Florida boy killed by Neighborhood Watch (2 Viewers)

[Christo]

Just read these comments, didn't find them particularly compelling. This hearing was a huge win for Zimmerman, regardless of whether Chaos Commish thinks it was mean to express his sorrow to the family even though they didn't want to hear it. The family, with their rush to the USPTO to trademark catch phrases with their son's name while the body is still warm, and their full-on media blitz (how many times have they appeared on Anderson Cooper already?), isn't making the most compelling case in the world for my sympathy anyway.

Their son was killed and they trademarked two slogans for a charitable foundation in his name. Take issue with the copyright? That's lame. They also moved to stop the use of their sons image as a thug for gun rights advocates. If your daughter was shot and killed by neighborhood watch would you want her image used by those who thought it was a good shoot? People who do not understand the context of Zimmerman's self serving apology think he did a nice thing and came off well. Good for the defense. He lied to the parents' faces, changed his story, answered only those questions that might serve him and did so dishonestly. He didn't state that he was answering Sybrina's rhetorical questions (which have haunted him) from a month ago. He just crafted a paragraph that addressed them making himself look good. Google Sybrina Fulton's questions for George and you'll see why he chose those three questions. The others are a little rougher, like if you could do it again would you still pull the trigger? There's an angry media with a huge following who understand. You haven't been following closely (kudos). Maybe that's more representative, but I don't care. It was a nasty move from my box which is following this too closely. I'm going golfing now.

ATC said they didn't want a private apology but a public one. They never asked for a public one unless it was again a rhetorical request from the sentencing hearing of a convicted George Zimmerman.

The Martin family is hurting, I understand, but they've been building a mob in the media for the last 2 months.. If they can continue to spout off publicly, then I see nothing wrong with Zimerman doing damage control.. His life is on the line now. Trasyvon is gone and can't be brought back.. If they're doing everything they can to damage him at this point, it's his responsibility to himself and his family to do damage control.

Damage control is standing up in front of the mother and father whose son you killed and lying to their faces in front of the nation? Sorry, that stoked the fires he should be trying to put out. His statement went over well with the likes of Otis (those not following very closely) and those who have been supportive of him. But neither of those groups needed damage control. His statement drew outrage (rightfully so) from those who've been protesting. He didn't control damage, he caused more.

Believe me, he said exactly what he and his attorney rehearsed. It was for the courtroom not the public. Nothing he was going to say short of an admission of guilt was going to make the Martin family or their supporters happy.

You'd like to think so, but what possible reason could he have had for stating that he thought Trayvon was a little younger than him and that he didn't know how old he was... when we all know he very accurately said "late teens" to the dispatcher? Are you suggesting the lie/error was planned?

He didn't know how old Martin was on that night. He might have thought he was a teen when he made the call. That belief might have changed when he came face to face with Martin.You have no clue if he lied on the stand Friday.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

I see the "Look at me!" batsignal went out and attracted Otis to combat Tim. It's like Godzilla vs Mothra, but less cool.

And what is your purpose here.. ?

His sole purpose in life is to increase my post count in this thread. I kind of like that his happiness is dependent upon me.

Not true. Tim's taken that over now. My work here is done. I still want justice for Trayvon though. If that means aggravating people the likes of you, John mx, Boneyard Dog, Carolina Hustler etc., so be it. Not the posters I would want to be associated with, but everything is about you, so I'm sure you're fine with it.

Without knowing the real story, how can you judge the conclusion, what will "Justice for Trayvon" be? Because at this point, he might have already gotten the justice he deserved.. You can't know..

How do you know?

Even if Zimmerman's story turns out to be the entire truth, then a 17 year old kid died because he felt himself threatened and decided to attack first. To me, that's a tragedy, no matter how you look at it. Even if Trayvon was a punk, it's still a tragedy, because he was a young man and could change. He's dead, and that's not justice.

What if he didn't feel threatened, but he was just a punk?

 

[timschochet]

Carolina Hustler, oustside of Christo you have made more posts than anyone in this thread. Yet, IMO, you have contributed absolutely nothing of value. You respond to nearly every post, and you agree with nearly every post which appears to be in Zimmerman's favor, while you disagree with every post that could in any way be critical of Zimmerman. But in your disagreements you offer nothing new, you simply repeat the same arguments over and over which were originated and stated better elsewhere. You have shown no willingness whatsoever to question or consider aspects of this case. You claim you want to see justice served, but for you that means only a complete exoneration of George Zimmerman and nothing less. I regard your postings as pretty worthless as a result.

of course, when you hear something you don't want to hear.. Contradicting yourself here anyways, and anyone who has kept up can tell you..

When I hear something I don't want to hear, I examine it, consider it, and allow it to alter my judgment if necessary. That's what mature adults do. If you're able to do this, you certainly have not demonstrated the ability in this thread.Several posters here have written things I didn't want to hear: Christo, Chaos Commish, Identikit, Renesauz, etc. They have all offered new insight. What have you offered?

 

[Christo]

Without knowing the real story, how can you judge the conclusion, what will "Justice for Trayvon" be? Because at this point, he might have already gotten the justice he deserved.. You can't know..

How do you know?

Even if Zimmerman's story turns out to be the entire truth, then a 17 year old kid died because he felt himself threatened and decided to attack first. To me, that's a tragedy, no matter how you look at it. Even if Trayvon was a punk, it's still a tragedy, because he was a young man and could change. He's dead, and that's not justice.

Given the fact that no one can give Martin his life back, what would justice for Martin be if Zimmerman's story is the truth?

 

[Chaos Commish]

Your outrage is all based on the age thing? Couldn't it be at some point during the confrontation that he thought Trayvon was older than his initial figure?

Yeah, I already guessed he would spin the error this that way. I think it was a ###### thing to do to the parents who probably have that call memorized, and who declined a private apology. If I was Tracy Martin, I would have called him a liar and begged for him to stphu.

 

[timschochet]

Without knowing the real story, how can you judge the conclusion, what will "Justice for Trayvon" be? Because at this point, he might have already gotten the justice he deserved.. You can't know..

How do you know?

Even if Zimmerman's story turns out to be the entire truth, then a 17 year old kid died because he felt himself threatened and decided to attack first. To me, that's a tragedy, no matter how you look at it. Even if Trayvon was a punk, it's still a tragedy, because he was a young man and could change. He's dead, and that's not justice.

Given the fact that no one can give Martin his life back, what would justice for Martin be if Zimmerman's story is the truth?

If that's the case, there is none.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

I see the "Look at me!" batsignal went out and attracted Otis to combat Tim. It's like Godzilla vs Mothra, but less cool.

And what is your purpose here.. ?

His sole purpose in life is to increase my post count in this thread. I kind of like that his happiness is dependent upon me.

Not true. Tim's taken that over now. My work here is done. I still want justice for Trayvon though. If that means aggravating people the likes of you, John mx, Boneyard Dog, Carolina Hustler etc., so be it. Not the posters I would want to be associated with, but everything is about you, so I'm sure you're fine with it.

Without knowing the real story, how can you judge the conclusion, what will "Justice for Trayvon" be? Because at this point, he might have already gotten the justice he deserved.. You can't know..

Attack someone you don't know in the middle of the night, brake their nose, bash their head, they have a gun, you get what you get..

He didn't deserve to die.

His actions may not have warranted death, but maybe death was a logical conclusion based on his actions.. Give me a serious YES or NO (only, one word, yes or no) If someone you didn't know, attacked you in the middle of the night, broke your nose, was on top of you, bashing your head into the ground, you couldn't get him off, he wouldn't stop, cries for help brought no help..

You have a gun, would you use it?

 

[Chaos Commish]

Just read these comments, didn't find them particularly compelling. This hearing was a huge win for Zimmerman, regardless of whether Chaos Commish thinks it was mean to express his sorrow to the family even though they didn't want to hear it. The family, with their rush to the USPTO to trademark catch phrases with their son's name while the body is still warm, and their full-on media blitz (how many times have they appeared on Anderson Cooper already?), isn't making the most compelling case in the world for my sympathy anyway.

Their son was killed and they trademarked two slogans for a charitable foundation in his name. Take issue with the copyright? That's lame. They also moved to stop the use of their sons image as a thug for gun rights advocates. If your daughter was shot and killed by neighborhood watch would you want her image used by those who thought it was a good shoot? People who do not understand the context of Zimmerman's self serving apology think he did a nice thing and came off well. Good for the defense. He lied to the parents' faces, changed his story, answered only those questions that might serve him and did so dishonestly. He didn't state that he was answering Sybrina's rhetorical questions (which have haunted him) from a month ago. He just crafted a paragraph that addressed them making himself look good. Google Sybrina Fulton's questions for George and you'll see why he chose those three questions. The others are a little rougher, like if you could do it again would you still pull the trigger? There's an angry media with a huge following who understand. You haven't been following closely (kudos). Maybe that's more representative, but I don't care. It was a nasty move from my box which is following this too closely. I'm going golfing now.

ATC said they didn't want a private apology but a public one. They never asked for a public one unless it was again a rhetorical request from the sentencing hearing of a convicted George Zimmerman.

The Martin family is hurting, I understand, but they've been building a mob in the media for the last 2 months.. If they can continue to spout off publicly, then I see nothing wrong with Zimerman doing damage control.. His life is on the line now. Trasyvon is gone and can't be brought back.. If they're doing everything they can to damage him at this point, it's his responsibility to himself and his family to do damage control.

Damage control is standing up in front of the mother and father whose son you killed and lying to their faces in front of the nation? Sorry, that stoked the fires he should be trying to put out. His statement went over well with the likes of Otis (those not following very closely) and those who have been supportive of him. But neither of those groups needed damage control. His statement drew outrage (rightfully so) from those who've been protesting. He didn't control damage, he caused more.

Believe me, he said exactly what he and his attorney rehearsed. It was for the courtroom not the public. Nothing he was going to say short of an admission of guilt was going to make the Martin family or their supporters happy.

You'd like to think so, but what possible reason could he have had for stating that he thought Trayvon was a little younger than him and that he didn't know how old he was... when we all know he very accurately said "late teens" to the dispatcher? Are you suggesting the lie/error was planned?

He didn't know how old Martin was on that night. He might have thought he was a teen when he made the call. That belief might have changed when he came face to face with Martin.You have no clue if he lied on the stand Friday.

You didn't answer the question I'm more interested in getting your opinion on. You said he said exactly what he rehearsed. Are you suggesting they planned the controversial comments about the son's age? If so why?

 

[timschochet]

I see the "Look at me!" batsignal went out and attracted Otis to combat Tim. It's like Godzilla vs Mothra, but less cool.

And what is your purpose here.. ?

His sole purpose in life is to increase my post count in this thread. I kind of like that his happiness is dependent upon me.

Not true. Tim's taken that over now. My work here is done. I still want justice for Trayvon though. If that means aggravating people the likes of you, John mx, Boneyard Dog, Carolina Hustler etc., so be it. Not the posters I would want to be associated with, but everything is about you, so I'm sure you're fine with it.

Without knowing the real story, how can you judge the conclusion, what will "Justice for Trayvon" be? Because at this point, he might have already gotten the justice he deserved.. You can't know..

Attack someone you don't know in the middle of the night, brake their nose, bash their head, they have a gun, you get what you get..

He didn't deserve to die.

His actions may not have warranted death, but maybe death was a logical conclusion based on his actions.. Give me a serious YES or NO (only, one word, yes or no) If someone you didn't know, attacked you in the middle of the night, broke your nose, was on top of you, bashing your head into the ground, you couldn't get him off, he wouldn't stop, cries for help brought no help..

You have a gun, would you use it?

yes

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Carolina Hustler, oustside of Christo you have made more posts than anyone in this thread. Yet, IMO, you have contributed absolutely nothing of value. You respond to nearly every post, and you agree with nearly every post which appears to be in Zimmerman's favor, while you disagree with every post that could in any way be critical of Zimmerman. But in your disagreements you offer nothing new, you simply repeat the same arguments over and over which were originated and stated better elsewhere. You have shown no willingness whatsoever to question or consider aspects of this case. You claim you want to see justice served, but for you that means only a complete exoneration of George Zimmerman and nothing less. I regard your postings as pretty worthless as a result.

of course, when you hear something you don't want to hear.. Contradicting yourself here anyways, and anyone who has kept up can tell you..

When I hear something I don't want to hear, I examine it, consider it, and allow it to alter my judgment if necessary. That's what mature adults do. If you're able to do this, you certainly have not demonstrated the ability in this thread.Several posters here have written things I didn't want to hear: Christo, Chaos Commish, Identikit, Renesauz, etc. They have all offered new insight. What have you offered?

Based only on your interpretation in this thread, someone could come to the conclusion that I've brought many new thoughts and perspective discussions.. Now you don't like what I posted today and contradict yourself..I really don't care though.. so on with your nonsense, I'll continue to argue against some of your ridiculous assertions..

 

[identikit]

I see the "Look at me!" batsignal went out and attracted Otis to combat Tim. It's like Godzilla vs Mothra, but less cool.

And what is your purpose here.. ?

His sole purpose in life is to increase my post count in this thread. I kind of like that his happiness is dependent upon me.

Not true. Tim's taken that over now. My work here is done. I still want justice for Trayvon though. If that means aggravating people the likes of you, John mx, Boneyard Dog, Carolina Hustler etc., so be it. Not the posters I would want to be associated with, but everything is about you, so I'm sure you're fine with it.

Without knowing the real story, how can you judge the conclusion, what will "Justice for Trayvon" be? Because at this point, he might have already gotten the justice he deserved.. You can't know..

Attack someone you don't know in the middle of the night, brake their nose, bash their head, they have a gun, you get what you get..

He didn't deserve to die.

His actions may not have warranted death, but maybe death was a logical conclusion based on his actions.. Give me a serious YES or NO (only, one word, yes or no) If someone you didn't know, attacked you in the middle of the night, broke your nose, was on top of you, bashing your head into the ground, you couldn't get him off, he wouldn't stop, cries for help brought no help..

You have a gun, would you use it?

yes

Now what if your attacker was black?

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Your outrage is all based on the age thing? Couldn't it be at some point during the confrontation that he thought Trayvon was older than his initial figure?

Yeah, I already guessed he would spin the error this that way. I think it was a ###### thing to do to the parents who probably have that call memorized, and who declined a private apology. If I was Tracy Martin, I would have called him a liar and begged for him to stphu.

Well, if it is as Christo describes.. Then it really doesn't matter.. The Martins have been unreasonable from the start (not that we should expect different from someone losing their child) and Zimmerman can't change things for them, he needs to do the best he can for himself and his family.. At this point, the Martins aren't going to be happy with anything he says, why care what they think? They're trying to put him away, regardless of the truth, and in the process they've been pretty deceptive and manipulating..

 

[Chaos Commish]

His actions may not have warranted death, but maybe death was a logical conclusion based on his actions..

Give me a serious YES or NO (only, one word, yes or no) If someone you didn't know, attacked you in the middle of the night, broke your nose, was on top of you, bashing your head into the ground, you couldn't get him off, he wouldn't stop, cries for help brought no help..

You have a gun, would you use it?

yes

Now what if your attacker was black?

bad form here

 

[identikit]

His actions may not have warranted death, but maybe death was a logical conclusion based on his actions..

Give me a serious YES or NO (only, one word, yes or no) If someone you didn't know, attacked you in the middle of the night, broke your nose, was on top of you, bashing your head into the ground, you couldn't get him off, he wouldn't stop, cries for help brought no help..

You have a gun, would you use it?

yes

Now what if your attacker was black?

bad form here

For Tim, that question works, I think.

 

[Christo]

Just read these comments, didn't find them particularly compelling. This hearing was a huge win for Zimmerman, regardless of whether Chaos Commish thinks it was mean to express his sorrow to the family even though they didn't want to hear it. The family, with their rush to the USPTO to trademark catch phrases with their son's name while the body is still warm, and their full-on media blitz (how many times have they appeared on Anderson Cooper already?), isn't making the most compelling case in the world for my sympathy anyway.

Their son was killed and they trademarked two slogans for a charitable foundation in his name. Take issue with the copyright? That's lame. They also moved to stop the use of their sons image as a thug for gun rights advocates. If your daughter was shot and killed by neighborhood watch would you want her image used by those who thought it was a good shoot? People who do not understand the context of Zimmerman's self serving apology think he did a nice thing and came off well. Good for the defense. He lied to the parents' faces, changed his story, answered only those questions that might serve him and did so dishonestly. He didn't state that he was answering Sybrina's rhetorical questions (which have haunted him) from a month ago. He just crafted a paragraph that addressed them making himself look good. Google Sybrina Fulton's questions for George and you'll see why he chose those three questions. The others are a little rougher, like if you could do it again would you still pull the trigger? There's an angry media with a huge following who understand. You haven't been following closely (kudos). Maybe that's more representative, but I don't care. It was a nasty move from my box which is following this too closely. I'm going golfing now.

ATC said they didn't want a private apology but a public one. They never asked for a public one unless it was again a rhetorical request from the sentencing hearing of a convicted George Zimmerman.

The Martin family is hurting, I understand, but they've been building a mob in the media for the last 2 months.. If they can continue to spout off publicly, then I see nothing wrong with Zimerman doing damage control.. His life is on the line now. Trasyvon is gone and can't be brought back.. If they're doing everything they can to damage him at this point, it's his responsibility to himself and his family to do damage control.

Damage control is standing up in front of the mother and father whose son you killed and lying to their faces in front of the nation? Sorry, that stoked the fires he should be trying to put out. His statement went over well with the likes of Otis (those not following very closely) and those who have been supportive of him. But neither of those groups needed damage control. His statement drew outrage (rightfully so) from those who've been protesting. He didn't control damage, he caused more.

Believe me, he said exactly what he and his attorney rehearsed. It was for the courtroom not the public. Nothing he was going to say short of an admission of guilt was going to make the Martin family or their supporters happy.

You'd like to think so, but what possible reason could he have had for stating that he thought Trayvon was a little younger than him and that he didn't know how old he was... when we all know he very accurately said "late teens" to the dispatcher? Are you suggesting the lie/error was planned?

He didn't know how old Martin was on that night. He might have thought he was a teen when he made the call. That belief might have changed when he came face to face with Martin.You have no clue if he lied on the stand Friday.

You didn't answer the question I'm more interested in getting your opinion on. You said he said exactly what he rehearsed. Are you suggesting they planned the controversial comments about the son's age? If so why?

You called it a lie/error. We don't know if it was a lie/error. For all we know, after Zimmerman was taken back to the station he told the cops he originally thought Martin was a teen but when he came face to face with him he was a older than he had originally thought. A lot has been made in the press about Martin being a teen, a child even. The Martin family and the press did a good job of molding the 250 pound armed adult versus the Skittle carrying child story. The defense may be setting up their their theory for the pre-trial immunity hearing and/or trial that Zimmerman thought Martin was older than he was. Which could help them with their defense-especially the reasonability of the use of force.

 

[Otis]

I see the "Look at me!" batsignal went out and attracted Otis to combat Tim. It's like Godzilla vs Mothra, but less cool.

Two guys aren't even in the same league IMO.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

His actions may not have warranted death, but maybe death was a logical conclusion based on his actions..

Give me a serious YES or NO (only, one word, yes or no) If someone you didn't know, attacked you in the middle of the night, broke your nose, was on top of you, bashing your head into the ground, you couldn't get him off, he wouldn't stop, cries for help brought no help..

You have a gun, would you use it?

yes

Now what if your attacker was black?

bad form here

For Tim, that question works, I think.

Not really a fair question to ask IMO.. Tim gave a responsible/truthful answer. To me your question is antagonistic, if that was the intent, maybe unwarranted..

 

[Chaos Commish]

Just read these comments, didn't find them particularly compelling. This hearing was a huge win for Zimmerman, regardless of whether Chaos Commish thinks it was mean to express his sorrow to the family even though they didn't want to hear it. The family, with their rush to the USPTO to trademark catch phrases with their son's name while the body is still warm, and their full-on media blitz (how many times have they appeared on Anderson Cooper already?), isn't making the most compelling case in the world for my sympathy anyway.

Their son was killed and they trademarked two slogans for a charitable foundation in his name. Take issue with the copyright? That's lame. They also moved to stop the use of their sons image as a thug for gun rights advocates. If your daughter was shot and killed by neighborhood watch would you want her image used by those who thought it was a good shoot? People who do not understand the context of Zimmerman's self serving apology think he did a nice thing and came off well. Good for the defense. He lied to the parents' faces, changed his story, answered only those questions that might serve him and did so dishonestly. He didn't state that he was answering Sybrina's rhetorical questions (which have haunted him) from a month ago. He just crafted a paragraph that addressed them making himself look good. Google Sybrina Fulton's questions for George and you'll see why he chose those three questions. The others are a little rougher, like if you could do it again would you still pull the trigger? There's an angry media with a huge following who understand. You haven't been following closely (kudos). Maybe that's more representative, but I don't care. It was a nasty move from my box which is following this too closely. I'm going golfing now.

ATC said they didn't want a private apology but a public one. They never asked for a public one unless it was again a rhetorical request from the sentencing hearing of a convicted George Zimmerman.

The Martin family is hurting, I understand, but they've been building a mob in the media for the last 2 months.. If they can continue to spout off publicly, then I see nothing wrong with Zimerman doing damage control.. His life is on the line now. Trasyvon is gone and can't be brought back.. If they're doing everything they can to damage him at this point, it's his responsibility to himself and his family to do damage control.

Damage control is standing up in front of the mother and father whose son you killed and lying to their faces in front of the nation? Sorry, that stoked the fires he should be trying to put out. His statement went over well with the likes of Otis (those not following very closely) and those who have been supportive of him. But neither of those groups needed damage control. His statement drew outrage (rightfully so) from those who've been protesting. He didn't control damage, he caused more.

Believe me, he said exactly what he and his attorney rehearsed. It was for the courtroom not the public. Nothing he was going to say short of an admission of guilt was going to make the Martin family or their supporters happy.

You'd like to think so, but what possible reason could he have had for stating that he thought Trayvon was a little younger than him and that he didn't know how old he was... when we all know he very accurately said "late teens" to the dispatcher? Are you suggesting the lie/error was planned?

He didn't know how old Martin was on that night. He might have thought he was a teen when he made the call. That belief might have changed when he came face to face with Martin.You have no clue if he lied on the stand Friday.

You didn't answer the question I'm more interested in getting your opinion on. You said he said exactly what he rehearsed. Are you suggesting they planned the controversial comments about the son's age? If so why?

You called it a lie/error. We don't know if it was a lie/error. For all we know, after Zimmerman was taken back to the station he told the cops he originally thought Martin was a teen but when he came face to face with him he was a older than he had originally thought. A lot has been made in the press about Martin being a teen, a child even. The Martin family and the press did a good job of molding the 250 pound armed adult versus the Skittle carrying child story. They very well be setting up their their theory for the pre-trial immunity hearing and/or trial that Zimmerman thought Martin was older than he was. Which could help them with their defense-especially the reasonability of the use of force.

I rephrased lie/error to controversial comments just for you and I still don't think I got an answer. Do you think George said exactly what his attorney had approved/rehearsed?

 

[Carolina Hustler]

I see the "Look at me!" batsignal went out and attracted Otis to combat Tim. It's like Godzilla vs Mothra, but less cool.

Two guys aren't even in the same league IMO.

Mothra was never a real match for Godzilla..

 

[Otis]

Just read these comments, didn't find them particularly compelling. This hearing was a huge win for Zimmerman, regardless of whether Chaos Commish thinks it was mean to express his sorrow to the family even though they didn't want to hear it. The family, with their rush to the USPTO to trademark catch phrases with their son's name while the body is still warm, and their full-on media blitz (how many times have they appeared on Anderson Cooper already?), isn't making the most compelling case in the world for my sympathy anyway.

Their son was killed and they trademarked two slogans for a charitable foundation in his name. Take issue with the copyright? That's lame. They also moved to stop the use of their sons image as a thug for gun rights advocates. If your daughter was shot and killed by neighborhood watch would you want her image used by those who thought it was a good shoot? People who do not understand the context of Zimmerman's self serving apology think he did a nice thing and came off well. Good for the defense. He lied to the parents' faces, changed his story, answered only those questions that might serve him and did so dishonestly. He didn't state that he was answering Sybrina's rhetorical questions (which have haunted him) from a month ago. He just crafted a paragraph that addressed them making himself look good. Google Sybrina Fulton's questions for George and you'll see why he chose those three questions. The others are a little rougher, like if you could do it again would you still pull the trigger? There's an angry media with a huge following who understand. You haven't been following closely (kudos). Maybe that's more representative, but I don't care. It was a nasty move from my box which is following this too closely. I'm going golfing now. ATC said they didn't want a private apology but a public one. They never asked for a public one unless it was again a rhetorical request from the sentencing hearing of a convicted George Zimmerman.

The Martin family is hurting, I understand, but they've been building a mob in the media for the last 2 months.. If they can continue to spout off publicly, then I see nothing wrong with Zimerman doing damage control.. His life is on the line now. Trasyvon is gone and can't be brought back.. If they're doing everything they can to damage him at this point, it's his responsibility to himself and his family to do damage control.

Damage control is standing up in front of the mother and father whose son you killed and lying to their faces in front of the nation? Sorry, that stoked the fires he should be trying to put out. His statement went over well with the likes of Otis (those not following very closely) and those who have been supportive of him. But neither of those groups needed damage control. His statement drew outrage (rightfully so) from those who've been protesting. He didn't control damage, he caused more.

What was his lie?

 

[identikit]

His actions may not have warranted death, but maybe death was a logical conclusion based on his actions..

Give me a serious YES or NO (only, one word, yes or no) If someone you didn't know, attacked you in the middle of the night, broke your nose, was on top of you, bashing your head into the ground, you couldn't get him off, he wouldn't stop, cries for help brought no help..

You have a gun, would you use it?

yes

Now what if your attacker was black?

bad form here

For Tim, that question works, I think.

Not really a fair question to ask IMO.. Tim gave a responsible/truthful answer. To me your question is antagonistic, if that was the intent, maybe unwarranted..

Legitimate question.He makes the distinction a lot.

 

[Otis]

Just read these comments, didn't find them particularly compelling. This hearing was a huge win for Zimmerman, regardless of whether Chaos Commish thinks it was mean to express his sorrow to the family even though they didn't want to hear it. The family, with their rush to the USPTO to trademark catch phrases with their son's name while the body is still warm, and their full-on media blitz (how many times have they appeared on Anderson Cooper already?), isn't making the most compelling case in the world for my sympathy anyway.

Their son was killed and they trademarked two slogans for a charitable foundation in his name. Take issue with the copyright? That's lame. They also moved to stop the use of their sons image as a thug for gun rights advocates. If your daughter was shot and killed by neighborhood watch would you want her image used by those who thought it was a good shoot? People who do not understand the context of Zimmerman's self serving apology think he did a nice thing and came off well. Good for the defense. He lied to the parents' faces, changed his story, answered only those questions that might serve him and did so dishonestly. He didn't state that he was answering Sybrina's rhetorical questions (which have haunted him) from a month ago. He just crafted a paragraph that addressed them making himself look good. Google Sybrina Fulton's questions for George and you'll see why he chose those three questions. The others are a little rougher, like if you could do it again would you still pull the trigger? There's an angry media with a huge following who understand. You haven't been following closely (kudos). Maybe that's more representative, but I don't care. It was a nasty move from my box which is following this too closely. I'm going golfing now.

ATC said they didn't want a private apology but a public one. They never asked for a public one unless it was again a rhetorical request from the sentencing hearing of a convicted George Zimmerman.

The Martin family is hurting, I understand, but they've been building a mob in the media for the last 2 months.. If they can continue to spout off publicly, then I see nothing wrong with Zimerman doing damage control.. His life is on the line now. Trasyvon is gone and can't be brought back.. If they're doing everything they can to damage him at this point, it's his responsibility to himself and his family to do damage control.

Damage control is standing up in front of the mother and father whose son you killed and lying to their faces in front of the nation? Sorry, that stoked the fires he should be trying to put out. His statement went over well with the likes of Otis (those not following very closely) and those who have been supportive of him. But neither of those groups needed damage control. His statement drew outrage (rightfully so) from those who've been protesting. He didn't control damage, he caused more.

Believe me, he said exactly what he and his attorney rehearsed. It was for the courtroom not the public. Nothing he was going to say short of an admission of guilt was going to make the Martin family or their supporters happy.

You'd like to think so, but what possible reason could he have had for stating that he thought Trayvon was a little younger than him and that he didn't know how old he was... when we all know he very accurately said "late teens" to the dispatcher? Are you suggesting the lie/error was planned?

He didn't know how old Martin was on that night. He might have thought he was a teen when he made the call. That belief might have changed when he came face to face with Martin.You have no clue if he lied on the stand Friday.

This.

 

[timschochet]

His actions may not have warranted death, but maybe death was a logical conclusion based on his actions..

Give me a serious YES or NO (only, one word, yes or no) If someone you didn't know, attacked you in the middle of the night, broke your nose, was on top of you, bashing your head into the ground, you couldn't get him off, he wouldn't stop, cries for help brought no help..

You have a gun, would you use it?

yes

Now what if your attacker was black?

bad form here

For Tim, that question works, I think.

Not really a fair question to ask IMO.. Tim gave a responsible/truthful answer. To me your question is antagonistic, if that was the intent, maybe unwarranted..

Legitimate question.He makes the distinction a lot.

Let's end this crap, shall we? The answer is still yes. I figured you were making a tasteless joke when you asked me. If you were serious, then you really haven't read me or you are a fool. I would prefer to think you weren't serious.

 

[Chaos Commish]

What was his lie?

Christo is correct that I cannot prove it was a lie. I call it a lie because of the firestorm it created among the protesters who are all calling it a lie. During his call to the police Zimmerman guessed Trayvon to be in his late teens.It turned out that was correct.Three weeks later in a series of rhetorical questions Trayvon's mom was prompted to give in a what would you ask the killer interview, one question was did you know how young my son was?Three weeks after that George says NO. I thought he was a little younger than me. Well, the late teens thing is out there and the controversy over whether or not it was a self serving lie took wing. Make sense?

 

[Otis]

I see the "Look at me!" batsignal went out and attracted Otis to combat Tim. It's like Godzilla vs Mothra, but less cool.

And what is your purpose here.. ?

His sole purpose in life is to increase my post count in this thread. I kind of like that his happiness is dependent upon me.

Not true. Tim's taken that over now. My work here is done. I still want justice for Trayvon though. If that means aggravating people the likes of you, John mx, Boneyard Dog, Carolina Hustler etc., so be it. Not the posters I would want to be associated with, but everything is about you, so I'm sure you're fine with it.

Without knowing the real story, how can you judge the conclusion, what will "Justice for Trayvon" be? Because at this point, he might have already gotten the justice he deserved.. You can't know..

Attack someone you don't know in the middle of the night, brake their nose, bash their head, they have a gun, you get what you get..

He didn't deserve to die.

His actions may not have warranted death, but maybe death was a logical conclusion based on his actions.. Give me a serious YES or NO (only, one word, yes or no) If someone you didn't know, attacked you in the middle of the night, broke your nose, was on top of you, bashing your head into the ground, you couldn't get him off, he wouldn't stop, cries for help brought no help..

You have a gun, would you use it?

Better believe I would.By the way, is this a proven fact, that Zimmerman had a broken nose? If so, I don't understand how this "hunter" story works. He went out looking for the kid, stalking him in the night, looking to shoot him with a gun. Then he lets the kid walk up to him and break his nose and THEN shoots him?

 

[Carolina Hustler]

His actions may not have warranted death, but maybe death was a logical conclusion based on his actions..

Give me a serious YES or NO (only, one word, yes or no) If someone you didn't know, attacked you in the middle of the night, broke your nose, was on top of you, bashing your head into the ground, you couldn't get him off, he wouldn't stop, cries for help brought no help..

You have a gun, would you use it?

yes

Now what if your attacker was black?

bad form here

For Tim, that question works, I think.

Not really a fair question to ask IMO.. Tim gave a responsible/truthful answer. To me your question is antagonistic, if that was the intent, maybe unwarranted..

Legitimate question.He makes the distinction a lot.

I think the assumption was already made that the attacker was black, and even if not, I don't think Tim would be willing to draw a distinction for us even if he though it did change things for him..A better question would be, since you said yes, Tim, do you now deserve jail time if the person you shot dies?

 

[Otis]

I see the "Look at me!" batsignal went out and attracted Otis to combat Tim. It's like Godzilla vs Mothra, but less cool.

Two guys aren't even in the same league IMO.

Mothra was never a real match for Godzilla..

Exactly.

 

[Chaos Commish]

And fwiw, I've been one of the biggest doubters of Trayvon and supporters of Zimmerman in this thread. I just think that apology was a sh#### thing to do. If it served a purpose to help Zimmerman, then I think his attorney is a tool. It was unnecessary. This case shouldn't be that difficult.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

I see the "Look at me!" batsignal went out and attracted Otis to combat Tim. It's like Godzilla vs Mothra, but less cool.

And what is your purpose here.. ?

His sole purpose in life is to increase my post count in this thread. I kind of like that his happiness is dependent upon me.

Not true. Tim's taken that over now. My work here is done. I still want justice for Trayvon though. If that means aggravating people the likes of you, John mx, Boneyard Dog, Carolina Hustler etc., so be it. Not the posters I would want to be associated with, but everything is about you, so I'm sure you're fine with it.

Without knowing the real story, how can you judge the conclusion, what will "Justice for Trayvon" be? Because at this point, he might have already gotten the justice he deserved.. You can't know..

Attack someone you don't know in the middle of the night, brake their nose, bash their head, they have a gun, you get what you get..

He didn't deserve to die.

His actions may not have warranted death, but maybe death was a logical conclusion based on his actions.. Give me a serious YES or NO (only, one word, yes or no) If someone you didn't know, attacked you in the middle of the night, broke your nose, was on top of you, bashing your head into the ground, you couldn't get him off, he wouldn't stop, cries for help brought no help..

You have a gun, would you use it?

Better believe I would.By the way, is this a proven fact, that Zimmerman had a broken nose? If so, I don't understand how this "hunter" story works. He went out looking for the kid, stalking him in the night, looking to shoot him with a gun. Then he lets the kid walk up to him and break his nose and THEN shoots him?

The defense claims they can provide proof that the nose was broken. The investigator declined an offer to let him view the evidence.Anti-Zim would answer your question as follows:

"Zimmerman was hunting Trayvon, with gun drawn, Trayvon was terrified and was hiding in the bushes, Zimmerman wouldn't leave so Trayvon grew more anxious as he hid, scared for his life, the only thing Trayvon could think to do was to attack Zimmerman the next time he was close enough and his back was turned.. Because with every moment that passed the odds of Trayvon eluding this mad man dwindled.. He had to act, even though he was out gunned, the odds were better if he fought back.."

But this would all go against the GF's claims that they actually had a brief discussion before the altercation..

 

[Carolina Hustler]

I see the "Look at me!" batsignal went out and attracted Otis to combat Tim. It's like Godzilla vs Mothra, but less cool.

Two guys aren't even in the same league IMO.

Mothra was never a real match for Godzilla..

Exactly.

:mothscreech:

 

[Chaos Commish]

The defense claims they can provide proof that the nose was broken. The investigator declined an offer to let him view the evidence.

he didn't decline the evidence. He said he'd like to see it. At which point O'Mara said he would give it to the state which was more appropriate. O'Mara was great until he let George make his dumb statement. The best thing he did was get the prosecution to admit they had no evidence of who initiated a confrontation and no evidence of who started the fight. It was a beat down, imo.

 

[Otis]

I just think that apology was a sh#### thing to do.

Yeah, an apology??? What a jerk.

 

[Otis]

My favorite part about the apology was the way the prosecutor totally spazzed afterwards.

 

[Chaos Commish]

I just think that apology was a sh#### thing to do.

Yeah, an apology??? What a jerk.

What if someone shot and killed your daughter and then asked to apologize to you privately but you declined. Then what if that person took the stand publicly and not only gave the apology but used the platform to change his self defense story to his advantage? Your daughter is dead Otis. The killer is using his apology to improve his case.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

My favorite part about the apology was the way the prosecutor totally spazzed afterwards.

 

[Otis]

I just think that apology was a sh#### thing to do.

Yeah, an apology??? What a jerk.

What if someone shot and killed your daughter and then asked to apologize to you privately but you declined. Then what if that person took the stand publicly and not only gave the apology but used the platform to change his self defense story to his advantage? Your daughter is dead Otis. The killer is using his apology to improve his case.

1. Still no idea how you think he "changed his defense story."2. The apology improved his case how exactly? You mean with the jury who hasn't been empaneled yet and didn't see it?This thread is weird.

 

[Chaos Commish]

My favorite part about the apology was the way the prosecutor totally spazzed afterwards.

The prosecutor's angry temperament was right out of a low budget tv legal thriller.

 

[Chaos Commish]

I just think that apology was a sh#### thing to do.

Yeah, an apology??? What a jerk.

What if someone shot and killed your daughter and then asked to apologize to you privately but you declined. Then what if that person took the stand publicly and not only gave the apology but used the platform to change his self defense story to his advantage? Your daughter is dead Otis. The killer is using his apology to improve his case.

1. Still no idea how you think he "changed his defense story."2. The apology improved his case how exactly? You mean with the jury who hasn't been empaneled yet and didn't see it?

This thread is weird.

I love it in here.Christo gave a good reason for changing Zimmerman's belief from late teens to a little younger than 28. I'm not repeating it. Time for dinner. Yes, this thread is weird. It's too late for me, GB, save yourself!

 

[Carolina Hustler]

The defense claims they can provide proof that the nose was broken. The investigator declined an offer to let him view the evidence.

he didn't decline the evidence. He said he'd like to see it. At which point O'Mara said he would give it to the state which was more appropriate.

O'Mara was great until he let George make his dumb statement. The best thing he did was get the prosecution to admit they had no evidence of who initiated a confrontation and no evidence of who started the fight. It was a beat down, imo.

Does anyone have a link to the whole thing.. I didn't catch it all, and I need to see the parts that I did see again anyways.. It's obvious I need a refresher..

 

[Chaos Commish]

The defense claims they can provide proof that the nose was broken. The investigator declined an offer to let him view the evidence.

he didn't decline the evidence. He said he'd like to see it. At which point O'Mara said he would give it to the state which was more appropriate.

O'Mara was great until he let George make his dumb statement. The best thing he did was get the prosecution to admit they had no evidence of who initiated a confrontation and no evidence of who started the fight. It was a beat down, imo.

Does anyone have a link to the whole thing.. I didn't catch it all, and I need to see the parts that I did see again anyways.. It's obvious I need a refresher..

I can't even find a complete transcript. Since when do transcripts break for commercial in the middle of the proceedings!

 

[Chaos Commish]

A funny thing in the cnn transcript.

O'Mara asks about the word confronted.

The investigator says it's just a word, he could have used dirty words.

He said thirty, but whoever was transcribing...

 

[Christo]

Just read these comments, didn't find them particularly compelling. This hearing was a huge win for Zimmerman, regardless of whether Chaos Commish thinks it was mean to express his sorrow to the family even though they didn't want to hear it. The family, with their rush to the USPTO to trademark catch phrases with their son's name while the body is still warm, and their full-on media blitz (how many times have they appeared on Anderson Cooper already?), isn't making the most compelling case in the world for my sympathy anyway.

Their son was killed and they trademarked two slogans for a charitable foundation in his name. Take issue with the copyright? That's lame. They also moved to stop the use of their sons image as a thug for gun rights advocates. If your daughter was shot and killed by neighborhood watch would you want her image used by those who thought it was a good shoot? People who do not understand the context of Zimmerman's self serving apology think he did a nice thing and came off well. Good for the defense. He lied to the parents' faces, changed his story, answered only those questions that might serve him and did so dishonestly. He didn't state that he was answering Sybrina's rhetorical questions (which have haunted him) from a month ago. He just crafted a paragraph that addressed them making himself look good. Google Sybrina Fulton's questions for George and you'll see why he chose those three questions. The others are a little rougher, like if you could do it again would you still pull the trigger? There's an angry media with a huge following who understand. You haven't been following closely (kudos). Maybe that's more representative, but I don't care. It was a nasty move from my box which is following this too closely. I'm going golfing now.

ATC said they didn't want a private apology but a public one. They never asked for a public one unless it was again a rhetorical request from the sentencing hearing of a convicted George Zimmerman.

The Martin family is hurting, I understand, but they've been building a mob in the media for the last 2 months.. If they can continue to spout off publicly, then I see nothing wrong with Zimerman doing damage control.. His life is on the line now. Trasyvon is gone and can't be brought back.. If they're doing everything they can to damage him at this point, it's his responsibility to himself and his family to do damage control.

Damage control is standing up in front of the mother and father whose son you killed and lying to their faces in front of the nation? Sorry, that stoked the fires he should be trying to put out. His statement went over well with the likes of Otis (those not following very closely) and those who have been supportive of him. But neither of those groups needed damage control. His statement drew outrage (rightfully so) from those who've been protesting. He didn't control damage, he caused more.

Believe me, he said exactly what he and his attorney rehearsed. It was for the courtroom not the public. Nothing he was going to say short of an admission of guilt was going to make the Martin family or their supporters happy.

You'd like to think so, but what possible reason could he have had for stating that he thought Trayvon was a little younger than him and that he didn't know how old he was... when we all know he very accurately said "late teens" to the dispatcher? Are you suggesting the lie/error was planned?

He didn't know how old Martin was on that night. He might have thought he was a teen when he made the call. That belief might have changed when he came face to face with Martin.You have no clue if he lied on the stand Friday.

You didn't answer the question I'm more interested in getting your opinion on. You said he said exactly what he rehearsed. Are you suggesting they planned the controversial comments about the son's age? If so why?

You called it a lie/error. We don't know if it was a lie/error. For all we know, after Zimmerman was taken back to the station he told the cops he originally thought Martin was a teen but when he came face to face with him he was a older than he had originally thought. A lot has been made in the press about Martin being a teen, a child even. The Martin family and the press did a good job of molding the 250 pound armed adult versus the Skittle carrying child story. They very well be setting up their their theory for the pre-trial immunity hearing and/or trial that Zimmerman thought Martin was older than he was. Which could help them with their defense-especially the reasonability of the use of force.

I rephrased lie/error to controversial comments just for you and I still don't think I got an answer. Do you think George said exactly what his attorney had approved/rehearsed?

I answered your question about 5 posts ago. I bolded it for you.

 

[BoneYardDog]

I just think that apology was a sh#### thing to do.

Yeah, an apology??? What a jerk.

What if someone shot and killed your daughter and then asked to apologize to you privately but you declined. Then what if that person took the stand publicly and not only gave the apology but used the platform to change his self defense story to his advantage? Your daughter is dead Otis. The killer is using his apology to improve his case.

I saw his apology as sincere and an answer to 3 questions that had been asked of him...In no way do I see that apology as a strategy to improve his case during and after the hearing...Z came off way more sympathetic than the prosecutor or the Martins lawyer or spokesperson...

 

[oneohh]

Couple different ways to spin the whole parents quitting their jobs thing, from two random internet write-ups:

Not to mention Trayvon's parents. They both immediately quit their jobs (naturally), set up a website, and his Mom trademarked his name. Now that's the first thing I would think about if my son was killed. NOT.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/23/trayvon-martin-fundraiser_n_1376000.html

Trayvon's parents, Sybrina Fulton and Tracy Martin, have left their jobs since their son died, in order to completely commit to fighting for justice. But their expenses are mounting, making it difficult to fund their advocacy efforts, Michael Hall, marketing director and managing partner for MediumFour, told the Huffington Post.

I understand the point that someone had to push this to the national media so that it would be prosecuted. But at this point, do we need his parents "fighting for justice"? Pretty sure that's what the DA is for, and the DA will do a better job of it.What's also sort of strange to me is all these fundraisers by their parents:

At press time, Justice For Trayvon Martin had raised $6,065, but Hall -- whose company has donated its marketing efforts to developing the campaign -- said that the family will likely burn through that much money in a month. The civil lawsuit could drag on for more than a year. The family will also need more money to establish -- and grow -- a nonprofit to raise awareness for hate crimes and to work to change the Stand Your Ground law.

First off, we're not even sure this was a "hate crime" just yet -- let alone a "crime" of any kind. Secondly, why are these people raising money to live off? Couldn't they have just kept their jobs and continued fighting for their causes on the side (like the rest of us do)?All just sort of stinks to me. I guess not the way I would imagine reacting if I ever lost a child.

The leaders and representatives of black America are using the dead kid, the parents are just following the example being set for them.

 

[Christo]

And fwiw, I've been one of the biggest doubters of Trayvon and supporters of Zimmerman in this thread. I just think that apology was a sh#### thing to do. If it served a purpose to help Zimmerman, then I think his attorney is a tool. It was unnecessary. This case shouldn't be that difficult.

The lawyer was never going to let Zimmerman say he was sorry for what he did. Never. Everyone would take it as him admitting he did something wrong. Anyone who thought he would apologize for his actions is a fool. I'm sure Zimmerman wanted to say something. So this is how they decided to phrase it. There is nothing wrong with Zimmerman saying he is sorry for their loss. Anyone who is mad about that is just looking for a reason to stay mad.

 

[identikit]

And fwiw, I've been one of the biggest doubters of Trayvon and supporters of Zimmerman in this thread. I just think that apology was a sh#### thing to do. If it served a purpose to help Zimmerman, then I think his attorney is a tool. It was unnecessary. This case shouldn't be that difficult.

The lawyer was never going to let Zimmerman say he was sorry for what he did. Never. Everyone would take it as him admitting he did something wrong. Anyone who thought he would apologize for his actions is a fool. I'm sure Zimmerman wanted to say something. So this is how they decided to phrase it. There is nothing wrong with Zimmerman saying he is sorry for their loss. Anyone who is mad about that is just looking for a reason to stay mad.

Exactly.

 

[TexanFan02]

A funny thing in the cnn transcript.

O'Mara asks about the word confronted.

The investigator says it's just a word, he could have used dirty words.

He said thirty, but whoever was transcribing...

Ah, I wondered about that. 30 does make a lot more sense.

 

[Chaos Commish]

And fwiw, I've been one of the biggest doubters of Trayvon and supporters of Zimmerman in this thread. I just think that apology was a sh#### thing to do. If it served a purpose to help Zimmerman, then I think his attorney is a tool. It was unnecessary. This case shouldn't be that difficult.

The lawyer was never going to let Zimmerman say he was sorry for what he did. Never. Everyone would take it as him admitting he did something wrong. Anyone who thought he would apologize for his actions is a fool. I'm sure Zimmerman wanted to say something. So this is how they decided to phrase it. There is nothing wrong with Zimmerman saying he is sorry for their loss. Anyone who is mad about that is just looking for a reason to stay mad.

Of course. And that isn't the issue here or elsewhere. The issue is "late teens" turned into unknown but a little younger than 28 during the so called apology. No one expected the apology to be anything more than sorrow for a terrible loss to his parents. But many were surprised the platform was used to contradict the phone call.

 

[Christo]

And fwiw, I've been one of the biggest doubters of Trayvon and supporters of Zimmerman in this thread. I just think that apology was a sh#### thing to do. If it served a purpose to help Zimmerman, then I think his attorney is a tool. It was unnecessary. This case shouldn't be that difficult.

The lawyer was never going to let Zimmerman say he was sorry for what he did. Never. Everyone would take it as him admitting he did something wrong. Anyone who thought he would apologize for his actions is a fool. I'm sure Zimmerman wanted to say something. So this is how they decided to phrase it. There is nothing wrong with Zimmerman saying he is sorry for their loss. Anyone who is mad about that is just looking for a reason to stay mad.

Of course. And that isn't the issue here or elsewhere. The issue is "late teens" turned into unknown but a little younger than 28 during the so called apology. No one expected the apology to be anything more than sorrow for a terrible loss to his parents. But many were surprised the platform was used to contradict the phone call.

If it's night and you see someone at a distance you may form a belief about that person's age. But once you see that person up close and he turns out to be several inches taller than you and he breaks your nose, knocks you to the ground, jumps on top of you and bashes the back of your head into the ground your belief might change. Anyone who can't see that is looking for something to stay mad about.And if a court of law isn't the place to clarify what your belief about the victim's age, where is?

 

[TexanFan02]

And fwiw, I've been one of the biggest doubters of Trayvon and supporters of Zimmerman in this thread. I just think that apology was a sh#### thing to do. If it served a purpose to help Zimmerman, then I think his attorney is a tool. It was unnecessary. This case shouldn't be that difficult.

The lawyer was never going to let Zimmerman say he was sorry for what he did. Never. Everyone would take it as him admitting he did something wrong. Anyone who thought he would apologize for his actions is a fool. I'm sure Zimmerman wanted to say something. So this is how they decided to phrase it. There is nothing wrong with Zimmerman saying he is sorry for their loss. Anyone who is mad about that is just looking for a reason to stay mad.

Of course. And that isn't the issue here or elsewhere. The issue is "late teens" turned into unknown but a little younger than 28 during the so called apology. No one expected the apology to be anything more than sorrow for a terrible loss to his parents. But many were surprised the platform was used to contradict the phone call.

If it's night and you see someone at a distance you may form a belief about that person's age. But once you see that person up close and he turns out to be several inches taller than you and he breaks your nose, knocks you to the ground, jumps on top of you and bashes the back of your head into the ground your belief might change. Anyone who can't see that is looking for something to stay mad about.And if a court of law isn't the place to clarify what your belief about the victim's age, where is?

Link?