ESPYs thread (1 Viewer)

[ConnSKINS26]

The willful ignorance in this thread is honestly pretty scary. Every time it feels like we've made social progress in this country, another issue arises and it becomes apparent that most people aren't actually becoming more open-minded, their opinions are just slowly being shamed into silence as they become the minority. Makes me think that people aren't actually becoming accepting, they're just shutting up as their opinions become unpopular. That's a shame, but it will happen on the transgender issue as well. This thread is going to be incredibly embarrassing for some in 5-10 years.

Let me give you a real scenario...Local high school has a so called transgender student....Same situation as Bruce...He /she by law gets to go into the girls bathroom and take his schlong out in front of the under aged girls and take a piss....If a boy were to do that he would be in jail as a sex offender...You ok with that Mister all inclusive.

These kinds of things just really don't matter. They work themselves out once people accept the new status quo. People would have asked the same question about gay dudes twenty years ago. "So what, they can just be on the wrestling team and check out other guys' junk in the locker room after practice, and that's okay?"People tend to demonize that which the don't understand. You're doing it here. You're projecting a predator mindset onto an entire population of transgender individuals, just to create a ridiculous hypothetical.

Newsflash: a transgender girl or woman wishes she wasn't stuck with the penis she has (and which barely works at all due to hormone therapy), because she feels like a normal woman. She's not whipping it out in a girls bathroom and sexually harassing anyone with it.

You betray all kinds of ignorance with these posts. You think you're asking a legitimate question, but it just highlights your cluelessness. It's akin to someone saying "if we let people marry whoever they want, they'll start marrying their house cats or their first cousins!"

It's nonsensical and it shows a complete misunderstanding of the topic at hand.

unless or until he/she makes an advance on a female student in the bathroom.

Anyone could do that. A lesbian could do that. It's not an important distinction that the student in question is transgender and has a useless penis.Again, you're projecting a predator mindset onto an entire population to justify a hypothetical that could involve anybody, really.

Should gay men not be allowed in the men's locker room or bathroom?

Should gay women not be allowed in the women's locker room or bathroom?

 

[BroncoFreak_2K3]

Mostly serious question...

Am I allowed to be accepting and open minded on the transgender issue but still think Caitlyn Jenner is a tremendous piece of #### and want nothing to do with ever seeing or hearing from her again?

Seems like a lot of both sides on the issue are confusing a few of the posters here with outcry over Jenner/espys as being bigoted or resistance to the transgender movement in this country.

Absolutely. She doesn't strike me as the greatest and most noble human on earth either.

But I really don't know much about her, so I'm confused as to where these passionately negative feelings about her come from. Is it because she's a Kardashian by marriage? As someone else said, she never really seemed interested in drumming up fake drama for the reality show, or even in participating is the show. She just kind of stayed in the background until the divorce and the decision to go public with her transition. And sure, now she's making a reality TV show about that transition, but lots of celebrities participate in reality TV, that doesn't seem like a big deal in this day and age. Is it because of something else she's done or said recently? The accident sure seems worthy of condemnation, but it's quite a leap from that to saying someone is "a tremendous piece of #### and want nothing to do with ever seeing or hearing from her again." Is it because people didn't like Bruce Jenner the golden boy back in the 70s? I don't really remember much about that.

I loved Bruce Jenner the Olympian, I thought everyone did, but I was just a kid too

I don't think Caitlyn Jenner had much to lose by doing this at this point in time, but there was something to gain as we can see. I do appreciate the point Spock and Tim have made as well, about how having a famous face behind this issue can't be a bad thing. But when it comes down to it I don't see a whole lot of true COURAGE here, so much as opportunism.

Boom

 

[CBusAlex]

unless or until he/she makes an advance on a female student in the bathroom.

We probably shouldn't let teh transgendered use the same libraries as our underaged girls either. They might make an advance on them there too. And don't even get me started about the swimming pools.

 

[SIDA!]

If the world was cruel to him for being left handed, I would fight for him. It's not his fault he's left handed. He was born that way.And it's no one's "fault". There's nothing wrong with being born left handed than there is being born transgender. The world just has a bigotry towards one.

So as long as you are born a certain way, then society is just being bigoted if they don't accept it?

As long as its not hurting anyone else? Yes. Why not?

Why is this the litmus test?There are a lot of things that society limits or even makes illegal and those actions or activities do not hurt anyone else.

Give me an example of something society limits or discriminates against that you can be born with? I'll wait.

I wasn't limiting my statement to just things people are born with. I was saying that we as a society limit things people can do even if it doesn't hurt anybody else (be you born a certain way or choose to engage in a certain behavior).

As far as being born a certain way...to my knowledge it hasn't been proven scientifically that people are born gay. But assuming for a second that people can be born gay, why is it a logical leap to think people can't be born or wired to love more than one person and engage in polyamorous unions? Those are discriminated against?

It is now widely believed that alcoholism and addiction in general are things that you are born with, along with "fat genes", etc. We limit some of these behaviors and/or shame these behaviors. And there are people also trying to say that pedophilia/attraction to minors/etc. is part of human wiring in some people. Some people argue that children should have free will over their own sexuality. Yada yada yada.

 

[Pots]

His takeaway was about as reasonable as yours. You saw a post expressing concern about the large number of transgender kids who commit suicide (it is probably is thousands, btw- 41% of transgenders have attempted suicide) and decided that you should criticize him for not focusing on bullying instead of transgender issues, even though you (1) have no idea if he's also concerned with/working on bullying; and (2) ignored the obvious fact that we can likely reduce the transgender suicide attempts simply by being more tolerant and encouraging of transgenders and there's no corresponding "quick fix" to bullying.

Link to the thousands?

Study estimating the US transgender population at 700,000

41% of transgenders attempt suicide

Obviously there's some difficulty around the margins with that data- those are merely attempts, not deaths, and it's possible that some of them weren't "genuine" attempts to end one's life. And then you'd have to adjust downward based on what you considered "kids" or "teens" or whatever, although saving adult lives is also pretty important. Still, it's hard to imagine that the number of suicides isn't in the thousands, considering that around 300,000 transgenders in the United States alone have attempted suicide is those studies are accurate.

Yes, attempt and commit are two different things.

If you prefer another tack, here's a post linking a study estimated the global transgender suicide rate at 800/100,000 (normal rate is13/100,000 here and 16/100,000 globally). Again, I can't give you an exact statistic because I don't know that it's been compiled accurately but some basic math will lead you to the inevitable conclusion that the number of transgender suicide deaths is in the four digits at least.

People should stop posting links to articles that cite 'statistics' and instead read the study themselves FIRST before attempting to use any numbers to back up their point. Articles have agendas, even some studies have agendas, and it's the job of the reader to discern what information is valid and what information is cherry picked and misrepresentative.

"One clinical study reported a disproportionate number of suicide deaths among Dutch transsexual women and men receiving hormone therapy, compared to the general population (van Kesteren et al., 1997). Another international review of studies that followed over 2,000 persons in 13 countries who had undergone gender reassignment surgery identified 16 possible suicide deaths (Pfäfflin & Junge, 1998). If confirmed as actual suicides, these figures would translate to an alarmingly high rate of 800 suicides for every 100,000 post-surgery transsexuals. By contrast, the current suicide rate for the overall U.S. population is 11.5 suicides per 100,000 people. It is not clear whether this very high suicide rate still exists among transexuals."

So it was a 1998 study identified 16 possible suicide deaths out of 2000 people they tracked in 13 countries. Now there's no doubt that transgenders face hardships from their peers (especially in countries outside the US) and some unfortunately turn to suicide possibly because of it, but don't inflate the perception of the problem just because it's the flavor of the year and an article is trying to get clicks.

 

[ConnSKINS26]

If the world was cruel to him for being left handed, I would fight for him. It's not his fault he's left handed. He was born that way.And it's no one's "fault". There's nothing wrong with being born left handed than there is being born transgender. The world just has a bigotry towards one.

So as long as you are born a certain way, then society is just being bigoted if they don't accept it?

As long as its not hurting anyone else? Yes. Why not?

Why is this the litmus test?There are a lot of things that society limits or even makes illegal and those actions or activities do not hurt anyone else.

Give me an example of something society limits or discriminates against that you can be born with? I'll wait.

I wasn't limiting my statement to just things people are born with. I was saying that we as a society limit things people can do even if it doesn't hurt anybody else (be you born a certain way or choose to engage in a certain behavior).As far as being born a certain way...to my knowledge it hasn't been proven scientifically that people are born gay. But assuming for a second that people can be born gay, why is it a logical leap to think people can't be born or wired to love more than one person and engage in polyamorous unions? Those are discriminated against?

It is now widely believed that alcoholism and addiction in general are things that you are born with, along with "fat genes", etc. We limit some of these behaviors and/or shame these behaviors.

Maybe those groups needs advocates as well, and maybe in the future things will change for them as well. I don't claim to have all the answers. I knew a girl in college in a polyamorous relationship. Should she and her partners receive the same protections and benefits of marriage? I don't know the logistics of that, so I can't really say. It's not really related, though I appreciate you bringing up some legitimate points. It's food for thought.I just fail to see how most of them relate to the transgender issue. And it definitely doesn't relate to the things I think you're alluding to in terms of society limiting people (drugs, etc.)

I just don't really get this mindset: well, we discriminate against other groups with equally legitimate claims to equality, so why should anything change for THIS group? One thing at a time, man. Life isn't fair, women and African Americans didn't get the vote at the same time. It takes time for society to change.

So other groups may very well deserve the same treatment we're arguing the transgender population deserves...but that's no reason to argue against transgenders.

 

[T J]

The willful ignorance in this thread is honestly pretty scary. Every time it feels like we've made social progress in this country, another issue arises and it becomes apparent that most people aren't actually becoming more open-minded, their opinions are just slowly being shamed into silence as they become the minority. Makes me think that people aren't actually becoming accepting, they're just shutting up as their opinions become unpopular. That's a shame, but it will happen on the transgender issue as well. This thread is going to be incredibly embarrassing for some in 5-10 years.

Let me give you a real scenario...Local high school has a so called transgender student....Same situation as Bruce...He /she by law gets to go into the girls bathroom and take his schlong out in front of the under aged girls and take a piss....If a boy were to do that he would be in jail as a sex offender...You ok with that Mister all inclusive.

These kinds of things just really don't matter. They work themselves out once people accept the new status quo. People would have asked the same question about gay dudes twenty years ago. "So what, they can just be on the wrestling team and check out other guys' junk in the locker room after practice, and that's okay?"

People tend to demonize that which the don't understand. You're doing it here. You're projecting a predator mindset onto an entire population of transgender individuals, just to create a ridiculous hypothetical.

Newsflash: a transgender girl or woman wishes she wasn't stuck with the penis she has (and which barely works at all due to hormone therapy), because she feels like a normal woman. She's not whipping it out in a girls bathroom and sexually harassing anyone with it.

You betray all kinds of ignorance with these posts. You think you're asking a legitimate question, but it just highlights your cluelessness. It's akin to someone saying "if we let people marry whoever they want, they'll start marrying their house cats or their first cousins!"

It's nonsensical and it shows a complete misunderstanding of the topic at hand.

Why? Because you say so? From my perspective, you're showing a pretty nonsensical and misunderstood take on opposing views. Not everyone feels the same as you. Just the way it is. That does not make their view nonsense and misunderstood. It's the elitist, superior attitude being shown that makes you all appear to me to be.....well....hateful.

 

[Politician Spock]

The context of my post is that kids are killing themselves. How you ignore that and see some other context is your burden to explain. You and millions of other people like you defining the world around them is why they kill themselves. Justify what you do however you wish. I know you have to sleep at night because you obviously have no intent to change.

One of the worst posts in the history of the internets.

Feel free to attack me. I can take it. I'm fighting for kids who shouldn't have to fight this, and as such willingly take your crap.

Thanks for fighting for my left handed son. The world is so cruel to him.

If the world was cruel to him for being left handed, I would fight for him. It's not his fault he's left handed. He was born that way.And it's no one's "fault". There's nothing wrong with being born left handed than there is being born transgender. The world just has a bigotry towards one.

So as long as you are born a certain way, then society is just being bigoted if they don't accept it?

If you don't like the word "bigot", then what word would you prefer to describe a world that rejects them?

How is disagreeing with the connection of Bruce Jenner liking to wear a dress and being courageous, considered bigoted.

I didn't think it was courageous either.... until I saw the outrage, backlash and hate for her being awarded for it. Now I see why she deserved the award.

There's that "hate" word again. You people think everything centers around hate. Newsflash.... IT DOESN'T. I don't hate Jenner. I don't hate transgendered people. I think it's abnormal and I'm not a fan - AT ALL - but I don't outwardly put forth my feeling that it's abnormal (save for open discussions such as this). Whatever they want to do is up to them. I don't have to like it, but I certainly understand they have that choice. I choose to think Jenner is a freak, but I don't hate him for it. There is a huge difference that is just being glossed right over. Talk about intolerance. It's almost like reverse intolerance on this board. Ridiculous.

I'm willing to use what ever word you want to use to describe your feelings... as long as the word reflects the negativity that obviously exists when you use words like "freak", as these are the words this kids hear over and over and over again that leads to their suicidal tendencies.

 

[TobiasFunke]

His takeaway was about as reasonable as yours. You saw a post expressing concern about the large number of transgender kids who commit suicide (it is probably is thousands, btw- 41% of transgenders have attempted suicide) and decided that you should criticize him for not focusing on bullying instead of transgender issues, even though you (1) have no idea if he's also concerned with/working on bullying; and (2) ignored the obvious fact that we can likely reduce the transgender suicide attempts simply by being more tolerant and encouraging of transgenders and there's no corresponding "quick fix" to bullying.

Link to the thousands?

Study estimating the US transgender population at 700,000

41% of transgenders attempt suicide

Obviously there's some difficulty around the margins with that data- those are merely attempts, not deaths, and it's possible that some of them weren't "genuine" attempts to end one's life. And then you'd have to adjust downward based on what you considered "kids" or "teens" or whatever, although saving adult lives is also pretty important. Still, it's hard to imagine that the number of suicides isn't in the thousands, considering that around 300,000 transgenders in the United States alone have attempted suicide is those studies are accurate.

Yes, attempt and commit are two different things.

If you prefer another tack, here's a post linking a study estimated the global transgender suicide rate at 800/100,000 (normal rate is13/100,000 here and 16/100,000 globally). Again, I can't give you an exact statistic because I don't know that it's been compiled accurately but some basic math will lead you to the inevitable conclusion that the number of transgender suicide deaths is in the four digits at least.

People should stop posting links to articles that cite 'statistics' and instead read the study themselves FIRST before attempting to use any numbers to back up their point. Articles have agendas, even some studies have agendas, and it's the job of the reader to discern what information is valid and what information is cherry picked and misrepresentative.

"One clinical study reported a disproportionate number of suicide deaths among Dutch transsexual women and men receiving hormone therapy, compared to the general population (van Kesteren et al., 1997). Another international review of studies that followed over 2,000 persons in 13 countries who had undergone gender reassignment surgery identified 16 possible suicide deaths (Pfäfflin & Junge, 1998). If confirmed as actual suicides, these figures would translate to an alarmingly high rate of 800 suicides for every 100,000 post-surgery transsexuals. By contrast, the current suicide rate for the overall U.S. population is 11.5 suicides per 100,000 people. It is not clear whether this very high suicide rate still exists among transexuals."

So it was a 1998 study identified 16 possible suicide deaths out of 2000 people they tracked in 13 countries. Now there's no doubt that transgenders face hardships from their peers (especially in countries outside the US) and some unfortunately turn to suicide possibly because of it, but don't inflate the perception of the problem just because it's the flavor of the year and an article is trying to get clicks.

I appreciate your concern for accuracy. But I stated in the post (the bolded) that there was no accurate compilation so I was relying on a couple different things to draw what I considered to be a pretty much inevitable conclusion about a likely baseline in the four digits. This was the second post on the subject, after posting about the 41% attempted suicide statistic (which I also pointed out would be much higher than the death toll) and estimates of the total trans population in the US.

I used all of that together to say that it leads to the conclusion that the number is almost certainly higher than 999. I think these numbers and studies, taken together, make that a reasonable conclusion. Especially considering the lack of evidence to the contrary. i.e. that the transgender suicide rate is low or is about the same as the rate among the overall population.

 

[Politician Spock]

The context of my post is that kids are killing themselves. How you ignore that and see some other context is your burden to explain. You and millions of other people like you defining the world around them is why they kill themselves. Justify what you do however you wish. I know you have to sleep at night because you obviously have no intent to change.

One of the worst posts in the history of the internets.

Feel free to attack me. I can take it. I'm fighting for kids who shouldn't have to fight this, and as such willingly take your crap.

Thanks for fighting for my left handed son. The world is so cruel to him.

If the world was cruel to him for being left handed, I would fight for him. It's not his fault he's left handed. He was born that way.And it's no one's "fault". There's nothing wrong with being born left handed than there is being born transgender. The world just has a bigotry towards one.

So as long as you are born a certain way, then society is just being bigoted if they don't accept it?

If you don't like the word "bigot", then what word would you prefer to describe a world that rejects them?

This falls in line to what I was saying about how we change the definitions of words to suit our political agenda or belief system.Since when did "bigot" mean any person who disagrees with another person's lifestyle or opinion?

You position is seemingly the following:

1. I am a tolerant, progressive and essentially superior person because of it.

2. Thus, if you disagree with my opinion on X, that makes you a bigot.

In your opinion, is it possible for a person to be against gay marriage or on the other side of transgender issues, etc without them being a bigot in your eyes?

When I was a Christian, I engaged in mental gymnastics to answer yes to that question. Now that I'm no longer a Christian and no longer engage in mental gymnastics to support Biblical inerrancy, I answer no. I'm not insinuating that your position is Christian or biblical. I'm just saying I'm sick of mental gymnastics at this point of my life due to my Christian background.

Just because you engaged in mental gymnastics, doesn't mean all Christians do.

I agree. It's the Biblical inerrancy crowd that relies on it.

 

[JZilla]

Mostly serious question...

Am I allowed to be accepting and open minded on the transgender issue but still think Caitlyn Jenner is a tremendous piece of #### and want nothing to do with ever seeing or hearing from her again?

Seems like a lot of both sides on the issue are confusing a few of the posters here with outcry over Jenner/espys as being bigoted or resistance to the transgender movement in this country.

Absolutely. She doesn't strike me as the greatest and most noble human on earth either.

But I really don't know much about her, so I'm confused as to where these passionately negative feelings about her come from. Is it because she's a Kardashian by marriage? As someone else said, she never really seemed interested in drumming up fake drama for the reality show, or even in participating is the show. She just kind of stayed in the background until the divorce and the decision to go public with her transition. And sure, now she's making a reality TV show about that transition, but lots of celebrities participate in reality TV, that doesn't seem like a big deal in this day and age. Is it because of something else she's done or said recently? The accident sure seems worthy of condemnation, but it's quite a leap from that to saying someone is "a tremendous piece of #### and want nothing to do with ever seeing or hearing from her again." Is it because people didn't like Bruce Jenner the golden boy back in the 70s? I don't really remember much about that.

I loved Bruce Jenner the Olympian, I thought everyone did, but I was just a kid too

I don't think Caitlyn Jenner had much to lose by doing this at this point in time, but there was something to gain as we can see. I do appreciate the point Spock and Tim have made as well, about how having a famous face behind this issue can't be a bad thing. But when it comes down to it I don't see a whole lot of true COURAGE here, so much as opportunism.

I mean...everyone in America already knew who she was as Bruce Jenner. She was on the wheaties box, the whole thing. An Olympic champion, a role model to some in the 70's, etc. She had a ton to lose here, in the court of public opinion. This thread proves that. She has an entire world, or at least country, either applauding or condemning her. That's not easy, even after trying to stay in the shadows through ten years of Kardashian reality TV drama.

Admittedly I don't know much about the Kardashian show, but Bruce Jenner was trying his hand at reality TV for years.. I get that the show wasn't about him but I seriously doubt he was trying very hard to "stay in the shadows"

Everybody has haters, especially here. This thread proves nothing.

At the moment she's the absolute definition of the term "media darling", and the most famous name in the country. The money's just started to roll in. Without the change, she's just Bruce Jenner, celebrity divorcee / total has-been.

Does it matter? Not really. After all it's just an ESPY we're talking about here, but it's also an award named for Arthur Ashe, a great person with real courage.

 

[ConnSKINS26]

The willful ignorance in this thread is honestly pretty scary. Every time it feels like we've made social progress in this country, another issue arises and it becomes apparent that most people aren't actually becoming more open-minded, their opinions are just slowly being shamed into silence as they become the minority. Makes me think that people aren't actually becoming accepting, they're just shutting up as their opinions become unpopular. That's a shame, but it will happen on the transgender issue as well. This thread is going to be incredibly embarrassing for some in 5-10 years.

Let me give you a real scenario...Local high school has a so called transgender student....Same situation as Bruce...He /she by law gets to go into the girls bathroom and take his schlong out in front of the under aged girls and take a piss....If a boy were to do that he would be in jail as a sex offender...You ok with that Mister all inclusive.

These kinds of things just really don't matter. They work themselves out once people accept the new status quo. People would have asked the same question about gay dudes twenty years ago. "So what, they can just be on the wrestling team and check out other guys' junk in the locker room after practice, and that's okay?"

People tend to demonize that which the don't understand. You're doing it here. You're projecting a predator mindset onto an entire population of transgender individuals, just to create a ridiculous hypothetical.

Newsflash: a transgender girl or woman wishes she wasn't stuck with the penis she has (and which barely works at all due to hormone therapy), because she feels like a normal woman. She's not whipping it out in a girls bathroom and sexually harassing anyone with it.

You betray all kinds of ignorance with these posts. You think you're asking a legitimate question, but it just highlights your cluelessness. It's akin to someone saying "if we let people marry whoever they want, they'll start marrying their house cats or their first cousins!"

It's nonsensical and it shows a complete misunderstanding of the topic at hand.

Why? Because you say so? From my perspective, you're showing a pretty nonsensical and misunderstood take on opposing views. Not everyone feels the same as you. Just the way it is. That does not make their view nonsense and misunderstood. It's the elitist, superior attitude being shown that makes you all appear to me to be.....well....hateful.

Do you want to get serious?

Outside of understanding it so that I can argue it and hopefully change your mind, no, your opinion doesn't really matter to me or get my respect.

The same with anyone who is anti-gay. The same with anyone who is racist. The same with anyone who thinks women belong in the kitchen.

Do they have the right to believe whatever they want, as long as they don't harm anyone else? Yes.

That doesn't mean I respect it or think it's right. I think anyone who is racist, or sexist, or anti-gay is a backwards bigot, even if any of those beliefs are based in religion, even if it's their right to hold those beliefs.

OPM said it very well a couple pages ago: your right to have any opinion you want should be respected; the opinion itself is fair game.

 

[SIDA!]

If the world was cruel to him for being left handed, I would fight for him. It's not his fault he's left handed. He was born that way.And it's no one's "fault". There's nothing wrong with being born left handed than there is being born transgender. The world just has a bigotry towards one.

So as long as you are born a certain way, then society is just being bigoted if they don't accept it?

As long as its not hurting anyone else? Yes. Why not?

Why is this the litmus test?There are a lot of things that society limits or even makes illegal and those actions or activities do not hurt anyone else.

Give me an example of something society limits or discriminates against that you can be born with? I'll wait.

I wasn't limiting my statement to just things people are born with. I was saying that we as a society limit things people can do even if it doesn't hurt anybody else (be you born a certain way or choose to engage in a certain behavior).As far as being born a certain way...to my knowledge it hasn't been proven scientifically that people are born gay. But assuming for a second that people can be born gay, why is it a logical leap to think people can't be born or wired to love more than one person and engage in polyamorous unions? Those are discriminated against?

It is now widely believed that alcoholism and addiction in general are things that you are born with, along with "fat genes", etc. We limit some of these behaviors and/or shame these behaviors.

Maybe those groups needs advocates as well, and maybe in the future things will change for them as well. I don't claim to have all the answers. I knew a girl in college in a polyamorous relationship. Should she and her partners receive the same protections and benefits of marriage? I don't know the logistics of that, so I can't really say. It's not really related, though I appreciate you bringing up some legitimate points. It's food for thought.I just fail to see how most of them relate to the transgender issue. And it definitely doesn't relate to the things I think you're alluding to in terms of society limiting people (drugs, etc.)

I just don't really get this mindset: well, we discriminate against other groups with equally legitimate claims to equality, so why should anything change for THIS group? One thing at a time, man. Life isn't fair, women and African Americans didn't get the vote at the same time. It takes time for society to change.

So other groups may very well deserve the same treatment we're arguing the transgender population deserves...but that's no reason to argue against transgenders.

CONN

I tried to like your post but am out of likes.

I want to give you a as I really appreciate your response and the tone and will leave you with the last word. I appreciate the dialogue.

On that note, happy Friday and weekend to you all.

 

[T J]

They have no idea what my view is and they never will. That's why your message to me is BS. If they're transgender, either by choice or genetics, go for it - have fun. everyone deserves a happy life, but what exactly do you want or expect people to do? Seriously. All of a sudden like it? I'm not sure what you're after.

There's that "hate" word again. You people think everything centers around hate. Newsflash.... IT DOESN'T. I don't hate Jenner. I don't hate transgendered people. I think it's abnormal and I'm not a fan - AT ALL - but I don't outwardly put forth my feeling that it's abnormal (save for open discussions such as this). Whatever they want to do is up to them. I don't have to like it, but I certainly understand they have that choice. I choose to think Jenner is a freak, but I don't hate him for it. There is a huge difference that is just being glossed right over. Talk about intolerance. It's almost like reverse intolerance on this board. Ridiculous.I'm willing to use what ever word you want to use to describe your feelings... as long as the word reflects the negativity that obviously exists when you use words like "freak", as these are the words this kids hear over and over and over again that leads to their suicidal tendencies.

 

[Pots]

His takeaway was about as reasonable as yours. You saw a post expressing concern about the large number of transgender kids who commit suicide (it is probably is thousands, btw- 41% of transgenders have attempted suicide) and decided that you should criticize him for not focusing on bullying instead of transgender issues, even though you (1) have no idea if he's also concerned with/working on bullying; and (2) ignored the obvious fact that we can likely reduce the transgender suicide attempts simply by being more tolerant and encouraging of transgenders and there's no corresponding "quick fix" to bullying.

Link to the thousands?

Study estimating the US transgender population at 700,000

41% of transgenders attempt suicide

Obviously there's some difficulty around the margins with that data- those are merely attempts, not deaths, and it's possible that some of them weren't "genuine" attempts to end one's life. And then you'd have to adjust downward based on what you considered "kids" or "teens" or whatever, although saving adult lives is also pretty important. Still, it's hard to imagine that the number of suicides isn't in the thousands, considering that around 300,000 transgenders in the United States alone have attempted suicide is those studies are accurate.

Yes, attempt and commit are two different things.

If you prefer another tack, here's a post linking a study estimated the global transgender suicide rate at 800/100,000 (normal rate is13/100,000 here and 16/100,000 globally). Again, I can't give you an exact statistic because I don't know that it's been compiled accurately but some basic math will lead you to the inevitable conclusion that the number of transgender suicide deaths is in the four digits at least.

People should stop posting links to articles that cite 'statistics' and instead read the study themselves FIRST before attempting to use any numbers to back up their point. Articles have agendas, even some studies have agendas, and it's the job of the reader to discern what information is valid and what information is cherry picked and misrepresentative.

"One clinical study reported a disproportionate number of suicide deaths among Dutch transsexual women and men receiving hormone therapy, compared to the general population (van Kesteren et al., 1997). Another international review of studies that followed over 2,000 persons in 13 countries who had undergone gender reassignment surgery identified 16 possible suicide deaths (Pfäfflin & Junge, 1998). If confirmed as actual suicides, these figures would translate to an alarmingly high rate of 800 suicides for every 100,000 post-surgery transsexuals. By contrast, the current suicide rate for the overall U.S. population is 11.5 suicides per 100,000 people. It is not clear whether this very high suicide rate still exists among transexuals."

So it was a 1998 study identified 16 possible suicide deaths out of 2000 people they tracked in 13 countries. Now there's no doubt that transgenders face hardships from their peers (especially in countries outside the US) and some unfortunately turn to suicide possibly because of it, but don't inflate the perception of the problem just because it's the flavor of the year and an article is trying to get clicks.

I appreciate your concern for accuracy. But I stated in the post (the bolded) that there was no accurate compilation so I was relying on a couple different things to draw what I considered to be a pretty much inevitable conclusion about a likely baseline in the four digits. This was the second post on the subject, after posting about the 41% attempted suicide statistic (which I also pointed out would be much higher than the death toll) and estimates of the total trans population in the US.

I used all of that together to say that it leads to the conclusion that the number is almost certainly higher than 999. I think these numbers and studies, taken together, make that a reasonable conclusion. Especially considering the lack of evidence to the contrary. i.e. that the transgender suicide rate is low or is about the same as the rate among the overall population.

While not transgender-specific, there have actually been several articles cited in that same study that show same-sex orientations (which included transgenders in their definition) are not disproportionately represented among suicide victims.

"Several studies using this method have been published, focusing on young adult male suicides in San Diego (Rich, Fowler, Young, & Blenkush, 1986) and adolescent suicides in the New York metropolitan area (Shaffer, Fisher, Hicks, Parides, & Gould, 1995) and the province of Quebec (Renaud, Berlim, Begolli, McGirr, & Turecki, 2010). Each of these studies has concluded that same-sex sexual orientation is not disproportionately represented among suicide victims."

The key difference when it comes to these studies in comparing proportions is what metric is used. If you want the proportion to be high, say 3% of people are gay/lesbian/transgender. If you want it to be lower, say it's 11% or higher. Since the % of the population that is gay/transgender is unknown, the margin for error is very high with that factor alone. Now take in consideration the sample size and the fact that many of the cases used to support an argument/statistic are unconfirmed (as pointed out in the study itself) and you're in some real muddy water.

 

[T J]

The willful ignorance in this thread is honestly pretty scary. Every time it feels like we've made social progress in this country, another issue arises and it becomes apparent that most people aren't actually becoming more open-minded, their opinions are just slowly being shamed into silence as they become the minority. Makes me think that people aren't actually becoming accepting, they're just shutting up as their opinions become unpopular. That's a shame, but it will happen on the transgender issue as well. This thread is going to be incredibly embarrassing for some in 5-10 years.

Let me give you a real scenario...Local high school has a so called transgender student....Same situation as Bruce...He /she by law gets to go into the girls bathroom and take his schlong out in front of the under aged girls and take a piss....If a boy were to do that he would be in jail as a sex offender...You ok with that Mister all inclusive.

These kinds of things just really don't matter. They work themselves out once people accept the new status quo. People would have asked the same question about gay dudes twenty years ago. "So what, they can just be on the wrestling team and check out other guys' junk in the locker room after practice, and that's okay?"

People tend to demonize that which the don't understand. You're doing it here. You're projecting a predator mindset onto an entire population of transgender individuals, just to create a ridiculous hypothetical.

Newsflash: a transgender girl or woman wishes she wasn't stuck with the penis she has (and which barely works at all due to hormone therapy), because she feels like a normal woman. She's not whipping it out in a girls bathroom and sexually harassing anyone with it.

You betray all kinds of ignorance with these posts. You think you're asking a legitimate question, but it just highlights your cluelessness. It's akin to someone saying "if we let people marry whoever they want, they'll start marrying their house cats or their first cousins!"

It's nonsensical and it shows a complete misunderstanding of the topic at hand.

Why? Because you say so? From my perspective, you're showing a pretty nonsensical and misunderstood take on opposing views. Not everyone feels the same as you. Just the way it is. That does not make their view nonsense and misunderstood. It's the elitist, superior attitude being shown that makes you all appear to me to be.....well....hateful.

Do you want to get serious?

Outside of understanding it so that I can argue it and hopefully change your mind, no, your opinion doesn't really matter to me or get my respect.

.

Nor yours mine. People that shout down opposing views by insulting and minimizing them come across as pompous asses to me.

 

[T J]

They have no idea what my view is and they never will. That's why your message to me is BS. If they're transgender, either by choice or genetics, go for it - have fun. everyone deserves a happy life, but what exactly do you want or expect people to do? Seriously. All of a sudden like it? I'm not sure what you're after.

There's that "hate" word again. You people think everything centers around hate. Newsflash.... IT DOESN'T. I don't hate Jenner. I don't hate transgendered people. I think it's abnormal and I'm not a fan - AT ALL - but I don't outwardly put forth my feeling that it's abnormal (save for open discussions such as this). Whatever they want to do is up to them. I don't have to like it, but I certainly understand they have that choice. I choose to think Jenner is a freak, but I don't hate him for it. There is a huge difference that is just being glossed right over. Talk about intolerance. It's almost like reverse intolerance on this board. Ridiculous.I'm willing to use what ever word you want to use to describe your feelings... as long as the word reflects the negativity that obviously exists when you use words like "freak", as these are the words this kids hear over and over and over again that leads to their suicidal tendencies.

Sorry - not sure what happened there.....

 

[Limp Ditka]

They have no idea what my view is and they never will. That's why your message to me is BS. If they're transgender, either by choice or genetics, go for it - have fun. everyone deserves a happy life, but what exactly do you want or expect people to do? Seriously. All of a sudden like it? I'm not sure what you're after.

There's that "hate" word again. You people think everything centers around hate. Newsflash.... IT DOESN'T. I don't hate Jenner. I don't hate transgendered people. I think it's abnormal and I'm not a fan - AT ALL - but I don't outwardly put forth my feeling that it's abnormal (save for open discussions such as this). Whatever they want to do is up to them. I don't have to like it, but I certainly understand they have that choice. I choose to think Jenner is a freak, but I don't hate him for it. There is a huge difference that is just being glossed right over. Talk about intolerance. It's almost like reverse intolerance on this board. Ridiculous.

I'm willing to use what ever word you want to use to describe your feelings... as long as the word reflects the negativity that obviously exists when you use words like "freak", as these are the words this kids hear over and over and over again that leads to their suicidal tendencies.

Sorry - not sure what happened there.....

You lost your cool....again.

 

[TobiasFunke]

They have no idea what my view is and they never will. That's why your message to me is BS. If they're transgender, either by choice or genetics, go for it - have fun. everyone deserves a happy life, but what exactly do you want or expect people to do? Seriously. All of a sudden like it? I'm not sure what you're after.

There's that "hate" word again. You people think everything centers around hate. Newsflash.... IT DOESN'T. I don't hate Jenner. I don't hate transgendered people. I think it's abnormal and I'm not a fan - AT ALL - but I don't outwardly put forth my feeling that it's abnormal (save for open discussions such as this). Whatever they want to do is up to them. I don't have to like it, but I certainly understand they have that choice. I choose to think Jenner is a freak, but I don't hate him for it. There is a huge difference that is just being glossed right over. Talk about intolerance. It's almost like reverse intolerance on this board. Ridiculous.

For what it's worth, even though I totally disagree with your perspective, and I think it's genuinely harmful, and I hope fewer and fewer people share it as time goes on, I think you've been a stand-up guy in this thread. You've owned your position and been clear and consistent, I don't remember you making any childish jokes about transgender people, you've been pretty patient with people who've been calling you out for it, and you've stayed away from insulting other posters. Kudos.

 

[ConnSKINS26]

The willful ignorance in this thread is honestly pretty scary. Every time it feels like we've made social progress in this country, another issue arises and it becomes apparent that most people aren't actually becoming more open-minded, their opinions are just slowly being shamed into silence as they become the minority. Makes me think that people aren't actually becoming accepting, they're just shutting up as their opinions become unpopular. That's a shame, but it will happen on the transgender issue as well. This thread is going to be incredibly embarrassing for some in 5-10 years.

Let me give you a real scenario...Local high school has a so called transgender student....Same situation as Bruce...He /she by law gets to go into the girls bathroom and take his schlong out in front of the under aged girls and take a piss....If a boy were to do that he would be in jail as a sex offender...You ok with that Mister all inclusive.

These kinds of things just really don't matter. They work themselves out once people accept the new status quo. People would have asked the same question about gay dudes twenty years ago. "So what, they can just be on the wrestling team and check out other guys' junk in the locker room after practice, and that's okay?"

People tend to demonize that which the don't understand. You're doing it here. You're projecting a predator mindset onto an entire population of transgender individuals, just to create a ridiculous hypothetical.

Newsflash: a transgender girl or woman wishes she wasn't stuck with the penis she has (and which barely works at all due to hormone therapy), because she feels like a normal woman. She's not whipping it out in a girls bathroom and sexually harassing anyone with it.

You betray all kinds of ignorance with these posts. You think you're asking a legitimate question, but it just highlights your cluelessness. It's akin to someone saying "if we let people marry whoever they want, they'll start marrying their house cats or their first cousins!"

It's nonsensical and it shows a complete misunderstanding of the topic at hand.

Why? Because you say so? From my perspective, you're showing a pretty nonsensical and misunderstood take on opposing views. Not everyone feels the same as you. Just the way it is. That does not make their view nonsense and misunderstood. It's the elitist, superior attitude being shown that makes you all appear to me to be.....well....hateful.

Do you want to get serious?

Outside of understanding it so that I can argue it and hopefully change your mind, no, your opinion doesn't really matter to me or get my respect.

.

Nor yours mine. People that shout down opposing views by insulting and minimizing them come across as pompous asses to me.

I haven't done that, until maybe this last post. I've got about a dozen posts in this thread detailing my views and why I hold them, and why I disagree with yours.

The only argument you have is "they're different and I don't understand them, so it's weird and freaky". You know how that viewpoint is not considered okay about gays? Why should it be different here?

 

[T J]

They have no idea what my view is and they never will. That's why your message to me is BS. If they're transgender, either by choice or genetics, go for it - have fun. everyone deserves a happy life, but what exactly do you want or expect people to do? Seriously. All of a sudden like it? I'm not sure what you're after.

There's that "hate" word again. You people think everything centers around hate. Newsflash.... IT DOESN'T. I don't hate Jenner. I don't hate transgendered people. I think it's abnormal and I'm not a fan - AT ALL - but I don't outwardly put forth my feeling that it's abnormal (save for open discussions such as this). Whatever they want to do is up to them. I don't have to like it, but I certainly understand they have that choice. I choose to think Jenner is a freak, but I don't hate him for it. There is a huge difference that is just being glossed right over. Talk about intolerance. It's almost like reverse intolerance on this board. Ridiculous.

For what it's worth, even though I totally disagree with your perspective, and I think it's genuinely harmful, and I hope fewer and fewer people share it as time goes on, I think you've been a stand-up guy in this thread. You've owned your position and been clear and consistent, I don't remember you making any childish jokes about transgender people, you've been pretty patient with people who've been calling you out for it, and you've stayed away from insulting other posters. Kudos.

Thanks and likewise. I don't agree that my take is harmful, but I certainly respect your right to say that. Group hug.

 

[squistion]

Everybody who is against this and thinks it's just a money stunt, please remember one thing:

Eminence is on your side.

I don't think it a money stunt. Shows how credible your word is.

He wasn't that far off.

The entire Kadashian family are nutjobs. This is a publicity stunt.

 

[Politician Spock]

They have no idea what my view is and they never will.

Except for the ones reading your posts.

That's why your message to me is BS.

You are throwing the "freak" word out. My message to you is warranted.

If they're transgender, either by choice or genetics, go for it - have fun. everyone deserves a happy life, but what exactly do you want or expect people to do? Seriously. All of a sudden like it? I'm not sure what you're after.

The next time you feel compelled to call a transgender a "freak", I want you to shut the #### up!!!

 

[T J]

The willful ignorance in this thread is honestly pretty scary. Every time it feels like we've made social progress in this country, another issue arises and it becomes apparent that most people aren't actually becoming more open-minded, their opinions are just slowly being shamed into silence as they become the minority. Makes me think that people aren't actually becoming accepting, they're just shutting up as their opinions become unpopular. That's a shame, but it will happen on the transgender issue as well. This thread is going to be incredibly embarrassing for some in 5-10 years.

Let me give you a real scenario...Local high school has a so called transgender student....Same situation as Bruce...He /she by law gets to go into the girls bathroom and take his schlong out in front of the under aged girls and take a piss....If a boy were to do that he would be in jail as a sex offender...You ok with that Mister all inclusive.

These kinds of things just really don't matter. They work themselves out once people accept the new status quo. People would have asked the same question about gay dudes twenty years ago. "So what, they can just be on the wrestling team and check out other guys' junk in the locker room after practice, and that's okay?"

People tend to demonize that which the don't understand. You're doing it here. You're projecting a predator mindset onto an entire population of transgender individuals, just to create a ridiculous hypothetical.

Newsflash: a transgender girl or woman wishes she wasn't stuck with the penis she has (and which barely works at all due to hormone therapy), because she feels like a normal woman. She's not whipping it out in a girls bathroom and sexually harassing anyone with it.

You betray all kinds of ignorance with these posts. You think you're asking a legitimate question, but it just highlights your cluelessness. It's akin to someone saying "if we let people marry whoever they want, they'll start marrying their house cats or their first cousins!"

It's nonsensical and it shows a complete misunderstanding of the topic at hand.

Why? Because you say so? From my perspective, you're showing a pretty nonsensical and misunderstood take on opposing views. Not everyone feels the same as you. Just the way it is. That does not make their view nonsense and misunderstood. It's the elitist, superior attitude being shown that makes you all appear to me to be.....well....hateful.

Do you want to get serious?

Outside of understanding it so that I can argue it and hopefully change your mind, no, your opinion doesn't really matter to me or get my respect.

.

Nor yours mine. People that shout down opposing views by insulting and minimizing them come across as pompous asses to me.

I haven't done that, until maybe this last post. I've got about a dozen posts in this thread detailing my views and why I hold them, and why I disagree with yours.

The only argument you have is "they're different and I don't understand them, so it's weird and freaky". You know how that viewpoint is not considered okay about gays? Why should it be different here?

Here's the thing - I don't think I should have to defend my position but here goes... everyone has a line and there's no real dictionary that defines where one's is. For whatever reason, this crosses mine. Maybe it's my upbringing in a conservative midwestern state - could be that, but transgender is indeed abnormal as hell to me and the only time I've used the word "freak", I'm pretty sure, was specifcally as regards Jenner. Weird just looking at him.

 

[T J]

They have no idea what my view is and they never will.

Except for the ones reading your posts.

That's why your message to me is BS.

You are throwing the "freak" word out. My message to you is warranted.

If they're transgender, either by choice or genetics, go for it - have fun. everyone deserves a happy life, but what exactly do you want or expect people to do? Seriously. All of a sudden like it? I'm not sure what you're after.

The next time you feel compelled to call a transgender a "freak", I want you to shut the #### up!!!

I'm sure there are tons reading this.

To the last point... duly noted. I feel the way I feel. "Abnormal" a better word for you?

 

[Politician Spock]

They have no idea what my view is and they never will.

Except for the ones reading your posts.

That's why your message to me is BS.

You are throwing the "freak" word out. My message to you is warranted.

If they're transgender, either by choice or genetics, go for it - have fun. everyone deserves a happy life, but what exactly do you want or expect people to do? Seriously. All of a sudden like it? I'm not sure what you're after.

The next time you feel compelled to call a transgender a "freak", I want you to shut the #### up!!!

I'm sure there are tons reading this. To the last point... duly noted. I feel the way I feel. "Abnormal" a better word for you?

MUCH BETTER!!!!!

 

[Scoresman]

Mostly serious question...

Am I allowed to be accepting and open minded on the transgender issue but still think Caitlyn Jenner is a tremendous piece of #### and want nothing to do with ever seeing or hearing from her again?

Seems like a lot of both sides on the issue are confusing a few of the posters here with outcry over Jenner/espys as being bigoted or resistance to the transgender movement in this country.

Absolutely. She doesn't strike me as the greatest and most noble human on earth either.

But I really don't know much about her, so I'm confused as to where these passionately negative feelings about her come from. Is it because she's a Kardashian by marriage? As someone else said, she never really seemed interested in drumming up fake drama for the reality show, or even in participating is the show. She just kind of stayed in the background until the divorce and the decision to go public with her transition. And sure, now she's making a reality TV show about that transition, but lots of celebrities participate in reality TV, that doesn't seem like a big deal in this day and age. Is it because of something else she's done or said recently? The accident sure seems worthy of condemnation, but it's quite a leap from that to saying someone is "a tremendous piece of #### and want nothing to do with ever seeing or hearing from her again." Is it because people didn't like Bruce Jenner the golden boy back in the 70s? I don't really remember much about that.

I loved Bruce Jenner the Olympian, I thought everyone did, but I was just a kid too

I don't think Caitlyn Jenner had much to lose by doing this at this point in time, but there was something to gain as we can see. I do appreciate the point Spock and Tim have made as well, about how having a famous face behind this issue can't be a bad thing. But when it comes down to it I don't see a whole lot of true COURAGE here, so much as opportunism.

I mean...everyone in America already knew who she was as Bruce Jenner. She was on the wheaties box, the whole thing. An Olympic champion, a role model to some in the 70's, etc. She had a ton to lose here, in the court of public opinion. This thread proves that. She has an entire world, or at least country, either applauding or condemning her. That's not easy, even after trying to stay in the shadows through ten years of Kardashian reality TV drama.

Admittedly I don't know much about the Kardashian show, but Bruce Jenner was trying his hand at reality TV for years.. I get that the show wasn't about him but I seriously doubt he was trying very hard to "stay in the shadows"

Everybody has haters, especially here. This thread proves nothing.

At the moment she's the absolute definition of the term "media darling", and the most famous name in the country. The money's just started to roll in. Without the change, she's just Bruce Jenner, celebrity divorcee / total has-been.

Does it matter? Not really. After all it's just an ESPY we're talking about here, but it's also an award named for Arthur Ashe, a great person with real courage.

I've watched the show and Caitlyn is nowhere near the level of attention whoring that the Kardashian women of the show are. He's not exactly rejecting the limelight either, but there's an in-between and he's pretty much right there.

 

[ConnSKINS26]

The willful ignorance in this thread is honestly pretty scary. Every time it feels like we've made social progress in this country, another issue arises and it becomes apparent that most people aren't actually becoming more open-minded, their opinions are just slowly being shamed into silence as they become the minority. Makes me think that people aren't actually becoming accepting, they're just shutting up as their opinions become unpopular. That's a shame, but it will happen on the transgender issue as well. This thread is going to be incredibly embarrassing for some in 5-10 years.

Let me give you a real scenario...Local high school has a so called transgender student....Same situation as Bruce...He /she by law gets to go into the girls bathroom and take his schlong out in front of the under aged girls and take a piss....If a boy were to do that he would be in jail as a sex offender...You ok with that Mister all inclusive.

These kinds of things just really don't matter. They work themselves out once people accept the new status quo. People would have asked the same question about gay dudes twenty years ago. "So what, they can just be on the wrestling team and check out other guys' junk in the locker room after practice, and that's okay?"People tend to demonize that which the don't understand. You're doing it here. You're projecting a predator mindset onto an entire population of transgender individuals, just to create a ridiculous hypothetical.

Newsflash: a transgender girl or woman wishes she wasn't stuck with the penis she has (and which barely works at all due to hormone therapy), because she feels like a normal woman. She's not whipping it out in a girls bathroom and sexually harassing anyone with it.

You betray all kinds of ignorance with these posts. You think you're asking a legitimate question, but it just highlights your cluelessness. It's akin to someone saying "if we let people marry whoever they want, they'll start marrying their house cats or their first cousins!"

It's nonsensical and it shows a complete misunderstanding of the topic at hand.

Why? Because you say so? From my perspective, you're showing a pretty nonsensical and misunderstood take on opposing views. Not everyone feels the same as you. Just the way it is. That does not make their view nonsense and misunderstood. It's the elitist, superior attitude being shown that makes you all appear to me to be.....well....hateful.

Do you want to get serious?Outside of understanding it so that I can argue it and hopefully change your mind, no, your opinion doesn't really matter to me or get my respect.

.

Nor yours mine. People that shout down opposing views by insulting and minimizing them come across as pompous asses to me.

I haven't done that, until maybe this last post. I've got about a dozen posts in this thread detailing my views and why I hold them, and why I disagree with yours.The only argument you have is "they're different and I don't understand them, so it's weird and freaky". You know how that viewpoint is not considered okay about gays? Why should it be different here?

Here's the thing - I don't think I should have to defend my position but here goes... everyone has a line and there's no real dictionary that defines where one's is. For whatever reason, this crosses mine. Maybe it's my upbringing in a conservative midwestern state - could be that, but transgender is indeed abnormal as hell to me and the only time I've used the word "freak", I'm pretty sure, was specifcally as regards Jenner. Weird just looking at him.

I think where and how someone grew up is almost always a factor. That's why I'm glad that the majority of today's children are growing up in a more accepting world, while those who are not accepting have their opinions slowly pushed out of the public space as their beliefs become unpopular to express.You wouldn't feel compassion if a friend started transitioning? You could have people in your life, right now, who have felt this conflict within them their entire lives and didn't have the courage to face it, admit it, or do anything about it. If your best friend came to you and said he had always felt deep down like a woman, you'd think he was a freak? He wouldn't have your support or understanding?

 

[T J]

They have no idea what my view is and they never will.

Except for the ones reading your posts.

That's why your message to me is BS.

You are throwing the "freak" word out. My message to you is warranted.

If they're transgender, either by choice or genetics, go for it - have fun. everyone deserves a happy life, but what exactly do you want or expect people to do? Seriously. All of a sudden like it? I'm not sure what you're after.

The next time you feel compelled to call a transgender a "freak", I want you to shut the #### up!!!

I'm sure there are tons reading this. To the last point... duly noted. I feel the way I feel. "Abnormal" a better word for you?

MUCH BETTER!!!!!

progress....baby steps.....

 

[Politician Spock]

They have no idea what my view is and they never will.

Except for the ones reading your posts.

That's why your message to me is BS.

You are throwing the "freak" word out. My message to you is warranted.

If they're transgender, either by choice or genetics, go for it - have fun. everyone deserves a happy life, but what exactly do you want or expect people to do? Seriously. All of a sudden like it? I'm not sure what you're after.

The next time you feel compelled to call a transgender a "freak", I want you to shut the #### up!!!

I'm sure there are tons reading this. To the last point... duly noted. I feel the way I feel. "Abnormal" a better word for you?

MUCH BETTER!!!!!

progress....baby steps.....

 

[tonydead]

The willful ignorance in this thread is honestly pretty scary. Every time it feels like we've made social progress in this country, another issue arises and it becomes apparent that most people aren't actually becoming more open-minded, their opinions are just slowly being shamed into silence as they become the minority. Makes me think that people aren't actually becoming accepting, they're just shutting up as their opinions become unpopular. That's a shame, but it will happen on the transgender issue as well. This thread is going to be incredibly embarrassing for some in 5-10 years.

Let me give you a real scenario...Local high school has a so called transgender student....Same situation as Bruce...He /she by law gets to go into the girls bathroom and take his schlong out in front of the under aged girls and take a piss....If a boy were to do that he would be in jail as a sex offender...You ok with that Mister all inclusive.

What law are you taking about? Has this transgender student had a hearing to officially have his/her gender changed?

It's just stupid to have discussions on the "what if's" about what bathroom they use or what prison they get to go to. Unless someone can show me otherwise, I believe all that is just a part of the official record and it involves a judges decision with several doctors involved. Transgender or not I think you are supposed to use the bathroom that matches your driver's licence.

 

[Good Posting Judge]

I still can't believe the ESPY's had a gigantic confederate flag as a backdrop.

 

[T J]

The willful ignorance in this thread is honestly pretty scary. Every time it feels like we've made social progress in this country, another issue arises and it becomes apparent that most people aren't actually becoming more open-minded, their opinions are just slowly being shamed into silence as they become the minority. Makes me think that people aren't actually becoming accepting, they're just shutting up as their opinions become unpopular. That's a shame, but it will happen on the transgender issue as well. This thread is going to be incredibly embarrassing for some in 5-10 years.

Let me give you a real scenario...Local high school has a so called transgender student....Same situation as Bruce...He /she by law gets to go into the girls bathroom and take his schlong out in front of the under aged girls and take a piss....If a boy were to do that he would be in jail as a sex offender...You ok with that Mister all inclusive.

These kinds of things just really don't matter. They work themselves out once people accept the new status quo. People would have asked the same question about gay dudes twenty years ago. "So what, they can just be on the wrestling team and check out other guys' junk in the locker room after practice, and that's okay?"People tend to demonize that which the don't understand. You're doing it here. You're projecting a predator mindset onto an entire population of transgender individuals, just to create a ridiculous hypothetical.

Newsflash: a transgender girl or woman wishes she wasn't stuck with the penis she has (and which barely works at all due to hormone therapy), because she feels like a normal woman. She's not whipping it out in a girls bathroom and sexually harassing anyone with it.

You betray all kinds of ignorance with these posts. You think you're asking a legitimate question, but it just highlights your cluelessness. It's akin to someone saying "if we let people marry whoever they want, they'll start marrying their house cats or their first cousins!"

It's nonsensical and it shows a complete misunderstanding of the topic at hand.

Why? Because you say so? From my perspective, you're showing a pretty nonsensical and misunderstood take on opposing views. Not everyone feels the same as you. Just the way it is. That does not make their view nonsense and misunderstood. It's the elitist, superior attitude being shown that makes you all appear to me to be.....well....hateful.

Do you want to get serious?Outside of understanding it so that I can argue it and hopefully change your mind, no, your opinion doesn't really matter to me or get my respect.

.

Nor yours mine. People that shout down opposing views by insulting and minimizing them come across as pompous asses to me.

I haven't done that, until maybe this last post. I've got about a dozen posts in this thread detailing my views and why I hold them, and why I disagree with yours.The only argument you have is "they're different and I don't understand them, so it's weird and freaky". You know how that viewpoint is not considered okay about gays? Why should it be different here?

Here's the thing - I don't think I should have to defend my position but here goes... everyone has a line and there's no real dictionary that defines where one's is. For whatever reason, this crosses mine. Maybe it's my upbringing in a conservative midwestern state - could be that, but transgender is indeed abnormal as hell to me and the only time I've used the word "freak", I'm pretty sure, was specifcally as regards Jenner. Weird just looking at him.

I think where and how someone grew up is almost always a factor. That's why I'm glad that the majority of today's children are growing up in a more accepting world, while those who are not accepting have their opinions slowly pushed out of the public space as their beliefs become unpopular to express.

You wouldn't feel compassion if a friend started transitioning? You could have people in your life, right now, who have felt this conflict within them their entire lives and didn't have the courage to face it, admit it, or do anything about it. If your best friend came to you and said he had always felt deep down like a woman, you'd think he was a freak? He wouldn't have your support or understanding?

My understanding maybe, my support, probably not. But the real reality is that I gravitate to people that share my interests and belief systems so I think I'd pick up on it much earlier and probably not be their friend to begin with. And to be fair, there are differing levels of friends. There are friends/acquaintances, there are good friends, and there are best friends. My level of understanding and support would likely differ depending upon which category they fell in. I'm guessing that person would not want to be my friend anymore anyway as they would themselves gravitate to people that were indeed more accepting.

 

[ConnSKINS26]

The willful ignorance in this thread is honestly pretty scary. Every time it feels like we've made social progress in this country, another issue arises and it becomes apparent that most people aren't actually becoming more open-minded, their opinions are just slowly being shamed into silence as they become the minority. Makes me think that people aren't actually becoming accepting, they're just shutting up as their opinions become unpopular. That's a shame, but it will happen on the transgender issue as well. This thread is going to be incredibly embarrassing for some in 5-10 years.

Let me give you a real scenario...Local high school has a so called transgender student....Same situation as Bruce...He /she by law gets to go into the girls bathroom and take his schlong out in front of the under aged girls and take a piss....If a boy were to do that he would be in jail as a sex offender...You ok with that Mister all inclusive.

These kinds of things just really don't matter. They work themselves out once people accept the new status quo. People would have asked the same question about gay dudes twenty years ago. "So what, they can just be on the wrestling team and check out other guys' junk in the locker room after practice, and that's okay?"People tend to demonize that which the don't understand. You're doing it here. You're projecting a predator mindset onto an entire population of transgender individuals, just to create a ridiculous hypothetical.

Newsflash: a transgender girl or woman wishes she wasn't stuck with the penis she has (and which barely works at all due to hormone therapy), because she feels like a normal woman. She's not whipping it out in a girls bathroom and sexually harassing anyone with it.

You betray all kinds of ignorance with these posts. You think you're asking a legitimate question, but it just highlights your cluelessness. It's akin to someone saying "if we let people marry whoever they want, they'll start marrying their house cats or their first cousins!"

It's nonsensical and it shows a complete misunderstanding of the topic at hand.

Why? Because you say so? From my perspective, you're showing a pretty nonsensical and misunderstood take on opposing views. Not everyone feels the same as you. Just the way it is. That does not make their view nonsense and misunderstood. It's the elitist, superior attitude being shown that makes you all appear to me to be.....well....hateful.

Do you want to get serious?Outside of understanding it so that I can argue it and hopefully change your mind, no, your opinion doesn't really matter to me or get my respect.

.

Nor yours mine. People that shout down opposing views by insulting and minimizing them come across as pompous asses to me.

I haven't done that, until maybe this last post. I've got about a dozen posts in this thread detailing my views and why I hold them, and why I disagree with yours.The only argument you have is "they're different and I don't understand them, so it's weird and freaky". You know how that viewpoint is not considered okay about gays? Why should it be different here?

Here's the thing - I don't think I should have to defend my position but here goes... everyone has a line and there's no real dictionary that defines where one's is. For whatever reason, this crosses mine. Maybe it's my upbringing in a conservative midwestern state - could be that, but transgender is indeed abnormal as hell to me and the only time I've used the word "freak", I'm pretty sure, was specifcally as regards Jenner. Weird just looking at him.

I think where and how someone grew up is almost always a factor. That's why I'm glad that the majority of today's children are growing up in a more accepting world, while those who are not accepting have their opinions slowly pushed out of the public space as their beliefs become unpopular to express.You wouldn't feel compassion if a friend started transitioning? You could have people in your life, right now, who have felt this conflict within them their entire lives and didn't have the courage to face it, admit it, or do anything about it. If your best friend came to you and said he had always felt deep down like a woman, you'd think he was a freak? He wouldn't have your support or understanding?

My understanding maybe, my support, probably not. But the real reality is that I gravitate to people that share my interests and belief systems so I think I'd pick up on it much earlier and probably not be their friend to begin with. And to be fair, there are differing levels of friends. There are friends/acquaintances, there are good friends, and there are best friends. My level of understanding and support would likely differ depending upon which category they fell in. I'm guessing that person would not want to be my friend anymore anyway as they would themselves gravitate to people that were indeed more accepting.

There's a good chance you'd never know until told who in your life was struggling with their gender identity. People go their entire lives hiding it until they find the courage to transition and pursue inner peace. Like I said earlier in the thread: one of my best friends in college told us he was transitioning our senior year. We hung out every single day in every setting imaginable, never had a clue he had this inner struggle. He was a 6'3" tough, athletic, videogaming cheap beer chugger for almost four years, there were no clues other than his battles with depression.You would never know or avoid befriending a transgender person pre-transition, they're just regular people like you and me. Which is my entire point.

 

[CBusAlex]

They have no idea what my view is and they never will.

Except for the ones reading your posts.

I'm sure there are tons reading this.

This thread has like 8,000 views. Why would you assume no one is reading it?

 

[T J]

They have no idea what my view is and they never will.

Except for the ones reading your posts.

I'm sure there are tons reading this.

This thread has like 8,000 views. Why would you assume no one is reading it?

Why would I assume no transgendered people are reading this thread on a fantasy football website? Gee... I dunno.

 

[ConnSKINS26]

They have no idea what my view is and they never will.

Except for the ones reading your posts.

I'm sure there are tons reading this.

This thread has like 8,000 views. Why would you assume no one is reading it?

Why would I assume no transgendered people are reading this thread on a fantasy football website? Gee... I dunno.

And there's your problem. You don't see transgendered individuals as being the same as everyone else.

Why do you think a transgender individual wouldn't be here on FBG's? Why not? Do you think only straight men and lesbians frequent FF websites?

 

[ConnSKINS26]

Would be curious to see the response to my post that you deleted, T J. Got a quote notification but your response is gone.

 

[Limp Ditka]

They have no idea what my view is and they never will.

Except for the ones reading your posts.

I'm sure there are tons reading this.

This thread has like 8,000 views. Why would you assume no one is reading it?

Why would I assume no transgendered people are reading this thread on a fantasy football website? Gee... I dunno.

So as long as they aren't here to witness it, your hate towards them is OK.

Seems simple...... Minded

 

[Politician Spock]

They have no idea what my view is and they never will.

Except for the ones reading your posts.

I'm sure there are tons reading this.

This thread has like 8,000 views. Why would you assume no one is reading it?

Why would I assume no transgendered people are reading this thread on a fantasy football website? Gee... I dunno.

Seems like a horrible assumption to make.

 

[T J]

Would be curious to see the response to my post that you deleted, T J. Got a quote notification but your response is gone.

I know. I started to post it, but then I had to delete stuff because I got an error message that I quoted too many previous quotes so I had to delete some and when I did, my response got screwed up. Efforting.

 

[Limp Ditka]

They have no idea what my view is and they never will.

Except for the ones reading your posts.

I'm sure there are tons reading this.

This thread has like 8,000 views. Why would you assume no one is reading it?

Why would I assume no transgendered people are reading this thread on a fantasy football website? Gee... I dunno.

Seems like a horrible assumption to make.

He's a horrible person

 

[T J]

They have no idea what my view is and they never will.

Except for the ones reading your posts.

I'm sure there are tons reading this.

This thread has like 8,000 views. Why would you assume no one is reading it?

Why would I assume no transgendered people are reading this thread on a fantasy football website? Gee... I dunno.

Seems like a horrible assumption to make.

and yet one I'm comfortable making

 

[Politician Spock]

They have no idea what my view is and they never will.

Except for the ones reading your posts.

I'm sure there are tons reading this.

This thread has like 8,000 views. Why would you assume no one is reading it?

Why would I assume no transgendered people are reading this thread on a fantasy football website? Gee... I dunno.

Seems like a horrible assumption to make.

and yet one I'm comfortable making

Aaaaaaaand the baby step progress is gone.

 

[T J]

There's a good chance you'd never know until told who in your life was struggling with their gender identity. People go their entire lives hiding it until they find the courage to transition and pursue inner peace. Like I said earlier in the thread: one of my best friends in college told us he was transitioning our senior year. We hung out every single day in every setting imaginable, never had a clue he had this inner struggle. He was a 6'3" tough, athletic, videogaming cheap beer chugger for almost four years, there were no clues other than his battles with depression.You would never know or avoid befriending a transgender person pre-transition, they're just regular people like you and me. Which is my entire point.

I respectfully disagree I would never know. I think something would clue me in somewhere along the way, but that's a sidebar and not real relevant to my response, which is this:

If it were any level of friend, I'd be surprised, but it would absolutely affect the friendship. I'm pretty sure, via my actions moreso than my words, that I would say whatever, do your thing, maybe we can be facebook friends. No chance would I be there saying "I've got your back!". Now a trickier one would be if one of my three sons came at me with that. I would always love my son, but we would not be close I don't think.

 

[T J]

They have no idea what my view is and they never will.

Except for the ones reading your posts.

I'm sure there are tons reading this.

This thread has like 8,000 views. Why would you assume no one is reading it?

Why would I assume no transgendered people are reading this thread on a fantasy football website? Gee... I dunno.

Seems like a horrible assumption to make.

and yet one I'm comfortable making

Aaaaaaaand the baby step progress is gone.

What? You wanted two steps?

 

[Limp Ditka]

Oooooooooooooooooof

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

No one knows what it's like
To be the bad man
To be the sad man
Behind blue eyes

No one knows what it's like
To be hated
To be fated
To telling only lies

But my dreams
They aren't as empty
As my conscience seems to be

I have hours, only lonely
My love is vengeance
That's never free

No one knows what it's like
To feel these feelings
Like I do
And I blame you

No one bites back as hard
On their anger
None of my pain and woe
Can show through

 

[Scoresman]

there are too many people on this board whose name contains "Ditka"

 

[ConnSKINS26]

There's a good chance you'd never know until told who in your life was struggling with their gender identity. People go their entire lives hiding it until they find the courage to transition and pursue inner peace. Like I said earlier in the thread: one of my best friends in college told us he was transitioning our senior year. We hung out every single day in every setting imaginable, never had a clue he had this inner struggle. He was a 6'3" tough, athletic, videogaming cheap beer chugger for almost four years, there were no clues other than his battles with depression.You would never know or avoid befriending a transgender person pre-transition, they're just regular people like you and me. Which is my entire point.

I respectfully disagree I would never know. I think something would clue me in somewhere along the way, but that's a sidebar and not real relevant to my response, which is this:

If it were any level of friend, I'd be surprised, but it would absolutely affect the friendship. I'm pretty sure, via my actions moreso than my words, that I would say whatever, do your thing, maybe we can be facebook friends. No chance would I be there saying "I've got your back!". Now a trickier one would be if one of my three sons came at me with that. I would always love my son, but we would not be close I don't think.

I'm glad you can be honest with yourself about it, and it seems like you know yourself. But this response is sad. Very sad.

Maybe you'd surprise yourself. People adapt to their new reality when things like this happen and disrupt their world-view in a deeply personal way.