Falcons OC blames Vick for passing game woes: (1 Viewer)

[SproutDaddy]

if Jenkins catches that pass, the Falcons win that game.

I did not see the game, but I've heard similar things from others - specificly that the WRs were dropping a lot of catchable passes. I don't think anyone would confuse Vick's throwing ability with Palmer's or Manning's, but, for those who saw the game, do you feel that the receivers were as responsible (or more) as Vick for the struggling passing game?

Just for a point of reference, the 3 main recievers on ATL, Crumpler, Jenkins and White have combined for 6 dropped passes this year. That's not exactly a number you associate with recievers having trouble catching the ball. Of course you can't catch what isn't catchable. Vick's passing completion % is 50.4%. Only Young, Walter & Collins are lower. I think this explains the problem better than blaming the recievers.

To be fair...I've seen 2 Atlanta games this year(the Saints game and the Giants one), and in my 15 or so years as a football fan I don't know if I've ever seen WRs be as completely covered on every play. They simply don't create separation.I'm a big fan of Vick, so take all of this with a dash of pepper, but I think that his accuracy problems are overblown. IMO he is just as accurate as someone like McNabb, and McNabb seems to have developed into a very good passing QB.

I'm out. The @#$% has gotten too thick, and I don't have any boots!

 

[Loopdog]

If you guys get the chance to watch Inside the NFL this week, Cris Carter did a sit down interview with Vick and IMO it was a great piece. He asked Vick alot of the similar questions that many of us posed in this thread: (Dan Reeves vs Mora Offense, WR problems, etc. )

it was really good i thought

 

[juveduke]

And you're saying that that makes him an average passer for an NFL starting QB? Being better than Andrew Walter?

You brought him up. I'm still waiting for someone who is in a similar situation as Vick this year.

 

[cstu]

Vick is tied for 5th in rushing for 1st downs with 25 - no other QB even has 9. Regardless of his passing ability, which is everyone will agree is mediocre, he gets the job done and moves the chains.

As far as the loss to the Giants, Vick was bad but so was most of the team. Dunn had a great game, but the play-calling was horrible after his 90 yard TD run - he only ran twice after that. For the OC to lay the blame on Vick's passing when the defense knew every play was going to be pass is a joke. If I'm going to fault Vick for anything it's that sacks are very difficult for him to recover from since he's at his best in short yardage situations. He's not going to win many games when he has a lot of 3rd and 17's.

 

[Buttmonkey]

In regards to Vick, it is what it is.

HTH

 

[faulkfan]

I live in Atlanta now so I get/have to watch all the games. The curious irony with Vick is this...the fact that he runs puts the defense on edge and pulls the linebackers up to the line to shadow him. This tends to leave a gap between the linebackers who moved closer to the line and the DBs who are covering the deep WRs. This is a great area to exploit and it is created because of Vick's running ability. Here's the irony; Vick can't make the touch pass. He can't drop the ball between the LBs and the DBs. The trajectory of his passes is so flat that he either overthrows the WR trying to get it over the LBs head, or he gets the ball knocked down by the LB before it ever gets to the WR.

I really don't know how to fix this problem, but as someone already mentioned, saying that the offense is limited because of Vick's poor passing skills is stating the obvious.

 

[pghrob]

if Jenkins catches that pass, the Falcons win that game.

I did not see the game, but I've heard similar things from others - specificly that the WRs were dropping a lot of catchable passes. I don't think anyone would confuse Vick's throwing ability with Palmer's or Manning's, but, for those who saw the game, do you feel that the receivers were as responsible (or more) as Vick for the struggling passing game?

I have Vick on my FFB team, and I have seen numerous drops by Crumpler and the WR's that if I was Mike, I would be freaking out.

 

[pghrob]

if Jenkins catches that pass, the Falcons win that game.

I did not see the game, but I've heard similar things from others - specificly that the WRs were dropping a lot of catchable passes. I don't think anyone would confuse Vick's throwing ability with Palmer's or Manning's, but, for those who saw the game, do you feel that the receivers were as responsible (or more) as Vick for the struggling passing game?

Just for a point of reference, the 3 main recievers on ATL, Crumpler, Jenkins and White have combined for 6 dropped passes this year. That's not exactly a number you associate with recievers having trouble catching the ball. Of course you can't catch what isn't catchable. Vick's passing completion % is 50.4%. Only Young, Walter & Collins are lower. I think this explains the problem better than blaming the recievers.

I swear I have seen almost 6 drops alone for Crumpler this season. Maybe I don't know how to count the drops while watching, but I swear Crumpler has looked awful to me while I watch the Falcons.

 

[pghrob]

if Jenkins catches that pass, the Falcons win that game.

I did not see the game, but I've heard similar things from others - specificly that the WRs were dropping a lot of catchable passes. I don't think anyone would confuse Vick's throwing ability with Palmer's or Manning's, but, for those who saw the game, do you feel that the receivers were as responsible (or more) as Vick for the struggling passing game?

Just for a point of reference, the 3 main recievers on ATL, Crumpler, Jenkins and White have combined for 6 dropped passes this year.

not sure who is keeping those stats, but i can easily remember 6 drops by Crumpler alone.

They were likely rated as "poorly thrown". While it's subjective, it's subjective for all the QB's, not just Vick.

If the ball hits the receivers hands, it should be catchable...atleast by NFL standards.Mike has not gotten help from his receivers.

 

[War Eagle]

I for one am sick of everyone blaming Vick. A vast majority of the blame should be on the WRs. I have watched every game Vick has started for Atlanta. It's true that touch is sometimes an issue for Vick when he's in the pocket. But his touch on the ball when he's out of the pocket is amazing. Last week the roll out to the left, flick it 60 yards right in the hands of Jenkins......WHO DROPPED IT!

Do you think Steve Smith, Holt, Fitz, TO, or Moss miss that ball?

The answer is NO!

Over the past 3 games there have been 4 perfectly catchable TD passes DROPPED. Feel free to review the tape!

How is Vick supposed to have faith enough in his receivers to even sit in the pocket. Why? They'll just drop it and ATL will have to punt.

I think Vick has Zippy faith in them and knows that he, Dunn, and Crumpler have to get it done. But even Crumpler has had the drops this year.

The only QBs that have less pass attempts than Vick....Simms, V. Young, and Walter.

So are the coaches not calling pass plays, or is Vick taking 3 steps back and seeing his WRs smoothered? Or does he just envision them dropping ANOTHER pass?

Here's a good article.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/insider/col...02=stateChanged

 

[guderian]

If you guys get the chance to watch Inside the NFL this week, Cris Carter did a sit down interview with Vick and IMO it was a great piece. He asked Vick alot of the similar questions that many of us posed in this thread: (Dan Reeves vs Mora Offense, WR problems, etc. )it was really good i thought

I saw it and it seemed like Vick was blaming everyone but himself. He threw the coaches and his receivers under the bus and it doesn't seem that he'll be happy no matter how they use him. The guy seems incredibly sensitive to criticism and preoccupied with his stats.

 

[Rushmore]

I for one am sick of everyone blaming Vick. A vast majority of the blame should be on the WRs. I have watched every game Vick has started for Atlanta. It's true that touch is sometimes an issue for Vick when he's in the pocket. But his touch on the ball when he's out of the pocket is amazing. Last week the roll out to the left, flick it 60 yards right in the hands of Jenkins......WHO DROPPED IT!

Do you think Steve Smith, Holt, Fitz, TO, or Moss miss that ball?

The answer is NO!

Over the past 3 games there have been 4 perfectly catchable TD passes DROPPED. Feel free to review the tape!

How is Vick supposed to have faith enough in his receivers to even sit in the pocket. Why? They'll just drop it and ATL will have to punt.

I think Vick has Zippy faith in them and knows that he, Dunn, and Crumpler have to get it done. But even Crumpler has had the drops this year.

The only QBs that have less pass attempts than Vick....Simms, V. Young, and Walter.

So are the coaches not calling pass plays, or is Vick taking 3 steps back and seeing his WRs smoothered? Or does he just envision them dropping ANOTHER pass?

Here's a good article.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/insider/col...02=stateChanged

 

[Gargoylez]

if Jenkins catches that pass, the Falcons win that game.

I did not see the game, but I've heard similar things from others - specificly that the WRs were dropping a lot of catchable passes. I don't think anyone would confuse Vick's throwing ability with Palmer's or Manning's, but, for those who saw the game, do you feel that the receivers were as responsible (or more) as Vick for the struggling passing game?

Just for a point of reference, the 3 main recievers on ATL, Crumpler, Jenkins and White have combined for 6 dropped passes this year.

not sure who is keeping those stats, but i can easily remember 6 drops by Crumpler alone.

THREE in the Saints game alone.

 

[Gargoylez]

If you guys get the chance to watch Inside the NFL this week, Cris Carter did a sit down interview with Vick and IMO it was a great piece. He asked Vick alot of the similar questions that many of us posed in this thread: (Dan Reeves vs Mora Offense, WR problems, etc. )it was really good i thought

I saw it and it seemed like Vick was blaming everyone but himself. He threw the coaches and his receivers under the bus and it doesn't seem that he'll be happy no matter how they use him. The guy seems incredibly sensitive to criticism and preoccupied with his stats.

He has probably some of the lowest stats throwing in the NFL since he has entered the league. I dont think Stats are on his mind... the fact they lost a game they should won was on his mind IMO.

 

[Banger]

How many WR's, OC's, etc. is it gonna take for people to realize that Vick is not a passing QB.

This is a great answer from another thread from an NFL scout regarding Vick....

Are Michael Jenkins and Roddy White behind in their development or is Michael Vick the bigger problem in the Atlanta Falcons' passing attack?

The passing game is about rhythm and timing. Route progressions coincide with the depth of the quarterback's drops or rollout position. In other words, a receiver runs a route to a certain pre-determined destination with the knowledge of when and where the ball is scheduled to arrive.

So much of the Falcons' passing game is dictated by Vick's improvisational athletic skills. Vick excels in buying time and creating movements in coverage, so receivers have to adjust on the fly and work their way back to the quarterback. So, Falcons' receivers often run good routes and get open, but Vick may be in avoid-the-rush or run mode and might not deliver the ball on time.

What Vick does very effectively is create space in coverage with his running skills. Defenses must often come off their coverage in an effort to defend Vick as he approaches the line of scrimmage, only to give enough space in a throwing lane to make for an easy throw that does not have to be as precise into a peeled-off coverage situation.

Vick is a free-wheeler and doesn't make quick reads and deliver the ball quickly which is what the West Coast offense is all about. Watch Gradkowski and you will see this. He doesn't have NEARLY the talent that Vick does but he does know how to play the QB position. Gradkowski in two games as a rookie has passed for more yards in both games than Vick has all year. He's also thrown for more TD's (4) in two games than Vick has in 5 (3).

Vick is a winner though, right???

 

[Big Score]

What Vick does very effectively is create space in coverage with his running skills. Defenses must often come off their coverage in an effort to defend Vick as he approaches the line of scrimmage, only to give enough space in a throwing lane to make for an easy throw that does not have to be as precise into a peeled-off coverage situation.

"What Vick does very effectively is create space in coverage with his running skills. Defenses must often come off their coverage"Wouldn't this be a good thing for WR's?

 

[Banger]

What Vick does very effectively is create space in coverage with his running skills. Defenses must often come off their coverage in an effort to defend Vick as he approaches the line of scrimmage, only to give enough space in a throwing lane to make for an easy throw that does not have to be as precise into a peeled-off coverage situation.

"What Vick does very effectively is create space in coverage with his running skills. Defenses must often come off their coverage"Wouldn't this be a good thing for WR's?

That's how he gets his 100 or so yards passing each game.

 

[Sheriff66]

Vick is not a QB, glorified RB that they let throw the ball once in awhile. They want to make the team better, let Schabb QB and Vick play a slash role, which he could be unstoppable at. He's a faster Kordella...

 

[Banger]

Vick is not a QB, glorified RB that they let throw the ball once in awhile. They want to make the team better, let Schabb QB and Vick play a slash role, which he could be unstoppable at. He's a faster Kordella...

on the NFL network last night Faulk suggested a QBBC committee. He said that he would have Schaub split time with Vick and that he'd have special packages for Vick.

 

[Big Score]

What Vick does very effectively is create space in coverage with his running skills. Defenses must often come off their coverage in an effort to defend Vick as he approaches the line of scrimmage, only to give enough space in a throwing lane to make for an easy throw that does not have to be as precise into a peeled-off coverage situation.

"What Vick does very effectively is create space in coverage with his running skills. Defenses must often come off their coverage"Wouldn't this be a good thing for WR's?

That's how he gets his 100 or so yards passing each game.

So it would be more if the WR's would pull in the catchable balls that they're dropping right now?

 

[Big Score]

Vick is not a QB, glorified RB that they let throw the ball once in awhile. They want to make the team better, let Schabb QB and Vick play a slash role, which he could be unstoppable at. He's a faster Kordella...

on the NFL network last night Faulk suggested a QBBC committee. He said that he would have Schaub split time with Vick and that he'd have special packages for Vick.

Just an FYI,Schaub has started & finished 4 games for the Falcons.The Falcons have lost every single one of Schanb's starts.

 

[Da Guru]

Vick is not a QB, glorified RB that they let throw the ball once in awhile. They want to make the team better, let Schabb QB and Vick play a slash role, which he could be unstoppable at. He's a faster Kordella...

on the NFL network last night Faulk suggested a QBBC committee. He said that he would have Schaub split time with Vick and that he'd have special packages for Vick.

That makes very good sense. Also it would keep the other teams off balance. Schuab is a superior passer, and vick could run and try to pass at times out of the shotgun. It would make the Falcons very difficult to prepare for.

 

[Big Score]

Vick is not a QB, glorified RB that they let throw the ball once in awhile. They want to make the team better, let Schabb QB and Vick play a slash role, which he could be unstoppable at. He's a faster Kordella...

on the NFL network last night Faulk suggested a QBBC committee. He said that he would have Schaub split time with Vick and that he'd have special packages for Vick.

That makes very good sense. Also it would kepp the other teams off balance. Schuab is a superior passer, and vick coulr run and try to pass at times out of the shotgun. It would make the Falcons very difficult to prepare for.

Far too obvious what the play will be with a QB rotation like that.Vick in, defend the run.Schaub in, defend the pass.Wouldn't work.

 

[Da Guru]

Vick is not a QB, glorified RB that they let throw the ball once in awhile. They want to make the team better, let Schabb QB and Vick play a slash role, which he could be unstoppable at. He's a faster Kordella...

on the NFL network last night Faulk suggested a QBBC committee. He said that he would have Schaub split time with Vick and that he'd have special packages for Vick.

Just an FYI,Schaub has started & finished 4 games for the Falcons.The Falcons have lost every single one of Schanb's starts.

Schuab has only started 2 games, one as a rookie. The second one the Falcons scored 31 and lost. Schuab threw for over 330 yards and three TDs in that game. The other team won on the last drive.Withh all the excuse you make for Vick you surely can find an excuse as to why Schuab lost that one.

 

[Banger]

What Vick does very effectively is create space in coverage with his running skills. Defenses must often come off their coverage in an effort to defend Vick as he approaches the line of scrimmage, only to give enough space in a throwing lane to make for an easy throw that does not have to be as precise into a peeled-off coverage situation.

"What Vick does very effectively is create space in coverage with his running skills. Defenses must often come off their coverage"Wouldn't this be a good thing for WR's?

That's how he gets his 100 or so yards passing each game.

So it would be more if the WR's would pull in the catchable balls that they're dropping right now?

Every QB has guys that drop balls. A couple years ago KRob/Djax/Stevens killed Hass with dropped balls. They still won games, he still had big games. It's magnified in Vicks case because he only throws 20 times a game. Also, while he has a rocket arm he doesn't have the best touch on his throws. My big question whe it comes to Vick is when is it Vicks fault? It's the system, the OC, the qb coach, the wr's can't get open, the wr's drop balls, etc. How many trades, FA signings, draft picks have they spent over the past few years trying to get a wr into that offense? Maybe, just maybe, it's not the wr's, the system, etc.

He was always given the benefit of the doubt because he was a "winner" despite his poor qb skills. Last year they were 8-8 and this year they are 3-2 (3rd in their division) and look to be headed to another 8-8, 7-9 finish. Another thing to consider is that Vick's skillset (a running QB) will have a much shorter shelf life than being a pocket passer. If he's not successful/improving now at his prime he will never be.

 

[Banger]

Vick is not a QB, glorified RB that they let throw the ball once in awhile. They want to make the team better, let Schabb QB and Vick play a slash role, which he could be unstoppable at. He's a faster Kordella...

on the NFL network last night Faulk suggested a QBBC committee. He said that he would have Schaub split time with Vick and that he'd have special packages for Vick.

That makes very good sense. Also it would kepp the other teams off balance. Schuab is a superior passer, and vick coulr run and try to pass at times out of the shotgun. It would make the Falcons very difficult to prepare for.

It's exactly what Faulk said. Bring in Schaub in obvious passing downs, 3rd and 9. Keep Vick in on 3rd and 2's where he could scramble. Best of both worlds.

 

[Big Score]

What Vick does very effectively is create space in coverage with his running skills. Defenses must often come off their coverage in an effort to defend Vick as he approaches the line of scrimmage, only to give enough space in a throwing lane to make for an easy throw that does not have to be as precise into a peeled-off coverage situation.

"What Vick does very effectively is create space in coverage with his running skills. Defenses must often come off their coverage"Wouldn't this be a good thing for WR's?

That's how he gets his 100 or so yards passing each game.

So it would be more if the WR's would pull in the catchable balls that they're dropping right now?

Every QB has guys that drop balls. A couple years ago KRob/Djax/Stevens killed Hass with dropped balls. They still won games, he still had big games. It's magnified in Vicks case because he only throws 20 times a game. Also, while he has a rocket arm he doesn't have the best touch on his throws. My big question whe it comes to Vick is when is it Vicks fault? It's the system, the OC, the qb coach, the wr's can't get open, the wr's drop balls, etc. How many trades, FA signings, draft picks have they spent over the past few years trying to get a wr into that offense? Maybe, just maybe, it's not the wr's, the system, etc.

He was always given the benefit of the doubt because he was a "winner" despite his poor qb skills. Last year they were 8-8 and this year they are 3-2 (3rd in their division) and look to be headed to another 8-8, 7-9 finish. Another thing to consider is that Vick's skillset (a running QB) will have a much shorter shelf life than being a pocket passer. If he's not successful/improving now at his prime he will never be.

Some of what you wrote would make sense, except that, as has been ponited out in this very thread, Vick performed far better under Dan Reeves & his style of offense, than what Mora Jr is currently running & from all the folks who have actually been watching the Falcons games this year, the WR's are apprently dropping a ton of catchable balls, including a few game changing TD passes."It's magnified in Vicks case because he only throws 20 times a game."

This I agree with. Which of course makes sure handed receivers that much more important.

 

[Banger]

Vick is not a QB, glorified RB that they let throw the ball once in awhile. They want to make the team better, let Schabb QB and Vick play a slash role, which he could be unstoppable at. He's a faster Kordella...

on the NFL network last night Faulk suggested a QBBC committee. He said that he would have Schaub split time with Vick and that he'd have special packages for Vick.

Just an FYI,Schaub has started & finished 4 games for the Falcons.The Falcons have lost every single one of Schanb's starts.

Schuab has only started 2 games, one as a rookie. The second one the Falcons scored 31 and lost. Schuab threw for over 330 yards and three TDs in that game. The other team won on the last drive.Withh all the excuse you make for Vick you surely can find an excuse as to why Schuab lost that one.

Vick in 5 seasons, 63 games, has only had 330 combined yards in 3 games, two of which were in '02 his rookie year and remarkably Vick has NEVER throw 3 tds in a game. So Schaub has done in a handful of games in the same offense things that Vick has never done or done only a few times in 60+ games.My take is that the league has caught up with Vick. When he came out of college he was a phenom and teams didn't know how to contain him. After a few years and tons of tape, of what worked and what didn't, teams know how to contain now much more than they did early in his career. It's a constant chess match and good players have to learn what teams are doing to stop them and adjust. Vick's problem is that he's not learning or adjusting and is just doing the same thing over and over hoping for different results.

 

[guderian]

If you guys get the chance to watch Inside the NFL this week, Cris Carter did a sit down interview with Vick and IMO it was a great piece. He asked Vick alot of the similar questions that many of us posed in this thread: (Dan Reeves vs Mora Offense, WR problems, etc. )it was really good i thought

I saw it and it seemed like Vick was blaming everyone but himself. He threw the coaches and his receivers under the bus and it doesn't seem that he'll be happy no matter how they use him. The guy seems incredibly sensitive to criticism and preoccupied with his stats.

He has probably some of the lowest stats throwing in the NFL since he has entered the league. I dont think Stats are on his mind... the fact they lost a game they should won was on his mind IMO.

Doesn't sound like you saw the interview, since the last game didn't come up, yet he mentioned his stats several times. Sounds like you're just speculating on what he's thinking. He commented several times on his stats under Reeves and speculated at the #s he could put up if he was in the Colts' offense, for instance. Wins/losses didn't come up...it was all about defending his reputation on a passer and speculating on what he could do in another offense or blaming others for what he hasn't done in Atlanta.

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

Some thoughts...

I have never seen Vick successfully throw a touch pass. It's either Crumpler on a slant or a deep ball that, true enough, is typically dropped by a wide open receiver.

Ditka suggested running the option 50 or 60 times per game and got laughed at by the other espn analysts. I'm not sure that running an option with Vick being able to run OR pass to a limited number of "do-able" routes (slants and posts) wouldn't result in improved performance.

Plenty of blame to go around, so trying to blame one party is a waste of time. The time is better spent changing what they currently do, because it doesn't result in repeatable success.

 

[Big Score]

Vick is not a QB, glorified RB that they let throw the ball once in awhile. They want to make the team better, let Schabb QB and Vick play a slash role, which he could be unstoppable at. He's a faster Kordella...

on the NFL network last night Faulk suggested a QBBC committee. He said that he would have Schaub split time with Vick and that he'd have special packages for Vick.

Just an FYI,Schaub has started & finished 4 games for the Falcons.The Falcons have lost every single one of Schanb's starts.

Schuab has only started 2 games, one as a rookie. The second one the Falcons scored 31 and lost. Schuab threw for over 330 yards and three TDs in that game. The other team won on the last drive.Withh all the excuse you make for Vick you surely can find an excuse as to why Schuab lost that one.

My mistake. I was forgetting that last year Vick started the Minn game & Schaub only came on in relief.Schaub has started & finished 3 games for the Falcons, all of which have been losses.13 - 26 vs Saints in 200426 - 28 vs Seahawks in 200428 - 31 vs Patriots in 2005Schaub in 2004

+----------+--------------------------+----------------+| OPP  |  CMP  ATT   PYD  TD  INT |  RSH	YD  TD |+----------+--------------------------+----------------+| nor  |   17   41   188   0   2  |	4	21   0 || sea  |   14   22   133   1   1  |	2	 7   0 |+----------+--------------------------+----------------+

Schaub in 2005

+----------+--------------------------+----------------+| OPP  |  CMP  ATT   PYD  TD  INT |  RSH	YD  TD |+----------+--------------------------+----------------+| nwe  |   18   34   298   3   0  |	2	 3   0 |

 

[Sheriff66]

Vick is not a QB, glorified RB that they let throw the ball once in awhile. They want to make the team better, let Schabb QB and Vick play a slash role, which he could be unstoppable at. He's a faster Kordella...

on the NFL network last night Faulk suggested a QBBC committee. He said that he would have Schaub split time with Vick and that he'd have special packages for Vick.

Just an FYI,Schaub has started & finished 4 games for the Falcons.The Falcons have lost every single one of Schanb's starts.

Schuab has only started 2 games, one as a rookie. The second one the Falcons scored 31 and lost. Schuab threw for over 330 yards and three TDs in that game. The other team won on the last drive.Withh all the excuse you make for Vick you surely can find an excuse as to why Schuab lost that one.

My mistake. I was forgetting that last year Vick started the Minn game & Schaub only came on in relief.Schaub has started & finished 3 games for the Falcons, all of which have been losses.13 - 26 vs Saints in 200426 - 28 vs Seahawks in 200428 - 31 vs Patriots in 2005Schaub in 2004

+----------+--------------------------+----------------+| OPP  |  CMP  ATT   PYD  TD  INT |  RSH	YD  TD |+----------+--------------------------+----------------+| nor  |   17   41   188   0   2  |	4	21   0 || sea  |   14   22   133   1   1  |	2	 7   0 |+----------+--------------------------+----------------+

Schaub in 2005

+----------+--------------------------+----------------+| OPP  |  CMP  ATT   PYD  TD  INT |  RSH	YD  TD |+----------+--------------------------+----------------+| nwe  |   18   34   298   3   0  |	2	 3   0 |

Schabb showed a lot of potential in his starts, I think we all know what Vick brings to the table by now, and it is not all that much as a QB in the passing game. Give Schabb a weapon like Vick to hand off and throw to, along with Dunn, Crumpler, White and Lelie....they would have a deadly offense.

 

[Banger]

Vick is not a QB, glorified RB that they let throw the ball once in awhile. They want to make the team better, let Schabb QB and Vick play a slash role, which he could be unstoppable at. He's a faster Kordella...

on the NFL network last night Faulk suggested a QBBC committee. He said that he would have Schaub split time with Vick and that he'd have special packages for Vick.

Just an FYI,Schaub has started & finished 4 games for the Falcons.The Falcons have lost every single one of Schanb's starts.

Schuab has only started 2 games, one as a rookie. The second one the Falcons scored 31 and lost. Schuab threw for over 330 yards and three TDs in that game. The other team won on the last drive.Withh all the excuse you make for Vick you surely can find an excuse as to why Schuab lost that one.

My mistake. I was forgetting that last year Vick started the Minn game & Schaub only came on in relief.Schaub has started & finished 3 games for the Falcons, all of which have been losses.13 - 26 vs Saints in 200426 - 28 vs Seahawks in 200428 - 31 vs Patriots in 2005Schaub in 2004

+----------+--------------------------+----------------+| OPP  |  CMP  ATT   PYD  TD  INT |  RSH	YD  TD |+----------+--------------------------+----------------+| nor  |   17   41   188   0   2  |	4	21   0 || sea  |   14   22   133   1   1  |	2	 7   0 |+----------+--------------------------+----------------+

Schaub in 2005

+----------+--------------------------+----------------+| OPP  |  CMP  ATT   PYD  TD  INT |  RSH	YD  TD |+----------+--------------------------+----------------+| nwe  |   18   34   298   3   0  |	2	 3   0 |

So does 3 starts over 3 years prove that he's worthless? He lost to the '04 Hawks (9-7) division winner, and NE (10-6) division winner by a combined 5 points. How do you know Vick would have done any better?The point, to me at least, isn't whether Schaub is a better Qb because I have no idea but I do know that Vick is not a good passer and seems to have gotten worse, not better.

 

[Da Guru]

Vick is not a QB, glorified RB that they let throw the ball once in awhile. They want to make the team better, let Schabb QB and Vick play a slash role, which he could be unstoppable at. He's a faster Kordella...

on the NFL network last night Faulk suggested a QBBC committee. He said that he would have Schaub split time with Vick and that he'd have special packages for Vick.

Just an FYI,Schaub has started & finished 4 games for the Falcons.The Falcons have lost every single one of Schanb's starts.

Schuab has only started 2 games, one as a rookie. The second one the Falcons scored 31 and lost. Schuab threw for over 330 yards and three TDs in that game. The other team won on the last drive.Withh all the excuse you make for Vick you surely can find an excuse as to why Schuab lost that one.

My mistake. I was forgetting that last year Vick started the Minn game & Schaub only came on in relief.Schaub has started & finished 3 games for the Falcons, all of which have been losses.13 - 26 vs Saints in 200426 - 28 vs Seahawks in 200428 - 31 vs Patriots in 2005Schaub in 2004

+----------+--------------------------+----------------+| OPP  |  CMP  ATT   PYD  TD  INT |  RSH	YD  TD |+----------+--------------------------+----------------+| nor  |   17   41   188   0   2  |	4	21   0 || sea  |   14   22   133   1   1  |	2	 7   0 |+----------+--------------------------+----------------+

Schaub in 2005

+----------+--------------------------+----------------+| OPP  |  CMP  ATT   PYD  TD  INT |  RSH	YD  TD |+----------+--------------------------+----------------+| nwe  |   18   34   298   3   0  |	2	 3   0 |

So does 3 starts over 3 years prove that he's worthless? He lost to the '04 Hawks (9-7) division winner, and NE (10-6) division winner by a combined 5 points. How do you know Vick would have done any better?The point, to me at least, isn't whether Schaub is a better Qb because I have no idea but I do know that Vick is not a good passer and seems to have gotten worse, not better.

Schaub put up 26 and 28 points and lost? Looks like he took care of his end.

 

[Big Score]

Vick is not a QB, glorified RB that they let throw the ball once in awhile. They want to make the team better, let Schabb QB and Vick play a slash role, which he could be unstoppable at. He's a faster Kordella...

on the NFL network last night Faulk suggested a QBBC committee. He said that he would have Schaub split time with Vick and that he'd have special packages for Vick.

Just an FYI,Schaub has started & finished 4 games for the Falcons.The Falcons have lost every single one of Schanb's starts.

Schuab has only started 2 games, one as a rookie. The second one the Falcons scored 31 and lost. Schuab threw for over 330 yards and three TDs in that game. The other team won on the last drive.Withh all the excuse you make for Vick you surely can find an excuse as to why Schuab lost that one.

My mistake. I was forgetting that last year Vick started the Minn game & Schaub only came on in relief.Schaub has started & finished 3 games for the Falcons, all of which have been losses.13 - 26 vs Saints in 200426 - 28 vs Seahawks in 200428 - 31 vs Patriots in 2005Schaub in 2004

+----------+--------------------------+----------------+| OPP  |  CMP  ATT   PYD  TD  INT |  RSH	YD  TD |+----------+--------------------------+----------------+| nor  |   17   41   188   0   2  |	4	21   0 || sea  |   14   22   133   1   1  |	2	 7   0 |+----------+--------------------------+----------------+

Schaub in 2005

+----------+--------------------------+----------------+| OPP  |  CMP  ATT   PYD  TD  INT |  RSH	YD  TD |+----------+--------------------------+----------------+| nwe  |   18   34   298   3   0  |	2	 3   0 |

So does 3 starts over 3 years prove that he's worthless? He lost to the '04 Hawks (9-7) division winner, and NE (10-6) division winner by a combined 5 points. How do you know Vick would have done any better?The point, to me at least, isn't whether Schaub is a better Qb because I have no idea but I do know that Vick is not a good passer and seems to have gotten worse, not better.

I was just pointing out that the Falcons have never won a game where Schaub was the starter.Most people who don't follow the Falcons closely, don't know that.

 

[Banger]

Vick is not a QB, glorified RB that they let throw the ball once in awhile. They want to make the team better, let Schabb QB and Vick play a slash role, which he could be unstoppable at. He's a faster Kordella...

on the NFL network last night Faulk suggested a QBBC committee. He said that he would have Schaub split time with Vick and that he'd have special packages for Vick.

Just an FYI,Schaub has started & finished 4 games for the Falcons.The Falcons have lost every single one of Schanb's starts.

Schuab has only started 2 games, one as a rookie. The second one the Falcons scored 31 and lost. Schuab threw for over 330 yards and three TDs in that game. The other team won on the last drive.Withh all the excuse you make for Vick you surely can find an excuse as to why Schuab lost that one.

My mistake. I was forgetting that last year Vick started the Minn game & Schaub only came on in relief.Schaub has started & finished 3 games for the Falcons, all of which have been losses.13 - 26 vs Saints in 200426 - 28 vs Seahawks in 200428 - 31 vs Patriots in 2005Schaub in 2004

+----------+--------------------------+----------------+| OPP  |  CMP  ATT   PYD  TD  INT |  RSH	YD  TD |+----------+--------------------------+----------------+| nor  |   17   41   188   0   2  |	4	21   0 || sea  |   14   22   133   1   1  |	2	 7   0 |+----------+--------------------------+----------------+

Schaub in 2005

+----------+--------------------------+----------------+| OPP  |  CMP  ATT   PYD  TD  INT |  RSH	YD  TD |+----------+--------------------------+----------------+| nwe  |   18   34   298   3   0  |	2	 3   0 |

So does 3 starts over 3 years prove that he's worthless? He lost to the '04 Hawks (9-7) division winner, and NE (10-6) division winner by a combined 5 points. How do you know Vick would have done any better?The point, to me at least, isn't whether Schaub is a better Qb because I have no idea but I do know that Vick is not a good passer and seems to have gotten worse, not better.

I was just pointing out that the Falcons have never won a game where Schaub was the starter.Most people who don't follow the Falcons closely, don't know that.

I hear ya. It's just that I've been in these discussions over the years and the "Vick supporter's" fall back is always that he wins. That answer has been quieted a bit recently due to his 11-10 record over the past 1 1/2 years.

 

[Big Score]

Vick is not a QB, glorified RB that they let throw the ball once in awhile. They want to make the team better, let Schabb QB and Vick play a slash role, which he could be unstoppable at. He's a faster Kordella...

on the NFL network last night Faulk suggested a QBBC committee. He said that he would have Schaub split time with Vick and that he'd have special packages for Vick.

Just an FYI,Schaub has started & finished 4 games for the Falcons.The Falcons have lost every single one of Schanb's starts.

Schuab has only started 2 games, one as a rookie. The second one the Falcons scored 31 and lost. Schuab threw for over 330 yards and three TDs in that game. The other team won on the last drive.Withh all the excuse you make for Vick you surely can find an excuse as to why Schuab lost that one.

My mistake. I was forgetting that last year Vick started the Minn game & Schaub only came on in relief.Schaub has started & finished 3 games for the Falcons, all of which have been losses.13 - 26 vs Saints in 200426 - 28 vs Seahawks in 200428 - 31 vs Patriots in 2005Schaub in 2004

+----------+--------------------------+----------------+| OPP  |  CMP  ATT   PYD  TD  INT |  RSH	YD  TD |+----------+--------------------------+----------------+| nor  |   17   41   188   0   2  |	4	21   0 || sea  |   14   22   133   1   1  |	2	 7   0 |+----------+--------------------------+----------------+

Schaub in 2005

+----------+--------------------------+----------------+| OPP  |  CMP  ATT   PYD  TD  INT |  RSH	YD  TD |+----------+--------------------------+----------------+| nwe  |   18   34   298   3   0  |	2	 3   0 |

Schabb showed a lot of potential in his starts, I think we all know what Vick brings to the table by now, and it is not all that much as a QB in the passing game. Give Schabb a weapon like Vick to hand off and throw to, along with Dunn, Crumpler, White and Lelie....they would have a deadly offense.

Changing to Schaub as the passer, is not going to suddenly cure the current case of dropsies by Crumpler, Jenkins, White & Lelie.

 

[2short13]

As far as FF goes, Vick is not a good start. With his minimal passing yardage and TD's, he has to have a good rushing yardage total and at least one TD just to catch up with the rest of the STARTING FF QB's. IMO. This almost makes him unstartable. I've started him every game this year so far (except BYE) and am in last place in QB starter points. Time for a change.

 

[Big Score]

As far as FF goes, Vick is not a good start. With his minimal passing yardage and TD's, he has to have a good rushing yardage total and at least one TD just to catch up with the rest of the STARTING FF QB's. IMO. This almost makes him unstartable. I've started him every game this year so far (except BYE) and am in last place in QB starter points. Time for a change.

I think that probably depends on your leagues scoring rules.Two leagues I'm in Vick ranks as the 9th & 10th QB and that's against some QB's who have yet to have their bye.Obviously in those leagues, Vick is a very viable start.

 

[Warpig]

if Jenkins catches that pass, the Falcons win that game.

I did not see the game, but I've heard similar things from others - specificly that the WRs were dropping a lot of catchable passes. I don't think anyone would confuse Vick's throwing ability with Palmer's or Manning's, but, for those who saw the game, do you feel that the receivers were as responsible (or more) as Vick for the struggling passing game?

Just for a point of reference, the 3 main recievers on ATL, Crumpler, Jenkins and White have combined for 6 dropped passes this year. That's not exactly a number you associate with recievers having trouble catching the ball. Of course you can't catch what isn't catchable. Vick's passing completion % is 50.4%. Only Young, Walter & Collins are lower. I think this explains the problem better than blaming the recievers.

Only 6? Didn't the Falcons have 8 dropped passes in the game against the Saints? I know Crumpler had atleast 2 or 3 himself in that one game.

I'd be willing to bet that they don't keep a close tally on dropped balls as a stat. I'd be willing to bet that that number is atleast double in reality.

 

[Big Score]

if Jenkins catches that pass, the Falcons win that game.

I did not see the game, but I've heard similar things from others - specificly that the WRs were dropping a lot of catchable passes. I don't think anyone would confuse Vick's throwing ability with Palmer's or Manning's, but, for those who saw the game, do you feel that the receivers were as responsible (or more) as Vick for the struggling passing game?

Just for a point of reference, the 3 main recievers on ATL, Crumpler, Jenkins and White have combined for 6 dropped passes this year. That's not exactly a number you associate with recievers having trouble catching the ball. Of course you can't catch what isn't catchable. Vick's passing completion % is 50.4%. Only Young, Walter & Collins are lower. I think this explains the problem better than blaming the recievers.

Only 6? Didn't the Falcons have 8 dropped passes in the game against the Saints? I know Crumpler had atleast 2 or 3 himself in that one game.

I'd be willing to bet that they don't keep a close tally on dropped balls as a stat. I'd be willing to bet that that number is atleast double in reality.

Family Matters is going off of Stats.inc, who gets their info from sports reporters.To me catchable balls are subjective anyway. I watched Troy Williamson in a game this year and by my count, he dropped 4 catchable balls that game.

Later, Stats.inc showed 2 drops by him for that game, so either the reporter they used for their info was taking a pee break or something on the other two drops, or the reporter has a very loose definition of what a dropped ball is.

 

[fightingillini]

As far as FF goes, Vick is not a good start. With his minimal passing yardage and TD's, he has to have a good rushing yardage total and at least one TD just to catch up with the rest of the STARTING FF QB's. IMO. This almost makes him unstartable. I've started him every game this year so far (except BYE) and am in last place in QB starter points. Time for a change.

Not sure if I totally agree with you.It depends on the scoring system. Vick has been solid in FF this year due to his rushing yards and rushing TDs. I get 1 pt per 25 yds passing and 1 pt per 10 yds rushing. Vick has rushed for about 400 yards in 5 games.....that equates to 1000 passing yards. Some leagues give 3 or 4 pts per passing TD and 6 pts for a rushing TD......these leagues make Vick a solid starting QB.You drafted Vick knowing he will probably pass for about 2600-2700 yards and toss 13-16 TDs. You drafted Vick since he was a virtual lock for 700+ yards rushing and 6-8 rushing TDs.....with Duckett out of the picture.I play a 2QB system, and Vick is my #2QB behing McNabb.......and I have been pleased so far, despite the fact that the Falcons have dropped 3 or 4 sure TD passes so far this season.

 

[Da Guru]

Lets bottom line it. Vick is in his 6th season. Vick still does not seem to be able to make the basic throws and looks like the same QB he was 6 years ago. It is pretty safe to say that what you see is what you get from here on in.

A NFL starter? No doubt. A upper level QB? No way.

 

[kentric]

Vick is not a QB, glorified RB that they let throw the ball once in awhile. They want to make the team better, let Schabb QB and Vick play a slash role, which he could be unstoppable at. He's a faster Kordella...

on the NFL network last night Faulk suggested a QBBC committee. He said that he would have Schaub split time with Vick and that he'd have special packages for Vick.

It is difficult to envision having any success with spliting time with two QBs. It takes time and practice to develope the proper timing with a first string unit. To have two QBs sharing time with the first string offence just wouldn't work. The most you could do would be to have a limited number of sets for one of the two QBs and those would be readily defenced against. The loss in continuity of having two QBs would more than offset the potential gain.

 

[Pedro Cerrano Fan]

I thought after the Miami Dolphins game last year Mr Mexico said we weren't allowed to question Mexico's passing skills? You guys aren't following the rules. :fingerpoint:

 

[Big Score]

Lets bottom line it. Vick is in his 6th season. Vick still does not seem to be able to make the basic throws and looks like the same QB he was 6 years ago. It is pretty safe to say that what you see is what you get from here on in.

A NFL starter? No doubt. A upper level QB? No way.

When you say he looks like the same QB from 6 years ago, I don't buy that, since he barely played his 1st year in the NFL. He didn't look like anything 6 years ago. Now if you compare Vick to how he looked in his first year starting, compared to how he looks now, I would have to say that he looks worse now.

However, as several others have already pointed out a few times in this thread, Vick is working in different offenses form then, to now.

IIRC Steve Young said it takes about 3 years to get in sync / comfortable with the WCO for QB's. Considering that 2003 was a wasted year for Vick with his broken leg, this year is only his 3rd year in it.

Vick does need to improve on his touch passes though. Out of every 10 touch passes he throws, it seems like 4 will be good & 6 will be just flat out awful. :X

 

[juveduke]

Vick is not a QB, glorified RB that they let throw the ball once in awhile. They want to make the team better, let Schabb QB and Vick play a slash role, which he could be unstoppable at. He's a faster Kordella...

on the NFL network last night Faulk suggested a QBBC committee. He said that he would have Schaub split time with Vick and that he'd have special packages for Vick.

It is difficult to envision having any success with spliting time with two QBs. It takes time and practice to develope the proper timing with a first string unit. To have two QBs sharing time with the first string offence just wouldn't work. The most you could do would be to have a limited number of sets for one of the two QBs and those would be readily defenced against. The loss in continuity of having two QBs would more than offset the potential gain.

I agree with this. But it would be cool to have some "gadget" plays every now and thenwith both QBs in. Maybe some reverses with Schaub taking the snap. Unfortunately, Knapp has the creativity of a mongoose.

 

[Sheriff66]

Vick is not a QB, glorified RB that they let throw the ball once in awhile. They want to make the team better, let Schabb QB and Vick play a slash role, which he could be unstoppable at. He's a faster Kordella...

on the NFL network last night Faulk suggested a QBBC committee. He said that he would have Schaub split time with Vick and that he'd have special packages for Vick.

Just an FYI,Schaub has started & finished 4 games for the Falcons.The Falcons have lost every single one of Schanb's starts.

Schuab has only started 2 games, one as a rookie. The second one the Falcons scored 31 and lost. Schuab threw for over 330 yards and three TDs in that game. The other team won on the last drive.Withh all the excuse you make for Vick you surely can find an excuse as to why Schuab lost that one.

My mistake. I was forgetting that last year Vick started the Minn game & Schaub only came on in relief.Schaub has started & finished 3 games for the Falcons, all of which have been losses.13 - 26 vs Saints in 200426 - 28 vs Seahawks in 200428 - 31 vs Patriots in 2005Schaub in 2004

+----------+--------------------------+----------------+| OPP  |  CMP  ATT   PYD  TD  INT |  RSH	YD  TD |+----------+--------------------------+----------------+| nor  |   17   41   188   0   2  |	4	21   0 || sea  |   14   22   133   1   1  |	2	 7   0 |+----------+--------------------------+----------------+

Schaub in 2005

+----------+--------------------------+----------------+| OPP  |  CMP  ATT   PYD  TD  INT |  RSH	YD  TD |+----------+--------------------------+----------------+| nwe  |   18   34   298   3   0  |	2	 3   0 |

Schabb showed a lot of potential in his starts, I think we all know what Vick brings to the table by now, and it is not all that much as a QB in the passing game. Give Schabb a weapon like Vick to hand off and throw to, along with Dunn, Crumpler, White and Lelie....they would have a deadly offense.

Changing to Schaub as the passer, is not going to suddenly cure the current case of dropsies by Crumpler, Jenkins, White & Lelie.

Schabb can actually put some touch on his passes instead of throwing only darts, makes a BIG difference, and like it was said earlier only 6 drops for the team.

 

[Big Score]

Vick is not a QB, glorified RB that they let throw the ball once in awhile. They want to make the team better, let Schabb QB and Vick play a slash role, which he could be unstoppable at. He's a faster Kordella...

on the NFL network last night Faulk suggested a QBBC committee. He said that he would have Schaub split time with Vick and that he'd have special packages for Vick.

Just an FYI,Schaub has started & finished 4 games for the Falcons.The Falcons have lost every single one of Schanb's starts.

Schuab has only started 2 games, one as a rookie. The second one the Falcons scored 31 and lost. Schuab threw for over 330 yards and three TDs in that game. The other team won on the last drive.Withh all the excuse you make for Vick you surely can find an excuse as to why Schuab lost that one.

My mistake. I was forgetting that last year Vick started the Minn game & Schaub only came on in relief.Schaub has started & finished 3 games for the Falcons, all of which have been losses.13 - 26 vs Saints in 200426 - 28 vs Seahawks in 200428 - 31 vs Patriots in 2005Schaub in 2004

+----------+--------------------------+----------------+| OPP  |  CMP  ATT   PYD  TD  INT |  RSH	YD  TD |+----------+--------------------------+----------------+| nor  |   17   41   188   0   2  |	4	21   0 || sea  |   14   22   133   1   1  |	2	 7   0 |+----------+--------------------------+----------------+

Schaub in 2005

+----------+--------------------------+----------------+| OPP  |  CMP  ATT   PYD  TD  INT |  RSH	YD  TD |+----------+--------------------------+----------------+| nwe  |   18   34   298   3   0  |	2	 3   0 |

Schabb showed a lot of potential in his starts, I think we all know what Vick brings to the table by now, and it is not all that much as a QB in the passing game. Give Schabb a weapon like Vick to hand off and throw to, along with Dunn, Crumpler, White and Lelie....they would have a deadly offense.

Changing to Schaub as the passer, is not going to suddenly cure the current case of dropsies by Crumpler, Jenkins, White & Lelie.

Schabb can actually put some touch on his passes instead of throwing only darts, makes a BIG difference, and like it was said earlier only 6 drops for the team.

The problem is that not only are the short touch passes being dropped, but any & all passes are being dropped. Changing to Schaub will not cure that Sheriff66.Also, the only person saying that there have only been 6 drops by the Falcons WR's & TE's, is Family Matters and he is only going off of Stats.inc, instead of what he's actually seen in the games.If you read this thread, you'll see that multiple posters who have watched the Falcons games this year, counted far more drops than 6, in the Saints game alone and they're not even talking about all the drops in the Panthers, Bucs, Cards & Giants games.

 

[Tau837]

I think different posters here are arguing different things. I don't think anyone defending Vick has suggested that he is or even could be a great passer. If he could be an average passer, combining that with his running ability would make him an above average QB. Since Mora arrived, he has not been an average passer, thus he has not been an above average QB.

But, as I posted earlier, there are many factors that go into how good of a passer any QB is. One is natural passing ability, and I think everyone is probably in agreement here that Vick is not a great natural passer. But other factors include the offensive scheme, the coaching, and the surrounding offensive talent. Unfortunately for Vick, none of those factors are helping him, they are hurting him. He would be a better passer with better coaching and/or in offense that fits his talents (which the WCO does not) and/or if he had better offensive teammates, in particular at the WR position.

Does that make it everyone else's fault? Not entirely. Ultimately, it is Vick's "fault" that he isn't a better natural passer. But as an organization committed to Vick, it is Atlanta's responsibility to recognize his limitations and do what they can to lift him up, rather than drag him down... namely put him in an appropriate offense, give him good WRs, and give him better coaching.

Those things are outside of Vick's control, they are in the organization's control. In year 2 under Reeves, Vick looked great, especially in the second half of the season, which was his first as a starter. And consider that everyone knew Vick would be somewhat raw at the start of his NFL career, considering he started only 2 seasons in college and was able to dominate in college without being a great passer, being great at reading defenses, etc. Considering that, he really looked good in 2002. His potential was unlimited at that point.

I have posted this before, but let's actually look at his performance in 2002.

First half of the season (Vick missed ~1.5 games):

96/159 (60.4%), 1095 passing yards (6.88 ypa), 4 passing TDs, 1 interception

48/362/4 rushing

That is 168 passing yards, 0.6 TDs, and less than 0.2 interceptions per game

Second half of the season (8 games):

135/262 (51.5%), 1841 passing yards (7.03 ypa), 12 passing TDs, 7 interceptions

65/414/4 rushing

That's 230 passing yards, 1.5 TDs, and less than 1 interception per game. While maintaining his rushing from the first half. He regressed a bit from an efficiency standpoint compared to the first half of 2002, but got more done. I assume Reeves had him on a pretty conservative leash to start the season but gained confidence and opened things up.

Over the course of 15 games, since Vick has never played 16, that second half would be 3450 passing yards, 22 passing TDs, and 15 interceptions. Combine that with his rushing ability and the effect he has on the defense, and he would clearly be one of the top handful of QBs in the NFL. Is projecting 8 games a foolproof method? Of course not, but it illustrates his potential as a passer and QB.

So a valid question is: why did he not build on the performance in that season and get better, or at least maintain that level of play? Was it due to his injury the next season? Was 2002 a fluke, and he just played over his head?

He is now in year 3 of the Mora regime and has clearly regressed from year 2. So why isn't the organization asking itself, what has changed, why has he regressed, and what can/should we do about it? He is the same guy with the same skills, and in fact has more game experience and thus should be improving, even if at a slow pace. So the organization shares in the "blame".