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Farmers protests (1 Viewer)

NorvilleBarnes

NorvilleBarnes

Footballguy
Farmers across Europe are protesting shut downs as result of WEF "green" initiatives. Not exactly an American problem (yet) but still political so I thought it belonged in this forum.

Thoughts?

 
I know nothing about this. Happy to read links from reputable sites with minimal bias. 

I doubt our farmers will protest the government since we give out so many subsidies to them. You never know though, strange things have been happening for like a decade now.

 
There are currently protests in Netherlands, Poland and Italy. Netherlands is the most active in Europe with farmers blocking roads and building with equipment, manure and burning hay bails. Poland and Italy are more traditional marching protests so far but if their markets get as bare as Netherlands, that could change very quickly. 

https://freedomrockradio.co/news/we-are-not-slaves-we-are-farmers-polish-and-italian-farmers-rise-up-against-government-elites-destroying-their-family-businesses/

Sri Lanka is also seeing an uprising due to food shortages. They are much further along in the dystopian future level. The government has armed military guarding gas stations and people are only allowed to get fuel certain days and only a permissible amount. 

https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/29/asia/sri-lanka-fuel-shortage-impossible-situation-intl-hnk/index.html

 
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https://www.freshfruitportal.com/news/2022/07/05/dutch-farmers-protest-against-government-plans/
 

“Dutch farmers angry at government plans to cut emissions used tractors and trucks to block roads and supermarket distribution centers across the country on Monday.

The unrest among Dutch farmers was triggered by a government proposal to slash emissions of pollutants like nitrogen oxide and ammonia by 50% by 2030, giving provincial governments a year to formulate plans to achieve the goal.

A group of farmers in the province of North Holland held talks with two senior officials in the city of Haarlem, according to a report by 69 WFMZ.

“Their concerns are understood and have our absolute attention. Good to be and stay in conversation with each other,” tweeted one of the officials, Arthur van Dijk.

The reforms are expected to include reducing livestock and buying up some farms whose animals produce large amounts of ammonia. Farmers argue they are being unfairly targeted and are being given no perspective for their future.  “

 
Climate change legislation where it needs to happen isn't happening -- China, India, the United States, and Russia are the top four carbon dioxide culprits in the world by tons of CO2 produced. 

Climate change legislation where it seems more likely to pass is more like overkill and almost punitive in nature, IMO. Looking at Europe especially, but not Germany. 

That's why you're seeing these protests. If legislation like this ever comes to the U.S., watch the civil unrest unfold. It'll be like Clare Boothe Luce once warned, and this is paraphrased, "You can't have environmentalism without totalitarianism in some form or another." And she thought we needed environmentalism to a degree (this was from a Firing Line in or around '72 or so). 

She was very prescient. She saw that private property would be redistributed in the name of the environment and that state apparatuses would be the method by which that happened. 

Our urgent task and job is to figure out how to make that transition voluntary and with the least pain possible. That's a very tall order for a society built on ramshackle, private dynamism like ours, especially with diets like ours. 

I'm glad I'll be very old when it happens. 

But climate change seems not to be waiting for us to figure out how to adapt our economic systems. Its deleterious effects may happen even before I get old. It certainly ain't waiting for nobody. 

 
rockaction said:
Climate change legislation where it needs to happen isn't happening -- China, India, the United States, and Russia are the top four carbon dioxide culprits in the world by tons of CO2 produced. 

Climate change legislation where it seems more likely to pass is more like overkill and almost punitive in nature, IMO. Looking at Europe especially, but not Germany. 

That's why you're seeing these protests. If legislation like this ever comes to the U.S., watch the civil unrest unfold. It'll be like Clare Boothe Luce once warned, and this is paraphrased, "You can't have environmentalism without totalitarianism in some form or another." And she thought we needed environmentalism to a degree (this was from a Firing Line in or around '72 or so). 

She was very prescient. She saw that private property would be redistributed in the name of the environment and that state apparatuses would be the method by which that happened. 

Our urgent task and job is to figure out how to make that transition voluntary and with the least pain possible. That's a very tall order for a society built on ramshackle, private dynamism like ours, especially with diets like ours. 

I'm glad I'll be very old when it happens. 

But climate change seems not to be waiting for us to figure out how to adapt our economic systems. Its deleterious effects may happen even before I get old. It certainly ain't waiting for nobody. 
Click to expand...
No one needs totalitarianism to address climate change.

Simply put a price on a carbon equal to its deleterious effects and the markets will figure out the rest.

 
Stoneworker said:
No one needs totalitarianism to address climate change.

Simply put a price on a carbon equal to its deleterious effects and the markets will figure out the rest.
Click to expand...
That will cause massive shifts in the economic structure stemming from an externally-determined price, no? 

That strikes me as a move to interfere with markets so much that it borders on the totalitarian. It interferes with the microeconomic market price of emissions, which is basically zero. Any price is an external restraint that smacks of command economy. A price on carbon might allocate resources more efficiently than land grabs, but the result will be similar. You'll see entering and exiting industries to the market and winners and losers in the market, just the same as with land grabs. The pain might be more gradual, but the skeleton of totalitarianism is there. It will all be determined solely by an external guess about the price of carbon dioxide. 

 
I'm not arguing for or against. The true price of emissions has to be dealt with somehow. The question is whether we see it for what it is, which is involuntary action or non-action by economic agents that produce carbon. That's a collective action and takes steps bordering on totalitarian economics. 

 
rockaction said:
That will cause massive shifts in the economic structure stemming from an externally-determined price, no? 

That strikes me as a move to interfere with markets so much that it borders on the totalitarian. It interferes with the microeconomic market price of emissions, which is basically zero. Any price is an external restraint that smacks of command economy. A price on carbon might allocate resources more efficiently than land grabs, but the result will be similar. You'll see entering and exiting industries to the market and winners and losers in the market, just the same as with land grabs. The pain might be more gradual, but the skeleton of totalitarianism is there. It will all be determined solely by an external guess about the price of carbon dioxide. 
Click to expand...
Yes. It will cause shifts. But massive shifts in our economic structure from emissions are inevitable. It's simply the timing and magnitude of those shifts.

So either pay me a lower cost now for preventive measures...by internalizing the externality into the market price...or a higher cost later...in terms of mitigation and adaptation for the inevitable deleterious effects.

I don't view it as market interference at all...no different than factoring in the price of recycling into certain products, etc.

The choice is yours: pay me now, or pay me later

 
rockaction said:
I'm not arguing for or against. The true price of emissions has to be dealt with somehow. The question is whether we see it for what it is, which is involuntary action or non-action by economic agents that produce carbon. That's a collective action and takes steps bordering on totalitarian economics. 
Click to expand...
Also, this happens literally every day in the world of financial and cost accounting. Rules come down from a governing authority changing how to account for things and all market participants adjust. It's just the magnitude of this issue that it gets so much attention.

 
rockaction said:
I'm not arguing for or against. The true price of emissions has to be dealt with somehow. The question is whether we see it for what it is, which is involuntary action or non-action by economic agents that produce carbon. That's a collective action and takes steps bordering on totalitarian economics. 
Click to expand...
Personally, I don’t ever see global emissions getting regulated in my lifetime.  We’ll never see until Russia, China or India buying in.  Specifically, China and India are building hundreds of coal fired power plants annually.   

 
Stoneworker said:
Also, this happens literally every day in the world of financial and cost accounting. Rules come down from a governing authority changing how to account for things and all market participants adjust. It's just the magnitude of this issue that it gets so much attention.
Click to expand...
Right, you'll hardly catch me arguing that regulation and its costs are new. This specific instance just seems so drastic and all-encompassing as to address a totality of things, IMO. And in some cases will be so punitive that its enforcement mechanisms will look totalitarian in nature. 

 
rockaction said:
Right, you'll hardly catch me arguing that regulation and its costs are new. This specific instance just seems so drastic and all-encompassing as to address a totality of things, IMO. And in some cases will be so punitive that its enforcement mechanisms will look totalitarian in nature. 
Click to expand...
I think you've hit on the key word. Since virtually all industries and geographies would be affected, it almost by definition becomes a political issue.

Which means that it will never happen through existing democratic processes either here or globally since we can't agree on squat.

Therefore to your point a totalitarian approach may be the only route to implementing an effective regulatory solution...but of course comes with it potentially worse unintended(?) consequences.

 
So, what I read said these protests are about nitrogen emissions and something to do with certain livestock that produces large amounts of ammonia. And that these changes will straight up put some farmers out of business.

I'm not an expert on the impacts of nitrogen emissions. At all. I guess that's the next reading I'll do.

So, at the moment I have no insight on if the policy is merited or not. I need to get smarter on that. But I will say this... If a government puts out a mandate that is going to completely gut an industry, it ought to create a mechanism that facilitates those impacted to pivot to something else. Sometimes things need to change (again, no clue if this is one of those things), and that's okay if it does. But you can't just hang people out to dry with the changes, that's just crummy government.

 
Food shortages are coming... this winter may well get interesting here in the US.  

Our household goal is 4 months (500k calories) of reserves in place by the end of august. Currently approaching 3. 

Not anticipating bread lines but not ruling stuff like that out either.

 
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I just drove through Utah and Colorado.  You can't find a farm without a shiny new $2+ million dollar house on it.  Yet it's the most heavily government subsidized groups in the country, who is also allotted 90% of the water rations in most states currently in drought while city residents bare the brunt of 100% of the water restrictions for the 10% of the water we consume.

I understand a lot of it is necessary, but I always found it interesting that the crowd that cries over the occasional food stamp purchased steak while farmers rake in insane subsidies to put into a business that is already reaping enough profit to built them a multi million dollar mansion.

 
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(HULK) said:
So, at the moment I have no insight on if the policy is merited or not. I need to get smarter on that. But I will say this... If a government puts out a mandate that is going to completely gut an industry, it ought to create a mechanism that facilitates those impacted to pivot to something else. Sometimes things need to change (again, no clue if this is one of those things), and that's okay if it does. But you can't just hang people out to dry with the changes, that's just crummy government.
Click to expand...


They almost always do this.  The problem is most people just sit on the money rather than using it to actually pivot.  There was a story recently about the surprisingly crappy town of Orick, CA.  Surprising because it's a gateway town for a national park, and those places usually do pretty well.  What happened is it was a big lumber area, but when it became a National Park it really put a hurting on the lumber industry in the area (for obvious reasons).  Turns out the government gave everyone in the industry good sized subsidies and funded a bunch of re-training programs to place them in new jobs, but they pissed it away sitting on their porch drinking beer and the town just kind of died in their laziness.

It's like the anti-Hidden Figures story. 

 
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FreeBaGeL said:
I just drove through Utah and Colorado.  You can't find a farm without a shiny new $2+ million dollar house on it.  Yet it's the most heavily government subsidized groups in the country, who is also allotted 90% of the water rations in most states currently in drought while city residents bare the brunt of 100% of the water restrictions for the 10% of the water we consume.

I understand a lot of it is necessary, but I always found it interesting that the crowd that cries over the occasional food stamp purchased steak while farmers rake in insane subsidies to put into a business that is already reaping enough profit to built them a multi million dollar mansion.
Click to expand...
Don’t forget the line up of John Deere tractors/combines and CAT skid steers that are all max 3 years old that cost minimum $100k each. And all trucks on the farm are Denali/High Country trim level…

 
[icon] said:
Food shortages are coming... this winter may well get interesting here in the US.  

Our household goal is 4 months (500k calories) of reserves in place by the end of august. Currently approaching 3. 

Not anticipating bread lines but not ruling stuff like that out either.
Click to expand...


Over a decade ago, in the FFA, there was a "retirement" thread. I don't talk too much about finance here in the forums, I have do that crap all day in real life for business. But I did say everyone with kids should have a 6 month reserve of food for emergency and a means collect and to process water ( rain catchment, a Sawyer Mini, etc, etc)  Of course I was immediately attacked. 

I mentioned years and years ago that I got into bee keeping and that the value of honey is extremely potent in a post collapse type of community/new normal. Again, I was immediately swarmed here and attacked.

Usually a litmus test if asking someone if a collapse happened, and they could get into a grocery store for 12 hours before anyone else in the world knew about it, what would they buy and stockpile. The answers would say quite a bit about the mindset and the ability to project practical necessity with a loss of total government infrastructure and social services.

I have a top level thread topic on diesel production and shortages here in the US and around the world. I get that it's not that interesting to most people, but the red flags in general are glaring.

When I was homeless as a teenager, I ate pigeon. They aren't particularly hard to snare. I don't think many people here understand what it means to starve. Or to not know where their next meal or ten meals are coming from and if that will change. Self reliance is a form of dynamic proactive consideration of eventual scarcity. The majority of people have lost that instinct.

Every one of my businesses and their locations have been reset as potential safe zones for my employees and their children. I've made a lot of money in this life, I've spent an ungodly amount of money as well in this life. It's just paper and digits on a screen in a free fall, most people don't get that. The weight of obligation is, at times, unbearable. All most men need is an hour a day of just calm. Of peace. That's what was robbed of us [icon], that small measure of peace by these idiot politicians. I did my duty in this life, I should be able to retire in peace in my old age. And here we are again, once more into the fray.

From one shooter to another, good luck to you in the wars to come.

 
This is a real problem, and I have no idea how to fix it. We have to deal with climate change. But it is very apparent to me that punitive measures will not succeed. Nobody is going to agree to such sacrifices. 
But I don’t know what the alternative is. 

 
timschochet said:
This is a real problem, and I have no idea how to fix it. We have to deal with climate change. But it is very apparent to me that punitive measures will not succeed. Nobody is going to agree to such sacrifices. 
But I don’t know what the alternative is. 
Click to expand...
Make better products and improve existing ones. Make current processes more efficient. Build more nuclear plants to replace coal ones. That's how we got to this point. People invent newer, better ways to do things and eventually that over takes the previous option in the market as well.

Forcing things through government mandates rarely works because the people are resistant and it usually costs way more to do in resources and unexpected consequences ( like food shortages and power outages). 

 
(HULK) said:
I know nothing about this. Happy to read links from reputable sites with minimal bias. 

I doubt our farmers will protest the government since we give out so many subsidies to them. You never know though, strange things have been happening for like a decade now.
Click to expand...
Try shutting down the 30% farms.   What are they gonna subsidize?    

You know what we have to much of? food.   That should stop global warning.

 
timschochet said:
This is a real problem, and I have no idea how to fix it. We have to deal with climate change. But it is very apparent to me that punitive measures will not succeed. Nobody is going to agree to such sacrifices. 
But I don’t know what the alternative is. 
Click to expand...
You know what a real problem is?  People, we need to cut the amount of people by half.    You know what is good at killing people?   War.     Except China India and Russia won't be in that War.

 
quick-hands said:
You know what a real problem is?  People, we need to cut the amount of people by half.    You know what is good at killing people?   War.     Except China India and Russia won't be in that War.
Click to expand...
A "pandemic" does a pretty good job of helping with that as well.

 
Transitioning to greener energy needs to be a process and not an event. The Progressive left doesn't understand that.

We need to be maximizing our use of domestic oil and natural gas right now. The current Democratic party sold out to the hard left and it's going to cost them at the ballot boxes

 
quick-hands said:
You know what a real problem is?  People, we need to cut the amount of people by half.    You know what is good at killing people?   War.     Except China India and Russia won't be in that War.
Click to expand...


snellman said:
A "pandemic" does a pretty good job of helping with that as well.
Click to expand...


Socialism has also done a pretty good job of culling the herd.  Roughly 100+ million in the 20th century alone.

 
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