Florida boy killed by Neighborhood Watch (2 Viewers)

[TobiasFunke]

If GZ was actually white instead of "more or less white" would media coverage have been different?

No, because it was his attitude to assume a young black man in his neighborhood was suspicious that kicked this case into the realm of "how race matters in America in 2013". It is his reason for noticing Martin in the first place, not his skin color/heritage that made this into such a controversial case.

So let me get this straight.....

We are more worried about how a Hispanic man wrongly profiled a young black man...than we are about how that young black man doubled back and started a fight.

The first step in stopping "improper profiling" is to NOT do things wrong which tend to reinforce the profiling. IE: TMs actions legitimized GZs suspicion...the kid WAS a problem. TM would have ended up in jail or dead based on the path he was on. The difference here is that an older Hispanic man killed him instead of another young black man in a gang related fight.

AAs need to stop whining about profiling and get their kids off drugs, out of gangs, and into school. Teach them how to talk to people with respect, and to avoid violence instead of resorting to it at the drop of a hat. Until these kids commit murders and other violence at a rate consistent with other races, there is no grounds for complaining about racial profiling, no matter how unethical it is. 15% of the population is committing over half the murders, and something like 80% of those are against other AAs. Wrap your head around that for a second...how can we as a society avoid racial profiling with statistics so warped? Better yet...WHY WOULD WE? (we being society at large...including AAs, who racially profile just as quickly)

Who do you think is more likely to commit a crime- a wealthy black man raised by a married couple or a poor white man raised by a single mother?

The white man. But what's the point? We aren't analyzing all the WHYs behind the disparity. I'm trying to get you and some others to recognize that the disparity itself is so large that it's unreasonable to expect society to ignore it. FWIW, I think economics play a large role, but that AA urban culture plays a bigger one. Young AA men are teaching others that violence is the answer, and that respect comes with physical power and intimidation. CULTURE is the problem, not skin color.

The point is that if family and socioeconomic status is the greater indicator than race, we should be looking at correcting those things far more than we're looking at "culture." Addressing income disparity and birth rates and other things like drug rehab programs might actually make our cities safer. White people complaining about black people's "culture" like it's some sort of singular thing that causes criminal behavior definitely won't. All that does it make the problem worse by perpetuating racism on both sides.

 

[Spanky267]

.... They both made huge and ultimately incorrect conclusions about each other. ...

Martin may have made many mistakes, but how was his characterization of Zimmerman incorrect?

If the evidence presented is to be believed. Then Martin incorrectly assumed that he could kick the bat snot out of Zimmerman and get away with it. Zimmerman in apparent fear for his life then shot Martin. He characterized Zimmerman as just some punk he could rough up and then move on.

 

[RCon]

It is pointless.

Jon, that's probably the only part of your analysis you got right. You have your version of what happened, I have mine. We're never going to agree with each other. And we're never going to know what happened.

All I'm asking is that you stop pretending that your narrative is based on anything other than conjecture and Zimmerman's story. It isn't.

But didn't you just base your narrative on nothing but conjecture (and disdain for Zimmerman)?

Sure. But I don't state my unproven opinions as facts.

Actually, yes you did.

A lot of you continue to accept Zimmermans tale as if it were Gospel. For the umpteenth time: there's no evidence that Martin initiated the fight. There's no evidence that Martin did serious damage to Zimmerman. There's no evidence that Zimmerman was ever in fear for his life. In fact, all of the evidence we have argues against these points. So please stop arguing as if these points were true. We have no idea if they are true or not, and never will. His acquittal doesn't make them any more true.

You stated that it is a fact that ALL of the evidence we have argues against the idea that Martin initiated the fight.

However, you can't actually point to one single piece of evidence backing that up. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. I don't know, and neither do you.

I can't point to a single bit of evidence that proves Zimmerman started the fight, but I can point to a few pieces of evidence which SUGGEST he did, which is all that I wrote. Those pieces of evidence are (1) Zimmerman complained that these guys always get away (2) Zimmerman stepped out of the car. Flimsy? Yes. Inconclusive? Sure. But it's also ALL OF THE EVIDENCE WE HAVE, which makes my statement correct.

Neither of those are even remotely evidence that Z started the fight. Frankly, you're delusional if you think they are. If you're going for flimsy, the statements that TM allegedly made to his girlfriend/friend/whoever are much less flimsy (in the opposite direction) than the items you've come up with here.

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

I love how everyone turns a blind eye to the underlying reason for the the suspicion.

Look... does it suck that the situation exists that black people are under increased suspicion due to their race? Yes... it's a damn shame to be honest. However black people have as much or more to blame for this predicament than the people who cast a wary eye in their direction. Stop engaging in criminal activity at a rate that is orders of magnitude above any other race, and perhaps you won't be viewed as a race with a predisposition toward crime.

It's an unpopular thing to say... but it's the reality of the situation.

Orientals?

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

.... They both made huge and ultimately incorrect conclusions about each other. ...

Martin may have made many mistakes, but how was his characterization of Zimmerman incorrect?

Well, he wasn't a cracker.

He wasn't a rapist or racist either (depending on if you believe DiDi was coached and she said the wrong word or not).

 

[lod01]

I love how everyone turns a blind eye to the underlying reason for the the suspicion.

Look... does it suck that the situation exists that black people are under increased suspicion due to their race? Yes... it's a damn shame to be honest. However black people have as much or more to blame for this predicament than the people who cast a wary eye in their direction. Stop engaging in criminal activity at a rate that is orders of magnitude above any other race, and perhaps you won't be viewed as a race with a predisposition toward crime.

It's an unpopular thing to say... but it's the reality of the situation.

Orientals?

Bingo.

Zimmerman ####ed up and will pay for the rest of his life, he just won't be in jail. Should have just stayed in the car.

 

[jon_mx]

It is pointless.

Jon, that's probably the only part of your analysis you got right. You have your version of what happened, I have mine. We're never going to agree with each other. And we're never going to know what happened.

All I'm asking is that you stop pretending that your narrative is based on anything other than conjecture and Zimmerman's story. It isn't.

But didn't you just base your narrative on nothing but conjecture (and disdain for Zimmerman)?

Sure. But I don't state my unproven opinions as facts.

Actually, yes you did.

A lot of you continue to accept Zimmermans tale as if it were Gospel. For the umpteenth time: there's no evidence that Martin initiated the fight. There's no evidence that Martin did serious damage to Zimmerman. There's no evidence that Zimmerman was ever in fear for his life. In fact, all of the evidence we have argues against these points. So please stop arguing as if these points were true. We have no idea if they are true or not, and never will. His acquittal doesn't make them any more true.

You stated that it is a fact that ALL of the evidence we have argues against the idea that Martin initiated the fight.

However, you can't actually point to one single piece of evidence backing that up. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. I don't know, and neither do you.

I can't point to a single bit of evidence that proves Zimmerman started the fight, but I can point to a few pieces of evidence which SUGGEST he did, which is all that I wrote. Those pieces of evidence are (1) Zimmerman complained that these guys always get away (2) Zimmerman stepped out of the car. Flimsy? Yes. Inconclusive? Sure. But it's also ALL OF THE EVIDENCE WE HAVE, which makes my statement correct.

You want Zimmerman to be guilty. I never cared. Your emotions cloud your logic way too much. If Zimmerman was a racist murderer, I would be calling for him to spend his life in jail. But the evidence is all on Zimmerman's side. Getting out of the vehicle is evidence of nothing, but an over zealous neighborhood watch person trying his best to help the police.

 

[ArbyMelt]

I hope GZ sues Nancy Grace too. He didn't say this, though she keeps saying it on national TV, and people believe her

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/nancy-grace-says-fking-coons-uncensored-while-railing-against-zimmermans-hatred-for-trayvon/

 

[Spanky267]

A lot of you continue to accept Zimmermans tale as if it were Gospel. For the umpteenth time: there's no evidence that Martin initiated the fight. There's no evidence that Martin did serious damage to Zimmerman. There's no evidence that Zimmerman was ever in fear for his life. In fact, all of the evidence we have argues against these points. So please stop arguing as if these points were true. We have no idea if they are true or not, and never will. His acquittal doesn't make them any more true.

Tim it doesnt matter what we believe. What matters is that the jury thought the events surrounding the shooting as presented by the defense were plausible. The state presented little to no evidence to prove otherwise.

The jury believed that Zimmerman's story was not implausible. The state and the defense called witnesses that supported Zimmerman's portrayal of the events of that evening.

 

[parasaurolophus]

Stop robbing and killing people and people will stop thinking you're likely to rob and kill people.

Not a good posting at all. Icon may have not had a good upbringing, but it's silly for him to compare himself to most black teens. Neither he nor I nor any white person can truly understand what it's like to be black in this country.And while it's true that blacks have a responsibility to improve themselves and stop violence, we as a society also have a responsibility to remove racism from our police and judicial system where it continues to exist.

There have been great strides socially to help combat racism that has opened many doors for blacks in the workforce.

Culturally, black acceptance in society as a whole has come MASSIVE distances over the last 40 years.

However, blacks account for as high (or higher) a percentage of crime as they ever have.

It's easy to live in "Timmay's Fantasy Land" and say "We just need to eliminate racism and everything will be okay. However, at this point the bulk of the blame here is on black America. If they start doing their part, the rest of society can continue the progress they've made thus far. Until then... they are the primary force holding themselves back. Period.

Do you think wealthy blacks commit violent crimes at a higher rate than poor whites?

Why would that matter? I dont think anybody questions whether or not poverty factors into crime levels.

 

[Two Deep]

Martin:

So we're different colors

And we're different creeds

And different people have different needs

It's obvious you hate me

Though I've done nothing wrong

I never even met you

So what could I have done

Zimmerman:

Now you're punching and you're kicking
And you're shouting at me
I'm relying on your common decency
So far it hasn't surfaced
But I'm sure it exists
It just takes a while to travel
From your head to your fist

 

[TobiasFunke]

Stop robbing and killing people and people will stop thinking you're likely to rob and kill people.

Not a good posting at all. Icon may have not had a good upbringing, but it's silly for him to compare himself to most black teens. Neither he nor I nor any white person can truly understand what it's like to be black in this country.And while it's true that blacks have a responsibility to improve themselves and stop violence, we as a society also have a responsibility to remove racism from our police and judicial system where it continues to exist.

There have been great strides socially to help combat racism that has opened many doors for blacks in the workforce.

Culturally, black acceptance in society as a whole has come MASSIVE distances over the last 40 years.

However, blacks account for as high (or higher) a percentage of crime as they ever have.

It's easy to live in "Timmay's Fantasy Land" and say "We just need to eliminate racism and everything will be okay. However, at this point the bulk of the blame here is on black America. If they start doing their part, the rest of society can continue the progress they've made thus far. Until then... they are the primary force holding themselves back. Period.

Do you think wealthy blacks commit violent crimes at a higher rate than poor whites?

Why would that matter? I dont think anybody questions whether or not poverty factors into crime levels.

Because it's really really stupid to characterize a poverty problem/family problem as a "black" problem just because blacks are disproportionately poor and from single parent homes. It's not just racist, it's also counterproductive. It leads to tension between the races and allows people to ignore the actual causes of violent crime. It would be akin to me saying that because unemployment is much lower among Jews than among the general population, the lazy, irresponsible Christian culture is to blame for joblessness.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

This is still going on?

 

[Warrior]

We should point the finger in the direction of ignorance not race. I feel pretty confident that most people, black or white look past race....The only people who can't are the ignorant. I'm sure all of you like people and are tolerant of people regardless of the color of their skin. But I'm also sure that all of you have no tolerance for the ignorant dumb ###, regardless of the color of their skin. It was ignorance that caused Zimmerman to feel the need to confront Martin and it was ignorance that caused Martin to go physical......As a side note take away the gun and all you have is two ignorant people in a fist fight.

Your side note is ignorant. You could have two people in a fist fight, or you could more likely have one man ground-and-pound'ing another to death.

 

[drummer]

This is still going on?

tim is using this issue as a sort of his own personality profile/therapists couch. It can go on forever. It's that classic 'definition of insanity' thing.

 

[Spanky267]

Beyond a shadow of a doubt, Martin was the aggressor on starting the fight. You can argue that Zimmerman provolked it by watching/following. But there is zero percent chance Zimmerman initiated the fight.

This is simply not true. What evidence do we have as regards who started the fight? (Rich, this is in response to you too.)

Here's what we KNOW:

1. Zimmerman reported Martin as suspicious, and complained that these guys "always get away."

Here's what we THINK we know:

1. Zimmerman was following Martin, and stepped out of his car to do so.

2. Martin was heading home, but refused to run home, despite the urging of Rachel.

Based on this evidence, (which admittedly is pretty slight) it is more likely that Zimmerman was the initiator. EVERYTHING else is complete conjecture, or based on Zimmerman's self-serving narrative of events.

What did Zimmerman initiate? At worst a verbal confrontation? To which no evidence exists. Martin had no wounds except for the gunshot wound. Yet Zimmerman had a broken nose and lacerations on the back of his head, but he was the aggressor? Zimmerman initiated the fight and didnt get one good shot in? Usually the guy who is the aggressor gets at least one shot in.

Come on Tim.

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

Beyond a shadow of a doubt, Martin was the aggressor on starting the fight. You can argue that Zimmerman provolked it by watching/following. But there is zero percent chance Zimmerman initiated the fight.

This is simply not true. What evidence do we have as regards who started the fight? (Rich, this is in response to you too.)Here's what we KNOW:

1. Zimmerman reported Martin as suspicious, and complained that these guys "always get away."

Here's what we THINK we know:

1. Zimmerman was following Martin, and stepped out of his car to do so.

2. Martin was heading home, but refused to run home, despite the urging of Rachel.

Based on this evidence, (which admittedly is pretty slight) it is more likely that Zimmerman was the initiator. EVERYTHING else is complete conjecture, or based on Zimmerman's self-serving narrative of events.

Jenna Lauer states she heard the initial exchange at the top of the T. The ONLY way Z is the aggressor is if Martin approached Z at the T. 4 minutes.

 

[John Bender]

This is still going on?

Everyone is racist. HTH (except Tim)

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

yes if you had grown up black, you would perceive these events very differently. If you had been followed before by someone who was suspicious of you because you were black and nothing else, you would perceive these events very differently.

Be thankful that the reaction in the black community is so foreign to you that you do not understand how someone could react that way. That means you're privileged in this culture.

Anyone would be annoyed by someone following/watching them, but it is called a neighborhood watch for a reason. It had to do with a stranger wandering around suspeciously then it did skin color. Anyone who thinks it has to do with skin color must be a mind reader, but Zimmerman never made it a point.

I love how everyone turns a blind eye to the underlying reason for the the suspicion.

Look... does it suck that the situation exists that black people are under increased suspicion due to their race? Yes... it's a damn shame to be honest. However black people have as much or more to blame for this predicament than the people who cast a wary eye in their direction. Stop engaging in criminal activity at a rate that is orders of magnitude above any other race, and perhaps you won't be viewed as a race with a predisposition toward crime.

It's an unpopular thing to say... but it's the reality of the situation.

20 yo Interpol data is the best you can do? At least use something more current and based on US stats. http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table-43

What happens when you take those numbers and account for race scarcity?

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

If GZ was actually white instead of "more or less white" would media coverage have been different?

No, because it was his attitude to assume a young black man in his neighborhood was suspicious that kicked this case into the realm of "how race matters in America in 2013". It is his reason for noticing Martin in the first place, not his skin color/heritage that made this into such a controversial case.

Was his suspicion of Martin based solely on his race? Was there anything that had been going on in the neighborhood in recent months that may have led Zimmerman to be suspicious?

Yes there were some break-ins and home invasions. No it was not race based. Zimmerman had called the police 45 times in the previous 12 months on whites, hispancins, blacks..males..females..whoever he felt did not belong in the gated community. Zimmerman called on everybody..but that is what the community wanted him to do,

wrong, it wasn't 12 months - more like 4-5 years.

 

[Two Deep]

We should point the finger in the direction of ignorance not race. I feel pretty confident that most people, black or white look past race....The only people who can't are the ignorant. I'm sure all of you like people and are tolerant of people regardless of the color of their skin. But I'm also sure that all of you have no tolerance for the ignorant dumb ###, regardless of the color of their skin. It was ignorance that caused Zimmerman to feel the need to confront Martin and it was ignorance that caused Martin to go physical......As a side note take away the gun and all you have is two ignorant people in a fist fight.

Your side note is ignorant. You could have two people in a fist fight, or you could more likely have one man ground-and-pound'ing another to death.

Well again Zimmerman was ignorant to confront an individual who could ground and pound him.

 

[Spanky267]

A lot of you continue to accept Zimmermans tale as if it were Gospel. For the umpteenth time: there's no evidence that Martin initiated the fight. There's no evidence that Martin did serious damage to Zimmerman. There's no evidence that Zimmerman was ever in fear for his life. In fact, all of the evidence we have argues against these points. So please stop arguing as if these points were true. We have no idea if they are true or not, and never will. His acquittal doesn't make them any more true.

Let's see, should I believe Tim the internet expert or Dr. Vincent Di Maio, the leading forensic expert in the world. Tough call.

Maio never testified that Zimmerman suffered serious damage. He never testified to any of the three points I just listed.

He did however say that Trayvon was shot while on top of Zimmerman. How many people with someone on top of them hitting them aren't scared? I'll argue that he was too quick to go for his gun instead of trying to get Trayvon off of him but he was reasonably scared for serious bodily injury while in that position.

We don't know this. They might have been wrestling around, and at the time Zimmerman reached for his gun, Martin might have been on top- for a brief moment of time. Certainly based on the state's ME, Zimmerman's injuries did not warrant anything close to fear for his life.

I dont know wall the laws, but he doesnt need to fear for his life....Fear for his life or bodily harm is good enough. Could be wrong though.

I would fear for bodily harm in the situation.

This is correct. But Zimmerman stated to the police that he feared he was going to die. He also stated that Martin told him he was going to die. If Zimmerman feared bodily harm, then he (Zimmerman) is also a liar, which should make any rational person think his entire story is full of bs. Given this and the ME testimony, I reasonably conclude that Zimmerman neither feared for his life or great bodily harm. But that is only my opinion; I don't offer it as fact nor can I remove the possibility of reasonable doubt.

Tim can you not fear for your life and great bodily harm at the same time? It seems to me that being killed would cause great bodily harm. One can follow the other. Zimmerman isnt a liar for stating that he feared for his life to investigators while also fearing bodily harm. I would imagine that if you are getting your butt whipped in a fight that you might go from fearing getting hurt badly to fearing you might just die.

But hey what do I know.

 

[avoiding injuries]

I can't believe there is still a strong argument being made against GZ and his story. The trial is OVER. All the facts, witnesses and forensics are out. His story was corroborated in every way available and when he thought the whole thing was on video, he was relieved. This is not how someone who is lying would react.

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

 

[Joe McGee]

Stop robbing and killing people and people will stop thinking you're likely to rob and kill people.

Not a good posting at all. Icon may have not had a good upbringing, but it's silly for him to compare himself to most black teens. Neither he nor I nor any white person can truly understand what it's like to be black in this country.And while it's true that blacks have a responsibility to improve themselves and stop violence, we as a society also have a responsibility to remove racism from our police and judicial system where it continues to exist.

There have been great strides socially to help combat racism that has opened many doors for blacks in the workforce.

Culturally, black acceptance in society as a whole has come MASSIVE distances over the last 40 years.

However, blacks account for as high (or higher) a percentage of crime as they ever have.

It's easy to live in "Timmay's Fantasy Land" and say "We just need to eliminate racism and everything will be okay. However, at this point the bulk of the blame here is on black America. If they start doing their part, the rest of society can continue the progress they've made thus far. Until then... they are the primary force holding themselves back. Period.

Do you think wealthy blacks commit violent crimes at a higher rate than poor whites?

Why would that matter? I dont think anybody questions whether or not poverty factors into crime levels.

Because it's really really stupid to characterize a poverty problem/family problem as a "black" problem just because blacks are disproportionately poor and from single parent homes. It's not just racist, it's also counterproductive. It leads to tension between the races and allows people to ignore the actual causes of violent crime. It would be akin to me saying that because unemployment is much lower among Jews than among the general population, the lazy, irresponsible Christian culture is to blame for joblessness.

Way to add nothing to the discussion. WHY do people that don't have a leg to stand always have to come up with some sort of hypothetical?

If ifs and buts...

 

[Spanky267]

What do people that want "Justice for trayvon" actually think is justice in this case?

Young black men no longer being considered "suspicious" in our society simply because they are young black men.

When you loiter or act suspiciously then you draw attention to yourself regardless of your race. I am involved in a youth sports organization. I am suspicious of single men that I dont recognize loitering around our facility. I am not a cop but I am responsible for almost 300 children and their safety on a daily basis. If I follow a middle aged man, regardless or race, who doesnt look like he belongs in my park am I doing something wrong? I am trained by the county to profile such individuals. Is that wrong? I will often ask what they are doing at our facility. If they can explain why they are there my level of suspicion doesnt disappear but it is reduced. If they can't then they are asked to leave.

Sorry, but you just don't seem to get it, and neither do many people here. Yes it's true that white kids dressed like gangbangers who act suspiciously or loiter are going to get treated suspiciously by police. But it's not on the same level. Black kids get treated suspiciously pretty much no matter what they do. They are subjected to a level of scrutiny by the police which white kids have never have to endure. It is simply not the same thing, and it is wrong for you to pretend that it is.

Tim do not even begin to preach to me sir. I grew up in a predominantly black neighborhood and lived there until shortly after I was married. I have seen how black people are treated by police. I have seen how poor people are treated by police. I have seen how I have been treated at traffic stops in my own neighborhood as a teenager. Many times it depends on how you interact with law enforcement that determines how you are treated by the officers. I got pulled over 3 blocks from my house when I was 18. It was about 15 minutes before my 12am curfew. My neighnorhood was known for drug dealing and prostitution. I was pulled over for displaying two license plates. But also because I look white and was driving into a predominantly black neighborhood at almost midnight. When I pulled over I immediately shut my car off, rolled down the window and stuck both hands out of it so the officer could clearly see I was not a threat. He asked me about the two tags and where I was going. I explained why I had the two plates, one was a temp tag, and that I was on my way home which was confirmed by the address on my license. He gave me a warning and told me to go home. If I had been mouthy or disrespectful I am sure I might not have been let off so easy.

It is tragic that some members of law enforcement are bigotted. But when you deal with a community that promotes "no snitching" and not working with police to catch criminals then the police have to be suspicious of more people.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Because it's really really stupid to characterize a poverty problem/family problem as a "black" problem just because blacks are disproportionately poor and from single parent homes. It's not just racist, it's also counterproductive. It leads to tension between the races and allows people to ignore the actual causes of violent crime. It would be akin to me saying that because unemployment is much lower among Jews than among the general population, the lazy, irresponsible Christian culture is to blame for joblessness.

Way to add nothing to the discussion. WHY do people that don't have a leg to stand always have to come up with some sort of hypothetical?

If ifs and buts...

You don't know the difference between an analogy and a hypothetical, and you say I'm the one adding nothing to the discussion? Well done.

 

[Joe McGee]

Because it's really really stupid to characterize a poverty problem/family problem as a "black" problem just because blacks are disproportionately poor and from single parent homes. It's not just racist, it's also counterproductive. It leads to tension between the races and allows people to ignore the actual causes of violent crime. It would be akin to me saying that because unemployment is much lower among Jews than among the general population, the lazy, irresponsible Christian culture is to blame for joblessness.

Way to add nothing to the discussion. WHY do people that don't have a leg to stand always have to come up with some sort of hypothetical?

If ifs and buts...

You don't know the difference between an analogy and a hypothetical, and you say I'm the one adding nothing to the discussion? Well done.

You are still adding nothing to the discussion.

 

[lod01]

We should point the finger in the direction of ignorance not race. I feel pretty confident that most people, black or white look past race....The only people who can't are the ignorant. I'm sure all of you like people and are tolerant of people regardless of the color of their skin. But I'm also sure that all of you have no tolerance for the ignorant dumb ###, regardless of the color of their skin. It was ignorance that caused Zimmerman to feel the need to confront Martin and it was ignorance that caused Martin to go physical......As a side note take away the gun and all you have is two ignorant people in a fist fight.

Your side note is ignorant. You could have two people in a fist fight, or you could more likely have one man ground-and-pound'ing another to death.

We should arm both ignorant people with guns. That way when one gets the upper hand, the other can shoot him.

 

[renesauz]

Stop robbing and killing people and people will stop thinking you're likely to rob and kill people.

Not a good posting at all. Icon may have not had a good upbringing, but it's silly for him to compare himself to most black teens. Neither he nor I nor any white person can truly understand what it's like to be black in this country.And while it's true that blacks have a responsibility to improve themselves and stop violence, we as a society also have a responsibility to remove racism from our police and judicial system where it continues to exist.

There have been great strides socially to help combat racism that has opened many doors for blacks in the workforce.

Culturally, black acceptance in society as a whole has come MASSIVE distances over the last 40 years.

However, blacks account for as high (or higher) a percentage of crime as they ever have.

It's easy to live in "Timmay's Fantasy Land" and say "We just need to eliminate racism and everything will be okay. However, at this point the bulk of the blame here is on black America. If they start doing their part, the rest of society can continue the progress they've made thus far. Until then... they are the primary force holding themselves back. Period.

Do you think wealthy blacks commit violent crimes at a higher rate than poor whites?

Why would that matter? I dont think anybody questions whether or not poverty factors into crime levels.

Because it's really really stupid to characterize a poverty problem/family problem as a "black" problem just because blacks are disproportionately poor and from single parent homes. It's not just racist, it's also counterproductive. It leads to tension between the races and allows people to ignore the actual causes of violent crime. It would be akin to me saying that because unemployment is much lower among Jews than among the general population, the lazy, irresponsible Christian culture is to blame for joblessness.

You are right, but only in as far as you take this line of logic. You take the profiling as racism, when it's nothing more than following the same simple logic....skin color isn't the cause of the violence, low SES and single family homes are...but it does nothing to change the data. A random 20 year old black kid is 10X more likely to commit a violent crime than a random white kid the same age. That simple fact leads to profiling, regardless of the reasons behind the disparity.

And yes...culture is a problem. AAs in general have a very definitive victim mentality and deflect far too often. This happens throughout most SES levels.

 

[ATC1]

A lot of you continue to accept Zimmermans tale as if it were Gospel. For the umpteenth time: there's no evidence that Martin initiated the fight. There's no evidence that Martin did serious damage to Zimmerman. There's no evidence that Zimmerman was ever in fear for his life. In fact, all of the evidence we have argues against these points. So please stop arguing as if these points were true. We have no idea if they are true or not, and never will. His acquittal doesn't make them any more true.

Except for the fact that the lead investigator who knows more about this case then anyone in this thread believes Zimmerman was telling the truth.

 

[Todd Andrews]

Too bad Zimmerman didnt waste this kid, too.

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

The full text exchange that was not allowed in court due to authentication reasons (Judge thought someone could have been impersonating Trayvon), this was protected behind two passwords, 1 for the phone and another to specifically hide text messages and photos in an application installed on the phone.

Bae is shorthand for Babe

MARTIN: Cause man dat [n-word] snitched on me

FRIEND: Bae y you always fightinqq man, you got suspended?

MARTIN: Naw we thumped afta skool in a duckd off spot

FRIEND: Ohh, Well Damee

MARTIN: I lost da 1st round :( but won da 2nd nd 3rd . . . .

FRIEND: Ohhh So It Wass 3 Rounds? Damn well at least yu wonn lol but yuu needa stop fighting bae Forreal

MARTIN: Nay im not done with fool..... he gone hav 2 see me again

FRIEND: Nooo... Stop, yuu waint gonn bee satisified till yuh suspended again, huh?

MARTIN: Naw but he aint breed nuff 4 me, only his nose

The fight followed the mixed martial arts (MMA) format. A day later, Martin would tell a friend that his opponent "got mo hits cause in da 1st round he had me on da ground nd I couldn't do ntn."

As the girl complained, Martin was "always" fighting. He was also something of a sadist. His opponent, after all, did not bleed enough. Why might this be relevant?

Jonathan Good, the closest of the eyewitnesses to the shooting, confirmed last week the testimony he gave on the night of the shooting, specifically that there was a "black man in a black hoodie on top of either a white guy ... or an Hispanic guy in a red sweater on the ground yelling out help," and that black man on top was "throwing down blows on the guy MMA [mixed martial arts] style." That is right: "yelling out help."

On January 6, 2012, Martin got into trouble at school again. When asked why, he told a friend, "Caus I was watcn a fight nd a teacher say I hit em." Said the friend, "Idk how u be getting in trouble an sh**." By this time, Martin's mother had thrown him out of the house for "fightn," and he had moved in with his aunt and uncle.

Martin's younger half-brother, Demetrius Martin, sent one of the more indicative messages. Last seen in the media crying as he remembered his brother during a "March for Peace," Demetrius asked Martin when he was "going to teach me to fight."

If this was entered into evidence the jury would have been done in just a few hours.

It was Martin's MO to act this way, this wasn't the first time he broke someone's nose, and it wasn't the first time someone didn't bleed (or breed) enough with just a broken nose, it wasn't the first time he took his anger out on someone snitching on him, and it certainly wasn't his first fight - his mother threw him out of the house for fighting, he admits in his text message that he understands the disadvantage it puts someone in when their opponent is able to get them on their back on the ground.

 

[Spanky267]

Too bad Zimmerman didnt waste this kid, too.

Really. I'm surprised he hasnt shot Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny yet. They are known for breaking and entering.

 

[Spanky267]

Bloomberg wants to use George Zimmerman's acquittal to push for tougher gun laws:

link

I am completely surprised by this.

In other news the NYPD will contiune with its Stop & Frisk program.

 

[ArbyMelt]

Too bad Zimmerman didnt waste this kid, too.

I didn't think anyone could approach Tim in this thread. We have a winner. This is a new low for this thread.

 

[Joe McGee]

Per ABC news, in the 10 year period from 2000 to 2009, black-on-white killings grew from 8,503 to 8,530 while white-on-black slayings dropped from 4,745 to 4,380. Even though whites account for approximately 64% of the population and Blacks account for less than 13% of the
population, 8% of all homicides are black-on-white murders while only 4% are white-on-black murders.

 

[cstu]

A lot of you continue to accept Zimmermans tale as if it were Gospel. For the umpteenth time: there's no evidence that Martin initiated the fight. There's no evidence that Martin did serious damage to Zimmerman. There's no evidence that Zimmerman was ever in fear for his life. In fact, all of the evidence we have argues against these points. So please stop arguing as if these points were true. We have no idea if they are true or not, and never will. His acquittal doesn't make them any more true.

The evidence that no one is disputing is that Trayvon turned around to go confront GZ instead of going into his house. We don't know what happened after that but it's highly unlikely that he went back only to tell him "Sir, I noticed your were following me earlier and I came back to tell you I didn't appreciate it".

There is no evidence of this. It is all conjecture based on timeline. We have no idea whatsoever that Trayvon turned around, and never will.

Take a look at the map. There was a 3 minute gap between the time GZ got off the phone and someone called 911:

• 7:13:41 — The end of Zimmerman's call to Sanford police.[14]

• 7:16:00 - 7:16:59 — Martin's call from the girl goes dead during this minute.[14][15]

• 7:16:11 — First 911 call from witness about a fight, calls for help heard.[16]

7:16:55 — Gunshot heard on 911 call

Had Trayvon walked directly to his house he'd be alive today.

 

[lod01]

Too bad Zimmerman didnt waste this kid, too.

I didn't think anyone could approach Tim in this thread. We have a winner. This is a new low for this thread.

That one is going to be tough to top.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

Regardless of the issues of the black community, we still have to rely on the justice system. A justice system that has failed us too many times.

It didn't this time.

It did.

How so? Given the evidence...you think the jury should've ruled "Guilty"...and of what? Based on what, specifically?

I know I'm not going to sway you and you're probably not going to sway me...but it still might be worth an attempt or two to discuss.

Because a black youth was killed and his murderer walks free, he gets no consequences. At all. No probation, no lesser charge, nothing.

How do you not see the issue with this?

But what can you do? We have the rules of evidence and you have to abide by them.

What else would you do? Just because it was a black youth that died...send the guy to jail without evidence? Just to "make it right" or like the NBA does..."a makeup call"?

Lets not forget cases like the Casey Anthony murder...she was guilty and walked ...and we all know what race she is

 

[The Commish]

Too bad Zimmerman didnt waste this kid, too.

I didn't think anyone could approach Tim in this thread. We have a winner. This is a new low for this thread.

That one is going to be tough to top.

Not familiar with the work of Jo Jo or Mr Two Cents???

 

[cstu]

If GZ was actually white instead of "more or less white" would media coverage have been different?

No, because it was his attitude to assume a young black man in his neighborhood was suspicious that kicked this case into the realm of "how race matters in America in 2013". It is his reason for noticing Martin in the first place, not his skin color/heritage that made this into such a controversial case.

So let me get this straight.....

We are more worried about how a Hispanic man wrongly profiled a young black man...than we are about how that young black man doubled back and started a fight.

The first step in stopping "improper profiling" is to NOT do things wrong which tend to reinforce the profiling. IE: TMs actions legitimized GZs suspicion...the kid WAS a problem. TM would have ended up in jail or dead based on the path he was on. The difference here is that an older Hispanic man killed him instead of another young black man in a gang related fight.

AAs need to stop whining about profiling and get their kids off drugs, out of gangs, and into school. Teach them how to talk to people with respect, and to avoid violence instead of resorting to it at the drop of a hat. Until these kids commit murders and other violence at a rate consistent with other races, there is no grounds for complaining about racial profiling, no matter how unethical it is. 15% of the population is committing over half the murders, and something like 80% of those are against other AAs. Wrap your head around that for a second...how can we as a society avoid racial profiling with statistics so warped? Better yet...WHY WOULD WE? (we being society at large...including AAs, who racially profile just as quickly)

This is exactly what I'm talking about. In order to bolster your overall argument, you take a part of Zimmerman's narrative and simply assume that it's true. But it's completely unproven, without any evidence to support it.

There's simply no way based on the timeline and location of the events for Trayvon not to have turned around to confront him. It was a straight path to his house and a minute away.

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

Too bad Zimmerman didnt waste this kid, too.

I didn't think anyone could approach Tim in this thread. We have a winner. This is a new low for this thread.

That one is going to be tough to top.

Not familiar with the work of Jo Jo or Mr Two Cents???

The Omission strikes again by singling out the participants covering one side of the story!

 

[The Commish]

Too bad Zimmerman didnt waste this kid, too.

I didn't think anyone could approach Tim in this thread. We have a winner. This is a new low for this thread.

That one is going to be tough to top.

Not familiar with the work of Jo Jo or Mr Two Cents???

The Omission strikes again by singling out the participants covering one side of the story!

That's anecdotal. Doesn't change the substance of your posts. If you're going to post it, you might as well own it Is it my fault that you helped reach new lows? I certainly have no control over which "side" you're on.

 

[timschochet]

Too bad Zimmerman didnt waste this kid, too.

I didn't think anyone could approach Tim in this thread. We have a winner. This is a new low for this thread.

Todd Andrews is a troll who would rather incite people than engage them in discussion. That's not me.

I certainly have my opinion about what happened with Zimmerman, and about the larger issue of race relations. I certainly take issue with many of the arguments made in this thread. But I try not to incite people, and to me the discussion is more valuable than proving myself right.

 

[The Commish]

Too bad Zimmerman didnt waste this kid, too.

I didn't think anyone could approach Tim in this thread. We have a winner. This is a new low for this thread.

That one is going to be tough to top.

Not familiar with the work of Jo Jo or Mr Two Cents???

The Omission strikes again by singling out the participants covering one side of the story!

That's anecdotal. Doesn't change the substance of your posts. If you're going to post it, you might as well own it

The more you drag my name through the mud, the more I'm going to call you out for being the biased P.O.S. that you are.

Keep fighting the fight you've created If you don't want people taking issue with your offensive and childish posts, don't post them. Love the sense of entitlement you have here Jo Jo.

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

Too bad Zimmerman didnt waste this kid, too.

I didn't think anyone could approach Tim in this thread. We have a winner. This is a new low for this thread.

That one is going to be tough to top.

Not familiar with the work of Jo Jo or Mr Two Cents???

The Omission strikes again by singling out the participants covering one side of the story!

That's anecdotal. Doesn't change the substance of your posts. If you're going to post it, you might as well own it

The more you drag my name through the mud, the more I'm going to call you out for being the biased P.O.S. that you are.

Keep fighting the fight you've created If you don't want people taking issue with your offensive and childish posts, don't post them. Love the sense of entitlement you have here Jo Jo.

I've created? I'm not the dbag bringing your name into arguments showing "how holier than I am" whenever I get the chance.

 

[Henry Ford]

Per ABC news, in the 10 year period from 2000 to 2009, black-on-white killings grew from 8,503 to 8,530 while white-on-black slayings dropped from 4,745 to 4,380. Even though whites account for approximately 64% of the population and Blacks account for less than 13% of the

population, 8% of all homicides are black-on-white murders while only 4% are white-on-black murders.

Or, to put it another way, If you're black, you're approximately three times as likely to be killed by a white person as a particular white person is to be killed by a black person.

 

[timschochet]

OK, several of you have responded to my point that there is no evidence that Trayvon Martin doubled back by pointing to the timeline, to the statement by Martin on the phone to Rachel that he was "outside his house", to the statement by Jenna as to where the confrontation took place- all of this, you argue, would cause someone to reasonably conclude that Martin must have doubled back, which would therefore indicate that it's more likely that Trayvon Martin was the actual person who initiated the confrontation.

I am not convinced of that, but you guys make persuasive enough arguments so that I will amend my original contention that there is NO evidence to suggest that Trayvon initiated the fight. Rather, I will now say that there is no conclusive evidence as to who initiated the fight. I will no longer contend that it is more likely that Zimmerman initiated the fight. We just don't know. It does not change my original point this morning that it is wrong for people to simply accept Zimmerman's narrative without question. For the purposes of reaching a verdict in the trial, fine- his narrative which can't be disproved provides reasonable doubt. But for the purposes of discussion we can certainly question it.

 

[jon_mx]

Regardless of the issues of the black community, we still have to rely on the justice system. A justice system that has failed us too many times.

It didn't this time.

It did.

How so? Given the evidence...you think the jury should've ruled "Guilty"...and of what? Based on what, specifically?I know I'm not going to sway you and you're probably not going to sway me...but it still might be worth an attempt or two to discuss.

Because a black youth was killed and his murderer walks free, he gets no consequences. At all. No probation, no lesser charge, nothing.

How do you not see the issue with this?

But what can you do? We have the rules of evidence and you have to abide by them.What else would you do? Just because it was a black youth that died...send the guy to jail without evidence? Just to "make it right" or like the NBA does..."a makeup call"?

Lets not forget cases like the Casey Anthony murder...she was guilty and walked ...and we all know what race she is

Semi hot female?