Florida boy killed by Neighborhood Watch (2 Viewers)

[kentric]

Wow. I don't hate Eric Holder like some of you guys (though if the charges are true that conservatives have made regarding the Fast and Furious case- and I don't know if they are or not- then he should have resigned or been fired, IMO)- but this doesn't seem right to me. He should not be addressing an Al Sharpton group on this matter. He should not be telling them that they are "rightfully" concerned. That's seems like an improper interference.Anyhow, that's how I see it at first blush. Anyone disagree with me here?

Not overly surprised. The "rightfully" may be a bit over the top, but speaking in front of a civil rights group (even if founded by the right Rev. Al) is no biggie and, he prefaced any action being taken with, "...if it finds any evidence that a federal civil rights crime has been committed." I'm sure he knows by now that it isn't very likely that they will be able to attain a civil right crime conviction in this case. Its just a PR ploy - although the "rightfully" is a bit much - as was Obama's 'if I had a son he would look like Trayvon' comment (IMO).

 

[timschochet]

Wow. I don't hate Eric Holder like some of you guys (though if the charges are true that conservatives have made regarding the Fast and Furious case- and I don't know if they are or not- then he should have resigned or been fired, IMO)- but this doesn't seem right to me. He should not be addressing an Al Sharpton group on this matter. He should not be telling them that they are "rightfully" concerned. That's seems like an improper interference.Anyhow, that's how I see it at first blush. Anyone disagree with me here?

Not overly surprised. The "rightfully" may be a bit over the top, but speaking in front of a civil rights group (even if founded by the right Rev. Al) is no biggie and, he prefaced any action being taken with, "...if it finds any evidence that a federal civil rights crime has been committed." I'm sure he knows by now that it isn't very likely that they will be able to attain a civil right crime conviction in this case. Its just a PR ploy - although the "rightfully" is a bit much - as was Obama's 'if I had a son he would look like Trayvon' comment (IMO).

See, I wasn't bothered at all by Obama's statement. He was speaking about the tragedy of the case, and trying to give it a personal note. Nothing wrong with that at all, and I was kind of surprised he was taken to task for it.THIS statement bothers me though, because Holder appears to be taking a position on the case itself. At leasts that's how I see it.

 

[StrikeS2k]

Wow. I don't hate Eric Holder like some of you guys (though if the charges are true that conservatives have made regarding the Fast and Furious case- and I don't know if they are or not- then he should have resigned or been fired, IMO)- but this doesn't seem right to me. He should not be addressing an Al Sharpton group on this matter. He should not be telling them that they are "rightfully" concerned. That's seems like an improper interference.Anyhow, that's how I see it at first blush. Anyone disagree with me here?

I don't really care who he addresses. But Eric Holder has shown himself to be a reverse racist POS as well as a proven liar throughout his tenure. Why should I be surprised that he would say things like this?

 

[kentric]

Wow. I don't hate Eric Holder like some of you guys (though if the charges are true that conservatives have made regarding the Fast and Furious case- and I don't know if they are or not- then he should have resigned or been fired, IMO)- but this doesn't seem right to me. He should not be addressing an Al Sharpton group on this matter. He should not be telling them that they are "rightfully" concerned. That's seems like an improper interference.Anyhow, that's how I see it at first blush. Anyone disagree with me here?

Not overly surprised. The "rightfully" may be a bit over the top, but speaking in front of a civil rights group (even if founded by the right Rev. Al) is no biggie and, he prefaced any action being taken with, "...if it finds any evidence that a federal civil rights crime has been committed." I'm sure he knows by now that it isn't very likely that they will be able to attain a civil right crime conviction in this case. Its just a PR ploy - although the "rightfully" is a bit much - as was Obama's 'if I had a son he would look like Trayvon' comment (IMO).

See, I wasn't bothered at all by Obama's statement. He was speaking about the tragedy of the case, and trying to give it a personal note. Nothing wrong with that at all, and I was kind of surprised he was taken to task for it.THIS statement bothers me though, because Holder appears to be taking a position on the case itself. At leasts that's how I see it.

For me, Obama's statement was just pure political pandering and I don't feel the president should personalize such an issue the way he did.

 

[Woogie Lee]

Wow. I don't hate Eric Holder like some of you guys (though if the charges are true that conservatives have made regarding the Fast and Furious case- and I don't know if they are or not- then he should have resigned or been fired, IMO)- but this doesn't seem right to me. He should not be addressing an Al Sharpton group on this matter. He should not be telling them that they are "rightfully" concerned. That's seems like an improper interference.Anyhow, that's how I see it at first blush. Anyone disagree with me here?

But Eric Holder has shown himself to be a reverse racist POS

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

Wow. I don't hate Eric Holder like some of you guys (though if the charges are true that conservatives have made regarding the Fast and Furious case- and I don't know if they are or not- then he should have resigned or been fired, IMO)- but this doesn't seem right to me. He should not be addressing an Al Sharpton group on this matter. He should not be telling them that they are "rightfully" concerned. That's seems like an improper interference.Anyhow, that's how I see it at first blush. Anyone disagree with me here?

I don't really care who he addresses. But Eric Holder has shown himself to be a reverse racist POS as well as a proven liar throughout his tenure. Why should I be surprised that he would say things like this?

Where is the evidence of that?

 

[StrikeS2k]

Wow. I don't hate Eric Holder like some of you guys (though if the charges are true that conservatives have made regarding the Fast and Furious case- and I don't know if they are or not- then he should have resigned or been fired, IMO)- but this doesn't seem right to me. He should not be addressing an Al Sharpton group on this matter. He should not be telling them that they are "rightfully" concerned. That's seems like an improper interference.Anyhow, that's how I see it at first blush. Anyone disagree with me here?

I don't really care who he addresses. But Eric Holder has shown himself to be a reverse racist POS as well as a proven liar throughout his tenure. Why should I be surprised that he would say things like this?

Where is the evidence of that?

Of which?

 

[footballnerd]

Wow. I don't hate Eric Holder like some of you guys (though if the charges are true that conservatives have made regarding the Fast and Furious case- and I don't know if they are or not- then he should have resigned or been fired, IMO)- but this doesn't seem right to me. He should not be addressing an Al Sharpton group on this matter. He should not be telling them that they are "rightfully" concerned. That's seems like an improper interference.Anyhow, that's how I see it at first blush. Anyone disagree with me here?

Not overly surprised. The "rightfully" may be a bit over the top, but speaking in front of a civil rights group (even if founded by the right Rev. Al) is no biggie and, he prefaced any action being taken with, "...if it finds any evidence that a federal civil rights crime has been committed." I'm sure he knows by now that it isn't very likely that they will be able to attain a civil right crime conviction in this case. Its just a PR ploy - although the "rightfully" is a bit much - as was Obama's 'if I had a son he would look like Trayvon' comment (IMO).

See, I wasn't bothered at all by Obama's statement. He was speaking about the tragedy of the case, and trying to give it a personal note. Nothing wrong with that at all, and I was kind of surprised he was taken to task for it.THIS statement bothers me though, because Holder appears to be taking a position on the case itself. At leasts that's how I see it.

my take is death of a youth, enough at question to require an investigation, they have a right to be concerned. doesn't necessarily mean they are right on the conclusion of the case.

 

[timschochet]

my take is death of a youth, enough at question to require an investigation, they have a right to be concerned. doesn't necessarily mean they are right on the conclusion of the case.

You have to consider the context. Holder is addressing a group of people who have, in recent days, loudly expressed their concern that Zimmerman may not be arrested because the authorities in Florida are racist. They believe the system is fixed against them.

 

[identikit]

my take is death of a youth, enough at question to require an investigation, they have a right to be concerned. doesn't necessarily mean they are right on the conclusion of the case.

You have to consider the context. Holder is addressing a group of people who have, in recent days, loudly expressed their concern that Zimmerman may not be arrested because the authorities in Florida are racist. They believe the system is fixed against them.

That's exactly the set of conditions/circumstances when one would use the word 'rightfully.'

 

[footballnerd]

my take is death of a youth, enough at question to require an investigation, they have a right to be concerned. doesn't necessarily mean they are right on the conclusion of the case.

You have to consider the context. Holder is addressing a group of people who have, in recent days, loudly expressed their concern that Zimmerman may not be arrested because the authorities in Florida are racist. They believe the system is fixed against them.

prob directed to attempt to appease/calm the crowd

 

[ATC1]

Sorry if this has been noted earlier in this massive thread but has there been any information released on the trajectory the bullet took? Was it going from down to upwards (as if Zimmerman shot him while on the ground and Martin was over him), was it the other way (with Zimmerman standing over Martin) or was it straight onward (meaning they were both standing)?

This is what I'm waiting for. Zimmerman's former lawyers have said there is forensics that has not been released to the public yet. I think it has to do with ballistics or some signs of a struggle for the gun.

 

[ATC1]

Here's what I'm wondering (and keep in mind, this is just speculation): does Angela Corey have proof that she can demonstrate to a jury that the screaming on that tape is, in fact, Trayvon Martin?

Because if she has proof of that, then it seems to me that should be enough to convict Zimmerman. If Martin were the one screaming, "No! No!" then it doesn't matter if Martin was the one who attacked first. It wouldn't matter who is the aggressor, because it would prove that Zimmerman had the upper hand, could have held Martin at bay until the police arrived, or could have simply left the scene. The point is, he did not need to shoot Martin. Therefore, Zimmerman is definitely guilty of manslaughter or 2nd degree murder.

So if Corey can provide expert testimony or some other means to convince a jury that the screams were from Martin, I think that's enough. But I don't know if she has the means to prove this...

What she has to prove is up to the jury. If I was on the jury, your reasoning does not even come close to proving beyoud a reasonable doubt that Treyvon was retreating. I would need good eyewitness accounts in addition to that. Plus, the case law concerning stand you ground is probably different than most states, so the bar is probably a bit lower for when you can pull the trigger. If the case above where no charges were file against the guy who had to go to the car to get his gun and than shoot perpetrators who were hiding is any indication, the standard to when you can leathally use self-defense is really low, so a scream would not be enough.

The problem with asking this question is where you`re asking it (FBG)...we have 2 very wide divides here and it seems like no matter what evidence or possible evidence that comes to light, not to many people are willing to cross that divide.If you had an impartial jury who heard this case for the first time i couldnt imagine that too many people would dismiss those screams , if proven to be treyvon, and set zimmerman free. The problem for zimmerman is he brought the gun to that party, i think that may work against him even if it was him screaming and not trey. Im convinced (they lasted way to long ) the screams were not from someone being beaten but from someone who is trying not to get shot. That could be either trey or george.

The screams seem to have gone on for at least 10 seconds. Are you trying to say that someone would be screaming for help for 10 seconds because he had a gun pointed at him? That goes against the eyewitness accounts (with one man on top of another). Tough argument you're trying to make here.

I think it was longer than 10 sec listening to the 911 tapes.

Plus, BK finds Zimmerman's problem is that he exercised his right to carry a firearm in public even if it was Zimmerman screaming for help first for the amount of time he did before the shot.

 

[SacramentoBob]

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57412258/new-info-expected-in-trayvon-martin-case/

CBS News) - The special prosecutor in the Trayvon Martin case says she'll release new information about her investigation within the next few days.

What information special prosecutor Angela Corey will reveal is uncertain.

This is an announcement to announce that we have an announcement in the future.

 

[SacramentoBob]

What's worse, reverse racists or reverse vampires?

 

[timschochet]

Sorry if this has been noted earlier in this massive thread but has there been any information released on the trajectory the bullet took? Was it going from down to upwards (as if Zimmerman shot him while on the ground and Martin was over him), was it the other way (with Zimmerman standing over Martin) or was it straight onward (meaning they were both standing)?

This is what I'm waiting for. Zimmerman's former lawyers have said there is forensics that has not been released to the public yet. I think it has to do with ballistics or some signs of a struggle for the gun.

If the forensivs show the bullet going upward, then I don't see how Corey can possibly indict Zimmerman. What am I missing here?

 

[The Commish]

Typical bullets go several directions in the body depending on what they hit, what they're made of, what their designed to do etc. Through and through are the general exception. Not sure what "direction" by itself has to do with anything.

 

[TexanFan02]

Sorry if this has been noted earlier in this massive thread but has there been any information released on the trajectory the bullet took? Was it going from down to upwards (as if Zimmerman shot him while on the ground and Martin was over him), was it the other way (with Zimmerman standing over Martin) or was it straight onward (meaning they were both standing)?

This is what I'm waiting for. Zimmerman's former lawyers have said there is forensics that has not been released to the public yet. I think it has to do with ballistics or some signs of a struggle for the gun.

If the forensivs show the bullet going upward, then I don't see how Corey can possibly indict Zimmerman. What am I missing here?

Lots.

 

[squistion]

my take is death of a youth, enough at question to require an investigation, they have a right to be concerned. doesn't necessarily mean they are right on the conclusion of the case.

You have to consider the context. Holder is addressing a group of people who have, in recent days, loudly expressed their concern that Zimmerman may not be arrested because the authorities in Florida are racist. They believe the system is fixed against them.

And from their perspective, it would appear that way. This case was several weeks old and was going nowhere until Al Sharpton and others brought attention to it. I can't honestly believe that authorities would have revisited the shooting and would now be considering filing charges against Zimmerman if not for the public outcry. There is also the perception (that I agree with) that if Martin had been white and Zimmerman black, he would have been arrested the night of the shooting and would be now facing trial.

 

[identikit]

Typical bullets go several directions in the body depending on what they hit, what they're made of, what their designed to do etc. Through and through are the general exception. Not sure what "direction" by itself has to do with anything.

 

[timschochet]

Sorry if this has been noted earlier in this massive thread but has there been any information released on the trajectory the bullet took? Was it going from down to upwards (as if Zimmerman shot him while on the ground and Martin was over him), was it the other way (with Zimmerman standing over Martin) or was it straight onward (meaning they were both standing)?

This is what I'm waiting for. Zimmerman's former lawyers have said there is forensics that has not been released to the public yet. I think it has to do with ballistics or some signs of a struggle for the gun.

If the forensivs show the bullet going upward, then I don't see how Corey can possibly indict Zimmerman. What am I missing here?

Lots.

Look, I know it's not so simple. And what Commish wrote about different directions is true, I'm sure. But if the bullet traveled in such an angle as it would conclusively prove that Zimmerman was on his back on the ground with Trayvon above him, then to me that would be enough evidence that I could never convict Zimmerman. Just as if the screams are conclusively proved to be Trayvon's, then that would be enough evidence for me to convict Zimmerman. These are crucial points in the case, it seems to me, and would resolve uncertainty one way or the other.

 

[ATC1]

Typical bullets go several directions in the body depending on what they hit, what they're made of, what their designed to do etc. Through and through are the general exception. Not sure what "direction" by itself has to do with anything.

It could be a number of things. Trayvon's finger prints on the gun; A gun jam showing evidence of a struggle; GRS on Trayvon's hands or arms, to name a few.

 

[TexanFan02]

Sorry if this has been noted earlier in this massive thread but has there been any information released on the trajectory the bullet took? Was it going from down to upwards (as if Zimmerman shot him while on the ground and Martin was over him), was it the other way (with Zimmerman standing over Martin) or was it straight onward (meaning they were both standing)?

This is what I'm waiting for. Zimmerman's former lawyers have said there is forensics that has not been released to the public yet. I think it has to do with ballistics or some signs of a struggle for the gun.

If the forensivs show the bullet going upward, then I don't see how Corey can possibly indict Zimmerman. What am I missing here?

Lots.

Look, I know it's not so simple. And what Commish wrote about different directions is true, I'm sure. But if the bullet traveled in such an angle as it would conclusively prove that Zimmerman was on his back on the ground with Trayvon above him, then to me that would be enough evidence that I could never convict Zimmerman. Just as if the screams are conclusively proved to be Trayvon's, then that would be enough evidence for me to convict Zimmerman. These are crucial points in the case, it seems to me, and would resolve uncertainty one way or the other.

Just because Trayvon was on top does not mean Zimmerman was in fear for his life. And that's just one thing.

 

[timschochet]

my take is death of a youth, enough at question to require an investigation, they have a right to be concerned. doesn't necessarily mean they are right on the conclusion of the case.

You have to consider the context. Holder is addressing a group of people who have, in recent days, loudly expressed their concern that Zimmerman may not be arrested because the authorities in Florida are racist. They believe the system is fixed against them.

And from their perspective, it would appear that way. This case was several weeks old and was going nowhere until Al Sharpton and others brought attention to it. I can't honestly believe that authorities would have revisited the shooting and would now be considering filing charges against Zimmerman if not for the public outcry. There is also the perception (that I agree with) that if Martin had been white and Zimmerman black, he would have been arrested the night of the shooting and would be now facing trial.

I agree with all of this, as I have stated several times. But it's one thing for you and I to draw this conclusion, and it's quite another for the Attorney General of the United States to appear to sympathize with such a conclusion, especially while the investigation is still ongoing and we have no final outcome. To me, it was highly inappropriate.

 

[timschochet]

Just because Trayvon was on top does not mean Zimmerman was in fear for his life. And that's just one thing.

It doesn't prove it, but it's enough to cause reasonable doubt, I should think. How could you possibly convict Zimmerman if you knew that this was the case?

 

[identikit]

Sorry if this has been noted earlier in this massive thread but has there been any information released on the trajectory the bullet took?

Was it going from down to upwards (as if Zimmerman shot him while on the ground and Martin was over him), was it the other way (with Zimmerman standing over Martin) or was it straight onward (meaning they were both standing)?

This is what I'm waiting for. Zimmerman's former lawyers have said there is forensics that has not been released to the public yet. I think it has to do with ballistics or some signs of a struggle for the gun.

If the forensivs show the bullet going upward, then I don't see how Corey can possibly indict Zimmerman. What am I missing here?

Lots.

Look, I know it's not so simple. And what Commish wrote about different directions is true, I'm sure. But if the bullet traveled in such an angle as it would conclusively prove that Zimmerman was on his back on the ground with Trayvon above him, then to me that would be enough evidence that I could never convict Zimmerman. Just as if the screams are conclusively proved to be Trayvon's, then that would be enough evidence for me to convict Zimmerman. These are crucial points in the case, it seems to me, and would resolve uncertainty one way or the other.

Then don't state that it is that simple.

 

[TexanFan02]

Just because Trayvon was on top does not mean Zimmerman was in fear for his life. And that's just one thing.

It doesn't prove it, but it's enough to cause reasonable doubt, I should think. How could you possibly convict Zimmerman if you knew that this was the case?

Because there could be other evidence. Why do you keep speaking in absolutes? Never mind, I forgot the "Look at me" factor.

 

[timschochet]

Just because Trayvon was on top does not mean Zimmerman was in fear for his life. And that's just one thing.

It doesn't prove it, but it's enough to cause reasonable doubt, I should think. How could you possibly convict Zimmerman if you knew that this was the case?

Because there could be other evidence. Why do you keep speaking in absolutes? Never mind, I forgot the "Look at me" factor.

Stop. Seriously, though, what other evidence could remove the reasonable doubt caused by Zimmerman being on the ground with Trayvon on of him? I can't think of any.

 

[identikit]

Just because Trayvon was on top does not mean Zimmerman was in fear for his life. And that's just one thing.

It doesn't prove it, but it's enough to cause reasonable doubt, I should think. How could you possibly convict Zimmerman if you knew that this was the case?

Because there could be other evidence. Why do you keep speaking in absolutes? Never mind, I forgot the "Look at me" factor.

Biggest derailers in this thread,

 

[ATC1]

Sorry if this has been noted earlier in this massive thread but has there been any information released on the trajectory the bullet took? Was it going from down to upwards (as if Zimmerman shot him while on the ground and Martin was over him), was it the other way (with Zimmerman standing over Martin) or was it straight onward (meaning they were both standing)?

This is what I'm waiting for. Zimmerman's former lawyers have said there is forensics that has not been released to the public yet. I think it has to do with ballistics or some signs of a struggle for the gun.

If the forensivs show the bullet going upward, then I don't see how Corey can possibly indict Zimmerman. What am I missing here?

Lots.

Look, I know it's not so simple. And what Commish wrote about different directions is true, I'm sure. But if the bullet traveled in such an angle as it would conclusively prove that Zimmerman was on his back on the ground with Trayvon above him, then to me that would be enough evidence that I could never convict Zimmerman. Just as if the screams are conclusively proved to be Trayvon's, then that would be enough evidence for me to convict Zimmerman. These are crucial points in the case, it seems to me, and would resolve uncertainty one way or the other.

Just because Trayvon was on top does not mean Zimmerman was in fear for his life. And that's just one thing.

HArd to proove how he felt when you throw in a broken nose, grass on his back, an eye witness saying Zimmerman was on his back and screamming for help, and throw in the "stand your Ground" law.

 

[TexanFan02]

Sorry if this has been noted earlier in this massive thread but has there been any information released on the trajectory the bullet took? Was it going from down to upwards (as if Zimmerman shot him while on the ground and Martin was over him), was it the other way (with Zimmerman standing over Martin) or was it straight onward (meaning they were both standing)?

This is what I'm waiting for. Zimmerman's former lawyers have said there is forensics that has not been released to the public yet. I think it has to do with ballistics or some signs of a struggle for the gun.

If the forensivs show the bullet going upward, then I don't see how Corey can possibly indict Zimmerman. What am I missing here?

Lots.

Look, I know it's not so simple. And what Commish wrote about different directions is true, I'm sure. But if the bullet traveled in such an angle as it would conclusively prove that Zimmerman was on his back on the ground with Trayvon above him, then to me that would be enough evidence that I could never convict Zimmerman. Just as if the screams are conclusively proved to be Trayvon's, then that would be enough evidence for me to convict Zimmerman. These are crucial points in the case, it seems to me, and would resolve uncertainty one way or the other.

Just because Trayvon was on top does not mean Zimmerman was in fear for his life. And that's just one thing.

HArd to proove how he felt when you throw in a broken nose, grass on his back, an eye witness saying Zimmerman was on his back and screamming for help, and throw in the "stand your Ground" law.

If all that's true, yes, it would be harder to prove. We don't know that all of that is true.

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

Sorry if this has been noted earlier in this massive thread but has there been any information released on the trajectory the bullet took? Was it going from down to upwards (as if Zimmerman shot him while on the ground and Martin was over him), was it the other way (with Zimmerman standing over Martin) or was it straight onward (meaning they were both standing)?

This is what I'm waiting for. Zimmerman's former lawyers have said there is forensics that has not been released to the public yet. I think it has to do with ballistics or some signs of a struggle for the gun.

If the forensivs show the bullet going upward, then I don't see how Corey can possibly indict Zimmerman. What am I missing here?

Lots.

Look, I know it's not so simple. And what Commish wrote about different directions is true, I'm sure. But if the bullet traveled in such an angle as it would conclusively prove that Zimmerman was on his back on the ground with Trayvon above him, then to me that would be enough evidence that I could never convict Zimmerman. Just as if the screams are conclusively proved to be Trayvon's, then that would be enough evidence for me to convict Zimmerman. These are crucial points in the case, it seems to me, and would resolve uncertainty one way or the other.

Unless Zim pulled the gun, Travon saw it, started to "sit up" screams for help and raised his hand in submission, and Zim still shot him while laying on his back.

 

[ATC1]

Sorry if this has been noted earlier in this massive thread but has there been any information released on the trajectory the bullet took? Was it going from down to upwards (as if Zimmerman shot him while on the ground and Martin was over him), was it the other way (with Zimmerman standing over Martin) or was it straight onward (meaning they were both standing)?

This is what I'm waiting for. Zimmerman's former lawyers have said there is forensics that has not been released to the public yet. I think it has to do with ballistics or some signs of a struggle for the gun.

If the forensivs show the bullet going upward, then I don't see how Corey can possibly indict Zimmerman. What am I missing here?

Lots.

Look, I know it's not so simple. And what Commish wrote about different directions is true, I'm sure. But if the bullet traveled in such an angle as it would conclusively prove that Zimmerman was on his back on the ground with Trayvon above him, then to me that would be enough evidence that I could never convict Zimmerman. Just as if the screams are conclusively proved to be Trayvon's, then that would be enough evidence for me to convict Zimmerman. These are crucial points in the case, it seems to me, and would resolve uncertainty one way or the other.

Unless Zim pulled the gun, Travon saw it, started to "sit up" screams for help and raised his hand in submission, and Zim still shot him while laying on his back.

As I have pointed out earlier in this thread, IF this is the case I could see convicting Zimmerman easily. Will be hard to proove. The screams for help were going on for a while before the bang.

 

[timschochet]

The screams for help were going on for a while before the bang.

And that's why I believe that if the prosecutor can prove the screams were from Martin, it would almost surely (see guys? no absolutes!) lead to a conviction. Because it would mean that, at the very least, Zimmerman had time to decide upon a course of action, and then chose to kill Martin. You don't take your time with self-defense.

 

[The Commish]

Typical bullets go several directions in the body depending on what they hit, what they're made of, what their designed to do etc. Through and through are the general exception. Not sure what "direction" by itself has to do with anything.

It could be a number of things. Trayvon's finger prints on the gun; A gun jam showing evidence of a struggle; GRS on Trayvon's hands or arms, to name a few.

Sure....I was just questioning the logic saying all that needs to be known is the direction of the bullet. It's one of the pieces, but by itself it's meaningless.

 

[The Commish]

Sorry if this has been noted earlier in this massive thread but has there been any information released on the trajectory the bullet took? Was it going from down to upwards (as if Zimmerman shot him while on the ground and Martin was over him), was it the other way (with Zimmerman standing over Martin) or was it straight onward (meaning they were both standing)?

This is what I'm waiting for. Zimmerman's former lawyers have said there is forensics that has not been released to the public yet. I think it has to do with ballistics or some signs of a struggle for the gun.

If the forensivs show the bullet going upward, then I don't see how Corey can possibly indict Zimmerman. What am I missing here?

Lots.

Look, I know it's not so simple. And what Commish wrote about different directions is true, I'm sure. But if the bullet traveled in such an angle as it would conclusively prove that Zimmerman was on his back on the ground with Trayvon above him, then to me that would be enough evidence that I could never convict Zimmerman. Just as if the screams are conclusively proved to be Trayvon's, then that would be enough evidence for me to convict Zimmerman. These are crucial points in the case, it seems to me, and would resolve uncertainty one way or the other.

Unless Zim pulled the gun, Travon saw it, started to "sit up" screams for help and raised his hand in submission, and Zim still shot him while laying on his back.

Several plausible scenarios can explain away "bullet direction"

 

[HellToupee]

Just because Trayvon was on top does not mean Zimmerman was in fear for his life. And that's just one thing.

It doesn't prove it, but it's enough to cause reasonable doubt, I should think. How could you possibly convict Zimmerman if you knew that this was the case?

Because there could be other evidence. Why do you keep speaking in absolutes? Never mind, I forgot the "Look at me" factor.

Biggest derailers in this thread,

Not just this thread

 

[jon_mx]

Holder is by far Obama's worst appointment. The last place that it is appriate to put an idotic partisan windbag is the Justice Department. Being an idiot is bad enough, throw in his far-left ideological agenda into a Department which should be above that kind of political agenda and it just makes this terrible. Holder is on a fishing expedition and I would bet he will press some charges against somebody regardless of the evidence.

 

[FavreCo]

quote name='Woogie Lee' timestamp='1334091783' post='14277611']

He's also having "off the record" conversations with Sean Hannity.



Proof he has gone insane. Setting up his defense nicely. Pure genius.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

Sorry if this has been noted earlier in this massive thread but has there been any information released on the trajectory the bullet took? Was it going from down to upwards (as if Zimmerman shot him while on the ground and Martin was over him), was it the other way (with Zimmerman standing over Martin) or was it straight onward (meaning they were both standing)?

This is what I'm waiting for. Zimmerman's former lawyers have said there is forensics that has not been released to the public yet. I think it has to do with ballistics or some signs of a struggle for the gun.

If the forensivs show the bullet going upward, then I don't see how Corey can possibly indict Zimmerman. What am I missing here?

Lots.

Look, I know it's not so simple. And what Commish wrote about different directions is true, I'm sure. But if the bullet traveled in such an angle as it would conclusively prove that Zimmerman was on his back on the ground with Trayvon above him, then to me that would be enough evidence that I could never convict Zimmerman. Just as if the screams are conclusively proved to be Trayvon's, then that would be enough evidence for me to convict Zimmerman. These are crucial points in the case, it seems to me, and would resolve uncertainty one way or the other.

Unless Zim pulled the gun, Travon saw it, started to "sit up" screams for help and raised his hand in submission, and Zim still shot him while laying on his back.

Several plausible scenarios can explain away "bullet direction"

the funeral director said he saw only an entry wound, no exit wound, not sure if that makes any difference

 

[BustedKnuckles]

Here's what I'm wondering (and keep in mind, this is just speculation): does Angela Corey have proof that she can demonstrate to a jury that the screaming on that tape is, in fact, Trayvon Martin?

Because if she has proof of that, then it seems to me that should be enough to convict Zimmerman. If Martin were the one screaming, "No! No!" then it doesn't matter if Martin was the one who attacked first. It wouldn't matter who is the aggressor, because it would prove that Zimmerman had the upper hand, could have held Martin at bay until the police arrived, or could have simply left the scene. The point is, he did not need to shoot Martin. Therefore, Zimmerman is definitely guilty of manslaughter or 2nd degree murder.

So if Corey can provide expert testimony or some other means to convince a jury that the screams were from Martin, I think that's enough. But I don't know if she has the means to prove this...

What she has to prove is up to the jury. If I was on the jury, your reasoning does not even come close to proving beyoud a reasonable doubt that Treyvon was retreating. I would need good eyewitness accounts in addition to that. Plus, the case law concerning stand you ground is probably different than most states, so the bar is probably a bit lower for when you can pull the trigger. If the case above where no charges were file against the guy who had to go to the car to get his gun and than shoot perpetrators who were hiding is any indication, the standard to when you can leathally use self-defense is really low, so a scream would not be enough.

The problem with asking this question is where you`re asking it (FBG)...we have 2 very wide divides here and it seems like no matter what evidence or possible evidence that comes to light, not to many people are willing to cross that divide.If you had an impartial jury who heard this case for the first time i couldnt imagine that too many people would dismiss those screams , if proven to be treyvon, and set zimmerman free. The problem for zimmerman is he brought the gun to that party, i think that may work against him even if it was him screaming and not trey. Im convinced (they lasted way to long ) the screams were not from someone being beaten but from someone who is trying not to get shot. That could be either trey or george.

The screams seem to have gone on for at least 10 seconds. Are you trying to say that someone would be screaming for help for 10 seconds because he had a gun pointed at him? That goes against the eyewitness accounts (with one man on top of another). Tough argument you're trying to make here.

the eyewitness accounts say that the two people were wrestling or fighting at close quarters. Im saying that they could have been wrestling for control of the gun, and that could last a while im guessing. If you and i are on the ground and i pull a gun out its very concievable that you would grab my arm to push it away from being aimed at you and that struggle could take 10 or 15 seconds before i got my arm loose long enough to get a shot off.

 

[The Commish]

Sorry if this has been noted earlier in this massive thread but has there been any information released on the trajectory the bullet took? Was it going from down to upwards (as if Zimmerman shot him while on the ground and Martin was over him), was it the other way (with Zimmerman standing over Martin) or was it straight onward (meaning they were both standing)?

This is what I'm waiting for. Zimmerman's former lawyers have said there is forensics that has not been released to the public yet. I think it has to do with ballistics or some signs of a struggle for the gun.

If the forensivs show the bullet going upward, then I don't see how Corey can possibly indict Zimmerman. What am I missing here?

Lots.

Look, I know it's not so simple. And what Commish wrote about different directions is true, I'm sure. But if the bullet traveled in such an angle as it would conclusively prove that Zimmerman was on his back on the ground with Trayvon above him, then to me that would be enough evidence that I could never convict Zimmerman. Just as if the screams are conclusively proved to be Trayvon's, then that would be enough evidence for me to convict Zimmerman. These are crucial points in the case, it seems to me, and would resolve uncertainty one way or the other.

Unless Zim pulled the gun, Travon saw it, started to "sit up" screams for help and raised his hand in submission, and Zim still shot him while laying on his back.

Several plausible scenarios can explain away "bullet direction"

the funeral director said he saw only an enrty wound, no exit wound, not sure if that makes any difference

COULD speak to velocity meaning, if it's a straight entry and didn't really hit any bones or ricochet around then the shot was probably at a distance. They'd probably be able to establish an "up close" shot with GSR on the kid's body though. Won't know until the evidence is out.

 

[Charlie Frown]

Sorry if this has been noted earlier in this massive thread but has there been any information released on the trajectory the bullet took? Was it going from down to upwards (as if Zimmerman shot him while on the ground and Martin was over him), was it the other way (with Zimmerman standing over Martin) or was it straight onward (meaning they were both standing)?

This is what I'm waiting for. Zimmerman's former lawyers have said there is forensics that has not been released to the public yet. I think it has to do with ballistics or some signs of a struggle for the gun.

If the forensivs show the bullet going upward, then I don't see how Corey can possibly indict Zimmerman. What am I missing here?

Lots.

Look, I know it's not so simple. And what Commish wrote about different directions is true, I'm sure. But if the bullet traveled in such an angle as it would conclusively prove that Zimmerman was on his back on the ground with Trayvon above him, then to me that would be enough evidence that I could never convict Zimmerman. Just as if the screams are conclusively proved to be Trayvon's, then that would be enough evidence for me to convict Zimmerman. These are crucial points in the case, it seems to me, and would resolve uncertainty one way or the other.

Just because Trayvon was on top does not mean Zimmerman was in fear for his life. And that's just one thing.

HArd to proove how he felt when you throw in a broken nose, grass on his back, an eye witness saying Zimmerman was on his back and screamming for help, and throw in the "stand your Ground" law.

If all that's true, yes, it would be harder to prove. We don't know that all of that is true.

We know Zimmerman took a beating (photographic evidence) and we have an eye witness to it in addition to a police report backing up Zimmerman's claim.

 

[TexanFan02]

Sorry if this has been noted earlier in this massive thread but has there been any information released on the trajectory the bullet took?

Was it going from down to upwards (as if Zimmerman shot him while on the ground and Martin was over him), was it the other way (with Zimmerman standing over Martin) or was it straight onward (meaning they were both standing)?

This is what I'm waiting for. Zimmerman's former lawyers have said there is forensics that has not been released to the public yet. I think it has to do with ballistics or some signs of a struggle for the gun.

If the forensivs show the bullet going upward, then I don't see how Corey can possibly indict Zimmerman. What am I missing here?

Lots.

Look, I know it's not so simple. And what Commish wrote about different directions is true, I'm sure. But if the bullet traveled in such an angle as it would conclusively prove that Zimmerman was on his back on the ground with Trayvon above him, then to me that would be enough evidence that I could never convict Zimmerman. Just as if the screams are conclusively proved to be Trayvon's, then that would be enough evidence for me to convict Zimmerman. These are crucial points in the case, it seems to me, and would resolve uncertainty one way or the other.

Just because Trayvon was on top does not mean Zimmerman was in fear for his life. And that's just one thing.

HArd to proove how he felt when you throw in a broken nose, grass on his back, an eye witness saying Zimmerman was on his back and screamming for help, and throw in the "stand your Ground" law.

If all that's true, yes, it would be harder to prove. We don't know that all of that is true.

We know Zimmerman took a beating (photographic evidence) and we have an eye witness to it in addition to a police report backing up Zimmerman's claim.

Really? And eyewitnesses differ on Zimmerman's claim.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

Sorry if this has been noted earlier in this massive thread but has there been any information released on the trajectory the bullet took?

Was it going from down to upwards (as if Zimmerman shot him while on the ground and Martin was over him), was it the other way (with Zimmerman standing over Martin) or was it straight onward (meaning they were both standing)?

This is what I'm waiting for. Zimmerman's former lawyers have said there is forensics that has not been released to the public yet. I think it has to do with ballistics or some signs of a struggle for the gun.

If the forensivs show the bullet going upward, then I don't see how Corey can possibly indict Zimmerman. What am I missing here?

Lots.

Look, I know it's not so simple. And what Commish wrote about different directions is true, I'm sure. But if the bullet traveled in such an angle as it would conclusively prove that Zimmerman was on his back on the ground with Trayvon above him, then to me that would be enough evidence that I could never convict Zimmerman. Just as if the screams are conclusively proved to be Trayvon's, then that would be enough evidence for me to convict Zimmerman. These are crucial points in the case, it seems to me, and would resolve uncertainty one way or the other.

Just because Trayvon was on top does not mean Zimmerman was in fear for his life. And that's just one thing.

HArd to proove how he felt when you throw in a broken nose, grass on his back, an eye witness saying Zimmerman was on his back and screamming for help, and throw in the "stand your Ground" law.

If all that's true, yes, it would be harder to prove. We don't know that all of that is true.

We know Zimmerman took a beating (photographic evidence) and we have an eye witness to it in addition to a police report backing up Zimmerman's claim.

the only look we have of zimmerman after thuis happened was at the police station and it looks like he got picked up by the cops for jaywalking...no marks...no blood. No photo`s have been released...im waiting for those AND some medical proof or injuries .

 

[TexanFan02]

Sorry if this has been noted earlier in this massive thread but has there been any information released on the trajectory the bullet took? Was it going from down to upwards (as if Zimmerman shot him while on the ground and Martin was over him), was it the other way (with Zimmerman standing over Martin) or was it straight onward (meaning they were both standing)?

This is what I'm waiting for. Zimmerman's former lawyers have said there is forensics that has not been released to the public yet. I think it has to do with ballistics or some signs of a struggle for the gun.

If the forensivs show the bullet going upward, then I don't see how Corey can possibly indict Zimmerman. What am I missing here?

Lots.

Look, I know it's not so simple. And what Commish wrote about different directions is true, I'm sure. But if the bullet traveled in such an angle as it would conclusively prove that Zimmerman was on his back on the ground with Trayvon above him, then to me that would be enough evidence that I could never convict Zimmerman. Just as if the screams are conclusively proved to be Trayvon's, then that would be enough evidence for me to convict Zimmerman. These are crucial points in the case, it seems to me, and would resolve uncertainty one way or the other.

Unless Zim pulled the gun, Travon saw it, started to "sit up" screams for help and raised his hand in submission, and Zim still shot him while laying on his back.

Several plausible scenarios can explain away "bullet direction"

the funeral director said he saw only an enrty wound, no exit wound, not sure if that makes any difference

COULD speak to velocity meaning, if it's a straight entry and didn't really hit any bones or ricochet around then the shot was probably at a distance. They'd probably be able to establish an "up close" shot with GSR on the kid's body though. Won't know until the evidence is out.

But wait, I thought if the shot was in the chest he was 100% not guilty?

 

[The Commish]

Sorry if this has been noted earlier in this massive thread but has there been any information released on the trajectory the bullet took? Was it going from down to upwards (as if Zimmerman shot him while on the ground and Martin was over him), was it the other way (with Zimmerman standing over Martin) or was it straight onward (meaning they were both standing)?

This is what I'm waiting for. Zimmerman's former lawyers have said there is forensics that has not been released to the public yet. I think it has to do with ballistics or some signs of a struggle for the gun.

If the forensivs show the bullet going upward, then I don't see how Corey can possibly indict Zimmerman. What am I missing here?

Lots.

Look, I know it's not so simple. And what Commish wrote about different directions is true, I'm sure. But if the bullet traveled in such an angle as it would conclusively prove that Zimmerman was on his back on the ground with Trayvon above him, then to me that would be enough evidence that I could never convict Zimmerman. Just as if the screams are conclusively proved to be Trayvon's, then that would be enough evidence for me to convict Zimmerman. These are crucial points in the case, it seems to me, and would resolve uncertainty one way or the other.

Unless Zim pulled the gun, Travon saw it, started to "sit up" screams for help and raised his hand in submission, and Zim still shot him while laying on his back.

Several plausible scenarios can explain away "bullet direction"

the funeral director said he saw only an enrty wound, no exit wound, not sure if that makes any difference

COULD speak to velocity meaning, if it's a straight entry and didn't really hit any bones or ricochet around then the shot was probably at a distance. They'd probably be able to establish an "up close" shot with GSR on the kid's body though. Won't know until the evidence is out.

But wait, I thought if the shot was in the chest he was 100% not guilty?

 

[BRONG]

Christo 900

Carolina Hustler 665

BustedKnuckles 512

timschochet 479

 

[Charlie Frown]

Sorry if this has been noted earlier in this massive thread but has there been any information released on the trajectory the bullet took?

Was it going from down to upwards (as if Zimmerman shot him while on the ground and Martin was over him), was it the other way (with Zimmerman standing over Martin) or was it straight onward (meaning they were both standing)?

This is what I'm waiting for. Zimmerman's former lawyers have said there is forensics that has not been released to the public yet. I think it has to do with ballistics or some signs of a struggle for the gun.

If the forensivs show the bullet going upward, then I don't see how Corey can possibly indict Zimmerman. What am I missing here?

Lots.

Look, I know it's not so simple. And what Commish wrote about different directions is true, I'm sure. But if the bullet traveled in such an angle as it would conclusively prove that Zimmerman was on his back on the ground with Trayvon above him, then to me that would be enough evidence that I could never convict Zimmerman. Just as if the screams are conclusively proved to be Trayvon's, then that would be enough evidence for me to convict Zimmerman. These are crucial points in the case, it seems to me, and would resolve uncertainty one way or the other.

Just because Trayvon was on top does not mean Zimmerman was in fear for his life. And that's just one thing.

HArd to proove how he felt when you throw in a broken nose, grass on his back, an eye witness saying Zimmerman was on his back and screamming for help, and throw in the "stand your Ground" law.

If all that's true, yes, it would be harder to prove. We don't know that all of that is true.

We know Zimmerman took a beating (photographic evidence) and we have an eye witness to it in addition to a police report backing up Zimmerman's claim.

the only look we have of zimmerman after thuis happened was at the police station and it looks like he got picked up by the cops for jaywalking...no marks...no blood. No photo`s have been released...im waiting for those AND some medical proof or injuries .

looks like a possible broken nose and head lac to me.

 

[TexanFan02]

looks like a possible broken nose and head lac to me.

"Possible". Hard to tell from that.