Espn reporting Goodell confirmed Patriots using camera (1 Viewer)

[Marc Levin]

Eric Mangini, the "boy genius" of the staff under Belichick in prior years not only principally benefited from this scheme and propped up his resume with the results, but as soon as he was on the other end of it, turned around and ratted out his former mentor.IMO, that's just as dirty as what Belichick did in the first place.

Thanks - you just made my morning. I now have seen two of the silliest justifications for this cheating ever.

Stop right there... Use some reading comprehension.I'm NOT JUSTIFYING ANYTHING. Read the whole quote. Belichick and the Patriots are guilty. It's inexcusable to knowingly break the rules like this. It's embarrassing for the whole team and its fans. They deserve whatever punishment the league hands down. PERIOD.All I'm saying is that IF this was going on during the whole Patriots title run, every member of the coaching staff and every player is in some way tainted by this whole mess. Including Mangini who apparently knew enough about the scheme to blow the whistle, according to the Daily News article. Read the piece, Marc.

Even if that's the case, what is an assistant supposed to do about it? BB runs the ship and everyone knows how he runs it, his way or the highway. IF Mangini was on board he would have/could have started his own covert operation to mimic what the Pats were doing instead of reportedly "ratting him out".

Hey, I'm not saying what Mangini should have done or shouldn't have done. All I'm saying is that his career was boosted by the success of the Patriot franchise. His career arc came as the result of the success of the Belichick regime winning games year after year. Here's one thing that continues to baffle me: If Mangini knew that this whole thing was going on in the first place, what advantage could the Patriots have gotten on the Jets by continuing to videotape the playcalls? If Mangini knew the Pats were doing this, doesn't he send out scores of dummy calls to mix it up, like most teams do when they think someone has their signs?

Actually, what you said was that by getting ahead on the backs of the Pats' success, somehow Mangini was "as dirty" as his former head coach when he "ratted" him out. Meanwhile, only Belichick directly benefited from the cheating. My objection is not that you criticize Mangini for benefiting from being in an organization that was involved in cheating, but in you stating that doing so makes him "as dirty" as belichick. That assertion is, IMO, totally indefensible.

 

[Banger]

Here's one thing that continues to baffle me: If Mangini knew that this whole thing was going on in the first place, what advantage could the Patriots have gotten on the Jets by continuing to videotape the playcalls? If Mangini knew the Pats were doing this, doesn't he send out scores of dummy calls to mix it up, like most teams do when they think someone has their signs?

Who knows...I don't know how hard/easy it is to mix signs with dummy calls, etc. maybe they did use dummy calls and the taping did no good at all. The fact is that Mangini and the Jets were looking for it and assisted in catching them redhanded, whether those signals helped the Pats in this particular may never be known. They did get busted though and that's all that really matters at the end of the day.

 

[BusMan]

Eric Mangini, the "boy genius" of the staff under Belichick in prior years not only principally benefited from this scheme and propped up his resume with the results, but as soon as he was on the other end of it, turned around and ratted out his former mentor.

IMO, that's just as dirty as what Belichick did in the first place.

Thanks - you just made my morning. I now have seen two of the silliest justifications for this cheating ever.

Stop right there... Use some reading comprehension.I'm NOT JUSTIFYING ANYTHING. Read the whole quote. Belichick and the Patriots are guilty. It's inexcusable to knowingly break the rules like this. It's embarrassing for the whole team and its fans. They deserve whatever punishment the league hands down. PERIOD.

All I'm saying is that IF this was going on during the whole Patriots title run, every member of the coaching staff and every player is in some way tainted by this whole mess. Including Mangini who apparently knew enough about the scheme to blow the whistle, according to the Daily News article. Read the piece, Marc.

There's a big difference between

...just as dirty as what Belichick did...

and

...every member of the coaching staff and every player is in some way tainted by this whole mess.

 

[Workhorse]

Eric Mangini, the "boy genius" of the staff under Belichick in prior years not only principally benefited from this scheme and propped up his resume with the results, but as soon as he was on the other end of it, turned around and ratted out his former mentor.IMO, that's just as dirty as what Belichick did in the first place.

Thanks - you just made my morning. I now have seen two of the silliest justifications for this cheating ever.

Stop right there... Use some reading comprehension.I'm NOT JUSTIFYING ANYTHING. Read the whole quote. Belichick and the Patriots are guilty. It's inexcusable to knowingly break the rules like this. It's embarrassing for the whole team and its fans. They deserve whatever punishment the league hands down. PERIOD.All I'm saying is that IF this was going on during the whole Patriots title run, every member of the coaching staff and every player is in some way tainted by this whole mess. Including Mangini who apparently knew enough about the scheme to blow the whistle, according to the Daily News article. Read the piece, Marc.

Fine, let's accept your argument.Even if Mangini ratted him out as you suggest, why is that "as bad" as what Belichik did? Being a whistelblower is nowher near as bad as violating clearly written down rules.

In this sense, I don't think that Mangini is being a whistleblower in order to correct a wrong in some sort of "moral outrage" about the cheating. He's doing it to gain a material advantage over a rival. Other teams apparently knew this stuff was going on and according to one of the Green Bay Packers executives, there is a "code of silence" about this sort of thing. Implying (as Ronde/Tiki Barber, Bill Parcells, Don Banks, etc...) that this sort of thing goes on all the time. Again, even THAT isn't a justification for the rule-breaking, IMO. However, if that's the case, Mangini took all the benefits of Patriot success and ratted out his mentor when it suited him. While it's not "as bad" in terms of rulebreaking, it certainly sheds some light on Mangini's character and it doesn't really put him in a BETTER light than Belichick. It's pretty sleazy.

 

[Marc Levin]

The fact is that Mangini and the Jets were looking for it and assisted in catching them redhanded,

Do we know this for a fact?

 

[Joe Bryant]

The Mangini factor is one huge thing I believe going in favor of the Pats not doing something wrong. If they consistently cheated like this, I don't see how Mangini wouldn't have known about it. And taken steps to make sure it wasn't happening here.J

Joe, that's how they got caught. Mangini told the Jets what the Pats do, and so they were looking for it specifically, found it, and alerted NFL security.

Do we know this for sure? (Trying to wade between fact/speculation here)

Agreed. I don't know that for sure either. If it is that way and Mangini told security to be watching for it as he knew they did that kind of thing, then forget what I said. That would be just as strong a factor going the other way.J

 

[Keys Myaths]

The fact is that Mangini and the Jets were looking for it and assisted in catching them redhanded,

Do we know this for a fact?

:honda:

 

[GregR_2]

The Mangini factor is one huge thing I believe going in favor of the Pats not doing something wrong. If they consistently cheated like this, I don't see how Mangini wouldn't have known about it. And taken steps to make sure it wasn't happening here.

J

Joe, that's how they got caught. Mangini told the Jets what the Pats do, and so they were looking for it specifically, found it, and alerted NFL security.

Do we know this for sure? (Trying to wade between fact/speculation here)

According to a newspaper source, yes. From post 395:

Eric Mangini exposes Bill Belichick's spy games

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football...chicks_spy.html

BY RICH CIMINI

DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER

Wednesday, September 12th 2007, 4:00 AM

Armed with counter-intelligence from Eric Mangini, the Jets apparently have succeeded in busting the Patriots' spy ring.



A former assistant under Bill Belichick, Mangini arrived in New York last year with an insider's knowledge of the Patriots' sign-stealing surveillance tactics and he shared the dirty little secret with members of the Jets' organization, a person with knowledge of the matter informed the Daily News yesterday.

It wasn't until the fifth Mangini-Belichick showdown - last Sunday - that the Jets were able to catch the Patriots. Tipped off by Jets security, an NFL security official confiscated a video camera and tape from a Patriots employee at the Meadowlands, and the evidence is believed to be damning.

Commissioner Roger Goodell hasn't made a final decision, according to a high-level source, but he wants to resolve the issue ASAP. A league spokesman refuted an ESPN report last night that said Goodell already has determined that the Patriots violated league rules.

An announcement could be made by the end of the week. The Patriots, who will have a chance to present their side to Goodell by Friday, could be stripped of multiple draft choices and/or fined heavily.

Matt Estrella, 26, a Patriots video assistant, was nabbed just before halftime of the Jets' 38-14 loss on opening day. He allegedly videotaped hand signals from the Jets' defensive coaches on the sideline, defying an edict from Goodell, who warned teams before the season that he wouldn't tolerate cheating. Several teams have suspected the Patriots of stealing signs. So did the Jets, thanks to Mangini.



"(The Jets) knew they did it," the person with knowledge of the situation said in an e-mail to the Daily News. "They caught the guy a year ago, but couldn't do anything about it. When Eric came, he said that's what they used to do. Bill is going to be (ticked) at Eric. He kissed and told."

Mangini, hired last year by the Jets, coached under Belichick from 2000 to 2005 in New England. Their once-close relationship has frayed, and this latest chapter in the Border War has raised the hostility to all-time levels.

New details came to light yesterday. The cameraman, wearing a team polo shirt under the league-mandated sideline photographer's vest, was stopped by security as he tried to enter the New England locker room before halftime, sources said. An animated discussion ensued, involving league security, Jets security and Patriots security.

The dispute, which occurred in the bowels of the stadium, lasted more than an hour, virtually the entire second half. At one point, it became so heated that New Jersey state troopers were summoned as a precaution, a source said. The Jets apparently were trying to confiscate the videotape, which wound up in the possession of NFL security. The tape was placed in a box, sealed and forwarded to the league.

"He looked scared to death," one source said of Estrella.

It's unclear if the Patriots had a chance to review the tape before it was seized, raising the question of whether it helped them in the game. They certainly played like they knew the Jets' strategy. In the second half, Tom Brady completed 10 of 11 passes for 138 yards and a touchdown.

"He seemed like he knew what we were doing," safety Kerry Rhodes said.

No video recording devices of any kind are permitted on the field, in the locker room or in the coaches' booth during a game, according to league rules.

Patriots owner Robert Kraft said yesterday it would be inappropriate to comment directly on the accusations, but he hinted that the Jets' actions may have stemmed from being envious of his team's success.

"When you're successful in anything, a lot of people like to try to take you down and do different things," he told reporters at a charity appearance. "We understand that."

The Jets have declined comment, saying it's a league matter.

Belichick, addressing the situation for the first time late Monday on his Boston radio show, acknowledged he was aware of the incident at the game. Beyond that, he provided little insight, saying, "It's a league thing. Whatever the deal is, which I don't even know the details of, a lot of it, we'll comply."

This isn't the first time the Jets and Patriots have accused each other of wrongdoing. A year ago, the Patriots filed tampering charges against the Jets, claiming they conducted improper discussions with Deion Branch when the wide receiver was given permission to seek a trade. After an intensive, four-month investigation, the Jets were exonerated.

Patriots bashing apparently has become popular. Chargers running back LaDainian Tomlinson, who questioned Belichick's integrity after a playoff loss last January, said Monday he wasn't surprised by Spy Gate.

"I think the Patriots actually live by the saying, 'If you're not cheating, you're not trying,'" he told reporters in San Diego.

The Chargers and Patriots meet this Sunday.

PATRIOT GAMES

According to a former coach, this is likely how and why the Patriots stole the Jets defensive signals:

The person with the camera, in this case, Patriots video assistant Matt Estrella, would tape the coach's hand signals as he sends the defense in. Then the camera person would verbally call out down and distance so the recorder's microphone would pick it up. Then when the tape is analyzed, the hand signals are matched up to down and distance and defensive scheme.

"They would have it all chronicled such as: 4-3 even defense, cover 2, hand to the belt, index finger up," the coach said. "Now if you had a sharp guy in the huddle who was in for every play, you would teach him the signals and he would look over to the sidelines and steal the signals and tell the quarterback."

 

[fatness]

The Mangini factor is one huge thing I believe going in favor of the Pats not doing something wrong. If they consistently cheated like this, I don't see how Mangini wouldn't have known about it. And taken steps to make sure it wasn't happening here.

J

Joe, that's how they got caught. Mangini told the Jets what the Pats do, and so they were looking for it specifically, found it, and alerted NFL security.

Do we know this for sure? (Trying to wade between fact/speculation here)

I think we do.Link

Armed with counter-intelligence from Eric Mangini, the Jets apparently have succeeded in busting the Patriots' spy ring.

A former assistant under Bill Belichick, Mangini arrived in New York last year with an insider's knowledge of the Patriots' sign-stealing surveillance tactics and he shared the dirty little secret with members of the Jets' organization, a person with knowledge of the matter informed the Daily News yesterday.

It wasn't until the fifth Mangini-Belichick showdown - last Sunday - that the Jets were able to catch the Patriots. Tipped off by Jets security, an NFL security official confiscated a video camera and tape from a Patriots employee at the Meadowlands, and the evidence is believed to be damning.

 

[BusMan]

The Mangini factor is one huge thing I believe going in favor of the Pats not doing something wrong. If they consistently cheated like this, I don't see how Mangini wouldn't have known about it. And taken steps to make sure it wasn't happening here.

J

Joe, that's how they got caught. Mangini told the Jets what the Pats do, and so they were looking for it specifically, found it, and alerted NFL security.

Do we know this for sure? (Trying to wade between fact/speculation here)

More speculation here:

POSTED 8:58 a.m. EDT, September 12, 2007

WERE PATS STUNG BY COMPETITION COMMITTEE?

There's a theory making the rounds in league circles that the Sunday confiscation of Matt Estrella's camera was the result of a specific effort by the NFL's Competition Committee to nail the Patriots.

It was, some believe, a sting operation.

Rumors also are swirling that Jets coach Eric Mangini, who was with the Pats through the 2005 season, began to spread the word to other teams in 2006 regarding the tactics that Bill Belichick employs. But even after a close call last year in Green Bay, the Patriots kept doing it.

The thinking in some circles is that the Competition Committee, which has endorsed the use of a radio receiver in the helmet of one defensive player, wants to use the Patriots' situation as the impetus for getting the additional two votes necessary to pass the rule.

In March 2007, 22 of the 24 teams needed to push the measure through voted in favor of it.

Though such a rule will not be perfect given the extent of the substitutions made on defense, it would eliminate the temptation to steal defensive signals, because it would eliminate the defensive signals.

And, in our view, it's a no-brainer that this rule will be passed come March 2008.

 

[Marc Levin]

In this sense, I don't think that Mangini is being a whistleblower in order to correct a wrong in some sort of "moral outrage" about the cheating. He's doing it to gain a material advantage over a rival. However, if that's the case, Mangini took all the benefits of Patriot success and ratted out his mentor when it suited him. While it's not "as bad" in terms of rulebreaking, it certainly sheds some light on Mangini's character and it doesn't really put him in a BETTER light than Belichick. It's pretty sleazy.

Again, so what?The incident is not designed to make Mangini look good - the incident is designed to stop the Pats from cheating.That is the only issue that is relevant here.Again, so what that he took the benefits and got a head coaching job?Plus, I have not seen anything about WHEN this rule came into existence - it may have only become cheating after Mangni left. It may have been an ethical call before this, and not a rule violation.You are making a lot of assumptions and speculation about Manginig that have no relevance in this discussion.

 

[Banger]

The fact is that Mangini and the Jets were looking for it and assisted in catching them redhanded,

Do we know this for a fact?

From what I've read, the Jets security officials spotted the camera pointed at the Jets whether they were looking for it or just happened to spot them I don't know. I'm making the assumption that the Jets were probably looking for it since Mangini, and it seems that nearly everyone in the NFL, knew that Pats did this in the past. Jets security notified NFL security and things proceeded from there.

 

[Joe Bryant]

The Mangini factor is one huge thing I believe going in favor of the Pats not doing something wrong. If they consistently cheated like this, I don't see how Mangini wouldn't have known about it. And taken steps to make sure it wasn't happening here.

J

Joe, that's how they got caught. Mangini told the Jets what the Pats do, and so they were looking for it specifically, found it, and alerted NFL security.

Do we know this for sure? (Trying to wade between fact/speculation here)

From post 395:

Eric Mangini exposes Bill Belichick's spy games

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football...chicks_spy.html

BY RICH CIMINI

DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER

Wednesday, September 12th 2007, 4:00 AM

Armed with counter-intelligence from Eric Mangini, the Jets apparently have succeeded in busting the Patriots' spy ring.



A former assistant under Bill Belichick, Mangini arrived in New York last year with an insider's knowledge of the Patriots' sign-stealing surveillance tactics and he shared the dirty little secret with members of the Jets' organization, a person with knowledge of the matter informed the Daily News yesterday.

It wasn't until the fifth Mangini-Belichick showdown - last Sunday - that the Jets were able to catch the Patriots. Tipped off by Jets security, an NFL security official confiscated a video camera and tape from a Patriots employee at the Meadowlands, and the evidence is believed to be damning.

Commissioner Roger Goodell hasn't made a final decision, according to a high-level source, but he wants to resolve the issue ASAP. A league spokesman refuted an ESPN report last night that said Goodell already has determined that the Patriots violated league rules.

An announcement could be made by the end of the week. The Patriots, who will have a chance to present their side to Goodell by Friday, could be stripped of multiple draft choices and/or fined heavily.

Matt Estrella, 26, a Patriots video assistant, was nabbed just before halftime of the Jets' 38-14 loss on opening day. He allegedly videotaped hand signals from the Jets' defensive coaches on the sideline, defying an edict from Goodell, who warned teams before the season that he wouldn't tolerate cheating. Several teams have suspected the Patriots of stealing signs. So did the Jets, thanks to Mangini.



"(The Jets) knew they did it," the person with knowledge of the situation said in an e-mail to the Daily News. "They caught the guy a year ago, but couldn't do anything about it. When Eric came, he said that's what they used to do. Bill is going to be (ticked) at Eric. He kissed and told."

Mangini, hired last year by the Jets, coached under Belichick from 2000 to 2005 in New England. Their once-close relationship has frayed, and this latest chapter in the Border War has raised the hostility to all-time levels.

New details came to light yesterday. The cameraman, wearing a team polo shirt under the league-mandated sideline photographer's vest, was stopped by security as he tried to enter the New England locker room before halftime, sources said. An animated discussion ensued, involving league security, Jets security and Patriots security.

The dispute, which occurred in the bowels of the stadium, lasted more than an hour, virtually the entire second half. At one point, it became so heated that New Jersey state troopers were summoned as a precaution, a source said. The Jets apparently were trying to confiscate the videotape, which wound up in the possession of NFL security. The tape was placed in a box, sealed and forwarded to the league.

"He looked scared to death," one source said of Estrella.

It's unclear if the Patriots had a chance to review the tape before it was seized, raising the question of whether it helped them in the game. They certainly played like they knew the Jets' strategy. In the second half, Tom Brady completed 10 of 11 passes for 138 yards and a touchdown.

"He seemed like he knew what we were doing," safety Kerry Rhodes said.

No video recording devices of any kind are permitted on the field, in the locker room or in the coaches' booth during a game, according to league rules.

Patriots owner Robert Kraft said yesterday it would be inappropriate to comment directly on the accusations, but he hinted that the Jets' actions may have stemmed from being envious of his team's success.

"When you're successful in anything, a lot of people like to try to take you down and do different things," he told reporters at a charity appearance. "We understand that."

The Jets have declined comment, saying it's a league matter.

Belichick, addressing the situation for the first time late Monday on his Boston radio show, acknowledged he was aware of the incident at the game. Beyond that, he provided little insight, saying, "It's a league thing. Whatever the deal is, which I don't even know the details of, a lot of it, we'll comply."

This isn't the first time the Jets and Patriots have accused each other of wrongdoing. A year ago, the Patriots filed tampering charges against the Jets, claiming they conducted improper discussions with Deion Branch when the wide receiver was given permission to seek a trade. After an intensive, four-month investigation, the Jets were exonerated.

Patriots bashing apparently has become popular. Chargers running back LaDainian Tomlinson, who questioned Belichick's integrity after a playoff loss last January, said Monday he wasn't surprised by Spy Gate.

"I think the Patriots actually live by the saying, 'If you're not cheating, you're not trying,'" he told reporters in San Diego.

The Chargers and Patriots meet this Sunday.

PATRIOT GAMES

According to a former coach, this is likely how and why the Patriots stole the Jets defensive signals:

The person with the camera, in this case, Patriots video assistant Matt Estrella, would tape the coach's hand signals as he sends the defense in. Then the camera person would verbally call out down and distance so the recorder's microphone would pick it up. Then when the tape is analyzed, the hand signals are matched up to down and distance and defensive scheme.

"They would have it all chronicled such as: 4-3 even defense, cover 2, hand to the belt, index finger up," the coach said. "Now if you had a sharp guy in the huddle who was in for every play, you would teach him the signals and he would look over to the sidelines and steal the signals and tell the quarterback."

Ouch. Thanks GregR.Not good.

The tape will be interesting to see what's on it.

One thing I said yesterday holds true I think. The league is HATING this. It's one thing for a rogue QB to be dogfighting. But when one of the premiere franchises is accused by many of cheating, that's entirely different. It's bad behavior vs integrity. All sports are hyper sensitive to keeping the integrity of the game above board. The NBA can handle Kobe Bryant stuff. They have a much tougher time with the ref thing.

If the video tape showed nothing, Greg Aiello couldn't get to the microphone fast enough to say so. The fact they aren't totally clearing them of this instantly showing a blank video tape is not good.

But again, the story will develop.

J

 

[The_Man]

WERE PATS STUNG BY COMPETITION COMMITTEE?There's a theory making the rounds in league circles that the Sunday confiscation of Matt Estrella's camera was the result of a specific effort by the NFL's Competition Committee to nail the Patriots.It was, some believe, a sting operation.

Turns out the Jets caught the video cameraman at halftime in the men's bathroom when he nudged the foot of the Jets employee seated next to him, and then slid the camera under the stall divider and started filming.

 

[Workhorse]

In this sense, I don't think that Mangini is being a whistleblower in order to correct a wrong in some sort of "moral outrage" about the cheating. He's doing it to gain a material advantage over a rival. However, if that's the case, Mangini took all the benefits of Patriot success and ratted out his mentor when it suited him. While it's not "as bad" in terms of rulebreaking, it certainly sheds some light on Mangini's character and it doesn't really put him in a BETTER light than Belichick. It's pretty sleazy.

Again, so what?The incident is not designed to make Mangini look good - the incident is designed to stop the Pats from cheating.That is the only issue that is relevant here.Again, so what that he took the benefits and got a head coaching job?Plus, I have not seen anything about WHEN this rule came into existence - it may have only become cheating after Mangni left. It may have been an ethical call before this, and not a rule violation.You are making a lot of assumptions and speculation about Manginig that have no relevance in this discussion.

The "assumptions and speculation" aren't really mine, Marc. They're coming from published articles from the NY Daily News, for example. Whether you think that Mangini's role in this scheme is irrelevant is your opinion, and I respect that. IMO, it would be like someone who worked for the Nixon White House as a loyal Republican, knowing about Watergate, then ratting out the administration when he decided to run for President as a Democrat.Does it excuse Watergate? Absolutely not. But that doesn't make the "whisteblower" look very good either.

 

[BusMan]

Eric Mangini, the "boy genius" of the staff under Belichick in prior years not only principally benefited from this scheme and propped up his resume with the results, but as soon as he was on the other end of it, turned around and ratted out his former mentor.IMO, that's just as dirty as what Belichick did in the first place.

Thanks - you just made my morning. I now have seen two of the silliest justifications for this cheating ever.

Stop right there... Use some reading comprehension.I'm NOT JUSTIFYING ANYTHING. Read the whole quote. Belichick and the Patriots are guilty. It's inexcusable to knowingly break the rules like this. It's embarrassing for the whole team and its fans. They deserve whatever punishment the league hands down. PERIOD.All I'm saying is that IF this was going on during the whole Patriots title run, every member of the coaching staff and every player is in some way tainted by this whole mess. Including Mangini who apparently knew enough about the scheme to blow the whistle, according to the Daily News article. Read the piece, Marc.

Fine, let's accept your argument.Even if Mangini ratted him out as you suggest, why is that "as bad" as what Belichik did? Being a whistelblower is nowher near as bad as violating clearly written down rules.

In this sense, I don't think that Mangini is being a whistleblower in order to correct a wrong in some sort of "moral outrage" about the cheating. He's doing it to gain a material advantage over a rival. Other teams apparently knew this stuff was going on and according to one of the Green Bay Packers executives, there is a "code of silence" about this sort of thing. Implying (as Ronde/Tiki Barber, Bill Parcells, Don Banks, etc...) that this sort of thing goes on all the time. Again, even THAT isn't a justification for the rule-breaking, IMO. However, if that's the case, Mangini took all the benefits of Patriot success and ratted out his mentor when it suited him. While it's not "as bad" in terms of rulebreaking, it certainly sheds some light on Mangini's character and it doesn't really put him in a BETTER light than Belichick. It's pretty sleazy.

So in your hypothetical world, Mangini should have either ratted out BB while still under his employ in New England, or he should have quit due to moral outrage? This from a guy who worked his butt off to become a coach and had nothing handed to him? He should just throw that all away? Take off the homer glasses, please.

 

[Marc Levin]

WERE PATS STUNG BY COMPETITION COMMITTEE?There's a theory making the rounds in league circles that the Sunday confiscation of Matt Estrella's camera was the result of a specific effort by the NFL's Competition Committee to nail the Patriots.It was, some believe, a sting operation.

Turns out the Jets caught the video cameraman at halftime in the men's bathroom when he nudged the foot of the Jets employee seated next to him, and then slid the camera under the stall divider and started filming.

You guys have given me some good this a.m.

 

[BusMan]

In this sense, I don't think that Mangini is being a whistleblower in order to correct a wrong in some sort of "moral outrage" about the cheating. He's doing it to gain a material advantage over a rival. However, if that's the case, Mangini took all the benefits of Patriot success and ratted out his mentor when it suited him. While it's not "as bad" in terms of rulebreaking, it certainly sheds some light on Mangini's character and it doesn't really put him in a BETTER light than Belichick. It's pretty sleazy.

Again, so what?The incident is not designed to make Mangini look good - the incident is designed to stop the Pats from cheating.That is the only issue that is relevant here.Again, so what that he took the benefits and got a head coaching job?Plus, I have not seen anything about WHEN this rule came into existence - it may have only become cheating after Mangni left. It may have been an ethical call before this, and not a rule violation.You are making a lot of assumptions and speculation about Manginig that have no relevance in this discussion.

The "assumptions and speculation" aren't really mine, Marc. They're coming from published articles from the NY Daily News, for example. Whether you think that Mangini's role in this scheme is irrelevant is your opinion, and I respect that. IMO, it would be like someone who worked for the Nixon White House as a loyal Republican, knowing about Watergate, then ratting out the administration when he decided to run for President as a Democrat.Does it excuse Watergate? Absolutely not. But that doesn't make the "whisteblower" look very good either.

That's great and all, but your take is extremely cynical and chooses to follow an ancillary part of the story. I don't care if Mangini is in any way complicit or not--he didn't get caught.

 

[Winston Wolfe]

Patriots Website

STATEMENT FROM PATRIOTS HEAD COACH BILL BELICHICK

"Earlier this week, I spoke with Commissioner Goodell about a videotaping procedure during last Sunday's game and my interpretation of the rules. At this point, we have not been notified of the league's ruling. Although it remains a league matter, I want to apologize to everyone who has been affected, most of all ownership, staff and players. Following the league’s decision, I will have further comment.”

 

[Marc Levin]

In this sense, I don't think that Mangini is being a whistleblower in order to correct a wrong in some sort of "moral outrage" about the cheating. He's doing it to gain a material advantage over a rival. However, if that's the case, Mangini took all the benefits of Patriot success and ratted out his mentor when it suited him. While it's not "as bad" in terms of rulebreaking, it certainly sheds some light on Mangini's character and it doesn't really put him in a BETTER light than Belichick. It's pretty sleazy.

Again, so what?The incident is not designed to make Mangini look good - the incident is designed to stop the Pats from cheating.That is the only issue that is relevant here.Again, so what that he took the benefits and got a head coaching job?Plus, I have not seen anything about WHEN this rule came into existence - it may have only become cheating after Mangni left. It may have been an ethical call before this, and not a rule violation.You are making a lot of assumptions and speculation about Manginig that have no relevance in this discussion.

The "assumptions and speculation" aren't really mine, Marc. They're coming from published articles from the NY Daily News, for example. Whether you think that Mangini's role in this scheme is irrelevant is your opinion, and I respect that. IMO, it would be like someone who worked for the Nixon White House as a loyal Republican, knowing about Watergate, then ratting out the administration when he decided to run for President as a Democrat.Does it excuse Watergate? Absolutely not. But that doesn't make the "whisteblower" look very good either.

Who cares what Mangini or the whistleblower in Watergate look like as long as the cheating is ended? Belichick is covered in feces - those around him stink just as much because he shook it off on them, but they aren't the ones covered in feces.

 

[Keys Myaths]

Patriots Website

STATEMENT FROM PATRIOTS HEAD COACH BILL BELICHICK

"Earlier this week, I spoke with Commissioner Goodell about a videotaping procedure during last Sunday's game and my interpretation of the rules. At this point, we have not been notified of the league's ruling. Although it remains a league matter, I want to apologize to everyone who has been affected, most of all ownership, staff and players. Following the league’s decision, I will have further comment.”

Wow.Does not look good at all.

 

[Shrek]

FECES ALERT!!

 

[Workhorse]

Eric Mangini, the "boy genius" of the staff under Belichick in prior years not only principally benefited from this scheme and propped up his resume with the results, but as soon as he was on the other end of it, turned around and ratted out his former mentor.IMO, that's just as dirty as what Belichick did in the first place.

Thanks - you just made my morning. I now have seen two of the silliest justifications for this cheating ever.

Stop right there... Use some reading comprehension.I'm NOT JUSTIFYING ANYTHING. Read the whole quote. Belichick and the Patriots are guilty. It's inexcusable to knowingly break the rules like this. It's embarrassing for the whole team and its fans. They deserve whatever punishment the league hands down. PERIOD.All I'm saying is that IF this was going on during the whole Patriots title run, every member of the coaching staff and every player is in some way tainted by this whole mess. Including Mangini who apparently knew enough about the scheme to blow the whistle, according to the Daily News article. Read the piece, Marc.

Fine, let's accept your argument.Even if Mangini ratted him out as you suggest, why is that "as bad" as what Belichik did? Being a whistelblower is nowher near as bad as violating clearly written down rules.

In this sense, I don't think that Mangini is being a whistleblower in order to correct a wrong in some sort of "moral outrage" about the cheating. He's doing it to gain a material advantage over a rival. Other teams apparently knew this stuff was going on and according to one of the Green Bay Packers executives, there is a "code of silence" about this sort of thing. Implying (as Ronde/Tiki Barber, Bill Parcells, Don Banks, etc...) that this sort of thing goes on all the time. Again, even THAT isn't a justification for the rule-breaking, IMO. However, if that's the case, Mangini took all the benefits of Patriot success and ratted out his mentor when it suited him. While it's not "as bad" in terms of rulebreaking, it certainly sheds some light on Mangini's character and it doesn't really put him in a BETTER light than Belichick. It's pretty sleazy.

So in your hypothetical world, Mangini should have either ratted out BB while still under his employ in New England, or he should have quit due to moral outrage? This from a guy who worked his butt off to become a coach and had nothing handed to him? He should just throw that all away? Take off the homer glasses, please.

The bulk of Mangini's reputation around the league that allowed him to get the NYJ coaching gig was built from his role as Belichick mentee/protege. Are you denying that?

 

[Banger]

But when one of the premiere franchises is accused by many of cheating, that's entirely different. It's bad behavior vs integrity. All sports are hyper sensitive to keeping the integrity of the game above board. The NBA can handle Kobe Bryant stuff. They have a much tougher time with the ref thing.If the video tape showed nothing, Greg Aiello couldn't get to the microphone fast enough to say so. The fact they aren't totally clearing them of this instantly showing a blank video tape is not good.But again, the story will develop.J

It seems to go so much deeper though since there appear to be multiple teams that were looking for the Pats cheating last year (perhaps tipped from Mangini) and the Pats caught several times but nothing was done. Then apparently the Pats were specifically warned in December according to some reports, then the rule or re-clarification of the rule comes out in the offseason specifically prohibitting this and then on the opening weekend the Pats are busted red handed doing specifically what they had be warned not to do. I can imagine there are a number of NFL franchises pressuring Goddell to throw the book at the Pats for this blantant, pompous violation and seeing how Goddell operates I don't think he will take kindly to being opening disobeyed. Should be interesting.

 

[Marc Levin]

When did this rule go into effect - I have yet to see a single report on this issue. Sounds like it was a violation last year (despite assertions by posters inthis thread that it was onyl a rule violation this year).

How about two years ago?

Three?

 

[BusMan]

Eric Mangini, the "boy genius" of the staff under Belichick in prior years not only principally benefited from this scheme and propped up his resume with the results, but as soon as he was on the other end of it, turned around and ratted out his former mentor.IMO, that's just as dirty as what Belichick did in the first place.

Thanks - you just made my morning. I now have seen two of the silliest justifications for this cheating ever.

Stop right there... Use some reading comprehension.I'm NOT JUSTIFYING ANYTHING. Read the whole quote. Belichick and the Patriots are guilty. It's inexcusable to knowingly break the rules like this. It's embarrassing for the whole team and its fans. They deserve whatever punishment the league hands down. PERIOD.All I'm saying is that IF this was going on during the whole Patriots title run, every member of the coaching staff and every player is in some way tainted by this whole mess. Including Mangini who apparently knew enough about the scheme to blow the whistle, according to the Daily News article. Read the piece, Marc.

Fine, let's accept your argument.Even if Mangini ratted him out as you suggest, why is that "as bad" as what Belichik did? Being a whistelblower is nowher near as bad as violating clearly written down rules.

In this sense, I don't think that Mangini is being a whistleblower in order to correct a wrong in some sort of "moral outrage" about the cheating. He's doing it to gain a material advantage over a rival. Other teams apparently knew this stuff was going on and according to one of the Green Bay Packers executives, there is a "code of silence" about this sort of thing. Implying (as Ronde/Tiki Barber, Bill Parcells, Don Banks, etc...) that this sort of thing goes on all the time. Again, even THAT isn't a justification for the rule-breaking, IMO. However, if that's the case, Mangini took all the benefits of Patriot success and ratted out his mentor when it suited him. While it's not "as bad" in terms of rulebreaking, it certainly sheds some light on Mangini's character and it doesn't really put him in a BETTER light than Belichick. It's pretty sleazy.

So in your hypothetical world, Mangini should have either ratted out BB while still under his employ in New England, or he should have quit due to moral outrage? This from a guy who worked his butt off to become a coach and had nothing handed to him? He should just throw that all away? Take off the homer glasses, please.

The bulk of Mangini's reputation around the league that allowed him to get the NYJ coaching gig was built from his role as Belichick mentee/protege. Are you denying that?

Of course not. What does that have to do with anything? Coordinators on winning teams get hired for head coaching gigs. Your argument is getting stretched thin and is about to break, due to a lack of substance.

 

[Workhorse]

In this sense, I don't think that Mangini is being a whistleblower in order to correct a wrong in some sort of "moral outrage" about the cheating. He's doing it to gain a material advantage over a rival. However, if that's the case, Mangini took all the benefits of Patriot success and ratted out his mentor when it suited him. While it's not "as bad" in terms of rulebreaking, it certainly sheds some light on Mangini's character and it doesn't really put him in a BETTER light than Belichick. It's pretty sleazy.

Again, so what?The incident is not designed to make Mangini look good - the incident is designed to stop the Pats from cheating.That is the only issue that is relevant here.Again, so what that he took the benefits and got a head coaching job?Plus, I have not seen anything about WHEN this rule came into existence - it may have only become cheating after Mangni left. It may have been an ethical call before this, and not a rule violation.You are making a lot of assumptions and speculation about Manginig that have no relevance in this discussion.

The "assumptions and speculation" aren't really mine, Marc. They're coming from published articles from the NY Daily News, for example. Whether you think that Mangini's role in this scheme is irrelevant is your opinion, and I respect that. IMO, it would be like someone who worked for the Nixon White House as a loyal Republican, knowing about Watergate, then ratting out the administration when he decided to run for President as a Democrat.Does it excuse Watergate? Absolutely not. But that doesn't make the "whisteblower" look very good either.

Who cares what Mangini or the whistleblower in Watergate look like as long as the cheating is ended? Belichick is covered in feces - those around him stink just as much because he shook it off on them, but they aren't the ones covered in feces.

If you don't care about Mangini's role in all of this, then why even comment on this little tangent in the first place, Marc?The whole point of his little sidebar is that there are LOTS of people who are coming out stinky here. Not just Belichick.

 

[Banger]

Patriots Website

STATEMENT FROM PATRIOTS HEAD COACH BILL BELICHICK

"Earlier this week, I spoke with Commissioner Goodell about a videotaping procedure during last Sunday's game and my interpretation of the rules. At this point, we have not been notified of the league's ruling. Although it remains a league matter, I want to apologize to everyone who has been affected, most of all ownership, staff and players. Following the league’s decision, I will have further comment.”

I don't have the rule in front of me but from what I've heard is that it prohibits teams using recording devices in your stadium or something along those lines. Since it seems most of these incidents occured on the road I'm wondering if he was using the loose interpretation that "we didn't do this at home games since the rule prohibits that but we did it on the road since the rules don't specifically prohibit it". Does anyone have a copy of the wording of the rule?

 

[Marc Levin]

If you don't care about Mangini's role in all of this, then why even comment on this little tangent in the first place, Marc?The whole point of his little sidebar is that there are LOTS of people who are coming out stinky here. Not just Belichick.

Because you said what Mangini did (not ratting out Belichick while a Pat and then waiting until he was with the Jets to rat him out) was "just as dirty" as the cheating.It is not relevant to how stinky Belichik is. I don't even see your point about mangini being "stinky."Though we like to hate on C.I.s who set up criminals, the C.I, is not as "stinky" as the criminal.

 

[((Morpheus))]

Follow up question:

What NFL rule, exactly, did the Patriots violate? I'm curious to see the specifics of the rule.

I guess I just assumed that every team paid attention to the plays being signaled in by the opposition and analyzed them later...

 

[Workhorse]

C.I?

 

[Ghost Rider]

Patriots Website

STATEMENT FROM PATRIOTS HEAD COACH BILL BELICHICK

"Earlier this week, I spoke with Commissioner Goodell about a videotaping procedure during last Sunday's game and my interpretation of the rules. At this point, we have not been notified of the league's ruling. Although it remains a league matter, I want to apologize to everyone who has been affected, most of all ownership, staff and players. Following the league’s decision, I will have further comment.”

My interpretation of the rules?

 

[Marc Levin]

C.I?

Confidential Informant - I guess you don't watch NYPB Blue, the Shield, Sopranos, or Law and Order.

 

[Marc Levin]

Follow up question:What NFL rule, exactly, did the Patriots violate? I'm curious to see the specifics of the rule. I guess I just assumed that every team paid attention to the plays being signaled in by the opposition and analyzed them later...

They do and they can - using recording devices is prohibited.I want to know how old the rule is.

 

[David Yudkin]

unconfrimed rumors are swirling that it may cost them a 1st rounder in '08 and '09

Source? Link?

 

[GregR_2]

But when one of the premiere franchises is accused by many of cheating, that's entirely different. It's bad behavior vs integrity. All sports are hyper sensitive to keeping the integrity of the game above board. The NBA can handle Kobe Bryant stuff. They have a much tougher time with the ref thing.If the video tape showed nothing, Greg Aiello couldn't get to the microphone fast enough to say so. The fact they aren't totally clearing them of this instantly showing a blank video tape is not good.But again, the story will develop.J

It seems to go so much deeper though since there appear to be multiple teams that were looking for the Pats cheating last year (perhaps tipped from Mangini) and the Pats caught several times but nothing was done. Then apparently the Pats were specifically warned in December according to some reports, then the rule or re-clarification of the rule comes out in the offseason specifically prohibitting this and then on the opening weekend the Pats are busted red handed doing specifically what they had be warned not to do. I can imagine there are a number of NFL franchises pressuring Goddell to throw the book at the Pats for this blantant, pompous violation and seeing how Goddell operates I don't think he will take kindly to being opening disobeyed. Should be interesting.

And as Joe was alluding to, PR black eye vs integrity of the game is a big deal. Goodell has been strict with players over the PR violations which are the lesser evil. You can be sure players are going to be watching this situation closely. If a player gets a worse punishment for a PR violation than a management guy does for violating the game's integrity, the players are going to go ballistic in the press. And probably rightfully so.I'm thinking because of this, Goodell will come down extra hard. Multiple first day picks and a suspension for BB and a major fine for both BB and the organization are very likely if the media reports on the situation are accurate.

 

[Mmen of Steel]

It will be interesting to see what BB and Kraft and the players have to say about this (after a couple weeks of course, as the initial comments are likely to be "no comment"). Questions for discussion: 1. Will BB et.al. bring up the alleged procurement of taped Patriots playcalling by the Dolphins last year?2. How will Goodell address the perceived rampant cheating across the league as part of this pending ruling?3. Was Martha Stewart unfairly prosecuted?4. Who is the bigger villain: Barry Bonds or Bud Selig?5. What will the haters say if the Patriots run the table after the cameras are taken away?6. What will Patriots fans say if the Patriots go 7 and 9 after the cameras are taken away?

7. Will this tarnish Brady's career/image? He was talking about a career in politics.

Most importantly:8. Will they erase the Patriots' week 1 fantasy stats?

Seriously, this could affect my Fantasy Congress League.I have Brady on my dynasty roster.

 

[The Jerk]

The whole point of his little sidebar is that there are LOTS of people who are coming out stinky here. Not just Belichick.

Let's see what happens first with these accusations, but don't you think that any people who come out stinky will do so due to their association with Belichick? It's not fair to conclude that everyone who worked for/with Belichick at any time in their career is also "stinky", as they may be guilty by association rather than actual activity, but one way or another, it appears that it all works back to Belichick. Don't try to displace the blame. It's his team; it's his responsibility. He takes most if not all of the blame. It's not that complicated.

 

[jonessed]

I'm still at a loss as to how Patriots fans can defend blatant cheating that has apparently gone on for at least a few years . I imagine the more rational of them will look on this in a few months and be a bit embarrassed.

 

[Shrek]

But when one of the premiere franchises is accused by many of cheating, that's entirely different. It's bad behavior vs integrity. All sports are hyper sensitive to keeping the integrity of the game above board. The NBA can handle Kobe Bryant stuff. They have a much tougher time with the ref thing.If the video tape showed nothing, Greg Aiello couldn't get to the microphone fast enough to say so. The fact they aren't totally clearing them of this instantly showing a blank video tape is not good.But again, the story will develop.J

It seems to go so much deeper though since there appear to be multiple teams that were looking for the Pats cheating last year (perhaps tipped from Mangini) and the Pats caught several times but nothing was done. Then apparently the Pats were specifically warned in December according to some reports, then the rule or re-clarification of the rule comes out in the offseason specifically prohibitting this and then on the opening weekend the Pats are busted red handed doing specifically what they had be warned not to do. I can imagine there are a number of NFL franchises pressuring Goddell to throw the book at the Pats for this blantant, pompous violation and seeing how Goddell operates I don't think he will take kindly to being opening disobeyed. Should be interesting.

This is precisely why I see something harsh being done. I know many here have subscribed to the theory that "this is a business first and foremost- they won't do anything drastic". These two statements contradict each other IMO.Of course it is a business first and foremost. And a business' image is among their top priorities. That's why the NFL warned the Pats about it before the rule went into effect. That's why they re-circulated their position on these types of behavior. And someone still had the audacity to break the rule.

 

[Workhorse]

C.I?

Confidential Informant - I guess you don't watch NYPB Blue, the Shield, Sopranos, or Law and Order.

Nope. Thanks for the clarification. "Stinky" in terms of culpability in breaking the rule/cheating? Clearly not. But "stinky" in terms of shady moral character? Yeah, I'd put Mangini right up there.

 

[428143]

If the NFL knows what is good for them, they will deal with this in-house, even if the Pats have been cheating for the past 5 years...

 

[yabahos]

The fact is that Mangini and the Jets were looking for it and assisted in catching them redhanded,

Do we know this for a fact?

According to this linkArmed with counter-intelligence from Eric Mangini, the Jets apparently have succeeded in busting the Patriots' spy ring.

A former assistant under Bill Belichick, Mangini arrived in New York last year with an insider's knowledge of the Patriots' sign-stealing surveillance tactics and he shared the dirty little secret with members of the Jets' organization, a person with knowledge of the matter informed the Daily News yesterday.

It wasn't until the fifth Mangini-Belichick showdown - last Sunday - that the Jets were able to catch the Patriots. Tipped off by Jets security, an NFL security official confiscated a video camera and tape from a Patriots employee at the Meadowlands, and the evidence is believed to be damning.

I stand by my first response to this - this is another way for Mangini and the NYJets to get to NE. Huge distraction going into a big game against SD, everyone knows that BB hates distractions and hates being in the media spot light, every news organization in the country is covering this story practically, its also a black eye for NE (knocks them down a notch) and if the league sanctions NE in any way its a complete win for Mangini and the NYJ.

But I also don't think that these coaches in the NFL want too stiff a penalty to come out it. A number of different sources including - 1) Bill Parcels on ESPN 2) the Green Bay guy that refers to the "code of silence" 3) Mike Golic on Mike and Mike this morning (between about 8:30 and 9:30 EST) said that Randy Edsall (UCONN coach and former Jax assistant) said that videotaping of signs happens frequently 4) Golic also reported that Peter King confirmed that it happens frequently through his sources 5) the original article from SI (link to June or July) that discusses cheating in the NFL - all indicate that its more common place in the NFL than the general public believes.

What other competitive advantages are taken by teams where the "code of silence" applies? Has this situation opened up a pandora's box where you are going to see other teams lodging complaints about other rules violations where in the past everyone just sort of looked the other way? If RG sets a precedent with this ruling what happens with the next rules violation by a coach or organization. Sometime you have to be careful what you wish for because it might come true.

 

[Gold Plated Nails]

But when one of the premiere franchises is accused by many of cheating, that's entirely different. It's bad behavior vs integrity. All sports are hyper sensitive to keeping the integrity of the game above board. The NBA can handle Kobe Bryant stuff. They have a much tougher time with the ref thing.If the video tape showed nothing, Greg Aiello couldn't get to the microphone fast enough to say so. The fact they aren't totally clearing them of this instantly showing a blank video tape is not good.But again, the story will develop.J

It seems to go so much deeper though since there appear to be multiple teams that were looking for the Pats cheating last year (perhaps tipped from Mangini) and the Pats caught several times but nothing was done. Then apparently the Pats were specifically warned in December according to some reports, then the rule or re-clarification of the rule comes out in the offseason specifically prohibitting this and then on the opening weekend the Pats are busted red handed doing specifically what they had be warned not to do. I can imagine there are a number of NFL franchises pressuring Goddell to throw the book at the Pats for this blantant, pompous violation and seeing how Goddell operates I don't think he will take kindly to being opening disobeyed. Should be interesting.

This is my take on the subject as well. It's one thing to get caught and claim you didn't really know. It's a whole other thing to get caught several times by multiple teams (as is widely being reported now), get warned by the league office, then blatantly break the rules the following season on opening day. It basically says to me you don't care for the rules if you BB and don't think anything will really happen to you if you break them. I expect the punishment to be harsher then most anticipate.On a side note, I am kind of bummed out that this whole thing has gotten the publicity over the Charger Pats game this weekend. I have been looking forward to this game all offseason, and now the game is like a sideshow to this video cheat crap. Frankly I'd be bummed out if I was a Pats fan, but that dosent seem to be the case with most Pats fans on the FBG forms.

 

[Workhorse]

I'm still at a loss as to how Patriots fans can defend blatant cheating that has apparently gone on for at least a few years . I imagine the more rational of them will look on this in a few months and be a bit embarrassed.

Who is "defending blatant cheating"?I've mentioned up and down this thread that this is TOTALLY embarrassing for the Patriots and I'm pretty embarrassed to be a fan of the team right now, if breaking a stated rule contributed to the team's success. Beyond embarrassed, really. More like REALLY pissed off.

 

[The Jerk]

... indicate that its more common place in the NFL than the general public believes.

First, it may be more widespread but no other team has been specifically caughtSecond, this year it was a point of emphasis, just like other rules in the past have become more heavily enforced on the field (in the grasp, etc.)Third, if other teams are similarly caught-- for this or other similar competitive advantages -- absolutely similar punishment should and better be given.

 

[Marc Levin]

C.I?

Confidential Informant - I guess you don't watch NYPB Blue, the Shield, Sopranos, or Law and Order.

Nope. Thanks for the clarification. "Stinky" in terms of culpability in breaking the rule/cheating? Clearly not. But "stinky" in terms of shady moral character? Yeah, I'd put Mangini right up there.

Since I still don't have an answer to my question regarding age of the rule, let's pre-suppose the rule went into effect in '05, the year Mangini left for the Jets. Prior to that , many teams used recording devices, but it was only prohbited by the rules after mangingi became H.C. of the Jets - he notices Belichik still using it last year (as did many other teams).While a pat, not a rule violation. After leaving the pats a rule violation - still as stinky?

 

[phthalatemagic]

I think Workhorse assumes there is a finite amount of blame and shame to be dispersed, and if some gets on Mangini, that means less gets on Belichick. It doesn't work that way though.

 

[Z-Dog]

It will be interesting to see what BB and Kraft and the players have to say about this (after a couple weeks of course, as the initial comments are likely to be "no comment"). Questions for discussion: 1. Will BB et.al. bring up the alleged procurement of taped Patriots playcalling by the Dolphins last year?2. How will Goodell address the perceived rampant cheating across the league as part of this pending ruling?3. Was Martha Stewart unfairly prosecuted?4. Who is the bigger villain: Barry Bonds or Bud Selig?5. What will the haters say if the Patriots run the table after the cameras are taken away?6. What will Patriots fans say if the Patriots go 7 and 9 after the cameras are taken away?

7. Will this tarnish Brady's career/image? He was talking about a career in politics.

Most importantly:8. Will they erase the Patriots' week 1 fantasy stats?

Seriously, this could affect my Fantasy Congress League.I have Brady on my dynasty roster.

Another person tainted by this scandal...It's true that nobody is going to come out smelling like a rose, including Mangini. But does anyone want to speculate on how this will affect Tom Brady? I would argue that aside from BB, Brady is the most complicit in the cheating - should this affect his eligibility for the HoF? Should he be suspended/disciplined for his participation?

 

[Joe Bryant]

If the NFL knows what is good for them, they will deal with this in-house, even if the Pats have been cheating for the past 5 years...

I hear you but the thing you have to weigh out is there are a LOT of angry teams and fans that have been on the wrong side of the Patriots games for the last few years.They have no one but their fans in their corner.And the people against them, have lots of reasons to be against them as the Pats have been so dominant. No disrespect to Browns fans but this story would have a very different feel to it if it were Romeo Crennel being accused here. There is blood in the water with a LOT of sharks circling. Basically the other 31 teams NE has been beating.J