Florida boy killed by Neighborhood Watch (3 Viewers)

[greenroom]

not familiar with the anonymity thing

don't we already know who the witnesses are basically? Are there new witnesses they say need protecting?

The witness who saw Treyvon on top of Zimmerman has never been identified by anything other than 'John' for anonymity sake..

I'd bet everyone in the neighborhood knows who he is, but not nationally..

I'd want my identity hidden from the public as well. The guy is most certainly going to be harassed if not worse.. Zimmerman received death threats. If some idiot is willing to kill someone he doesn't even know, over details he doesn't know, why not kill the guy who set him free as well?

Well then you end up in the situation that Mr. Zimmerman is in.

I really doubt that someone would go after this "witness" over what he saw, but then again I would not of thought that walking home with skittles to make PCP would get me killed either.

 

[Clifford]

you can make PCP from Skittles? What the hell am I working for?

 

[pantherclub]

not familiar with the anonymity thing

don't we already know who the witnesses are basically? Are there new witnesses they say need protecting?

The witness who saw Treyvon on top of Zimmerman has never been identified by anything other than 'John' for anonymity sake..

I'd bet everyone in the neighborhood knows who he is, but not nationally..

I'd want my identity hidden from the public as well. The guy is most certainly going to be harassed if not worse.. Zimmerman received death threats. If some idiot is willing to kill someone he doesn't even know, over details he doesn't know, why not kill the guy who set him free as well?

Well then you end up in the situation that Mr. Zimmerman is in.

I really doubt that someone would go after this "witness" over what he saw, but then again I would not of thought that walking home with skittles to make PCP would get me killed either.

lol

btw thats 1772 for Hustler

 

[tdoss]

I'm real close to throwing an ip-ban bet someone's way...

I've only thrown it a couple of times but someone is making this board so unbearable that I'm willing to take the shot.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

not familiar with the anonymity thing

don't we already know who the witnesses are basically? Are there new witnesses they say need protecting?

The witness who saw Treyvon on top of Zimmerman has never been identified by anything other than 'John' for anonymity sake..

I'd bet everyone in the neighborhood knows who he is, but not nationally..

I'd want my identity hidden from the public as well. The guy is most certainly going to be harassed if not worse.. Zimmerman received death threats. If some idiot is willing to kill someone he doesn't even know, over details he doesn't know, why not kill the guy who set him free as well?

These witnesses that want anonymity will probably feel differently when someone approaches them about a book deal

 

[SacramentoBob]

Lie detector tests are equivalent to voodoo. They only work if the people believe they work. If the person knows it's a sham, it's worthless.

Never the less, if he had failed it, you kill-da-Zimmy's would be throwing a parade..

My stance on lie detectors is immutable.There is no science behind a lie detector test. It's an investigation technique that is only effective if the suspect believes they really detect lies. But you have to a) believe and b) actually be guilty of something. In that scenario, someone will confess since "they know anyway". No different than any of the other lies detectives throw at you to get you to confess, like "your partner already sold you out, you better start talking fast". It's a trick.

Bump.

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

Lie detector tests are equivalent to voodoo. They only work if the people believe they work. If the person knows it's a sham, it's worthless.

Never the less, if he had failed it, you kill-da-Zimmy's would be throwing a parade..

My stance on lie detectors is immutable.There is no science behind a lie detector test. It's an investigation technique that is only effective if the suspect believes they really detect lies. But you have to a) believe and b) actually be guilty of something. In that scenario, someone will confess since "they know anyway". No different than any of the other lies detectives throw at you to get you to confess, like "your partner already sold you out, you better start talking fast". It's a trick.

Bump.

So according to you all of those police departments and federal agencies that bought into it are a bunch of suckers using snake oil against criminals. Brilliant! Why don't they just use bandaids and speaker cables hooked up to a cardboard box!

 

[pittstownkiller]

Lie detector tests are equivalent to voodoo. They only work if the people believe they work. If the person knows it's a sham, it's worthless.

Never the less, if he had failed it, you kill-da-Zimmy's would be throwing a parade..

My stance on lie detectors is immutable.There is no science behind a lie detector test. It's an investigation technique that is only effective if the suspect believes they really detect lies. But you have to a) believe and b) actually be guilty of something. In that scenario, someone will confess since "they know anyway". No different than any of the other lies detectives throw at you to get you to confess, like "your partner already sold you out, you better start talking fast". It's a trick.

The Government uses them.

 

[SacramentoBob]

Lie detector tests are equivalent to voodoo. They only work if the people believe they work. If the person knows it's a sham, it's worthless.

Never the less, if he had failed it, you kill-da-Zimmy's would be throwing a parade..

My stance on lie detectors is immutable.There is no science behind a lie detector test. It's an investigation technique that is only effective if the suspect believes they really detect lies. But you have to a) believe and b) actually be guilty of something. In that scenario, someone will confess since "they know anyway". No different than any of the other lies detectives throw at you to get you to confess, like "your partner already sold you out, you better start talking fast". It's a trick.

The Government uses them.

I didn't say they weren't in use. I said they were fake science. They are effective in getting people to confess if the suspect believes in them.

Lie detector tests are equivalent to voodoo. They only work if the people believe they work. If the person knows it's a sham, it's worthless.

Never the less, if he had failed it, you kill-da-Zimmy's would be throwing a parade..

My stance on lie detectors is immutable.There is no science behind a lie detector test. It's an investigation technique that is only effective if the suspect believes they really detect lies. But you have to a) believe and b) actually be guilty of something. In that scenario, someone will confess since "they know anyway". No different than any of the other lies detectives throw at you to get you to confess, like "your partner already sold you out, you better start talking fast". It's a trick.

Bump.

So according to you all of those police departments and federal agencies that bought into it are a bunch of suckers using snake oil against criminals. Brilliant! Why don't they just use bandaids and speaker cables hooked up to a cardboard box!

Police are allowed to lie to suspects. Not sure why this is news to you.

 

[Christo]

Lie detector tests are equivalent to voodoo. They only work if the people believe they work. If the person knows it's a sham, it's worthless.

Never the less, if he had failed it, you kill-da-Zimmy's would be throwing a parade..

My stance on lie detectors is immutable.There is no science behind a lie detector test. It's an investigation technique that is only effective if the suspect believes they really detect lies. But you have to a) believe and b) actually be guilty of something. In that scenario, someone will confess since "they know anyway". No different than any of the other lies detectives throw at you to get you to confess, like "your partner already sold you out, you better start talking fast". It's a trick.

The Government uses them.

There's a reason the results aren't admissible at trial. In Illinois polygraphs have been found to be so unreliable that the results are excluded even if all parties agree they want the results admitted.

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

Certainly not perfect, but better than his cardboard box/snake oil theory:

Do the tests work? Depends how you define work. Probably the most comprehensive look at polygraph accuracy is a 2003 report from the National Academy of Sciences. After examining 57 polygraph studies the NAS concluded: "In populations of examinees such as those represented in the polygraph research literature, untrained in countermeasures, specific-incident polygraph tests can discriminate lying from truth telling at rates well above chance, though well below perfection." Their analysis of the 30 most recent polygraph data sets showed an overall accuracy of 85 percent, and an analysis of seven field studies involving specific incidents showed a median accuracy of 89 percent.

 

[pittstownkiller]

Lie detector tests are equivalent to voodoo. They only work if the people believe they work. If the person knows it's a sham, it's worthless.

Never the less, if he had failed it, you kill-da-Zimmy's would be throwing a parade..

My stance on lie detectors is immutable.There is no science behind a lie detector test. It's an investigation technique that is only effective if the suspect believes they really detect lies. But you have to a) believe and b) actually be guilty of something. In that scenario, someone will confess since "they know anyway". No different than any of the other lies detectives throw at you to get you to confess, like "your partner already sold you out, you better start talking fast". It's a trick.

The Government uses them.

There's a reason the results aren't admissible at trial. In Illinois polygraphs have been found to be so unreliable that the results are excluded even if all parties agree they want the results admitted.

The CIA and the FBI uses them to screen people for getting access to classified intelligence; your characterization is a little disingenuous.

 

[timschochet]

I agree with JoJo on this one. The tests aren't admissible in court, but there's nothing wrong with giving them some sort of credence on a discussion board.

 

[Christo]

Lie detector tests are equivalent to voodoo. They only work if the people believe they work. If the person knows it's a sham, it's worthless.

Never the less, if he had failed it, you kill-da-Zimmy's would be throwing a parade..

My stance on lie detectors is immutable.There is no science behind a lie detector test. It's an investigation technique that is only effective if the suspect believes they really detect lies. But you have to a) believe and b) actually be guilty of something. In that scenario, someone will confess since "they know anyway". No different than any of the other lies detectives throw at you to get you to confess, like "your partner already sold you out, you better start talking fast". It's a trick.

The Government uses them.

There's a reason the results aren't admissible at trial. In Illinois polygraphs have been found to be so unreliable that the results are excluded even if all parties agree they want the results admitted.

The CIA and the FBI uses them to screen people for getting access to classified intelligence; your characterization is a little disingenuous.

Not at all. We're talking about different standards. The CIA and FBI use them for investigative purposes. Courts use them for evidentiary purposes.

 

[Gawain]

Lie detector tests are equivalent to voodoo. They only work if the people believe they work. If the person knows it's a sham, it's worthless.

Never the less, if he had failed it, you kill-da-Zimmy's would be throwing a parade..

My stance on lie detectors is immutable.There is no science behind a lie detector test. It's an investigation technique that is only effective if the suspect believes they really detect lies. But you have to a) believe and b) actually be guilty of something. In that scenario, someone will confess since "they know anyway". No different than any of the other lies detectives throw at you to get you to confess, like "your partner already sold you out, you better start talking fast". It's a trick.

The Government uses th

There's a reason the results aren't admissible at trial. In Illinois polygraphs have been found to be so unreliable that the results are excluded even if all parties agree they want the results admitted.

The CIA and the FBI uses them to screen people for getting access to classified intelligence; your characterization is a little disingenuous.

Not at all. We're talking about different standards. The CIA and FBI use them for investigative purposes. Courts use them for evidentiary purposes.

Maury Povich uses them to prop up Connie Chung's saggy career and boobs.

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

Here's a good summary I found covering the past two days of trial, trial continues today to get a ruling on the audio recordings:

Hearings over the last two days on allowing audio experts to testify in court. The defense expert a Dr. working for the FBI with impressive credentials in the field of forensic voice analysis, boring as **** and who laid a very conservative foundation as to the standards that must be used in voice comparison. Basically the screams through the 911 tapes were to short and to poor a quality to make a determination. Prosecution witnesses less than impressive. I got to hear the Owens cross and West (the defense attorney) raked him over the coals pretty well latching on to some read meat about how Owens had to loop 7-seconds of audio through the software twice to get enough length for the software to work. A non-standard way to achieve results not supported or validated by the scientific community through research and peer review..The hearing today was called a Frye Hearing and was specifically about the admissibility of the audio analysis. To be admissible the methodology used must be standard and widely accepted by the scientific and forensic community. For the 911 tapes once you cut out the gaps, dispatcher talking, and caller talking you actually only have a few seconds of actual yelling before the gunshot. The amount of the recording is very short, does not have enough different words, and is of poor quality because it was in the background and recorded through a phone that was inside a house for an outside noise.Both prosecution witnesses that I was able to listen to (Owens & Riech) used scientific standard methodologies (Aural (listening), spectrograph (electronic examination of the frequencies involved) and biometric (computerize voice analysis) - the types of processes they used were scientifically acceptable under current standards. However the defense is challenging the methodology they used to employ those processes as sub-standard (too short a sample, poor recording quality, frequency multiplying a standard spoken sample to raise it to the pitch of a yelling sample, etc.)Don't know how the Judge will rule yet, I think there is more testimony scheduled for today, but right now my gut tells me the defense did better over the last two days in terms of keeping audio analysis out during trial. They don't want these people testifying because in general they are excluding Zimmerman as the source of the yelling. The biggest one I think they fear getting in because it would do the most damage in front of the jury is Riech who (IIRC) says he determined that Martin said "I'm begging you..." and "Stop".

 

[timschochet]

The biggest one I think they fear getting in because it would do the most damage in front of the jury is Riech who (IIRC) says he determined that Martin said "I'm begging you..." and "Stop".

Sounds like a guy on PCP intent on murder, doesn't it?

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

Ultimately I think that this case will be decided with one basic question-

If Zimmerman did what the prosecution alleges then was there an actual crime committed?

I probably lean towards "no" at this point, with of course the entire trial ahead of us. That being said I have a very really hard time not forming prejudices against Zimmerman based exclusively on those working so hard to defend him. I'm having a hard time not finding him guilty simply by association with "Team Zimmerman". 'grats guys!

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

The biggest one I think they fear getting in because it would do the most damage in front of the jury is Riech who (IIRC) says he determined that Martin said "I'm begging you..." and "Stop".

Sounds like a guy on PCP intent on murder, doesn't it?

Sounds like a guy getting an expensive paycheck to pretend to be able to hear something which no other expert can.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

The biggest one I think they fear getting in because it would do the most damage in front of the jury is Riech who (IIRC) says he determined that Martin said "I'm begging you..." and "Stop".

Sounds like a guy on PCP intent on murder, doesn't it?

Sounds like a guy getting an expensive paycheck to pretend to be able to hear something which no other expert can.

id like to hear the audio now that its been cleaned up and judge for myself

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

more summary...

The defense brought forth a top FBI voice expert that said there was no way to tell who was screaming. He said he found anyone who claimed they could, "disturbing".The state brought forth two clowns that contradicted each other. And when I use the word clowns, I'm being kind. One had a HS diploma and the other only a BS. In the end one admitted his evidence wasn't very good, and could only say it was PROBABLE that the voice screaming wasn't Zimmerman. The other one said his opinion that it wasn't Zimmerman screaming was VERY TENTATIVE.I expect that the judge will allow the state to use one of those guys, (she'll eliminate one of them b/c they contradict each other.) It will be a mistake to allow either of them to testify for the state b/c they will make the state look horrible, but it is all they have and she does not want to dismiss the case b/c of lack of evidence.The defense has another excellent expert on the stand right now. Another PHD. A forensic speech/audio expert from the UK. He's testified that in his 30 yr career he's never come across a case of someone comparing screaming to a normal voice. Said it was impossible. Called one of the State's experts crazy.

 

[Lutherman2112]

more summary...

The defense brought forth a top FBI voice expert that said there was no way to tell who was screaming. He said he found anyone who claimed they could, "disturbing".

The state brought forth two clowns that contradicted each other. And when I use the word clowns, I'm being kind. One had a HS diploma and the other only a BS. In the end one admitted his evidence wasn't very good, and could only say it was PROBABLE that the voice screaming wasn't Zimmerman. The other one said his opinion that it wasn't Zimmerman screaming was VERY TENTATIVE.

I expect that the judge will allow the state to use one of those guys, (she'll eliminate one of them b/c they contradict each other.) It will be a mistake to allow either of them to testify for the state b/c they will make the state look horrible, but it is all they have and she does not want to dismiss the case b/c of lack of evidence.

The defense has another excellent expert on the stand right now. Another PHD. A forensic speech/audio expert from the UK. He's testified that in his 30 yr career he's never come across a case of someone comparing screaming to a normal voice. Said it was impossible. Called one of the State's experts crazy.

More conservative tree house or hannity forums?

 

[greenroom]

The biggest one I think they fear getting in because it would do the most damage in front of the jury is Riech who (IIRC) says he determined that Martin said "I'm begging you..." and "Stop".

Sounds like a guy on PCP intent on murder, doesn't it?

Sounds like a guy getting an expensive paycheck to pretend to be able to hear something which no other expert can.

Not that you are the most objective person in this thread!!

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

The biggest one I think they fear getting in because it would do the most damage in front of the jury is Riech who (IIRC) says he determined that Martin said "I'm begging you..." and "Stop".

Sounds like a guy on PCP intent on murder, doesn't it?

Sounds like a guy getting an expensive paycheck to pretend to be able to hear something which no other expert can.

Not that you are the most objective person in this thread!!

It's a good thing you used 2 exclamation points to make your point, I almost thought you were unbiased.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

The biggest one I think they fear getting in because it would do the most damage in front of the jury is Riech who (IIRC) says he determined that Martin said "I'm begging you..." and "Stop".

Sounds like a guy on PCP intent on murder, doesn't it?

Sounds like a guy getting an expensive paycheck to pretend to be able to hear something which no other expert can.

id like to hear the audio now that its been cleaned up and judge for myself

agreed

 

[greenroom]

The biggest one I think they fear getting in because it would do the most damage in front of the jury is Riech who (IIRC) says he determined that Martin said "I'm begging you..." and "Stop".

Sounds like a guy on PCP intent on murder, doesn't it?

Sounds like a guy getting an expensive paycheck to pretend to be able to hear something which no other expert can.

Not that you are the most objective person in this thread!!

It's a good thing you used 2 exclamation points to make your point, I almost thought you were unbiased.

Actually I am not biased unlike you. I think Zimmerman walks without any issues. I think what he did was wrong and he should have to face punishment, but he will have to live with the fact he killed a kid who was just walking home with skittles so he can make his next batch of PCP. Which even you would have to agree with.

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

The biggest one I think they fear getting in because it would do the most damage in front of the jury is Riech who (IIRC) says he determined that Martin said "I'm begging you..." and "Stop".

Sounds like a guy on PCP intent on murder, doesn't it?

Sounds like a guy getting an expensive paycheck to pretend to be able to hear something which no other expert can.

Not that you are the most objective person in this thread!!

It's a good thing you used 2 exclamation points to make your point, I almost thought you were unbiased.

Actually I am not biased unlike you. I think Zimmerman walks without any issues. I think what he did was wrong and he should have to face punishment, but he will have to live with the fact he killed a kid who was just walking home with skittles so he can make his next batch of PCP. Which even you would have to agree with.

Not biased, roger.

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

more summary...

The defense brought forth a top FBI voice expert that said there was no way to tell who was screaming. He said he found anyone who claimed they could, "disturbing".

The state brought forth two clowns that contradicted each other. And when I use the word clowns, I'm being kind. One had a HS diploma and the other only a BS. In the end one admitted his evidence wasn't very good, and could only say it was PROBABLE that the voice screaming wasn't Zimmerman. The other one said his opinion that it wasn't Zimmerman screaming was VERY TENTATIVE.

I expect that the judge will allow the state to use one of those guys, (she'll eliminate one of them b/c they contradict each other.) It will be a mistake to allow either of them to testify for the state b/c they will make the state look horrible, but it is all they have and she does not want to dismiss the case b/c of lack of evidence.

The defense has another excellent expert on the stand right now. Another PHD. A forensic speech/audio expert from the UK. He's testified that in his 30 yr career he's never come across a case of someone comparing screaming to a normal voice. Said it was impossible. Called one of the State's experts crazy.

More conservative tree house or hannity forums?

They have crazier kill-da-zimmy nutjobs over there you'd fit right in.

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

A third day of testimony ended without a decision on whether jurors in the George Zimmerman second-degree-murder case will hear testimony about who was heard screaming in the background of a 911 call before Trayvon Martin was shot.

Circuit Judge Debra Nelson has been hearing testimony on the issue since Thursday. Today, she heard from a pair of defense experts. A third who was supposed to testify was unavailable, Nelson said, so the judge delayed the conclusion of the hearing.

Zimmerman will be back in court Monday morning for jury selection in his trial. Nelson indicated the 911-audio hearing will continue sometime next week. The first witness to testify this morning was John Peter French, a voice-identification expert based in the United Kingdom.

French testified that the voice of a screaming person is "completely different" than their normal speaking voice. He said he's "never come across a case" in his 30 year career "where anybody's attempted to compare screaming... with normal voice."

French added that the 911 audio in the Zimmerman case "isn't even remotely" appropriate for voice-comparison analysis. He said if a state agency had brought it to his lab, it wouldn't have even gotten "to first base" before he rejected it.

"There can't be any meaningful findings" with these screams, French said.

Another defense expert, California-based former Texas Instruments speech scientist George Doddington, was called to testify next. He expressed strong skepticism of voice-identification.

"Speech is not like fingerprints," said Doddington, who said he has also done work for the National Security Agency and National Institute of Standards and Technology. "Speech is not like iris scans. Speech is not like DNA."

Yesterday, the judge heard lengthy testimony from two voice identification analysts the state hopes to call as experts in Zimmerman's trial, which starts Monday.

That included the most controversial state expert: Alan R. Reich, who says it was likely Trayvon screaming in the background of the call, and claims to be able to decipher what the teen and Zimmerman were saying.

Reich reiterated that "the words that were at a scream level were almost all" Trayvon, but also said his results shouldn't be treated as conclusive, due to the low quality of the audio.

In a report he prepared on the case, Reich said that he could hear Trayvon cry out "I'm begging you" in the background of the call, and shout "stop" just before the fatal shot was fired.

Before Reich, Nelson heard from Tom Owen, a New Jersey based voice expert who analyzed the 911 audio for the Orlando Sentinel last year, ruling out Zimmerman as the voice in the call. Owen cautioned that his findings were only "probable," and also admitted on cross examination that he has a financial stake in the software he used to analyze the recording.

French today testified that while Owen's technology might be generally accepted in the scientific community, his methods -- which included looping the scream audio to make it long enough for analysis -- are not.

Doddington testified that the underlying programming behind Owen's software did well in NIST testing, but became less reliable when variables, like hearing through a telephone, were added.

Doddington also said trying to match the screams in this case to anyone is a "fool's mission." Owen's decision to loop the audio, he said, was "ridiculous... It's a violation of common sense." He called the cries Reich claimed to hear in the background of the audio "imaginary."

But on cross-examination, Doddington conceded that conducting forensic voice identification is not something he usually does, "and I haven't done [that] in this case either."

French testified that he found Reich's analysis "disturbing." There's no way to tell from a scream how old the screamer is, he said. Reich's report on the audio said the frequency of the cries suggested they were more likely from the the teenager.

French echoed Reich on one issue: He testified that he doesn't use a set minimum threshold for the number of words or duration of speech needed to do analysis, particularly for excluding someone as a speaker. But French said "critically, it has to be speech, not screaming."

Nelson still has to rule on whether Owen or Reich meet the burden to testify for the state in Zimmerman's trial, which starts with jury selection on Monday. The defense argues they're using unproven methods to reach their conclusions.

An FBI voice examiner testified for the defense on Thursday, saying that he had dissected the 45-second audio sample and found only three seconds in which the screams were not at least partially obscured by other sounds. That's too little for a proper analysis, he said.

Prosecutors say Zimmerman profiled, pursued and killed Trayvon, an unarmed 17-year-old. Zimmerman, a former Neighborhood Watch volunteer, says it was him screaming, after he was attacked by Trayvon. He says he fired in self-defense.

 

[Lutherman2112]

more summary...

The defense brought forth a top FBI voice expert that said there was no way to tell who was screaming. He said he found anyone who claimed they could, "disturbing".The state brought forth two clowns that contradicted each other. And when I use the word clowns, I'm being kind. One had a HS diploma and the other only a BS. In the end one admitted his evidence wasn't very good, and could only say it was PROBABLE that the voice screaming wasn't Zimmerman. The other one said his opinion that it wasn't Zimmerman screaming was VERY TENTATIVE.I expect that the judge will allow the state to use one of those guys, (she'll eliminate one of them b/c they contradict each other.) It will be a mistake to allow either of them to testify for the state b/c they will make the state look horrible, but it is all they have and she does not want to dismiss the case b/c of lack of evidence.The defense has another excellent expert on the stand right now. Another PHD. A forensic speech/audio expert from the UK. He's testified that in his 30 yr career he's never come across a case of someone comparing screaming to a normal voice. Said it was impossible. Called one of the State's experts crazy.

More conservative tree house or hannity forums?

They have crazier kill-da-zimmy nutjobs over there you'd fit right in.

From where did the summary you posted come?

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

I'd say this is pretty comprehensive and unbiased account of the incident:

‘Stand your ground’ case not what it seemed

On Monday, in a Florida courtroom, George Zimmerman goes on trial for the murder of Trayvon Martin.

In the immediate aftermath of Martin’s death in February 2012, the media portrayed Zimmerman as a gun-crazy vigilante who stalked and murdered a harmless black youth. Since then, Mark O’Mara, Zimmerman’s tenacious lawyer, has extracted bits and pieces of evidence from an ethically challenged prosecution that prove Zimmerman shot Martin in self-defence. So, at long last, the media’s false narrative is about to collide with the hard facts in a court of law.

Let’s start with the tape of Zimmerman’s 911 call to police. Unlike the deceptively spliced and edited snippets broadcast on television news, the full, undoctored tape proves that, at the time he was supposedly hunting down his intended victim, Zimmerman was asking 911 to send a police officer to his location to investigate Martin’s suspicious behavior. If Zimmerman was intending murder, why would he first alert the police and invite them to the scene of the crime?

Similarly, Zimmerman can be heard on the full tape telling the 911 operator that Martin was approaching him. This unscripted, real-time declaration contradicts the media gospel that Zimmerman stalked a retreating and inoffensive Martin.

Moreover, various civilian witnesses have given police statements establishing that, when the fatal shot was fired, Zimmerman was on the ground being beaten by Martin. One witness told police he saw a black male in a dark-color hoodie (later identified as Martin) on top of a "white or Hispanic male" in a red sweatshirt (later identified as Zimmerman), who was on the ground. Martin was throwing punches in "mixed martial-arts" style, while Zimmerman was calling for help.

A second witness told police that he saw Zimmerman on the ground, calling for help "over and over" while he was being beaten.

These and other witnesses described Zimmerman’s cries as "a whining sound," "a groaning noise" in which he cried, "Oh, oh, help me," and "crying or moaning in desperation."

The beating lasted until Zimmerman shot Martin.

How long was Zimmerman beaten before he fired his gun? One witness called 911 while the assault took place. The tape of that call runs 38 seconds, during which a voice is heard in the background repeatedly screaming for help. According to the caller, the screaming had prompted her to call 911. How long the screaming lasted before she called is unknown. But, adding that time — however long — to the 38 seconds on the tape establishes that the allegedly trigger-happy, bloodthirsty Zimmerman had been pinned to the ground taking a beating for 38-plus seconds before finally resorting to deadly force. By this measure, Zimmerman acted with great restraint.

Martin’s parents have repeatedly claimed that the person on the tape calling for help was their son. But immediately after the killing, the police played the 911 call for Martin’s father, who said unequivocally that the voice pleading for help was not his son’s.

Another witness reported being in his condo when he heard "someone yelling, almost crying," followed by a single gunshot. When the witness ventured outside, he asked Zimmerman if everything was "OK." Zimmerman replied, "Just call the police."

Are these the words of a murderer who has just executed his victim?

Then, having allegedly murdered someone, did Zimmerman flee? Far from it. He waited for the police. When the first officer arrived, a witness heard Zimmerman say: "I’ve got a gun. Just take my gun from me."

The first responding officer describes the scene as follows:

"Zimmerman stated that he had shot the subject and was still armed. Zimmerman complied with all my commands and was secured in handcuffs. ... I could observe that his back appeared to be wet and was covered in grass, as if he had been laying on his back on the ground. Zimmerman was also bleeding from the nose and back of the head."

By this account, Zimmerman certainly wasn’t acting like a violent predator fresh from the kill. Moreover, the officer’s description of Zimmerman’s clothing and injuries further corroborates that he had been flat on the ground taking a beating.

Other officers reported that Zimmerman appeared to have "a broken and bloody nose and swelling of his face," as well as cuts and abrasions to his face and the back of his head. And, consistent with Zimmerman’s injuries and the witness statements, the autopsy report documents that Martin had a premortem abrasion to his left ring finger.

According to the autopsy report and the prosecution’s forensic analysts, death was caused by a single shot fired from a gun that was either in contact with or no more than one inch away from Martin’s hoodie. This supports witness accounts of Martin straddling Zimmerman in the immediate prelude to the shooting, and undermines widespread claims that Zimmerman shot Martin from a safe distance.

All of this evidence makes clear that Zimmerman should never have been arrested. That he must now stand trial for second-degree murder is a sad reflection of the prosecution’s cowardice in the face of media-spawned hysteria connected to Florida’s "stand your ground" law. Now, as the trial begins, the only real question is whether a fair and impartial jury can be found that will have the courage to defy the lynch-mob frenzy swirling about this case and free an innocent man.

George Parry is a former state and federal prosecutor practicing law in Philadelphia.

I hadn't heard the red part before.

 

[StrikeS2k]

I'd say this is pretty comprehensive and unbiased account of the incident:

‘Stand your ground’ case not what it seemed

On Monday, in a Florida courtroom, George Zimmerman goes on trial for the murder of Trayvon Martin.

In the immediate aftermath of Martin’s death in February 2012, the media portrayed Zimmerman as a gun-crazy vigilante who stalked and murdered a harmless black youth. Since then, Mark O’Mara, Zimmerman’s tenacious lawyer, has extracted bits and pieces of evidence from an ethically challenged prosecution that prove Zimmerman shot Martin in self-defence. So, at long last, the media’s false narrative is about to collide with the hard facts in a court of law.

Let’s start with the tape of Zimmerman’s 911 call to police. Unlike the deceptively spliced and edited snippets broadcast on television news, the full, undoctored tape proves that, at the time he was supposedly hunting down his intended victim, Zimmerman was asking 911 to send a police officer to his location to investigate Martin’s suspicious behavior. If Zimmerman was intending murder, why would he first alert the police and invite them to the scene of the crime?

Similarly, Zimmerman can be heard on the full tape telling the 911 operator that Martin was approaching him. This unscripted, real-time declaration contradicts the media gospel that Zimmerman stalked a retreating and inoffensive Martin.

Moreover, various civilian witnesses have given police statements establishing that, when the fatal shot was fired, Zimmerman was on the ground being beaten by Martin. One witness told police he saw a black male in a dark-color hoodie (later identified as Martin) on top of a "white or Hispanic male" in a red sweatshirt (later identified as Zimmerman), who was on the ground. Martin was throwing punches in "mixed martial-arts" style, while Zimmerman was calling for help.

A second witness told police that he saw Zimmerman on the ground, calling for help "over and over" while he was being beaten.

These and other witnesses described Zimmerman’s cries as "a whining sound," "a groaning noise" in which he cried, "Oh, oh, help me," and "crying or moaning in desperation."

The beating lasted until Zimmerman shot Martin.

How long was Zimmerman beaten before he fired his gun? One witness called 911 while the assault took place. The tape of that call runs 38 seconds, during which a voice is heard in the background repeatedly screaming for help. According to the caller, the screaming had prompted her to call 911. How long the screaming lasted before she called is unknown. But, adding that time — however long — to the 38 seconds on the tape establishes that the allegedly trigger-happy, bloodthirsty Zimmerman had been pinned to the ground taking a beating for 38-plus seconds before finally resorting to deadly force. By this measure, Zimmerman acted with great restraint.

Martin’s parents have repeatedly claimed that the person on the tape calling for help was their son. But immediately after the killing, the police played the 911 call for Martin’s father, who said unequivocally that the voice pleading for help was not his son’s.

Another witness reported being in his condo when he heard "someone yelling, almost crying," followed by a single gunshot. When the witness ventured outside, he asked Zimmerman if everything was "OK." Zimmerman replied, "Just call the police."

Are these the words of a murderer who has just executed his victim?

Then, having allegedly murdered someone, did Zimmerman flee? Far from it. He waited for the police. When the first officer arrived, a witness heard Zimmerman say: "I’ve got a gun. Just take my gun from me."

The first responding officer describes the scene as follows:

"Zimmerman stated that he had shot the subject and was still armed. Zimmerman complied with all my commands and was secured in handcuffs. ... I could observe that his back appeared to be wet and was covered in grass, as if he had been laying on his back on the ground. Zimmerman was also bleeding from the nose and back of the head."

By this account, Zimmerman certainly wasn’t acting like a violent predator fresh from the kill. Moreover, the officer’s description of Zimmerman’s clothing and injuries further corroborates that he had been flat on the ground taking a beating.

Other officers reported that Zimmerman appeared to have "a broken and bloody nose and swelling of his face," as well as cuts and abrasions to his face and the back of his head. And, consistent with Zimmerman’s injuries and the witness statements, the autopsy report documents that Martin had a premortem abrasion to his left ring finger.

According to the autopsy report and the prosecution’s forensic analysts, death was caused by a single shot fired from a gun that was either in contact with or no more than one inch away from Martin’s hoodie. This supports witness accounts of Martin straddling Zimmerman in the immediate prelude to the shooting, and undermines widespread claims that Zimmerman shot Martin from a safe distance.

All of this evidence makes clear that Zimmerman should never have been arrested. That he must now stand trial for second-degree murder is a sad reflection of the prosecution’s cowardice in the face of media-spawned hysteria connected to Florida’s "stand your ground" law. Now, as the trial begins, the only real question is whether a fair and impartial jury can be found that will have the courage to defy the lynch-mob frenzy swirling about this case and free an innocent man.

George Parry is a former state and federal prosecutor practicing law in Philadelphia.

I hadn't heard the red part before.

Just FYI but without a link I ignore your postings of articles. I'd like to be able to judge whether the source is credible but without the source I just assume not.

 

[the moops]

this thread is all sorts of awesome. keep up the craziness guys

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

I'd say this is pretty comprehensive and unbiased account of the incident:

‘Stand your ground’ case not what it seemed

On Monday, in a Florida courtroom, George Zimmerman goes on trial for the murder of Trayvon Martin.

In the immediate aftermath of Martin’s death in February 2012, the media portrayed Zimmerman as a gun-crazy vigilante who stalked and murdered a harmless black youth. Since then, Mark O’Mara, Zimmerman’s tenacious lawyer, has extracted bits and pieces of evidence from an ethically challenged prosecution that prove Zimmerman shot Martin in self-defence. So, at long last, the media’s false narrative is about to collide with the hard facts in a court of law.

Let’s start with the tape of Zimmerman’s 911 call to police. Unlike the deceptively spliced and edited snippets broadcast on television news, the full, undoctored tape proves that, at the time he was supposedly hunting down his intended victim, Zimmerman was asking 911 to send a police officer to his location to investigate Martin’s suspicious behavior. If Zimmerman was intending murder, why would he first alert the police and invite them to the scene of the crime?

Similarly, Zimmerman can be heard on the full tape telling the 911 operator that Martin was approaching him. This unscripted, real-time declaration contradicts the media gospel that Zimmerman stalked a retreating and inoffensive Martin.

Moreover, various civilian witnesses have given police statements establishing that, when the fatal shot was fired, Zimmerman was on the ground being beaten by Martin. One witness told police he saw a black male in a dark-color hoodie (later identified as Martin) on top of a "white or Hispanic male" in a red sweatshirt (later identified as Zimmerman), who was on the ground. Martin was throwing punches in "mixed martial-arts" style, while Zimmerman was calling for help.

A second witness told police that he saw Zimmerman on the ground, calling for help "over and over" while he was being beaten.

These and other witnesses described Zimmerman’s cries as "a whining sound," "a groaning noise" in which he cried, "Oh, oh, help me," and "crying or moaning in desperation."

The beating lasted until Zimmerman shot Martin.

How long was Zimmerman beaten before he fired his gun? One witness called 911 while the assault took place. The tape of that call runs 38 seconds, during which a voice is heard in the background repeatedly screaming for help. According to the caller, the screaming had prompted her to call 911. How long the screaming lasted before she called is unknown. But, adding that time — however long — to the 38 seconds on the tape establishes that the allegedly trigger-happy, bloodthirsty Zimmerman had been pinned to the ground taking a beating for 38-plus seconds before finally resorting to deadly force. By this measure, Zimmerman acted with great restraint.

Martin’s parents have repeatedly claimed that the person on the tape calling for help was their son. But immediately after the killing, the police played the 911 call for Martin’s father, who said unequivocally that the voice pleading for help was not his son’s.

Another witness reported being in his condo when he heard "someone yelling, almost crying," followed by a single gunshot. When the witness ventured outside, he asked Zimmerman if everything was "OK." Zimmerman replied, "Just call the police."

Are these the words of a murderer who has just executed his victim?

Then, having allegedly murdered someone, did Zimmerman flee? Far from it. He waited for the police. When the first officer arrived, a witness heard Zimmerman say: "I’ve got a gun. Just take my gun from me."

The first responding officer describes the scene as follows:

"Zimmerman stated that he had shot the subject and was still armed. Zimmerman complied with all my commands and was secured in handcuffs. ... I could observe that his back appeared to be wet and was covered in grass, as if he had been laying on his back on the ground. Zimmerman was also bleeding from the nose and back of the head."

By this account, Zimmerman certainly wasn’t acting like a violent predator fresh from the kill. Moreover, the officer’s description of Zimmerman’s clothing and injuries further corroborates that he had been flat on the ground taking a beating.

Other officers reported that Zimmerman appeared to have "a broken and bloody nose and swelling of his face," as well as cuts and abrasions to his face and the back of his head. And, consistent with Zimmerman’s injuries and the witness statements, the autopsy report documents that Martin had a premortem abrasion to his left ring finger.

According to the autopsy report and the prosecution’s forensic analysts, death was caused by a single shot fired from a gun that was either in contact with or no more than one inch away from Martin’s hoodie. This supports witness accounts of Martin straddling Zimmerman in the immediate prelude to the shooting, and undermines widespread claims that Zimmerman shot Martin from a safe distance.

All of this evidence makes clear that Zimmerman should never have been arrested. That he must now stand trial for second-degree murder is a sad reflection of the prosecution’s cowardice in the face of media-spawned hysteria connected to Florida’s "stand your ground" law. Now, as the trial begins, the only real question is whether a fair and impartial jury can be found that will have the courage to defy the lynch-mob frenzy swirling about this case and free an innocent man.

George Parry is a former state and federal prosecutor practicing law in Philadelphia.

I hadn't heard the red part before.

Just FYI but without a link I ignore your postings of articles. I'd like to be able to judge whether the source is credible but without the source I just assume not.

Which part are you disputing? Here's a hint: the source is in the last sentence of the quoted post, go ahead and email him: LGParry@dpt-law.com I'll assume you won't.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

I'd say this is pretty comprehensive and unbiased account of the incident:

‘Stand your ground’ case not what it seemed

On Monday, in a Florida courtroom, George Zimmerman goes on trial for the murder of Trayvon Martin.

In the immediate aftermath of Martin’s death in February 2012, the media portrayed Zimmerman as a gun-crazy vigilante who stalked and murdered a harmless black youth. Since then, Mark O’Mara, Zimmerman’s tenacious lawyer, has extracted bits and pieces of evidence from an ethically challenged prosecution that prove Zimmerman shot Martin in self-defence. So, at long last, the media’s false narrative is about to collide with the hard facts in a court of law.

Let’s start with the tape of Zimmerman’s 911 call to police. Unlike the deceptively spliced and edited snippets broadcast on television news, the full, undoctored tape proves that, at the time he was supposedly hunting down his intended victim, Zimmerman was asking 911 to send a police officer to his location to investigate Martin’s suspicious behavior. If Zimmerman was intending murder, why would he first alert the police and invite them to the scene of the crime?

Similarly, Zimmerman can be heard on the full tape telling the 911 operator that Martin was approaching him. This unscripted, real-time declaration contradicts the media gospel that Zimmerman stalked a retreating and inoffensive Martin.

Moreover, various civilian witnesses have given police statements establishing that, when the fatal shot was fired, Zimmerman was on the ground being beaten by Martin. One witness told police he saw a black male in a dark-color hoodie (later identified as Martin) on top of a "white or Hispanic male" in a red sweatshirt (later identified as Zimmerman), who was on the ground. Martin was throwing punches in "mixed martial-arts" style, while Zimmerman was calling for help.

A second witness told police that he saw Zimmerman on the ground, calling for help "over and over" while he was being beaten.

These and other witnesses described Zimmerman’s cries as "a whining sound," "a groaning noise" in which he cried, "Oh, oh, help me," and "crying or moaning in desperation."

The beating lasted until Zimmerman shot Martin.

How long was Zimmerman beaten before he fired his gun? One witness called 911 while the assault took place. The tape of that call runs 38 seconds, during which a voice is heard in the background repeatedly screaming for help. According to the caller, the screaming had prompted her to call 911. How long the screaming lasted before she called is unknown. But, adding that time — however long — to the 38 seconds on the tape establishes that the allegedly trigger-happy, bloodthirsty Zimmerman had been pinned to the ground taking a beating for 38-plus seconds before finally resorting to deadly force. By this measure, Zimmerman acted with great restraint.

Martin’s parents have repeatedly claimed that the person on the tape calling for help was their son. But immediately after the killing, the police played the 911 call for Martin’s father, who said unequivocally that the voice pleading for help was not his son’s.

Another witness reported being in his condo when he heard "someone yelling, almost crying," followed by a single gunshot. When the witness ventured outside, he asked Zimmerman if everything was "OK." Zimmerman replied, "Just call the police."

Are these the words of a murderer who has just executed his victim?

Then, having allegedly murdered someone, did Zimmerman flee? Far from it. He waited for the police. When the first officer arrived, a witness heard Zimmerman say: "I’ve got a gun. Just take my gun from me."

The first responding officer describes the scene as follows:

"Zimmerman stated that he had shot the subject and was still armed. Zimmerman complied with all my commands and was secured in handcuffs. ... I could observe that his back appeared to be wet and was covered in grass, as if he had been laying on his back on the ground. Zimmerman was also bleeding from the nose and back of the head."

By this account, Zimmerman certainly wasn’t acting like a violent predator fresh from the kill. Moreover, the officer’s description of Zimmerman’s clothing and injuries further corroborates that he had been flat on the ground taking a beating.

Other officers reported that Zimmerman appeared to have "a broken and bloody nose and swelling of his face," as well as cuts and abrasions to his face and the back of his head. And, consistent with Zimmerman’s injuries and the witness statements, the autopsy report documents that Martin had a premortem abrasion to his left ring finger.

According to the autopsy report and the prosecution’s forensic analysts, death was caused by a single shot fired from a gun that was either in contact with or no more than one inch away from Martin’s hoodie. This supports witness accounts of Martin straddling Zimmerman in the immediate prelude to the shooting, and undermines widespread claims that Zimmerman shot Martin from a safe distance.

All of this evidence makes clear that Zimmerman should never have been arrested. That he must now stand trial for second-degree murder is a sad reflection of the prosecution’s cowardice in the face of media-spawned hysteria connected to Florida’s "stand your ground" law. Now, as the trial begins, the only real question is whether a fair and impartial jury can be found that will have the courage to defy the lynch-mob frenzy swirling about this case and free an innocent man.

George Parry is a former state and federal prosecutor practicing law in Philadelphia.

I hadn't heard the red part before.

I think the red part has been accepted as common knowledge early in the thread.. It hasn't been brought up in a while.. Later on, the families lawyer contradicted that and said after the audio was cleaned up, the father changed his opinion..

 

[BustedKnuckles]

I'd say this is pretty comprehensive and unbiased account of the incident:

‘Stand your ground’ case not what it seemed

On Monday, in a Florida courtroom, George Zimmerman goes on trial for the murder of Trayvon Martin.

In the immediate aftermath of Martin’s death in February 2012, the media portrayed Zimmerman as a gun-crazy vigilante who stalked and murdered a harmless black youth. Since then, Mark O’Mara, Zimmerman’s tenacious lawyer, has extracted bits and pieces of evidence from an ethically challenged prosecution that prove Zimmerman shot Martin in self-defence. So, at long last, the media’s false narrative is about to collide with the hard facts in a court of law.

Let’s start with the tape of Zimmerman’s 911 call to police. Unlike the deceptively spliced and edited snippets broadcast on television news, the full, undoctored tape proves that, at the time he was supposedly hunting down his intended victim, Zimmerman was asking 911 to send a police officer to his location to investigate Martin’s suspicious behavior. If Zimmerman was intending murder, why would he first alert the police and invite them to the scene of the crime?

Similarly, Zimmerman can be heard on the full tape telling the 911 operator that Martin was approaching him. This unscripted, real-time declaration contradicts the media gospel that Zimmerman stalked a retreating and inoffensive Martin.

Moreover, various civilian witnesses have given police statements establishing that, when the fatal shot was fired, Zimmerman was on the ground being beaten by Martin. One witness told police he saw a black male in a dark-color hoodie (later identified as Martin) on top of a "white or Hispanic male" in a red sweatshirt (later identified as Zimmerman), who was on the ground. Martin was throwing punches in "mixed martial-arts" style, while Zimmerman was calling for help.

A second witness told police that he saw Zimmerman on the ground, calling for help "over and over" while he was being beaten.

These and other witnesses described Zimmerman’s cries as "a whining sound," "a groaning noise" in which he cried, "Oh, oh, help me," and "crying or moaning in desperation."

The beating lasted until Zimmerman shot Martin.

How long was Zimmerman beaten before he fired his gun? One witness called 911 while the assault took place. The tape of that call runs 38 seconds, during which a voice is heard in the background repeatedly screaming for help. According to the caller, the screaming had prompted her to call 911. How long the screaming lasted before she called is unknown. But, adding that time — however long — to the 38 seconds on the tape establishes that the allegedly trigger-happy, bloodthirsty Zimmerman had been pinned to the ground taking a beating for 38-plus seconds before finally resorting to deadly force. By this measure, Zimmerman acted with great restraint.

Martin’s parents have repeatedly claimed that the person on the tape calling for help was their son. But immediately after the killing, the police played the 911 call for Martin’s father, who said unequivocally that the voice pleading for help was not his son’s.

Another witness reported being in his condo when he heard "someone yelling, almost crying," followed by a single gunshot. When the witness ventured outside, he asked Zimmerman if everything was "OK." Zimmerman replied, "Just call the police."

Are these the words of a murderer who has just executed his victim?

Then, having allegedly murdered someone, did Zimmerman flee? Far from it. He waited for the police. When the first officer arrived, a witness heard Zimmerman say: "I’ve got a gun. Just take my gun from me."

The first responding officer describes the scene as follows:

"Zimmerman stated that he had shot the subject and was still armed. Zimmerman complied with all my commands and was secured in handcuffs. ... I could observe that his back appeared to be wet and was covered in grass, as if he had been laying on his back on the ground. Zimmerman was also bleeding from the nose and back of the head."

By this account, Zimmerman certainly wasn’t acting like a violent predator fresh from the kill. Moreover, the officer’s description of Zimmerman’s clothing and injuries further corroborates that he had been flat on the ground taking a beating.

Other officers reported that Zimmerman appeared to have "a broken and bloody nose and swelling of his face," as well as cuts and abrasions to his face and the back of his head. And, consistent with Zimmerman’s injuries and the witness statements, the autopsy report documents that Martin had a premortem abrasion to his left ring finger.

According to the autopsy report and the prosecution’s forensic analysts, death was caused by a single shot fired from a gun that was either in contact with or no more than one inch away from Martin’s hoodie. This supports witness accounts of Martin straddling Zimmerman in the immediate prelude to the shooting, and undermines widespread claims that Zimmerman shot Martin from a safe distance.

All of this evidence makes clear that Zimmerman should never have been arrested. That he must now stand trial for second-degree murder is a sad reflection of the prosecution’s cowardice in the face of media-spawned hysteria connected to Florida’s "stand your ground" law. Now, as the trial begins, the only real question is whether a fair and impartial jury can be found that will have the courage to defy the lynch-mob frenzy swirling about this case and free an innocent man.

George Parry is a former state and federal prosecutor practicing law in Philadelphia.

I hadn't heard the red part before.

Just FYI but without a link I ignore your postings of articles. I'd like to be able to judge whether the source is credible but without the source I just assume not.

Which part are you disputing? Here's a hint: the source is in the last sentence of the quoted post, go ahead and email him: LGParry@dpt-law.com I'll assume you won't.

why cant you just add the link when you post? I could find many articles like this that say the exact opposite of what is here. This guy sounds biased not neutral.

 

[timschochet]

The guys argument is illogical anyhow, because the extra time involved suggests that Zimmerman, far from trigger-happy, murdered Martin deliberately in cold-blood, and not as a panicked act of self defense. Adding seconds favors the prosecution, not the defense.

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

The guys argument is illogical anyhow, because the extra time involved suggests that Zimmerman, far from trigger-happy, murdered Martin deliberately in cold-blood, and not as a panicked act of self defense. Adding seconds favors the prosecution, not the defense.

I know you think you are right that Zimmerman should have pulled out his firearm at the first sign of trouble. You should really seek second opinions on that thought since you are going down the wrong path.

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

I'm not liking this Judge Nelson.

This is a few days old, but didn't see it posted here.

George Zimmerman has won his appeal of Judge Debra Nelson's denial of his request to depose Martin family lawyer Benjamin Crump about the interview of Witness 8, the woman on the phone with Trayvon Martin shortly before the shooting.

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

This can't be right. DeeDee talked on the phone with Martin the day he was shot for close to 6 hours?

Quote

Mr. Martin, on Sunday evening, was working with his cell phone account, trying to figure out Trayvon's password. And he looked on it, and he saw who the last person was that Trayvon Martin talked to while he was alive.

He called me late Sunday night and told me that he had called the young lady, and he told me, and I was just utterly shocked when he told me the time that they talked. They had talked all that day, about 400 minutes, starting that morning to the afternoon.

Martin phone records

 

[greenroom]

The biggest one I think they fear getting in because it would do the most damage in front of the jury is Riech who (IIRC) says he determined that Martin said "I'm begging you..." and "Stop".

Sounds like a guy on PCP intent on murder, doesn't it?

Sounds like a guy getting an expensive paycheck to pretend to be able to hear something which no other expert can.

Not that you are the most objective person in this thread!!

It's a good thing you used 2 exclamation points to make your point, I almost thought you were unbiased.

Actually I am not biased unlike you. I think Zimmerman walks without any issues. I think what he did was wrong and he should have to face punishment, but he will have to live with the fact he killed a kid who was just walking home with skittles so he can make his next batch of PCP. Which even you would have to agree with.

Not biased, roger.

Nice to know you are ok with another person killing someone who was just walking home. Have a good day!!

 

[BustedKnuckles]

The biggest one I think they fear getting in because it would do the most damage in front of the jury is Riech who (IIRC) says he determined that Martin said "I'm begging you..." and "Stop".

Sounds like a guy on PCP intent on murder, doesn't it?

Sounds like a guy getting an expensive paycheck to pretend to be able to hear something which no other expert can.

Not that you are the most objective person in this thread!!

It's a good thing you used 2 exclamation points to make your point, I almost thought you were unbiased.

Actually I am not biased unlike you. I think Zimmerman walks without any issues. I think what he did was wrong and he should have to face punishment, but he will have to live with the fact he killed a kid who was just walking home with skittles so he can make his next batch of PCP. Which even you would have to agree with.

Not biased, roger.

Nice to know you are ok with another person killing someone who was just walking home. Have a good day!!

oh didnt you hear? George was walking home minding his own business when Treyvon spotted him and followed him then jumped George and beat on him until George had no choice but to shoot trey dead.

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

you guys forgot to mention the part where Zimmerman self-inflicted his wounds, called the non-emergency number prior to the murder to make it look like it wasn't murder, paid off the witness that puts Martin on top of Zimmerman punching Zimmerman MMA style for 38 seconds, and also paid off forensics that put the firearm either touching or within 1 inch of Martin's hoodie.

 

[StrikeS2k]

I'd say this is pretty comprehensive and unbiased account of the incident:

‘Stand your ground’ case not what it seemed

On Monday, in a Florida courtroom, George Zimmerman goes on trial for the murder of Trayvon Martin.

In the immediate aftermath of Martin’s death in February 2012, the media portrayed Zimmerman as a gun-crazy vigilante who stalked and murdered a harmless black youth. Since then, Mark O’Mara, Zimmerman’s tenacious lawyer, has extracted bits and pieces of evidence from an ethically challenged prosecution that prove Zimmerman shot Martin in self-defence. So, at long last, the media’s false narrative is about to collide with the hard facts in a court of law.

Let’s start with the tape of Zimmerman’s 911 call to police. Unlike the deceptively spliced and edited snippets broadcast on television news, the full, undoctored tape proves that, at the time he was supposedly hunting down his intended victim, Zimmerman was asking 911 to send a police officer to his location to investigate Martin’s suspicious behavior. If Zimmerman was intending murder, why would he first alert the police and invite them to the scene of the crime?

Similarly, Zimmerman can be heard on the full tape telling the 911 operator that Martin was approaching him. This unscripted, real-time declaration contradicts the media gospel that Zimmerman stalked a retreating and inoffensive Martin.

Moreover, various civilian witnesses have given police statements establishing that, when the fatal shot was fired, Zimmerman was on the ground being beaten by Martin. One witness told police he saw a black male in a dark-color hoodie (later identified as Martin) on top of a "white or Hispanic male" in a red sweatshirt (later identified as Zimmerman), who was on the ground. Martin was throwing punches in "mixed martial-arts" style, while Zimmerman was calling for help.

A second witness told police that he saw Zimmerman on the ground, calling for help "over and over" while he was being beaten.

These and other witnesses described Zimmerman’s cries as "a whining sound," "a groaning noise" in which he cried, "Oh, oh, help me," and "crying or moaning in desperation."

The beating lasted until Zimmerman shot Martin.

How long was Zimmerman beaten before he fired his gun? One witness called 911 while the assault took place. The tape of that call runs 38 seconds, during which a voice is heard in the background repeatedly screaming for help. According to the caller, the screaming had prompted her to call 911. How long the screaming lasted before she called is unknown. But, adding that time — however long — to the 38 seconds on the tape establishes that the allegedly trigger-happy, bloodthirsty Zimmerman had been pinned to the ground taking a beating for 38-plus seconds before finally resorting to deadly force. By this measure, Zimmerman acted with great restraint.

Martin’s parents have repeatedly claimed that the person on the tape calling for help was their son. But immediately after the killing, the police played the 911 call for Martin’s father, who said unequivocally that the voice pleading for help was not his son’s.

Another witness reported being in his condo when he heard "someone yelling, almost crying," followed by a single gunshot. When the witness ventured outside, he asked Zimmerman if everything was "OK." Zimmerman replied, "Just call the police."

Are these the words of a murderer who has just executed his victim?

Then, having allegedly murdered someone, did Zimmerman flee? Far from it. He waited for the police. When the first officer arrived, a witness heard Zimmerman say: "I’ve got a gun. Just take my gun from me."

The first responding officer describes the scene as follows:

"Zimmerman stated that he had shot the subject and was still armed. Zimmerman complied with all my commands and was secured in handcuffs. ... I could observe that his back appeared to be wet and was covered in grass, as if he had been laying on his back on the ground. Zimmerman was also bleeding from the nose and back of the head."

By this account, Zimmerman certainly wasn’t acting like a violent predator fresh from the kill. Moreover, the officer’s description of Zimmerman’s clothing and injuries further corroborates that he had been flat on the ground taking a beating.

Other officers reported that Zimmerman appeared to have "a broken and bloody nose and swelling of his face," as well as cuts and abrasions to his face and the back of his head. And, consistent with Zimmerman’s injuries and the witness statements, the autopsy report documents that Martin had a premortem abrasion to his left ring finger.

According to the autopsy report and the prosecution’s forensic analysts, death was caused by a single shot fired from a gun that was either in contact with or no more than one inch away from Martin’s hoodie. This supports witness accounts of Martin straddling Zimmerman in the immediate prelude to the shooting, and undermines widespread claims that Zimmerman shot Martin from a safe distance.

All of this evidence makes clear that Zimmerman should never have been arrested. That he must now stand trial for second-degree murder is a sad reflection of the prosecution’s cowardice in the face of media-spawned hysteria connected to Florida’s "stand your ground" law. Now, as the trial begins, the only real question is whether a fair and impartial jury can be found that will have the courage to defy the lynch-mob frenzy swirling about this case and free an innocent man.

George Parry is a former state and federal prosecutor practicing law in Philadelphia.

I hadn't heard the red part before.

Just FYI but without a link I ignore your postings of articles. I'd like to be able to judge whether the source is credible but without the source I just assume not.

Which part are you disputing? Here's a hint: the source is in the last sentence of the quoted post, go ahead and email him: LGParry@dpt-law.com I'll assume you won't.

Apparently you missed the part where I said I don't read your articles unless you put in a link.

 

[Lutherman2112]

This can't be right. DeeDee talked on the phone with Martin the day he was shot for close to 6 hours?

Quote

Mr. Martin, on Sunday evening, was working with his cell phone account, trying to figure out Trayvon's password. And he looked on it, and he saw who the last person was that Trayvon Martin talked to while he was alive.

He called me late Sunday night and told me that he had called the young lady, and he told me, and I was just utterly shocked when he told me the time that they talked. They had talked all that day, about 400 minutes, starting that morning to the afternoon.

Martin phone records

Teenagers on their phones with each other for hours? ::jawdrops::

Nice work, Scoop.

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

This can't be right. DeeDee talked on the phone with Martin the day he was shot for close to 6 hours?

QuoteMr. Martin, on Sunday evening, was working with his cell phone account, trying to figure out Trayvon's password. And he looked on it, and he saw who the last person was that Trayvon Martin talked to while he was alive.He called me late Sunday night and told me that he had called the young lady, and he told me, and I was just utterly shocked when he told me the time that they talked. They had talked all that day, about 400 minutes, starting that morning to the afternoon.

Martin phone records

Teenagers on their phones with each other for hours? ::jawdrops:: Nice work, Scoop.

ThanksCan't wait to hear her gripping testimony of what was discussed over those ~7 hours.

 

[greenroom]

Where's JoJo at to announce the breaking news this morning ?

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

Where's JoJo at to announce the breaking news this morning ?

what breaking news?

 

[timschochet]

Though I do believe that George Zimmerman murdered Trayvon Martin, I have to say that it bothers me greatly that, from the beginning of this story, the Martin family has chosen to align itself with Al Sharpton. Sharpton is one of the most disreputable race-baiters in our society today. He started his career on a lie (the Tawana Brawley case) for which he has never apologized, and continued with highly inflammatory racial attacks, antisemitism, and bad behavior. It's shameful that MSNBC hired him as a talk show host and a political commentator.

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

That Zimmerman, man he is one creative liar. I'm curious what the kill-da-zimmy crowd points out as definite lies (in their minds) from Zimmerman's statements documented in the link below. I don't care if what you think can be proven or not, I'm just curious what the most blatant lies are in your opinion of this account he gives:

http://www.reddit.com/r/CCW/comments/1g012f/zimmerman_interrogationpolygraph_video/