Florida boy killed by Neighborhood Watch (1 Viewer)

[renesauz]

But Zimmerman's previous arrests for violent crimes don't seem to matter.

They matter. I argued before that a single incident didn't, especially when it was a dropped domestic violence charge...but there's more than one.Unfortunately...the ones on the kid matter too. Not only is the kid NOT squeaky clean, but there's at least anecdoctal evidance that he might have a predisposition towards violence also.

It's kind of a wash leaving us nowhere closer to the truth.

No, it's not really a wash. Having 2 violence related arrests (son of a judge not charged, go figure) is way different than a teen boy acting like a teen boy. I must've missed the anecdotal evidence of Martin's violent past, I assume you're not talking about playing football.

A teen boy stupid enough to have drug paraphenalia with him at school? to be videotaped vandalizing school property? to be carrying a bag full of womens jewelry and have ZERO explanation for where/how he got it? His twitter account reads like a gang-banger, and suggests he took a swing at his bus driver. This was NOT a good or innocent kid. He may have done nothing on the night in question, but his past suggests he was certainly capable of having done something, despite the earliest media reports depicting him as a saint. He was anything but.A wash...at best

 

[Slapdash]

Think Progress asks some pretty good questions, IMO:

1. What was the purported "conflict" that required the initial prosecutor to step down? On March 22 — after several weeks on the job — state attorney Norm Wolfinger stepped down from his role as prosecutor in the Trayvon Martin case. Wolfinger relinquished his post after meeting with Florida Gov. Rick Scott and Attorney General Pam Bondi. He said it was necessary for him to step aside to preserve "the integrity of this investigation," adding he wanted to avoid "the appearance of a conflict of interest." He did not explain why his continued involvement would damage the integrity of the case or explain the potential conflict he was seeking to avoid. Did anyone at the prosecutor's office know Zimmerman or his family? [Orlando Sentinel]



2. Why did the prosecutor ignore the recommendations of the lead homicide investigator? ABC News reported that Chris Serino, the lead homicide investigator on the Trayvon Martin case, recommended that Zimmerman be charged with manslaughter on the night of the shooting. Serino filed an affidavit that night stating "he was unconvinced Zimmerman's version of events." As the lead homicide investigator, Serino was: 1. In the best position to evaluate Zimmerman's credibility, and 2. Intimately familiar with Florida law. Why was he ignored? [ABC News]

3. Why did then-Police Chief Bill Lee make public statements directly contradicting the official recommendations of the police department? On the day the Sanford Police concluded their investigation and handed over the case to the prosecutor, then-Police Chief Bill Lee stated publicly that there was no "probable cause" to arrest or charge Zimmerman. (Lee has subsequently "temporarily" stepped down from his post.) But the Miami Herald reports that on the same day the Sanford Police formally requested that the prosecutor charge Zimmerman, something known as a "capias" request. [ThinkProgress]

4. Who leaked Trayvon Martin's school records? As public outrage increased, Zimmerman's sympathizers launched a smear campaign against Trayvon Martin. This included details of several occasions where Martin was suspended for minor infractions (defacing a locker, possessing an empty "marijuana baggie.") None of the information seemed to have any particular relevance to the night Trayvon Martin was shot to death. Was this a ham-handed attempt by the police or the prosecutor to defend their lack of action against Zimmerman? The Sanford City Manager announced he would launch an independent investigation into the source of the leak. [Miami Herald; NBC12]

5. Why was Trayvon Martin's body tagged as a John Doe? The Washington Post's Jonathan Capehart notes a police report "that was completed at 3:07 a.m. on Feb. 27 lists Trayvon's full name, city of birth, address and phone number." But yet, Trayvon's body was reportedly "tagged as a John Doe" and his father wasn't informed of his death until after he filed a missing person report later on the 27th. Why weren't Trayvon Martin's parents contacted immediately after the police confirmed his identity? [Washington Post]

Number 5 is interesting.

No, it's not.

Yes it is.

 

[Zow]

Think Progress asks some pretty good questions, IMO:

1. What was the purported "conflict" that required the initial prosecutor to step down? On March 22 — after several weeks on the job — state attorney Norm Wolfinger stepped down from his role as prosecutor in the Trayvon Martin case. Wolfinger relinquished his post after meeting with Florida Gov. Rick Scott and Attorney General Pam Bondi. He said it was necessary for him to step aside to preserve "the integrity of this investigation," adding he wanted to avoid "the appearance of a conflict of interest." He did not explain why his continued involvement would damage the integrity of the case or explain the potential conflict he was seeking to avoid. Did anyone at the prosecutor's office know Zimmerman or his family? [Orlando Sentinel]



2. Why did the prosecutor ignore the recommendations of the lead homicide investigator? ABC News reported that Chris Serino, the lead homicide investigator on the Trayvon Martin case, recommended that Zimmerman be charged with manslaughter on the night of the shooting. Serino filed an affidavit that night stating "he was unconvinced Zimmerman's version of events." As the lead homicide investigator, Serino was: 1. In the best position to evaluate Zimmerman's credibility, and 2. Intimately familiar with Florida law. Why was he ignored? [ABC News]

3. Why did then-Police Chief Bill Lee make public statements directly contradicting the official recommendations of the police department? On the day the Sanford Police concluded their investigation and handed over the case to the prosecutor, then-Police Chief Bill Lee stated publicly that there was no "probable cause" to arrest or charge Zimmerman. (Lee has subsequently "temporarily" stepped down from his post.) But the Miami Herald reports that on the same day the Sanford Police formally requested that the prosecutor charge Zimmerman, something known as a "capias" request. [ThinkProgress]

4. Who leaked Trayvon Martin's school records? As public outrage increased, Zimmerman's sympathizers launched a smear campaign against Trayvon Martin. This included details of several occasions where Martin was suspended for minor infractions (defacing a locker, possessing an empty "marijuana baggie.") None of the information seemed to have any particular relevance to the night Trayvon Martin was shot to death. Was this a ham-handed attempt by the police or the prosecutor to defend their lack of action against Zimmerman? The Sanford City Manager announced he would launch an independent investigation into the source of the leak. [Miami Herald; NBC12]

5. Why was Trayvon Martin's body tagged as a John Doe? The Washington Post's Jonathan Capehart notes a police report "that was completed at 3:07 a.m. on Feb. 27 lists Trayvon's full name, city of birth, address and phone number." But yet, Trayvon's body was reportedly "tagged as a John Doe" and his father wasn't informed of his death until after he filed a missing person report later on the 27th. Why weren't Trayvon Martin's parents contacted immediately after the police confirmed his identity? [Washington Post]

Number 5 is interesting.

No, it's not.

Yes it is.

why?

 

[Slapdash]

Think Progress asks some pretty good questions, IMO:

1. What was the purported "conflict" that required the initial prosecutor to step down? On March 22 — after several weeks on the job — state attorney Norm Wolfinger stepped down from his role as prosecutor in the Trayvon Martin case. Wolfinger relinquished his post after meeting with Florida Gov. Rick Scott and Attorney General Pam Bondi. He said it was necessary for him to step aside to preserve "the integrity of this investigation," adding he wanted to avoid "the appearance of a conflict of interest." He did not explain why his continued involvement would damage the integrity of the case or explain the potential conflict he was seeking to avoid. Did anyone at the prosecutor's office know Zimmerman or his family? [Orlando Sentinel]



2. Why did the prosecutor ignore the recommendations of the lead homicide investigator? ABC News reported that Chris Serino, the lead homicide investigator on the Trayvon Martin case, recommended that Zimmerman be charged with manslaughter on the night of the shooting. Serino filed an affidavit that night stating "he was unconvinced Zimmerman's version of events." As the lead homicide investigator, Serino was: 1. In the best position to evaluate Zimmerman's credibility, and 2. Intimately familiar with Florida law. Why was he ignored? [ABC News]

3. Why did then-Police Chief Bill Lee make public statements directly contradicting the official recommendations of the police department? On the day the Sanford Police concluded their investigation and handed over the case to the prosecutor, then-Police Chief Bill Lee stated publicly that there was no "probable cause" to arrest or charge Zimmerman. (Lee has subsequently "temporarily" stepped down from his post.) But the Miami Herald reports that on the same day the Sanford Police formally requested that the prosecutor charge Zimmerman, something known as a "capias" request. [ThinkProgress]

4. Who leaked Trayvon Martin's school records? As public outrage increased, Zimmerman's sympathizers launched a smear campaign against Trayvon Martin. This included details of several occasions where Martin was suspended for minor infractions (defacing a locker, possessing an empty "marijuana baggie.") None of the information seemed to have any particular relevance to the night Trayvon Martin was shot to death. Was this a ham-handed attempt by the police or the prosecutor to defend their lack of action against Zimmerman? The Sanford City Manager announced he would launch an independent investigation into the source of the leak. [Miami Herald; NBC12]

5. Why was Trayvon Martin's body tagged as a John Doe? The Washington Post's Jonathan Capehart notes a police report "that was completed at 3:07 a.m. on Feb. 27 lists Trayvon's full name, city of birth, address and phone number." But yet, Trayvon's body was reportedly "tagged as a John Doe" and his father wasn't informed of his death until after he filed a missing person report later on the 27th. Why weren't Trayvon Martin's parents contacted immediately after the police confirmed his identity? [Washington Post]

Number 5 is interesting.

No, it's not.

Yes it is.

why?

Because they knew the identify of the victim and did not attempt to contact his family until after they had filed a missing persons report.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

But Zimmerman's previous arrests for violent crimes don't seem to matter.

They matter. I argued before that a single incident didn't, especially when it was a dropped domestic violence charge...but there's more than one.Unfortunately...the ones on the kid matter too. Not only is the kid NOT squeaky clean, but there's at least anecdoctal evidance that he might have a predisposition towards violence also.

It's kind of a wash leaving us nowhere closer to the truth.

No, it's not really a wash. Having 2 violence related arrests (son of a judge not charged, go figure) is way different than a teen boy acting like a teen boy. I must've missed the anecdotal evidence of Martin's violent past, I assume you're not talking about playing football.

A teen boy stupid enough to have drug paraphenalia with him at school? to be videotaped vandalizing school property? to be carrying a bag full of wqomens jewelry and have ZERO explanation for where/how he got it? His twitter account reads like a gang-banger, and suggests he took a swing at his bus driver. This was NOT a good or innocent kid. He may have done nothing on the night in question, but his past suggests he ws certainly capable of having done something, despite the earlierst media reports depicting him as a saint. He was anything but.A wash...at best

lets just say hes acting out coming from a broken home and all, or maybe its that and hes hanging around with the wrong crew. He lives in an area where a 100 kids will gather in front of a walgreen`s and run in as a mob and steal whatever they want and run out. Does that sound like a place a kid can live and NOT get into some trouble? To say hes bad kid is pushing it. I was in trouble all the time growing up, and my probation officer said i was a good kid who made bad decisions. I know that what he said is true. Lets not try to disgrace a dead 17 yo kid to try to justify his death, its sad.

 

[renesauz]

What evidence was there that Martin had a predisposition towards violence?

The twitter accounts of him swinging on a bus driver. Although not proven, it's pretty easy to see this when couple with the other stuff such as the women's jewelry (or do you really buy the story his friend gave him that stuff?)Again...it's my impression...some evidance but not proof. BUt we can say the same on Zimmerman's side. The evidance is stronger, but so is the evidance that his heart was in the right place.A wash.

You've got a ####ed up scale there.

Really? Zimmerman went out of his way to welcome and help his neighbors. Trayvon speaks like a punk on his twitter and fb page...including talking about doing drugs.We don't have to agree on the significance of the "evidance" on character for either party, but ignoring all negative evidance aginst Trayvon is flat wrong.

 

[TexanFan02]

What evidence was there that Martin had a predisposition towards violence?

The twitter accounts of him swinging on a bus driver. Although not proven, it's pretty easy to see this when couple with the other stuff such as the women's jewelry (or do you really buy the story his friend gave him that stuff?)Again...it's my impression...some evidance but not proof. BUt we can say the same on Zimmerman's side. The evidance is stronger, but so is the evidance that his heart was in the right place.A wash.

You've got a ####ed up scale there.

Really? Zimmerman went out of his way to welcome and help his neighbors. Trayvon speaks like a punk on his twitter and fb page...including talking about doing drugs.We don't have to agree on the significance of the "evidance" on character for either party, but ignoring all negative evidance aginst Trayvon is flat wrong.

Yeah, every teenager who says dumb thing on twitter deserves to die.

 

[timschochet]

Actually Zow, I find your explanation for #5 pretty convincing. If I had to guess, you're right about that. About your dismissal of the others, I'm not so sure. And we have to view all 5 questions in context. Apparently the black community of Sanford has had a long history of antipathy with the police department there, and believes that the police cannot be trusted. Some of that is expressed here:

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/29/us/florida-teen-shooting-sanford-divided/index.html

In the Goldsboro neighborhood, which is predominantly black, a large group of retirees sits under a live oak tree with lichen moss that shades them from the harsh sun. They sit not far from the now-boarded-up public housing projects. They too, want justice.At first, none of them wants to talk about Martin, because they don't think it will matter. Besides, they say, they already encounter enough trouble with police. They worry that if they give their names, police would come looking for them and start trouble.

But as they sit at a wooden picnic table and play cards and dice, they begin slowly to speak up. The group as a whole rattles off names of about 20 boys whose cases they say have been swept under the rug. Martin isn't the only one, they say. They talk about the frequent police patrols in the area, and then they begin shouting questions as a growing chorus chimes in.

"Why are the only signs for loitering and trespassing in our neighborhoods?" "Do you think this is the first time?" "Ain't nothing going to change here. This is how it is."

They've said their piece, but they insist that it won't matter, that nothing, even the spotlight of Martin's death, will change how they are viewed in this town.

 

[Zow]

Think Progress asks some pretty good questions, IMO:

1. What was the purported "conflict" that required the initial prosecutor to step down? On March 22 — after several weeks on the job — state attorney Norm Wolfinger stepped down from his role as prosecutor in the Trayvon Martin case. Wolfinger relinquished his post after meeting with Florida Gov. Rick Scott and Attorney General Pam Bondi. He said it was necessary for him to step aside to preserve "the integrity of this investigation," adding he wanted to avoid "the appearance of a conflict of interest." He did not explain why his continued involvement would damage the integrity of the case or explain the potential conflict he was seeking to avoid. Did anyone at the prosecutor's office know Zimmerman or his family? [Orlando Sentinel]



2. Why did the prosecutor ignore the recommendations of the lead homicide investigator? ABC News reported that Chris Serino, the lead homicide investigator on the Trayvon Martin case, recommended that Zimmerman be charged with manslaughter on the night of the shooting. Serino filed an affidavit that night stating "he was unconvinced Zimmerman's version of events." As the lead homicide investigator, Serino was: 1. In the best position to evaluate Zimmerman's credibility, and 2. Intimately familiar with Florida law. Why was he ignored? [ABC News]

3. Why did then-Police Chief Bill Lee make public statements directly contradicting the official recommendations of the police department? On the day the Sanford Police concluded their investigation and handed over the case to the prosecutor, then-Police Chief Bill Lee stated publicly that there was no "probable cause" to arrest or charge Zimmerman. (Lee has subsequently "temporarily" stepped down from his post.) But the Miami Herald reports that on the same day the Sanford Police formally requested that the prosecutor charge Zimmerman, something known as a "capias" request. [ThinkProgress]

4. Who leaked Trayvon Martin's school records? As public outrage increased, Zimmerman's sympathizers launched a smear campaign against Trayvon Martin. This included details of several occasions where Martin was suspended for minor infractions (defacing a locker, possessing an empty "marijuana baggie.") None of the information seemed to have any particular relevance to the night Trayvon Martin was shot to death. Was this a ham-handed attempt by the police or the prosecutor to defend their lack of action against Zimmerman? The Sanford City Manager announced he would launch an independent investigation into the source of the leak. [Miami Herald; NBC12]

5. Why was Trayvon Martin's body tagged as a John Doe? The Washington Post's Jonathan Capehart notes a police report "that was completed at 3:07 a.m. on Feb. 27 lists Trayvon's full name, city of birth, address and phone number." But yet, Trayvon's body was reportedly "tagged as a John Doe" and his father wasn't informed of his death until after he filed a missing person report later on the 27th. Why weren't Trayvon Martin's parents contacted immediately after the police confirmed his identity? [Washington Post]

Number 5 is interesting.

No, it's not.

Yes it is.

why?

Because they knew the identify of the victim and did not attempt to contact his family until after they had filed a missing persons report.

Question 5 states, "why did they tag the body as John Doe," not "Why didn't they contact the family right away. That question isn't interesting. I agree with you the question of "why didn't they contact the parents right away" is somewhat interesting because it seems like they should have been able to locate the parents pretty quickly - but that's a sub-question to number 5.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

but that does not make attacking him justified.

According to the law, it certainly can make it justified.According to good conscience, I would agree.

I'm quickly coming to believe you're insane

As I stated earlier in this thread, I bounced for many years.All of the damn time I had people released who struck/attacked someone first.And on some occasions Ive seen the person who was struck/attacked first arrested while the other person walked.It comes down to circumstances.And that is how it should have been, typically.

 

[renesauz]

Neither of their histories matter.

Of course their histories matter. In this case, the history of neither of them provides any definitive indication of capacity though, at least IMHO.Zimmerman was a hot head according to his history, capable of an irrational act in the heat of the moment. Trayvon was not a perfectly innocent kid who'd "never been in any trouble", as was first reported. The idea that he couldn't possibly have initiated the physical part of a conflict is ridiculous.

 

[Joe Summer]

Congressman says Republicans were selectively enforcing dress code when hoodies were banned from Capitol

Black congressman violates dress code = escorted out of the building

White congressman violates dress code = no big deal

“You see during late-night votes, people stand in the back with jeans and no jackets and no ties” Cleaver told Fox. Do you think that standing in the back of the room, off-camera, and not addressing Congress is the equivalent of taking the podium and addressing Congress while wearing a hoodie?

Does the dress code make exceptions for people who are off camera?

So...you really don't see/understand the distinction??????? You really think the US %$^%& congress is the proper forum for this kind of display during an ongoing investigation? REALLY??????

Calm down, Captain Outrage. I actually agree that the Congressman's speech was inappropriate. I just think it's hypocritical for Congress to narrowly define a rule, then selectively endorse that same rule, while loosely defining the same rule elsewhere.

 

[Yenrub]

I just wanted to add that Ms. Brown the mom of the 13 year old is very attractive

 

[Zow]

Actually Zow, I find your explanation for #5 pretty convincing. If I had to guess, you're right about that. About your dismissal of the others, I'm not so sure.

You're not sure that lawyers have ethical obligations to step down for personal conflicts?You're not sure that Bill James has less legal training than the prosecutor?You're not sure that the police followed the legal advice of the prosecutor's office and that's why they didn't arrest?You're not sure that publc school records are public records subject to FOIA? (I actually don't know this for certain, but I know of past cases where a non-government entity has gotten school records)I get what you're saying that all these things taking into an uneducated context may appear to look "bad," but what I'm telling you is that these questions have answers and I have provided them to you. And knowing their answers makes the context of the questions much less biting or suggestive of bias. They are coincidental and can easily be explained by law, reality, and general police practice.

 

[Zow]

Neither of their histories matter.

Of course their histories matter. In this case, the history of neither of them provides any definitive indication of capacity though, at least IMHO.Zimmerman was a hot head according to his history, capable of an irrational act in the heat of the moment. Trayvon was not a perfectly innocent kid who'd "never been in any trouble", as was first reported. The idea that he couldn't possibly have initiated the physical part of a conflict is ridiculous.

All completely irrelevant at a trial, if this court goes to trial.

 

[timschochet]

1. No matter what, Zimmerman's history matters.

2. Martin's history does not matter, unless you can prove that (a) Martin violently attacked Zimmerman as Zimmerman is claiming and (b) there are elements in Martin's history which are suggestive of this sort of violence.

So far, I don't think there's any evidence which proves 2 (a), though others disagree with me. There is certainly no evidence which proves 2 (b). And not only that, the "evidence" which HAS been produced is a slimy attack on the character of this kid- and yes it has racial overtones as well. It plays into the stereotype of the dangerous, gangsta black youth which people like Zimmerman (and presumably the rest of us) should be afraid of.

 

[renesauz]

Think Progress asks some pretty good questions, IMO:

1. What was the purported "conflict" that required the initial prosecutor to step down? On March 22 — after several weeks on the job — state attorney Norm Wolfinger stepped down from his role as prosecutor in the Trayvon Martin case. Wolfinger relinquished his post after meeting with Florida Gov. Rick Scott and Attorney General Pam Bondi. He said it was necessary for him to step aside to preserve "the integrity of this investigation," adding he wanted to avoid "the appearance of a conflict of interest." He did not explain why his continued involvement would damage the integrity of the case or explain the potential conflict he was seeking to avoid. Did anyone at the prosecutor's office know Zimmerman or his family? [Orlando Sentinel]



2. Why did the prosecutor ignore the recommendations of the lead homicide investigator? ABC News reported that Chris Serino, the lead homicide investigator on the Trayvon Martin case, recommended that Zimmerman be charged with manslaughter on the night of the shooting. Serino filed an affidavit that night stating "he was unconvinced Zimmerman's version of events." As the lead homicide investigator, Serino was: 1. In the best position to evaluate Zimmerman's credibility, and 2. Intimately familiar with Florida law. Why was he ignored? [ABC News]

3. Why did then-Police Chief Bill Lee make public statements directly contradicting the official recommendations of the police department? On the day the Sanford Police concluded their investigation and handed over the case to the prosecutor, then-Police Chief Bill Lee stated publicly that there was no "probable cause" to arrest or charge Zimmerman. (Lee has subsequently "temporarily" stepped down from his post.) But the Miami Herald reports that on the same day the Sanford Police formally requested that the prosecutor charge Zimmerman, something known as a "capias" request. [ThinkProgress]

4. Who leaked Trayvon Martin's school records? As public outrage increased, Zimmerman's sympathizers launched a smear campaign against Trayvon Martin. This included details of several occasions where Martin was suspended for minor infractions (defacing a locker, possessing an empty "marijuana baggie.") None of the information seemed to have any particular relevance to the night Trayvon Martin was shot to death. Was this a ham-handed attempt by the police or the prosecutor to defend their lack of action against Zimmerman? The Sanford City Manager announced he would launch an independent investigation into the source of the leak. [Miami Herald; NBC12]

5. Why was Trayvon Martin's body tagged as a John Doe? The Washington Post's Jonathan Capehart notes a police report "that was completed at 3:07 a.m. on Feb. 27 lists Trayvon's full name, city of birth, address and phone number." But yet, Trayvon's body was reportedly "tagged as a John Doe" and his father wasn't informed of his death until after he filed a missing person report later on the 27th. Why weren't Trayvon Martin's parents contacted immediately after the police confirmed his identity? [Washington Post]

Good questions all...but personally I'm grateful for #4. The full reported details of these incidents run 100% contrary to the earliest reports of the little angel who got shot. While there relevance is certainly extremely limited, they do show that Trayvon was certainly capable of backtracking and attacking Zimmerman. From the get-go, the press has made just as big a blunder of this case as the police, forcing a racially charged and biased account. I don't know how anybody can view this kids twitter and fb and call him a "good kid". His info shouldn't have been leaked, but I'm glad it was.

 

[timschochet]

Actually Zow, I find your explanation for #5 pretty convincing. If I had to guess, you're right about that. About your dismissal of the others, I'm not so sure.

You're not sure that lawyers have ethical obligations to step down for personal conflicts?You're not sure that Bill James has less legal training than the prosecutor?You're not sure that the police followed the legal advice of the prosecutor's office and that's why they didn't arrest?You're not sure that publc school records are public records subject to FOIA? (I actually don't know this for certain, but I know of past cases where a non-government entity has gotten school records)I get what you're saying that all these things taking into an uneducated context may appear to look "bad," but what I'm telling you is that these questions have answers and I have provided them to you. And knowing their answers makes the context of the questions much less biting or suggestive of bias. They are coincidental and can easily be explained by law, reality, and general police practice.

Great response. You've given me much food for thought. Thanks.

 

[Joe Summer]

the US %$^%& congress drug paraphenaliaAlthough not proven, it's pretty easy to see this when couple with the other stuff such as the women's jewelry"evidance" on charactersome evidance but not proof.The evidance is strongerbut so is the evidance

Trayvon speaks like a punk

 

[renesauz]

1. No matter what, Zimmerman's history matters.

2. Martin's history does not matter, unless you can prove that (a) Martin violently attacked Zimmerman as Zimmerman is claiming and (b) there are elements in Martin's history which are suggestive of this sort of violence.

So far, I don't think there's any evidence which proves 2 (a), though others disagree with me. There is certainly no evidence which proves 2 (b). And not only that, the "evidence" which HAS been produced is a slimy attack on the character of this kid- and yes it has racial overtones as well. It plays into the stereotype of the dangerous, gangsta black youth which people like Zimmerman (and presumably the rest of us) should be afraid of.

You're using a double standard here. Defacing school property, drug paraphenalia, highly suggestive evidance of theivery...these things suggest this kid was capable of commiting crimes....including attacking Zimmerman first. At best...their histories are a wash.

 

[jomar]

Trayvon speaks like a punk on his twitter and fb page...including talking about doing drugs.

GASP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[BigSteelThrill]

1. No matter what, Zimmerman's history matters.

2. Martin's history does not matter, unless you can prove that (a) Martin violently attacked Zimmerman as Zimmerman is claiming and (b) there are elements in Martin's history which are suggestive of this sort of violence.

So far, I don't think there's any evidence which proves 2 (a), though others disagree with me. There is certainly no evidence which proves 2 (b). And not only that, the "evidence" which HAS been produced is a slimy attack on the character of this kid- and yes it has racial overtones as well. It plays into the stereotype of the dangerous, gangsta black youth which people like Zimmerman (and presumably the rest of us) should be afraid of.

You're using a double standard here. Defacing school property, drug paraphenalia, highly suggestive evidance of theivery...these things suggest this kid was capable of commiting crimes....including attacking Zimmerman first.

Attacking first isn't necessarily a crime. ftr.

 

[renesauz]

lets just say hes acting out coming from a broken home and all, or maybe its that and hes hanging around with the wrong crew. He lives in an area where a 100 kids will gather in front of a walgreen`s and run in as a mob and steal whatever they want and run out. Does that sound like a place a kid can live and NOT get into some trouble? To say hes bad kid is pushing it. I was in trouble all the time growing up, and my probation officer said i was a good kid who made bad decisions. I know that what he said is true. Lets not try to disgrace a dead 17 yo kid to try to justify his death, its sad.

I agree 100%, and I'm in no way trying to justify his death. But it's equally ridiculous to ignore all these things and unequivaquibly say Trayvon did NOTHING, and was not even CAPABLE of doing anything, that could have escalated the events of that night, as was the case at the beginning. He was intially portrayed as an ANGEL who could not possible have done anything whatsoever to cause this event...and that's simply and quite patently false. At no point did I even begin to suggest he was a lost cause doomed to spend half his life in prison.

 

[BroadwayG]

1. No matter what, Zimmerman's history matters.

2. Martin's history does not matter, unless you can prove that (a) Martin violently attacked Zimmerman as Zimmerman is claiming and (b) there are elements in Martin's history which are suggestive of this sort of violence.

So far, I don't think there's any evidence which proves 2 (a), though others disagree with me. There is certainly no evidence which proves 2 (b). And not only that, the "evidence" which HAS been produced is a slimy attack on the character of this kid- and yes it has racial overtones as well. It plays into the stereotype of the dangerous, gangsta black youth which people like Zimmerman (and presumably the rest of us) should be afraid of.

You're using a double standard here. Defacing school property, drug paraphenalia, highly suggestive evidance of theivery...these things suggest this kid was capable of commiting crimes....including attacking Zimmerman first.

Attacking first isn't necessarily a crime. ftr.

Neither is following someone suspicious to make sure they don't burglarize a house or worse.

 

[Carver]

Trayvon speaks like a punk on his twitter and fb page...including talking about doing drugs.

GASP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good thing George got that ##### before he started robbing liquor stores and preying on white women. It was clearly only a matter of time.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

We cleared 100 no problem...

O/U on 200 pages? 300 pages?

Time frame?

Countdown to another Rodney King verdict?

Floridians start hiding everything

 

[jomar]

I'm in no way trying to justify his death. But it's equally ridiculous to ignore all these things

I wouldn't say those two things are equally ridiculous....

 

[Sinn Fein]

We cleared 100 no problem...

O/U on 200 pages? 300 pages?

Time frame?

Countdown to another Rodney King verdict?

Floridians start hiding everything

I have to say, I am surprised you and Timmy, of all people, don't have your settings set for 100 posts per page.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

1. No matter what, Zimmerman's history matters.

2. Martin's history does not matter, unless you can prove that (a) Martin violently attacked Zimmerman as Zimmerman is claiming and (b) there are elements in Martin's history which are suggestive of this sort of violence.

So far, I don't think there's any evidence which proves 2 (a), though others disagree with me. There is certainly no evidence which proves 2 (b). And not only that, the "evidence" which HAS been produced is a slimy attack on the character of this kid- and yes it has racial overtones as well. It plays into the stereotype of the dangerous, gangsta black youth which people like Zimmerman (and presumably the rest of us) should be afraid of.

You're using a double standard here. Defacing school property, drug paraphenalia, highly suggestive evidance of theivery...these things suggest this kid was capable of commiting crimes....including attacking Zimmerman first.

Attacking first isn't necessarily a crime. ftr.

Neither is following someone suspicious to make sure they don't burglarize a house or worse.

Correct, it is not necessarily a crime either.And certainly in a vacuum, it isn't.

 

[renesauz]

Attacking first isn't necessarily a crime. ftr.

Unless you have very good reason to expect the other person to attack you.....yes...actually, it is a crime. If Zimmerman lost Tayvon, and then Trayvon blindsided him....yes, that's a crime. Note that I used "If" ...we don't know what happened to start it...but Zimmerman following Marti is not enough all by itself, ESPECIALLY if he lost Martin and had given up the "chase."I think Zimm's an idiot and likely guilty...I'm just pointing out that his story, to this point, is plausible.

 

[TexanFan02]

1. No matter what, Zimmerman's history matters.

2. Martin's history does not matter, unless you can prove that (a) Martin violently attacked Zimmerman as Zimmerman is claiming and (b) there are elements in Martin's history which are suggestive of this sort of violence.

So far, I don't think there's any evidence which proves 2 (a), though others disagree with me. There is certainly no evidence which proves 2 (b). And not only that, the "evidence" which HAS been produced is a slimy attack on the character of this kid- and yes it has racial overtones as well. It plays into the stereotype of the dangerous, gangsta black youth which people like Zimmerman (and presumably the rest of us) should be afraid of.

You're using a double standard here. Defacing school property, drug paraphenalia, highly suggestive evidance of theivery...these things suggest this kid was capable of commiting crimes....including attacking Zimmerman first.

Attacking first isn't necessarily a crime. ftr.

Neither is following someone suspicious to make sure they don't burglarize a house or worse.

If you're going to follow and confront suspicious individuals, you'd better be prepared to defend yourself. And that doesn't mean shooting them.

 

[jomar]

1. No matter what, Zimmerman's history matters.

2. Martin's history does not matter, unless you can prove that (a) Martin violently attacked Zimmerman as Zimmerman is claiming and (b) there are elements in Martin's history which are suggestive of this sort of violence.

So far, I don't think there's any evidence which proves 2 (a), though others disagree with me. There is certainly no evidence which proves 2 (b). And not only that, the "evidence" which HAS been produced is a slimy attack on the character of this kid- and yes it has racial overtones as well. It plays into the stereotype of the dangerous, gangsta black youth which people like Zimmerman (and presumably the rest of us) should be afraid of.

You're using a double standard here. Defacing school property, drug paraphenalia, highly suggestive evidance of theivery...these things suggest this kid was capable of commiting crimes....including attacking Zimmerman first.

Attacking first isn't necessarily a crime. ftr.

Neither is following someone suspicious black males to make sure they don't burglarize a house or worse.

FYPGZ's calls to the police were listed earlier in this thread. you can see a pattern over the course of the last 9 months where something like 6 out of 8 calls were about suspicious black males, the other 2 calls were about a garage and a dog, I believe. strangely, no suspicious white males were ever called on.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Trayvon speaks like a punk on his twitter and fb page...including talking about doing drugs.

GASP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good thing George got that ##### before he started robbing liquor stores and preying on white women. It was clearly only a matter of time.

Wait, thats a new info that I wasn't privy to before. Now that someone has inferred that its part of the decision making process on this subject...Ive changed my position.

 

[renesauz]

Trayvon speaks like a punk on his twitter and fb page...including talking about doing drugs.

GASP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good thing George got that ##### before he started robbing liquor stores and preying on white women. It was clearly only a matter of time.

Oh for Gods sake...you folks are ridiculous sometimes. I said the kid wasn't an innocent and we shouldn't act like he was...I didn't say he was a career criminal with no hope of a future.

 

[Zow]

You guys are doing a wonderful job of illustrating why evidence rule 403 would keep their histories out of keep.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Attacking first isn't necessarily a crime. ftr.

Unless you have very good reason to expect the other person to attack you.....yes...actually, it is a crime. If Zimmerman lost Tayvon, and then Trayvon blindsided him....yes, that's a crime. Note that I used "If" ...we don't know what happened to start it...but Zimmerman following Marti is not enough all by itself, ESPECIALLY if he lost Martin and had given up the "chase."I think Zimm's an idiot and likely guilty...I'm just pointing out that his story, to this point, is plausible.

Yeah, exactly, that is were some of the "not necessarily" part comes into play.

 

[jomar]

Trayvon speaks like a punk on his twitter and fb page...including talking about doing drugs.

GASP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good thing George got that ##### before he started robbing liquor stores and preying on white women. It was clearly only a matter of time.

Oh for Gods sake...you folks are ridiculous sometimes. I said the kid wasn't an innocent and we shouldn't act like he was...I didn't say he was a career criminal with no hope of a future.

whoa, whoa, whoa.....

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Trayvon speaks like a punk on his twitter and fb page...including talking about doing drugs.

GASP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good thing George got that ##### before he started robbing liquor stores and preying on white women. It was clearly only a matter of time.

Oh for Gods sake...you folks are ridiculous sometimes. I said the kid wasn't an innocent and we shouldn't act like he was...I didn't say he was a career criminal with no hope of a future.

whoa, whoa, whoa.....

 

[Carver]

Trayvon speaks like a punk on his twitter and fb page...including talking about doing drugs.

GASP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good thing George got that ##### before he started robbing liquor stores and preying on white women. It was clearly only a matter of time.

Oh for Gods sake...you folks are ridiculous sometimes. I said the kid wasn't an innocent and we shouldn't act like he was...I didn't say he was a career criminal with no hope of a future.

oh relax. Im kidding.

 

[Carver]

Trayvon speaks like a punk on his twitter and fb page...including talking about doing drugs.

GASP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good thing George got that ##### before he started robbing liquor stores and preying on white women. It was clearly only a matter of time.

Oh for Gods sake...you folks are ridiculous sometimes. I said the kid wasn't an innocent and we shouldn't act like he was...I didn't say he was a career criminal with no hope of a future.

whoa, whoa, whoa.....

Keep this up and im gonna kick in some windows to loot some free subscriptions. DONT PUSH ME.

 

[identikit]

Trayvon speaks like a punk on his twitter and fb page...including talking about doing drugs.

GASP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good thing George got that ##### before he started robbing liquor stores and preying on white women. It was clearly only a matter of time.

Oh for Gods sake...you folks are ridiculous sometimes. I said the kid wasn't an innocent and we shouldn't act like he was...I didn't say he was a career criminal with no hope of a future.

whoa, whoa, whoa.....

Keep this up and im gonna kick in some windows to loot some free subscriptions. DONT PUSH ME.

 

[Vision6]

But Zimmerman's previous arrests for violent crimes don't seem to matter.

They matter. I argued before that a single incident didn't, especially when it was a dropped domestic violence charge...but there's more than one.Unfortunately...the ones on the kid matter too. Not only is the kid NOT squeaky clean, but there's at least anecdoctal evidance that he might have a predisposition towards violence also.

It's kind of a wash leaving us nowhere closer to the truth.

No, it's not really a wash. Having 2 violence related arrests (son of a judge not charged, go figure) is way different than a teen boy acting like a teen boy. I must've missed the anecdotal evidence of Martin's violent past, I assume you're not talking about playing football.

A teen boy stupid enough to have drug paraphenalia with him at school? to be videotaped vandalizing school property? to be carrying a bag full of wqomens jewelry and have ZERO explanation for where/how he got it? His twitter account reads like a gang-banger, and suggests he took a swing at his bus driver. This was NOT a good or innocent kid. He may have done nothing on the night in question, but his past suggests he ws certainly capable of having done something, despite the earlierst media reports depicting him as a saint. He was anything but.A wash...at best

This post is just sad. Really it's just sad that people think like this and worse yet they think they're in the right in doing so.I'm being serious, just read that a few times. It's this whole case in a nutshell.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

But Zimmerman's previous arrests for violent crimes don't seem to matter.

They matter. I argued before that a single incident didn't, especially when it was a dropped domestic violence charge...but there's more than one.Unfortunately...the ones on the kid matter too. Not only is the kid NOT squeaky clean, but there's at least anecdoctal evidance that he might have a predisposition towards violence also.

It's kind of a wash leaving us nowhere closer to the truth.

No, it's not really a wash. Having 2 violence related arrests (son of a judge not charged, go figure) is way different than a teen boy acting like a teen boy. I must've missed the anecdotal evidence of Martin's violent past, I assume you're not talking about playing football.

A teen boy stupid enough to have drug paraphenalia with him at school? to be videotaped vandalizing school property? to be carrying a bag full of wqomens jewelry and have ZERO explanation for where/how he got it? His twitter account reads like a gang-banger, and suggests he took a swing at his bus driver. This was NOT a good or innocent kid. He may have done nothing on the night in question, but his past suggests he ws certainly capable of having done something, despite the earlierst media reports depicting him as a saint. He was anything but.A wash...at best

This post is just sad. Really it's just sad that people think like this and worse yet they think they're in the right in doing so.I'm being serious, just read that a few times. It's this whole case in a nutshell.

And he called me insane.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

I just wanted to add that Ms. Brown the mom of the 13 year old is very attractive

I believe the correct term is smokin'. Apparently the name of the street Zimmerman was looking for is Wisteria Lane.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

Sanford Police threatened to arrest members of the media who approach or ask questions off the clock.

A press release sent out Wednesday said police would arrest journalists who attempt to make contact with city employees during non-working hours. They asked to not approach, call or email the city employees at home.

Some city staffers have been "followed or approached at their home or in settings outside of working hours," the release said.

"Law enforcement officials will not hesitate to make an arrest for stalking."

However, the Florida statute on stalking does not include language that would provide special protection to city officials or prevent media from asking questions.

Sanford police did not immediately return any calls Wednesday and Thursday morning.



wouldnt what zimmerman did the night in question be considered stalking when he was following trey? This police force is screwed up from top to bottom.

 

[omally]

A teen boy stupid enough to have drug paraphenalia with him at school?

When I was in high school, I bought drugs off a couple other students many times. I wasn't a thug or a bad kid.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

A teen boy stupid enough to have drug paraphenalia with him at school?

When I was in high school, I bought drugs off a couple other students many times. I wasn't a thug or a bad kid.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

A teen boy stupid enough to have drug paraphenalia with him at school?

When I was in high school, I bought drugs off a couple other students many times. I wasn't a thug or a bad kid.

Christ, my entire high school was high every single day, i think some of the teachers were also. We graffitied and vandelized and drank. Just like all normal kids.

 

[SacramentoBob]

Trayvon speaks like a punk on his twitter and fb page...including talking about doing drugs.

GASP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good thing George got that ##### before he started robbing liquor stores and preying on white women. It was clearly only a matter of time.

Oh for Gods sake...you folks are ridiculous sometimes. I said the kid wasn't an innocent and we shouldn't act like he was...I didn't say he was a career criminal with no hope of a future.

whoa, whoa, whoa.....

Keep this up and im gonna kick in some windows to loot some free subscriptions. DONT PUSH ME.

Combined with my sig, it's a slam dunk.

 

[SacramentoBob]

Need a link to a pic of the kid's mom.