"Experts" we no longer like or trust (1 Viewer)

[Zow]

But, hey, your errant sentiment makes me money so...

How?

I'm a private criminal defense attorney. If people errantly think they're worse off with a public defender representing them than if they represented themselves, they're probably more willing to hire a private attorney.

Heard an idea recently about an AI Lawyer App. You take it into the courtroom and have audio on and the AI lets you know what to say to represent yourself. Realistic?

I laugh because I'm dealing with a self-represented opposing party in a divorce matter where he's trying to do exactly this.

He's not prevailing, but I can tell you it's annoying to deal with all of his AI-generated pleadings and correspondences.

 

[Uruk-Hai]

After last night's game, I would add the Maryland-with-a-17 point-lead to the poll.

 

[Joe Schmo]

Updated results as of 11:55am:
Teachers- 19
"Scientists"- 16
Police- 11
Lawyer- 11
Jornalists- 11
Bds of Ed- 9
Politicians- 9
Podcasters- 7
Government Talking Heads- 6 (This encompasses dept heads and spokespeople and such)
X Users- 4

 

[The Z Machine]

I trust experts are more likely to be right about their field of expertise than those who aren't part of that field. It's also important to consider what arena they are operating in. For example, if a lawyer is talking about a legal issue in an academic lecture setting, I trust they know what they are talking about and are communicating truth to the best of their ability. If that same lawyer is now employed by a political party and is speaking in front of cameras on behalf of that political party, I don't necessarily trust they are giving me the whole truth on the legal matter but are saying what their client wants them to say because they are now in the realm of politics. I trust politicians to be experts on politics and to operate in a certain way in that arena. If they are talking about education or defense or whatever, I don't necessarily trust that they are right about those topics but I trust that I can learn from them how to politic.

Also lawyers in front of a judge are likely more trustworthy than when that same lawyer is providing quotes to the media outside the courtroom.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

X users is tough. When they're not on it, sure. My experience has been that most of them are pretty good people just out for a good time. While they're on it? Pass.

 

[Zow]

We should recall the poll I put up probably 15-16 years ago where I asked the board whether they believed they'd be better off representing themselves in a criminal matter versus with the assistance of a public defender. The majority of the board answered with the former, which is just ****ing insane so be prepared for some wild answers and input here that makes the dog v. human poll seem rational.

Don't remember that thread but do find it amazeballz that even a few in here thinking they could defend themselves in court, especially in a criminal proceeding. Eesh! Wonder if the results would be different now as a bunch of us have aged up since.

If fairness to them, if they were either intentionally or not assuming I'd be said public defender back in 2007 or whatever it was, I'm not so sure I could blame them.

 

[kupcho1]

But, hey, your errant sentiment makes me money so...

How?

I'm a private criminal defense attorney. If people errantly think they're worse off with a public defender representing them than if they represented themselves, they're probably more willing to hire a private attorney.

That's just nonsense.

People don't choose to use a public defender if they've the financial wherewithal to hire an attorney. If they do have the money, they may have an inflated sense of self and choose to have a fool for a client. But they're not mulling public defender v self representation and then saying "Wait a minute, woz is available!"

If I had to estimate, I'd say you've made $0 from this situation.

 

[TheAristocrat]

But, hey, your errant sentiment makes me money so...

How?

I'm a private criminal defense attorney. If people errantly think they're worse off with a public defender representing them than if they represented themselves, they're probably more willing to hire a private attorney.

That's just nonsense.

People don't choose to use a public defender if they've the financial wherewithal to hire an attorney. If they do have the money, they may have an inflated sense of self and choose to have a fool for a client. But they're not mulling public defender v self representation and then saying "Wait a minute, woz is available!"

If I had to estimate, I'd say you've made $0 from this situation.

My guess is that there are people with money that think they can play the game on their own, find out they don't know all the rules, and then remember that they have money and don't need to deal with this alone.

 

[ChiefD]

But, hey, your errant sentiment makes me money so...

How?

I'm a private criminal defense attorney. If people errantly think they're worse off with a public defender representing them than if they represented themselves, they're probably more willing to hire a private attorney.

Heard an idea recently about an AI Lawyer App. You take it into the courtroom and have audio on and the AI lets you know what to say to represent yourself. Realistic?

I laugh because I'm dealing with a self-represented opposing party in a divorce matter where he's trying to do exactly this.

He's not prevailing, but I can tell you it's annoying to deal with all of his AI-generated pleadings and correspondences.

I would pay money to watch this.

 

[brun]

Saddened to see teachers leading the way here.

Thats on me, I worded the title and poll differently and you are supppsoed to check the ones you Do trust. That means teachers are in the lead

I was confused. just changed my votes.
I'm guessing others are/were confused also. Got a feeling this will be a poll that I cannot trust.

I would add C suite positions to "experts" I do not trust.

 

[Zow]

But, hey, your errant sentiment makes me money so...

How?

I'm a private criminal defense attorney. If people errantly think they're worse off with a public defender representing them than if they represented themselves, they're probably more willing to hire a private attorney.

That's just nonsense.

People don't choose to use a public defender if they've the financial wherewithal to hire an attorney. If they do have the money, they may have an inflated sense of self and choose to have a fool for a client. But they're not mulling public defender v self representation and then saying "Wait a minute, woz is available!"

If I had to estimate, I'd say you've made $0 from this situation.

I appreciate you proving the point of this thread.

 

[ChiefD]

I trust no one.

 

[tommyGunZ]

We should recall the poll I put up probably 15-16 years ago where I asked the board whether they believed they'd be better off representing themselves in a criminal matter versus with the assistance of a public defender. The majority of the board answered with the former, which is just ****ing insane so be prepared for some wild answers and input here that makes the dog v. human poll seem rational.

I don't think I'd go that far. Public defenders are one of the most over-worked professions in the world. They often have at most hours to prepare for each of the many, many cases they have. I wouldn't necessarily call representing yourself insane. It really depends on the public defender available, the ability of the person charged and the facts of the case.

Is this serious?

 

[Joe Schmo]

Based on current results it seems journalists, police and lawyers are equally distrusted while very few trust bds of ed which I find surprising.

 

[Joe Schmo]

"scientists" and teachers are holding there own

 

[fruity pebbles]

I probably trust lawyers most on that list. They have a job to do but I trust, if I hire one, they are going to give good advice. Teachers……that depends they can be great or pretty awful. My 8 year old son’s teacher told the class the other day that narwhals are mythical creatures.

 

[gianmarco]

Doctors should be on that list.

 

[Gally]

Doctors should be on that list.

They likely fall under the "scientists" category

 

[nirad3]

Interesting thread, I suppose... but I think it really just boils down to "it depends". I don't trust many of each category on the list, even teachers.

 

[Joe Schmo]

Doctors should be on that list.

They likely fall under the "scientists" category

Actually they fall under the "quacks" category, will add to next poll.

 

[Bozeman Bruiser]

I bet there are a lot of Reddit and BlueSky users up in here.

And Politico and WaPo readers.

Don't ever change FFA, don't ever change.

 

[kupcho1]

But, hey, your errant sentiment makes me money so...

How?

I'm a private criminal defense attorney. If people errantly think they're worse off with a public defender representing them than if they represented themselves, they're probably more willing to hire a private attorney.

That's just nonsense.

People don't choose to use a public defender if they've the financial wherewithal to hire an attorney. If they do have the money, they may have an inflated sense of self and choose to have a fool for a client. But they're not mulling public defender v self representation and then saying "Wait a minute, woz is available!"

If I had to estimate, I'd say you've made $0 from this situation.

I appreciate you proving the point of this thread.

OK, you're 0 for 2

#1, the point of this thread is "Experts we no longer like or trust." Your statement that I'm proving the point of this thread is, again, nonsensical. I've made zero statements about who I no longer like or distrust. Full disclosure: I haven't even voted in the poll.

#2, the post of mine for which you're making this silly contention was that you claimed you make money from people deciding to represent themselves, when nothing could be further from the truth. You are (purportedly) a criminal defense attorney. Someone choosing to represent themself is the exact opposite of you making money.

We should recall the poll I put up probably 15-16 years ago where I asked the board whether they believed they'd be better off representing themselves in a criminal matter versus with the assistance of a public defender. The majority of the board answered with the former, which is just ****ing insane so be prepared for some wild answers and input here that makes the dog v. human poll seem rational.

I don't think I'd go that far. Public defenders are one of the most over-worked professions in the world. They often have at most hours to prepare for each of the many, many cases they have. I wouldn't necessarily call representing yourself insane. It really depends on the public defender available, the ability of the person charged and the facts of the case.

Is this serious?

100% serious. To be clear, I'm not claiming that just anyone could better represent themself in court. But one fact is crystal clear: public defenders are overworked.
Try typing "how overworked" into Google and the autocomplete at the very top of the list is "are public defenders"

From Oct 2023 National Public Defense Workloads Standards (American Bar Association):

Public defense attorneys with excessive caseloads cannot give appropriate time and attention to each client. Excessive caseloads violate ethics rules and inevitably cause harm. Overburdened attorneys are forced to choose cases or activities to focus on, such that many cases are resolved without appropriate diligence. A justice system burdened by triage risks unreliability, denying all people who rely on it — victims, witnesses, defendants, and their families and communities — efficient, equal, and accurate justice.

Current Standards for Public Defender Caseloads Are Too High, Study Says

So that's point 1: public defenders are overworked and, per the Rand study, cannot do the work required to adequately defend cases.

Now does that make it possible for every criminal defendant to represent themself? Of course not. But that's not what I said. I said that the ability of the defendant as well as the particulars of the case are also factors.

Anyway, if you want to keep questioning this, feel free. I've said all I care to say about it.

 

[Zeppelin]

How politicians got any votes is beyond me.

 

[tommyGunZ]

You're strawmanning the argument about public defenders being overworked.. I doubt anyone in this thread disputes that. I feel confident speaking for myself and Zow - we agree PD's are overworked. Coach Thibs (Knicks) famously exhausts his players; he's famous for grinding them down to the point where they aren't as effective in the playoffs. But even in that exhausted state, do you think an average Joe from the local YMCA is a better option than the tired pro?

What % time would you suggest it would be wise for a person to self defend as opposed to accepting counsel from a public defender? Bear in mind that accepting counsel from a PD does not mean that you can't participate in your defense.

 

[northern exposure]

Based on current results it seems journalists, police and lawyers are equally distrusted while very few trust bds of ed which I find surprising.

What I don't trust is your ability to interpret the results of your own poll.
The instructions are to place a checkmark next to the profession if we trust them. Teachers and "scientists" are the only professions with more votes than the 3 you listed above.

 

[Tecumseh]

After last night's game, I would add the Maryland-with-a-17 point-lead to the poll.

I trust tOSU with a 17 point deficit.

 

[Tecumseh]

Doctors should be on that list.

I was thinking doctors/nurses. Seems like the opinion of medical professionals has taken a complete 180 since COVID.

 

[Joe Schmo]

Based on current results it seems journalists, police and lawyers are equally distrusted while very few trust bds of ed which I find surprising.

What I don't trust is your ability to interpret the results of your own poll.
The instructions are to place a checkmark next to the profession if we trust them. Teachers and "scientists" are the only professions with more votes than the 3 you listed above.

At the time of writing the 3 listed were within a few votes of one another and all were at or below 50% of votes cast. As of now, police and journalists are still close but all 3 are still just at or below 50% trust. Teachers and "scientists" are well above 50% and near 70% trust level. The fact that lawyers and Bds of ed are trending the same is the interesting one to me.

 

[Terminalxylem]

Doctors should be on that list.

Not to be trusted

 

[Terminalxylem]

I bet there are a lot of Reddit and BlueSky users up in here.

And Politico and WaPo readers.

Don't ever change FFA, don't ever change.

I have no idea what this means, but I’m guessing political?

 

[Zow]

But, hey, your errant sentiment makes me money so...

How?

I'm a private criminal defense attorney. If people errantly think they're worse off with a public defender representing them than if they represented themselves, they're probably more willing to hire a private attorney.

That's just nonsense.

People don't choose to use a public defender if they've the financial wherewithal to hire an attorney. If they do have the money, they may have an inflated sense of self and choose to have a fool for a client. But they're not mulling public defender v self representation and then saying "Wait a minute, woz is available!"

If I had to estimate, I'd say you've made $0 from this situation.

I appreciate you proving the point of this thread.

OK, you're 0 for 2

#1, the point of this thread is "Experts we no longer like or trust." Your statement that I'm proving the point of this thread is, again, nonsensical. I've made zero statements about who I no longer like or distrust. Full disclosure: I haven't even voted in the poll.

I'm literally an expert on the issue you're telling me I'm 0 for 2 on as opposed to trusting my input.

ETA: In fairness, I recognize that for all you know I'm just some poster on a fantasy football board.

 

[nirad3]

I bet there are a lot of Reddit and BlueSky users up in here.

And Politico and WaPo readers.

Don't ever change FFA, don't ever change.

I have no idea what this means, but I’m guessing poltical?

Absolutely. Took long enough, eh?

 

[gianmarco]

Doctors should be on that list.

Not to be trusted

Yep, that's why I added it based on the title of the thread!

 

[Mister CIA]

Try typing "how overworked" into Google and the autocomplete at the very top of the list is "are public defenders"

My Google autocompleted "are Americans" to the top of the list.

 

[Joe Schmo]

Try typing "how overworked" into Google and the autocomplete at the very top of the list is "are public defenders"

My Google autocompleted "are Americans" to the top of the list.

Mine autocompleted "are strippers in the champagne room"

 

[Zow]

Try typing "how overworked" into Google and the autocomplete at the very top of the list is "are public defenders"

My Google autocompleted "are Americans" to the top of the list.

I did get public defenders when I tried it. Assume that's a touch of AI going into though.

It's not ironic because I'm compensated plenty fairly for it and choose to do it, but I work significantly more now than I did as a public defender. That said, there are some public defense offenses that unfortunately allow their assigned caseloads to exceed ethical boundaries and many public defenders are underpaid for their work (especially compared to their prosecutorial counterparts).

 

[TheAristocrat]

I bet there are a lot of Reddit and BlueSky users up in here.

And Politico and WaPo readers.

Don't ever change FFA, don't ever change.

How to get Cheeto dust out of your eye(s):

Steps

1. Remove the Cheeto from your hand(s) or mouth.
2. Wash your hands with soap and water.
3. Gently pour water or saline over your eye.
4. If you're wearing contact lenses, remove them before flushing.
5. Blink to help push the Cheeto dust out.

Additional tips

• You can also try standing under a shower and aiming a gentle stream of lukewarm water on your forehead over the affected eye.
• If you can see the Cheeto dust on the inner surface of your eyelid, you can use a cotton-tipped swab to invert the eyelid and inspect the underside.
• Don't rub your eyes.
• If you've been hit in the eye with a ball or balls, rock, or elbow, you can apply a cold compress to your eye for 15 minutes to reduce swelling and pain.

 

[kupcho1]

I'm literally an expert on the issue you're telling me I'm 0 for 2 on as opposed to trusting my input.

What are you talking about? I didn't tell you that you were 0 for 2 on an issue.

I've gotta believe reading comprehension is valuable in your chosen field (i.e., criminal defense attorney dealing with self-represented opposing parties in divorce matters, which seems odd, but whatever), yet you keep missing the point.

You made the statement: "I appreciate you proving the point of this thread." in response to my calling you out on your claim that you somehow make money when potential clients choose not to make use of your services.

The point of the thread is "Experts" we no longer like or trust. FTR, I trust attorneys. I have attorneys in my family, as close friends and previously as work colleagues. It's not a matter of trusting or not trusting you. Nothing I've said enters into it. And nothing I've said "proves the point of this thread." It's a poll soliciting views on professions no longer trusted. The OP made no point to be argued.

You made a sweeping generalization and I questioned it. I provided a basis for it (i.e., reports on the inadequacy of public defenders) that you omit from your response.
I've never made the statement that no one should make use of a public defender.

 

[Gatorade]

Doctors should be on that list.

I was thinking doctors/nurses. Seems like the opinion of medical professionals has taken a complete 180 since COVID.

Does anyone ever get to see an actual doctor anymore ?

 

[Gatorade]

Influencers count?

Apparently not even worth mentioning.

 

[Gally]

How politicians got any votes is beyond me.

Because the pole was set up confusingly at first to make it seem like you were voting for the people you don't trust (if you didn't read close enough). Then it was clarified that you were supposed to vote for the trustworthy.

The people that voted politicians probably haven't come back to change their votes.

 

[gianmarco]

I don't trust this thread, that's for sure.

 

[SFBayDuck]

I don't trust this thread, that's for sure.

This thread is going....exactly as expected.

 

[Sparky Polastri]

I bet there are a lot of Reddit and BlueSky users up in here.

And Politico and WaPo readers.

Don't ever change FFA, don't ever change.

How to get Cheeto dust out of your eye(s):

Steps

1. Remove the Cheeto from your hand(s) or mouth.
2. Wash your hands with soap and water.
3. Gently pour water or saline over your eye.
4. If you're wearing contact lenses, remove them before flushing.
5. Blink to help push the Cheeto dust out.

Additional tips

• You can also try standing under a shower and aiming a gentle stream of lukewarm water on your forehead over the affected eye.
• If you can see the Cheeto dust on the inner surface of your eyelid, you can use a cotton-tipped swab to invert the eyelid and inspect the underside.
• Don't rub your eyes.
• If you've been hit in the eye with a ball or balls, rock, or elbow, you can apply a cold compress to your eye for 15 minutes to reduce swelling and pain.

 

[ChiefD]

I don't trust this thread, that's for sure.

This thread is going....exactly as expected.

I trust these two comments.

That's all though.

 

[Zow]

I'm literally an expert on the issue you're telling me I'm 0 for 2 on as opposed to trusting my input.

What are you talking about? I didn't tell you that you were 0 for 2 on an issue.

I've gotta believe reading comprehension is valuable in your chosen field (i.e., criminal defense attorney dealing with self-represented opposing parties in divorce matters, which seems odd, but whatever), yet you keep missing the point.

You made the statement: "I appreciate you proving the point of this thread." in response to my calling you out on your claim that you somehow make money when potential clients choose not to make use of your services.

The point of the thread is "Experts" we no longer like or trust. FTR, I trust attorneys. I have attorneys in my family, as close friends and previously as work colleagues. It's not a matter of trusting or not trusting you. Nothing I've said enters into it. And nothing I've said "proves the point of this thread." It's a poll soliciting views on professions no longer trusted. The OP made no point to be argued.

You made a sweeping generalization and I questioned it. I provided a basis for it (i.e., reports on the inadequacy of public defenders) that you omit from your response.
I've never made the statement that no one should make use of a public defender.

1. Your post at 12:07 MST said I was 0-2.
2. I made statements about public defenders which you went as far as to state were "nonsense" and questioned them.
3. I was a public defender for years. I have been previously offered the position of heading up a public defender's office. I am well abreast of the ethical regulations, limits, etc. concerning public defenders. In short, while I recognize you have attorneys in your family and did some research on public defender workloads (genuine credit for that), I'm literally an expert on the topic.
4. You proved the point of the thread by not trusting any expert's input on an issue and, instead, questioning it and calling it nonsense. Which goes to the whole ultimate point of the thread that society now seems, more than ever, to question experts.


*You have a fair point about my other post seeming confusing about dealing with a self-represented litigant as a criminal defense attorney would being dealing with the State in opposition. My current caseload consists of contentious divorce/family law matters and serious felony criminal defense (rapes, murder, agg assaults, etc.). I'd personally prefer to be a public defender and practice solely criminal defense for the indigent, but 4 kids and a bad golf habit are expensive.

 

[kupcho1]

1. Your post at 12:07 MST said I was 0-2.
2. I made statements about public defenders which you went as far as to state were "nonsense" and questioned them.
3. I was a public defender for years. I have been previously offered the position of heading up a public defender's office. I am well abreast of the ethical regulations, limits, etc. concerning public defenders. In short, while I recognize you have attorneys in your family and did some research on public defender workloads (genuine credit for that), I'm literally an expert on the topic.
4. You proved the point of the thread but not trusting any expert's input on an issue and, instead, questioning it and calling it nonsense. Which goes to the whole ultimate point of the thread that society now seems, more than ever, to question experts.


*You have a fair point about my other post seeming confusing about dealing with a self-represented litigant as a criminal defense attorney would being dealing with the State in opposition. My current caseload consists of contentious divorce/family law matters and serious felony criminal defense (rapes, murder, agg assaults, etc.). I'd personally prefer to be a public defender and practice solely criminal defense for the indigent, but 4 kids and a bad golf habit are expensive.

Regarding ...

1. Correct

2. Please direct me to any statements I made regarding your statements on public defenders. If I'm wrong, I'll own it.

3. I appreciate the fact that you are an expert on public defenders. I cannot fathom why you accuse me of questioning your expertise in this field. I believe we are in violent agreement that public defenders are overworked. The only reason I brought it up was as a potential factor in why someone might represent themselves. (There are certainly other factors at play; but I believe reasonable people can accept that it might be one factor.)

4. I've not questioned any expertise you may have on public defenders. I'm not sure why we're talking at cross-purposes, but when you say I'm missing the point of the thread, you're off base. Your assumption that I'm disagreeing with you on public defenders is incorrect. What's more troubling is that you take that assumed disagreement and expand it into a contention that I disagree with all attorneys, or experts, or who knows what else.

* I was just busting your balls on this one.
I hope you win a lot of skins games this summer and can afford to go back to public defending.

 

[Scoresman]

Voted only for teachers and scientists because they are the ones we should be listening to and they should stand out. People who “ do their own research” infuriate me to no end.

I don’t know who Ed is or what board he serves on but it sounds suspicious.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

Influencers count?

Apparently not even worth mentioning.

Well so much for their influence.

 

[Mitchie]

In the words of Stalin, I trust noone, not even myself.