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Florida boy killed by Neighborhood Watch (4 Viewers)

[i think a reasonable person understands there are incidents where the cops are over zealous and their are incidents where the person was wrong and pulls out the race card to attempt to take away from that fact. In the end, as it pertains to this discussion, this point really doesn't matter. What we know is that the kid is dead and the guy shot him. Until trial happens and the "facts" come out there is no point in trying to make this all about race.
I want to correct something. If I wrote or implied earlier that this case was ALL about race, then that was an error on my part. I think it was a reflex against a lot of people who seem to want to deny that blacks are treated differently by police. Obviously, I hold that they are, and so long as some people want to keep denying the point, I'm probably going to keep stressing it.But this case is not all about race, and I'm not trying to make it so. I think race is one of the central factors.(Yesterday I wrote that it was THE central factor, but I think I was overstating it) I don't think it should be eliminated from the discussion as several people here seem intent on doing.
Tim,Your problem is with absolutes. Do you think police in small towns that have a 95% black population, as well as 95% black police force, harass blacks? There's probably a wide variety of harassment levels, ranging from none to let's make stuff up to convict the black man, depending on the police department you check out. If you asked most people they'd say that if you find a pattern of harassment by a police department it should be investigated and eradicated, as happened with the Rampart division of the LAPD back in 1996. Right now the Fullerton police department is taking a lot of heat for the murder of a homeless man and an apparent pattern of corruption. And that applies to harassment of whites, blacks, or any other color or group. But when you make blanket statements about ALL police officers and/or departments you insult both. And those are the people that put their lives on the line every day to make your community safe for you to live in. It's disgusting to me, quite honestly.

 
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Anyhow- those who believed that Zimmerman would be indicted this week are very likely wrong. We are now, it seems, left with two choices:1. Zimmerman will be indicted by the Grand Jury when it convenes next week (on the 9th or 10th, though it may take a few days for the actual indictment, or longer, so it could be the week after next or even 2 weeks.)2. Zimmerman will not be indicted.What do you guys predict?
this kind of dovetails with my earlier question:Not to single tim out, but to anyone who's view is that race is the primary issue in this, What do you see as an appropriate outcome of this case?What I'm really asking is, how are you going to feel if the feds looking into this determine that it was a justifiable shooting and that there's nothing they can charge Zimmerman with?My feeling is that cops in general want to put someone in jail when a crime is committed. Here, they know the shooter, he's admitted to the shooting. They want to put him in jail, but the stand your ground law is making that difficult for them, so they have to dot their i's and cross their t's and go through a lot of hoops they otherwise wouldn't have to go through absent the stand your ground law.If at the end of the day they're unable to charge Zimmerman with anything, I don't see that as proof that he was given preferential treatment, but proof that Florida probably needs to review its stand your ground law.
 
Anyhow- those who believed that Zimmerman would be indicted this week are very likely wrong. We are now, it seems, left with two choices:1. Zimmerman will be indicted by the Grand Jury when it convenes next week (on the 9th or 10th, though it may take a few days for the actual indictment, or longer, so it could be the week after next or even 2 weeks.)2. Zimmerman will not be indicted.What do you guys predict?
At least another 100 pages.
 
[i think a reasonable person understands there are incidents where the cops are over zealous and their are incidents where the person was wrong and pulls out the race card to attempt to take away from that fact. In the end, as it pertains to this discussion, this point really doesn't matter. What we know is that the kid is dead and the guy shot him. Until trial happens and the "facts" come out there is no point in trying to make this all about race.
I want to correct something. If I wrote or implied earlier that this case was ALL about race, then that was an error on my part. I think it was a reflex against a lot of people who seem to want to deny that blacks are treated differently by police. Obviously, I hold that they are, and so long as some people want to keep denying the point, I'm probably going to keep stressing it.But this case is not all about race, and I'm not trying to make it so. I think race is one of the central factors.(Yesterday I wrote that it was THE central factor, but I think I was overstating it) I don't think it should be eliminated from the discussion as several people here seem intent on doing.
I don't think anyone is denying that black people are sometimes treated differently by the police. We're denying that such treatment is the NORM, as you have clearly implied. You seem to believe that black people have it horribly, and are consistantly mistreated by authorities and the white populace in general, and we strongly disagree with that position. In this case, it seems pretty clear that Zimmerman is NOT a racist, and race played very little or no role in the shooting. It MAY have played a role in the intial police actions, and those actions have been rightly criticized. With the increased spotlight, it no longer plays a role IN THIS CASE. It doesn't deserve to be center stage, where you and others have tried to keep it.

 
Of course race played an issue, but Zimmerman was a zealot towards everyone so it is pure speculation. But who cares if Zimmerman viewed blacks more suspeciouly. That is not what the outrage is about. It is about about institutional racism, which from everything I have seen in this case the police and DA have done everything within reason to kiss the butts of the black community. But there is no case against Zimmerman from everything I have seen. The black community should be about equality under the law for all people, and in this case they want a lynching. It is disgraceful. I am not sure how you can look at this objectively and think otherwise. The case against Zimmerman is more emotionally driven.

 
The fact that you can't walk a mile in those shoes is the point. And it should preclude you from being able to pontificate on a message board about the black man's plight, state of mind- whatever. But it won't. So carry on.

Next topic for you guys out there in message board land- "What it's like to be a woman attempting to climb the corporate ladder in America." I'm sure some of you guys will have a lot to say on that as well. :rolleyes:
No one can walk a mile in another persons shoes, no matter what race, sex, religion, age, etc. they are. We can't walk a mile in Zimmermans shoes either, but that hasn't stopped people from calling him a racist, saying he only called the cops because Martin was black, thinking there's no way he could have feared for his life, etc.
 
So do you think that Trayvon would have even caught Zimmerman's eye as being suspicious if he were white? I know only Zimmerman can answer that. Race played either a huge role (Zimmerman is racist and was profiling Trayvon from the get go) or it played absolutely no role (Zimmerman's not racist and Trayvon was really up to no good). I don't really see any gray area here.
Review his record...his calls..the fact that he took a second to say "he looks black" only after being directly asked by the operator. Zimmerman was equal opportunity in his suspiciousness. It played no role in his actions, IMO.The police are a differant story. I think there's room to doubt how they INITIALLY handled the case. But with the national spotlight, any racial bungling was primarily limited to the first 24 hours.
 
Anyhow- those who believed that Zimmerman would be indicted this week are very likely wrong. We are now, it seems, left with two choices:1. Zimmerman will be indicted by the Grand Jury when it convenes next week (on the 9th or 10th, though it may take a few days for the actual indictment, or longer, so it could be the week after next or even 2 weeks.)2. Zimmerman will not be indicted.What do you guys predict?
this kind of dovetails with my earlier question:Not to single tim out, but to anyone who's view is that race is the primary issue in this, What do you see as an appropriate outcome of this case?What I'm really asking is, how are you going to feel if the feds looking into this determine that it was a justifiable shooting and that there's nothing they can charge Zimmerman with?My feeling is that cops in general want to put someone in jail when a crime is committed. Here, they know the shooter, he's admitted to the shooting. They want to put him in jail, but the stand your ground law is making that difficult for them, so they have to dot their i's and cross their t's and go through a lot of hoops they otherwise wouldn't have to go through absent the stand your ground law.If at the end of the day they're unable to charge Zimmerman with anything, I don't see that as proof that he was given preferential treatment, but proof that Florida probably needs to review its stand your ground law.
It's a good question, though I've already answered it in this thread. However, I will answer it again.I believe Zimmerman is guilty of murder or manslaughter and I would like to see him arrested and on trial. The fact that I want to see this happen, and what I believe, does not make it appropriate. What is appropriate is that the authorities investigate this in a professional manner and determine if they think Zimmerman broke the law. I don't think the Sanford police department or the original prosecuting attorney's office did this. I'm pretty confident that, given the national scrutiny, it's being done now.If the authorities reach the determination that Zimmerman should not be charged, I will be satisfied with that outcome, and will regard it as appropriate. But then I am able to do this because I am not as emotionally affected by this case as many black people are who have had to live their lives being treated differently in the judicial system. They will view that outcome as an injustice, and be outraged. And they will be wrong, IMO. Even so, I understand them, and sympathize with their anger against the system. And that's why I hope this is not the outcome.
 
Actually, I have a lot of black friends... I have seen some of them harassed, and I've heard some of this "because I'm black" stuff.. But I've seen that line used in situations that were obviously their fault on Waaaaay more occasions than when they were questioned for no reason.. See, for some, any time they have to interact with the police, or anytime something doesn't go their way, it's "Because I'm a Black man" or "He's just prejudice".. Often used as an excuse.. There are people in this world who are white that will judge a person based upon their skin color, just like there are people in this world that are black, that will do the same, just like there are people that are just #######s to everyone.. When a black man is harassed by the police, it's "because I'm black".. What is it when a white guy is harassed by the police?

I have a lot of brothers, cousins, uncles in my family, all white, and I'd say most of them have been harassed by the police at one point in their life... It's life.. People are #######s, and some police officers let the power go to their heads.. You search for answers when things don't add up.. "Must be because I'm black".. Maybe just the guy is an #######.. Or maybe the guy is just having a bad day.. Or maybe you deserved a ticket because you were speeding in a school zone you jack ###, just shut up and move on...
The last paragraph expresses your true viewpoint much more than the first one. At heart, you just don't accept that this sort of discrimination truly exists. You think it's simply an excuse to complain. You believe, at heart, that blacks are treated the same as whites. You believe that your brothers and cousins and uncles have all been harrassed exactly the same way blacks are. Nothing I can say will convince you otherwise, but I am 100% convinced that you are wrong, and furthermore I am 100% convinced that the fact that you are wrong about this issue shapes all of your comments about this death, most of which, IMO, are terribly misguided.
No TIm...he, and others like him, think that many Black people use this as a conveniant excuse. There's a culture of victimhood which is all too often played to, and it's gone too far. Racist cops exist, no doubt about it. But the black community puts way too much blame on the oppressive white folk, and no where near enough on their own actions and attitudes.If race played a part in this mess, it was a relatively minor one...it was NOT the driving factor in the happenings of that niught, and it's beyond absurd that we continue to make it not just a factor, but the TOP driving factor. It's disgusting, it's misleading, and it contemptible. I loathe Jackson and Sharpton...and not because they are black, but because they are ambulance chasing p**@^$%&@#s.
So do you think that Trayvon would have even caught Zimmerman's eye as being suspicious if he were white? I know only Zimmerman can answer that. Race played either a huge role (Zimmerman is racist and was profiling Trayvon from the get go) or it played absolutely no role (Zimmerman's not racist and Trayvon was really up to no good). I don't really see any gray area here.
Zimmerman was reporting garage doors being open.Anyone of any race that he didn't recognize would have caught his eye.

The 911 call (the complete version not the NBC smear version) seems to indicate that he wasn't even sure of Trayvon's race.

 
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So do you think that Trayvon would have even caught Zimmerman's eye as being suspicious if he were white? I know only Zimmerman can answer that. Race played either a huge role (Zimmerman is racist and was profiling Trayvon from the get go) or it played absolutely no role (Zimmerman's not racist and Trayvon was really up to no good). I don't really see any gray area here.
Review his record...his calls..the fact that he took a second to say "he looks black" only after being directly asked by the operator. Zimmerman was equal opportunity in his suspiciousness. It played no role in his actions, IMO.The police are a differant story. I think there's room to doubt how they INITIALLY handled the case. But with the national spotlight, any racial bungling was primarily limited to the first 24 hours.
Why? I think they were incompetent, but they were fair. The initial police report thought Zimmerman was lying and thought charges should be brought. But quite frankly, the evidence is not there to prosecute.
 
Just realized you live 30mins from me commish... Have we ever talked about that before?
Not sure :hifive: We can start discussion about that now. Seems like all rationale in this thread is lost. Sucks that a bad apple ruins it for everyone else. Where are you?
My office is on monroe rd just above matthews in charlotte. I've moved out of charlotte and into union county (Indian Trail). Originally from western NY, but I've been here for a while. I like it.Fortmill has sure grown a bit in the last 15 years. Pretty nice area these days.
 
Tim,

Your problem is with absolutes. Do you think police in small towns that have a 95% black population, as well as 95% black police force, harass blacks? There's probably a wide variety of harassment levels, ranging from none to let's make stuff up to convict the black man, depending on the police department you check out. If you asked most people they'd say that if you find a pattern of harassment by a police department it should be investigated and eradicated, as happened with the Rampart division of the LAPD back in 1996. Right now the Fullerton police department is taking a lot of heat for the murder of a homeless man and an apparent pattern of corruption. And that applies to harassment of whites, blacks, or any other color or group. But when you make blanket statements about ALL police officers and/or departments you insult both. And those are the people that put their lives on the line every day to make your community safe for you to live in. It's disgusting to me, quite honestly.
You make reasonable points here. I think the reason I tend to use absolutes in this discussion is because there are so many people here (and elsewhere) who reject the whole notion that blacks are, in general, treated differently by the police in this country. Of course there are exceptions, but it seems like every time an eception is raised, it is in order to discount the idea in the first place. I have yet to meet a single black person, or watch one on television, or read one, that has denied unequal treatment by police. This applies to blacks of all political convictions. It seems as if every teenage or adult black person in this country can relate some story about them being stopped, harrassed, made to answer questions which a white person would not. Of course this doesn't mean that all police do this, or that all police forces are equal. But I'm not going to discuss these nuances with you, until you're willing to accept my general premise that blacks are, as a rule, not treated the same. Until you, and others here, are willing to accept that as reality, I find the use of absolutes for discussion purposes sadly appropriate.

 
The fact that you can't walk a mile in those shoes is the point. And it should preclude you from being able to pontificate on a message board about the black man's plight, state of mind- whatever. But it won't. So carry on.

Next topic for you guys out there in message board land- "What it's like to be a woman attempting to climb the corporate ladder in America." I'm sure some of you guys will have a lot to say on that as well. :rolleyes:
No one can walk a mile in another persons shoes, no matter what race, sex, religion, age, etc. they are. We can't walk a mile in Zimmermans shoes either, but that hasn't stopped people from calling him a racist, saying he only called the cops because Martin was black, thinking there's no way he could have feared for his life, etc.
Right. So a whole lotta hot air in these 145 pages. My beef revolves around the gun's being in the equation. It isn't supposed to be in it for a reason. Were it not, Zimmerman proobably (not definitively...)wouldn't have had himself a case of "Gun Balls" and this wouldn't be a big waste of bandwidth.

 
Actually, I have a lot of black friends... I have seen some of them harassed, and I've heard some of this "because I'm black" stuff.. But I've seen that line used in situations that were obviously their fault on Waaaaay more occasions than when they were questioned for no reason.. See, for some, any time they have to interact with the police, or anytime something doesn't go their way, it's "Because I'm a Black man" or "He's just prejudice".. Often used as an excuse.. There are people in this world who are white that will judge a person based upon their skin color, just like there are people in this world that are black, that will do the same, just like there are people that are just #######s to everyone.. When a black man is harassed by the police, it's "because I'm black".. What is it when a white guy is harassed by the police?

I have a lot of brothers, cousins, uncles in my family, all white, and I'd say most of them have been harassed by the police at one point in their life... It's life.. People are #######s, and some police officers let the power go to their heads.. You search for answers when things don't add up.. "Must be because I'm black".. Maybe just the guy is an #######.. Or maybe the guy is just having a bad day.. Or maybe you deserved a ticket because you were speeding in a school zone you jack ###, just shut up and move on...
The last paragraph expresses your true viewpoint much more than the first one. At heart, you just don't accept that this sort of discrimination truly exists. You think it's simply an excuse to complain. You believe, at heart, that blacks are treated the same as whites. You believe that your brothers and cousins and uncles have all been harrassed exactly the same way blacks are. Nothing I can say will convince you otherwise, but I am 100% convinced that you are wrong, and furthermore I am 100% convinced that the fact that you are wrong about this issue shapes all of your comments about this death, most of which, IMO, are terribly misguided.
No TIm...he, and others like him, think that many Black people use this as a conveniant excuse. There's a culture of victimhood which is all too often played to, and it's gone too far. Racist cops exist, no doubt about it. But the black community puts way too much blame on the oppressive white folk, and no where near enough on their own actions and attitudes.If race played a part in this mess, it was a relatively minor one...it was NOT the driving factor in the happenings of that niught, and it's beyond absurd that we continue to make it not just a factor, but the TOP driving factor. It's disgusting, it's misleading, and it contemptible. I loathe Jackson and Sharpton...and not because they are black, but because they are ambulance chasing p**@^$%&@#s.
So do you think that Trayvon would have even caught Zimmerman's eye as being suspicious if he were white? I know only Zimmerman can answer that. Race played either a huge role (Zimmerman is racist and was profiling Trayvon from the get go) or it played absolutely no role (Zimmerman's not racist and Trayvon was really up to no good). I don't really see any gray area here.
Call records have shown Zimmerman has on other occasions called in about white and hispanics as well.
 
So do you think that Trayvon would have even caught Zimmerman's eye as being suspicious if he were white? I know only Zimmerman can answer that. Race played either a huge role (Zimmerman is racist and was profiling Trayvon from the get go) or it played absolutely no role (Zimmerman's not racist and Trayvon was really up to no good). I don't really see any gray area here.
Review his record...his calls..the fact that he took a second to say "he looks black" only after being directly asked by the operator. Zimmerman was equal opportunity in his suspiciousness. It played no role in his actions, IMO.The police are a differant story. I think there's room to doubt how they INITIALLY handled the case. But with the national spotlight, any racial bungling was primarily limited to the first 24 hours.
Why? I think they were incompetent, but they were fair. The initial police report thought Zimmerman was lying and thought charges should be brought. But quite frankly, the evidence is not there to prosecute.
I agree. But I can see how someone could look at the intial investigation and police actions and wonder if race mattered there, particularly in a department with an already damaged reputation for handling sensitive matters. There's no proof, but it's certainly a fair question.
 
Tim,

Your problem is with absolutes. Do you think police in small towns that have a 95% black population, as well as 95% black police force, harass blacks? There's probably a wide variety of harassment levels, ranging from none to let's make stuff up to convict the black man, depending on the police department you check out. If you asked most people they'd say that if you find a pattern of harassment by a police department it should be investigated and eradicated, as happened with the Rampart division of the LAPD back in 1996. Right now the Fullerton police department is taking a lot of heat for the murder of a homeless man and an apparent pattern of corruption. And that applies to harassment of whites, blacks, or any other color or group. But when you make blanket statements about ALL police officers and/or departments you insult both. And those are the people that put their lives on the line every day to make your community safe for you to live in. It's disgusting to me, quite honestly.
You make reasonable points here. I think the reason I tend to use absolutes in this discussion is because there are so many people here (and elsewhere) who reject the whole notion that blacks are, in general, treated differently by the police in this country. Of course there are exceptions, but it seems like every time an eception is raised, it is in order to discount the idea in the first place. I have yet to meet a single black person, or watch one on television, or read one, that has denied unequal treatment by police. This applies to blacks of all political convictions. It seems as if every teenage or adult black person in this country can relate some story about them being stopped, harrassed, made to answer questions which a white person would not. Of course this doesn't mean that all police do this, or that all police forces are equal. But I'm not going to discuss these nuances with you, until you're willing to accept my general premise that blacks are, as a rule, not treated the same. Until you, and others here, are willing to accept that as reality, I find the use of absolutes for discussion purposes sadly appropriate.
Is that the first thing you ask black people when you meet them? Given where you live, I'd have to think you come in to contact with a lot of black people. What percentage do you query on their race relations with police?And no, I won't accept your premise. I didn't raise any exceptions in my argument. There are no specifics because I think in general police departments try to be fair to everyone.

 
The fact that you can't walk a mile in those shoes is the point. And it should preclude you from being able to pontificate on a message board about the black man's plight, state of mind- whatever. But it won't. So carry on.

Next topic for you guys out there in message board land- "What it's like to be a woman attempting to climb the corporate ladder in America." I'm sure some of you guys will have a lot to say on that as well. :rolleyes:
No one can walk a mile in another persons shoes, no matter what race, sex, religion, age, etc. they are. We can't walk a mile in Zimmermans shoes either, but that hasn't stopped people from calling him a racist, saying he only called the cops because Martin was black, thinking there's no way he could have feared for his life, etc.
Exactly
 
Tim,

Your problem is with absolutes. Do you think police in small towns that have a 95% black population, as well as 95% black police force, harass blacks? There's probably a wide variety of harassment levels, ranging from none to let's make stuff up to convict the black man, depending on the police department you check out. If you asked most people they'd say that if you find a pattern of harassment by a police department it should be investigated and eradicated, as happened with the Rampart division of the LAPD back in 1996. Right now the Fullerton police department is taking a lot of heat for the murder of a homeless man and an apparent pattern of corruption. And that applies to harassment of whites, blacks, or any other color or group. But when you make blanket statements about ALL police officers and/or departments you insult both. And those are the people that put their lives on the line every day to make your community safe for you to live in. It's disgusting to me, quite honestly.
You make reasonable points here. I think the reason I tend to use absolutes in this discussion is because there are so many people here (and elsewhere) who reject the whole notion that blacks are, in general, treated differently by the police in this country. Of course there are exceptions, but it seems like every time an eception is raised, it is in order to discount the idea in the first place. I have yet to meet a single black person, or watch one on television, or read one, that has denied unequal treatment by police. This applies to blacks of all political convictions. It seems as if every teenage or adult black person in this country can relate some story about them being stopped, harrassed, made to answer questions which a white person would not. Of course this doesn't mean that all police do this, or that all police forces are equal. But I'm not going to discuss these nuances with you, until you're willing to accept my general premise that blacks are, as a rule, not treated the same. Until you, and others here, are willing to accept that as reality, I find the use of absolutes for discussion purposes sadly appropriate.
Why would they deny it? Think about it. Black people are constantly being told they are traeted differently. They are constantly LOOKING to be and expecting to be treated differently. All too often, they believe they are being treated differantly when they aren't. It's a self-perpetuating problem based more on expectation then on reality. There exists in many black communities an overwhelming sense of victimhood which accomplishes little except to help keep their socioeconomic class low, and promote the gangs and violence in general. If a kid is taught the cop will treat them differently...then they act differently toward the cop as a result...of course the cop then treats them diferantly..it's a self-fulfilling prediction. Look like a gang-banger, talk like a gang-banger...get treated like a gang-banger, even if you aren't. Not the cops fault.

 
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Tim,

Your problem is with absolutes. Do you think police in small towns that have a 95% black population, as well as 95% black police force, harass blacks? There's probably a wide variety of harassment levels, ranging from none to let's make stuff up to convict the black man, depending on the police department you check out. If you asked most people they'd say that if you find a pattern of harassment by a police department it should be investigated and eradicated, as happened with the Rampart division of the LAPD back in 1996. Right now the Fullerton police department is taking a lot of heat for the murder of a homeless man and an apparent pattern of corruption. And that applies to harassment of whites, blacks, or any other color or group. But when you make blanket statements about ALL police officers and/or departments you insult both. And those are the people that put their lives on the line every day to make your community safe for you to live in. It's disgusting to me, quite honestly.
You make reasonable points here. I think the reason I tend to use absolutes in this discussion is because there are so many people here (and elsewhere) who reject the whole notion that blacks are, in general, treated differently by the police in this country. Of course there are exceptions, but it seems like every time an eception is raised, it is in order to discount the idea in the first place. I have yet to meet a single black person, or watch one on television, or read one, that has denied unequal treatment by police. This applies to blacks of all political convictions. It seems as if every teenage or adult black person in this country can relate some story about them being stopped, harrassed, made to answer questions which a white person would not. Of course this doesn't mean that all police do this, or that all police forces are equal. But I'm not going to discuss these nuances with you, until you're willing to accept my general premise that blacks are, as a rule, not treated the same. Until you, and others here, are willing to accept that as reality, I find the use of absolutes for discussion purposes sadly appropriate.
Why would they deny it? Think about it. Black people are constantly being told they are traeted differently. They are constantly LOOKING to be and expecting to be treated differently. All too often, they believe they are being treated differantly when they aren't. It's a self-perpetuating problem based more on expectation then on reality. There exists in many black communities an overwhelming sense of victimhood which accomplishes little except to help keep their socioeconomic class low, and promote the gangs and violence in general. If a kid is taught the cop will treat them differently...then they act differently toward the cop as a result...of course the cop then treats them diferantly..it's a self-fulfilling prediction. Look like a gang-banger, talk like a gang-banger...get treated like a gang-banger, even if you aren't. Not the cops fault.
Nope.I understand your opinion, Renesauz. I don't regard you with ill for holding this opinion. But I strongly strongly disagree with it. And I think it's never going to be possible for us to look at this case in the same way since we begin with such different premises. Glad we have reached clarity.

 
To my understanding, if Zimmerman did receive any prteferential/unfair advantage in this case, it was because his father was a judge, and not because Trayvon was black. But no one yet has shown any definative proof that 7immerman received an unfair advantage. He was taken in, in handcuffs, and was questioned several times. Looks like the law was on his side based on the definition of his self defense claim and lack of evidence against him, not because Trayvon was black.. :shrug:

 
Anyhow- those who believed that Zimmerman would be indicted this week are very likely wrong. We are now, it seems, left with two choices:1. Zimmerman will be indicted by the Grand Jury when it convenes next week (on the 9th or 10th, though it may take a few days for the actual indictment, or longer, so it could be the week after next or even 2 weeks.)2. Zimmerman will not be indicted.What do you guys predict?
this kind of dovetails with my earlier question:Not to single tim out, but to anyone who's view is that race is the primary issue in this, What do you see as an appropriate outcome of this case?What I'm really asking is, how are you going to feel if the feds looking into this determine that it was a justifiable shooting and that there's nothing they can charge Zimmerman with?My feeling is that cops in general want to put someone in jail when a crime is committed. Here, they know the shooter, he's admitted to the shooting. They want to put him in jail, but the stand your ground law is making that difficult for them, so they have to dot their i's and cross their t's and go through a lot of hoops they otherwise wouldn't have to go through absent the stand your ground law.If at the end of the day they're unable to charge Zimmerman with anything, I don't see that as proof that he was given preferential treatment, but proof that Florida probably needs to review its stand your ground law.
It's a good question, though I've already answered it in this thread. However, I will answer it again.I believe Zimmerman is guilty of murder or manslaughter and I would like to see him arrested and on trial. The fact that I want to see this happen, and what I believe, does not make it appropriate. What is appropriate is that the authorities investigate this in a professional manner and determine if they think Zimmerman broke the law. I don't think the Sanford police department or the original prosecuting attorney's office did this. I'm pretty confident that, given the national scrutiny, it's being done now.If the authorities reach the determination that Zimmerman should not be charged, I will be satisfied with that outcome, and will regard it as appropriate. But then I am able to do this because I am not as emotionally affected by this case as many black people are who have had to live their lives being treated differently in the judicial system. They will view that outcome as an injustice, and be outraged. And they will be wrong, IMO. Even so, I understand them, and sympathize with their anger against the system. And that's why I hope this is not the outcome.
Maybe I'm reading you wrong, but you're hoping Zimmerman was a racist so the black community will be shown to have been justified in their outrage and they won't riot...
 
Anyhow- those who believed that Zimmerman would be indicted this week are very likely wrong. We are now, it seems, left with two choices:1. Zimmerman will be indicted by the Grand Jury when it convenes next week (on the 9th or 10th, though it may take a few days for the actual indictment, or longer, so it could be the week after next or even 2 weeks.)2. Zimmerman will not be indicted.What do you guys predict?
this kind of dovetails with my earlier question:Not to single tim out, but to anyone who's view is that race is the primary issue in this, What do you see as an appropriate outcome of this case?What I'm really asking is, how are you going to feel if the feds looking into this determine that it was a justifiable shooting and that there's nothing they can charge Zimmerman with?My feeling is that cops in general want to put someone in jail when a crime is committed. Here, they know the shooter, he's admitted to the shooting. They want to put him in jail, but the stand your ground law is making that difficult for them, so they have to dot their i's and cross their t's and go through a lot of hoops they otherwise wouldn't have to go through absent the stand your ground law.If at the end of the day they're unable to charge Zimmerman with anything, I don't see that as proof that he was given preferential treatment, but proof that Florida probably needs to review its stand your ground law.
It's a good question, though I've already answered it in this thread. However, I will answer it again.I believe Zimmerman is guilty of murder or manslaughter and I would like to see him arrested and on trial. The fact that I want to see this happen, and what I believe, does not make it appropriate. What is appropriate is that the authorities investigate this in a professional manner and determine if they think Zimmerman broke the law. I don't think the Sanford police department or the original prosecuting attorney's office did this. I'm pretty confident that, given the national scrutiny, it's being done now.If the authorities reach the determination that Zimmerman should not be charged, I will be satisfied with that outcome, and will regard it as appropriate. But then I am able to do this because I am not as emotionally affected by this case as many black people are who have had to live their lives being treated differently in the judicial system. They will view that outcome as an injustice, and be outraged. And they will be wrong, IMO. Even so, I understand them, and sympathize with their anger against the system. And that's why I hope this is not the outcome.
Maybe I'm reading you wrong, but you're hoping Zimmerman was a racist so the black community will be shown to have been justified in their outrage and they won't riot...
I'm not hoping that Zimmerman was a racist. I believe he's guilty of a major crime, so I'm hoping that he goes to prison for it. And I hoping that blacks, so many of whom feel disenfranchised, are satisfied with the outcome. But my hope has nothing to do with what should happen.
 
Tim,

Your problem is with absolutes. Do you think police in small towns that have a 95% black population, as well as 95% black police force, harass blacks? There's probably a wide variety of harassment levels, ranging from none to let's make stuff up to convict the black man, depending on the police department you check out. If you asked most people they'd say that if you find a pattern of harassment by a police department it should be investigated and eradicated, as happened with the Rampart division of the LAPD back in 1996. Right now the Fullerton police department is taking a lot of heat for the murder of a homeless man and an apparent pattern of corruption. And that applies to harassment of whites, blacks, or any other color or group. But when you make blanket statements about ALL police officers and/or departments you insult both. And those are the people that put their lives on the line every day to make your community safe for you to live in. It's disgusting to me, quite honestly.
You make reasonable points here. I think the reason I tend to use absolutes in this discussion is because there are so many people here (and elsewhere) who reject the whole notion that blacks are, in general, treated differently by the police in this country. Of course there are exceptions, but it seems like every time an eception is raised, it is in order to discount the idea in the first place. I have yet to meet a single black person, or watch one on television, or read one, that has denied unequal treatment by police. This applies to blacks of all political convictions. It seems as if every teenage or adult black person in this country can relate some story about them being stopped, harrassed, made to answer questions which a white person would not. Of course this doesn't mean that all police do this, or that all police forces are equal. But I'm not going to discuss these nuances with you, until you're willing to accept my general premise that blacks are, as a rule, not treated the same. Until you, and others here, are willing to accept that as reality, I find the use of absolutes for discussion purposes sadly appropriate.
Why would they deny it? Think about it. Black people are constantly being told they are traeted differently. They are constantly LOOKING to be and expecting to be treated differently. All too often, they believe they are being treated differantly when they aren't. It's a self-perpetuating problem based more on expectation then on reality. There exists in many black communities an overwhelming sense of victimhood which accomplishes little except to help keep their socioeconomic class low, and promote the gangs and violence in general. If a kid is taught the cop will treat them differently...then they act differently toward the cop as a result...of course the cop then treats them diferantly..it's a self-fulfilling prediction. Look like a gang-banger, talk like a gang-banger...get treated like a gang-banger, even if you aren't. Not the cops fault.
Nope.I understand your opinion, Renesauz. I don't regard you with ill for holding this opinion. But I strongly strongly disagree with it. And I think it's never going to be possible for us to look at this case in the same way since we begin with such different premises. Glad we have reached clarity.
Tim, you have no clue what the hell you are talking about.
 
I'm hoping that he goes to prison for it. And I hoping that blacks, so many of whom feel disenfranchised, are satisfied with the outcome.
GALLUP: Blacks, Non-blacks Hold Sharply Different Views of Martin Case. (April 5, 2012)

GALLUP POLL FIGURES

PRINCETON, NJ -- Black Americans' views differ dramatically from those of nonblacks regarding the circumstances involved in the death of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin in Sanford, Fla., on Feb. 26. Blacks are paying much closer attention to the news of the incident; overwhelmingly believe that George Zimmerman, the individual who shot Martin, is guilty of a crime; believe that racial bias was a major factor in the events leading up to the shooting; and believe that Zimmerman would already have been arrested had the victim been white, not black.

These results are from an April 2-4 USA Today/Gallup poll of 3,006 Americans, including 242 blacks, conducted as part of Gallup Daily tracking. Martin's death has sparked national interest and, more recently, protests, because Zimmerman, who is white and Hispanic, was not arrested after he claimed self-defense under Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law. With many black leaders and others calling for Zimmerman's arrest and charging racism against the Sanford police department, the case has clearly captured the attention of the large majority of black Americans across the country.

The 52% of blacks who say they are following the news about the Trayvon Martin case very closely contrasts sharply with the 19% of nonblacks who are paying equally close attention. More broadly, eight in 10 blacks are following the story either very or somewhat closely, compared with 59% of nonblacks.

Blacks More Sure That Zimmerman Is Guilty, Racial Bias a Factor

Blacks are much more likely than nonblacks to have an opinion about Zimmerman's guilt. Overall, 72% of blacks say Zimmerman is definitely or probably guilty of a crime; 1% say he is not. Nonblacks also say Zimmerman is guilty, by 32% to 7%, but well over half of nonblacks say Zimmerman's guilt is unclear from the available information.

Blacks are more certain about their opinions than are nonblacks. Blacks who say Zimmerman is guilty of a crime are significantly more likely to say he is definitely guilty than probably guilty, while nonblacks tilt more toward the "probably guilty" choice.

Additionally, 72% of blacks say racial bias was a major factor in the events that led up to the shooting death of Martin, with another 13% saying it was a minor factor. Nonblacks, on the other hand, are significantly less certain, with 31% saying racial bias was a major factor, 26% saying it was a minor factor, and 25% saying it was not a factor at all.

Blacks Say Zimmerman Would Have Been Arrested if Victim Had Been White

A final question included in the poll asked if Zimmerman would have been arrested under the same circumstances if the person he shot was white.

Consistent with the widespread view among blacks that racial bias was a factor in the events surrounding the shooting, blacks overwhelmingly (73%) say Zimmerman would have been arrested had the victim been white. Nonblacks, on the other hand, tilt toward the view that race did not make a difference in the Zimmerman situation (49%), with 35% saying he would have arrested had the victim been white.

Implications

U.S. public opinion about the Trayvon Martin case in Florida reflects the same type of racial divide found in 1995 surveys asking about the murder trial of O.J. Simpson in Los Angeles. In one Gallup poll conducted Oct. 5-7, 1995, for example, 78% of blacks said the jury that found Simpson not guilty of murder made the right decision, while only 42% of whites agreed.

The situation in the Trayvon Martin case is different from the Simpson situation, however, because the victim, rather than the alleged perpetrator, is black. Still, both situations, even though 17 years apart, apparently tap into the same deeply felt views of the average black American that the criminal justice system in America is biased against blacks. Underscoring this conclusion, a 2008 Gallup Minority Rights and Relations survey found that 67% of blacks said the American justice system was biased against blacks, a viewpoint only 32% of non-Hispanic whites agreed with.

Blacks across the country are clearly following and thinking about the Martin case, exemplified by the extraordinary 80% who say they are following the news about it closely. This level of attention to the case comes at a time when a number of prominent black activists and politicians have taken up the case as a cause. MSNBC talk show host Al Sharpton broadcast live from Sanford, Fla., for several days, the Rev. Jesse Jackson and well-known black activists also went to Sanford, black Congressman Bobby Rush of Illinois wore a "hoodie" into Congress to express his concern about the case, and President Obama himself got involved in his responses to questions about the case -- saying if he had a son, he would have looked like Martin.

The average black American has strong views on the case, perceiving that Zimmerman is guilty of a crime and that race has played a major factor in the case. Nonblacks, by contrast, are much less likely to think Zimmerman is guilty and are substantially less likely to believe that race was a factor.

The next steps in the Trayvon Martin case are unclear at this point. Florida's governor has appointed a special prosecutor to look into the case, and a grand jury is slated to review the case on Tuesday. It is possible that Zimmerman will ultimately be arrested and will stand trial. Whatever happens, however, it is clear that the case struck a highly responsive chord with blacks across the country, and that blacks' immediate judgments are that this represents still another example of a racially biased criminal justice system.

 
The fact that you can't walk a mile in those shoes is the point. And it should preclude you from being able to pontificate on a message board about the black man's plight, state of mind- whatever. But it won't. So carry on.

Next topic for you guys out there in message board land- "What it's like to be a woman attempting to climb the corporate ladder in America." I'm sure some of you guys will have a lot to say on that as well. :rolleyes:
No one can walk a mile in another persons shoes, no matter what race, sex, religion, age, etc. they are. We can't walk a mile in Zimmermans shoes either, but that hasn't stopped people from calling him a racist, saying he only called the cops because Martin was black, thinking there's no way he could have feared for his life, etc.
Right. So a whole lotta hot air in these 145 pages. My beef revolves around the gun's being in the equation. It isn't supposed to be in it for a reason. Were it not, Zimmerman proobably (not definitively...)wouldn't have had himself a case of "Gun Balls" and this wouldn't be a big waste of bandwidth.
No doubt, this thread is a giant cluster####. I'm not seeing what the gun has to do with race though?
 
. Underscoring this conclusion, a 2008 Gallup Minority Rights and Relations survey found that 67% of blacks said the American justice system was biased against blacks, a viewpoint only 32% of non-Hispanic whites agreed with.
Thanks for posting that Clinton. Lots of key points in that article, this being one of them. I'm part of that 32%. I recognize that we're a minority opinion. I suspect that of the 68% who form the majority, at least half really have never paid attention to the issue or given it any serious thought. (I am excluding of course, everyone here who disagrees with me.) Just my suspicion. One other thing that article points out- the high number of African-Americans who are paying close attention to this case. That indicates to me that the idea that Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson have created this anger is a false notion. Those two exploiters (I think that's an apt description) have done nothing to foment this, or build it up. They are merely chance surfers on a huge wave. They didn't create the wave, they have no means to control the wave. Their only hope is to stand on the surfboard on top the wave until it finishes (or until they crash). I think this has to be clearly understood in order to evaluate their activities.
 
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Tim, you have no clue what the hell you are talking about.
But I do. You may not agree with me- many people don't. But don't accuse me of being ignorant about this subject matter. There are plenty of things that I'm ignorant about. Racism is not one of them.
Tim has 2 black friends and his wifes aunt that will corrobarate what he has said if you don't believe him..
More than that. But in truth I don't need any of them. Common sense will suffice.
 
The fact that you can't walk a mile in those shoes is the point. And it should preclude you from being able to pontificate on a message board about the black man's plight, state of mind- whatever. But it won't. So carry on.

Next topic for you guys out there in message board land- "What it's like to be a woman attempting to climb the corporate ladder in America." I'm sure some of you guys will have a lot to say on that as well. :rolleyes:
No one can walk a mile in another persons shoes, no matter what race, sex, religion, age, etc. they are. We can't walk a mile in Zimmermans shoes either, but that hasn't stopped people from calling him a racist, saying he only called the cops because Martin was black, thinking there's no way he could have feared for his life, etc.
Right. So a whole lotta hot air in these 145 pages. My beef revolves around the gun's being in the equation. It isn't supposed to be in it for a reason. Were it not, Zimmerman proobably (not definitively...)wouldn't have had himself a case of "Gun Balls" and this wouldn't be a big waste of bandwidth.
No doubt, this thread is a giant cluster####. I'm not seeing what the gun has to do with race though?
:lmao: The gun has nothing to do with race. It has to do with shooting someone.
 
Tim, you have no clue what the hell you are talking about.
But I do. You may not agree with me- many people don't. But don't accuse me of being ignorant about this subject matter. There are plenty of things that I'm ignorant about. Racism is not one of them.
Tim has 2 black friends and his wifes aunt that will corrobarate what he has said if you don't believe him..
More than that. But in truth I don't need any of them. Common sense will suffice.
Then why continue to bring them up?It does nothing to help along the discussion.Just the opposite.
 
The fact that you can't walk a mile in those shoes is the point. And it should preclude you from being able to pontificate on a message board about the black man's plight, state of mind- whatever. But it won't. So carry on.

Next topic for you guys out there in message board land- "What it's like to be a woman attempting to climb the corporate ladder in America." I'm sure some of you guys will have a lot to say on that as well. :rolleyes:
No one can walk a mile in another persons shoes, no matter what race, sex, religion, age, etc. they are. We can't walk a mile in Zimmermans shoes either, but that hasn't stopped people from calling him a racist, saying he only called the cops because Martin was black, thinking there's no way he could have feared for his life, etc.
Right. So a whole lotta hot air in these 145 pages. My beef revolves around the gun's being in the equation. It isn't supposed to be in it for a reason. Were it not, Zimmerman proobably (not definitively...)wouldn't have had himself a case of "Gun Balls" and this wouldn't be a big waste of bandwidth.
No doubt, this thread is a giant cluster####. I'm not seeing what the gun has to do with race though?
:lmao: The gun has nothing to do with race. It has to do with shooting someone.
I somehow find irony in Glock making an argument for gun control.
 
The fact that you can't walk a mile in those shoes is the point. And it should preclude you from being able to pontificate on a message board about the black man's plight, state of mind- whatever. But it won't. So carry on.

Next topic for you guys out there in message board land- "What it's like to be a woman attempting to climb the corporate ladder in America." I'm sure some of you guys will have a lot to say on that as well. :rolleyes:
No one can walk a mile in another persons shoes, no matter what race, sex, religion, age, etc. they are. We can't walk a mile in Zimmermans shoes either, but that hasn't stopped people from calling him a racist, saying he only called the cops because Martin was black, thinking there's no way he could have feared for his life, etc.
Right. So a whole lotta hot air in these 145 pages. My beef revolves around the gun's being in the equation. It isn't supposed to be in it for a reason. Were it not, Zimmerman proobably (not definitively...)wouldn't have had himself a case of "Gun Balls" and this wouldn't be a big waste of bandwidth.
No doubt, this thread is a giant cluster####. I'm not seeing what the gun has to do with race though?
:lmao: The gun has nothing to do with race. It has to do with shooting someone.
I somehow find irony in Glock making an argument for gun control.
:goodposting:
 
Tim, you have no clue what the hell you are talking about.
But I do. You may not agree with me- many people don't. But don't accuse me of being ignorant about this subject matter. There are plenty of things that I'm ignorant about. Racism is not one of them.
Tim has 2 black friends and his wifes aunt that will corrobarate what he has said if you don't believe him..
More than that. But in truth I don't need any of them. Common sense will suffice.
Then why continue to bring them up?It does nothing to help along the discussion.Just the opposite.
The aunt was brought up specifically to discuss why the same photos were used over and over. That's not a common sense issue. You need to know a little bit about why TV does certain things in order to understand the reasons for that, and that they were in fact not the reasons that so many people around here were assuming to be true. The only reason I had any knowledge at all on this subject is because of my aunt, so I thought I would share it here. As for my black friends, I thought their imput on this subject might have more gravitas than my own.
 
IF the police had just arrested Zimmerman and then he was released on bond while they do the investigation then we would not of heard about this. But because they did not arrest him, and he just walked away after killing a person is why there is the outrage. So if the police would of just stuck to their guts and arrested him and then put the case in the hands of the legal system like they normally do then we would not have 145+ pages of postings.

 
IF the police had just arrested Zimmerman and then he was released on bond while they do the investigation then we would not of heard about this. But because they did not arrest him, and he just walked away after killing a person is why there is the outrage. So if the police would of just stuck to their guts and arrested him and then put the case in the hands of the legal system like they normally do then we would not have 145+ pages of postings.
:goodposting: :goodposting: I REALLY agree with this point. This is the key reason we are discussing this matter: the failure of the police to arrest.I'll go further: if Zimmerman had been arrested that night, tried, and then acquitted due to "Stand Your Ground" or self-defense, this story would have received some attention, possibly even national news. It would have received nowhere NEAR the attention that it has up to the point.
 
So maybe we need to start a new thread to discuss the case without the lame race issue dominating a once compelling discussion.
Relax. I've said all I'm going to say about race, at least for now. I don't consider it a lame issue, but I don't see the need to repeat myself. It's out there. People know what I think, I know what they think, there's no need to go on and on about it. At least not for me.On the other hand, the main reason that the last several pages of this thread have been more about race than any other aspect of this case is that there is no new news to report. We have no idea what, if anything is going on behind the scenes. When news come in that have legal implication, no doubt that will be the main topic again.But we've goine round and round on the racial aspect. I realize most of you are sick and tired of talking about it. I know I am. Let's agree to disagree and move on. :thumbup:
 
So maybe we need to start a new thread to discuss the case without the lame race issue dominating a once compelling discussion.
Relax. I've said all I'm going to say about race, at least for now. I don't consider it a lame issue, but I don't see the need to repeat myself. It's out there. People know what I think, I know what they think, there's no need to go on and on about it. At least not for me.

On the other hand, the main reason that the last several pages of this thread have been more about race than any other aspect of this case is that there is no new news to report. We have no idea what, if anything is going on behind the scenes. When news come in that have legal implication, no doubt that will be the main topic again.

But we've goine round and round on the racial aspect. I realize most of you are sick and tired of talking about it. I know I am. Let's agree to disagree and move on. :thumbup:
A noble idea, but the bolded will most likely be impossible.

 
I'm not interested in your :bs: legalese discussion which has no bearing whatsoever to what really happened in this case.
Then why do you keep asking legal questions?
I don't keep asking legal questions. I ask a few pertinent legal questions from time to time, and I appreciate your answers. In this particular instance as to whether or not police would have treated Zimmerman the same way had he been black, your legal opinion has no bearing.
Nor does your speculation.
Of course it doesn't. See my sig.
So you're just pissing in a thread to muck things up? I don't understand why people do thing like this. How about we all strike a deal in this thread. Folks who want to talk about the legal point of view, do it here. Those who want to talk about the race and other ancillary aspects of the case do it in the other thread?Deal? :popcorn:
No deal.I'm not pissing in the thread. I don't believe we can separate the two topics, and any attempt to do takes away from the discussion. Were I a juror at the trial of George Zimmerman, I would eliminate from my mind any speculation about racism of the Sanford police or Mr. Zimmerman or our society in general when it came to determining his legal guilt or innocence, and based on what we know, as I have written now dozens of times, I would acquit him.But I am not a juror. I am posting in an interntet discussion board. I'm free to speculate. It is my FIRM opinion that race is a vital element in this discussion. So I'll continue to bring it up.
Figures. :thumbdown: Can you AT LEAST keep your race comments in the posts talking about race? There's no need to bring it up in every one of your posts when it doesn't apply.
Of course I'll only bring it up when I think it applies. ;)
Yeah...that's the problem. What you "think" rarely lines up with reality. No offense, but the little ;) is annoying and shows you really don't care about genuine discussion on this.
 
. Underscoring this conclusion, a 2008 Gallup Minority Rights and Relations survey found that 67% of blacks said the American justice system was biased against blacks, a viewpoint only 32% of non-Hispanic whites agreed with.
Thanks for posting that Clinton. Lots of key points in that article, this being one of them. I'm part of that 32%. I recognize that we're a minority opinion. I suspect that of the 68% who form the majority, at least half really have never paid attention to the issue or given it any serious thought. (I am excluding of course, everyone here who disagrees with me.) Just my suspicion. One other thing that article points out- the high number of African-Americans who are paying close attention to this case. That indicates to me that the idea that Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson have created this anger is a false notion. Those two exploiters (I think that's an apt description) have done nothing to foment this, or build it up. They are merely chance surfers on a huge wave. They didn't create the wave, they have no means to control the wave. Their only hope is to stand on the surfboard on top the wave until it finishes (or until they crash). I think this has to be clearly understood in order to evaluate their activities.
Maybe not...the "accidental" editing by the major news outlets probably had more to do with getting this wave going. An act which should be criminal in itself.
 
I'm not interested in your :bs: legalese discussion which has no bearing whatsoever to what really happened in this case.
Then why do you keep asking legal questions?
I don't keep asking legal questions. I ask a few pertinent legal questions from time to time, and I appreciate your answers. In this particular instance as to whether or not police would have treated Zimmerman the same way had he been black, your legal opinion has no bearing.
Nor does your speculation.
Of course it doesn't. See my sig.
So you're just pissing in a thread to muck things up? I don't understand why people do thing like this. How about we all strike a deal in this thread. Folks who want to talk about the legal point of view, do it here. Those who want to talk about the race and other ancillary aspects of the case do it in the other thread?Deal? :popcorn:
No deal.I'm not pissing in the thread. I don't believe we can separate the two topics, and any attempt to do takes away from the discussion. Were I a juror at the trial of George Zimmerman, I would eliminate from my mind any speculation about racism of the Sanford police or Mr. Zimmerman or our society in general when it came to determining his legal guilt or innocence, and based on what we know, as I have written now dozens of times, I would acquit him.But I am not a juror. I am posting in an interntet discussion board. I'm free to speculate. It is my FIRM opinion that race is a vital element in this discussion. So I'll continue to bring it up.
Figures. :thumbdown: Can you AT LEAST keep your race comments in the posts talking about race? There's no need to bring it up in every one of your posts when it doesn't apply.
Of course I'll only bring it up when I think it applies. ;)
Yeah...that's the problem. What you "think" rarely lines up with reality. No offense, but the little ;) is annoying and shows you really don't care about genuine discussion on this.
You're right. I DON"T care about genuine discussion about when I bring up race. In fact it bores me. I was trying to lighten the mood.
 
Just realized you live 30mins from me commish... Have we ever talked about that before?
Not sure :hifive: We can start discussion about that now. Seems like all rationale in this thread is lost. Sucks that a bad apple ruins it for everyone else. Where are you?
My office is on monroe rd just above matthews in charlotte. I've moved out of charlotte and into union county (Indian Trail). Originally from western NY, but I've been here for a while. I like it.Fortmill has sure grown a bit in the last 15 years. Pretty nice area these days.
Union County would have been our option had we choosen NC. My wife works at Winthrop and I work for WF in clt, so Fort Mill is sorta in between. It's growing incredibly fast. There are several folks from the FFA really close to our areas....a cornhole should be created.
 

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