Fasting to lose weight - Dr Jason Fung (1 Viewer)

[mr roboto]

And that’s the crux of it, no?  There seems to be a line you can cross where the amount and intensity of the exercise can start being counterproductive.  

Yes. Chaka is referring to it.  Going from virtually no exercise to working hard five days a week is very drastic change in lifestyle. Combine the excess calorie burn with a low calorie diet that most people try to follow when they’re trying to lose weight and you can actually damage your metabolism not to mention hurt your knees and ankles and be sore and tired all the time.   Most people have enough willpower to put up with the hunger and the soreness for few months at most and during those few months they may lose some weight but they give up, and rightfully so because no one wants to be hungry all the time and have everything hurt.   

 Then they assume that exercise just really isn’t for them and they go back to their former life style usually gaining more weight than they lost because their few months of trying to burn way more calories than they consumes just causes their body to turn down their metabolism. 

 In my opinion, and of course this opinion comports with the philosophy that my company teaches, is to begin most unfit people on a combination of moderate intensity, infrequent strength training with a diet that focuses not on total calories consumed but rather a low sugar, anti-inflammatory nutritional program.   

 When you are consuming more proteins and healthy fats and less cheap sugars you will almost always end up consuming less calories and feeling more full. And if you are training your muscles and causing your body to put its resources towards rebuilding muscle, it will start an upward spiral of body fat burning that doesn’t require an hour a day of exercise and certainly doesn’t require you to starve yourself. 

 But, the weight-loss results will be steady but relatively unimpressive in the first few months as you are selling your body‘s metabolism and building it to become a long-term fat burning machine. 

 So you have to take a medium term to long-term approach to reaching your goals, especially if you are more than 40 or 50 pounds overweight. 

 

[mr roboto]

 And your body doesn’t really care or even know if it’s lifting free weights or machine weights or even body weight. 50 pounds lifted and lowered by your chest muscles is the same irrespective of the format of loading so if you are comfortable using the machines at the gym, go right ahead. If you know how to train safely using free weights, go right ahead. Bodyweight exercises you can learn from people online? You guessed it, go right ahead. Focus on large, compound  movements that engage multiple muscle groups and try to lift heavy and slow. 

 

[AAABatteries]

Good stuff Roboto - that seems to be in line with most of what I’ve been reading and personally doing.  Since this is the fasting thread, I’ll ask - Do you have any clients fasting? Are you opposed to it, in favor of it or leave it up to the individual as long as they are following your other nutrition guidelines?

 

[Chaka]

On the other hand - I wouldn’t just tell someone to be more active in their daily life. I always encourage some level of intentional, moderate intensity work that will improve the RMR. 

I don't tell anyone to do that either.

I am speaking to the typical 40 something, formerly athletic FBG who wants to get back into shape after years of getting softer as family and responsibilities of life have gotten in the way.

That guy shouldn't just go back to the gym and start bro-down-brahing and eating salads with skinless chicken breasts every night. That guy needs to take a methodical long term approach. That guy should do simple stretches in the morning (or evening). He should walk the dog regularly, mow the lawn regularly, start in on that looooong list of house hold projects he has been putting off for years.

That guy should try to move more in daily life. That kind of activity makes eating those salads with oil and vinegar and skinless chicken breasts much sustainable. If he proves he can do something simple like that in a sustainable fashion he will lose weight and once he has that down we can talk about ramping up the exercise and maybe getting back in the gym.

 

[mr roboto]

Good stuff Roboto - that seems to be in line with most of what I’ve been reading and personally doing.  Since this is the fasting thread, I’ll ask - Do you have any clients fasting? Are you opposed to it, in favor of it or leave it up to the individual as long as they are following your other nutrition guidelines?

 Our nutritional materials cover intermittent fasting as a great way to control insulin levels but I don’t think that we are intentionally coaching anybody to do that.  Personally I think it’s a second level strategy once you’ve tackled the issue of retraining your body not to crave so much sugar.   Ask any trainer, it’s hard enough to get people to put down the sodas and diet sodas, stop eating pizza and pasta and carbs and start to cook for themselves. 

 

[culdeus]

Yes. Chaka is referring to it.  Going from virtually no exercise to working hard five days a week is very drastic change in lifestyle. Combine the excess calorie burn with a low calorie diet that most people try to follow when they’re trying to lose weight and you can actually damage your metabolism not to mention hurt your knees and ankles and be sore and tired all the time.   Most people have enough willpower to put up with the hunger and the soreness for few months at most and during those few months they may lose some weight but they give up, and rightfully so because no one wants to be hungry all the time and have everything hurt.   

 Then they assume that exercise just really isn’t for them and they go back to their former life style usually gaining more weight than they lost because their few months of trying to burn way more calories than they consumes just causes their body to turn down their metabolism. 

 In my opinion, and of course this opinion comports with the philosophy that my company teaches, is to begin most unfit people on a combination of moderate intensity, infrequent strength training with a diet that focuses not on total calories consumed but rather a low sugar, anti-inflammatory nutritional program.   

 When you are consuming more proteins and healthy fats and less cheap sugars you will almost always end up consuming less calories and feeling more full. And if you are training your muscles and causing your body to put its resources towards rebuilding muscle, it will start an upward spiral of body fat burning that doesn’t require an hour a day of exercise and certainly doesn’t require you to starve yourself. 

 But, the weight-loss results will be steady but relatively unimpressive in the first few months as you are selling your body‘s metabolism and building it to become a long-term fat burning machine. 

 So you have to take a medium term to long-term approach to reaching your goals, especially if you are more than 40 or 50 pounds overweight. 

I really don't have the energy to post crap in a dozen threads. Some of the research lately is seemingly showing heavily overfat individuals can pull from fat stores to make muscle. For awhile the wisdom was trying to lose fat and gain muscle at same time was a myth and was leading to metabolic damage. Not so sure anymore. 

Also there are some new satiation studies that show no one macro is satiating over any other.  It is the volume of food that matters. It just so happens the most energy dense food tends to be the worst offenders and a major component of the USA diet. 

I try to stick to the main Otis thread where this content belongs.  

 

[pantherclub]

I have a general overall question about fasting or the 20/4 method or whatever.

If I work out in the morning but the time I choose to eat is in the mid afternoon is that safe to do?  I mean the few times I have worked out on an empty stomach I got light headed and felt weak.  Should I push through this or put something in my body?

 

[Slapdash]

I very rarely eat breakfast and most work days dont eat lunch.  I just dont really get hungry.  Eat a lot at dinner though.

 

[AAABatteries]

I very rarely eat breakfast and most work days dont eat lunch.  I just dont really get hungry.  Eat a lot at dinner though.

How big a fella are you?  Any metabolic syndrome?

 

[Slapdash]

How big a fella are you?  Any metabolic syndrome?

5'9" usually near 170lbs.  I'm 30 and am very honest with my doctor about my habbits

 

[Nugget]

Fasting is a lot easier and safer than grocery shopping. 65 hours in. 

 

[brun]

I have a general overall question about fasting or the 20/4 method or whatever.

If I work out in the morning but the time I choose to eat is in the mid afternoon is that safe to do?  I mean the few times I have worked out on an empty stomach I got light headed and felt weak.  Should I push through this or put something in my body?

Not a big exercise guy and I'm not a doctor but I do a lot of 16 to 24 hour fasts and have no problem with low intensity stuff 16 or 20 hours into my fast. Intuitively I would offer that if you're feeling light headed or dizzy; stop before you hurt yourself. You may want to make sure you're staying hydrated, maybe even look to add a little salt to your water. If that's not it, you might be low on sugar. Don't be afraid to talk to your doctor.
Good luck. Stay safe.

 

[Nugget]

Ended fast yesterday afternoon.   I was able to keep doing decent walks - 4,3,6 miles over the 3 days.

Looking at alternate day fasting for the next couple of weeks and seeing how my body responds.  Only downside I saw during the fast was some restlessness at bedtime.  This seems like a pretty good time to experiment.

 

[Mister CIA]

Ended fast yesterday afternoon.   I was able to keep doing decent walks - 4,3,6 miles over the 3 days.

Looking at alternate day fasting for the next couple of weeks and seeing how my body responds.  Only downside I saw during the fast was some restlessness at bedtime.  This seems like a pretty good time to experiment.

Do a Google search on "autophagy."  Fascinating stuff.  116 hours is my at water fasting (water and black coffee onl). You are comprimised while going through autophagy, as white blood cell count drops.  At least I think that is what happens.  :Not a doctor:

 

[Nugget]

Do a Google search on "autophagy."  Fascinating stuff.  116 hours is my at water fasting (water and black coffee onl). You are comprimised while going through autophagy, as white blood cell count drops.  At least I think that is what happens.  :Not a doctor:

I started listening to Rhonda Patrick a couple years ago on podcasts and she is a big proponent of autophagy to improve healthspan.  

Seems to be some confusion as to whether autophagy would help or hurt with Covids.  

Lots of science in this article on autophagy and viruses from Nature

 

[Mister CIA]

I started listening to Rhonda Patrick a couple years ago on podcasts and she is a big proponent of autophagy to improve healthspan.  

Seems to be some confusion as to whether autophagy would help or hurt with Covids.  

Lots of science in this article on autophagy and viruses from Nature

Check out Peter Attia too, though a lot of his content for subscribers only at $15/month (not a subscriber).

 

[Otis]

I'm really at the beginning of my fasting journey but I think this is a real key to the issue that we are facing.  We simply eat too often. 

I don't have any answers, but I agree with this 100%. 

 

[AAABatteries]

Bump - completed a 40 hour food fast earlier today.  Felt fine but got really hungry last night and around hour 38.  While I abandoned fasting during Covid last year, I’m still a “believer”.  Plan to incorporate this in my routine again and hopefully will stick longer this time.

 

[JShare87]

Anyone have experience with extended fasting?

I'm at 70 hours and was only planning on going to 72 but don't really feel the need to stop.

Are there significant benefits to be gained from 72 to 96 hours or 120 hours or longer?

I could just stop at 72 and appreciate the fact this was easier than anticipated and then plan for another 72 hours next week or 96 hours next month. Take the win and baby step it into the world of fasting. (Water, pink salt, green tea)

What makes me want to keep going is maximizing the stem cell benefits. From everything I have read it seems like they peak at 72 hours but continue to regenerate after 72.

No real health issues other than a few skin problems I've had my entire life, tinea versicolor, herp outbreaks a few times a year on lip and eye, receding hairline, smoked for 20+ years but quit last summer, drank daily for 20+ years but only drank 2 six packs since Thanksgiving.

Long term goal is learning about fasting and maximizing the benefits of autophagy, immune system resets, etc. Weight loss is also a bonus. I plan on implementing intermittent fasting going forward and working towards 18/6 or 36/12 eventually with monthly or quarterly 48-96 hour water fasts.

Any advice?

I have done a few 72+ hour fasts because I read about the benefits after that time span too. I’ve been fasting for over 5 years now, and I don’t think I’ll ever go back. I try and do a 48+ hour fast ever once in a while, but I just stick to the 23-1. I tried a lot of things back in the day, fasting is a lifestyle that I’m able to sustain. Everyone is different. If you can go 96, do it. Just be careful with doing activities.

 

[AAABatteries]

Anyone have experience with extended fasting?

I'm at 70 hours and was only planning on going to 72 but don't really feel the need to stop.

Are there significant benefits to be gained from 72 to 96 hours or 120 hours or longer?

I could just stop at 72 and appreciate the fact this was easier than anticipated and then plan for another 72 hours next week or 96 hours next month. Take the win and baby step it into the world of fasting. (Water, pink salt, green tea)

What makes me want to keep going is maximizing the stem cell benefits. From everything I have read it seems like they peak at 72 hours but continue to regenerate after 72.

No real health issues other than a few skin problems I've had my entire life, tinea versicolor, herp outbreaks a few times a year on lip and eye, receding hairline, smoked for 20+ years but quit last summer, drank daily for 20+ years but only drank 2 six packs since Thanksgiving.

Long term goal is learning about fasting and maximizing the benefits of autophagy, immune system resets, etc. Weight loss is also a bonus. I plan on implementing intermittent fasting going forward and working towards 18/6 or 36/12 eventually with monthly or quarterly 48-96 hour water fasts.

Any advice?

Is this your first fast of this length? If so, I’d be cautious extending it just because you feel good now. Also, with longer fasts you have to be more careful with breaking your fast.

 

[Terminalxylem]

Anyone have experience with extended fasting?

I'm at 70 hours and was only planning on going to 72 but don't really feel the need to stop.

Are there significant benefits to be gained from 72 to 96 hours or 120 hours or longer?

I could just stop at 72 and appreciate the fact this was easier than anticipated and then plan for another 72 hours next week or 96 hours next month. Take the win and baby step it into the world of fasting. (Water, pink salt, green tea)

What makes me want to keep going is maximizing the stem cell benefits. From everything I have read it seems like they peak at 72 hours but continue to regenerate after 72.

No real health issues other than a few skin problems I've had my entire life, tinea versicolor, herp outbreaks a few times a year on lip and eye, receding hairline, smoked for 20+ years but quit last summer, drank daily for 20+ years but only drank 2 six packs since Thanksgiving.

Long term goal is learning about fasting and maximizing the benefits of autophagy, immune system resets, etc. Weight loss is also a bonus. I plan on implementing intermittent fasting going forward and working towards 18/6 or 36/12 eventually with monthly or quarterly 48-96 hour water fasts.

Any advice?

There’s a great review from the New England Jornal of Medicine a couple years ago. You need to have a subscription though.

Cliff’s notes: not proven superior for weight loss than other diets, but an accumulating body of literature, mostly in cells and animals, suggests it may prevent disease and promote longevity.

Nobody knows the optimal fasting duration, and human studies are all over the place. Don’t let big words like autophagy convince you the science is settled.

 

[Jutz]

Yes. Chaka is referring to it. Going from virtually no exercise to working hard five days a week is very drastic change in lifestyle. Combine the excess calorie burn with a low calorie diet that most people try to follow when they’re trying to lose weight and you can actually damage your metabolism not to mention hurt your knees and ankles and be sore and tired all the time. Most people have enough willpower to put up with the hunger and the soreness for few months at most and during those few months they may lose some weight but they give up, and rightfully so because no one wants to be hungry all the time and have everything hurt.

Then they assume that exercise just really isn’t for them and they go back to their former life style usually gaining more weight than they lost because their few months of trying to burn way more calories than they consumes just causes their body to turn down their metabolism.

In my opinion, and of course this opinion comports with the philosophy that my company teaches, is to begin most unfit people on a combination of moderate intensity, infrequent strength training with a diet that focuses not on total calories consumed but rather a low sugar, anti-inflammatory nutritional program.

When you are consuming more proteins and healthy fats and less cheap sugars you will almost always end up consuming less calories and feeling more full. And if you are training your muscles and causing your body to put its resources towards rebuilding muscle, it will start an upward spiral of body fat burning that doesn’t require an hour a day of exercise and certainly doesn’t require you to starve yourself.

But, the weight-loss results will be steady but relatively unimpressive in the first few months as you are selling your body‘s metabolism and building it to become a long-term fat burning machine.

So you have to take a medium term to long-term approach to reaching your goals, especially if you are more than 40 or 50 pounds overweight.

I read this thread yesterday and I couldn’t stop thinking about it for various reasons. This post is the one that stands out most. One of the reasons it stands out for me is that you wrote it about 4 years ago, and this is the first time I saw it. Not only does it describe the exact scenario I have been through in the past, but it describes almost exactly what I have been attempting to put into practice… today… 4 years later. It took me way too long to figure out!

I’ve been through the exact situation you described at the begging of the post. And I attempted to do it for approximately 5 years. And it never worked. For the exact reasons you mentioned. I was in the vicious cycle trying to do the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

I discovered Keto about 8 months ago and it worked for me. It helped me break what I now look back upon as an addiction to sugar and junk carbs. Your statement “When you are consuming more proteins and healthy fats and less cheap sugars you will almost always end up consuming less calories and feeling more full” has been 100% true for me. Through Keto I have really cut back and nearly eliminated cheap sugars and I consume way more protein and healthy fats. I know a lot of people on Keto cut down on protein, but I never did. I just focused on cutting out sugars and severely reducing carbs. I definitely feel more full and don’t get those drug addict type cravings for candy and chips that I would get in the past.

So I lost about 15-20 lbs. doing Keto and not working out at all. I kind of hit a plateau and was thinking about what I could do to break through it. I started lifting weights. And in your next post (just after the one I have quoted) you mentioned it is best to “Focus on large, compound movements that engage multiple muscle groups and try to lift heavy and slow.” Again, exactly what I have been doing. I work out 3 times per week, each workout only consists of 3 lifts, and each workout is full body. I don’t really do any ‘isolation’ type lifts. I try and lift heavy and I go slow because I don't want to get hurt.

If you don’t mind, please let me know what your company is called. If you don’t want to post, please PM me. It really does work and helped me break a plateau that, at times, I never thought I could break through.

 

[Jutz]

I am also intrigued by the most recent posts pertaining to fasting. It is another thing I am attempting to work into my routine but it’s a little tricky. In addition the resources that have been mentioned, I thought I would throw another one out there. I was listening to a Joe Rogan podcast clip and David A. Sinclair was on. He talks mainly about his research on Longevity and is a big proponent of fasting. He has a book called:

Lifespan: Why We Age and Why We Don’t Have To

Two things I am attempting to figure out right now, which is purely a scheduling thing, is how to get a long fast in the 16-20 hour range each day, and how to schedule my workout so they are done in a fasted state. I just tried a new schedule last night that I am hoping will work. We shall see.

 

[AAABatteries]

I am also intrigued by the most recent posts pertaining to fasting. It is another thing I am attempting to work into my routine but it’s a little tricky. In addition the resources that have been mentioned, I thought I would throw another one out there. I was listening to a Joe Rogan podcast clip and David A. Sinclair was on. He talks mainly about his research on Longevity and is a big proponent of fasting. He has a book called:

Lifespan: Why We Age and Why We Don’t Have To

Two things I am attempting to figure out right now, which is purely a scheduling thing, is how to get a long fast in the 16-20 hour range each day, and how to schedule my workout so they are done in a fasted state. I just tried a new schedule last night that I am hoping will work. We shall see.

When I first started doing some fasting years back I struggled with it but now doing 16/8 or 20/4 IF is super easy and honestly 24-36 hour ones are pretty simple too. It's when I get in to the two full days of nothing that my body starts to complain to me. To me fasting is great if you aren't overeating during your other meals. Simple math - if I IF every day and then consume the same amount at lunch/dinner then you will lose. But moreso for me, I do IF for the blood sugar/insulin benefits.

 

[AAABatteries]

Yes. Chaka is referring to it. Going from virtually no exercise to working hard five days a week is very drastic change in lifestyle. Combine the excess calorie burn with a low calorie diet that most people try to follow when they’re trying to lose weight and you can actually damage your metabolism not to mention hurt your knees and ankles and be sore and tired all the time. Most people have enough willpower to put up with the hunger and the soreness for few months at most and during those few months they may lose some weight but they give up, and rightfully so because no one wants to be hungry all the time and have everything hurt.

Then they assume that exercise just really isn’t for them and they go back to their former life style usually gaining more weight than they lost because their few months of trying to burn way more calories than they consumes just causes their body to turn down their metabolism.

In my opinion, and of course this opinion comports with the philosophy that my company teaches, is to begin most unfit people on a combination of moderate intensity, infrequent strength training with a diet that focuses not on total calories consumed but rather a low sugar, anti-inflammatory nutritional program.

When you are consuming more proteins and healthy fats and less cheap sugars you will almost always end up consuming less calories and feeling more full. And if you are training your muscles and causing your body to put its resources towards rebuilding muscle, it will start an upward spiral of body fat burning that doesn’t require an hour a day of exercise and certainly doesn’t require you to starve yourself.

But, the weight-loss results will be steady but relatively unimpressive in the first few months as you are selling your body‘s metabolism and building it to become a long-term fat burning machine.

So you have to take a medium term to long-term approach to reaching your goals, especially if you are more than 40 or 50 pounds overweight.

I read this thread yesterday and I couldn’t stop thinking about it for various reasons. This post is the one that stands out most. One of the reasons it stands out for me is that you wrote it about 4 years ago, and this is the first time I saw it. Not only does it describe the exact scenario I have been through in the past, but it describes almost exactly what I have been attempting to put into practice… today… 4 years later. It took me way too long to figure out!

I’ve been through the exact situation you described at the begging of the post. And I attempted to do it for approximately 5 years. And it never worked. For the exact reasons you mentioned. I was in the vicious cycle trying to do the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

I discovered Keto about 8 months ago and it worked for me. It helped me break what I now look back upon as an addiction to sugar and junk carbs. Your statement “When you are consuming more proteins and healthy fats and less cheap sugars you will almost always end up consuming less calories and feeling more full” has been 100% true for me. Through Keto I have really cut back and nearly eliminated cheap sugars and I consume way more protein and healthy fats. I know a lot of people on Keto cut down on protein, but I never did. I just focused on cutting out sugars and severely reducing carbs. I definitely feel more full and don’t get those drug addict type cravings for candy and chips that I would get in the past.

So I lost about 15-20 lbs. doing Keto and not working out at all. I kind of hit a plateau and was thinking about what I could do to break through it. I started lifting weights. And in your next post (just after the one I have quoted) you mentioned it is best to “Focus on large, compound movements that engage multiple muscle groups and try to lift heavy and slow.” Again, exactly what I have been doing. I work out 3 times per week, each workout only consists of 3 lifts, and each workout is full body. I don’t really do any ‘isolation’ type lifts. I try and lift heavy and I go slow because I don't want to get hurt.

If you don’t mind, please let me know what your company is called. If you don’t want to post, please PM me. It really does work and helped me break a plateau that, at times, I never thought I could break through.

I know Term isn't a big proponent of Keto - in particular dirty Keto - but I've always had good success with it. Issue is either staying on it and eating clean Keto or figuring out a good maintenance model. There's a lot that's appealing to Keto (for me) but with all the benefits the biggest one to me is not being hungry. When I really go full-bore Keto I almost have to remind myself to eat. I'm not sure which hormone it is that drives hunger/satiety but for me it seems like Keto really has a big impact on that. But it's undeniably hard to stay on it long-term - but so is any diet. I think if I could pick a diet, it would be a Mediterranean/Keto hybrid.

 

[Jutz]

I know Term isn't a big proponent of Keto - in particular dirty Keto - but I've always had good success with it. Issue is either staying on it and eating clean Keto or figuring out a good maintenance model. There's a lot that's appealing to Keto (for me) but with all the benefits the biggest one to me is not being hungry. When I really go full-bore Keto I almost have to remind myself to eat. I'm not sure which hormone it is that drives hunger/satiety but for me it seems like Keto really has a big impact on that. But it's undeniably hard to stay on it long-term - but so is any diet. I think if I could pick a diet, it would be a Mediterranean/Keto hybrid.

Great post. A lot of things are coming to mind as I read this. Luckily for me I was introduced to Keto by watching a bunch of youtube videos by Thomas DeLauer and he hates dirty Keto. So I learned the right way. Also, you mention the Keto / Medeterranian hybrid… Thomas DeLauer eventually came to the conclusion that his preferred Keto diet is where Medeterranian and Keto overlap and he has a video on that very subject. He even participated in a cookbook called The New Mediterranean Diet Cookbook: The Optimal Keto-Friendly Diet that Burns Fat, Promotes Longevity, and Prevents Chronic Disease. I bought the book, but to be honest haven’t tried any recipes from it. I have used it as a reference for what foods overlap the 2 diets… but point being I agree that is the best version of Keto and it is what I aim for.

You mention the most appealing part of Keto for you is not being hungry. I completely agree. When I was stuck in the circle of cutting calories while simultaneously exercising more I would constantly get these overwhelming feelings of hunger and couldn’t stop myself from eventually binging. Following a Keto diet is the first time in my life where I haven’t had those feelings of hunger. I believe you likened it to a smoker attempting to quit smoking, and I think that is a good analogy… and this diet is the fist time I have been able to break the addiction. And while I wouldn’t say I have a lot more energy on Keto, I will say that I no longer feel like I need to take a nap at 2:30pm everyday like I used to.

I am definitely worried about it being hard to stay on long term. As I mentioned I am only about 8 months in. I often question, can I do this for a year? Can I do it for 2 years? How long realistically can this go for? I honestly don’t know. The one thing that that helps me stick with it is the way makes me feel when I go off a Keto diet. I’ve definitely ‘fallen off the Keto wagon’ a few days here or there and any time I do I just feel like absolute crap. That feeling is what keeps me in line. Part of me realizes I most likely will not be able to do this the rest of my life, but another part of me realizes that what I am learning by going through this process will help me for the rest of my life. I agree that there is a ‘hybrid’ or a ‘cycle’ that will be the long term answer, but for now I am going to enjoy the process.

 

[AAABatteries]

I know Term isn't a big proponent of Keto - in particular dirty Keto - but I've always had good success with it. Issue is either staying on it and eating clean Keto or figuring out a good maintenance model. There's a lot that's appealing to Keto (for me) but with all the benefits the biggest one to me is not being hungry. When I really go full-bore Keto I almost have to remind myself to eat. I'm not sure which hormone it is that drives hunger/satiety but for me it seems like Keto really has a big impact on that. But it's undeniably hard to stay on it long-term - but so is any diet. I think if I could pick a diet, it would be a Mediterranean/Keto hybrid.

Great post. A lot of things are coming to mind as I read this. Luckily for me I was introduced to Keto by watching a bunch of youtube videos by Thomas DeLauer and he hates dirty Keto. So I learned the right way. Also, you mention the Keto / Medeterranian hybrid… Thomas DeLauer eventually came to the conclusion that his preferred Keto diet is where Medeterranian and Keto overlap and he has a video on that very subject. He even participated in a cookbook called The New Mediterranean Diet Cookbook: The Optimal Keto-Friendly Diet that Burns Fat, Promotes Longevity, and Prevents Chronic Disease. I bought the book, but to be honest haven’t tried any recipes from it. I have used it as a reference for what foods overlap the 2 diets… but point being I agree that is the best version of Keto and it is what I aim for.

You mention the most appealing part of Keto for you is not being hungry. I completely agree. When I was stuck in the circle of cutting calories while simultaneously exercising more I would constantly get these overwhelming feelings of hunger and couldn’t stop myself from eventually binging. Following a Keto diet is the first time in my life where I haven’t had those feelings of hunger. I believe you likened it to a smoker attempting to quit smoking, and I think that is a good analogy… and this diet is the fist time I have been able to break the addiction. And while I wouldn’t say I have a lot more energy on Keto, I will say that I no longer feel like I need to take a nap at 2:30pm everyday like I used to.

I am definitely worried about it being hard to stay on long term. As I mentioned I am only about 8 months in. I often question, can I do this for a year? Can I do it for 2 years? How long realistically can this go for? I honestly don’t know. The one thing that that helps me stick with it is the way makes me feel when I go off a Keto diet. I’ve definitely ‘fallen off the Keto wagon’ a few days here or there and any time I do I just feel like absolute crap. That feeling is what keeps me in line. Part of me realizes I most likely will not be able to do this the rest of my life, but another part of me realizes that what I am learning by going through this process will help me for the rest of my life. I agree that there is a ‘hybrid’ or a ‘cycle’ that will be the long term answer, but for now I am going to enjoy the process.

You mention smoking and the mechanism for drinking seems similar to me in regards to your last paragraph. An alcoholic consciously knows they shouldn’t have even a single drink. I sometimes feel the same way when I’m eating Keto. One small piece of candy or pasta dish and my body starts craving it almost immediately.

I recognize this isn’t a perfect analogy and I’m in no way trying to downplay alcoholism. But I think that is the part that folks that don’t struggle don’t “understand” in the same way I don’t “understand” how someone can’t drink moderately.

 

[Terminalxylem]

Yes. Chaka is referring to it. Going from virtually no exercise to working hard five days a week is very drastic change in lifestyle. Combine the excess calorie burn with a low calorie diet that most people try to follow when they’re trying to lose weight and you can actually damage your metabolism not to mention hurt your knees and ankles and be sore and tired all the time. Most people have enough willpower to put up with the hunger and the soreness for few months at most and during those few months they may lose some weight but they give up, and rightfully so because no one wants to be hungry all the time and have everything hurt.

Then they assume that exercise just really isn’t for them and they go back to their former life style usually gaining more weight than they lost because their few months of trying to burn way more calories than they consumes just causes their body to turn down their metabolism.

In my opinion, and of course this opinion comports with the philosophy that my company teaches, is to begin most unfit people on a combination of moderate intensity, infrequent strength training with a diet that focuses not on total calories consumed but rather a low sugar, anti-inflammatory nutritional program.

When you are consuming more proteins and healthy fats and less cheap sugars you will almost always end up consuming less calories and feeling more full. And if you are training your muscles and causing your body to put its resources towards rebuilding muscle, it will start an upward spiral of body fat burning that doesn’t require an hour a day of exercise and certainly doesn’t require you to starve yourself.

But, the weight-loss results will be steady but relatively unimpressive in the first few months as you are selling your body‘s metabolism and building it to become a long-term fat burning machine.

So you have to take a medium term to long-term approach to reaching your goals, especially if you are more than 40 or 50 pounds overweight.

I read this thread yesterday and I couldn’t stop thinking about it for various reasons. This post is the one that stands out most. One of the reasons it stands out for me is that you wrote it about 4 years ago, and this is the first time I saw it. Not only does it describe the exact scenario I have been through in the past, but it describes almost exactly what I have been attempting to put into practice… today… 4 years later. It took me way too long to figure out!

I’ve been through the exact situation you described at the begging of the post. And I attempted to do it for approximately 5 years. And it never worked. For the exact reasons you mentioned. I was in the vicious cycle trying to do the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

I discovered Keto about 8 months ago and it worked for me. It helped me break what I now look back upon as an addiction to sugar and junk carbs. Your statement “When you are consuming more proteins and healthy fats and less cheap sugars you will almost always end up consuming less calories and feeling more full” has been 100% true for me. Through Keto I have really cut back and nearly eliminated cheap sugars and I consume way more protein and healthy fats. I know a lot of people on Keto cut down on protein, but I never did. I just focused on cutting out sugars and severely reducing carbs. I definitely feel more full and don’t get those drug addict type cravings for candy and chips that I would get in the past.

So I lost about 15-20 lbs. doing Keto and not working out at all. I kind of hit a plateau and was thinking about what I could do to break through it. I started lifting weights. And in your next post (just after the one I have quoted) you mentioned it is best to “Focus on large, compound movements that engage multiple muscle groups and try to lift heavy and slow.” Again, exactly what I have been doing. I work out 3 times per week, each workout only consists of 3 lifts, and each workout is full body. I don’t really do any ‘isolation’ type lifts. I try and lift heavy and I go slow because I don't want to get hurt.

If you don’t mind, please let me know what your company is called. If you don’t want to post, please PM me. It really does work and helped me break a plateau that, at times, I never thought I could break through.

I know Term isn't a big proponent of Keto - in particular dirty Keto - but I've always had good success with it. Issue is either staying on it and eating clean Keto or figuring out a good maintenance model. There's a lot that's appealing to Keto (for me) but with all the benefits the biggest one to me is not being hungry. When I really go full-bore Keto I almost have to remind myself to eat. I'm not sure which hormone it is that drives hunger/satiety but for me it seems like Keto really has a big impact on that. But it's undeniably hard to stay on it long-term - but so is any diet. I think if I could pick a diet, it would be a Mediterranean/Keto hybrid.

You‘re absolutely correct that I don’t love keto. Without going into it too much, I’ll restate: No long lived population eats that way, nor has any in the history of mankind, TMK. On the contrary, all the “blue zones” eat a bunch of carbohydrates. I don’t think they fast either.

Biochemically, it doesn‘t make sense to exclude/minimize the macronutrient class central to producing our body’s preferred fuel: glucose. And I feel like too many ketophiles conflate all “carbs” with junk food, while simultaneously focusing on low nutrient fatty, meaty substitutes. I suppose it is possible to concoct a plant-based, minimally processed, ketogenic diet with adequate fiber, but that’s not garden variety keto.

All that said, I’ve grown to appreciate the reality of dieting: anything that promotes sustained weight loss is preferable to the alternative. On a population level, whatever uptick we may see in diseases due to overconsumption of animal fats and proteins will likely be offset by a decrease in obesity-related ailments. But that requires the chosen diet be sustainable. While ultra low carbohydrate diets are demonstrably better for losing weight short term (largely due to their effect on satiety), I’ve not seen anything that suggests they’re a long term solution. And weight yo-yoing might be worse than not dieting at all.

As far as the topic of this thread, it remains unclear if fasting is important for dietary success, or disease prevention. But I’m intrigued by the data thus far.

Out of curiosity, what prevents you from consuming a standard Mediterranean diet, with IF thrown in for good measure? Too hungry?

 

[AAABatteries]

Out of curiosity, what prevents you from consuming a standard Mediterranean diet, with IF thrown in for good measure? Too hungry?

I think the simple answer to this for me is years of poor eating habits combined with being surrounded by friends and family who would unintentionally not be supportive. And that’s not to blame anyone else for my issues - it’s just hard when no one around you eats that way.

But I’m doing pretty good - I’ve established some better eating habits over the last five years - cut out all sugar sodas, drink more water, haven’t had sweet tea in years, eliminated almost all bread except high fiber ones like Dave’s Killer bread, eat salads and veggies.

And I agree with you that Keto isn’t optimal but I also strongly feel it’s a good tool for many who can’t use willpower to lose weight - any negatives Keto may have for then are outweighed by all the positives. My story is anecdotal but I’ve lost a ton of weight and always had exceptional metrics after doing a stretch of Keto. Honestly I think the key issue with most who do Keto is they don’t do clean Keto and use it almost as a hack.

 

[Joe Bryant]

As far as the topic of this thread, it remains unclear if fasting is important for dietary success, or disease prevention. But I’m intrigued by the data thus far.

Out of curiosity, what prevents you from consuming a standard Mediterranean diet, with IF thrown in for good measure? Too hungry?

In your opinion, is there an optimal diet you recommend? Mediterranean diet? Apologies if honda.

 

[massraider]

You‘re absolutely correct that I don’t love keto. Without going into it too much, I’ll restate: No long lived population eats that way, nor has any in the history of mankind, TMK.

Exactly.
Not a long term diet to be healthy.

 

[AAABatteries]

You‘re absolutely correct that I don’t love keto. Without going into it too much, I’ll restate: No long lived population eats that way, nor has any in the history of mankind, TMK.

Exactly.
Not a long term diet to be healthy.

I don't think there's any evidence to this either way.

 

[belljr]

You‘re absolutely correct that I don’t love keto. Without going into it too much, I’ll restate: No long lived population eats that way, nor has any in the history of mankind, TMK.

Exactly.
Not a long term diet to be healthy.

I don't think there's any evidence to this either way.

Yeah, I think obviously a dirty keto is not healthy long term but dont see why clean keto wouldnt be

 

[AAABatteries]

You‘re absolutely correct that I don’t love keto. Without going into it too much, I’ll restate: No long lived population eats that way, nor has any in the history of mankind, TMK.

Exactly.
Not a long term diet to be healthy.

I don't think there's any evidence to this either way.

Yeah, I think obviously a dirty keto is not healthy long term but dont see why clean keto wouldnt be

I think even the definition of Keto itself is part of the story. Almost every study I've seen on both sides hold variables in such a way as to somewhat prove their hypothesis - meaning, you don't have to ingest bad fats - it's not a requirement of the diet. You also don't have to do such a severe cutting of carbs. And for certain individuals the benefits outweigh any negatives. Nobody I know that is serious really thinks you can ingest bacon, hotdogs and copious amounts of cheese and be healthy. It's possible to eat low-glycemic fruits and vegetables on Keto.

 

[AAABatteries]

But to be sure - if I could magically take a 20 year old human with zero issues and start him on a diet - I wouldn't pick what most people do on Keto - far from it.

The other thing is - we need to always remember that everyone is unique so what works for you doesn't work for everyone. Including Keto.

 

[belljr]

You‘re absolutely correct that I don’t love keto. Without going into it too much, I’ll restate: No long lived population eats that way, nor has any in the history of mankind, TMK.

Exactly.
Not a long term diet to be healthy.

I don't think there's any evidence to this either way.

Yeah, I think obviously a dirty keto is not healthy long term but dont see why clean keto wouldnt be

I think even the definition of Keto itself is part of the story. Almost every study I've seen on both sides hold variables in such a way as to somewhat prove their hypothesis - meaning, you don't have to ingest bad fats - it's not a requirement of the diet. You also don't have to do such a severe cutting of carbs. And for certain individuals the benefits outweigh any negatives. Nobody I know that is serious really thinks you can ingest bacon, hotdogs and copious amounts of cheese and be healthy. It's possible to eat low-glycemic fruits and vegetables on Keto.

Agree - now time for some wings for lunch

 

[The Z Machine]

I just read this thread title by replacing the s in fasting with an r. Petty funny thought.

 

[massraider]

The other thing is - we need to always remember that everyone is unique so what works for you doesn't work for everyone. Including Keto

In terms of losing weight, people are different.

In terms of nutrients the body needs, and aging well, not unique at all.

 

[AAABatteries]

The other thing is - we need to always remember that everyone is unique so what works for you doesn't work for everyone. Including Keto

In terms of losing weight, people are different.

In terms of nutrients the body needs, and aging well, not unique at all.

Don't disagree but that doesn't really address Keto.

 

[massraider]

Don't disagree but that doesn't really address Keto

You are right, and my sermon best left to another thread.

 

[AAABatteries]

Don't disagree but that doesn't really address Keto

You are right, and my sermon best left to another thread.

No worries - I'm not religious about this stuff (to follow on your word) - would enjoy your perspective and I'm sure others would too. I think to expand on my viewpoint further - and I've done this before - Keto and other diets, including Veganism get bad raps because of they way people implement them.

You can have unhealthy Vegans and very healthy Keto people. My stance is we have a lot in common on what we all know is bad. After that the religious war just distracts from people getting somewhat healthy. Do what works for you and you can stick with.

But please, I'm now curious your thoughts - if that means a DM then please share if you are so inclined.

 

[Mister CIA]

I just read this thread title by replacing the s in fasting with an r. Petty funny thought.

It's a sure fire way to lose weight. Science.

 

[Northern Voice]

I know a lot of people who have tons of success with keto. They seem to lose 20-25 pounds on it every year!

 

[The Z Machine]

I just read this thread title by replacing the s in fasting with an r. Petty funny thought.

It's a sure fire way to lose weight. Science.

That made my laugh till I cried. I'm a simple man.

 

[AAABatteries]

I know a lot of people who have tons of success with keto. They seem to lose 20-25 pounds on it every year!

You know a lot of fatties.

 

[Terminalxylem]

As far as the topic of this thread, it remains unclear if fasting is important for dietary success, or disease prevention. But I’m intrigued by the data thus far.

Out of curiosity, what prevents you from consuming a standard Mediterranean diet, with IF thrown in for good measure? Too hungry?

In your opinion, is there an optimal diet you recommend? Mediterranean diet? Apologies if honda.

The is no single diet optimal for everyone, but eating minimally processed, plant-based foods, coupled with consistent physical activity, seems common in places where people live long, AKA “Blue Zones”. If you prefer a plan supported by the medical literature, it’s hard to beat Mediterranean and DASH diets, plus there’s decent data for Ornish. All those diets are relatively carbohydrate rich, while being low in fat and animal protein.

What about populations who consume predominantly animal fats and proteins, the cornerstones of most carbohydrate-restricted/keto diets? Primitive hunter-gatherers died at an early age, largely from infectious diseases, so it’s hard to draw many conclusions about what they ate (though an interesting side discussion is how such diets influence immunity). Among modern populations there aren’t many examples, but two frequently cited are the Inuit and Masai. They rely on eating a bunch of seal and bush meat, respectively. Do they live long, and suffer less disease than people in Blue Zones? Not exactly, plus their overall caloric intake and physical activity levels are a far cry from the typical American.

Even though gaining weight takes years-decades of bad dietary choices, people want a quick fix to lose it. In this regard, low carbohydrate diets are appealing, as short-term weight loss is superior to conventional caloric restriction. But it isn’t sustainable, nor is it healthy imo. Better to lose weight slowly and steadily, by adopting healthy habits.

With keto, I feel like we’re collectively falling into the same pop-nutrition traps that accompanied the low-fat diets of our youth. Instead of focusing on healthy foods, we demonize an entire class of macronutrient, nearly eliminate that “macro”, and use science to make the remaining stuff palatable. In the process, we bastardize foods with artificial sweeteners, salt, etc. and/or throw in gratuitous “good“ macros, like protein. No matter how they’re prepared, bacon and cheese crisps aren’t healthy. Whatever happened to eating a balanced diet?

Don’t get me wrong, low carbohydrate diets can work for some people. And It‘s even possible to concoct a healthy (”clean”) keto menu. But it’s a lot more sustainable to focus on eating healthy foods, rather than good and bad macronutrients.

Michael Pollan isn’t a scientist, but a really effective writer and investigative journalist imo. He’s written a lot on the subject, in books like The Omnivores Dilemma, Food Rules, and In Defense of Food. I like his answer to your question:

Eat food.
Not too much.
Mostly plants.

 

[Terminalxylem]

You‘re absolutely correct that I don’t love keto. Without going into it too much, I’ll restate: No long lived population eats that way, nor has any in the history of mankind, TMK.

Exactly.
Not a long term diet to be healthy.

I don't think there's any evidence to this either way.

Yeah, I think obviously a dirty keto is not healthy long term but dont see why clean keto wouldnt be

I think even the definition of Keto itself is part of the story. Almost every study I've seen on both sides hold variables in such a way as to somewhat prove their hypothesis - meaning, you don't have to ingest bad fats - it's not a requirement of the diet. You also don't have to do such a severe cutting of carbs. And for certain individuals the benefits outweigh any negatives. Nobody I know that is serious really thinks you can ingest bacon, hotdogs and copious amounts of cheese and be healthy. It's possible to eat low-glycemic fruits and vegetables on Keto.

From the people I’ve encountered, I’m not so sure on the bolded. Ok, maybe not exclusively that stuff, but eating it with any frequency isn’t healthful.

And while it’s possible to eat low-glycemic f & v on keto, the problem is, that’s not the diet’s emphasis. Fruits and veggies should be eaten in copious amounts, probably without worrying too much about their glycemic index.

 

[Joe Bryant]

As far as the topic of this thread, it remains unclear if fasting is important for dietary success, or disease prevention. But I’m intrigued by the data thus far.

Out of curiosity, what prevents you from consuming a standard Mediterranean diet, with IF thrown in for good measure? Too hungry?

In your opinion, is there an optimal diet you recommend? Mediterranean diet? Apologies if honda.

The is no single diet optimal for everyone, but eating minimally processed, plant-based foods, coupled with consistent physical activity, seems common in places where people live long, AKA “Blue Zones”. If you prefer a plan supported by the medical literature, it’s hard to beat Mediterranean and DASH diets, plus there’s decent data for Ornish. All those diets are relatively carbohydrate rich, while being low in fat and animal protein.

What about populations who consume predominantly animal fats and proteins, the cornerstones of most carbohydrate-restricted/keto diets? Primitive hunter-gatherers died at an early age, largely from infectious diseases, so it’s hard to draw many conclusions about what they ate (though an interesting side discussion is how such diets influence immunity). Among modern populations there aren’t many examples, but two frequently cited are the Inuit and Masai. They rely on eating a bunch of seal and bush meat, respectively. Do they live long, and suffer less disease than people in Blue Zones? Not exactly, plus their overall caloric intake and physical activity levels are a far cry from the typical American.

Even though gaining weight takes years-decades of bad dietary choices, people want a quick fix to lose it. In this regard, low carbohydrate diets are appealing, as short-term weight loss is superior to conventional caloric restriction. But it isn’t sustainable, nor is it healthy imo. Better to lose weight slowly and steadily, by adopting healthy habits.

With keto, I feel like we’re collectively falling into the same pop-nutrition traps that accompanied the low-fat diets of our youth. Instead of focusing on healthy foods, we demonize an entire class of macronutrient, nearly eliminate that “macro”, and use science to make the remaining stuff palatable. In the process, we bastardize foods with artificial sweeteners, salt, etc. and/or throw in gratuitous “good“ macros, like protein. No matter how they’re prepared, bacon and cheese crisps aren’t healthy. Whatever happened to eating a balanced diet?

Don’t get me wrong, low carbohydrate diets can work for some people. And It‘s even possible to concoct a healthy (”clean”) keto menu. But it’s a lot more sustainable to focus on eating healthy foods, rather than good and bad macronutrients.

Michael Pollan isn’t a scientist, but a really effective writer and investigative journalist imo. He’s written a lot on the subject, in books like The Omnivores Dilemma, Food Rules, and In Defense of Food. I like his answer to your question:

Eat food.
Not too much.
Mostly plants.

Thanks. I've always like Pollan's answer on this.

 

[AAABatteries]

From the people I’ve encountered, I’m not so sure on the bolded. Ok, maybe not exclusively that stuff, but eating it with any frequency isn’t healthful.

I agree eating those things with any frequency isn’t good.

And while it’s possible to eat low-glycemic f & v on keto, the problem is, that’s not the diet’s emphasis. Fruits and veggies should be eaten in copious amounts, probably without worrying too much about their glycemic index.

I’m sold on vegetables but for what it’s worth I think some fruits are oversold - berries are good but if you are getting vitamins and fiber there’s no compelling reason to eat bananas and grapes (for example).

I think diet zealots are just that - zealots. But there’s very few people who eat real foods all the time and exercise that aren’t moderately healthy (ignoring genetics). That can be eating meat, nuts, eggs, veggies, fish, fruits, etc. You can take those items and have a Vegan diet or Mediterranean or Carnivore. I’m much more concerned with eliminating sugar and processed foods.

But you can’t have my beer - yet.

 

[Terminalxylem]

From the people I’ve encountered, I’m not so sure on the bolded. Ok, maybe not exclusively that stuff, but eating it with any frequency isn’t healthful.

I agree eating those things with any frequency isn’t good.

And while it’s possible to eat low-glycemic f & v on keto, the problem is, that’s not the diet’s emphasis. Fruits and veggies should be eaten in copious amounts, probably without worrying too much about their glycemic index.

I’m sold on vegetables but for what it’s worth I think some fruits are oversold - berries are good but if you are getting vitamins and fiber there’s no compelling reason to eat bananas and grapes (for example).

I think diet zealots are just that - zealots. But there’s very few people who eat real foods all the time and exercise that aren’t moderately healthy (ignoring genetics). That can be eating meat, nuts, eggs, veggies, fish, fruits, etc. You can take those items and have a Vegan diet or Mediterranean or Carnivore. I’m much more concerned with eliminating sugar and processed foods.

But you can’t have my beer - yet.

This is a reasonable take, for the most part. But I’d still take a less healthful fruit over most any meat. That’s not to say meat is devoid of nutritional value, but there’s gotta be a reason(s) every long-lived population eats it sparingly, if at all.

I’d go so far as to say a healthful diet should eliminate processed foods, added sugar, and minimize animal protein, probably in that order. Cutting out booze is also somewhere on that list, as people seem to have difficulty with moderation.