prove you're worth it.
Part of me is saddened to see bad behavior rewarded like this. Same thing goes for Randy Moss, as I've said on this board few times. Getting rewarded for having a bad attitude is not something we want to promote in our sports heroes.
And kudos to Eli for playing as well as he did today; I don't take anything away from him. He and his team deserved the win.
But in my mind that doesn't erase the insolent b.s. he showed by vocally dissing the Chargers back then. When you're the first round pick, getting paid the big bucks, you go play where the chips fall, and prove you're worth it.
Part of me is saddened to see bad behavior rewarded like this. Same thing goes for Randy Moss, as I've said on this board few times. Getting rewarded for having a bad attitude is not something we want to promote in our sports heroes.
Koya
Footballguy
Eli was the most important offensive piece - BY FAR - for the Giants getting this superbowl.
He was the SB MVP.
He was the playoff MVP.
If you make a trade and someone says "within 5 years you will win a SB with the guy you trade for (at however high a price)" you SIGN instantly.
Yes, trade is suddenly justified and you can't much question it at this point. Everything else is a HUGE if.
Eli winning a Super Bowl for the Giants is reality.
He was the SB MVP.
He was the playoff MVP.
If you make a trade and someone says "within 5 years you will win a SB with the guy you trade for (at however high a price)" you SIGN instantly.
Yes, trade is suddenly justified and you can't much question it at this point. Everything else is a HUGE if.
Eli winning a Super Bowl for the Giants is reality.
Neil Beaufort Zod
Footballguy
It's kind of sad how fans ape the lines fed to them by athletes like merchandise-wearing parrots. "All that matters is championships. Nothing matters but winning. Wins and losses are all that count."Like sportsmanship is meaningless, class is meaningless, playing your best is meaningless. I have to end up rooting for guys like Tony Dungy to get rings so they'll actually get credit for something. And guys like Moss would be vindicated for playing when they feel like it if they get a ring.
I think both Eli and Rivers have proven to be worth where they were drafted. Rivers certainly showed me a lot in the game against New England, and Eli has cemented his career with a Super Bowl victory.
Then again, so did Trent Dilfer. He has more rings than Dan Marino, right?
pinda
Footballguy
What did Rivers show you when he was mocking Cutler for no real reason then getting into it with the Indy fans? Rivers attitude is piss poor at best. Couldn't be happier now that debate of Eli vs. Rivers is over.
It's kind of sad how fans ape the lines fed to them by athletes like merchandise-wearing parrots. "All that matters is championships. Nothing matters but winning. Wins and losses are all that count."
Like sportsmanship is meaningless, class is meaningless, playing your best is meaningless. I have to end up rooting for guys like Tony Dungy to get rings so they'll actually get credit for something. And guys like Moss would be vindicated for playing when they feel like it if they get a ring.
I think both Eli and Rivers have proven to be worth where they were drafted. Rivers certainly showed me a lot in the game against New England, and Eli has cemented his career with a Super Bowl victory.
Then again, so did Trent Dilfer. He has more rings than Dan Marino, right?
KnowledgeReignsSupreme
Footballguy
Lots of results oriented justification going on here.
encaitar
Footballguy
What other kind of justification is there? They made the trade thinking Eli gave them a better chance at winning a title and apparently they were right.All justification is results orientated. If NE got a first down on their 4th and 13 play everyone would've been talking about how it was a great gutsy play, rather than a boneheaded one.
DanFouts
Footballguy
Accorsi is vindicated by Eli's SB ring. I read the book and really came away with a better understanding/respect of Accorsi. Love the part when he's giving his farewell speech and says "I truly believe that there is a championship in this room". How true his words are today. He also vehemently defended the Eli pick and said he would definitely do it all again if he had the chance.Raider Nation said:
Neil Beaufort Zod
Footballguy
You'll have a few more birthdays before that debate is over. Both are up-and-coming QBs. You want to call the game in the proverbial first quarters of their careers? Okay, but excuse the rest of us for enjoying watching them develop.And what does "no real reason" mean? If they're trash-talking, he can't do some back? What's a "real reason?"What did Rivers show you when he was mocking Cutler for no real reason then getting into it with the Indy fans? Rivers attitude is piss poor at best. Couldn't be happier now that debate of Eli vs. Rivers is over.
It's kind of sad how fans ape the lines fed to them by athletes like merchandise-wearing parrots. "All that matters is championships. Nothing matters but winning. Wins and losses are all that count."
Like sportsmanship is meaningless, class is meaningless, playing your best is meaningless. I have to end up rooting for guys like Tony Dungy to get rings so they'll actually get credit for something. And guys like Moss would be vindicated for playing when they feel like it if they get a ring.
I think both Eli and Rivers have proven to be worth where they were drafted. Rivers certainly showed me a lot in the game against New England, and Eli has cemented his career with a Super Bowl victory.
Then again, so did Trent Dilfer. He has more rings than Dan Marino, right?
Koya
Footballguy
In business and sport, Ill take results everytime.
Donnybrook
Footballguy
Smart of the Giants to "buy back" Mannings contract. Could you imagine how much money he could demand if they let him become a free agent?
http://nflbiz.blogspot.com/2007/03/giants-...i-mannings.html
I still don't think it was a great trade for either party. Talk to me about Eli when he has done it consistantly. Right now he could be Dilfer or Brady...time will tell. The reality is that the Eli played a good game which a dozen different QBs in the league could have and had a great defense effort backing him up.
For those of you who think this game made all the difference in determining the outcome of the trade...I guess the dropped INT was a huge factor.
For those of you who think this game made all the difference in determining the outcome of the trade...I guess the dropped INT was a huge factor.
Neil Beaufort Zod
Footballguy
I disagree about it not being a great trade. It was. I think Eli wouldn't have been as good in San Diego, and Rivers wouldn't have been as good in NY. I think it's pretty amazing that both were heralded draft-day QBs and neither are busts. Both are playoff QBs, and have won tough games.I'm sure the Giants wouldn't trade back, but I don't think the Chargers would, either. Not right now. I really doubt Eli would have taken the Chargers farther than Rivers did. The chemistry in NY was special this year. You can't just plug it into another team. I think with Tiki, the Giants wouldn't have done as well even though he's better than Jacobs. Same with Shockey. Eli leaned on them too much, and needed this to grow into his own.
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BoltBacker
Footballguy
I agree, you make the trade thinking it will win a SB for you and that's just what they did.I don't think you can give enough credit to the NY defense though. The Pat's score 37ppg and hadn't scored less than 20 points all season long, have two weeks to prepare for a rematch with the team that they just lit up for 38 about a month ago.... and hold them to 14. A truly amazing feat. That was the single biggest shock of the game.BTW I'm not saying Eli shouldn't have gotten MVP, he certainly should have and was the single best player in the game, but that defense as a unit is the biggest reason NY won that game. I'm eating a lot of crow for some of the things I've said about Coughlin/Gilbride in the past. I was never one to dog Eli but I really felt he would never improve dramatically until he got another coaching staff to work with.Congrats Koya, we've gone 'round and 'round over the trade several times over the years.
BoltBacker
Footballguy
Wouldn't you be happier if Leinart was half the QB of either of them?
Reaper
Footballguy
Also not a Giants fan But, I've always been more optimistic about Eli than most, even Giants fans.. Then again I missed the Vikings game this year.....I don't get the "Turning the corner" thing... It actually takes 4 years + for an NFL Qb to develop. All along I thought Eli was right on track.. What,. only Farve is allowed to throw multiple picks and still be considered good? I think we often lose site of how long it takes to develop. Yeah, a few guys have a pocket prescence and make it look easier earlier in their careers but, if we go back and discuss most of the greats, it took some time. time we no longer give young QB's too often.I think Eli's upside is sky high.. I think people see a few bad plays and think they can put a ceiling on someone's career (ehh, he doesn't have "it") when you have a family football man here that is pretty much guaranteed to work the whole offseason on getting better - I don't know if you can say that about every other young developing QB out there. I'm not sure a Romo and/or Rivers put the work in Eli will.You have a QB with an arm that can make every throw and the willingness to work his tail off... Hey, I wish my team had that.But, yeah, no doubt Eli will have some Favre like games of whacky throws and picks.. and people will pile on.GordonGekko said:
Banger
Footballguy
So does that mean the Chargers would have won if they didn't make the trade? I think not.
Manning was a piece of the puzzle, no doubt but do we know that Rothlisberger/Rivers couldn't have done just as well if not better? The Giants TEAM won the SB not Manning. He wins nothing if that defense doesn't dominate.
If Assante Samuel comes down with Manning's air ball on the last drive this thread doesn't exist.
Manning was a piece of the puzzle, no doubt but do we know that Rothlisberger/Rivers couldn't have done just as well if not better? The Giants TEAM won the SB not Manning. He wins nothing if that defense doesn't dominate.
If Assante Samuel comes down with Manning's air ball on the last drive this thread doesn't exist.
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Banger
Footballguy
I would still take him over Manning in heartbeat. NFL or FF wise.
harrycarey
Footballguy
Some of you guys have to be joking. Saying Manning hasn't shown anything because he got lucky that Samuel dropped the INT, or the defense won it for them.. or he looked shaky on the last drive.
There are dropped picks in every game. The defense played a huge part, but I don't remember people taking anything away from Brady after his first Ring when the rest of his team played as big or a bigger part than himself.
He looked shaky on the last drive? Or you kidding me? He drove his team down for a game-winning TD against the "best team ever" and made some great plays along the way. Haven't all of Brady's game-winning drives been in tie games where he only needed a field goal?
There are dropped picks in every game. The defense played a huge part, but I don't remember people taking anything away from Brady after his first Ring when the rest of his team played as big or a bigger part than himself.
He looked shaky on the last drive? Or you kidding me? He drove his team down for a game-winning TD against the "best team ever" and made some great plays along the way. Haven't all of Brady's game-winning drives been in tie games where he only needed a field goal?
Banger
Footballguy
I don't think he was shaky and he made vast improvements over the last 6 games. My only points were there's a very fine line between winning and losing and you can't use one game/season to evaluate a player. Wasn't his brother a choker that couldn't win the big game for years despite being the best QB in the game for years? He did a great job and I'm happy for him and the Giants but IMO he's not all the sudden a great QB.
Liquid Tension
Footballguy
I can't agree with this. Rings are not the only judgment of who is better. My God, Roethlisberger had a horrible performance and he won a ring, why does that make him better than Eli if Brady threw an 80 yard TD to win the SB in teh final 30 seconds? Football is a team game and winning a title is NEVER just because of one player. He could be a strong contributor, but let's not think that Eli is great now OR that he was bad before. The Giant OL protected him MUCH better in the last 5 weeks of the year. The Giants receivers started to get healthy the last weeks of the year as Plax couldn't cut at all for the middle of the year. Steve Smith was out almost the entire year, Shockey was weak when he played and it took until the latter part of the year for Boss to get playing time. You saw how much harder it was for Brady to play QB when he was getting his head handed to him, the line play and receiver play is a big part of how a QB plays. the Giants led the league in drops this year, but Eli was getting blamed. The team starts making catches like Tyree and Eli is a hero.Perspective seems to be lost on everyone. Eli is an above average QB, probably around top 10. I am in the minority but I don't see a huge transformation that is being put on Eli, I always thought he was always pretty good and showing some small strides getting better (to be expected). The defense played great and they won a lot of games in a row. People saying he is showing great courage NOW weren't watching his 4th quarter comebacks after either playing poorly or getting his head knocked off repeatedly in the past. The difference is that they are winning so people overlook some of the plays that were not that great (such as the Samuel almost pick)Read my sig that has been on there all year...if Eli's pass to Tyree gets picked off, people are screaming about what a dumb pass it was and how great Brady was showing courage after repeatedly getting knocked down to drive his team down field for the winning drive. Even if the final pass to Plax was picked, people would say the difference in the game was Brady over Manning...FOOTBALL IS A TEAM GAME where the QB is the largest component.Sigmund Bloom said:Popinski said:
Banger
Footballguy
veryI can't agree with this. Rings are not the only judgment of who is better. My God, Roethlisberger had a horrible performance and he won a ring, why does that make him better than Eli if Brady threw an 80 yard TD to win the SB in teh final 30 seconds? Football is a team game and winning a title is NEVER just because of one player. He could be a strong contributor, but let's not think that Eli is great now OR that he was bad before. The Giant OL protected him MUCH better in the last 5 weeks of the year. The Giants receivers started to get healthy the last weeks of the year as Plax couldn't cut at all for the middle of the year. Steve Smith was out almost the entire year, Shockey was weak when he played and it took until the latter part of the year for Boss to get playing time. You saw how much harder it was for Brady to play QB when he was getting his head handed to him, the line play and receiver play is a big part of how a QB plays. the Giants led the league in drops this year, but Eli was getting blamed. The team starts making catches like Tyree and Eli is a hero.Perspective seems to be lost on everyone. Eli is an above average QB, probably around top 10. I am in the minority but I don't see a huge transformation that is being put on Eli, I always thought he was always pretty good and showing some small strides getting better (to be expected). The defense played great and they won a lot of games in a row. People saying he is showing great courage NOW weren't watching his 4th quarter comebacks after either playing poorly or getting his head knocked off repeatedly in the past. The difference is that they are winning so people overlook some of the plays that were not that great (such as the Samuel almost pick)Read my sig that has been on there all year...if Eli's pass to Tyree gets picked off, people are screaming about what a dumb pass it was and how great Brady was showing courage after repeatedly getting knocked down to drive his team down field for the winning drive. Even if the final pass to Plax was picked, people would say the difference in the game was Brady over Manning...FOOTBALL IS A TEAM GAME where the QB is the largest component.Sigmund Bloom said:Popinski said:
couldn't agree more...
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
I'm reminded of a Ron Wolf quote following the Packers' superbowl loss to Denver:
Accorsi was right to acquire Eli. Eli was right to spurn San Diego for NY. That's the way it works, like it or not; the scoreboard determines right and wrong.
Banger
Footballguy
So if Favre goes down in OT and scores, the trade is still not a good trade but he throws an INT and Tynes kicks a FG and the trade is justified.
Despyzer
Lousy Attention Whore
Mods - can we get this pinned for about a week or two?
Holy Schneikes
Footballguy
This "reasoning" is VERY faulty. Yes, Manning looked good in the playoffs. Yes, he was a HUGE part of the team winning a SuperBowl. But that does NOT mean that the trade to get him was necessarily a "good trade". I'm not saying it WASN'T a good trade, I'm just saying that logic is weak.
Maybe if they had Rivers, they'd have 3 SuperBowls by now. Maybe they won despite the trade. Maybe they could have gotten Manning later for less. Maybe one of their OTHER acquisitions was much more directly responsible for the SuperBowl. We just don't know.
It's very easy to say right now, right after a championship, that all is well with the world and everything the Giants have done in the last 4 years was perfect. But the fact is that the Giants were a wild-card team, and could easily have missed the playoffs altogether this year. Despite Manning's good play in the last half of the season, their defense was the reason they got into and through the playoffs.
Let's say Baltimore had to give up 4 1st round picks to get Dilfer. Would that have been a good trade? They got a ring right? That all that matters right? I'm taking things to an extreme to prove a point, but the simple fact is that one ring based on a gazillion factors doesn't AUTOMATICALLY vindicate/validate every decision the team made 4 years ago. It certainly HELPS, but you guys are making big leaps. It's quite possible that the Giants COULD have gotten their ring with a different QB and it's also POSSIBLE that the Giants could have gotten that ring and be in an even better position if that trade hadn't gone down. Again, I'm not saying that IS the case, I'm just saying the SuperBowl win doesn't PROVE the opposite is true either.
Now I'm sure I'll hear a bunch of "Yeah, but you are talking about POSSIBILITIES vs an actual ring, I'll take the actual ring every time". In HINDSIGHT, yeah most would make the trade and take the ring, but that's not the same thing as saying the trade was great AT THE TIME since we just don't know what the alternative would have been.
Maybe if they had Rivers, they'd have 3 SuperBowls by now. Maybe they won despite the trade. Maybe they could have gotten Manning later for less. Maybe one of their OTHER acquisitions was much more directly responsible for the SuperBowl. We just don't know.
It's very easy to say right now, right after a championship, that all is well with the world and everything the Giants have done in the last 4 years was perfect. But the fact is that the Giants were a wild-card team, and could easily have missed the playoffs altogether this year. Despite Manning's good play in the last half of the season, their defense was the reason they got into and through the playoffs.
Let's say Baltimore had to give up 4 1st round picks to get Dilfer. Would that have been a good trade? They got a ring right? That all that matters right? I'm taking things to an extreme to prove a point, but the simple fact is that one ring based on a gazillion factors doesn't AUTOMATICALLY vindicate/validate every decision the team made 4 years ago. It certainly HELPS, but you guys are making big leaps. It's quite possible that the Giants COULD have gotten their ring with a different QB and it's also POSSIBLE that the Giants could have gotten that ring and be in an even better position if that trade hadn't gone down. Again, I'm not saying that IS the case, I'm just saying the SuperBowl win doesn't PROVE the opposite is true either.
Now I'm sure I'll hear a bunch of "Yeah, but you are talking about POSSIBILITIES vs an actual ring, I'll take the actual ring every time". In HINDSIGHT, yeah most would make the trade and take the ring, but that's not the same thing as saying the trade was great AT THE TIME since we just don't know what the alternative would have been.
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CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
correct - "Winners can say whatever they want to say. Losers can only lament what might have been." That's the way it works, like it or not; the scoreboard determines right and wrong.
Just like Fantasy football if your going to succeed yearly you can't simply be focused on results after the fact to judge whether you should or shouldn't have made trades. If some one offered you S. Jackson for Ryan Grant at the beginning of the year you take it. The reason you take it is based of everything reasonably predictable you've made a good trade. That doesn't change at the end of the year just because things didn't work out. If the situation comes around again next you have to make that kind of trade again because the odds are so in your favor to win.
The Giants gave away a lot for Eli. I think that gave away to much but never thought it was an awful trade, just not in their favor. It worked out for them but if they continued to make these types of trades the odds are that they would become a worse team for making them.
The Giants gave away a lot for Eli. I think that gave away to much but never thought it was an awful trade, just not in their favor. It worked out for them but if they continued to make these types of trades the odds are that they would become a worse team for making them.
Koya
Footballguy
The fact is, it's pretty easy to judge this trade from a Giant perspective. Everything you do - trades, FA signings, everything - is for one primary goal. To win a championship.Eli lead the Giants to a championship, and if the Defense was reason #1, eli was #1a during the past month. You can't overpay if you end up with a championship imo.
Koya
Footballguy
Of course this is hindsight. ALL trades are judged in hindsight because when they are made, no one knows the real implications.If, when making the trade, someone told me that under eli we would make the playoffs three straight years culminating in a Super Bowl, I'd have signed for that without question.
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