FBGs vs Kasparov- chess game- Draw agreed to (2 Viewers)

[timschochet]

I doubt it.  He only has three other pieces he can move.  Moving the king doesn't seem to have any advantage.  Pushing the d-pawn would be dumb.  Don't see where he moves the bishop.  And there doesn't seem to be a better move for his rook.  But who knows? 

Well then consider this: Kaspy doesn't want a draw. If he did he probably would have played Bb6. He wants to win. 

So what if after Kd7 Ra7+ Ke8? If Kaspy is looking to avoid a draw he'll make a move other than Ra8 and that could be to our advantage. On the other hand, if he plays Ra8 we play Kd7 a second time, except this time when he plays Ra7+ we play Kd6. What do you think? 

 

[SacramentoBob]

tim, no way White wins this game unless we drop a piece.  

 

[timschochet]

tim, no way White wins this game unless we drop a piece.  

OK. Well then Kd7 and Kd6 looks like the best moves to me. 

 

[Aerial Assault]

Well then consider this: Kaspy doesn't want a draw. If he did he probably would have played Bb6. He wants to win. 

So what if after Kd7 Ra7+ Ke8? If Kaspy is looking to avoid a draw he'll make a move other than Ra8 and that could be to our advantage. On the other hand, if he plays Ra8 we play Kd7 a second time, except this time when he plays Ra7+ we play Kd6. What do you think? 

Well, that's an interesting way of getting intel on your opponent's thinking.     But I think you are doing a Grand Moff Tarkin here and overestimating white's chances.  Of course, that didn't turn out too well for Tarkin.  You know, if he wants a win he may come up with something other than Ra7+.  In any case I think Kd7 *once* is the only move for now.  (Well, wilk did think that Rxd5 was a possible answer to Bf2 but I hate that because of the Bh4 answer and then we're kinda unnecessarily boned.)   

(and please, no Star Wars fans pointing out that it was Shall I Get Your Shuttle Guy, not Tarkin, who was "overestimating their chances")

 

[Wilk]

What?????    

Well consider that bullet dodged.  Geez. 

I don't think so. Think this gives us trouble.

I think we need to free up our bishop with kd7.

Rxa7+...kd6

 

[Aerial Assault]

I don't think so. Think this gives us trouble.

I think we need to free up our bishop with kd7.

Rxa7+...kd6

Good; I think that's a consensus. 

 

[Wilk]

Quote messing up on my phone, but i agree with bob.

 

[Green and Gold]

Whaddya say Wilk? You were the only guy who saw Bf2 as a possibility. kd7? 

What about f6 to stop Bh4?  That way we aren't outright losing the f pawn after Ra7, and then if Bh4 anyway Kd7 looks good.

Note that I have just caught up with this thread and haven't looked at everyone's lines, so maybe this was refuted already.

 

[Green and Gold]

Never mind, I went back and saw this was already looked at.

 

[Aerial Assault]

What about f6 to stop Bh4?  That way we aren't outright losing the f pawn after Ra7, and then if Bh4 anyway Kd7 looks good.

Note that I have just caught up with this thread and haven't looked at everyone's lines, so maybe this was refuted already.

tim discussed it at some length and, I believe, refuted it or decided it wasn't worth it.  For me, it leaves the pin in place and isn't wise.  How do you see the line going? 

 

[Wilk]

Well then consider this: Kaspy doesn't want a draw. If he did he probably would have played Bb6. He wants to win. 

So what if after Kd7 Ra7+ Ke8? If Kaspy is looking to avoid a draw he'll make a move other than Ra8 and that could be to our advantage. On the other hand, if he plays Ra8 we play Kd7 a second time, except this time when he plays Ra7+ we play Kd6. What do you think? 

I like this

 

[Green and Gold]

tim discussed it at some length and, I believe, refuted it or decided it wasn't worth it.  For me, it leaves the pin in place and isn't wise.  How do you see the line going? 

It looks great for Black if Bh4, but if Rb8 it is likely something like:

Rb8 Rxd5
Ke3  Rf5
Bg1  Rf1
Bh2  Kd7

That actually looks double edged as I think it ends up dropping the b pawn, although it walls off the rook from attacking our f pawn, which should be more advanced.  I don't see Kd7 saving that pawn either, though.

 

[Aerial Assault]

It looks great for Black if Bh4, but if Rb8 it is likely something like:

Rb8 Rxd5
Ke3  Rf5
Bg1  Rf1
Bh2  Kd7

That actually looks double edged as I think it ends up dropping the b pawn, although it walls off the rook from attacking our f pawn, which should be more advanced.  I don't see Kd7 saving that pawn either, though.

No, I think everyone who's posted is in agreement that the f-pawn is dead and we're going to try to get the d-pawn in "exchange."  Later, we may end up targeting the b-pawn while he attacks the e-pawn, but that will be harder. 

The Rb8 move is a real problem.  I'd stick with Kd7. 

 

[Green and Gold]

No, I think everyone who's posted is in agreement that the f-pawn is dead and we're going to try to get the d-pawn in "exchange."  Later, we may end up targeting the b-pawn while he attacks the e-pawn, but that will be harder. 

The Rb8 move is a real problem.  I'd stick with Kd7. 

Yeah, after further consideration, I don't think it much matters at this point.  I think both of those moves lead to a draw.

 

[timschochet]

OK I think f6 is the move.

If Bh4 Ke7 Bxf6+ Kxe6 Rxd8 Ke5 maybe we can still win this. 

If Rb8 Kd7 (Rxd5 is no good) Rxb5 Kd6 

in both situations we're giving up a pawn to get our king active, but I don't see any other choice. 

This was the extent of my f6 analysis. I've come around to thinking Kd7 is better, but take s look at this before we decide. Maybe Im missing something. 

 

[Green and Gold]

Ok, looking at Kd7 without looking at everyone's analysis (might be repeating what you already know)

..       Kd7
Ra7  Kd6
Rxf7  Kxd5
Bc5

After that, I think you are dropping either the e pawn on the b pawn, or maybe a draw by repetition.

 

[timschochet]

You know, now I'm reconsidering again. Here's the one advantage to f6: he has to trade the bishops to take it. If he does, we might be able to avoid losing the e pawn without trading rooks- and protect the b pawn.

if he doesn't take the f pawn then we still have connected pass pawns- even after losing the b pawn we might still win with that. 

Kd7 is more direct and it gets our king active. But it's hard to see how we win. f6 might give us winning chances- maybe. 

 

[Aerial Assault]

This was the extent of my f6 analysis. I've come around to thinking Kd7 is better, but take s look at this before we decide. Maybe Im missing something. 

I think you mean . . . Kxf6, right?  Setting up the bishop trade?  

I dunno.  I don't see a reason to trade bishops right now, and under that scenario we can't get the d-pawn as compensation for losing the f-pawn.  Seems to me clearly inferior to Kd7.  But I have to log off for a while and am good with whatever you guys decide.  Great game.   

 

[timschochet]

Heres what I want to do. We've got time; we need to play several "games" here. I need one of you (or more) to play white against me. We're going to do this more than once. We're going to try and exhaust all likely possibilities all the way to the end. 

Weve got Kd7 and f6. Let's start with Kd7: 

52..Kd7

 

[Aerial Assault]

Ugh, twist my arm

53.   Ra7+

 

[timschochet]

53..Kd6

 

[Aerial Assault]

54.  Rxf7

 

[SacramentoBob]

This has turned into Inception.

 

[timschochet]

54..Kxd5

 

[Aerial Assault]

55.  Bc5

 

[timschochet]

I don't have time for this now. We'll have to do it later. Or I will just start posting variations and see if I can come up with a win. 

 

[Aerial Assault]

ok

 

[[icon]]

TIM: LET'S PLAY CHESS
AA: Okay, I'll help. 
TIM: I DON'T HAVE TIME TO PLAY CHESS. 

 

 

[timschochet]

All right, a little more time now. I'm going to look at Kd7 variations.

1. Kd7 Ra7+ Kd6 Rxf7 Kxd5 Rf5+ Kc5 Re5 Kxb4 Rxe4+ Kc3 

White can pretty much force all of these moves after Kd7. And here's our main problem: after Be8+, we can never bring the b pawn home, because white will simply sacrifice his bishop for it. That leaves us with a bishop and a rook vs. a rook, which is a draw. 

Is there any way to change this and make it better for white? Not really. We could always take the d pawn with the rook

2. Kd7 Rxa7+ Kd6 Rxf7 Rxd5 Now White can play Rf4, Bg3+,

A. Rf4 Ke5 Bg3 Rd3 And this looks favorable for us. If Rf3+, Ke5. If Rf8+, Rxg3 Rxd8 Rb3 and I think we have decent winning chances.

B, Bg3+ Ke6 Rf4 Ke5 Rg5+ Ke4 (Kf5 Rg5+) Bf2+ and white wins the pawn- not good. 

So I don't think we can play Rxd5 because of Bg3+

Which brings us back to square one.

 

[timschochet]

Now let's look at f6

f6 Bh4 Ke7 Bxf6+ Kxf6 Rxd8 Ke5 Re8+ Kd5 Rd8+ Kc5 Re8+ Rd5 Ke3 we can't win this. 

So every which way White has a draw. The question is, which is path is most difficult for him to find it?

Kd7 or f6? 

 

[McGarnicle]

Let's figure out how to lure his king to the poisoned square.

 

[timschochet]

Well. f6 isn't any better. So I'm thinking we might as well play Kd7. Any objection? 

 

[otello]

OK I think f6 is the move.

If Bh4 Ke7 Bxf6+ Kxe6 Rxd8 Ke5 maybe we can still win this. 

If Rb8 Kd7 (Rxd5 is no good) Rxb5 Kd6 

in both situations we're giving up a pawn to get our king active, but I don't see any other choice. 

I like f6 here.  

 

[timschochet]

Anybody else like f6 instead? Right now the consensus is Kd7

 

[SacramentoBob]

I didn't consider or see f6.  What are its merits?

 

[timschochet]

I didn't consider or see f6.  What are its merits?

There's a few posts on it. See above. 

 

[SacramentoBob]

Kd7 then.

 

[timschochet]

Kd7 it is. 

 

[timschochet]

And Kaspy waits about 3 seconds before playing Ra7+ 

We have 3 choices here: 

1. Kd6 as planned. 

2. Ke8, to see if he goes back to Ra8 or tries to avoid the draw with a different move. 

3. Bc7 we haven't really looked at this- does it make any sense? 

 

[timschochet]

You know, Bc7 might work. Consider these two variations:

1. Bc7 Bb6 Rc3 Ke2 Rc4. If Rb7, Kc8 forces trading everything winning for black

2. Bc7 Rb7 f5 (Rxd5, Bg3 or Bb6 loses our bishop) Rxb5 f4 Rb7 Kc8 Rb5 f3+Kf1 and we're looking good. 

Why not Bc7? 

 

[Aerial Assault]

TIM: LET'S PLAY CHESS
AA: Okay, I'll help. 
TIM: I DON'T HAVE TIME TO PLAY CHESS. 

 

  And I wanted to log off, too!   Ah, it's okay.  Tim has done a nice job here to say the least.  

 

[timschochet]

You know, Bc7 might work. Consider these two variations:

1. Bc7 Bb6 Rc3 Ke2 Rc4. If Rb7, Kc8 forces trading everything winning for black

2. Bc7 Rb7 f5 (Rxd5, Bg3 or Bb6 loses our bishop) Rxb5 f4 Rb7 Kc8 Rb5 f3+Kf1 and we're looking good. 

Why not Bc7? 

Bump. So what do you guys think of this? Kd6 just walks straight into a draw. Bc7 looks like we can do something. Is there a trap I'm missing? 

 

[Aerial Assault]

Bump. So what do you guys think of this? Kd6 just walks straight into a draw. Bc7 looks like we can do something. Is there a trap I'm missing? 

When discussed last (yesterday I think), I said I didn't like Bc7 because it just continues the pin and his rook might be more powerful on the seventh rank than the eighth.  But those aren't big deals.  Let me look at Bc7. 

 

[Aerial Assault]

Bump. So what do you guys think of this? Kd6 just walks straight into a draw. Bc7 looks like we can do something. Is there a trap I'm missing? 

Okay, so your lines are:

1. Bc7 Bb6 Rc3 Ke2 Rc4. If Rb7, Kc8 forces trading everything winning for black

2. Bc7 Rb7 f5 (Rxd5, Bg3 or Bb6 loses our bishop) Rxb5 f4 Rb7 Kc8 Rb5 f3+Kf1 and we're looking good. 

I like the first line a lot.  A lot.  (I assume the fourth move in the line, Ke2, means Kd2.)  I don't know if your forecast moves for white will all play out but you've certainly done a good job there with black's moves and at least some of white's moves that you've chosen are pretty certain.  If we can get this result, great.

I'm not as thrilled about the second line because of the loss of the b-pawn (and thus our current advantage).  But we're going to lose the f-pawn at some point with Kd6 . . .   Of course, there we get the d-pawn back. 

I'm fine with Bc7.  One question, though - - why are you convinced that Kd6 "walks . . . into a draw?"

 

[timschochet]

Okay, so your lines are:

1. Bc7 Bb6 Rc3 Ke2 Rc4. If Rb7, Kc8 forces trading everything winning for black

2. Bc7 Rb7 f5 (Rxd5, Bg3 or Bb6 loses our bishop) Rxb5 f4 Rb7 Kc8 Rb5 f3+Kf1 and we're looking good. 

I like the first line a lot.  A lot.  (I assume the fourth move in the line, Ke2, means Kd2.)  I don't know if your forecast moves for white will all play out but you've certainly done a good job there with black's moves and at least some of white's moves that you've chosen are pretty certain.  If we can get this result, great.

I'm not as thrilled about the second line because of the loss of the b-pawn (and thus our current advantage).  But we're going to lose the f-pawn at some point with Kd6 . . .   Of course, there we get the d-pawn back. 

I'm fine with Bc7.  One question, though - - why are you convinced that Kd6 "walks . . . into a draw?"

Kd6 Rxf7 Kxd5 Rf5+ Kc5 Re5

Here's the point. If we lose the f pawn, we're going to lose the e pawn as well. And we can't win with just the b pawn. The reason why is that white will position his bishop on e1 and sacrifice it if we ever try to push the b pawn. We can't win with a rook and a bishop against a rook. 

I'm 99% sure that unless white makes a big mistake, which he won't, the only way we can win this game is to maintain the two connected passed pawns. That's why even in the second variation after Bc7, I would rather give up the b pawn rather than the f pawn. We give up that f pawn, the best we can hope for is a draw. 

That's my reasoning, anyhow. 

 

[Aerial Assault]

Kd6 Rxf7 Kxd5 Rf5+ Kc5 Re5

Here's the point. If we lose the f pawn, we're going to lose the e pawn as well. And we can't win with just the b pawn. The reason why is that white will position his bishop on e1 and sacrifice it if we ever try to push the b pawn. We can't win with a rook and a bishop against a rook. 

I'm 99% sure that unless white makes a big mistake, which he won't, the only way we can win this game is to maintain the two connected passed pawns. That's why even in the second variation after Bc7, I would rather give up the b pawn rather than the f pawn. We give up that f pawn, the best we can hope for is a draw. 

That's my reasoning, anyhow. 

I thought that might be your thinking. 

R+B  v. R is not an automatic draw, BTW; it can be won by the player with superior material.  But I assume that would take forever and be highly difficult against Kaspy.  Nonetheless . . . . 

I'm sold.  Bc7 is good by me.  Good explanation and good job. 

 

[timschochet]

I thought that might be your thinking. 

I'm sold.  Bc7 is good by me.  Good job. 

Thanks. I won't do it though until we hear from the others. I still might be missing something...

 

[Wilk]

Okay, so your lines are:

1. Bc7 Bb6 Rc3 Ke2 Rc4. If Rb7, Kc8 forces trading everything winning for black

2. Bc7 Rb7 f5 (Rxd5, Bg3 or Bb6 loses our bishop) Rxb5 f4 Rb7 Kc8 Rb5 f3+Kf1 and we're looking good. 

I like the first line a lot.  A lot.  (I assume the fourth move in the line, Ke2, means Kd2.)  I don't know if your forecast moves for white will all play out but you've certainly done a good job there with black's moves and at least some of white's moves that you've chosen are pretty certain.  If we can get this result, great.

I'm not as thrilled about the second line because of the loss of the b-pawn (and thus our current advantage).  But we're going to lose the f-pawn at some point with Kd6 . . .   Of course, there we get the d-pawn back. 

I'm fine with Bc7.  One question, though - - why are you convinced that Kd6 "walks . . . into a draw?"

I dont like the first line.  Keep going (it wont be rb7). It will be bc5 (then d6 is deadly).

Bc5...kc8

D6...bxd6

Bxd6...rd4+

Ke3...rxd6

Rxf7...and then we cant hold our E pawn.

 

[Aerial Assault]

I dont like the first line.  Keep going (it wont be rb7). It will be bc5 (then d6 is deadly).

Bc5...kc8

D6...bxd6

Bxd6...rd4+

Ke3...rxd6

Rxf7...and then we cant hold our E pawn.

Okay; I'm tapped out for the night.  No need to move until tomorrow, I don't think.   

 

[Wilk]

I dont like the first line.  Keep going (it wont be rb7). It will be bc5 (then d6 is deadly).

Bc5...kc8

D6...bxd6

Bxd6...rd4+

Ke3...rxd6

Rxf7...and then we cant hold our E pawn.

Thus, I think we dont repin the king here. Play kd6. Just played this 20 times with my wife...This was best...

Rxf7...ke5

Rb7...rdx5

Bc5...bg5

Rxb5...kg5

Ra5...rd2+

Ke1...kg4

Ra3...rb2

I think maybe we can win from there?