Felix Jones (1 Viewer)

[CalBear]

One thing that is entirely fallacious is that extra weight will make you less injury-prone. Joint injuries, particularly in the lower body, are all exacerbated when those joints have to carry additional weight.

Felix had joint injuries?

Yes, turf toe and PCL are both joint injuries.

The PCL is a ligament, not a joint....but I didn't know he had turf toe. I remembered a foot problem, but thought it was something else.

Your knee joint is a collection of tendons, ligaments, cartilage and muscles. The PCL is part of it. Pretty much the whole structure is under more stress and pressure the more weight it's bearing; everything is more likely to be injured, and harder to rehab. The only exception is that proper conditioning of the muscles around the joint can sometimes stabilize it. But it's pretty much a given that more upper body weight means more stress on the lower body joints.Jones was put on IR his rookie season with turf toe. Turf toe wouldn't be caused by carrying too much weight, but it can be harder to rehab with lots of weight, as you need to push all your weight off your toe.

 

[MAC_32]

One thing that is entirely fallacious is that extra weight will make you less injury-prone. Joint injuries, particularly in the lower body, are all exacerbated when those joints have to carry additional weight.

Felix had joint injuries?

Yes, turf toe and PCL are both joint injuries.

The PCL is a ligament, not a joint....but I didn't know he had turf toe. I remembered a foot problem, but thought it was something else.

Your knee joint is a collection of tendons, ligaments, cartilage and muscles. The PCL is part of it. Pretty much the whole structure is under more stress and pressure the more weight it's bearing; everything is more likely to be injured, and harder to rehab. The only exception is that proper conditioning of the muscles around the joint can sometimes stabilize it. But it's pretty much a given that more upper body weight means more stress on the lower body joints.Jones was put on IR his rookie season with turf toe. Turf toe wouldn't be caused by carrying too much weight, but it can be harder to rehab with lots of weight, as you need to push all your weight off your toe.

What grade tear was the PCL? Unless it was a grade 3 there should be very little ill effects from the rehab process, hell I know plenty of athletes that have played with grade 1 and grade 2 tears of that ligament.The turf toe is a much, much greater issue for potential re-injury imho. Not so much the actual toe, but over compensating other areas of the body to take pressure off the bad toe.

 

[GOroute]

I really think this is Jones's breakout year. I'd love to snag him in every league..

not sure about every league but yeah i am sensing a very good yr from Felix Jones this year.

 

[Dragon1952]

How in the world can adding weight not slow him down a little?

I was an All American NCAA sprinter. What enabled my times to improve for me to become an All American was adding muscle. If you have a good coach and you train the right way, you can improve your speed while adding muscle. The right kind of training is the key.

I was not an All-American at anything in college unless you count....well nevermind.But I now do a lot of work with eilte youth athletes and would second this. I don't do physical training, and won't claim to be an expert by any means, but I am around them enough to see what they do and the results. Jones is still young enough that increased muscle mass could very well contribute to maintaining or increasing explosiveness and overall speed IF the right kind of training is used.I'm sure that as a NFL athlete Jones is getting the highest quality training but it can still be a difficult thing to do. Everyone's body is different and responds differently to training programs, diets, and supplements.Obviously, Slaton increased muscle mass and appeared much less explosive last year in pre-season. Time will tell how the increased weight works for Felix and I will be interested to see what he looks like over the next few weeks.

You guys seem to be talking about adding muscle on people that are still developing in college... thats fine. Felix is already an adult and is an all world athlete in his early stages of 20s... his body is already developed to its natural form and now it sounds like the added muscle is 'forced'. And if you wanted to improve your speed wouldn't you add weight to your lower-body? Sounds like they wanted him to add the weight up top so he wouldn't fumble as much with the increased workload. I think its going to hurt his style of play more than anything.

Felix Jones only benched 225 eight times at the combine. Most 210 fully developed athletes can do double that. That tells me that he never spent much time in the gym. So if the weight gain is truly from him finally dedicating himself to working out for the first time, not only can he maintain(or even better) his speed while putting on weight, it can help with his durability issues.

8 times is pretty pathetic allright. I could do 12 at 46 yrs old at that same body weight, and I had a desk job all my life.

 

[benson_will_lead_the_way]

It looks like Felix is being held out of practice because of swelling in his knee.

"Running back Felix Jones is being held out because of swelling on a knee. Coach Wade Phillips said the ailment is not considered serious and the club is being cautious in the handling of Jones".

Link

The club is being cautious in the handling of Jones. I've got him in 2 leagues but I'm starting to wonder how many carries will they actually give him this year? I'm thinking less than 200 at this point.

And so it begins

 

[Jeremy]

Marion Barber remains the starter

 

[shader]

He's a walking injury report.

 

[the spanker]

I really think this is Jones's breakout year. I'd love to snag him in every league..

not sure about every league but yeah i am sensing a very good yr from Felix Jones this year.

Good luck with that.

 

[Mr.Underhill]

not sure if I like him adding weight, might slow him down some. Speed is his game. Will it make him more durable? who knows

If the 8 lbs he gained was muscle and it's all above the waist it shouldn't make a meaningful difference on his speed.

If he had added muscle to his core and lower body, I'd say he could even be faster. If he just added weight to his upper body, he's got the same horsepower as before in his core and legs but now has a higher curb weight. True, 8 pounds isn't much, but it's the fact that he tinkered with it that worries me. Nutrition and exercise can have a big impact on peformance as well as just weight. But my real question is how does 8#'s of muscle added to the upper body make him more durable in his lower body? Upper body could mean core to some people but it usually means chest/shoulders/arms. Great, Felix will now have a devastating stiff arm in case he's lost quickness.Again, 8 pounds really isn't much, but if it's upper body muscle/weight, it's at best a non-factor in both the speed and durability columns. Had he added 8 pounds in his core and lower body, I'd say we might have the makings of a bell cow. It almost sounds like Felix wants a modeling gig or wants the next jock spot on Dancing With The Stars.

 

[MAC_32]

not sure if I like him adding weight, might slow him down some. Speed is his game. Will it make him more durable? who knows

If the 8 lbs he gained was muscle and it's all above the waist it shouldn't make a meaningful difference on his speed.

If he had added muscle to his core and lower body, I'd say he could even be faster. If he just added weight to his upper body, he's got the same horsepower as before in his core and legs but now has a higher curb weight. True, 8 pounds isn't much, but it's the fact that he tinkered with it that worries me. Nutrition and exercise can have a big impact on peformance as well as just weight. But my real question is how does 8#'s of muscle added to the upper body make him more durable in his lower body? Upper body could mean core to some people but it usually means chest/shoulders/arms. Great, Felix will now have a devastating stiff arm in case he's lost quickness.

Again, 8 pounds really isn't much, but if it's upper body muscle/weight, it's at best a non-factor in both the speed and durability columns. Had he added 8 pounds in his core and lower body, I'd say we might have the makings of a bell cow. It almost sounds like Felix wants a modeling gig or wants the next jock spot on Dancing With The Stars.

I think I eluded to it before, but if I didn't I will here - if the weight he added was in his arms and shoulders then he needs to hire a new trainer. Upper body muscle gains can help durability, including lower body durability, but if the gains were in making his arms jacked then it won't work.

 

[Mr.Underhill]

How in the world can adding weight not slow him down a little? Assuming he added upper body bulk, the force that his lower body creates to accelerate won't change therefore...Force = Mass X Acceleration. If mass increases and the force stays the same then accleration decreases. Didn't Felix take physics?

How in the world can adding weight not slow him down a little?

I was an All American NCAA sprinter. What enabled my times to improve for me to become an All American was adding muscle. If you have a good coach and you train the right way, you can improve your speed while adding muscle. The right kind of training is the key.

Did you also decrease body fat while adding muscle? If so, then of course you got faster. More muscle means more power. If your net weight gain was 0 while you added muscle, you should get faster. Hell, you keep your muscle mass and weight the exact same and repetition alone will teach your muscles to perform a certain task better. Of course, as a sprinter, adding muscle in your shoulders isn't the same as adding muscle in your legs and core. So Jones adding weight, without knowing more, shouldn't be moving him up anyone's boards.

I don't like when players gain weight to "improve their durability" simply because it is a free roll. A player only does it if they have been injured before so if htey get injured again its like "oh well, we tried something" and if he doesn't its "hey, putting on weight was a good thing.Specifically in Jones case his rookie injuries were a hamstring pull and turf toe and last year's injury was a strained PCL. None of them sounds like an injury that can be prevented with more muscle to these untrained ears.

The knee joint is partially stabilized by the leg muscles. But individual body architecture plays a huge role in to what extent this happens. MRI's find tears that decades ago were diagnosed as hyper-extensions, strains and sprains because some people's musculature surrounding the knee could hide the tear from traditional stability tests.

This, that a few pounds of extra muscle will reduce injury risk seems an awfully widely-held belief by the top trainers in the world for you to be calling it 'entirley fallacious'? Charles put on a little bit of weight for protection, they want Best to put on a little. Leon Washingtonm has been doing this, Norwood has tried. If you put of 25 lbs I agree it'll change what your muscles and ligiments have to do and over time that can cause injury. But to say you can't help avoid injury by getting stronger and adding some muscle? I have a lot less muscle than these guys and would expect an exploding linebacker to do me a lot more harm than it does them. Muscle does hold you and your bones together against outside forces? I think its overdoing that becomes a problem - being too light or too stiff or too heavy. But saying the Cowboy staff's belief that having Felix Jones come to camp with an extra 5 or 7 lbs will make him less prone to injury is entirely fallacious ... would require a lot more medical information about world class athletes in peak condition than ... I have?

Again, it depends on where the muscle is added. Adding to your bench press max doesn't help your leg muscles better stabilize your knee. Ask a trainer this. And with all respect to trainers, they aren't the final word on anatomy and orthopedic medicine. Ask a trainer where the clinical evidence is to support that contention. Old saws and common misconceptions can be entrenched in professional circles just like they do in others. And it's easy for actual evidence to be over-generalized, over-stated or dilluted by the professional and incorrectly understood by lay people.When the profession has a vested interest in having people believe the old saw, even principled practitioners are more likely to accept the notion without really questioning it. I mean, how many athletic trainers out there schilling for clients (clients that include NFL teams) are going to spend time or research to challenge a widely accepted belief that is beneficial to the professional out in the market place? That's not a slam on trainers or a claim that they are unethical. Most professions deal with this.

 

[Mr.Underhill]

not sure if I like him adding weight, might slow him down some. Speed is his game. Will it make him more durable? who knows

If the 8 lbs he gained was muscle and it's all above the waist it shouldn't make a meaningful difference on his speed.

If he had added muscle to his core and lower body, I'd say he could even be faster. If he just added weight to his upper body, he's got the same horsepower as before in his core and legs but now has a higher curb weight. True, 8 pounds isn't much, but it's the fact that he tinkered with it that worries me. Nutrition and exercise can have a big impact on peformance as well as just weight. But my real question is how does 8#'s of muscle added to the upper body make him more durable in his lower body? Upper body could mean core to some people but it usually means chest/shoulders/arms. Great, Felix will now have a devastating stiff arm in case he's lost quickness.

Again, 8 pounds really isn't much, but if it's upper body muscle/weight, it's at best a non-factor in both the speed and durability columns. Had he added 8 pounds in his core and lower body, I'd say we might have the makings of a bell cow. It almost sounds like Felix wants a modeling gig or wants the next jock spot on Dancing With The Stars.

I think I eluded to it before, but if I didn't I will here - if the weight he added was in his arms and shoulders then he needs to hire a new trainer. Upper body muscle gains can help durability, including lower body durability, but if the gains were in making his arms jacked then it won't work.

Don't allude to it, just explain how adding upper body muscle will lower Felix's chances of re-aggravating turf joe, preventing a knee ligament injury or pulling a hammy.I'm not trying to be a di_k, my knowledge in this field is patchwork at best. You very well might have some expertise or knowledge that runs counter to what I've heard.

 

[MAC_32]

not sure if I like him adding weight, might slow him down some. Speed is his game. Will it make him more durable? who knows

If the 8 lbs he gained was muscle and it's all above the waist it shouldn't make a meaningful difference on his speed.

If he had added muscle to his core and lower body, I'd say he could even be faster. If he just added weight to his upper body, he's got the same horsepower as before in his core and legs but now has a higher curb weight. True, 8 pounds isn't much, but it's the fact that he tinkered with it that worries me. Nutrition and exercise can have a big impact on peformance as well as just weight. But my real question is how does 8#'s of muscle added to the upper body make him more durable in his lower body? Upper body could mean core to some people but it usually means chest/shoulders/arms. Great, Felix will now have a devastating stiff arm in case he's lost quickness.

Again, 8 pounds really isn't much, but if it's upper body muscle/weight, it's at best a non-factor in both the speed and durability columns. Had he added 8 pounds in his core and lower body, I'd say we might have the makings of a bell cow. It almost sounds like Felix wants a modeling gig or wants the next jock spot on Dancing With The Stars.

I think I eluded to it before, but if I didn't I will here - if the weight he added was in his arms and shoulders then he needs to hire a new trainer. Upper body muscle gains can help durability, including lower body durability, but if the gains were in making his arms jacked then it won't work.

Don't allude to it, just explain how adding upper body muscle will lower Felix's chances of re-aggravating turf joe, preventing a knee ligament injury or pulling a hammy.I'm not trying to be a di_k, my knowledge in this field is patchwork at best. You very well might have some expertise or knowledge that runs counter to what I've heard.

I don't think it will have a positive impact on his turf toe, at least not a meaningful one. Until CalBear mentioned it earlier in this thread I didn't know he had it.I don't know the sort of training Felix went through so I can't say with confidence that what Felix did will improve his game, if he had a program focused on increasing core strength (and chest/back as opposed to arms/shoulders) then he will have improved control of his entire body which theoretically will make him less susceptible to hamstring pulls (usually occurs due to over stress, which is caused by over compensating for another weakness, which is less likely to happen with a stronger core) and allow him to have greater control of his lower extremities (which will decrease the risk in a knee injury).

I'm much more likely to invest in a player that keeps his body conditioned during the offseason (Felix) than I am one who doesn't (Bowe). It not only allows for a better conditioned body to maintain maximum production throughout the season, it shows dedication and passion to be your absolute best.

 

[Fantaholic]

IF healthy, he has the talent make CJ3 look pedestrian. However, he is the biggest IF in football. It all depends on where you can get him in the draft.

 

[baconisgood]

not sure if I like him adding weight, might slow him down some. Speed is his game. Will it make him more durable? who knows

If the 8 lbs he gained was muscle and it's all above the waist it shouldn't make a meaningful difference on his speed.

If he had added muscle to his core and lower body, I'd say he could even be faster. If he just added weight to his upper body, he's got the same horsepower as before in his core and legs but now has a higher curb weight. True, 8 pounds isn't much, but it's the fact that he tinkered with it that worries me. Nutrition and exercise can have a big impact on peformance as well as just weight. But my real question is how does 8#'s of muscle added to the upper body make him more durable in his lower body? Upper body could mean core to some people but it usually means chest/shoulders/arms. Great, Felix will now have a devastating stiff arm in case he's lost quickness.

Again, 8 pounds really isn't much, but if it's upper body muscle/weight, it's at best a non-factor in both the speed and durability columns. Had he added 8 pounds in his core and lower body, I'd say we might have the makings of a bell cow. It almost sounds like Felix wants a modeling gig or wants the next jock spot on Dancing With The Stars.

I think I eluded to it before, but if I didn't I will here - if the weight he added was in his arms and shoulders then he needs to hire a new trainer. Upper body muscle gains can help durability, including lower body durability, but if the gains were in making his arms jacked then it won't work.

Don't allude to it, just explain how adding upper body muscle will lower Felix's chances of re-aggravating turf joe, preventing a knee ligament injury or pulling a hammy.I'm not trying to be a di_k, my knowledge in this field is patchwork at best. You very well might have some expertise or knowledge that runs counter to what I've heard.

Simply put more muscles = more hormones = better recovery.

 

[Mr.Underhill]

Don't allude to it, just explain how adding upper body muscle will lower Felix's chances of re-aggravating turf joe, preventing a knee ligament injury or pulling a hammy.I'm not trying to be a di_k, my knowledge in this field is patchwork at best. You very well might have some expertise or knowledge that runs counter to what I've heard.

I don't think it will have a positive impact on his turf toe, at least not a meaningful one. Until CalBear mentioned it earlier in this thread I didn't know he had it.I don't know the sort of training Felix went through so I can't say with confidence that what Felix did will improve his game, if he had a program focused on increasing core strength (and chest/back as opposed to arms/shoulders) then he will have improved control of his entire body which theoretically will make him less susceptible to hamstring pulls (usually occurs due to over stress, which is caused by over compensating for another weakness, which is less likely to happen with a stronger core) and allow him to have greater control of his lower extremities (which will decrease the risk in a knee injury).I'm much more likely to invest in a player that keeps his body conditioned during the offseason (Felix) than I am one who doesn't (Bowe). It not only allows for a better conditioned body to maintain maximum production throughout the season, it shows dedication and passion to be your absolute best.

OK, I see what you are saying. I agree with you on core training. I think we're saying the same thing. But call it that instead of upper body training. The two have different meanings and core training isn't exactly an arcane term or concept in the profession. In fact, if he was working his chest and not so much his back and abs I'd argue he wasn't really doing core training and thus wasn't doing anything for is durability.I don't know if it was Jones or the reporter who chose to use "upper body" in the description of his program, but i have to think a professional trainer would have told him he was doing core training and explained the reasons for doing it if that's in fact what he was doing. And therefore I'd be surprised if Jones would then after the fact be inaccurate in his description or confuse upper body and core training, particularly since core training incorporates lifts that would be lower body exercises just as much as a chest exercise would be an upper body exercise.You do make an excellent point about Jones vs. Bowe. Isn't Donald Brown a fitness/health freak?

 

[Mr.Underhill]

Don't allude to it, just explain how adding upper body muscle will lower Felix's chances of re-aggravating turf joe, preventing a knee ligament injury or pulling a hammy.I'm not trying to be a di_k, my knowledge in this field is patchwork at best. You very well might have some expertise or knowledge that runs counter to what I've heard.

Simply put more muscles = more hormones = better recovery.

That's a fair point, but we aren't talking about recovery. We're talking about prevention of traumatic injury. I can buy that a ready and steady supply of hormones can keep connective tissue in tip top shape throughout the body. And the role of hormones in tissue repair isn't in question. But again, working the upper body isn't the way to maximize that advantage. And I don't know that a professional, active athlete concentrating on upper body development is really doing much more in terms of hormone production than is a similar active athlete who isn't trying to develop his upper body.The core and lower body muscle masses are huge compared to the upper body muscle masses. I've always heard that working the lower body will actually facilitate greater upper body gains because working the lower body and core muscle groups causes greater hormone production than does working the upper body. So if you want to get a significant hormone advantage for recovery, once again, you want to be doing core and lower body exercises. The resulting hormone production blows away the hormone production you get from working the upper body.