Fasting to lose weight - Dr Jason Fung (1 Viewer)

[The Z Machine]

Michael Pollan isn’t a scientist, but a really effective writer and investigative journalist imo

He's also a blowhard egotistical prick.

 

[Terminalxylem]

Michael Pollan isn’t a scientist, but a really effective writer and investigative journalist imo

He's also a blowhard egotistical prick.

I don’t know him, but even if he’s a jerk, that doesn’t change my opinion of his ability to translate the science of nutrition into easily applicable advice.

 

[massraider]

No worries - I'm not religious about this stuff (to follow on your word) - would enjoy your perspective and I'm sure others would too. I think to expand on my viewpoint further - and I've done this before - Keto and other diets, including Veganism get bad raps because of they way people implement them.

You can have unhealthy Vegans and very healthy Keto people. My stance is we have a lot in common on what we all know is bad. After that the religious war just distracts from people getting somewhat healthy. Do what works for you and you can stick with.

But please, I'm now curious your thoughts - if that means a DM then please share if you are so inclined.

I actually think this post of yours is right on:

I’m sold on vegetables but for what it’s worth I think some fruits are oversold - berries are good but if you are getting vitamins and fiber there’s no compelling reason to eat bananas and grapes (for example).

I think diet zealots are just that - zealots. But there’s very few people who eat real foods all the time and exercise that aren’t moderately healthy (ignoring genetics). That can be eating meat, nuts, eggs, veggies, fish, fruits, etc. You can take those items and have a Vegan diet or Mediterranean or Carnivore. I’m much more concerned with eliminating sugar and processed foods.

But you can’t have my beer - yet.

My thing about diets that are designed to lose weight is that the focus is on losing weight, not being healthy. Forget about if a diet is sustainable long term. If a person isn't getting all their nutrients from real food, they are at risk. Whether they are skinny or not.

Focusing on gut health will rarely steer someone wrong. Americans' plumbing is in a sorry state. Quick side note of what I am talking about: Everyday, Americans put a salad dressing on their salad, which uses emulsifiers. Let's say for argument this is a "healthy" dressing otherwise. The job of emulsifiers is to break down cells, so that vinegar and oil can mix. Well, emulsifiers don't stop being emulsifiers when they are swallowed, so they continue to break down stuff in your gut, like the good mucus that lines our intestine, and keeps that stuff we would rather flush in a toilet from leaking into our body. Emulsifiers effect on the microbiome When people were wondering about the 'worms' left in the toilet after taking Ivermectin? Yeah, that was their gut mucus, and that was really really really not good.

Wide variety of fibrous vegetables as the main source of food. Avoiding processed foods. Animal protein? I love it, but where are your proteins from? Was your chicken genetically raised to be larger, and stuffed with antibiotics from a corporate farm? First, those chickens have no flavor. Second, we eat what they eat. Watch a few videos from those megafarms, and that will cure you of supermarket chicken. I eat beef and lamb and chicken and tuna and salmon and venison, and I know where they come from and how they were fed. I eat pretty small portions of protein, especially compared to what I used to eat. I love steakhouses, but geez Louise you have to be careful. "Food coma" is your body screaming out in a cry for help.

 

[Juxtatarot]

@AAABatteries I don’t get this dismissive grape and banana position. They seem like fantastic things to eat to me.

 

[AAABatteries]

@AAABatteries I don’t get this dismissive grape and banana position. They seem like fantastic things to eat to me.

Sorry if it sounded dismissive, it wasn’t meant to be - I’m just saying they aren’t necessary if you are getting sufficient fiber and vitamins. Further, I guess I’m trying to illustrate that and diet lifestyle or way of eating can be bad if you aren’t careful. There’s nothing preventing a Keto guy from eating a package of bacon and there nothing from keeping a Vegan from eating a box of Twinkies (assuming they are Vegan) and 5 bananas. Neither of those people are going to be healthy as massraider points out. I just picked on those two top of head.

Ultimately I land on there being several ways to skin the cat but for most obese people they just aren’t going to start eating clean. I see Keto as kind of a gateway to better eating for these folks. If they can just eliminate most sugar and processed foods they will be making a huge difference for themselves even if they are still eating animal protein or some fats.

 

[acarey50]

@AAABatteries I don’t get this dismissive grape and banana position. They seem like fantastic things to eat to me.

Sorry if it sounded dismissive, it wasn’t meant to be - I’m just saying they aren’t necessary if you are getting sufficient fiber and vitamins. Further, I guess I’m trying to illustrate that and diet lifestyle or way of eating can be bad if you aren’t careful. There’s nothing preventing a Keto guy from eating a package of bacon and there nothing from keeping a Vegan from eating a box of Twinkies (assuming they are Vegan) and 5 bananas. Neither of those people are going to be healthy as massraider points out. I just picked on those two top of head.

Ultimately I land on there being several ways to skin the cat but for most obese people they just aren’t going to start eating clean. I see Keto as kind of a gateway to better eating for these folks. If they can just eliminate most sugar and processed foods they will be making a huge difference for themselves even if they are still eating animal protein or some fats.

I'd take that a step further and simply state that no food is "necessary". Moderation is the key.

 

[AAABatteries]

@AAABatteries I don’t get this dismissive grape and banana position. They seem like fantastic things to eat to me.

Sorry if it sounded dismissive, it wasn’t meant to be - I’m just saying they aren’t necessary if you are getting sufficient fiber and vitamins. Further, I guess I’m trying to illustrate that and diet lifestyle or way of eating can be bad if you aren’t careful. There’s nothing preventing a Keto guy from eating a package of bacon and there nothing from keeping a Vegan from eating a box of Twinkies (assuming they are Vegan) and 5 bananas. Neither of those people are going to be healthy as massraider points out. I just picked on those two top of head.

Ultimately I land on there being several ways to skin the cat but for most obese people they just aren’t going to start eating clean. I see Keto as kind of a gateway to better eating for these folks. If they can just eliminate most sugar and processed foods they will be making a huge difference for themselves even if they are still eating animal protein or some fats.

I'd take that a step further and simply state that no food is "necessary". Moderation is the key.

Agree - and health isn’t a perfect thing. I think we all know donuts and beer and candy bars aren’t good. But once in a while is fine.

Also, there’s diminishingly returns. Let’s say you told me I could eat Vegan and live to 90 or Mediterranean- 87 or Keto - 85 or SAD - 70. Well, I’d probably pick Mediterranean but maybe Keto. I’m not going to “suffer” eating Vegan for 50 years to add 3 years in my late 80’s.

 

[belljr]

i had a small roll with my salad today.

I feel dirty

 

[Terminalxylem]

@AAABatteries I don’t get this dismissive grape and banana position. They seem like fantastic things to eat to me.

Sorry if it sounded dismissive, it wasn’t meant to be - I’m just saying they aren’t necessary if you are getting sufficient fiber and vitamins. Further, I guess I’m trying to illustrate that and diet lifestyle or way of eating can be bad if you aren’t careful. There’s nothing preventing a Keto guy from eating a package of bacon and there nothing from keeping a Vegan from eating a box of Twinkies (assuming they are Vegan) and 5 bananas. Neither of those people are going to be healthy as massraider points out. I just picked on those two top of head.

Ultimately I land on there being several ways to skin the cat but for most obese people they just aren’t going to start eating clean. I see Keto as kind of a gateway to better eating for these folks. If they can just eliminate most sugar and processed foods they will be making a huge difference for themselves even if they are still eating animal protein or some fats.

I'd take that a step further and simply state that no food is "necessary". Moderation is the key.

Agree - and health isn’t a perfect thing. I think we all know donuts and beer and candy bars aren’t good. But once in a while is fine.

Also, there’s diminishingly returns. Let’s say you told me I could eat Vegan and live to 90 or Mediterranean- 87 or Keto - 85 or SAD - 70. Well, I’d probably pick Mediterranean but maybe Keto. I’m not going to “suffer” eating Vegan for 50 years to add 3 years in my late 80’s.

I think people overestimate how much suffering their future selves are willing to endure, and the difficulty giving up certain foods/beverages. While it’s never so simple, I‘ve not met someone raving about hamburgers on their death bed, nor an old vegan lamenting all the bacon they’ve missed. On the contrary, I seen a ton of people literally begging for their lives, and those of their moribund loved ones. That’s probably more commentary on how we deal with dying than diet, but my point remains.

As someone who has modified their diet a lot over the years, surely you realize the palate is extremely adaptable? Unfortunately, most people never take advantage of that malleability to optimize health. But the vast majority are fully aware of what it takes to acquire a taste - look no further than beer. Cultural norms and peer pressure make most people endure that swill, to the point they actually love it. Same goes for many of the “finer things”.

By making “bad“ dietary choices, you‘re not only shortening lifespan, but also quality of life. Living with diseases of obesity sucks. Although many are insidious, once diabetes, gout, vascular disease, sleep apnea, etc. are in full bloom, the last 10+ years of live are gonna be a lot less enjoyable. We’re all gonna suffer in the end, to some extent, but I’d rather minimize the duration to the best of my ability. Of course there are no guarantees, as we all know a marathoner who’s dropped dead of a heart attack, or octogenarian who’s lives like a rock star. Nonetheless, I’d rather take my chances doing the “right” things.

I fully realize nutrition is an inexact science, with a lot of conflicting information, and there is more than one way to skin a kitty. This makes it difficult to get too dogmatic on the subject. But I don’t believe the basic principals of healthy eating need to be complicated, nor are they very controversial.

 

[massraider]

People fool themselves with sugar.

Sugar in fruit is still sugar. Your body and brain still reacts to natural sugars. Drinking a glass of orange juice? 21 grams of sugar.

That will still trigger the cravings that make people overeat, fall off the wagon, whatever. You have to get off it like a drug.

 

[Juxtatarot]

People fool themselves with sugar.

Sugar in fruit is still sugar. Your body and brain still reacts to natural sugars. Drinking a glass of orange juice? 21 grams of sugar.

That will still trigger the cravings that make people overeat, fall off the wagon, whatever. You have to get off it like a drug.

Juice does not equal fruit though.

 

[TripItUp]

Also, there’s diminishingly returns. Let’s say you told me I could eat Vegan and live to 90 or Mediterranean- 87 or Keto - 85 or SAD - 70. Well, I’d probably pick Mediterranean but maybe Keto. I’m not going to “suffer” eating Vegan for 50 years to add 3 years in my late 80’s.

This is a great point. Never eating a donut again in hopes of extending your life 5 years doesn't make much sense to me. I'm okay dying at 85 instead of 90.

 

[Schmeabs]

Every time I see this thread I read it as "Farting to lose weight." If it were only that easy.

 

[Terminalxylem]

Also, there’s diminishingly returns. Let’s say you told me I could eat Vegan and live to 90 or Mediterranean- 87 or Keto - 85 or SAD - 70. Well, I’d probably pick Mediterranean but maybe Keto. I’m not going to “suffer” eating Vegan for 50 years to add 3 years in my late 80’s.

This is a great point. Never eating a donut again in hopes of extending your life 5 years doesn't make much sense to me. I'm okay dying at 85 instead of 90.

Really??? I love sweets, but I’d gladly toss them all aside for 5 quality years of life.

Also, life expectancy for males in the US is 73. Based on your demographics alone, you’ll probably live longer, but I wouldn’t count on 85.

 

[AAABatteries]

Also, there’s diminishingly returns. Let’s say you told me I could eat Vegan and live to 90 or Mediterranean- 87 or Keto - 85 or SAD - 70. Well, I’d probably pick Mediterranean but maybe Keto. I’m not going to “suffer” eating Vegan for 50 years to add 3 years in my late 80’s.

This is a great point. Never eating a donut again in hopes of extending your life 5 years doesn't make much sense to me. I'm okay dying at 85 instead of 90.

Really??? I love sweets, but I’d gladly toss them all aside for 5 quality years of life.

Also, life expectancy for males in the US is 73. Based on your demographics alone, you’ll probably live longer, but I wouldn’t count on 85.

I’m with you on sweets but the overall point (for me) is there’s trade offs - all things being equal I’m assuming we could mathematically show how your rock climbing reduces your life expectancy. Could be 2 days so a horrible example but it’s still a trade off. Back to the sweets - at some point in there there is a tipping point - maybe a dessert a week means 2 months shorter life. That’s worth it to many.

 

[massraider]

This is a great point. Never eating a donut again in hopes of extending your life 5 years doesn't make much sense to me. I'm okay dying at 85 instead of 90.

That's not the math. If the math was this equation you just made up in your head, I would agree with you. There's a staggering number of issues related to eating like an American.

This thread seems to be people looking to lose weight, tho, so I'll keep focus on them. It is hard enough to be healthy when you want to be, let alone trying to convince someone who doesn't.

 

[Terminalxylem]

Also, there’s diminishingly returns. Let’s say you told me I could eat Vegan and live to 90 or Mediterranean- 87 or Keto - 85 or SAD - 70. Well, I’d probably pick Mediterranean but maybe Keto. I’m not going to “suffer” eating Vegan for 50 years to add 3 years in my late 80’s.

This is a great point. Never eating a donut again in hopes of extending your life 5 years doesn't make much sense to me. I'm okay dying at 85 instead of 90.

Really??? I love sweets, but I’d gladly toss them all aside for 5 quality years of life.

Also, life expectancy for males in the US is 73. Based on your demographics alone, you’ll probably live longer, but I wouldn’t count on 85.

I’m with you on sweets but the overall point (for me) is there’s trade offs - all things being equal I’m assuming we could mathematically show how your rock climbing reduces your life expectancy. Could be 2 days so a horrible example but it’s still a trade off. Back to the sweets - at some point in there there is a tipping point - maybe a dessert a week means 2 months shorter life. That’s worth it to many.

I hear you, but TripitUp specifically said 5 years, just for donuts!?! The usual example is something like steak or liquor, which would also be ridiculous, at that exchange rate. Major dietary changes can add years to one’s lifespan, and potentially even longer to disease-free quality of life.

As I said above, people are quick to mortgage away future life, hypothetically. Yet most scratch-and-claw for every minute, when the prospects of death become a reality. Or perhaps more commonly, their family does. At the same time, they floridly overestimate the hardship associated with dietary change.

I know his example was hyperbole, but the basic concept is thrown around too glibly imo, as an excuse not to even consider eating more healthily.

 

[massraider]

I hear you, but TripitUp specifically said 5 years, just for donuts!?! The usual example is something like steak or liquor, which would also be ridiculous, at that exchange rate. Major dietary changes can add years to one’s lifespan, and potentially even longer to disease-free quality of life.

As I said above, people are quick to mortgage away future life, hypothetically. Yet most scratch-and-claw for every minute, when the prospects of death become a reality. Or perhaps more commonly, their family does. At the same time, they floridly overestimate the hardship associated with dietary change.

I know his example was hyperbole, but the basic concept is thrown around too glibly imo, as an excuse not to even consider eating more healthily.

I used to make that joke when I smoked. Yeah, it takes years off your life, but not your twenties! You can have my eighties, and most of my 70's, haw haw haw.

It's the chronic disease part no one gets. Eat like an ***hole for years, then get heart problems, diabetes, whatever, and they start looking around to see if it "runs in the family".

 

[AAABatteries]

Term, I agree with you and mass to a degree but think we’ve deviated some - nobody is arguing that SAD isn’t horrible for you. I’m just saying I’m not going to cut out all sweets, meat and alcohol all the time in the off chance I add X months. If I eat those things in moderation and my blood work and every measure is good then I’ll most likely continue. I definitely agree some people use that as a excuse to not make changes.

Let’s look at it another way - tell me what the “worst” food you eat on a consistent basis. No matter what it is, would you be willing to give it up for more time? If so, why don’t you now?

 

[AAABatteries]

I do think the tricky part is defining what moderation is and what metrics you can pay attention to so you make sure you stay in the “moderation zone”.

 

[TripItUp]

I hear you, but TripitUp specifically said 5 years, just for donuts!?! The usual example is something like steak or liquor, which would also be ridiculous, at that exchange rate. Major dietary changes can add years to one’s lifespan, and potentially even longer to disease-free quality of life.

I just threw that out there...I have no idea what the number is for donuts. Don't really care.

 

[AAABatteries]

Anyone have experience with extended fasting?

I'm at 70 hours and was only planning on going to 72 but don't really feel the need to stop.

Are there significant benefits to be gained from 72 to 96 hours or 120 hours or longer?

I could just stop at 72 and appreciate the fact this was easier than anticipated and then plan for another 72 hours next week or 96 hours next month. Take the win and baby step it into the world of fasting. (Water, pink salt, green tea)

What makes me want to keep going is maximizing the stem cell benefits. From everything I have read it seems like they peak at 72 hours but continue to regenerate after 72.

No real health issues other than a few skin problems I've had my entire life, tinea versicolor, herp outbreaks a few times a year on lip and eye, receding hairline, smoked for 20+ years but quit last summer, drank daily for 20+ years but only drank 2 six packs since Thanksgiving.

Long term goal is learning about fasting and maximizing the benefits of autophagy, immune system resets, etc. Weight loss is also a bonus. I plan on implementing intermittent fasting going forward and working towards 18/6 or 36/12 eventually with monthly or quarterly 48-96 hour water fasts.

Any advice?

There’s a great review from the New England Jornal of Medicine a couple years ago. You need to have a subscription though.

Cliff’s notes: not proven superior for weight loss than other diets, but an accumulating body of literature, mostly in cells and animals, suggests it may prevent disease and promote longevity.

Nobody knows the optimal fasting duration, and human studies are all over the place. Don’t let big words like autophagy convince you the science is settled.

Term, what do you think the mechanism is for promoting longevity? I remember listening to a guy years ago and I mentioned it somewhere around here - basically said something to the effect of that the only thing known to increase longevity in animals was extended caloric restriction. I’m probably poorly paraphrasing the guy but both then and now it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me.

 

[AAABatteries]

Where I’m going with the question is this. I find fasting easier at times than trying to eat certain healthy meals. If I skip the healthy meal and get a bang for my buck then it seems like a win-win. But is it really just the caloric deficit over time or does the time period really play a role?

 

[Joe Bryant]

Term, what do you think the mechanism is for promoting longevity? I remember listening to a guy years ago and I mentioned it somewhere around here - basically said something to the effect of that the only thing known to increase longevity in animals was extended caloric restriction. I’m probably poorly paraphrasing the guy but both then and now it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me.

I've read similar. Basically skinny people live longer.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Also, just started the Master Class with Michael Pollan on intentional eating. Good so far.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

Basically skinny people live longer.

Not a lot of 300 pound 70+ year olds out there for sure.

 

[Terminalxylem]

Term, I agree with you and mass to a degree but think we’ve deviated some - nobody is arguing that SAD isn’t horrible for you. I’m just saying I’m not going to cut out all sweets, meat and alcohol all the time in the off chance I add X months. If I eat those things in moderation and my blood work and every measure is good then I’ll most likely continue. I definitely agree some people use that as a excuse to not make changes.

Let’s look at it another way - tell me what the “worst” food you eat on a consistent basis. No matter what it is, would you be willing to give it up for more time? If so, why don’t you now?

TBH, I can’t think of any single food I wouldn’t be willing to give up, or at least try, given compelling evidence doing so would extend my life a meaningful amount. The catch is, we don’t understand nutrition, or longevity well enough to pinpoint those foods, which is part of your point I’m sure. And how much time is meaningful? Don’t know the cut-off, but 5 years definitely exceeds it.

But for the sake of argument, the worst thing I eat consistently is dessert. I’ve tried to give up sweets multiple times, and continue to cut down on their intake as I age. I keep failing because of lack of discipline, not because I think the pleasure they provide is worth shortening my lifespan.

To look at it from another perspective, on your deathbed, if a doctor guaranteed you’d live 5 years just by giving up beer, would you do it? Is there any food or beverage you wouldn’t give up in that scenario, if it allowed you to graduate hospice for 5 meaningful, functional years with loved ones?

 

[Terminalxylem]

Anyone have experience with extended fasting?

I'm at 70 hours and was only planning on going to 72 but don't really feel the need to stop.

Are there significant benefits to be gained from 72 to 96 hours or 120 hours or longer?

I could just stop at 72 and appreciate the fact this was easier than anticipated and then plan for another 72 hours next week or 96 hours next month. Take the win and baby step it into the world of fasting. (Water, pink salt, green tea)

What makes me want to keep going is maximizing the stem cell benefits. From everything I have read it seems like they peak at 72 hours but continue to regenerate after 72.

No real health issues other than a few skin problems I've had my entire life, tinea versicolor, herp outbreaks a few times a year on lip and eye, receding hairline, smoked for 20+ years but quit last summer, drank daily for 20+ years but only drank 2 six packs since Thanksgiving.

Long term goal is learning about fasting and maximizing the benefits of autophagy, immune system resets, etc. Weight loss is also a bonus. I plan on implementing intermittent fasting going forward and working towards 18/6 or 36/12 eventually with monthly or quarterly 48-96 hour water fasts.

Any advice?

There’s a great review from the New England Jornal of Medicine a couple years ago. You need to have a subscription though.

Cliff’s notes: not proven superior for weight loss than other diets, but an accumulating body of literature, mostly in cells and animals, suggests it may prevent disease and promote longevity.

Nobody knows the optimal fasting duration, and human studies are all over the place. Don’t let big words like autophagy convince you the science is settled.

Term, what do you think the mechanism is for promoting longevity? I remember listening to a guy years ago and I mentioned it somewhere around here - basically said something to the effect of that the only thing known to increase longevity in animals was extended caloric restriction. I’m probably poorly paraphrasing the guy but both then and now it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me.

I wish I knew. I am intrigued by IF, in part because of the animal data. As an aside, no such data exists for carbohydrate restriction specifically, TMK.

I assume multiple environmental and genetic factors contribute though. Absent a clear answer, I‘d rather mimic the habits of populations who’ve achieved longevity than commit to something that looks promising in animals.

 

[Terminalxylem]

Where I’m going with the question is this. I find fasting easier at times than trying to eat certain healthy meals. If I skip the healthy meal and get a bang for my buck then it seems like a win-win. But is it really just the caloric deficit over time or does the time period really play a role?

Good questions. There’s definitely an argument to be made that achieving a healthy weight and body fat distribution (less visceral fat) is extremely important, independent of how one gets there….diet and exercise, surgery, medications?, etc.

I don’t know where timing of meals, or frequency there of, falls into that equation.

 

[Terminalxylem]

I do think the tricky part is defining what moderation is and what metrics you can pay attention to so you make sure you stay in the “moderation zone”.

Yep. This is part of the reason nutrition guidelines have nixed alcohol intake.

 

[AAABatteries]

Term, I agree with you and mass to a degree but think we’ve deviated some - nobody is arguing that SAD isn’t horrible for you. I’m just saying I’m not going to cut out all sweets, meat and alcohol all the time in the off chance I add X months. If I eat those things in moderation and my blood work and every measure is good then I’ll most likely continue. I definitely agree some people use that as a excuse to not make changes.

Let’s look at it another way - tell me what the “worst” food you eat on a consistent basis. No matter what it is, would you be willing to give it up for more time? If so, why don’t you now?

TBH, I can’t think of any single food I wouldn’t be willing to give up, or at least try, given compelling evidence doing so would extend my life a meaningful amount. The catch is, we don’t understand nutrition, or longevity well enough to pinpoint those foods, which is part of your point I’m sure. And how much time is meaningful? Don’t know the cut-off, but 5 years definitely exceeds it.

But for the sake of argument, the worst thing I eat consistently is dessert. I’ve tried to give up sweets multiple times, and continue to cut down on their intake as I age. I keep failing because of lack of discipline, not because I think the pleasure they provide is worth shortening my lifespan.

To look at it from another perspective, on your deathbed, if a doctor guaranteed you’d live 5 years just by giving up beer, would you do it? Is there any food or beverage you wouldn’t give up in that scenario, if it allowed you to graduate hospice for 5 meaningful, functional years with loved ones?

Nope - I agree with you. There’s nothing I’d swap for 5 years.

 

[acarey50]

Where I’m going with the question is this. I find fasting easier at times than trying to eat certain healthy meals. If I skip the healthy meal and get a bang for my buck then it seems like a win-win. But is it really just the caloric deficit over time or does the time period really play a role?

Huberman Podcast - Here's a link to a podcast that Andrew Huberman did with Layne Norton - the whole podcast is close to 4 hours I believe, but it gets into the science behind some of these questions - intermittent fasting vs. long term fasting vs. "regular" meals, the differences between low-carb/keto and low-fat diets, etc.

If you are really interested in the science behind these types of topics from a couple folks that are not trying to peddle their own diet, etc., it is very interesting.

In short, there is no evidence that fasting is any better than regular old caloric restriction. If you find time-restricted eating to be the easiest way for you to control calories, go for it, but the risk is a higher likelihood of binging. If you prefer spreading your calories out over 3-4 meals per day, go for it. Whatever you are more likely to be able to consistently stick to, go for it.

As for low-carb, low-fat or any other fad diet, they are all basically the same, and really any that demonizes a particular macro nutrient should likely be avoided. When properly controlled for total calories and total protein intake, there was no noticeable difference between just about all studied diets in terms of weight loss.

 

[AAABatteries]

In short, there is no evidence that fasting is any better than regular old caloric restriction. If you find time-restricted eating to be the easiest way for you to control calories, go for it, but the risk is a higher likelihood of binging. If you prefer spreading your calories out over 3-4 meals per day, go for it. Whatever you are more likely to be able to consistently stick to, go for it.

Thanks for the link- will check it out. To clarify the bolded - that’s referring to losing weight?

Do they address longevity at all?

 

[Ron Swanson]

My thing about diets that are designed to lose weight is that the focus is on losing weight, not being healthy. Forget about if a diet is sustainable long term. If a person isn't getting all their nutrients from real food, they are at risk. Whether they are skinny or not.

Focusing on gut health will rarely steer someone wrong. Americans' plumbing is in a sorry state. Quick side note of what I am talking about: Everyday, Americans put a salad dressing on their salad, which uses emulsifiers. Let's say for argument this is a "healthy" dressing otherwise. The job of emulsifiers is to break down cells, so that vinegar and oil can mix. Well, emulsifiers don't stop being emulsifiers when they are swallowed, so they continue to break down stuff in your gut, like the good mucus that lines our intestine, and keeps that stuff we would rather flush in a toilet from leaking into our body. Emulsifiers effect on the microbiome When people were wondering about the 'worms' left in the toilet after taking Ivermectin? Yeah, that was their gut mucus, and that was really really really not good.

Wide variety of fibrous vegetables as the main source of food. Avoiding processed foods. Animal protein? I love it, but where are your proteins from? Was your chicken genetically raised to be larger, and stuffed with antibiotics from a corporate farm? First, those chickens have no flavor. Second, we eat what they eat. Watch a few videos from those megafarms, and that will cure you of supermarket chicken. I eat beef and lamb and chicken and tuna and salmon and venison, and I know where they come from and how they were fed. I eat pretty small portions of protein, especially compared to what I used to eat. I love steakhouses, but geez Louise you have to be careful. "Food coma" is your body screaming out in a cry for help.

One point of clarification, the article indicts synthetic emulsifiers as the primary culprits. So dressings made with natural emulsifiers (eggs, mustard, soy lecithin) may not present the same issue. So, back to the processed food thing...

 

[ProstheticRGK]

Basically skinny people live longer.

Not a lot of 300 pound 70+ year olds out there for sure.

You'd be surprised. in the hospital, we are seeing more and more of them. Quality of life is not something I would sign up for, but modern medicine is pushing those boundaries out.

The quality of life thing is so crucial to this entire topic. I take care of patients who live a 50-year-old lifestyle at 85. And I also take care of patients who are basically crippled, dialysis-dependent shut-ins requiring 24/7 assistance in their 50s.

I'm convinced a vegan (or vegan-ish diet) is the healthiest diet humans can eat. But, it's hard to maintain. For me, anyway. Keto is so compelling because you get all the benefits of weight loss, normalizing blood glucose, reducing bad cholesterol/improving good cholesterol, improvements in energy level, and hunger control. It's also the easiest diet, for me, to maintain because of lifestyle and cultural factors.

I still haven't cracked the code on vegan keto, and honestly never even thought of doing Mediterranean Diet with IF. I am intrigued by that idea. Maybe a trial run.

 

[acarey50]

In short, there is no evidence that fasting is any better than regular old caloric restriction. If you find time-restricted eating to be the easiest way for you to control calories, go for it, but the risk is a higher likelihood of binging. If you prefer spreading your calories out over 3-4 meals per day, go for it. Whatever you are more likely to be able to consistently stick to, go for it.

Thanks for the link- will check it out. To clarify the bolded - that’s referring to losing weight?

Do they address longevity at all?

I'd need to listen to that particular podcast again, but I believe the focus of that particular discussion was on weight/fat loss. I don't recall if it was this podcast or on another one that touched on the longevity aspect, but I recall listening to one that had some similar findings regarding the supposed benefits of fasting (the cell regeneration, autophagy, inflammation markers, etc.), and as I recall, it had similar findings to that of the weight/fat loss, then when properly controlled for calories and protein, there was no significant benefit to the fasting group compared to the control group. I'll apologize now that I don't have a link readily available to that particular conversation.

For me personally, I have had great success in the past with intermittent fasting, both protocols like 18/6 or 20/4 and also OMAD (one meal a day), but that was more because of lifestyle/schedule at the time and because I am a creature of habit and having a fairly fixed routine worked well for me. My current lifestyle/schedule does not work as well into a set IF schedule all the time, so I use it more strategically on days when I need it to help me stay within my calorie range for the day - for example, if I know we are going out to dinner with friends, I'll allow myself to plan to enjoy an appetizer, a decent meal with some indulgence and an adult beverage, but to account for what will be a higher than normal caloric meal, I'll either skip breakfast or keep it smaller than usual, and perhaps do something like make a decent sized salad for lunch in the mid afternoon as I know the bulk of those veggies will keep me feeling full longer and not provide a huge caloric surplus (by not using a high calorie dressing).

All about moderation. I also believe we get what we measure, so I'm getting back into the habit of measuring/weighing everything I am eating when possible (obviously not out at restaurants, etc.) helps with proper portion control. And also helps with the moderation. If I want ice cream, I can make it fit in with my calories for the day, just weight it out so I am keeping it to a couple hundred calories instead of eating the tub for 1200 calories - I get the immediate satisfaction of appeasing the craving, I don't blow my diet, and I get the delayed gratification of knowing I can have ice cream tomorrow if I want it as I didn't eat it all (or if my kids don't get it first). Helps build a healthy relationship with food which I admittedly have struggled with in the past. Doing my best to not continue repeating the lose weight, keep it off for while, and put it back on, get myself in a rut because of it, and repeat the cycle.

 

[AAABatteries]

It's crazy - we went from the "you have to keep your metabolism going by eating all day long" era to "you want to give your body time to recove/regenerate so only eat seldom and group it" era. I think between that and the different diets out there it makes some people get super frustrated. Granted, most of those people are looking for excuses. We should create a running list of what they have in common as a consensus:

• Don't smoke or drink
• Drink lots of water
• Limit sugar and severely limit processed sugar
• Eat lots of veggies
• Severely limit processed foods/oils
• Eat enough fiber

I think if you just did those things you can forget almost everything else.

 

[massraider]

It's crazy - we went from the "you have to keep your metabolism going by eating all day long" era to "you want to give your body time to recove/regenerate so only eat seldom and group it" era. I think between that and the different diets out there it makes some people get super frustrated. Granted, most of those people are looking for excuses. We should create a running list of what they have in common as a consensus:

• Don't smoke or drink
• Drink lots of water
• Limit sugar and severely limit processed sugar
• Eat lots of veggies
• Severely limit processed foods/oils
• Eat enough fiber

I think if you just did those things you can forget almost everything else.

Variety.

There's a bunch of healthy food out there

 

[AAABatteries]

It's crazy - we went from the "you have to keep your metabolism going by eating all day long" era to "you want to give your body time to recove/regenerate so only eat seldom and group it" era. I think between that and the different diets out there it makes some people get super frustrated. Granted, most of those people are looking for excuses. We should create a running list of what they have in common as a consensus:

• Don't smoke or drink
• Drink lots of water
• Limit sugar and severely limit processed sugar
• Eat lots of veggies
• Severely limit processed foods/oils
• Eat enough fiber

I think if you just did those things you can forget almost everything else.

Variety.

There's a bunch of healthy food out there

I think there's a lot of people out there who don't like variety - I'm with you. Although I will say I value ease over variety if it comes down to it.

 

[acarey50]

It's crazy - we went from the "you have to keep your metabolism going by eating all day long" era to "you want to give your body time to recove/regenerate so only eat seldom and group it" era. I think between that and the different diets out there it makes some people get super frustrated. Granted, most of those people are looking for excuses. We should create a running list of what they have in common as a consensus:

• Don't smoke or drink
• Drink lots of water
• Limit sugar and severely limit processed sugar
• Eat lots of veggies
• Severely limit processed foods/oils
• Eat enough fiber

I think if you just did those things you can forget almost everything else.

Unfortunately, it's hard to get your piece of the $30 Billion pie if you don't take an extreme position and demonize the other positions.

In general, I think you are right. People like to try focus on the minutia as use it as an excuse to ignore the big picture and say F It, why bother. For the 99% of us that are not professional athletes, following the basics you laid out will be more than enough and likely healthier than the vast majority of the population is doing. For the 1% of us where peak performance from an athletic/aesthetic standpoint matters, then the minutia matters. Meal frequency is important for a bodybuilder trying to gain that 0.5% edge, specific timing of meals is important for the athlete that needs to perform at peak levels at a certain game time or fight time, etc. But for the rest of us, those things do not matter in the big picture.

 

[Jayrod]

Haven't read the thread, but in my usual fashion I'm going to throw in my 2 cents with a healthy dose of arrogance and irrational confidence.

As for the theme of the thread, fasting is a great way to stay healthy. Not sure if its the best for losing weight, but it does a lot for your overall body health, blood pressure, blood sugar, etc.

As for my knowledge base, my wife is a health nut...I mean extreme levels of research and practice for decades now after a serious struggle with eating disorders (she was hospitalized twice as a teen and near death). If a health trend has emerged, she's tried it. As for me? I'm a dabbler in healthy things as a former athlete and college football official (where appearance matters) but I'm also a guy who loves to feel good and enjoy life and also spent a good 10 years from age 12-22 trying to gain weight...so we have approached things from different angles and learned a lot.

Long story short, here is my blueprint for staying healthy and looking good:

• Drink water. Lots of water. For meals and throughout the day. Nothing (and I mean NOTHING) is more important to your overall health. Replace soda and alcohol as much as possible. I still drink both regularly, but try to drink at least a gallon of water per day. Yes I pee a lot. When I cut out alcohol/soda completely I start to lose weight...but I still enjoy both too much to give them up completely.
• Eat vegatables. Lots of them in any form or fashion. Fried is less than ideal, but better than nothing. My wife eats a vegan diet about 90% of the time. Me about 50%, but I'd be better off doing more. Have a friend who was a severe diabetic and went to a plant based diet and has done a 180 on his overall health. He killed his Pancreas' ability to produce insulin long ago so he still has to take shots, but his blood sugar levels are better than a non-diabetic all day every day. Plants >>>> meat all day long.
• Do intermittent fasting. I do black coffee most days until lunch. So from dinner (8:00 pm) until lunch (11:30 am) it is just water and coffee. Helps metabolism, blood sugar, and reduces overall caloric intake which helps control weight.
• Lift weights. I don't mean power lift, but don't just do cardio. You can get "skinny fat" doing large amounts of cardio and will find yourself looking less good and feeling not great and get injured more often if you don't do regular resistance training. Dumbbells and 3 sets of 10-12 to exhaustion of the major muscle groups is a good starting point. Bench, rows & squats/legpress are best. I thrown in curls and shoulder work for appearances, but without weight training you are just chasing fat instead of building muscle. Muscle looks better and raises your metabolic rates.

That is it. You do those 4 things and your health will skyrocket and your appearance improve. Diseases decrease and mobility increases. This has been my blueprint for the last 5-10 years with varying levels of commitment and effort. Sometimes we get busy, have an injury, etc. but the more I stay in line with these 4 things the better my overall health.

 

[Brony]

It's crazy - we went from the "you have to keep your metabolism going by eating all day long" era to "you want to give your body time to recove/regenerate so only eat seldom and group it" era. I think between that and the different diets out there it makes some people get super frustrated. Granted, most of those people are looking for excuses. We should create a running list of what they have in common as a consensus:

• Don't smoke or drink
• Drink lots of water
• Limit sugar and severely limit processed sugar
• Eat lots of veggies
• Severely limit processed foods/oils
• Eat enough fiber

I think if you just did those things you can forget almost everything else.

I know the science has evolved a little bit since I last spent a lot of time digging into epidemiological medical journals on mortality and morbidity, but 15 years ago there was a clear pattern of "don't be obese and exercise regularly". Everything else was noise.

 

[massraider]

I think there's a lot of people out there who don't like variety - I'm with you. Although I will say I value ease over variety if it comes down to it.

That's neither here nor there for me.

Talking about a list of 'Do's and Don'ts' to agree on, different veggies have different nutrients, and your body functions better with better fuel. Hate cauliflower? Cool, get nutrients elsewhere. But someone who was eats chicken breast and broccoli 5 times a week is missing things they need, whether they have abs or not.

 

[acarey50]

Haven't read the thread, but in my usual fashion I'm going to throw in my 2 cents with a healthy dose of arrogance and irrational confidence.

As for the theme of the thread, fasting is a great way to stay healthy. Not sure if its the best for losing weight, but it does a lot for your overall body health, blood pressure, blood sugar, etc.

As for my knowledge base, my wife is a health nut...I mean extreme levels of research and practice for decades now after a serious struggle with eating disorders (she was hospitalized twice as a teen and near death). If a health trend has emerged, she's tried it. As for me? I'm a dabbler in healthy things as a former athlete and college football official (where appearance matters) but I'm also a guy who loves to feel good and enjoy life and also spent a good 10 years from age 12-22 trying to gain weight...so we have approached things from different angles and learned a lot.

Long story short, here is my blueprint for staying healthy and looking good:

• Drink water. Lots of water. For meals and throughout the day. Nothing (and I mean NOTHING) is more important to your overall health. Replace soda and alcohol as much as possible. I still drink both regularly, but try to drink at least a gallon of water per day. Yes I pee a lot. When I cut out alcohol/soda completely I start to lose weight...but I still enjoy both too much to give them up completely.
• Eat vegatables. Lots of them in any form or fashion. Fried is less than ideal, but better than nothing. My wife eats a vegan diet about 90% of the time. Me about 50%, but I'd be better off doing more. Have a friend who was a severe diabetic and went to a plant based diet and has done a 180 on his overall health. He killed his Pancreas' ability to produce insulin long ago so he still has to take shots, but his blood sugar levels are better than a non-diabetic all day every day. Plants >>>> meat all day long.
• Do intermittent fasting. I do black coffee most days until lunch. So from dinner (8:00 pm) until lunch (11:30 am) it is just water and coffee. Helps metabolism, blood sugar, and reduces overall caloric intake which helps control weight.
• Lift weights. I don't mean power lift, but don't just do cardio. You can get "skinny fat" doing large amounts of cardio and will find yourself looking less good and feeling not great and get injured more often if you don't do regular resistance training. Dumbbells and 3 sets of 10-12 to exhaustion of the major muscle groups is a good starting point. Bench, rows & squats/legpress are best. I thrown in curls and shoulder work for appearances, but without weight training you are just chasing fat instead of building muscle. Muscle looks better and raises your metabolic rates.

That is it. You do those 4 things and your health will skyrocket and your appearance improve. Diseases decrease and mobility increases. This has been my blueprint for the last 5-10 years with varying levels of commitment and effort. Sometimes we get busy, have an injury, etc. but the more I stay in line with these 4 things the better my overall health.

Re: the bolded - some conversation on that subject previously, but while what you say here is not "false", it's more of a half truth as it's being presented in a way to imply that the fasting period is causing those benefits when the more overarching meta-studies on this subject indicate that, when controlled for caloric intake and protein levels, these same benefits are seen regardless if one eats throughout the day, does a 16/8 IF protocol like you do, a 20/4 protocol, OMAD or extended fasting.

It basically boils down to don't over eat and follow the protocol that best fits your preference/lifestyle, whether that's IF, grazing or just 3 squares a day. If following an IF protocol is what is easiest for you to maintain compliance, then that is what is best for you - if you function better with a solid breakfast and small snacks throughout the day, then eat breakfast and snack throughout the day, as that is what is best for you.

 

[AAABatteries]

I think there's a lot of people out there who don't like variety - I'm with you. Although I will say I value ease over variety if it comes down to it.

That's neither here nor there for me.

Talking about a list of 'Do's and Don'ts' to agree on, different veggies have different nutrients, and your body functions better with better fuel. Hate cauliflower? Cool, get nutrients elsewhere. But someone who was eats chicken breast and broccoli 5 times a week is missing things they need, whether they have abs or not.

I see - I was thinking just variety for variety sake, not for well-balanced nutrients.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I still haven't cracked the code on vegan keto, and honestly never even thought of doing Mediterranean Diet with IF. I am intrigued by that idea. Maybe a trial run.

What is IF?

 

[massraider]

I still haven't cracked the code on vegan keto, and honestly never even thought of doing Mediterranean Diet with IF. I am intrigued by that idea. Maybe a trial run.

What is IF?

Intermittent Fasting

 

[massraider]

I see - I was thinking just variety for variety sake, not for well-balanced nutrients.

I need to make a longer post about this, but spectrum of nutrients doesn't matter to fad dieters, right? Not the ones that push them, and not people trying to lose weight.
It's like, uggh, I need to lose weight, then worry about getting all my vitamins. Which is changing lifestyles/diets AGAIN. it's counter-intuitive.

The goal, for me, is to be eating real, whole food, as close as I can to it's natural state, avoiding as much additives as possible. Additives is doing a lot of heavy lifting there, you can fill in the blanks. Proteins that don't come from corporate farms, local veggies. Wide variety of fibrous vegetables. That phrase is also doing a lot of work, and different veggies add different things. You wind up putting better fuel in the machine that is our body.

A big thing that gets lost in the noise: You can eat stuff in moderation, but people need to also understand that small amounts of food trigger signals in our body. Fibrous food makes us FEEL more full, that's what we want. Sugary foods make you desire more of them. A fruit smoothie in the morning (add in whatever trendy vitamin pack you want) is still going to trigger that rush, and desire for more sugar, and that's how people wind up cheating.

I have a friend who has a passion for this, and he has always been a slim dude. His angle has been aging well. He watched his dad eat/drink/smoke his way into an early grave. He is big on Intermittent fasting, but as a part of gut health, cellular regeneration, and a healthy, long term diet. It just so happens that intermittent fasting, in conjunction with eating well, can help losing weight. Like I said before, especially if you can exercise coming off a fast. There is a bunch of idea out there about how long into a fast someone is in ketosis, but if you don't have sugar and carbs in your system, what else can your body burn for energy?

it can be done, fairly quickly, without exercise, but really, it's just logical that exercise is a good idea. Find an exercise you want to do. Me, it's cycling, hour and a half, as often as I can.

Have your list of foods, the stuff you want to be part of your diet. Make some meals, make some plans, do some googling. There are plenty of things to cook with good food.

Send me a PM, I have a spreadsheet of food to eat and avoid. Focusing on gut health, making sure your plumbing is cruising right along, and avoiding chronic American disease.

 

[Terminalxylem]

As for low-carb, low-fat or any other fad diet, they are all basically the same, and really any that demonizes a particular macro nutrient should likely be avoided. When properly controlled for total calories and total protein intake, there was no noticeable difference between just about all studied diets in terms of weight loss.

The bolded is exactly how I feel. Too often, keto/VLC diets throw out the baby with the bath water, by avoiding healthy foods like legumes, whole grains, some fruits and vegetables in favor of lower nutrient, usually meaty (and sometimes processed) substitutes. The only macronutrient that seems to have escaped criticism is protein, though a case can certainly be made that contemporary diets put too much emphasis on it. It’s gonna be interesting to see if there are health sequelae of this high-protein shift down the road, especially kidney disease +/- gastrointestinal malignancy.

As for the non-bolded, there’s a decent amount of evidence low carbohydrate diets facilitate more short-term weight loss than their low fat counterparts. That being said, the comparator low fat diets haven’t always been comprised of healthy carbohydrate, high nutrient foods. And the weight loss doesn’t seem sustainable with nearly any diet.

The subject of this thread, fasting, is even more of a grey area, particularly as it relates to longevity. And in the end, there’s unlikely to be a one-size-fits-all approach. A greater understanding of the genetics of aging, weight homeostasis and nutrition will hopefully allow more personalization of diet in the future. In the meantime, the most common sense approach imo is copying habits of healthy old people.

 

[acarey50]

I am leaning towards some form of IF just because it simplifies the discipline aspect but pretty open as to what I actually eat, and definitely cutting out the fast food and burritos. One step at a time.

There's a lot to potentially chat about in your full post, but regarding this - baby steps - if you are eating fast food 4 days a week, start by cutting that to two days and perhaps making some slightly healthier choices if possible - ie instead of 2 burgers, get 1 or get 1 burger and 1 grilled chicken sandwich. Cut from a large fries to a small fries. Eliminate the soda.

For most people, making incremental changes are going to be easier to stick to long term. After a month or 6 weeks of two days a week, go to 1 day a week, and then down to no days or only when there is no other choice.

For burritos, if homemade, make them healthier - grilled chicken, lots of veggies, black beans instead of refried beans, etc.

Meal prep if you can. It's a lifesaver and there are many delicious options. I made a Buffalo Chicken Crack Pasta dish that comes out to about 500 calories, 50 grams protein, 50 grams carb and 10 grams Fat and is delicious. I made a double batch and barely got any the first time I made it because the kids devoured it that fast. But the full on "healthy" version utilizes chicken breast, "greek" cream cheese (higher protein, lower fat/cals then regular cream cheese), protein pasta (the stuff made from chickpeas, etc.), bacon (makes everything better) and non fat shredded cheese (if you can find it), then Buffalo or your favorite hot sauce to taste. Can all be done in the crock pot. I got the recipe from a dietitian named Zach Coen - you can find him on Instagram, Tik Tok etc. and I plan to subscribe to hi Patreon to get access to a lot more menus. Prepping for not only myself but also my wife and 4 boys (3 mine, 1 living with us) between 12 and 18 all involved in sports, it's a lifesaver.

I also can not recommend enough investing in a kitchen scale and weighing everything you eat. It can be eye opening how much is truly a serving, not only sometimes in how little for some foods, but how much you can have with others. I'd also invest in a calorie tracker - I prefer something like Macro Factor or Carbon Diet Coach over something like MyFitnessPal, especially with MFP charging now, it makes the others seem like a bargain as they are not only just as cheap, but they also will make recommendations on your macro breakdown based on your weight, activity level, dietary preference and goals. I'm personally using Macro Factor trying to lose weight (down about 25 pounds this year, but have stalled recently, largely due to not getting in enough exercise and some personal stressors in life right now), and my 18 year old is using it for weight gain - he's currently just under 200 pounds, trying to get up to 225 between October and the end of the year,