massraider
Footballguy
Yeah, they should. It's cool they punished him for being a rotten human being.
Trust me, TO didn't care about being first ballot when he found out there wasn't a cash prize.
#broke
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Favre, Owens HOF Nominees (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter dutch
- Start date
Trust me, TO didn't care about being first ballot when he found out there wasn't a cash prize.
#broke
Milkman
Footballguy
I know what you're saying but he really is in the conversation for best WR ever. He was a diva/selfish and not a great teammate but he was so good and so dominant with little help from his teammates that I think he should have still got in.
Lack of a ring did Owens in. If you eliminate Owens last two seasons giving him the same number as Harrison, they match up pretty closely. Looking exclusively at talent I'd take Owens. If I was a GM trying to win a title I'd take Harrison. They probably should have both gotten in but Dungy likely pushed Owens out. Owens is a mortal lock next year.
Milkman
Footballguy
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Tau837
Footballguy
He couldn't have played with Manning for 10 years. He couldn't play with any QB for longer than 5 years, and he threw that QB (Garcia) under the bus. He was a jerk, and that likely mattered in this process.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
It would have had to matter one hell of a lot, because his game is about as clear cut 1st ballot HOF as it gets. Sad.
Rove!
Footballguy
gianmarco
Footballguy
Except he's not because I think Moss is eligible next year. And I could see Moss POSSIBLY jumping TO and also for reasons I'll explain below.
That said, on local sports radio here, one of the writers here who votes each year for the HOF explained why TO may not have gotten in. Guys like Holt and Bruce are also eligible and it's very possible that TO will have to wait his turn. The explanation given was that these guys are all HOF worthy and they used to get NONE of these guys in because the votes would constantly get split when they went up against each other. So they formed an unwritten rule that the guys just went in one at a time, in turn, to clear up the logjam. So even if a guy like TO is otherwise more worthy in a vacuum, since these other guys have waited, they'll likely get in first and TO will just have to wait his turn.
It's not ideal, but he makes a good point. Prior to doing it the way they do it now, none of these guys were getting in because some argued for Harrison, some argued for Holt, some argued for TO and none of them got enough votes to make it in.
HOF does not matter much to me but seems divide with Dungy and Owens with people is how much off the field stuff factored into their induction or lack of inductions.
I've read some stuff from Peter King, who is a voter, that touches on both.
Dungy's race was discussed and it was a factor as well as what Peter King labeled as something along the lines of him being a mentor to so many young black head coaches. In Dungy's case I don't think it was relevant to bring up his race. I don't view Dungy as a pioneer for black coaches, don't view him as someone like a Jackie Robinson who had to beat down doors for people. I think he's HOF worthy on his own coaching merits and that's the only criteria I'd have liked to see him judged and if that was the only criteria he was judged on he'd get in, just not yet.
Owens off the field antics were discussed and in his case I 100% agree because it impacted the play on the field. King mentioned something about a guy like Michael Irvin getting in due to fact he was a leader and again something along the lines of if that was a criteria to get Irvin in how could the way TO conducted himself not be a factor. Totally agree. I view a players NET contributions to the game. TO gave a lot to the game and his teams and he took a lot. Like Dungy he should be in the HOF on his playing merits, but not giving him the honor of first ballot HOF status was the biggest thing they got right in the whole voting process.
So really if you don't like Dungy getting in or don't like TO not getting in it just boils down to whether or not you feel Dungy's race and TO's antics should have been part of the equation.
I've read some stuff from Peter King, who is a voter, that touches on both.
Dungy's race was discussed and it was a factor as well as what Peter King labeled as something along the lines of him being a mentor to so many young black head coaches. In Dungy's case I don't think it was relevant to bring up his race. I don't view Dungy as a pioneer for black coaches, don't view him as someone like a Jackie Robinson who had to beat down doors for people. I think he's HOF worthy on his own coaching merits and that's the only criteria I'd have liked to see him judged and if that was the only criteria he was judged on he'd get in, just not yet.
Owens off the field antics were discussed and in his case I 100% agree because it impacted the play on the field. King mentioned something about a guy like Michael Irvin getting in due to fact he was a leader and again something along the lines of if that was a criteria to get Irvin in how could the way TO conducted himself not be a factor. Totally agree. I view a players NET contributions to the game. TO gave a lot to the game and his teams and he took a lot. Like Dungy he should be in the HOF on his playing merits, but not giving him the honor of first ballot HOF status was the biggest thing they got right in the whole voting process.
So really if you don't like Dungy getting in or don't like TO not getting in it just boils down to whether or not you feel Dungy's race and TO's antics should have been part of the equation.
dgreen
Footballguy
The HOF really needs to get away from this. Many people think the HOF is watered down and merely very good players are being inducted, but I actually think they have a backlog problem of qualified candidates. And that leads to this "wait your turn" explanation. For one year, I'd like to see them eliminate the restrictions on number of inductees, clear the backlog, and then reassess whether they should have a limit each year. Probably could have nicely accomplished that in 2013 as a 50th year anniversary induction or something.
gianmarco
Footballguy
Completely agree. Too many players belong in the HOF that aren't in. A big part of the problem is that many players now that aren't even HOF worthy (Hall of Very Good guys) have outdone what current older HOF members did. And it's not just a matter of being compared to contemporaries and that the game has changed so much. Many of these HOVG guys are legitimately better than these older players. Then you have actual qualified HOF guys like Holt and TO that SHOULD be first ballot and aren't.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
If they debated TO the player they are all idiots and should be stripped of their voting privileges.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
The "waiting their turn" thing is just stupid.
If 10 guys deserve it one year, 10 should get in. If only 1, or none, so be it.
Putting limits on things sort of defeats the purpose of this whole thing.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Sure, but you can't compare guys now to guys back then. You really can only go by how they played at that time. Given the evolution of the game, coaching, training methods, medical science........................because of these things most of the average players today would be stars 30 years ago if they invented a time machine (and took their coaches and doctors with them).
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Disagree and why it's a good thing they put these things up to a vote and don't let just one persons opinions determine who gets in
Chaka
Footballguy
I don't understand why T.O. gets so much crap when a guy like Favre was essentially a stat-compiling, ####-pic sending, team disrupting, drive killing, pick throwing, petulant, chucker and is revered as one of the greats of his generation worthy of only a 6 second up-down vote to get into the HoF. He is much closer to T.O. as a human being and teammate than he is to Peyton Manning or Tom Brady.
All time great QB no doubt (although entirely overrated) but on so many occasions he was really just a me-first guy who didn't seem to care about his team's success over his own success.
All time great QB no doubt (although entirely overrated) but on so many occasions he was really just a me-first guy who didn't seem to care about his team's success over his own success.
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SacramentoBob
Footballguy
TO belongs in the HoF over Holt and Bruce and any other WR not named Moss.
Again I disagree on putting a number on the inductions. To many and dilutes the proper attention each candidate deserves.
I agree on not waiting the turn if you are talking about something like TO has to wait because Marvin had to get in first or something. The waiting in line part I don't get, but I do like limits on numbers for each season. As is I think it's to high already.
massraider
Footballguy
Last WR that got in on first ballot was Jerry Rice.
TO was all over ESPN today, complaining he was disrespected, and that 'something needs to be done'.
Keep talking, jerky.
TO was all over ESPN today, complaining he was disrespected, and that 'something needs to be done'.
Keep talking, jerky.
grateful zed
Footballguy
Chaka
Footballguy
Chaka
Footballguy
Not really. Manning and Brady are the very definition of professionals in their actions and demeanor. Favre was a me first yokel with a great smile and cannon on his right arm. His annual "will-he-won't-he" LOOKATME fest for the last six years of his career was terrible and he spent years pouting his way out of Green Bay.
Great guy to hang out with I'm sure, tons of fun to watch on the field but he gets so much forgiveness for stuff that others are vilified for. And frankly he is overrated as a QB.
Milkman
Footballguy
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
Pathetic that being a jerk matters. Really pathetic. Even moreso when a murderer at the same position gets in over him.Just Win Baby said:
Thunderlips
Footballguy
Jerry Rice is the best WR of All-Time. Period. Woulda/Coulda/Shoulda arguments that favor T.O. don't jibe and are lame as I'm sure there's a number of players that woulda/coulda/shoulda been the GOAT if they only had other talent around them.\
That being said....T.O. is definitively a top 5 (3?) WR of all time and no putting him in on the First Ballot looks stupid; particularly if the argument against him getting in is "character flaws". Are they going another Top 5 (3?) WR accountable for his character flaws when he's up to get in?.....
That being said....T.O. is definitively a top 5 (3?) WR of all time and no putting him in on the First Ballot looks stupid; particularly if the argument against him getting in is "character flaws". Are they going another Top 5 (3?) WR accountable for his character flaws when he's up to get in?.....
massraider
Footballguy
Which claim? That he was terrible? Or that people made excuses?grateful zed said:
Yenrub
Footballguy
Harrison retired in 2008 so he has been waiting longer
How is Owens even eligible this year? I thought the waiting period was 5 years after retirement.
It's been 5 years just does not seem like it because every off season he runs his mouth about how he could help a team if they'd just give him a shot.
SacramentoBob
Footballguy
TO would still be productive if a team picked him up right now.
And yet in 5 years of begging no one wanted anything to do with him.
Which is all really odd to me after reading this thread. I've discovered it's not even a debate if he's a top 5 WR of all time, that he carried his team to the SB one year without even playing in a playoff game, which is freaking amazing right there and I've discovered he's even a better teammate that Brett Favre among other things.
It's just crazy that with all that going for him, and actually producing fairly well the last year he played, that in 5 years of begging the only football job he got was on an Arena team that eventually cut him just because this great teammate refused to play in some critical games.
massraider
Footballguy
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Tau837
Footballguy
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
And let's not forget that T.O. was last seen in the NFL being cut by the Seattle Seahawks, a team at the time that was in dire need of playmaking WRs.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Good God how old was he then? So he is getting HOF points taken away now for hanging on too long?
massraider
Footballguy
No one saying his numbers don't support inclusion. Is anyone saying he's NOT a Hall of Famer?
He didn't get in first ballot. Big deal. As travesty's go, that ranks somewhere below my car not starting.
Really, I have to ask: Why does anyone give a flying fig if this jerk didn't get in the HOF first ballot?
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Atwater, Coryell & Morten Andersen deserve to be in.
The NFL should send Coryell's estate a royalty check.
It's nuts they let Stabler in *now, that's a guy who would have loved and appreciated the respect while alive.
The NFL should send Coryell's estate a royalty check.
It's nuts they let Stabler in *now, that's a guy who would have loved and appreciated the respect while alive.
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Ghost Rider
Footballguy
When Rice was 42? Yep, big strike against him.
What's even funnier is, Owens' best season wasn't even as good as Rice's FIVE best seasons.
msommer
Footballguy
dgreen
Footballguy
I see 5 First Ballot WRs: Rice, Largent, Warfield, Alworth, Berry. Hutson should also be considered First Ballot since he was part of the first class in 1963. So, if there's value in being First Ballot, then there's 6 receivers that someone could make some type of argument as better than Owens. Obviously Moss is another, making 7. And, in my mind, Fitz will potentially enter the discussion.
I see no problem with someone arguing Owens is top 5, but I also don't think we should pretend he should be on every reasonable person's top 5 list. It would be perfectly legitimate to have a top 5 list that excludes T.O..
zoonation
Footballguy
I agree that, in certain situations, a player's antics or off field behaviour can be a factor in whether they get in or not. But in T.O.'s case, he was so dominant and easily a top 5 WR all-time. He should automatically go in on performance alone. By not admitting him based on subjective factors that matter to the voters it turns the Hall into a club. The Hall should be reserved for the truly greats of the game. T.O. truly was one of the best receivers to ever play the game. He is, in my view, a no brainer first balloter.
