Florida boy killed by Neighborhood Watch (2 Viewers)

[Schlzm]

This video should answer two questions I have now seen in this thread about Martin being shot.

1) A gunshot wound from a small caliber weapon doesn't cause a font of blood spray like the pit scene from Army of Darkness.

2) People do not go flying when shot by a small caliber weapon, physics prevents this from happening.

Caution! The following video shows a real person being shot and killed.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1065544192252125738

Schlzm

 

[Christo]

This video should answer two questions I have now seen in this thread about Martin being shot.1) A gunshot wound from a small caliber weapon doesn't cause a font of blood spray like the pit scene from Army of Darkness.2) People do not go flying when shot by a small caliber weapon, physics prevents this from happening.Caution! The following video shows a real person being shot and killed.http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1065544192252125738Schlzm

Not having shot anyone with a small caliber weapon at close range recently, this is exactly why I asked the question. Thanks.

 

[TobiasFunke]

don't you think George would have mentioned it in his phone call to the police if he was doing something other than just walking down the street? he didn't, so I think I'm safe by saying he wasn't doing anything other than just walking down the street. to argue that maybe he was doing more is asinine once you hear the call from Z.

Really? Do you have kids? Ever watch the way they stand, walk, move, talk when they've done something wrong vs. when they haven't? I have a very hard time buying that Zimmermman called for no reason other than "this kid is walking down the street". IN fact...listen again...he said the kid was acting strangely....not criminally, but strangely. I would want my neighborhood watch to take a minute or two to watch someone acting strangely, even if they were not at that moment acting criminally.

I have 3 boys and you have to kidding to think you can tell by watching them walk down the street if they've done something wrong.the other reason he called is that he was black and wearing a hoodie. and George couldn't think of any other possibilities why this guy was walking down the street other than he was up to no good.

if all he did was take a minute or two to watch him, there's no problem. but we all know that's not what George did so why go there? he called the cops, grabbed his gun, and left his car to follow. all because he was 'acting strangely'? this is what you want from your NW guy? I'll pass on that.

I think people are too easy to scream racism when there's actually justifiable reasons while he would be suspicious of black youths after there had been a rash of break-ins by black youths in the neighborhood. Then he sees a black kid walking slowly in the rain and checking out houses in a way that looked like he casing them. Anyone would have a right to be suspicious. As far as following and confronting him, I wouldn't want him in my neighborhood doing that but then again I wouldn't want to live in a neighborhood where such things are necessary.

I have heard numerous firsthand reports of black youths losing a lot of professional basketball games in the general vicinity of the Penn Quarter/Chinatown neighborhoods of Washington, DC. Next time I see a black youth in that area wearing athletic attire, I will wish him better luck this weekend against the Sixers and Raptors.



It is reasonable for me to make that assumption, yes? After all there's been a rash of black youths losing basketball games in that area. Don't call me a racist!

Only if they're over 6'6".

That's much more information than what you say was sufficient for our man Zimmerman to draw a conclusion that this visitor was suspicious. All he knew was black and wearing a hoodie and in the same neighborhood, right? So I should be OK approaching any black man wearing athletic attire and assuming he's a professional basketball player. "Cstu of the FFA says I'm not racist!"

 

[cstu]

This video should answer two questions I have now seen in this thread about Martin being shot.1) A gunshot wound from a small caliber weapon doesn't cause a font of blood spray like the pit scene from Army of Darkness.2) People do not go flying when shot by a small caliber weapon, physics prevents this from happening.Caution! The following video shows a real person being shot and killed.http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1065544192252125738Schlzm

Damn physics!

 

[TexanFan02]

Does it matter?

Let's say you're a 17 year old kid who has now been followed by a guy in a truck and the guy in the truck has now gotten out of his vehicle and chased you. Then, the guy (who you can now see is an adult - who, honestly does look a little intimidating) confronts you. Those are the facts as we know them.

What if the guy who has followed and chased you now grabs you and says to come with him (thinking in his head that he's going to take this punk to the address he gave the police on the phone call earlier to be arrested)? All I know at that age is that some dude wants to take me somewhere against my will and is now touching me. I'd be in fear of my life and would probably take a swing at the guy, too.

I agree...but your hypothesized version here is also unproven, and seems just as much or more of a stretch then the idea that Trayvon jumped him from behind.

let me get this straight. you think its more likely that Trayvon jumped Z from behind than Zimmerman tried to grab Trayvon to detain him? because thats what you wrote.you believe it more likely that Trayvon, a kid walking home doing nothing, who tried to evade Z at least once, would then double back and jump Z than it would be for Z, a guy who is on record as saying 'these #######s always get away', to try and grab Trayvon so that he would be there when the cops showed up?

thats ####### ridiculous. none of us know what happened, but to hear people say #### like that, it makes you wonder where they're coming from....

No....I think his entire version as a whole, taken in its entirety, is just as unlikely as (what has been reported as) Z's version.I don't for a second think the teen "jumped" Zimmerman, but I can't dismiss the possibility either. I think it likely the truth is somewhere in between.

I agree its possible Trayvon jumped Z, but just as likely? come on, dude.

It's just as likely as the full scenario where Z grabbed the kid and tried to physically detain him and drag him to where they could meet the cops. A scenario where Z surpised the kid and grabbed his arm saying "who are you" would be higher in probablity...sure.The most probable (IMO) is one where the kid doubled back to see what Z was up to, got too close and was noticed. Z says "who are you", teen says "f you, why you followin me?", Z says "who the F are you", and then teen swings first. Just as probable is one where Z decided to check one or to more spots around corners as he headed back to his truck and actually (re)found teen...then an exchange much like above occured.

That's why it's impossible to take you seriously.

 

[Carver]

Lets not forget that the GF has said that trey even mentioned that he a had a crazy looking white dude following him, so when all is said and done TREY was just as suspicious about zimmerman as zimmerman was about trey. Difference is zimmerman was acting on his his concerns (following) where trey wasnt.

Actually Martin did act on his concerns. He tried to run away from the weirdo.

 

[Christo]

Lets not forget that the GF has said that trey even mentioned that he a had a crazy looking white dude following him, so when all is said and done TREY was just as suspicious about zimmerman as zimmerman was about trey. Difference is zimmerman was acting on his his concerns (following) where trey wasnt.

Actually Martin did act on his concerns. He tried to run away from the weirdo.

That's what makes this situation even more tragic. It's possible that at different times during the time leading up to the struggle both made the choice to walk away.

 

[Chaos Commish]

Does it matter?

Let's say you're a 17 year old kid who has now been followed by a guy in a truck and the guy in the truck has now gotten out of his vehicle and chased you. Then, the guy (who you can now see is an adult - who, honestly does look a little intimidating) confronts you. Those are the facts as we know them.

What if the guy who has followed and chased you now grabs you and says to come with him (thinking in his head that he's going to take this punk to the address he gave the police on the phone call earlier to be arrested)? All I know at that age is that some dude wants to take me somewhere against my will and is now touching me. I'd be in fear of my life and would probably take a swing at the guy, too.

I agree...but your hypothesized version here is also unproven, and seems just as much or more of a stretch then the idea that Trayvon jumped him from behind.

let me get this straight. you think its more likely that Trayvon jumped Z from behind than Zimmerman tried to grab Trayvon to detain him? because thats what you wrote.you believe it more likely that Trayvon, a kid walking home doing nothing, who tried to evade Z at least once, would then double back and jump Z than it would be for Z, a guy who is on record as saying 'these #######s always get away', to try and grab Trayvon so that he would be there when the cops showed up?

thats ####### ridiculous. none of us know what happened, but to hear people say #### like that, it makes you wonder where they're coming from....

No....I think his entire version as a whole, taken in its entirety, is just as unlikely as (what has been reported as) Z's version.I don't for a second think the teen "jumped" Zimmerman, but I can't dismiss the possibility either. I think it likely the truth is somewhere in between.

I agree its possible Trayvon jumped Z, but just as likely? come on, dude.

It's just as likely as the full scenario where Z grabbed the kid and tried to physically detain him and drag him to where they could meet the cops. A scenario where Z surpised the kid and grabbed his arm saying "who are you" would be higher in probablity...sure.The most probable (IMO) is one where the kid doubled back to see what Z was up to, got too close and was noticed. Z says "who are you", teen says "f you, why you followin me?", Z says "who the F are you", and then teen swings first. Just as probable is one where Z decided to check one or to more spots around corners as he headed back to his truck and actually (re)found teen...then an exchange much like above occured.

That's why it's impossible to take you seriously.

Someone posted a list of the calls he had made. One of them was about a Black man delivering "suspicious packages" to residents. I think Fedex or Mailman is more likely than terrorist delivering anthrax.

 

[cstu]

Does it matter?

Let's say you're a 17 year old kid who has now been followed by a guy in a truck and the guy in the truck has now gotten out of his vehicle and chased you. Then, the guy (who you can now see is an adult - who, honestly does look a little intimidating) confronts you. Those are the facts as we know them.

What if the guy who has followed and chased you now grabs you and says to come with him (thinking in his head that he's going to take this punk to the address he gave the police on the phone call earlier to be arrested)? All I know at that age is that some dude wants to take me somewhere against my will and is now touching me. I'd be in fear of my life and would probably take a swing at the guy, too.

I agree...but your hypothesized version here is also unproven, and seems just as much or more of a stretch then the idea that Trayvon jumped him from behind.

let me get this straight. you think its more likely that Trayvon jumped Z from behind than Zimmerman tried to grab Trayvon to detain him? because thats what you wrote.you believe it more likely that Trayvon, a kid walking home doing nothing, who tried to evade Z at least once, would then double back and jump Z than it would be for Z, a guy who is on record as saying 'these #######s always get away', to try and grab Trayvon so that he would be there when the cops showed up?

thats ####### ridiculous. none of us know what happened, but to hear people say #### like that, it makes you wonder where they're coming from....

No....I think his entire version as a whole, taken in its entirety, is just as unlikely as (what has been reported as) Z's version.I don't for a second think the teen "jumped" Zimmerman, but I can't dismiss the possibility either. I think it likely the truth is somewhere in between.

I agree its possible Trayvon jumped Z, but just as likely? come on, dude.

It's just as likely as the full scenario where Z grabbed the kid and tried to physically detain him and drag him to where they could meet the cops. A scenario where Z surpised the kid and grabbed his arm saying "who are you" would be higher in probablity...sure.The most probable (IMO) is one where the kid doubled back to see what Z was up to, got too close and was noticed. Z says "who are you", teen says "f you, why you followin me?", Z says "who the F are you", and then teen swings first. Just as probable is one where Z decided to check one or to more spots around corners as he headed back to his truck and actually (re)found teen...then an exchange much like above occured.

That's why it's impossible to take you seriously.

Why is that? Zimmerman's call to the police has Trayvon running away and Zimmerman not knowing where he was for at least a minute that he was on the phone. Trayvon's GF claims she heard him ask Zimmerman 'what are you following me for' and Zimmerman replied 'what are you doing around here?". After that Trayvon's headset comes off, which she thinks is from Zimmerman pushing him but is more likely from Trayvon punching him.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

TEL = non-911 police number (answered by 911 dispatcher)

BM = black male

LSW = last seen wearing

46. Feb. 26, 2012 – 7:20 p.m.

Type: TEL

Subject: Suspicious activity

Report: Repeats prior report

45. Feb. 26, 2012 (night of Martin shooting) – 7:11 p.m.

Type: TEL

Subject: Suspicious activity

Report: Black male “late teens lsw dark gray hoodie jeans or sweatpants walking around area” … “subj now running towards back entrance of complex”

44. Feb. 2, 2012 – 8:29 p.m.

Type: TEL

Subject: Suspicious activity

Report: “BM lsw: black leather jacket, black hat, printed PJ pants, he keeps going going to this” location

43. Jan. 29, 2012 – 5:38 p.m.

Type: TEL

Subject: Disturbance

Report: Children “running and playing in the street”

42. Dec. 10, 2011 – 5:29 p.m.

Type: TEL

Subject: Disturbance

Report: “At the club house” … “Male subject [arrived on scene] that thought he was employed by” Zimmerman … “Subj is expected to get paid for serving food.” … Zimmerman “said that he didn’t wish him to serve at the [event]” … Zimmerman “hired someone else, subj sounded upset and wants to get paid”

41. Oct. 1, 2011 – 12:53 a.m.

Type: TEL

Subject: Suspicious activity

Report: Two black male suspects “20–30 YOA in [white] Chevy poss Impala at the gate of the community.” Zimmerman “does not recognize subjs or veh and is concerned due to recent” burglaries in the area

40. Sept. 23, 2011 – 11:08 p.m.

Type: TEL

Subject: Neighbor/Suspicious activity

Report: Zimmerman reports “open garage door” … Describes “neighborhood watch mtg last night with Sgt Herx who [advised] to report anything [suspicious]” … Zimmerman “is part of neighborhood watch” and is concerned because of recent burglaries in the area

39. Aug. 6, 2011 – 10:20 p.m.

Type: TEL

Subject: Suspicious activity

Report: Two black males, one wearing a black tank top and black shorts, the second wearing a black t-shirt and jeans … “Subjs are in their teens”

38. Aug. 3, 2011 – 6:45 p.m.

Type: TEL

Subject: Suspicious activity

Report: Black male last seen wearing a white tank top and black shorts … Zimmerman “believes subject is involved in recent” burglaries in the neighborhood

37. May 27, 2011 – 9:18 a.m.

Type: TEL

Subject: Alarm

Report: Zimmerman “has a self responding alarm that just notified him of” an alarm at this location

36. April 22, 2011 – 7:09 p.m.

Type: TEL

Subject: Suspicious activity

Report: Juvenile black male “apprx 7–9” years old, four feet tall “skinny build short blk hair” last seen wearing a blue t-shirt and blue shorts

35. March 18, 2011 – 9:26 p.m.

Type: 911

Subject: Animals

Report: Zimmerman requested an officer meet him regarding a pit bull in his garage

34. Nov. 26, 2010 – 2:54 a.m.

Type: TEL

Subject: Alarm

Report: Zimmerman was out of town and a motion alarm he monitors himself went off

33. Nov. 8, 2010 – 6:54 p.m.

Type: TEL

Subject: Maintenance

Report: Zimmerman reports “trash in roadwy”

32. Oct. 2, 2010 – 1:55 p.m.

Type: TEL

Subject: Disturbance

Report: Zimmerman reports “blu jeep grand Cherokee female driver yelling at elderly passengers … windows are tinted” … “the veh was rocking back and forth and he could hear the female yelling”

31. June 26, 2010 – 11:00 p.m.

Type: 911

Subject: Disturbance

Report: “Loud party … approx 50 subjs & blocking the street”

30. June 12, 2010 – 11:13 p.m.

Type: 911

Subject: Disturbance

Report: Subject “at the clubhouse & pool areas having a party”

29. April 28, 2010 – 9:02 p.m.

Type: TEL

Subject: Disturbance

Report: “White older model four-door Buick or Oldsmobile” obstructing road

28. Feb. 27, 2010 – 4:46 p.m.

Type: TEL

Subject: Suspicious activity

Report: “Residence w/a lot of [suspicious] activity” … “multiple vehs are constantly coming to the” location … “unk subs run out to the vehs and run back inside” … “the subjs are always outside w/the garage open” … “the subjs hang out towards the st all night//ongoing problem”

27. Jan. 12, 2010 – 10:25 p.m.

Type: TEL

Subject: Neighbor

Report: Open garage door … Zimmerman says “this is very unlike his neighbor” … “there is a lot of electronics in the resd and posb in the garage”

26. Jan. 1, 2010 – 4:34 a.m.

Type: 911

Subject: Disturbance

Report: Zimmerman reports reckless driver in “purplish Ford Ranger single cab”

25. Nov. 3, 2009 – 5:04 p.m.

Type: TEL

Subject: Disturbance

Report: White Ford F350 that was “cutting people off”

24. Nov. 21, 2009 – 2:26 p.m.

Type: 911

Subject: Unclear

23. Oct. 23, 2009 – 9:18 a.m.

Type: TEL

Subject: Animals

Report: “Aggressive white and brown pitbull” sitting outside Zimmerman’s home

22. Sept. 22, 2009 – 6:00 p.m.

Type: 911

Subject: Disturbance

Report: “Yellow speed bike … was speeding and weaving in and out of traffic and doing wheelies”

21. Sept. 7, 2009 – 9:01 p.m.

Type: TEL

Subject: Maintenance

Report: “Pot hole in the road” … “it is deep and can cause damage to vehicles”

20. Aug. 26, 2009  - 8:35 p.m.

Type: TEL

Subject: Suspicious activity

Report: “Gold Caprice … male driving with no headlights … speeding”

19. Aug. 21, 2009 – 6:57 p.m.

Type: TEL

Subject: Conflict

Report: “Landlord is trying to take [Zimmerman’s] money for rent … and home in foreclosure”

18. June 16, 2009 – 3:50 p.m.

Type: TEL

Subject: Disturbance

Report: Persons in the pool area playing basketball, “jumpin over the fence going into pool area and trashin the bathroom”

17. June 10, 2009 – 1:55 a.m.

Type: 911

Subject: Alarm

Report: Fire alarm going off

16. May 4, 2009 – 4:07 p.m.

Type: TEL

Subject: Suspicious activity

Report: Reports a blue Audi A4

15. March 12, 2009 – 6:58 p.m.

Type: TEL

Subject: Patrol

Report: Patrol request between March 13 and March 22

14. Jan. 5, 2009 – 10:53 p.m.

Type: 911

Subject: Alarm

Report: Fire alarm going off

13. Nov. 25, 2007 – 12:40 a.m.

Type: TEL

Subject: Disturbance

Report: “Ex roommate is letting people that [Zimmerman] don’t like in the” house

12. Nov. 25, 2007 – 12:21 a.m.

Type: 911

Subject: Disturbance

Report: White male ex-roommate last seen wearing a red Florida State University shirt

11. Oct. 14, 2007 – 4:10 p.m.

Type: TEL

Subject: Suspicious activity

Report: Possible criminal mischief to the tire of Zimmerman’s black Dodge Durango

10. June 24, 2007 – 12:48 a.m.

Type: TEL

Subject: Suspicious activity

Report: “By the pool”, two Hispanic males and one white male with “slim jim”

9. Nov. 4, 2006 – 2:37 a.m.

Type: TEL

Subject: Suspicious activity

Report: A call regarding a “late model red” Toyota pickup “driving around the neighborhood and apt complex for the past 5 min”

8. Sept. 23, 2005 – 7:03 p.m.

Type: 911

Subject: Suspicious activity

Report: Zimmerman’s “little sister just call him from above” his address and advises “there was a” suspicious person “at the front door”

7. Sept. 21, 2005 – 9:00 p.m.

Type: 911

Subject: Animals

Report: Reports a stray dog

6. April 27, 2005 – 12:40 a.m.

Type: 911

Subject: Neighbor

Report: Open garage door

5. March 17, 2005 – 7:21 p.m.

Type: 911

Subject: Maintenance

Report: Pothole “that is blocking the road”

4. Oct. 20, 2004 – 9:13 p.m.

Type: 911

Subject: Disturbance

Report: Drunk pedestrian walking in the road

3. Aug. 20, 2004 – 11:33 p.m.

Type: 911

Subject: Neighbor

Report: Reports an open garage door

2. Aug.12, 2004 – 10:03 a.m.

Type: 911

Subject: Suspicious activity

Report: Repeats earlier report

1. Aug. 12, 2004 – 9:59 a.m.

Type: 911

Subject: Suspicious activity

Report: Places a call reporting a male in a green Ford pickup

Wait, these are real? WTF.

BUMP for those interested

 

[BustedKnuckles]

Does it matter?

Let's say you're a 17 year old kid who has now been followed by a guy in a truck and the guy in the truck has now gotten out of his vehicle and chased you. Then, the guy (who you can now see is an adult - who, honestly does look a little intimidating) confronts you. Those are the facts as we know them.

What if the guy who has followed and chased you now grabs you and says to come with him (thinking in his head that he's going to take this punk to the address he gave the police on the phone call earlier to be arrested)? All I know at that age is that some dude wants to take me somewhere against my will and is now touching me. I'd be in fear of my life and would probably take a swing at the guy, too.

I agree...but your hypothesized version here is also unproven, and seems just as much or more of a stretch then the idea that Trayvon jumped him from behind.

let me get this straight. you think its more likely that Trayvon jumped Z from behind than Zimmerman tried to grab Trayvon to detain him? because thats what you wrote.you believe it more likely that Trayvon, a kid walking home doing nothing, who tried to evade Z at least once, would then double back and jump Z than it would be for Z, a guy who is on record as saying 'these #######s always get away', to try and grab Trayvon so that he would be there when the cops showed up?

thats ####### ridiculous. none of us know what happened, but to hear people say #### like that, it makes you wonder where they're coming from....

No....I think his entire version as a whole, taken in its entirety, is just as unlikely as (what has been reported as) Z's version.I don't for a second think the teen "jumped" Zimmerman, but I can't dismiss the possibility either. I think it likely the truth is somewhere in between.

I agree its possible Trayvon jumped Z, but just as likely? come on, dude.

It's just as likely as the full scenario where Z grabbed the kid and tried to physically detain him and drag him to where they could meet the cops. A scenario where Z surpised the kid and grabbed his arm saying "who are you" would be higher in probablity...sure.The most probable (IMO) is one where the kid doubled back to see what Z was up to, got too close and was noticed. Z says "who are you", teen says "f you, why you followin me?", Z says "who the F are you", and then teen swings first. Just as probable is one where Z decided to check one or to more spots around corners as he headed back to his truck and actually (re)found teen...then an exchange much like above occured.

That's why it's impossible to take you seriously.

Why is that? Zimmerman's call to the police has Trayvon running away and Zimmerman not knowing where he was for at least a minute that he was on the phone. Trayvon's GF claims she heard him ask Zimmerman 'what are you following me for' and Zimmerman replied 'what are you doing around here?". After that Trayvon's headset comes off, which she thinks is from Zimmerman pushing him but is more likely from Trayvon punching him.

OR...zimmerman pushing trey and trey then punching zimmerman in self defense

 

[Sinn Fein]

Does it matter?

Let's say you're a 17 year old kid who has now been followed by a guy in a truck and the guy in the truck has now gotten out of his vehicle and chased you. Then, the guy (who you can now see is an adult - who, honestly does look a little intimidating) confronts you. Those are the facts as we know them.

What if the guy who has followed and chased you now grabs you and says to come with him (thinking in his head that he's going to take this punk to the address he gave the police on the phone call earlier to be arrested)? All I know at that age is that some dude wants to take me somewhere against my will and is now touching me. I'd be in fear of my life and would probably take a swing at the guy, too.

I agree...but your hypothesized version here is also unproven, and seems just as much or more of a stretch then the idea that Trayvon jumped him from behind.

let me get this straight. you think its more likely that Trayvon jumped Z from behind than Zimmerman tried to grab Trayvon to detain him? because thats what you wrote.you believe it more likely that Trayvon, a kid walking home doing nothing, who tried to evade Z at least once, would then double back and jump Z than it would be for Z, a guy who is on record as saying 'these #######s always get away', to try and grab Trayvon so that he would be there when the cops showed up?

thats ####### ridiculous. none of us know what happened, but to hear people say #### like that, it makes you wonder where they're coming from....

No....I think his entire version as a whole, taken in its entirety, is just as unlikely as (what has been reported as) Z's version.I don't for a second think the teen "jumped" Zimmerman, but I can't dismiss the possibility either. I think it likely the truth is somewhere in between.

I agree its possible Trayvon jumped Z, but just as likely? come on, dude.

It's just as likely as the full scenario where Z grabbed the kid and tried to physically detain him and drag him to where they could meet the cops. A scenario where Z surpised the kid and grabbed his arm saying "who are you" would be higher in probablity...sure.The most probable (IMO) is one where the kid doubled back to see what Z was up to, got too close and was noticed. Z says "who are you", teen says "f you, why you followin me?", Z says "who the F are you", and then teen swings first. Just as probable is one where Z decided to check one or to more spots around corners as he headed back to his truck and actually (re)found teen...then an exchange much like above occured.

That's what I find most probable as well.

For me, the more probable scenario, given what we think we know about the actors, their motivations, and the time line of events, is that Zimmerman ran into Martin - does not really matter how they came into contact, but I think the likely scenario has Zimmerman continuing to follow Martin to make sure he is caught when the police arrive (he gave the police his cell number to call when they arrived, so I think it is unlikely that he intended to go back to, or stay, in his truck.) I would expect Zimmerman made some sort of accusation, and warning that the police had been called. I think this would have made Martin angry, and very defensive, and potentially aggressive.

From here, I can see a couple of scenarios - one, Zimmerman makes an attempt to detain Martin for the police. Or, two, Martin takes a swing at Zimmerman for accusing him of being a burglar. Either way, I think any "fight" was started by Martin. I think Martin is the better fighter and gets the upper hand, until Zimmerman pulls the gun.

The biggest question for me, is what happened after the gun was pulled. Did Zimmerman have an opportunity to display the weapon, or did he just fire from the hip? Given that Martin was unarmed, I doubt that he would have continued a physical altercation in the face of a guy pointing a gun at him. If I had to guess right now, I'd say Zimmerman pulled and shot without giving Martin a warning. But, if there is evidence to show that Martin was the one screaming for help prior to the shot - I would not hesitate to convict Zimmerman, as firing an unnecessary shot.

 

[parasaurolophus]

A 200+ lb 27 year old guy felt his life was endangered by a 140lb unarmed kid. How ridiculous, even if he was getting punched he was never in any danger of being injured badly.

He was a neighborhood watch wanna be cop guy looking for trouble and the opportunity to use his gun.

I hope he ends up 6 feet under.

28 year old sub 200 pound man felt threatened by a 6 foot 160 pound 17 year old. Not that it matters to you. You have made up your mind and will likely reply that it still didn't matter.Did you miss the link where I posted how the girl killed somebody with one punch? How bout the other links where other people were killed by a few punches?

It is fine to have the opinion that he shouldn't have been carrying a gun or put himself in that situation or even that you don't believe him at all. It is a whole different story to claim that you think there was no danger using false size statements and then not retract your statement when you learn the true size difference.

Why does this matter? Do you think most people, when they get into a fight (or get punched), think, "my life is in danger...that one little girl was killed in Long Beach by a punch...?" I don't.

Reading comprehension down?The girl didn't die. She was the killer. She punched a man in Illinois, once. He died.

Nope. Didn't read that story. I was referring to the incident where a little girl was killed by another little girl in Long Beach, California, in a fight with no weapons that lasted about a minute.Regardless, what does that matter? Unless you think most people will think about either story while in a fight or believe they are going to be killed by being in a fight, it doesn't matter.

They don't need to think about either story. If they are thinking about the blows that are hitting them in the face, stomach, chest, etc that is sufficient. The point of either story is to squash the neanderthal excuses being made that being in a fight is no big deal. Sorry but that is an idictment of character, and I am not talking about Zimmerman's. Being on top of somebody punching them is simply not acceptable behavior. If it did happen (which we honestly don't know) it is not something to be brushed off as no big deal. Martin was not a tiny child. He was not an innocent angel. It sounds like he was a punk kid. It sounds like Zimmerman had some issues himself. As is usual with most things in life we are not hearing the whole story.

The thing I care most about is whether or not what happened was lawful. I don't know either of these people or families. I feel bad that the parents lost a child. I care more about the legal process in our country. I think the media did a terrible job with this case from the get go. I think they had an agenda and they pushed it. They don't care about justice. I think the people calling for Zimmerman's head from day one had their own agenda.

I don't understand the people crying that he should have been arrested right away no matter what and let the courts decide. That is not the process, nor should it be. The same people calling for this are the same people that are bringing up Zimmerman's past arrest record. Anybody see the paradox there?

If they take their time, charge him, convict him. That will sit just fine with me.

 

[ATC1]

He has made calls about suspicious whites

you may be right but do you have a link for this claim?

There was a long list of reports he has made that is somewhere in this thread. Some said Black males, others said person or just male/female, Some about cars with tinted windows or speeding, some about open garage doors. However, one in particular I remember was about two Hispanic men and one white guy by the pool eating a Slim Jim.

 

[bakes]

I'm sure this has been covered in the 100 + pages here, but if some drunk frat guy starts a fight with you in a Florida bar can you kill him legally?

Better than that - you can pick a fight with a drunken frat guy and, if he starts beating the hell out of you and you feel that your life is in danger, you can kill him legally, unless I'm reading it wrong (possible, my headcold is screaming at me). Here's the statute (taken from Wikipedia):

776.041 Use of force by aggressor. —The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

 

[timschochet]

So- you're getting knocked around on wet grass, struggling for your gun, gasping for air as your head is getting slammed down, but there's no grass stains whatsoever on your jacket, shirt, pants. You're right Christo I'm no botanist.

 

[ATC1]

Does it matter?

Let's say you're a 17 year old kid who has now been followed by a guy in a truck and the guy in the truck has now gotten out of his vehicle and chased you. Then, the guy (who you can now see is an adult - who, honestly does look a little intimidating) confronts you. Those are the facts as we know them.

What if the guy who has followed and chased you now grabs you and says to come with him (thinking in his head that he's going to take this punk to the address he gave the police on the phone call earlier to be arrested)? All I know at that age is that some dude wants to take me somewhere against my will and is now touching me. I'd be in fear of my life and would probably take a swing at the guy, too.

I agree...but your hypothesized version here is also unproven, and seems just as much or more of a stretch then the idea that Trayvon jumped him from behind.

let me get this straight. you think its more likely that Trayvon jumped Z from behind than Zimmerman tried to grab Trayvon to detain him? because thats what you wrote.you believe it more likely that Trayvon, a kid walking home doing nothing, who tried to evade Z at least once, would then double back and jump Z than it would be for Z, a guy who is on record as saying 'these #######s always get away', to try and grab Trayvon so that he would be there when the cops showed up?

thats ####### ridiculous. none of us know what happened, but to hear people say #### like that, it makes you wonder where they're coming from....

No....I think his entire version as a whole, taken in its entirety, is just as unlikely as (what has been reported as) Z's version.I don't for a second think the teen "jumped" Zimmerman, but I can't dismiss the possibility either. I think it likely the truth is somewhere in between.

I agree its possible Trayvon jumped Z, but just as likely? come on, dude.

It's just as likely as the full scenario where Z grabbed the kid and tried to physically detain him and drag him to where they could meet the cops. A scenario where Z surpised the kid and grabbed his arm saying "who are you" would be higher in probablity...sure.The most probable (IMO) is one where the kid doubled back to see what Z was up to, got too close and was noticed. Z says "who are you", teen says "f you, why you followin me?", Z says "who the F are you", and then teen swings first. Just as probable is one where Z decided to check one or to more spots around corners as he headed back to his truck and actually (re)found teen...then an exchange much like above occured.

That's what I find most probable as well.

For me, the more probable scenario, given what we think we know about the actors, their motivations, and the time line of events, is that Zimmerman ran into Martin - does not really matter how they came into contact, but I think the likely scenario has Zimmerman continuing to follow Martin to make sure he is caught when the police arrive (he gave the police his cell number to call when they arrived, so I think it is unlikely that he intended to go back to, or stay, in his truck.) I would expect Zimmerman made some sort of accusation, and warning that the police had been called. I think this would have made Martin angry, and very defensive, and potentially aggressive.

From here, I can see a couple of scenarios - one, Zimmerman makes an attempt to detain Martin for the police. Or, two, Martin takes a swing at Zimmerman for accusing him of being a burglar. Either way, I think any "fight" was started by Martin. I think Martin is the better fighter and gets the upper hand, until Zimmerman pulls the gun.

The biggest question for me, is what happened after the gun was pulled. Did Zimmerman have an opportunity to display the weapon, or did he just fire from the hip? Given that Martin was unarmed, I doubt that he would have continued a physical altercation in the face of a guy pointing a gun at him. If I had to guess right now, I'd say Zimmerman pulled and shot without giving Martin a warning. But, if there is evidence to show that Martin was the one screaming for help prior to the shot - I would not hesitate to convict Zimmerman, as firing an unnecessary shot.

I agree with the last paragraph. However, What if while on top of Zimmerman, Martin sees Zimmerman go for the gun and there is a struggle for possession.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

He has made calls about suspicious whites

you may be right but do you have a link for this claim?

There was a long list of reports he has made that is somewhere in this thread. Some said Black males, others said person or just male/female, Some about cars with tinted windows or speeding, some about open garage doors. However, one in particular I remember was about two Hispanic men and one white guy by the pool eating a Slim Jim.

Its at the top of this very page ...i bumped it

 

[GDogg]

Does it matter?

Let's say you're a 17 year old kid who has now been followed by a guy in a truck and the guy in the truck has now gotten out of his vehicle and chased you. Then, the guy (who you can now see is an adult - who, honestly does look a little intimidating) confronts you. Those are the facts as we know them.

What if the guy who has followed and chased you now grabs you and says to come with him (thinking in his head that he's going to take this punk to the address he gave the police on the phone call earlier to be arrested)? All I know at that age is that some dude wants to take me somewhere against my will and is now touching me. I'd be in fear of my life and would probably take a swing at the guy, too.

I agree...but your hypothesized version here is also unproven, and seems just as much or more of a stretch then the idea that Trayvon jumped him from behind.

let me get this straight. you think its more likely that Trayvon jumped Z from behind than Zimmerman tried to grab Trayvon to detain him? because thats what you wrote.you believe it more likely that Trayvon, a kid walking home doing nothing, who tried to evade Z at least once, would then double back and jump Z than it would be for Z, a guy who is on record as saying 'these #######s always get away', to try and grab Trayvon so that he would be there when the cops showed up?

thats ####### ridiculous. none of us know what happened, but to hear people say #### like that, it makes you wonder where they're coming from....

No....I think his entire version as a whole, taken in its entirety, is just as unlikely as (what has been reported as) Z's version.I don't for a second think the teen "jumped" Zimmerman, but I can't dismiss the possibility either. I think it likely the truth is somewhere in between.

I agree its possible Trayvon jumped Z, but just as likely? come on, dude.

It's just as likely as the full scenario where Z grabbed the kid and tried to physically detain him and drag him to where they could meet the cops. A scenario where Z surpised the kid and grabbed his arm saying "who are you" would be higher in probablity...sure.The most probable (IMO) is one where the kid doubled back to see what Z was up to, got too close and was noticed. Z says "who are you", teen says "f you, why you followin me?", Z says "who the F are you", and then teen swings first. Just as probable is one where Z decided to check one or to more spots around corners as he headed back to his truck and actually (re)found teen...then an exchange much like above occured.

That's why it's impossible to take you seriously.

Why is that? Zimmerman's call to the police has Trayvon running away and Zimmerman not knowing where he was for at least a minute that he was on the phone. Trayvon's GF claims she heard him ask Zimmerman 'what are you following me for' and Zimmerman replied 'what are you doing around here?". After that Trayvon's headset comes off, which she thinks is from Zimmerman pushing him but is more likely from Trayvon punching him.

I'm with you up to that point. Why is that "more likely?"

 

[ATC1]

So- you're getting knocked around on wet grass, struggling for your gun, gasping for air as your head is getting slammed down, but there's no grass stains whatsoever on your jacket, shirt, pants. You're right Christo I'm no botanist.

Tim it was reported his back was wet and there was grass on the back of his shirt. This means he was on his back on the ground. What difference does it make if there are stains?

 

[TexanFan02]

A 200+ lb 27 year old guy felt his life was endangered by a 140lb unarmed kid. How ridiculous, even if he was getting punched he was never in any danger of being injured badly.

He was a neighborhood watch wanna be cop guy looking for trouble and the opportunity to use his gun.

I hope he ends up 6 feet under.

28 year old sub 200 pound man felt threatened by a 6 foot 160 pound 17 year old. Not that it matters to you. You have made up your mind and will likely reply that it still didn't matter.Did you miss the link where I posted how the girl killed somebody with one punch? How bout the other links where other people were killed by a few punches?

It is fine to have the opinion that he shouldn't have been carrying a gun or put himself in that situation or even that you don't believe him at all. It is a whole different story to claim that you think there was no danger using false size statements and then not retract your statement when you learn the true size difference.

Why does this matter? Do you think most people, when they get into a fight (or get punched), think, "my life is in danger...that one little girl was killed in Long Beach by a punch...?" I don't.

Reading comprehension down?The girl didn't die. She was the killer. She punched a man in Illinois, once. He died.

Nope. Didn't read that story. I was referring to the incident where a little girl was killed by another little girl in Long Beach, California, in a fight with no weapons that lasted about a minute.Regardless, what does that matter? Unless you think most people will think about either story while in a fight or believe they are going to be killed by being in a fight, it doesn't matter.

They don't need to think about either story. If they are thinking about the blows that are hitting them in the face, stomach, chest, etc that is sufficient. The point of either story is to squash the neanderthal excuses being made that being in a fight is no big deal. Sorry but that is an idictment of character, and I am not talking about Zimmerman's. Being on top of somebody punching them is simply not acceptable behavior. If it did happen (which we honestly don't know) it is not something to be brushed off as no big deal. Martin was not a tiny child. He was not an innocent angel. It sounds like he was a punk kid. It sounds like Zimmerman had some issues himself. As is usual with most things in life we are not hearing the whole story.

The thing I care most about is whether or not what happened was lawful. I don't know either of these people or families. I feel bad that the parents lost a child. I care more about the legal process in our country. I think the media did a terrible job with this case from the get go. I think they had an agenda and they pushed it. They don't care about justice. I think the people calling for Zimmerman's head from day one had their own agenda.

I don't understand the people crying that he should have been arrested right away no matter what and let the courts decide. That is not the process, nor should it be. The same people calling for this are the same people that are bringing up Zimmerman's past arrest record. Anybody see the paradox there?

If they take their time, charge him, convict him. That will sit just fine with me.

Generally, when you kill someone, you're going to get arrested.

 

[timschochet]

So- you're getting knocked around on wet grass, struggling for your gun, gasping for air as your head is getting slammed down, but there's no grass stains whatsoever on your jacket, shirt, pants. You're right Christo I'm no botanist.

Tim it was reported his back was wet and there was grass on the back of his shirt. This means he was on his back on the ground. What difference does it make if there are stains?

That's my whole point. On the video there are no signs of any of this. You would think that if his shirt had wet grass on it there would be some staining. Yet another reason to believe that Zimmermans story is total BS- to us non- botanists anyhow

 

[TexanFan02]

I'm sure this has been covered in the 100 + pages here, but if some drunk frat guy starts a fight with you in a Florida bar can you kill him legally?

Better than that - you can pick a fight with a drunken frat guy and, if he starts beating the hell out of you and you feel that your life is in danger, you can kill him legally, unless I'm reading it wrong (possible, my headcold is screaming at me). Here's the statute (taken from Wikipedia):

776.041 Use of force by aggressor. —The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

Better than that, you can gun a rival gang member down in the street and be totally innocent.

 

[GDogg]

A 200+ lb 27 year old guy felt his life was endangered by a 140lb unarmed kid. How ridiculous, even if he was getting punched he was never in any danger of being injured badly.

He was a neighborhood watch wanna be cop guy looking for trouble and the opportunity to use his gun.

I hope he ends up 6 feet under.

28 year old sub 200 pound man felt threatened by a 6 foot 160 pound 17 year old. Not that it matters to you. You have made up your mind and will likely reply that it still didn't matter.Did you miss the link where I posted how the girl killed somebody with one punch? How bout the other links where other people were killed by a few punches?

It is fine to have the opinion that he shouldn't have been carrying a gun or put himself in that situation or even that you don't believe him at all. It is a whole different story to claim that you think there was no danger using false size statements and then not retract your statement when you learn the true size difference.

Why does this matter? Do you think most people, when they get into a fight (or get punched), think, "my life is in danger...that one little girl was killed in Long Beach by a punch...?" I don't.

Reading comprehension down?The girl didn't die. She was the killer. She punched a man in Illinois, once. He died.

Nope. Didn't read that story. I was referring to the incident where a little girl was killed by another little girl in Long Beach, California, in a fight with no weapons that lasted about a minute.Regardless, what does that matter? Unless you think most people will think about either story while in a fight or believe they are going to be killed by being in a fight, it doesn't matter.

They don't need to think about either story. If they are thinking about the blows that are hitting them in the face, stomach, chest, etc that is sufficient. The point of either story is to squash the neanderthal excuses being made that being in a fight is no big deal. Sorry but that is an idictment of character, and I am not talking about Zimmerman's. Being on top of somebody punching them is simply not acceptable behavior. If it did happen (which we honestly don't know) it is not something to be brushed off as no big deal. Martin was not a tiny child. He was not an innocent angel. It sounds like he was a punk kid. It sounds like Zimmerman had some issues himself. As is usual with most things in life we are not hearing the whole story.

The thing I care most about is whether or not what happened was lawful. I don't know either of these people or families. I feel bad that the parents lost a child. I care more about the legal process in our country. I think the media did a terrible job with this case from the get go. I think they had an agenda and they pushed it. They don't care about justice. I think the people calling for Zimmerman's head from day one had their own agenda.

I don't understand the people crying that he should have been arrested right away no matter what and let the courts decide. That is not the process, nor should it be. The same people calling for this are the same people that are bringing up Zimmerman's past arrest record. Anybody see the paradox there?

If they take their time, charge him, convict him. That will sit just fine with me.

No, it's not. Being in a fight is an indictment of character? If you truly think that, then literally every person I grew up with and am still friends with to this day has poor character, according to you, including me. And, I would love to have grown up in the world you apparently did. I've been in several fights, and probably started a couple that I shouldn't have. Most other times, I did not start them. And, I'm no fighter. Stuff happens in life.

I don't know if Trayvon is an innocent angel. I THINK I know that Trayvon was innocent of any wrongdoing up to the point that Zimmerman inserted himself into Trayvon's life.

Being on top of someone and punching them could be lots of things. It could be some guy beating the crap out of a defenseless person for no reason. Or, it could be someone who was the victim of a battery defending himself or herself or it could be something completely different. It is not, necessarily, an indictment of character and could absolutely be "acceptable behavior."

How does it sound like Martin was a "punk kid?" I don't know anything about him other than the few things that have been put out in the media. Of those things, it sounds to me like Martin is a pretty average 17 year old.

And, I'm a little surprised by your comments that you care more about the legal process than the death (or life) of a minor. I say this as someone who is in the legal system. I don't care more about the legal process in our country than I do about the life of a human being.

Those are some cold-blooded words, parasaurolophus.

 

[Schlzm]

He has made calls about suspicious whites

you may be right but do you have a link for this claim?

There was a long list of reports he has made that is somewhere in this thread. Some said Black males, others said person or just male/female, Some about cars with tinted windows or speeding, some about open garage doors. However, one in particular I remember was about two Hispanic men and one white guy by the pool eating a Slim Jim.

Not sure if you are being serious or not but;Slim Jim vs Slimjim

There is way too much misunderstanding / characterization in this thread.

Schlzm

 

[renesauz]

A 200+ lb 27 year old guy felt his life was endangered by a 140lb unarmed kid. How ridiculous, even if he was getting punched he was never in any danger of being injured badly.

He was a neighborhood watch wanna be cop guy looking for trouble and the opportunity to use his gun.

I hope he ends up 6 feet under.

28 year old sub 200 pound man felt threatened by a 6 foot 160 pound 17 year old. Not that it matters to you. You have made up your mind and will likely reply that it still didn't matter.Did you miss the link where I posted how the girl killed somebody with one punch? How bout the other links where other people were killed by a few punches?

It is fine to have the opinion that he shouldn't have been carrying a gun or put himself in that situation or even that you don't believe him at all. It is a whole different story to claim that you think there was no danger using false size statements and then not retract your statement when you learn the true size difference.

Why does this matter? Do you think most people, when they get into a fight (or get punched), think, "my life is in danger...that one little girl was killed in Long Beach by a punch...?" I don't.

Reading comprehension down?The girl didn't die. She was the killer. She punched a man in Illinois, once. He died.

Nope. Didn't read that story. I was referring to the incident where a little girl was killed by another little girl in Long Beach, California, in a fight with no weapons that lasted about a minute.Regardless, what does that matter? Unless you think most people will think about either story while in a fight or believe they are going to be killed by being in a fight, it doesn't matter.

They don't need to think about either story. If they are thinking about the blows that are hitting them in the face, stomach, chest, etc that is sufficient. The point of either story is to squash the neanderthal excuses being made that being in a fight is no big deal. Sorry but that is an idictment of character, and I am not talking about Zimmerman's. Being on top of somebody punching them is simply not acceptable behavior. If it did happen (which we honestly don't know) it is not something to be brushed off as no big deal. Martin was not a tiny child. He was not an innocent angel. It sounds like he was a punk kid. It sounds like Zimmerman had some issues himself. As is usual with most things in life we are not hearing the whole story.

The thing I care most about is whether or not what happened was lawful. I don't know either of these people or families. I feel bad that the parents lost a child. I care more about the legal process in our country. I think the media did a terrible job with this case from the get go. I think they had an agenda and they pushed it. They don't care about justice. I think the people calling for Zimmerman's head from day one had their own agenda.

I don't understand the people crying that he should have been arrested right away no matter what and let the courts decide. That is not the process, nor should it be. The same people calling for this are the same people that are bringing up Zimmerman's past arrest record. Anybody see the paradox there?

If they take their time, charge him, convict him. That will sit just fine with me.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

A 200+ lb 27 year old guy felt his life was endangered by a 140lb unarmed kid. How ridiculous, even if he was getting punched he was never in any danger of being injured badly.

He was a neighborhood watch wanna be cop guy looking for trouble and the opportunity to use his gun.

I hope he ends up 6 feet under.

28 year old sub 200 pound man felt threatened by a 6 foot 160 pound 17 year old. Not that it matters to you. You have made up your mind and will likely reply that it still didn't matter.Did you miss the link where I posted how the girl killed somebody with one punch? How bout the other links where other people were killed by a few punches?

It is fine to have the opinion that he shouldn't have been carrying a gun or put himself in that situation or even that you don't believe him at all. It is a whole different story to claim that you think there was no danger using false size statements and then not retract your statement when you learn the true size difference.

Why does this matter? Do you think most people, when they get into a fight (or get punched), think, "my life is in danger...that one little girl was killed in Long Beach by a punch...?" I don't.

Reading comprehension down?The girl didn't die. She was the killer. She punched a man in Illinois, once. He died.

Nope. Didn't read that story. I was referring to the incident where a little girl was killed by another little girl in Long Beach, California, in a fight with no weapons that lasted about a minute.Regardless, what does that matter? Unless you think most people will think about either story while in a fight or believe they are going to be killed by being in a fight, it doesn't matter.

They don't need to think about either story. If they are thinking about the blows that are hitting them in the face, stomach, chest, etc that is sufficient. The point of either story is to squash the neanderthal excuses being made that being in a fight is no big deal. Sorry but that is an idictment of character, and I am not talking about Zimmerman's. Being on top of somebody punching them is simply not acceptable behavior. If it did happen (which we honestly don't know) it is not something to be brushed off as no big deal. Martin was not a tiny child. He was not an innocent angel. It sounds like he was a punk kid. It sounds like Zimmerman had some issues himself. As is usual with most things in life we are not hearing the whole story.

The thing I care most about is whether or not what happened was lawful. I don't know either of these people or families. I feel bad that the parents lost a child. I care more about the legal process in our country. I think the media did a terrible job with this case from the get go. I think they had an agenda and they pushed it. They don't care about justice. I think the people calling for Zimmerman's head from day one had their own agenda.

I don't understand the people crying that he should have been arrested right away no matter what and let the courts decide. That is not the process, nor should it be. The same people calling for this are the same people that are bringing up Zimmerman's past arrest record. Anybody see the paradox there?

If they take their time, charge him, convict him. That will sit just fine with me.

No, it's not. Being in a fight is an indictment of character? If you truly think that, then literally every person I grew up with and am still friends with to this day has poor character, according to you, including me. And, I would love to have grown up in the world you apparently did. I've been in several fights, and probably started a couple that I shouldn't have. Most other times, I did not start them. And, I'm no fighter. Stuff happens in life.

I don't know if Trayvon is an innocent angel. I THINK I know that Trayvon was innocent of any wrongdoing up to the point that Zimmerman inserted himself into Trayvon's life.

Being on top of someone and punching them could be lots of things. It could be some guy beating the crap out of a defenseless person for no reason. Or, it could be someone who was the victim of a battery defending himself or herself or it could be something completely different. It is not, necessarily, an indictment of character and could absolutely be "acceptable behavior."

How does it sound like Martin was a "punk kid?" I don't know anything about him other than the few things that have been put out in the media. Of those things, it sounds to me like Martin is a pretty average 17 year old.

And, I'm a little surprised by your comments that you care more about the legal process than the death (or life) of a minor. I say this as someone who is in the legal system. I don't care more about the legal process in our country than I do about the life of a human being.

Those are some cold-blooded words, parasaurolophus.

Im starting to wonder if this was just a wrestling match and really no punches were thrown at all. Based on the video at the station and the report that one officer at the scene made no notes of any injuries on zimmerman at all and the fact that the funeral directer saw no evidence of a fight. It think it was a shoving match then a wrestling match, i think zimmerman went for his gun and then it was a struggle for the gun, thats the only reason i can think that 2 guys would be screaming during an altercation...out of fear.

 

[renesauz]

How does it sound like Martin was a "punk kid?" I don't know anything about him other than the few things that have been put out in the media. Of those things, it sounds to me like Martin is a pretty average 17 year old.

If that's "average"...GOD HELP US ALL!

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Does it matter?

Let's say you're a 17 year old kid who has now been followed by a guy in a truck and the guy in the truck has now gotten out of his vehicle and chased you. Then, the guy (who you can now see is an adult - who, honestly does look a little intimidating) confronts you. Those are the facts as we know them.

What if the guy who has followed and chased you now grabs you and says to come with him (thinking in his head that he's going to take this punk to the address he gave the police on the phone call earlier to be arrested)? All I know at that age is that some dude wants to take me somewhere against my will and is now touching me. I'd be in fear of my life and would probably take a swing at the guy, too.

I agree...but your hypothesized version here is also unproven, and seems just as much or more of a stretch then the idea that Trayvon jumped him from behind.

let me get this straight. you think its more likely that Trayvon jumped Z from behind than Zimmerman tried to grab Trayvon to detain him? because thats what you wrote.you believe it more likely that Trayvon, a kid walking home doing nothing, who tried to evade Z at least once, would then double back and jump Z than it would be for Z, a guy who is on record as saying 'these #######s always get away', to try and grab Trayvon so that he would be there when the cops showed up?

thats ####### ridiculous. none of us know what happened, but to hear people say #### like that, it makes you wonder where they're coming from....

No....I think his entire version as a whole, taken in its entirety, is just as unlikely as (what has been reported as) Z's version.I don't for a second think the teen "jumped" Zimmerman, but I can't dismiss the possibility either. I think it likely the truth is somewhere in between.

I agree its possible Trayvon jumped Z, but just as likely? come on, dude.

It's just as likely as the full scenario where Z grabbed the kid and tried to physically detain him and drag him to where they could meet the cops. A scenario where Z surpised the kid and grabbed his arm saying "who are you" would be higher in probablity...sure.The most probable (IMO) is one where the kid doubled back to see what Z was up to, got too close and was noticed. Z says "who are you", teen says "f you, why you followin me?", Z says "who the F are you", and then teen swings first. Just as probable is one where Z decided to check one or to more spots around corners as he headed back to his truck and actually (re)found teen...then an exchange much like above occured.

That's why it's impossible to take you seriously.

Why is that? Zimmerman's call to the police has Trayvon running away and Zimmerman not knowing where he was for at least a minute that he was on the phone. Trayvon's GF claims she heard him ask Zimmerman 'what are you following me for' and Zimmerman replied 'what are you doing around here?". After that Trayvon's headset comes off, which she thinks is from Zimmerman pushing him but is more likely from Trayvon punching him.

OR...zimmerman pushing trey and trey then punching zimmerman in self defense

Not hard to imagine Trayvon punching Zimmerman for following him, he did question Zimmerman about following him just before the confrontation started, according to Trayvons GF..

 

[ATC1]

Chased and Confronted? or Followed and questioned?

If Zimmerman grabs Trayvon, this is an entirely different ball game.

Did Zimmerman loose Trayvon, and then Trayvon turns and appears to ask Zimmerman what he wants? Zimmerman responses What are you doing here and Trayvon punches Zimmerman in the face?

I doubt we will ever know what really happened unless there is a witness we don't know about.

I'm not sure I'd draw that distinction at 17 years old. Chased or followed? Well, supposedly Trayvon ran. I have no idea whether Zimmerman ran, too. An adult male is following a 17 year old male who is walking in a neighborhood. That adult male exits the vehicle at some point. If I'm 17, I'm not thinking about whether it was a "chase" or I was "followed." I'm thinking some dude has singled me out for some reason and is about to do something to me.And, I'm not sure how you question an "#######" who "always [gets] away" about what they are doing in that neighborhood without confronting them.

All we have is 911 tapes. We ever hear Zimmerman run. How long was it between the end of the call to the struggle? However, what we do have is the GF testimony. GF says that she told Trayvon to run, but he did not. Then she said she heard the first words spoken between the two. "Why are you following me?" Trayvon spoke first. "What are you doing around here?". Then she heard a physical confrontation. There was no other words spoken before the confrontation like... Don't touch or push me.

Leads me to believe there was no chase at all as Trayvon was not running. Could it be possible that Zimmerman tried to grab him and Trayvon ran at that time, and Zimmerman ran after him? Yes, although the GF did describe "a sound of pushing". That would be the key part of the case IMO.

 

[GDogg]

How does it sound like Martin was a "punk kid?" I don't know anything about him other than the few things that have been put out in the media. Of those things, it sounds to me like Martin is a pretty average 17 year old.

If that's "average"...GOD HELP US ALL!

No kidding, I mean, he has tattoos!!!! GOD HELP US ALL!!!!

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Not hard to imagine Trayvon punching Zimmerman for following him, he did question Zimmerman about following him just before the confrontation started, according to Trayvons GF..

You think Martin asked him the question, and Zimmerman answered, before or after Zimmerman turned his back and was jumped by surprise?

 

[badmojo1006]

Bottom line,I think most everybody in this thread agrees that there is enough inconsistencies in Zimmerman's story that he should be held over and have a trial. Whether he is guilty or not, that I do not know.

 

[SacramentoBob]

Chased and Confronted? or Followed and questioned?

If Zimmerman grabs Trayvon, this is an entirely different ball game.

Did Zimmerman loose Trayvon, and then Trayvon turns and appears to ask Zimmerman what he wants? Zimmerman responses What are you doing here and Trayvon punches Zimmerman in the face?

I doubt we will ever know what really happened unless there is a witness we don't know about.

I'm not sure I'd draw that distinction at 17 years old. Chased or followed? Well, supposedly Trayvon ran. I have no idea whether Zimmerman ran, too. An adult male is following a 17 year old male who is walking in a neighborhood. That adult male exits the vehicle at some point. If I'm 17, I'm not thinking about whether it was a "chase" or I was "followed." I'm thinking some dude has singled me out for some reason and is about to do something to me.And, I'm not sure how you question an "#######" who "always [gets] away" about what they are doing in that neighborhood without confronting them.

All we have is 911 tapes. We ever hear Zimmerman run. How long was it between the end of the call to the struggle? However, what we do have is the GF testimony. GF says that she told Trayvon to run, but he did not. Then she said she heard the first words spoken between the two. "Why are you following me?" Trayvon spoke first. "What are you doing around here?". Then she heard a physical confrontation. There was no other words spoken before the confrontation like... Don't touch or push me.

Leads me to believe there was no chase at all as Trayvon was not running. Could it be possible that Zimmerman tried to grab him and Trayvon ran at that time, and Zimmerman ran after him? Yes, although the GF did describe "a sound of pushing". That would be the key part of the case IMO.

Zimmerman claimed Martin was running during the call.

 

[urbanhack]

A 200+ lb 27 year old guy felt his life was endangered by a 140lb unarmed kid. How ridiculous, even if he was getting punched he was never in any danger of being injured badly.

He was a neighborhood watch wanna be cop guy looking for trouble and the opportunity to use his gun.

I hope he ends up 6 feet under.

28 year old sub 200 pound man felt threatened by a 6 foot 160 pound 17 year old. Not that it matters to you. You have made up your mind and will likely reply that it still didn't matter.Did you miss the link where I posted how the girl killed somebody with one punch? How bout the other links where other people were killed by a few punches?

It is fine to have the opinion that he shouldn't have been carrying a gun or put himself in that situation or even that you don't believe him at all. It is a whole different story to claim that you think there was no danger using false size statements and then not retract your statement when you learn the true size difference.

Why does this matter? Do you think most people, when they get into a fight (or get punched), think, "my life is in danger...that one little girl was killed in Long Beach by a punch...?" I don't.

Reading comprehension down?The girl didn't die. She was the killer. She punched a man in Illinois, once. He died.

Nope. Didn't read that story. I was referring to the incident where a little girl was killed by another little girl in Long Beach, California, in a fight with no weapons that lasted about a minute.Regardless, what does that matter? Unless you think most people will think about either story while in a fight or believe they are going to be killed by being in a fight, it doesn't matter.

They don't need to think about either story. If they are thinking about the blows that are hitting them in the face, stomach, chest, etc that is sufficient. The point of either story is to squash the neanderthal excuses being made that being in a fight is no big deal. Sorry but that is an idictment of character, and I am not talking about Zimmerman's. Being on top of somebody punching them is simply not acceptable behavior. If it did happen (which we honestly don't know) it is not something to be brushed off as no big deal. Martin was not a tiny child. He was not an innocent angel. It sounds like he was a punk kid. It sounds like Zimmerman had some issues himself. As is usual with most things in life we are not hearing the whole story.

The thing I care most about is whether or not what happened was lawful. I don't know either of these people or families. I feel bad that the parents lost a child. I care more about the legal process in our country. I think the media did a terrible job with this case from the get go. I think they had an agenda and they pushed it. They don't care about justice. I think the people calling for Zimmerman's head from day one had their own agenda.

I don't understand the people crying that he should have been arrested right away no matter what and let the courts decide. That is not the process, nor should it be. The same people calling for this are the same people that are bringing up Zimmerman's past arrest record. Anybody see the paradox there?

If they take their time, charge him, convict him. That will sit just fine with me.

No, it's not. Being in a fight is an indictment of character?

Yes.

 

[renesauz]

How does it sound like Martin was a "punk kid?" I don't know anything about him other than the few things that have been put out in the media. Of those things, it sounds to me like Martin is a pretty average 17 year old.

If that's "average"...GOD HELP US ALL!

No kidding, I mean, he has tattoos!!!! GOD HELP US ALL!!!!

Did you read the linked article? DO you really think the "average kid" gets suspended from school four times? Smokes weed regularly with his friends? Talks like a gangster? Carries womens jewelry around in a backpack? ALL OF THE ABOVE!!!???? REALLY????? That's average?

 

[Chaos Commish]

A 200+ lb 27 year old guy felt his life was endangered by a 140lb unarmed kid. How ridiculous, even if he was getting punched he was never in any danger of being injured badly.

He was a neighborhood watch wanna be cop guy looking for trouble and the opportunity to use his gun.

I hope he ends up 6 feet under.

28 year old sub 200 pound man felt threatened by a 6 foot 160 pound 17 year old. Not that it matters to you. You have made up your mind and will likely reply that it still didn't matter.Did you miss the link where I posted how the girl killed somebody with one punch? How bout the other links where other people were killed by a few punches?

It is fine to have the opinion that he shouldn't have been carrying a gun or put himself in that situation or even that you don't believe him at all. It is a whole different story to claim that you think there was no danger using false size statements and then not retract your statement when you learn the true size difference.

Why does this matter? Do you think most people, when they get into a fight (or get punched), think, "my life is in danger...that one little girl was killed in Long Beach by a punch...?" I don't.

Reading comprehension down?The girl didn't die. She was the killer. She punched a man in Illinois, once. He died.

Nope. Didn't read that story. I was referring to the incident where a little girl was killed by another little girl in Long Beach, California, in a fight with no weapons that lasted about a minute.Regardless, what does that matter? Unless you think most people will think about either story while in a fight or believe they are going to be killed by being in a fight, it doesn't matter.

They don't need to think about either story. If they are thinking about the blows that are hitting them in the face, stomach, chest, etc that is sufficient. The point of either story is to squash the neanderthal excuses being made that being in a fight is no big deal. Sorry but that is an idictment of character, and I am not talking about Zimmerman's. Being on top of somebody punching them is simply not acceptable behavior. If it did happen (which we honestly don't know) it is not something to be brushed off as no big deal. Martin was not a tiny child. He was not an innocent angel. It sounds like he was a punk kid. It sounds like Zimmerman had some issues himself. As is usual with most things in life we are not hearing the whole story.

The thing I care most about is whether or not what happened was lawful. I don't know either of these people or families. I feel bad that the parents lost a child. I care more about the legal process in our country. I think the media did a terrible job with this case from the get go. I think they had an agenda and they pushed it. They don't care about justice. I think the people calling for Zimmerman's head from day one had their own agenda.

I don't understand the people crying that he should have been arrested right away no matter what and let the courts decide. That is not the process, nor should it be. The same people calling for this are the same people that are bringing up Zimmerman's past arrest record. Anybody see the paradox there?

If they take their time, charge him, convict him. That will sit just fine with me.

No, it's not. Being in a fight is an indictment of character? If you truly think that, then literally every person I grew up with and am still friends with to this day has poor character, according to you, including me. And, I would love to have grown up in the world you apparently did. I've been in several fights, and probably started a couple that I shouldn't have. Most other times, I did not start them. And, I'm no fighter. Stuff happens in life.

I don't know if Trayvon is an innocent angel. I THINK I know that Trayvon was innocent of any wrongdoing up to the point that Zimmerman inserted himself into Trayvon's life.

Being on top of someone and punching them could be lots of things. It could be some guy beating the crap out of a defenseless person for no reason. Or, it could be someone who was the victim of a battery defending himself or herself or it could be something completely different. It is not, necessarily, an indictment of character and could absolutely be "acceptable behavior."

How does it sound like Martin was a "punk kid?" I don't know anything about him other than the few things that have been put out in the media. Of those things, it sounds to me like Martin is a pretty average 17 year old.

And, I'm a little surprised by your comments that you care more about the legal process than the death (or life) of a minor. I say this as someone who is in the legal system. I don't care more about the legal process in our country than I do about the life of a human being.

Those are some cold-blooded words, parasaurolophus.

Im starting to wonder if this was just a wrestling match and really no punches were thrown at all. Based on the video at the station and the report that one officer at the scene made no notes of any injuries on zimmerman at all and the fact that the funeral directer saw no evidence of a fight. It think it was a shoving match then a wrestling match, i think zimmerman went for his gun and then it was a struggle for the gun, thats the only reason i can think that 2 guys would be screaming during an altercation...out of fear.

Listening to the 22 second call with the clearest gunshot. It starts with loud moaning in the background, at about 10 seconds there's a couple pretty clear, pretty frightened or desperate 'help mes' and at about 17-18 seconds is the terrified wail before the gunshot. Not sure what's on tape matches your scenario above.

 

[Carver]

A 200+ lb 27 year old guy felt his life was endangered by a 140lb unarmed kid. How ridiculous, even if he was getting punched he was never in any danger of being injured badly.

He was a neighborhood watch wanna be cop guy looking for trouble and the opportunity to use his gun.

I hope he ends up 6 feet under.

28 year old sub 200 pound man felt threatened by a 6 foot 160 pound 17 year old. Not that it matters to you. You have made up your mind and will likely reply that it still didn't matter.Did you miss the link where I posted how the girl killed somebody with one punch? How bout the other links where other people were killed by a few punches?

It is fine to have the opinion that he shouldn't have been carrying a gun or put himself in that situation or even that you don't believe him at all. It is a whole different story to claim that you think there was no danger using false size statements and then not retract your statement when you learn the true size difference.

Why does this matter? Do you think most people, when they get into a fight (or get punched), think, "my life is in danger...that one little girl was killed in Long Beach by a punch...?" I don't.

Reading comprehension down?The girl didn't die. She was the killer. She punched a man in Illinois, once. He died.

Nope. Didn't read that story. I was referring to the incident where a little girl was killed by another little girl in Long Beach, California, in a fight with no weapons that lasted about a minute.Regardless, what does that matter? Unless you think most people will think about either story while in a fight or believe they are going to be killed by being in a fight, it doesn't matter.

They don't need to think about either story. If they are thinking about the blows that are hitting them in the face, stomach, chest, etc that is sufficient. The point of either story is to squash the neanderthal excuses being made that being in a fight is no big deal. Sorry but that is an idictment of character, and I am not talking about Zimmerman's. Being on top of somebody punching them is simply not acceptable behavior. If it did happen (which we honestly don't know) it is not something to be brushed off as no big deal. Martin was not a tiny child. He was not an innocent angel. It sounds like he was a punk kid. It sounds like Zimmerman had some issues himself. As is usual with most things in life we are not hearing the whole story.

The thing I care most about is whether or not what happened was lawful. I don't know either of these people or families. I feel bad that the parents lost a child. I care more about the legal process in our country. I think the media did a terrible job with this case from the get go. I think they had an agenda and they pushed it. They don't care about justice. I think the people calling for Zimmerman's head from day one had their own agenda.

I don't understand the people crying that he should have been arrested right away no matter what and let the courts decide. That is not the process, nor should it be. The same people calling for this are the same people that are bringing up Zimmerman's past arrest record. Anybody see the paradox there?

If they take their time, charge him, convict him. That will sit just fine with me.

No, it's not. Being in a fight is an indictment of character? If you truly think that, then literally every person I grew up with and am still friends with to this day has poor character, according to you, including me. And, I would love to have grown up in the world you apparently did. I've been in several fights, and probably started a couple that I shouldn't have. Most other times, I did not start them. And, I'm no fighter. Stuff happens in life.

I don't know if Trayvon is an innocent angel. I THINK I know that Trayvon was innocent of any wrongdoing up to the point that Zimmerman inserted himself into Trayvon's life.

Being on top of someone and punching them could be lots of things. It could be some guy beating the crap out of a defenseless person for no reason. Or, it could be someone who was the victim of a battery defending himself or herself or it could be something completely different. It is not, necessarily, an indictment of character and could absolutely be "acceptable behavior."

How does it sound like Martin was a "punk kid?" I don't know anything about him other than the few things that have been put out in the media. Of those things, it sounds to me like Martin is a pretty average 17 year old.

And, I'm a little surprised by your comments that you care more about the legal process than the death (or life) of a minor. I say this as someone who is in the legal system. I don't care more about the legal process in our country than I do about the life of a human being.

Those are some cold-blooded words, parasaurolophus.

Im starting to wonder if this was just a wrestling match and really no punches were thrown at all. Based on the video at the station and the report that one officer at the scene made no notes of any injuries on zimmerman at all and the fact that the funeral directer saw no evidence of a fight. It think it was a shoving match then a wrestling match, i think zimmerman went for his gun and then it was a struggle for the gun, thats the only reason i can think that 2 guys would be screaming during an altercation...out of fear.

Something like Zimmerman going to pull out his gun in attempt to "detain" Martin until the police got there, and Trayvon (fearing the worst) rushes Zimmerman and a fight ensues. Trayvon gets in some punches but Zimmerman gains control of the gun, and kills him.

 

[Dvorak]

So- you're getting knocked around on wet grass, struggling for your gun, gasping for air as your head is getting slammed down, but there's no grass stains whatsoever on your jacket, shirt, pants. You're right Christo I'm no botanist.

Tim it was reported his back was wet and there was grass on the back of his shirt. This means he was on his back on the ground. What difference does it make if there are stains?

If the jacket isn't stained, Zimmerman must be detained!

 

[TexanFan02]

How does it sound like Martin was a "punk kid?" I don't know anything about him other than the few things that have been put out in the media. Of those things, it sounds to me like Martin is a pretty average 17 year old.

If that's "average"...GOD HELP US ALL!

No kidding, I mean, he has tattoos!!!! GOD HELP US ALL!!!!

Did you read the linked article? DO you really think the "average kid" gets suspended from school four times? Smokes weed regularly with his friends? Talks like a gangster? Carries womens jewelry around in a backpack? ALL OF THE ABOVE!!!???? REALLY????? That's average?

Clearly he deserved to die. We should give Zimmerman a medal for saving society from Martin.

 

[urbanhack]

How does it sound like Martin was a "punk kid?" I don't know anything about him other than the few things that have been put out in the media. Of those things, it sounds to me like Martin is a pretty average 17 year old.

If that's "average"...GOD HELP US ALL!

No kidding, I mean, he has tattoos!!!! GOD HELP US ALL!!!!

Did you read the linked article? DO you really think the "average kid" gets suspended from school four times? Smokes weed regularly with his friends? Talks like a gangster? Carries womens jewelry around in a backpack? ALL OF THE ABOVE!!!???? REALLY????? That's average?

You are pathetic.

 

[SacramentoBob]

A 200+ lb 27 year old guy felt his life was endangered by a 140lb unarmed kid. How ridiculous, even if he was getting punched he was never in any danger of being injured badly.

He was a neighborhood watch wanna be cop guy looking for trouble and the opportunity to use his gun.

I hope he ends up 6 feet under.

28 year old sub 200 pound man felt threatened by a 6 foot 160 pound 17 year old. Not that it matters to you. You have made up your mind and will likely reply that it still didn't matter.Did you miss the link where I posted how the girl killed somebody with one punch? How bout the other links where other people were killed by a few punches?

It is fine to have the opinion that he shouldn't have been carrying a gun or put himself in that situation or even that you don't believe him at all. It is a whole different story to claim that you think there was no danger using false size statements and then not retract your statement when you learn the true size difference.

Why does this matter? Do you think most people, when they get into a fight (or get punched), think, "my life is in danger...that one little girl was killed in Long Beach by a punch...?" I don't.

Reading comprehension down?The girl didn't die. She was the killer. She punched a man in Illinois, once. He died.

Nope. Didn't read that story. I was referring to the incident where a little girl was killed by another little girl in Long Beach, California, in a fight with no weapons that lasted about a minute.Regardless, what does that matter? Unless you think most people will think about either story while in a fight or believe they are going to be killed by being in a fight, it doesn't matter.

They don't need to think about either story. If they are thinking about the blows that are hitting them in the face, stomach, chest, etc that is sufficient. The point of either story is to squash the neanderthal excuses being made that being in a fight is no big deal. Sorry but that is an idictment of character, and I am not talking about Zimmerman's. Being on top of somebody punching them is simply not acceptable behavior. If it did happen (which we honestly don't know) it is not something to be brushed off as no big deal. Martin was not a tiny child. He was not an innocent angel. It sounds like he was a punk kid. It sounds like Zimmerman had some issues himself. As is usual with most things in life we are not hearing the whole story.

The thing I care most about is whether or not what happened was lawful. I don't know either of these people or families. I feel bad that the parents lost a child. I care more about the legal process in our country. I think the media did a terrible job with this case from the get go. I think they had an agenda and they pushed it. They don't care about justice. I think the people calling for Zimmerman's head from day one had their own agenda.

I don't understand the people crying that he should have been arrested right away no matter what and let the courts decide. That is not the process, nor should it be. The same people calling for this are the same people that are bringing up Zimmerman's past arrest record. Anybody see the paradox there?

If they take their time, charge him, convict him. That will sit just fine with me.

No, it's not. Being in a fight is an indictment of character? If you truly think that, then literally every person I grew up with and am still friends with to this day has poor character, according to you, including me. And, I would love to have grown up in the world you apparently did. I've been in several fights, and probably started a couple that I shouldn't have. Most other times, I did not start them. And, I'm no fighter. Stuff happens in life.

I don't know if Trayvon is an innocent angel. I THINK I know that Trayvon was innocent of any wrongdoing up to the point that Zimmerman inserted himself into Trayvon's life.

Being on top of someone and punching them could be lots of things. It could be some guy beating the crap out of a defenseless person for no reason. Or, it could be someone who was the victim of a battery defending himself or herself or it could be something completely different. It is not, necessarily, an indictment of character and could absolutely be "acceptable behavior."

How does it sound like Martin was a "punk kid?" I don't know anything about him other than the few things that have been put out in the media. Of those things, it sounds to me like Martin is a pretty average 17 year old.

And, I'm a little surprised by your comments that you care more about the legal process than the death (or life) of a minor. I say this as someone who is in the legal system. I don't care more about the legal process in our country than I do about the life of a human being.

Those are some cold-blooded words, parasaurolophus.

Im starting to wonder if this was just a wrestling match and really no punches were thrown at all. Based on the video at the station and the report that one officer at the scene made no notes of any injuries on zimmerman at all and the fact that the funeral directer saw no evidence of a fight. It think it was a shoving match then a wrestling match, i think zimmerman went for his gun and then it was a struggle for the gun, thats the only reason i can think that 2 guys would be screaming during an altercation...out of fear.

Something like Zimmerman going to pull out his gun in attempt to "detain" Martin until the police got there, and Trayvon (fearing the worst) rushes Zimmerman and a fight ensues. Trayvon gets in some punches but Zimmerman gains control of the gun, and kills him.

Most likely scenario IMO.

 

[SacramentoBob]

How does it sound like Martin was a "punk kid?" I don't know anything about him other than the few things that have been put out in the media. Of those things, it sounds to me like Martin is a pretty average 17 year old.

If that's "average"...GOD HELP US ALL!

No kidding, I mean, he has tattoos!!!! GOD HELP US ALL!!!!

Did you read the linked article? DO you really think the "average kid" gets suspended from school four times? Smokes weed regularly with his friends? Talks like a gangster? Carries womens jewelry around in a backpack? ALL OF THE ABOVE!!!???? REALLY????? That's average?

Clearly he deserved to die. We should give Zimmerman a medal for saving society from Martin.

Tattoo artists all across America should sue Zimmerman for loss of business.

 

[GDogg]

Chased and Confronted? or Followed and questioned?

If Zimmerman grabs Trayvon, this is an entirely different ball game.

Did Zimmerman loose Trayvon, and then Trayvon turns and appears to ask Zimmerman what he wants? Zimmerman responses What are you doing here and Trayvon punches Zimmerman in the face?

I doubt we will ever know what really happened unless there is a witness we don't know about.

I'm not sure I'd draw that distinction at 17 years old. Chased or followed? Well, supposedly Trayvon ran. I have no idea whether Zimmerman ran, too. An adult male is following a 17 year old male who is walking in a neighborhood. That adult male exits the vehicle at some point. If I'm 17, I'm not thinking about whether it was a "chase" or I was "followed." I'm thinking some dude has singled me out for some reason and is about to do something to me.And, I'm not sure how you question an "#######" who "always [gets] away" about what they are doing in that neighborhood without confronting them.

All we have is 911 tapes. We ever hear Zimmerman run. How long was it between the end of the call to the struggle? However, what we do have is the GF testimony. GF says that she told Trayvon to run, but he did not. Then she said she heard the first words spoken between the two. "Why are you following me?" Trayvon spoke first. "What are you doing around here?". Then she heard a physical confrontation. There was no other words spoken before the confrontation like... Don't touch or push me.

Leads me to believe there was no chase at all as Trayvon was not running. Could it be possible that Zimmerman tried to grab him and Trayvon ran at that time, and Zimmerman ran after him? Yes, although the GF did describe "a sound of pushing". That would be the key part of the case IMO.

It's been reported that Trayvon ran away. It's also been reported that Zimmerman was pursuing him on foot.

 

[urbanhack]

With all that's been said, let's remember one thing.

Zimmerman never calls 911 or does anything if the kid is white.

 

[urbanhack]

How does it sound like Martin was a "punk kid?" I don't know anything about him other than the few things that have been put out in the media. Of those things, it sounds to me like Martin is a pretty average 17 year old.

If that's "average"...GOD HELP US ALL!

No kidding, I mean, he has tattoos!!!! GOD HELP US ALL!!!!

Did you read the linked article? DO you really think the "average kid" gets suspended from school four times? Smokes weed regularly with his friends? Talks like a gangster? Carries womens jewelry around in a backpack? ALL OF THE ABOVE!!!???? REALLY????? That's average?

Clearly he deserved to die. We should give Zimmerman a medal for saving society from Martin.

Tattoo artists all across America should sue Zimmerman for loss of business.

I'm hoping I can board my plane on Tuesday with my hoodie, but it shouldn't be a problem since I'm white.:rocky:

 

[badmojo1006]

With all that's been said, let's remember one thing.Zimmerman never calls 911 or does anything if the kid is white.

But he still shoots him because the kid roots for Florida State and Zimmerman roots for Univ Miami

 

[Chaos Commish]

All we have is 911 tapes. We ever hear Zimmerman run.

If that's a question, my answer is, "yes sort of". He isn't running so hard he cannot speak fairly clearly to the dispatch, but he does sound like he's hustling.

How long was it between the end of the call to the struggle?

The police say they are missing one minute. When I tried to figure this out based on reported timing of 911 calls I came up with two missing minutes.

However, what we do have is the GF testimony. GF says that she told Trayvon to run, but he did not. Then she said she heard the first words spoken between the two. "Why are you following me?" Trayvon spoke first. "What are you doing around here?". Then she heard a physical confrontation. There was no other words spoken before the confrontation like... Don't touch or push me.

Leads me to believe there was no chase at all as Trayvon was not running. Could it be possible that Zimmerman tried to grab him and Trayvon ran at that time, and Zimmerman ran after him? Yes, although the GF did describe "a sound of pushing". That would be the key part of the case IMO.

The timing of things leads me to believe both happened. Trayvon ran at about the 2:08 mark of Zimmerman's call. Zimmerman told the dispatch as much and at this point had nothing to lie about. At 2:14 we hear Zimmerman's car door shut and he hustles after him. I'm guessing that was a brisk jog. Zimmerman, a little breathless admits as much. There was enough time for Trayvon to lose Zimmerman, for Zimmerman to turn back towards the scene of the crime, and for Trayvon to double back and approach him from behind to see what's up.

 

[GDogg]

How does it sound like Martin was a "punk kid?" I don't know anything about him other than the few things that have been put out in the media. Of those things, it sounds to me like Martin is a pretty average 17 year old.

If that's "average"...GOD HELP US ALL!

No kidding, I mean, he has tattoos!!!! GOD HELP US ALL!!!!

Did you read the linked article? DO you really think the "average kid" gets suspended from school four times? Smokes weed regularly with his friends? Talks like a gangster? Carries womens jewelry around in a backpack? ALL OF THE ABOVE!!!???? REALLY????? That's average?

Suspended from school four times? Probably not.Smokes weed regularly with his friends? Yes.Talks like a gangster? How do gangsters speak? (And, for the record, the average kid does speak in a great deal of slang and writes in a manner on facebook and twitter that I find barely literate).Carries women's jewelry around in a backpack? Not sure, but I'd say a lot of average teens do commit petty theft. Over half of the football players in my Catholic high school stole stuff at parties and from opposing school's lockers. By the way, it doesn't make it right, but I'm saying talking about what average kids did back when I was in high school.So, yeah, three out of four do not seem out of the ordinary to me.

 

[SacramentoBob]

All we have is 911 tapes. We ever hear Zimmerman run.

If that's a question, my answer is, "yes sort of". He isn't running so hard he cannot speak fairly clearly to the dispatch, but he does sound like he's hustling.

How long was it between the end of the call to the struggle?

The police say they are missing one minute. When I tried to figure this out based on reported timing of 911 calls I came up with two missing minutes.

However, what we do have is the GF testimony. GF says that she told Trayvon to run, but he did not. Then she said she heard the first words spoken between the two. "Why are you following me?" Trayvon spoke first. "What are you doing around here?". Then she heard a physical confrontation. There was no other words spoken before the confrontation like... Don't touch or push me.

Leads me to believe there was no chase at all as Trayvon was not running. Could it be possible that Zimmerman tried to grab him and Trayvon ran at that time, and Zimmerman ran after him? Yes, although the GF did describe "a sound of pushing". That would be the key part of the case IMO.

The timing of things leads me to believe both happened. Trayvon ran at about the 2:08 mark of Zimmerman's call. Zimmerman told the dispatch as much and at this point had nothing to lie about. At 2:14 we hear Zimmerman's car door shut and he hustles after him. I'm guessing that was a brisk jog. Zimmerman, a little breathless admits as much. There was enough time for Trayvon to lose Zimmerman, for Zimmerman to turn back towards the scene of the crime, and for Trayvon to double back and approach him from behind to see what's up.

So he ran away to sneak up on him?