Godsbrother
Footballguy
First off, thank you for your service. If you don't mind me asking, when did you enlist?
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Every branch of the U.S. military is struggling to meet its 2022 recruiting goals (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter Max Power
- Start date
First off, thank you for your service. If you don't mind me asking, when did you enlist?
Stoneworker
Footballguy
Perhaps apathy is not precisely the right word. Aversion? My anecdotal observations are supplemented by the OP's article.
But one U.S. military official said bonuses can only help so much. “We can throw money at the problem all we want, but until we change how young people see us in uniform, we are going to struggle to get them to raise their right hands.
Max Power
Footballguy
This is pure spending money for an E-1 who is a glorified janitor.
a 2nd year E-3 is making about 28K (without having to pay ANY necessities) This is very good money for a 20 year old.
Stoneworker
Footballguy
Godsbrother
Footballguy
Wow you're nearly as old as I am! (graduated 1977) I only knew two kids in my class that went into the military.
Stoneworker
Footballguy
Lol. Yup. Time flies.
While the military was definitely not in vogue socially in the 70's due primarily to Vietnam fallout, there was still a "sense-of-duty" influence within families to override that in many cases. Which doesn't exist nearly as much today.
Among Americans surveyed by the Pentagon...only 13% had parents who had served in the military, down from approximately 40% in 1995. The military considers parents one of the biggest influencers for service.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
I have family that served in the Civil War, my grandfather served in WWI and my Dad in WWII. During the Vietnam war my brother got a college deferment and I missed registering for the draft by two years.
I am a little ashamed about not serving but there was no war at the time and I really never considered it. I do think if I had been coming out high school right after 9/11 I would have enlisted but talk is cheap.
I definitely respect those that do enlist out of a sense of duty.
dkp993
Footballguy
I’m lucky enough to have an ownership group for my company that understands the current economic pressures for employees (just 1 small example, we are giving company wide raises to all full time employees singularity due to increased gas prices and it’s our 4 such type increase in the past 12 months) and actually cares about the people who work here. My point being is that we are aggressive with our wage and have stayed out in front of the market. It’s still a massive struggle to find good people. The bolded in SW’s post is very real, and while I know he meant that for military service it’s still very true for the normal work environment too.
Stoneworker
Footballguy
Nah man. There's definitely nothing to be ashamed of and no judgment at all. Your family's collective contribution has been tremendous. Can't criticize freely made individual choices b/c otherwise what the heck are people even serving for?
And as easy as it is to rag on younger people, if there actually is a fading sense of duty/responsibility/service, then old folks need to own up their own failures to adequately pass down those values.
But clearly we collectively need to somehow make military service more attractive beyond just competitive pay or risk losing the all-volunteer tradition. And that would be a tragedy IMO.
The Z Machine
Footballguy
I think the changes in attitudes are real, but there is no mechanism to roll that back.
There is a mechanism to get more recruits by paying them more.
Stoneworker
Footballguy
Everyone has their price, I suppose.
But without at least some sense of duty, service and greater good to glue everything together, all you've got are a bunch of mercenaries and everything that comes with that.
So just be careful of unintended consequences of heading too far in a "pay as primary incentive" direction.
Snotbubbles
Footballguy
Who wants to earn their free college when the Government will just pay back your loans.
roadkill1292
Footballguy
Some of the demographers studying the real possibility of future population decline have speculated whether a "peace dividend" might be one of the results as militaries around the world deal with a smaller pool of candidates.
I don't know where I am yet on this whole issue, just want to point out that there are lots of moving parts that will have far ranging effects on defense and economies everywhere.
I don't know where I am yet on this whole issue, just want to point out that there are lots of moving parts that will have far ranging effects on defense and economies everywhere.
GordonGekko
Footballguy
The X Factor here is the proliferation of "private military organizations"
It's not really well known but Warren Buffett has a security detail that would make most people's head spin. ( Because it's much more than that) The "aw shucks" and wearing the same old brown suit and living in an aging plain house is just part of the narrative.
Some some ways, the Big Pharma Blueprint is being replicated.Use tax dollars to pay for the base investment then sweep up the cream of the crop later as ready made cannon fodder.
You are correct, it's a good choice for many who are adrift. That being said, war with China is inevitable and that has to be part of the equation. I don't see how career military today avoids the coming world war.
What will happen is "Trad Con" type communities are going to pop up. And create their own para military organizations. This is beyond the entire "militia" concept. We are talking self reliance operations on a much larger scale. Humans always move to survival methodologies that provide "cost certainty"
What I'm saying is the current US military is a practical option right now for many, but in the near future, it won't be the only option.
"Trad Con" is the new Rebel Alliance. Bizarrely seeking a nuclear family built on complimentary structures and roles will soon be seen as an act of defiance.
crackattack
Footballguy
Is it any surprise? This is the same generation or 2 who feel unsafe just simply seeing an American flag flying in someone's yard/house. Complete sissification of the younger generations.
Mister CIA
Footballguy
Desert_Power
Footballguy
roadkill1292
Footballguy
The theory is that with declining birth rates and an increase in the world's average age, resources will have to be redirected from large military forces to eldercare. There may not be enough people in the work force at large to keep the economy going and, as a result, even fewer available and inclined to enter the military.
One source is Empty Planet, by Darrell Bricker and John Ibbitson, a couple of Canadian demographers but I've seen the idea bounced around elsewhere as well. It's an interesting possibility but, hey, predicting the future always has its pitfalls.
Lack of eligible bodies does not seem to be our military's immediate problem, however.
MAC_32
Footballguy
Babsitters make more...only they work less, sleep in their own beds, and are at much less risk to die.
GordonGekko
Footballguy
The military is a lifeline for many without a ton of options.
When I was in high school ( this was stone age era...), there were several of my classmates who were told by their parents that, at 18 years of age, you are expected to get out for good.
For girls in that situation, they can get married. Let's get real here. A young good looking girl is never going to go hungry if she doesn't want to go hungry. Many can find a guy with a good living situation to date/mate/marry/whatever.
For young men though, the option tree can be limited. Especially for those who just didn't do well in school.
There are some people, going into the military meant the first pair of new shoes they ever had. I recognize that's unfathomable to some people, but there are really a lot of Americans in poverty out there. Especially in previous times in the our history.
The other factor is a bad home life. Some people just need to get out. And if they don't leave, it's like they are committing to staying in that kind of self inflicted prison forever. JD Vance is a good example of this.
What no one discusses much out loud is the currency of your looks/aesthetics. That transcends so many other social barriers. The better looking you are, the greater your opportunity base and your margin of error compared to a lot of other people. Good looking people can skirt past a lack of skill or even a lack of contacts/networks.
The other push/pull is ageism. There's a point in your working life where you are too entrenched and too old to practically shift in another direction. So a military career can be a worthy long term investment as long as the person understands that it is actually an investment.
As an end game, the final factor is many don't realize that a lot of pension system are going to collapse. The military career would obviously be one of the last to go. But nothing is safe anymore.
For some, the military is the last option if everything falls apart.
For many, the military is the only option as they've only survived thus far in an existence where everything has already fallen apart.
Sometimes I do wonder if most people here in the PSF truly understand what it means to live in poverty in America.
GordonGekko
Footballguy
Well Max, you've gotten feedback from others.
What changes in the military would you like to see to further improve recruitment and retention?
hagmania
Footballguy
22K is laughable in comparison to other hazard pay. You can go find a job in a dangerous manufacturing factory and make magnitudes more.
Edit: I should add that decades of warmongering has given the perception that joining the military is a shoe-in you'll face combat.
Edit: I should add that decades of warmongering has given the perception that joining the military is a shoe-in you'll face combat.
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BladeRunner
Footballguy
Spoken like a true civilian. What do you think the military is for? Sewing and Quilting?
If you don't join the military expecting at some point to be sent to a combat zone then it's your expectations that were faulty to begin with. Don't blame the military or anyone else.
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Max Power
Footballguy
How much do baby sitters make around you?!
What % of income is spent on housing, bills and food?
Max Power
Footballguy
It's a tough situation. One that has a lot of eyes on it right now. I think we need to get better as a country promoting American Pride.
Kids used to want to fight for America because they believed in this country. Right now everything in the mainstream comes off as negative. When we let the idea of America being the greatest country on earth full, we're going to see the fallout from that in the national service ranks.
Maybe we can throw more money at the problem, but I'm not sure how much that move the needle. I think shorter terms and picking location would be huge selling points.
It was also brought to my attention by a recruiting friend that the vaccine requirement is pushing a lot of kids away. The military always recruits better in red states and there are more covid vaccine hesitant families in those areas. Any kid who doesnt want to get the vaccine isnt joining the military right now. We need an honest reassessment of that situation.
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Max Power
Footballguy
Max Power
Footballguy
22k is without hazard pay. Members get hazard pay when they deploy to hazardous areas.
Also remember the 22k is starting pay on day 1. These aren't currently front line kids. These are the mail room, chow call, bathroom cleaners. As long as they are not useless they will be an E-3 or 4 within a couple years.
Fun fact as well, you can make rank before joining the military with ROTC and/or referral bonuses.
If someone doesn't want to see combat, that's what the airforce is for.
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
Any idea whether other countries with volunteer militaries are having similar issues?
hagmania
Footballguy
The military is going to keep slipping on recruitment as people draw further away from religion/believing in an afterlife.
hagmania
Footballguy
BladeRunner
Footballguy
I'm not doubting your point, necessarily, but I think a good portion of the military is NOT religious too. In any event, that's not a good thing (low recruitment). The reason we can sit around and be fat, lazy and talk about esoteric subjects is because we have a military that preserves and protects our way of life.
Without a strong military, we end up not having to worry about being fat, lazy and esoteric-talking anymore. We have to worry about more basic things, like survival and freedom and other stuff like that.
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hagmania
Footballguy
BladeRunner
Footballguy
That's fine too. It's always cool to do that when you don't have to sacrifice anything yourself.
Who do they think is preserving things for them to allow them to have such a belief?
hagmania
Footballguy
Another growing perception is that a lot of younger people don't care about America being the greatest nation in the world, or preserving that status.
This all feels like the karmic rebound of late-stage capitalism. The military is going to have to offer more money.
beer 30
Footballguy
I see some of it but you're painting with a broad brush here and it certainly doesn't apply to all.
Look, every generation has a theme but they also produce some spectacular individuals. Have some generations produced more than others? Absolutely! But they all have their fair share of heroes and people that step into the breach when the time comes. We are currently in a period directly after pulling out of a war that lasted for two decades. There is serious war fatigue in this country right on top of all the other social issues going on that are major attributors to recruitment numbers being down.
The Commish
Footballguy
Take a second to look at it from the kid's perspective and it should be rather simple to see why there's an issue. Look at how our politicians act. Look at how the "sides" act. Look how our national media machine frames all of it. There should be little doubt as to the "why" here. Who'd want to defend that goat rodeo?
Look at all the disrepect people show each other, our institutions and our flag. Look at how our politicians are conducting themselves in the face of direct threats to democracy.
Look at all the disrepect people show each other, our institutions and our flag. Look at how our politicians are conducting themselves in the face of direct threats to democracy.
BladeRunner
Footballguy
All great points.
I'm sure the previous generations have done their part into making the following generations pessimistic. However, the reality is that if military doesn't preserve our way of life then who will? I'm sure China will. Or Russia. Or someone else.
My point being is that REGARDLESS of how you feel, you need that military. Every generation MUST step up and it's not an option. They simply have to do it or someone else will. And by someone else, I mean China. Or Russia. Or someone else.
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The Z Machine
Footballguy
I read that the largest per capita recruitment happens in the US territories like American Samoa, Guam, USVI, etc. Why do we think this is? Are they more patriotic? Do they believe more strongly that America is the greatest country on earth and they need to protect it and its citizens?
I think not. I think it's primarily economic and opportunity. Jobs likely don't pay as well in these territories, aren't as plentiful, and don't let a young person see the world / get out of their small bubble like the military does.
That tells me that there are likely similar kids on the mainland that just need some more incentive to join up. Choosing their first post, lowered time commitment, and higher pay would go a long way here.
I think not. I think it's primarily economic and opportunity. Jobs likely don't pay as well in these territories, aren't as plentiful, and don't let a young person see the world / get out of their small bubble like the military does.
That tells me that there are likely similar kids on the mainland that just need some more incentive to join up. Choosing their first post, lowered time commitment, and higher pay would go a long way here.
Max Power
Footballguy
Yep, we have a lot of things trending in the wrong direction right now. This is the warning signal to right the ship. We need to figure out how to fix this instead of throwing our hands up and saying "oh well".All great points.
I'm sure the previous generations have done their part into making the following generations pessimistic. However, the reality is that if military doesn't preserve our way of life then who will? I'm sure China will. Or Russia. Or someone else.
My point being is that REGARDLESS of how you feel, you need that military. Every generation MUST step up and it's not an option. They simply have to do it or someone else will. And by someone else, I mean China. Or Russia. Or someone else.
Playing world police is draining our resources. I'm in the camp who thinks throwing more money at the situation isn't a real fix. People need to want to serve.
I'd support recruiting from the DACA pool as well. There are people hungry to be citizens.
Summer Wheat
Footballguy
Agree.
Right now I am just as worried for my family about the rising crime and murder rates in this country. The "Soft" on crime has ruined many of our cities.
The Commish
Footballguy
We only "must" step up if we feel like it's worth stepping up for in my view. A great many parents do a pretty crappy job of showing their kids what this country has to offer and how it compares to other countries around the world. They instill almost ZERO responsibility around self awareness. In my view, if you want to instill a desire to defend, you need to show why it's worth defending. Words from people behaving as I described above are completely hollow and kids see right through the bull####. We change those things I outlined and expose kids to how other countries live and things turn around rather quickly IMO.All great points.
I'm sure the previous generations have done their part into making the following generations pessimistic. However, the reality is that if military doesn't preserve our way of life then who will? I'm sure China will. Or Russia. Or someone else.
My point being is that REGARDLESS of how you feel, you need that military. Every generation MUST step up and it's not an option. They simply have to do it or someone else will. And by someone else, I mean China. Or Russia. Or someone else.
The Z Machine
Footballguy
BladeRunner
Footballguy
Disagree. There is no other option. They MUST step up if those subsequent generations want to continue as a country or they will have someone else's way of life imposed upon them.
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The Commish
Footballguy
A great many already see this as reality. How could they not with the increased government overreach in their lifetimes? As a teenager, they aren't making a distinction between "overreach from people in this country" and "overreach from other countries".Disagree. There is no other option. They MUST step up if those subsequent generations want to continue as a country and or they will have someone else's way of life imposed upon them.
BladeRunner
Footballguy
That's a distinction they will have to come to terms with then. I would think at the very least they would realize that "overreach from other countries" carries a drastically different outcome.
Hey, I won't be around if they don't care enough to protect their freedoms. I guess if and when that day comes then they'll realize the hard way of how bad they screwed up. They can take it up with their Chinese Overlords (or whoever). I'm sure they'll be very responsive to that.
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The Commish
Footballguy
In practice, it isn't really a meaningful distinction. Outside of "it can always be worse" there's not a whole lot to say. All I'm saying is that what is presented to them by their elders and leaders of this country has to change or they aren't going to. It falls on us to educate/inform them. If you're expecting 17/18 year old kids to have some sort of sudden personal enlightenment or have a large wave of self awareness magically wash over them, you're likely going to be disappointed.
This is why I send my kids on trips outside of this country as much as I can (my 14 year old is on a 3 week trip to South Africa right now). They need legit points of comparison as well as good examples to strive towards. A great many are being failed in both those areas.
Stoneworker
Footballguy
This is huge. There is a pervasive belief that "someone else" will always be available do the dirty work. As if American national security was a "right" that somehow just exists without any required effort.
BladeRunner
Footballguy
The Price of Freedom is not now, nor has it ever been, free. It's currency is blood and it is significant in price.
Subsequent generations that don't realize that are effectively condemning themselves to misery.
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