Espn reporting Goodell confirmed Patriots using camera (1 Viewer)

[JZilla]

Yes, it does. I promise. Just because the player didn't want to feel the wrath of his friends and former employees/employers, who would have shunned him forever if he used his name, that doesn't make the quote less true.

You guys are killin' me. GB the Pool when crap like this goes down.

 

[Keys Myaths]

That doesnt have a speck of meat on it.

"You try to get those false calls that teams like to use at the line,'' said one former player. "Player X or coach X who has been with that team might stop by the offensive or defensive meetings and say, 'Look for this if they say that. Or when the quarterback does this, look for that.' It can be very useful in some cases.''

That's not conjecture. That's not opinion.

Let me guess, you read the first three lines and didn't bother to actually read it?

Yes it is. Its not even attributed to anyone.

Amazing that the former player didn't want his name used.The quote happened. From a former player. Sometimes in journalism to actually go after the truth, you have to use confidential sources.

I would know better than 99% of people on this board. So I really wouldn't go there with that argument. You don't have any credibility there.

I understand that. But it still doesnt hold sway.

Yes, it does. I promise. Just because the player didn't want to feel the wrath of his friends and former employees/employers, who would have shunned him forever if he used his name, that doesn't make the quote less true.

And video part? Hello?

Link to where I argued anything about the video part?You said "not some opinion piece", and immediately blasted this thing as an opinion piece. I disagreed, based on a 10 second glance of the article. I didn't read the whole article either, nor do I plan to.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

My current thinking is John Clayton probably has it right, a big fine and a #3 and #5.

If thats what it costs... I would encourage other teams (not my Steelers though) to do the same things while trying to win a SB or three.They would be a fool if they didnt. Teams like the Lions or Browns should follow suit and try to get over on a super bowl win at that rate.

Money for someone like Kraft or Snyder or Jones means nothing. It would have to be 5+ million to leave a bruise. 10 million to hurt.

As for the #3 and #5... I would agree if this was a 1 time incident. But it flatly isnt. This is repetitive.

Goodell has to make sure it doenst ever happen again. And a #3 and a #5 just won't accomplish that goal with any certainty.

Can you make your sig bigger? I can't quite read it.

You do realize your sig takes up more room then mine does?

Yeah but since you're such a stickler for the rules, I thought I'd point out that its' against the rules to use large gaudy colored fonts on this site.... Especially purple.

Hey! You're back! That's great! Can you tell us how picking up players off of a waiver wire is cheating?TIA

just like how lots of teams steal signs through videotaping.

link plz

The link given is about something totaly off topic of the blue post and requested link. AN ex player said that other player and coaches who knew what their old teams were doing would relay to it their current team. Who gives a ####! That isnt illegal. And it isnt the topic at hand.just like how lots of teams steal signs through videotaping.

link plz

 

[Keys Myaths]

Yes, it does. I promise. Just because the player didn't want to feel the wrath of his friends and former employees/employers, who would have shunned him forever if he used his name, that doesn't make the quote less true.

You guys are killin' me. GB the Pool when crap like this goes down.

I have very little expertise to offer. Journalism, statistical analysis, and dumb off-topic comments are all I have to offer.99% of my posts are usually the third, so I jump at the chance to use the other two.

 

[NY/NJMFDIVER]

G5 had this in first in one of the other threads. The Pats better look out because this ball is starting to roll down hill....

I'd be hating it if it were my team...but

Patriots HC Belichick To Meet With GoodellAdam Schefter, NFL NetworkNFL.com's Adam Schefter reported on NFL Network that the NFL is insisting that New England Patriots head coach Bill Belichick meet with NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell this week to answer questions regarding the Patriots spying incident this past weekend during their game with the New York Jets. Schefter said there is mounting evidence that the Patriots have been spying and/or cheating for years. Schefter speculated that the Patriots could face stiff penalties such as fines, loss of draft picks and suspensions, and perhaps all three. Belichick is expected to meet with Goodell within 24 - 48 hours.

This is a bit more than a no big deal now...

 

[Reaper]

Well I'm a Pats fan and I'm kind of ticked off about this. Team is too freaking good to need to resort to this. I don't know if its just arrogance that they thought they could get away with it or whether most other teams in the league are doing it as well and they just felt like they needed to stay at an even level. Regardless this is unnecesary BS and Im not going to sugar coat it because its cheating plain and simple. Takes something away from a huge win on Sunday, they don't need this.

See, this guy gets it.

I just watched the game again in hi def. There was definitely some stealin' going on.Ban them.

 

[Mungo Burrows]

Again, this is still 95% speculation and 5% facts. I've said this repeatedly on other threads, so I won't belabor the point, but I'd rather wait and find out what actually happened on Sunday rather than listen to all the rumormongering.

That said, the real question, to put it metaphorically: Is this a second-rate burglary, or this Watergate?

The more I read about this (including the mostly one sided discussion in this thread), the more I think Watergate might be a very good analogy. That's because the Watergate break in isn't what brought down the Nixon administration, it was the attempted coverup of illicit practices. Similarly, I think the Pats are likely to get much harsher treatment because they lied to the commissioner about the practice and tried to cover it up with "it's a documentary" BS, than the offense of videotaping signals itself. Now, if there's a blank section on that video tape... look out! I can just hear BB now: [nixon voice]"I am not a cheat!"[/nixon voice]

 

[NY/NJMFDIVER]

Again, this is still 95% speculation and 5% facts. I've said this repeatedly on other threads, so I won't belabor the point, but I'd rather wait and find out what actually happened on Sunday rather than listen to all the rumormongering.

That said, the real question, to put it metaphorically: Is this a second-rate burglary, or this Watergate?

The more I read about this (including the mostly one sided discussion in this thread), the more I think Watergate might be a very good analogy. That's because the Watergate break in isn't what brought down the Nixon administration, it was the attempted coverup of illicit practices. Similarly, I think the Pats are likely to get much harsher treatment because they lied to the commissioner about the practice and tried to cover it up with "it's a documentary" BS, than the offense of videotaping signals itself. Now, if there's a blank section on that video tape... look out! I can just hear BB now: [nixon voice]"I am not a cheat!"[/nixon voice]

I'm in some inital agreement. We are fairly early in the discovery phase on this one, and right now we have a truck full of allegation, but only one video tape sitting at 280 Park Avenue. However, I wrote this in the other thread in regard to a watergate feel:We often disect the ethics of these things in baseball, well if you know player A was cheating, but think player B was cheating, how do you evaluate, etc, with regard to a lot of variables beyond roids(corked bats, doctored balls). The argument "everyone does it" doesn't hold water though, here any more than it did with regard to Nixon and Watergate. I don't think the Pats were inherently the most talented or best team in those super bowl years, but you are what you are, and what they are is Super Bowl champions. But here, if 31 other teams are stealing signs, they are not caught, they are not cheaters, the Pats and and they are what they are.

More than anything though, this really puts a crimp in Belichick's legacy. Because more than even Brady, I had really equated him with this incredible run, and while maybe not at that Lombardi/Walsh/Laundry/Knoll level yet, he was still active and still had a chance to gain on them. He was close to that elite level, but now thats gone and I think its gone for good. I can't see any of those first four doing something so petty. Maybe they did, but I've never heard anything of the such. He is out of that club and out for good. He's only hurt himself in being found out because I think he robbed his own legacy.

The sick thing is, like Nixon and Watergate, the great irony is, he probably didn't need to do this. Belichick was a failure in Cleveland, but his clear abilty to scheme goes back to his days as an assistant and his role in building the Parcells legend. The Pats might have won any and all of these games without that knowledge, but we'll never know and he's cast a pall on his own legacy.

A lot of questions need to be answered here. How was this information implemented? Players would have had to have known, they should not escape sanction, but you have to think everyone didn't know, because how could work of this not leaked? Maybe it went only as far as Brady directing the protection, maybe it was more widespread, who knows. But I'll say this, you start banging these guys a game check or a 4 game suspension if they are nabbed, that's one way to clean in up in house.

 

[fatness]

News is supposedly also on NFL Network.Rumors of two #1's being surrendered, but nothing solid so far.

Woah. That's harsh.

Not harsh in the least. Teams cannot be allowed to get away with that.

I agree.And I have a hard time understanding how the league can allow the result of a game to stand when one team was cheating during that game. If they don't overturn the game result, by making it a Patriots forfeit, what will they do when similar cheating is discovered during a playoff game or the Super Bowl? Let the result stand and let the cheating team win?It's very difficult to imagine that happening.

 

[yabahos]

Wait, so people actually believe that guy on the Jets' sideline surrounded by Jets players and staff is the cameraman in question??

As crazy as it sounds that's the guy that the NFL security guard caught taping.

Last I read, it was just one guy's guess at who it might be.

The guy in the picture is not the guy in question. From this link -NFL security officials confiscated a camera and videotape from Patriots video assistant Matt Estrella on the New England sidelines when it was suspected he was recording the Jets' defensive signals. Sources say the visual evidence confirmed the suspicion.

The guy in the picture is on the Jets sideline. Also if you read the story with the original link that I posted in the other thread here

You will see in that the author says -

According to multiple reports, however, the cameraman in question was on the Patriots' sideline, which would indeed deem the follow photograph a moot point.

 

[Shrek]

Off to dinner guys.... I'll be back in an hour or so. I can't wait to hear posts about how Belichick was drugging opposing coaches upon entry into Gillette stadium and implanting mind-reading probes. ... and how the league will be sacrificing his first born to Zenu as a fair punishment.

Reading your responses is like Psych 101. Child/bully is caught cheating, denies, tries to shift blame, lies, attempts to downplay severity by making gross over-exaggerations, etc. Very basic. I can't wait to see what else you have uncorked in the coming pages. You are outdoing even yourself in this thread, which is to your credit.

 

[mad sweeney]

News is supposedly also on NFL Network.

Rumors of two #1's being surrendered, but nothing solid so far.

Woah. That's harsh.

Not harsh in the least. Teams cannot be allowed to get away with that.

I agree.And I have a hard time understanding how the league can allow the result of a game to stand when one team was cheating during that game. If they don't overturn the game result, by making it a Patriots forfeit, what will they do when similar cheating is discovered during a playoff game or the Super Bowl? Let the result stand and let the cheating team win?

It's very difficult to imagine that happening.

While I agree, I don't think it's practical as there are other situations where this same argument would apply then. Like a game deciding bad call that is indisputable but allowed to stand. I think the jets will have to suffer as the victim which therefore should be reflected in the punishment. It's also not much of a precedent if a team gets caught in a losing effort.

 

[SteelersFan4Ever]

Wait, so people actually believe that guy on the Jets' sideline surrounded by Jets players and staff is the cameraman in question??

As crazy as it sounds that's the guy that the NFL security guard caught taping.

Last I read, it was just one guy's guess at who it might be.

The guy in the picture is not the guy in question. From this link -NFL security officials confiscated a camera and videotape from Patriots video assistant Matt Estrella on the New England sidelines when it was suspected he was recording the Jets' defensive signals. Sources say the visual evidence confirmed the suspicion.

The guy in the picture is on the Jets sideline. Also if you read the story with the original link that I posted in the other thread here

You will see in that the author says -

According to multiple reports, however, the cameraman in question was on the Patriots' sideline, which would indeed deem the follow photograph a moot point.

Well thats good to know LOL. I was pretty shocked at his audacity if that was him.What makes me mad is thinking about the fact that the Steelers should have 7 Super Bowl rings LOL j/k. Oh well I guess 5 is enough for now wink1.gif

 

[Skanker]

Patriots =

 

[Shrek]

The thing that bothers me about this helping the Pats on Sunday is that Mangini came from the Patriots in 2006. If there are asterisks next to all of the Pats wins going back through all of Belechik's tenure, then Mangini KNEW this was going on and had to have taken counter-measures, including having the camera confiscated.If this is as complex a setup as it sounds like it has to have been to get competitive advantage from it and it goes back as long as it sounds like it has, then Mangini knew about it and the Pats got nothing from it. And why would Belechick do it if Mangini knew about it???

You're making a lot of assumptions here that may be untrue.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

I'm a little bummed out my team cheats.

It goes beyond that. That is just one symptom of a greater illness.

 

[BeachBums]

News is supposedly also on NFL Network.

Rumors of two #1's being surrendered, but nothing solid so far.

Woah. That's harsh.

Not harsh in the least. Teams cannot be allowed to get away with that.

I agree.And I have a hard time understanding how the league can allow the result of a game to stand when one team was cheating during that game. If they don't overturn the game result, by making it a Patriots forfeit, what will they do when similar cheating is discovered during a playoff game or the Super Bowl? Let the result stand and let the cheating team win?

It's very difficult to imagine that happening.

While I agree, I don't think it's practical as there are other situations where this same argument would apply then. Like a game deciding bad call that is indisputable but allowed to stand. I think the jets will have to suffer as the victim which therefore should be reflected in the punishment. It's also not much of a precedent if a team gets caught in a losing effort.

That isn't an apples to apples comparison. A bad call is an mistake, human error. If a team had paid the ref to make the bad call, then it's cheating, which is what this is. Anyway, forfeiture of the game sounds like the least of the Patriots' worries.

 

[Shrek]

As I posted on a Pats board, it is not in the NFL's interest to make any more of a story of this than the media already has.So don't expect the NFL -- on the heels of the Vick debacle -- to further tarnish the name of the league by doling out some huge headline grabbing penalties to it's biggest franchise.There will be no WIN FORFEITED headlines, or Belichick Suspended for the Season or Pats Lose 1st Round Pick, or other such headlines dominating ESPN.It will be Pats fined X amount and 4th round pick or something similar.Story goes away. ESPN starts talking about the games again./end

Yep, Goodell has a history of brushing things like this under the rug. I think you're way off on this one.NFL.com's Adam Schefter reported on NFL Network that the NFL is insisting that New England Patriots head coach Bill Belichick meet with NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell this week to answer questions regarding the Patriots spying incident this past weekend during their game with the New York Jets. Schefter said there is mounting evidence that the Patriots have been spying and/or cheating for years. Schefter speculated that the Patriots could face stiff penalties such as fines, loss of draft picks and suspensions, and perhaps all three. Belichick is expected to meet with Goodell within 24 - 48 hours.

Why does the courtroom scene from "A Few Good Men" come to mind? Who wouldn't love to be a fly on the wall for that conversation?

 

[baconstripdivots]

Well I'm a Pats fan and I'm kind of ticked off about this. Team is too freaking good to need to resort to this. I don't know if its just arrogance that they thought they could get away with it or whether most other teams in the league are doing it as well and they just felt like they needed to stay at an even level. Regardless this is unnecesary BS and Im not going to sugar coat it because its cheating plain and simple. Takes something away from a huge win on Sunday, they don't need this.

See, this guy gets it.

I just watched the game again in hi def. There was definitely some stealin' going on.Ban them.

To all Bengals, Cowboys, Dolphins, Colts, Bills, Ravens & Giants fans....When the cheaters visit your stadium this year, make sure you bring plenty of signs expressing your disappointment. Why does a team that continues to have most of us shaking our heads wondering once again how they pulled it off in the offseason to be one of the favorites to go far, if not all the way to the promised land? Roster and talent aside, they cheat.Goodell has ruled with an iron fist so far, at least from a player standpoint. It will be interesting to see if he drops the hammer on the Patriots front office. From a business standpoint, it's just another black spot on the NFL as a whole. But the Patriots are one of the NFL's top moneymakers, and that makes his decision difficult.I would love nothing more than to see Goodell stick to his guns and completely embarrass the New England Patriots franchise...Don't waiver, Mr. Goodell.Apologies, Patriot fans, but I never liked your franchise, and never will, no matter what you have or will accomplish.Just my .02

 

[Shrek]

As I posted on a Pats board, it is not in the NFL's interest to make any more of a story of this than the media already has.

So don't expect the NFL -- on the heels of the Vick debacle -- to further tarnish the name of the league by doling out some huge headline grabbing penalties to it's biggest franchise.

There will be no WIN FORFEITED headlines, or Belichick Suspended for the Season or Pats Lose 1st Round Pick, or other such headlines dominating ESPN.

It will be Pats fined X amount and 4th round pick or something similar.

Story goes away.

ESPN starts talking about the games again.

/end

Because that's been Roger Goodell's style right?

The harshest penalty I would expect is a Round 3 pick. Anything more and I'd be surprised. There will of course be a token monetary penalty, but that's it.Honestly, they are being penalized for using a video camera -- stealing signals is legal. They merely violated the medium in which they stole the signals.

And again, the rule just went into effect this season.

This thread just keeps getting better and better!

So new laws don't carry the same weight as old laws because they're newer?

Holy #### this thread is pure gold.

 

[Bonginator]

From the Providence Journal blog:

http://www.beloblog.com/ProJo_Blogs/PatsBl...o_official.html

Hey all --

This is what we've written for the Journal concerning "camera-gate":

A spokesman for the National Football League Tuesday night denied ESPN and NFL Network reports from earlier in the day that the league had found the New England Patriots guilty of violating league rules by taping defensive signals during Sunday’s game against the New York Jets.

Greg Aiello, NFL senior vice president of media relations, said there had been no official determination made and that the Patriots had not been notified of any decision, nor has head coach Bill Belichick been summoned to league offices in New York City for a Friday meeting with commissioner Roger Goodell.

“There’s no decision. When there is one, it will be communicated to everyone properly,” Aiello said.

Asked if the league had or will make a phone call to the team, Aiello replied, “I’m sure there’s been many. It’s standard procedure: if you’re looking into a matter, you have to (talk to) both sides.”

NFL security officials confiscated a video camera and tape from New England video assistant Matt Estrella during the game; Estrella was on the Patriots’ sidelines while he was taping New York’s signals.

League rules prohibit teams from using video recording devices in the coaches’ booths, on the field or in the locker room during a game.

Also Tuesday, NFL Network reported that “more evidence was pouring in” to link New England to videotaping signals.

Aiello said the league had nothing further to report when asked if more teams had leveled accusations against the Patriots.

Both the ESPN and NFLN reports said that Goodell was considering sanctions against the Patriots, which could include losing draft picks, fines and/or suspensions.

When the Patriots were contacted for comment on the reports Tuesday night, they deferred all calls to the league office in New York.

Former Houston Texans general manager and current CBS analyst Charley Casserly was the first to report on the Patriots’ alleged use of videotaping last season. In December, Casserly said on the network’s pregame show that the Pats had been warned by the league about having a team official in coaching gear standing on the sidelines with a video camera during one of their first four games of the season. He did not specify which game, though New England’s first four opponents last year were Buffalo, at the Jets, Denver and at Cincinnati.

When asked about Casserly’s December claim, Belichick replied, “Why don’t you go talk to Charley Casserly? He seems to have all the answers on everything, so why don’t you ask him?”

More recently, Green Bay has stepped forward and said that it removed a Patriots’ official – believed to be Estrella – from Lambeau Field during New England’s 35-0 November win over the Packers last year.

The Boston Herald wrote that a member of the Packers’ security staff saw the official videotaping Green Bay defensive signals and relaying them to the Pats’ staff using his own hand signals. The official was asked to leave the field, which he did, but allegedly continued to film and send signals from the tunnel. It was then that he was removed from the stadium.

Detroit and Buffalo have also reportedly complained about similar incidents in their games against New England last year. The Patriots won all three games (two against the Bills).

Estrella is in his third season as a full-time video assistant; the New Bedford native currently lives in Fall River. According to the Patriots’ media guide, his job is to assist video director Jimmy Dee and assistant video director Fernando Neto in editing game and practice tapes for use by team coaches, scouts and players.

A message left at Dee’s residence seeking comment was not returned.

 

[Da Masses]

This would explain why Brady forgot to wear a "raincoat" with Bridget Moynahan and knocked her up.

Belichick forgot to send him film on that type of "coverage"!

 

[BeachBums]

The thing that bothers me about this helping the Pats on Sunday is that Mangini came from the Patriots in 2006. If there are asterisks next to all of the Pats wins going back through all of Belechik's tenure, then Mangini KNEW this was going on and had to have taken counter-measures, including having the camera confiscated.

If this is as complex a setup as it sounds like it has to have been to get competitive advantage from it and it goes back as long as it sounds like it has, then Mangini knew about it and the Pats got nothing from it. And why would Belechick do it if Mangini knew about it???

You're making a lot of assumptions here that may be untrue.

That's true. But if this and if that, wouldn't Mangini have known about it? Is that why they get caught when the Pats played the Jets? And another thing: If this gave the Patriots a competitive advantage in the game, they would have to be calling the defensive schemes in to Brady, which makes him a cheater too. Big leap I know, but if this, if that....

 

[BigSteelThrill]

I can't wait for the movie to come out "The Dynasty*" I could see a dry Bill Murray as Belichick.

There is already a Patriot show in syndication... its called "Cheaters".

 

[mad sweeney]

The thing that bothers me about this helping the Pats on Sunday is that Mangini came from the Patriots in 2006. If there are asterisks next to all of the Pats wins going back through all of Belechik's tenure, then Mangini KNEW this was going on and had to have taken counter-measures, including having the camera confiscated.If this is as complex a setup as it sounds like it has to have been to get competitive advantage from it and it goes back as long as it sounds like it has, then Mangini knew about it and the Pats got nothing from it. And why would Belechick do it if Mangini knew about it???

You're making a lot of assumptions here that may be untrue.

OR what if Magenius had this planned from his days at the Pats and secretly worked with the cameraman with BB unawares. Like a backup plan in case they get smoked. Cameraman goes about his life as a Pats cameraman and cooks up the dovumentary idea while the hoody is diligently game planning and cutting the sleeves off his clothes. Then cameraman films Mangini and other coaches, as per Mangini's plan, for use in case the Jets lose. Mangini knows about the previous incidents from his time and contacts in the Pats orgaznization and figures a way to use BB's rep against him. And thus, the Jets fail to cover Randy Moss, get killed and Operation Frame the Hoodie gets implemented. Think about that one before you start making assumptions...

 

[GregR_2]

I'm sorry but explain this one to me like I don't know anything.How does video tape of the coaches signals help?I understand there are rules not to do it but really, how does it help?Couldn't anyone see this with a high powered camera lens from anywhere in the stadium?J

From Mark Schlereth on SportsCenter tonight: By the time the players come off the field at the end of a series they already have a binder waiting for them with still photos of each play. It would be nothing at all to pair up the signals with the photos and be able to have a visual representation to connect the signal to the play and know when those plays were coming in the 2nd half.

 

[drdgreenlove]

Pats should be requitred to forfeit the game.. losing a draft pick is a dumb penalty..

 

[Ghost Rider]

My question is, how is Bob Kraft going to react to this? He is a honorable and respected owner, and he is not gonna like seeing his organization tainted like this.

 

[Shrek]

My question is, how is Bob Kraft going to react to this? He is a honorable and respected owner, and he is not gonna like seeing his organization tainted like this.

He's in full spin control right now. He's playing the "hater" card:Link

Report: NFL weighing Patriots' punishment for spying on Jets

Sep. 11, 2007

CBSSports.com wire reports

NEW YORK -- The NFL reportedly is considering punishing the New England Patriots for spying on the New York Jets in their season opener.

ESPN.com, citing league sources, reported Tuesday that commissioner Roger Goodell has determined the Patriots violated league rules Sunday when they videotaped defensive signals by the Jets' coaches. But the report also said the Patriots have not yet presented their case to the league.

The website's report said Goodell is considering severe sanctions, including docking the Patriots "multiple draft picks."

A league spokesman, however, said only that an investigation is under way. Both teams said no decision has been made.

NFL security confiscated a video camera and tape from a Patriots employee during New England's 38-14 victory Sunday. The employee was accused of aiming his camera at the Jets' defensive coaches as they signaled to players on the field.

Last season, the Green Bay Packers had an issue with a man wearing a Patriots staff credential who was carrying a video camera on their sideline.

"The rule is that no video recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the coaches' booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the game," the league said Monday in a statement from spokesman Greg Aiello. "Clubs have specifically been reminded in the past that the videotaping of an opponent's offensive or defensive signals on the sidelines is prohibited.

"We are looking into whether the Patriots violated this rule."

There also are questions regarding the Patriots' use of radio frequencies during the game.

Patriots owner Robert Kraft was asked when he expected a verdict, but said those questions had to be directed toward Goodell.

"There is an investigation going on now, and perhaps an adjudication of it, and I think it would be inappropriate at this time to make any comment," Kraft told reporters at a charity appearance Tuesday. "When you're successful in anything, a lot of people like to try to take you down and do different things. We understand that.

"We worked very hard to try to put an organization together that we all could be proud of in New England, and we're very proud of the New England Patriots organization and the record that they've established over the last 13 seasons and one game."

AP NEWS

The Associated Press News Service

Copyright 2006-2007, The Associated Press, All Rights Reserved

 

[Ghost Rider]

In all fairness, Kraft probably made that statement before it was announced late this afternoon that the league had determined for sure that the Pats had cheated, so it will be interesting to see what he has to say now.

 

[SteelersFan4Ever]

I got a good conspiracy theory

In the spirit of 9/11.

The CIA was working in conjunction with the NFL which wanted the Patriots to win multiple Super Bowls to keep us reminded of 9/11 and our successful war on terror. The illegal wire-tapping program was actually designed as a way to help the Patriots steal signals furthering their propaganda machine. Didn't they win their first two Super Bowls starting after 9/11? - think about maaaan.

 

[SSOG]

Has any organization besides Denver been caught blatantly cheating before?

Everyone keeps bringing up the Denver salary cap violations, but as a friend of mine is fond of saying, that's comparing apples and dumptrucks. The league's OFFICIAL STATEMENT on the Denver issue was that they were "plainly designed to help the club cope with seasonal cash flow problems exacerbated by the Broncos' need to fund front-end expenditures associated with development of the new stadium in Denver."In other words, whether a competitive advantage was gained or not (Bowlen says no advantage was gained, and I tend to agree- it's not like Elway raised his game to a whole new level because instead of depositing his paycheck and earning interest, he got it a year later with a year worth of interest), there was no INTENT to gain a competitive advantage. I don't think anyone can make a similar argument in New England's favor in this matter. Like I said, apples and dumptrucks... or, if you'd rather, murder and criminal negligence.

I am laughing at the comedy of the outrage from teams who have been the Pats' whipping boys during BB's tenure.

My Broncos are 5-1 against the Pats since the "dynasty" started, with the lone loss coming by 4 points in a game where they were forced to start their third-string QB (Danny Freaking Kanell). Am I allowed to be outraged by this, or do I have some secret agenda, too?

IMO, many (maybe even most) teams try to steal/crack signals in some way, shape, or form. The Pats broke the no camera rule. Is this that much out of bounds to what others are or have been doing? Probably not . . . the differnce is they got caught.

I would bet Tony Dungy doesn't do it.

Just because he looks like Ghandi and talks like Ghandi doesn't mean he acts like Ghandi. Check some of his injury reports from last season and then get back to me on whether Tony Dungy is really above circumventing the rules in a cheap attempt to gain a competitive advantage.

 

[NYCGangGreen]

As a lifelong Jets fan, if this proves to be true......its sickening to think of the AFC East with this stigma as it will not go away quickly.

But if it is true.....here is the only problem......

The Patriots are "accused" of stealing Defensive Signals, so that would help their offense no doubt.

But they didn't steal "Offensive" plays.......so it doesn't explain why the Jets offense was blah.

either way....guilty or not.....they will still have the upper hand in the division...

FWIW - I still despise BB and the Pats, but worry more about how my team will perform then how this alters any playcalling.

 

[TheLimeChicken]

In all fairness, Kraft probably made that statement before it was announced late this afternoon that the league had determined for sure that the Pats had cheated, so it will be interesting to see what he has to say now.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d8...mp;confirm=trueI'm probably just playing semantics here, but in my mind this is an important distinction. The league has NOT determined for sure that the Patriots have CHEATED. They have said that they were in violation of league rules prohibiting rules regarding the use of video on the sidelines and are looking into whether or not they have violated any rules concerning the video taping of coaching signals.

Maybe I'm just too much into the whole innocent until proven guilty thing that's supposed to govern our society, but while I have no problem with the discussion of what the penalties might, or should, be or what effect such behavior might have on the integrity, perceived and actual, of the league, I'm certainly not willing to label anyone a dirty cheater or anything of the like until the process has been completed and everything hashed out.

That said, I still do think it's likely that there's some level of guilt here, but I would also be interested to see the public reaction if somehow the Patriots were found not guilty. All that we know for FACTS are that there was a video camera, it was confiscated, there were suspicions that the tape contained defensive signals, and that said suspicions were confirmed upon league review of the tape. What happens now if Goodell comes out in the next couple of days and announces something like "Yes, the tape did contain some footage of NYJet coaching signals. However, this was clearly not the purpose or sole intent of the videotape, just something that happened to be in the background of the footage. In addition, there is no evidence that said videotape was either reviewed by or communicated to any Patriot coaching personnel during, or after the game in question."?

Just a curious hypothetical. I think the chances of something like that are VERY unlikely, but in the fans and media conscious New England is already guilty, on the slim chance that their found to not be what's the reaction? Are they vindicated (I doubt it) or is the league favoring those damn Patriots (what I think would be the mass opinion)?

 

[Idiot Boxer]

Has any organization besides Denver been caught blatantly cheating before?

According to ESPN, the Steelers were fined a 3rd round draft pick for having an off-season practice in pads.If the cost for having an offseason practice in pads is a 3rd round pick, I'd say stealing signals in a regular season contest deserves a good bit more.

 

[The Jerk]

Has any organization besides Denver been caught blatantly cheating before?

According to ESPN, the Steelers were fined a 3rd round draft pick for having an off-season practice in pads.If the cost for having an offseason practice in pads is a 3rd round pick, I'd say stealing signals in a regular season contest deserves a good bit more.

The Steelers twice lost third-round draft choices for minor violations of NFL rules. They were caught wearing shoulder pads in a minicamp in 1978 and lost a pick in the 1979 draft. They were found in a minor violation of the salary cap and lost a pick in the 2001 draft.

LinkOther quotes from article:

Steelers assistant coaches say privately that New England coach Bill Belichick has illegally used cameras to spy on opposing coaches flashing signals from the sideline for years, even when he was coach of the Cleveland Browns.

(snip)

One assistant said the Steelers changed their defensive signals whenever they played against New England because of their suspicions.

 

[Reaper]

"When you're successful in anything, a lot of people like to try to take you down and do different things. We understand that.

Does he post here????????

 

[Shrek]

The most irritating part of this is not the incident itself. That will work itself out. The part that's so stupid is certain New England fans saying, "This isn't a big issue. Everybody does it. You're just being a hater."

This isn't about being a New England hater. This is about being a cheater hater.

 

[Wilbur Wood]

This will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

Is the NFL still "a good ole boy" club? The Commish is hired by and really works for the NFL owners. Kraft is a very well regarded and influential owner -- probably greater than 1/32 clout and influence.

RG has been very tough on "street crime" -- Pac Man, Henry, Tank, Vick

Players that "cheat" are gone for at least 4 games -- Harrison, Merriman

How will "white collar" crime be handled by RG? Will he suspend BB? If not, double standard? Or, simply the reality that Kraft is one of Goddell's bosses and BB is a de facto extension of Kraft. Forfeiting a draft pick and a token fine is akin to "fining" the multi-millionaire Wall Street trader for "insider trading". A firm suspension of BB is akin to "jail time". RG rightfully doles out "jail sentences" for "street crime".

Very interesting to see how this plays out.

 

[greenline]

LOL This is great and all but let's wait it out and see what happens. This board has been about 30 pages of speculation and prosecution from arm chair lawyers.

 

[PatsWillWin]

The most irritating part of this is not the incident itself. That will work itself out. The part that's so stupid is certain New England fans saying, "This isn't a big issue. Everybody does it. You're just being a hater."This isn't about being a New England hater. This is about being a cheater hater.

Sadly, the "everyone's doing it" defense is actually the least objectionable excuse going on around here.Some are maintaining that Belichick didn't know about it (see the "rogue cameraman" thread in the SP).Others are saying that the Patriots don't get any benefit from it anyway (even though we Patriot fans have been calling Belichick a genius for years, we today think he's stupid enough to risk this kind of distraction, penalty, and negative pub to break the rules without getting any kind of gain).Oh and even though this guy is an outlier, a caller on EEI just said that Belichick did it specifically to Mangini even though he knew that Mangini would know in order to get caught on PURPOSE to raise AWARENESS of this signal-stealing problem in the NFL because he wants it out of the league because he thinks he can beat them all on the up and up and doesn't want everyone else cheating.It'd be hilarious if it weren't so sad...and if I wasn't such a huge Pats fan.

 

[Frenchy Fuqua]

Eric Mangini exposes Bill Belichick's spy games

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football...chicks_spy.html

BY RICH CIMINI

DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER

Wednesday, September 12th 2007, 4:00 AM

Armed with counter-intelligence from Eric Mangini, the Jets apparently have succeeded in busting the Patriots' spy ring.

A former assistant under Bill Belichick, Mangini arrived in New York last year with an insider's knowledge of the Patriots' sign-stealing surveillance tactics and he shared the dirty little secret with members of the Jets' organization, a person with knowledge of the matter informed the Daily News yesterday.

It wasn't until the fifth Mangini-Belichick showdown - last Sunday - that the Jets were able to catch the Patriots. Tipped off by Jets security, an NFL security official confiscated a video camera and tape from a Patriots employee at the Meadowlands, and the evidence is believed to be damning.

Commissioner Roger Goodell hasn't made a final decision, according to a high-level source, but he wants to resolve the issue ASAP. A league spokesman refuted an ESPN report last night that said Goodell already has determined that the Patriots violated league rules.

An announcement could be made by the end of the week. The Patriots, who will have a chance to present their side to Goodell by Friday, could be stripped of multiple draft choices and/or fined heavily.

Matt Estrella, 26, a Patriots video assistant, was nabbed just before halftime of the Jets' 38-14 loss on opening day. He allegedly videotaped hand signals from the Jets' defensive coaches on the sideline, defying an edict from Goodell, who warned teams before the season that he wouldn't tolerate cheating. Several teams have suspected the Patriots of stealing signs. So did the Jets, thanks to Mangini.

"(The Jets) knew they did it," the person with knowledge of the situation said in an e-mail to the Daily News. "They caught the guy a year ago, but couldn't do anything about it. When Eric came, he said that's what they used to do. Bill is going to be (ticked) at Eric. He kissed and told."

Mangini, hired last year by the Jets, coached under Belichick from 2000 to 2005 in New England. Their once-close relationship has frayed, and this latest chapter in the Border War has raised the hostility to all-time levels.

New details came to light yesterday. The cameraman, wearing a team polo shirt under the league-mandated sideline photographer's vest, was stopped by security as he tried to enter the New England locker room before halftime, sources said. An animated discussion ensued, involving league security, Jets security and Patriots security.

The dispute, which occurred in the bowels of the stadium, lasted more than an hour, virtually the entire second half. At one point, it became so heated that New Jersey state troopers were summoned as a precaution, a source said. The Jets apparently were trying to confiscate the videotape, which wound up in the possession of NFL security. The tape was placed in a box, sealed and forwarded to the league.

"He looked scared to death," one source said of Estrella.

It's unclear if the Patriots had a chance to review the tape before it was seized, raising the question of whether it helped them in the game. They certainly played like they knew the Jets' strategy. In the second half, Tom Brady completed 10 of 11 passes for 138 yards and a touchdown.

"He seemed like he knew what we were doing," safety Kerry Rhodes said.

No video recording devices of any kind are permitted on the field, in the locker room or in the coaches' booth during a game, according to league rules.

Patriots owner Robert Kraft said yesterday it would be inappropriate to comment directly on the accusations, but he hinted that the Jets' actions may have stemmed from being envious of his team's success.

"When you're successful in anything, a lot of people like to try to take you down and do different things," he told reporters at a charity appearance. "We understand that."

The Jets have declined comment, saying it's a league matter.

Belichick, addressing the situation for the first time late Monday on his Boston radio show, acknowledged he was aware of the incident at the game. Beyond that, he provided little insight, saying, "It's a league thing. Whatever the deal is, which I don't even know the details of, a lot of it, we'll comply."

This isn't the first time the Jets and Patriots have accused each other of wrongdoing. A year ago, the Patriots filed tampering charges against the Jets, claiming they conducted improper discussions with Deion Branch when the wide receiver was given permission to seek a trade. After an intensive, four-month investigation, the Jets were exonerated.

Patriots bashing apparently has become popular. Chargers running back LaDainian Tomlinson, who questioned Belichick's integrity after a playoff loss last January, said Monday he wasn't surprised by Spy Gate.

"I think the Patriots actually live by the saying, 'If you're not cheating, you're not trying,'" he told reporters in San Diego.

The Chargers and Patriots meet this Sunday.

PATRIOT GAMES

According to a former coach, this is likely how and why the Patriots stole the Jets defensive signals:

The person with the camera, in this case, Patriots video assistant Matt Estrella, would tape the coach's hand signals as he sends the defense in. Then the camera person would verbally call out down and distance so the recorder's microphone would pick it up. Then when the tape is analyzed, the hand signals are matched up to down and distance and defensive scheme.

"They would have it all chronicled such as: 4-3 even defense, cover 2, hand to the belt, index finger up," the coach said. "Now if you had a sharp guy in the huddle who was in for every play, you would teach him the signals and he would look over to the sidelines and steal the signals and tell the quarterback."

 

[BeachBums]

Sirius 2-minute drill is saying that BB has spoken with Roger Goodell this morning and that the team will have a statement this morning.

 

[jon_mx]

"When you're successful in anything, a lot of people like to try to take you down and do different things. We understand that.

Just ask Barry Bonds

 

[reg]

from yahoo:

The National Football League's greatest rogue philosopher offered the most succinct and enduring mission statement about the league and the game of football.

"Just win, baby," Oakland Raiders managing partner Al Davis always says, cutting to the chase like no one else.

There is no honor in the NFL. This is our most violent game, a cut-throat, all-out, win-at-all-costs sport where cheating – be it holding on the line, bumping in the secondary, or injecting a drug in the corner of a weight room – is, if not applauded, at the very least accepted.

Each sport has a culture and what people raise hell about in baseball, golf or basketball is mostly shrugged off in the NFL. That this is far and away our most popular sporting pursuit – the new national pastime – says as much about America as it does about the league's morals.

So what to make of the NFL's present-day coaching deity, Bill Belichick, the one who has won three of the last six Super Bowls but now is embroiled in a cheating scandal?

NFL commissioner Roger Goodell has "determined" that a New England Patriots employee videotaped the New York Jets defensive signals in a 38-14 victory Sunday, according to ESPN. The commissioner awaits the Pats' defense later this week.

So is Belichick the greatest Machiavellian mind in this ruthless game, one who just happened to get caught this time? Or is he just a lout and a cheat?

Is he an NFL problem or is he the NFL; a byproduct of a business where a coach that doesn't seek every last advantage is doomed to fail, like an honest politician?

"I think the Patriots actually live by the saying, 'If you're not cheating, you're not trying,' " said San Diego Chargers running back LaDainian Tomlinson.

Here's the thing with Belichick: this charge fits perfectly with everything we know about him on and off the field. He's no angel, a lifetime of drama that ranged from backing out of contracts, feuding with mentors (Bill Parcells) and protégés (Eric Mangini) alike and even giving the tabloids plenty of fodder for his, ah, extracurricular behavior, if you will.

But it also fits with everything we know about the NFL. Don't coaches hide their mouths when they speak, use multiple sideline signalers and guard playbooks with their lives? Wouldn't they sell their soul to know what an opponent is thinking?

"Really, it's nothing new," said Pittsburgh Steelers coach Mike Tomlin about signal stealing. "When you see offensive coordinators covering their mouth – and that's been going on a long time – that's one of the reasons why that's done.

"You hear rumors of things of that nature," Tomlin said, noting it often comes from the "New England family." "In terms of confirming it, it's never been confirmed in any instance to my knowledge. But usually where there is smoke, there's fire. Those rumors are founded on something. So it's not totally shocking, no."

Not shocking, perhaps. But embarrassing? Absolutely. The Green Bay Packers claim they caught a Patriots employee videotaping their signals a year ago and complained to the NFL.

If New England's defense is as feeble as expected, then the franchise should be punished. The rules are the rules, no matter how often they are broken; no matter the base culture.

Goodell should take a draft pick or even suspend Belichick, who's iron-fisted leadership means no employee would dare try this without his knowledge. Stealing signals via the human eye is one thing. Having an employee use a video camera speaks to an operation that is both brazen and premeditated.

It also shows the depths these coaches will go for a competitive edge. When properly executed, the advantage would be considerable. But in this instance, the risk/reward variable seems painfully small since the Patriots are more than capable of whippin' the Jets all on their own.

Perhaps that's just football. Whether Belichick is actually worse (or better) than any other coach in the league is difficult to determine. All of these coaches are nuts. To be an NFL coach is to work endless 100-hour weeks, sleep in your office and go bleary-eyed looking for the slightest flaw in an opponents’ Tampa 2. Then you wind up losing because a kicker goes wide right.

They sacrifice everything in their lives in pursuit of victories. The casualties are easy to see: health, marriage, children, sanity. It's why NFL football coaches, despite being multimillionaires, are perhaps the single most miserable group of people you'll ever know.

If you are willing to virtually abandon your wife and kids to win a game, what won't you do?

The NFL isn't alone here. Cheating is everywhere. And it can be confusing, each sport has a different culture. In golf, you can't improve your lie an inch, yet in soccer flopping is considered a skill. In baseball, cheating pitchers are colorful but corked-bat hitters are condemned. In NASCAR, a crew chief that isn't pushing the legal limits of engineering isn't doing his job. College sports is often hailed for its "purity," yet illegal recruiting is so prevalent former UNLV coach Jerry Tarkanian once surmised, "Nine out of 10 teams are cheating, the other is in last place."

So why expect anything less in the NFL? Fans want victories and nothing else. There are no illusions of purity here. They'll gladly cheer for players who can range from miscreant to felon. The players themselves will vote peers who have been busted taking performance enhancing drugs into the Pro Bowl.

Nobody cares. Nothing matters. If you're not cheating, you're not trying. Just win, baby.

That's the NFL. And that is the world that would lead someone such as Bill Belichick, someone with so much to lose, to insanely risk his reputation on the long shot that a small advantage might provide just one more victory he probably would have gotten anyway.

 

[Franknbeans]

I think a more fitting punishment is forfeit of the game played. Draft picks taken hurts them into the future. How is that appropriate?

It is appropriate in that it sends a message to every organization in the league not to cheat.

 

[((Morpheus))]

Can someone explain a couple of things to me:

1. How is this cheating? Can't any team just look across the sidelines and pick up on signals? Is it analogous to a runner on 2nd stealing signs from the catcher?

2. How does this even help? Are the Patriots relaying plays real time based upon perceived defensive schemes?

3. Why isn't every team in the NFL doing this?

 

[The_Man]

Love the fact that the Jets were able to catch them since Mangini had been in on the racket for years as a Patriot.

 

[jon_mx]

Can someone explain a couple of things to me:1. How is this cheating? Can't any team just look across the sidelines and pick up on signals? Is it analogous to a runner on 2nd stealing signs from the catcher?2. How does this even help? Are the Patriots relaying plays real time based upon perceived defensive schemes?3. Why isn't every team in the NFL doing this?

Because it is against the rules. Teams have an expectation of some privacy so they can call their plays and not have the other team know what they are doing. When teams break the rules buy using video or electronic surveillance, they break any reasonable level of expectation and are clearly cheating. I can't believe people are defending this level of cheating.

 

[St. Louis Bob]

I'm shocked.

:2001: