Florida boy killed by Neighborhood Watch (1 Viewer)

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

I agree with Tim. I think there's a good chance that he's convicted on the manslaughter charge. An unarmed teenager was killed by an armed man, and many people don't think that's okay despite what Florida's self-defense laws may permit. Moreover, most jurors will not understand the law as well as you do, will not be as analytically minded as you are, and so on.

This made me spit out my orange juice.....I see we're starting to get the "well, the jury was a bunch of morons" ball rolling early in case they go guilty.

Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I was under the impression that Jon is either an attorney or is in law school. If I'm correct, then I think it's reasonable to assume that he's less likely to inject his personal morality into a legal interpretation/decision than the average juror.

I don't know if he's a lawyer or not. But there is post after post during the SYG fiasco suggesting he has no idea what he's talking about from lawyers and non lawyers who can paste the law into the thread.

Oh pul-leeze. No, I am not a lawyer. But the SYG stuff is all over the place. Not one uses the terminology in a consistent way. You can listen to three different people and get three totally different answers on what SYG entices. Believe me, you have more than your share of blunders. BTW, are you still maintaining you have no bias in this case?

This is one reason why us lawyers are being douchey. If you ask a lawyer how SYG applies, the lawyer is going to look at the statute and possibly caselaw applying it. That's nothing a layman can't do, but what laymen generally do is find some type of commentary on the web and post that. Being a lawyer is a lot like being a historian. Primary sources matter more than secondary sources. So if you want to understand a statute, you need to read the statute.

 

[jon_mx]

The prosecution lawyer should be an actor. He is full of crap, but he is good at trying to bring emotions into this and to screw the facts.

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

There is a zero percent chance that it was Martin screaming throughout the 911 tape. Zero.

Its still a judgment call....who do you believe more...treyvons parents or Zimmys?

I guess the eye witness testimony of John Good is irrelevant in your opinion and we should just trust two people's obviously biased opinions of what they heard on a poor quality audio recording with plenty of cross-talk?

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

What's in your heart argument? Your heart pumps blood and GZ's gunshot stopped Trayvon's from doing so. That's where I thought he was going, and this tangent is a disaster IMO.

 

[Rayderr]

Here is how I would rebut MOM's close (which has been pretty good when I've watched it).

"There were only two witnesses to the totality of this incident. One of them is George Zimmerman. The only other possible witness, unfortunately, is Trayvon Martin. He can't tell you what happened. But you are not obligated to accept the self-serving, unsworn, characterization of this confrontation offered by George Zimmerman. We have presented ample evidence that his account is simply not credible.

And absent any credible, unbiased account of this entire confrontation, we are left with the same facts we have had at the beginning. A trained, armed, larger defendant fatally shot an unarmed, smaller teenage victim. Reasonable doubt is not the absence of all doubt. And the defense has offered no credible evidence that Mr. Zimmerman feared death or great bodily harm, much less that reasonably cautious and prudent person in his situation would have."

And as a juror, back in deliberations, this argument would work for me, except for John Good's testimony. Good testified that Martin was on top of Zimmerman, punching him. In the final analysis, that should raise the absence of all doubt to reasonable doubt, and I would still be forced to acquit.

And the 911 screams and the injuries. The preponderance of evidence supports the defense. Pointing to the lack of evidence by the defense is a tactic to try to hide the fact that the case against Zimmerman is even less void (I know...) of evidence.

IF the jury believes it was zimmy yelling and not trey...i think the fact that its not certain who was yelling makes this a non issue

There is a zero percent chance that it was Martin screaming throughout the 911 tape. Zero.

Its still a judgment call....who do you believe more...treyvons parents or Zimmys?

If it's Trayvon, it's a damn good thing that Zimmerman used his Extrasensory perception powers to know that the screams were recorded and that he should say it was him screaming.

 

[timschochet]

The prosecution lawyer should be an actor. He is full of crap, but he is good at trying to bring emotions into this and to screw the facts.

Disagree that he's full of crap, but it's funny that you say he should be an actor, because he reminds me strongly of a young Kevin Costner- from The Untouchables.

 

[The Commish]

I agree with Tim. I think there's a good chance that he's convicted on the manslaughter charge. An unarmed teenager was killed by an armed man, and many people don't think that's okay despite what Florida's self-defense laws may permit. Moreover, most jurors will not understand the law as well as you do, will not be as analytically minded as you are, and so on.

This made me spit out my orange juice.....I see we're starting to get the "well, the jury was a bunch of morons" ball rolling early in case they go guilty.

Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I was under the impression that Jon is either an attorney or is in law school. If I'm correct, then I think it's reasonable to assume that he's less likely to inject his personal morality into a legal interpretation/decision than the average juror.

I don't know if he's a lawyer or not. But there is post after post during the SYG fiasco suggesting he has no idea what he's talking about from lawyers and non lawyers who can paste the law into the thread.

Oh pul-leeze. No, I am not a lawyer. But the SYG stuff is all over the place. Not one uses the terminology in a consistent way. You can listen to three different people and get three totally different answers on what SYG entices. Believe me, you have more than your share of blunders. BTW, are you still maintaining you have no bias in this case?

Other than the 100 times or so I've said I am certainly a "You made bad decisions and got yourself into this" kind of person, sure? I get the need to deflect and make excuses, but this kind of denial is getting in to Jo Jo territory here. I thought you got that when you left the thread and started your own. Guess not. The ONLY reason it's "all over the place" is because you want it to be...the lawyers here were crystal clear why you are completely wrong about it.

 

[Rayderr]

So prosecution is going with "Won't somebody please think of the children"?

 

[BustedKnuckles]

What's in your heart argument? Your heart pumps blood and GZ's gunshot stopped Trayvon's from doing so. That's where I thought he was going, and this tangent is a disaster IMO.

Hes speaking to 6 women who are ,as all women are, drivin by emotion in all aspects of life.

 

[Phil Elliott]

John Guy sounds just like Olsteen!

 

[jon_mx]

Here is there are only two people that seen the whole thing and one of them is dead routine. But he is overplaying it.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

''why did he lie if he did nothing wrong'' BOOM

 

[timschochet]

I think he read you, Ramsay! Good call.

 

[Johnny Bing]

So prosecution is going with "Won't somebody please think of the children"?

What else are they going to go with, they don't have any evidence. They are obviously grasping for straws because they know thier case is not strong.

 

[CrossEyed]

John Guy sounds just like Olsteen!

Meh, not really.

 

[squistion]

The prosecution lawyer should be an actor. He is full of crap, but he is good at trying to bring emotions into this and to screw the facts.

Disagree that he's full of crap, but it's funny that you say he should be an actor, because he reminds me strongly of a young Kevin Costner- from The Untouchables.

OT but all good trial lawyers are generally also good actors - in that they quite often work from a prewritten script and their intended audience is the jury (and in this case a national television audience).

 

[CrossEyed]

So prosecution is going with "Won't somebody please think of the children"?

Yeah, the whole "child" thing is pretty ridiculous.

 

[ArbyMelt]

State going the emotional route, i think thats their best and only strategy, especially with 6 ladies on the jury.

 

[CrossEyed]

So this guy knows what's in everyone's heart? Really?

 

[Phil Elliott]

John Guy sounds just like Olsteen!

Meh, not really.

ok

 

[jon_mx]

State going the emotional route, i think thats their best and only strategy, especially with 6 ladies on the jury.

Yeah, it will be effective for some. But those gun-owning #####es will not fall for it. Bank on that. This is gong to be a hung jury.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

Score 10 for Leeroy, I guess. I like a little rhetorical flourish, but that was a bit strained for my taste.

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

"Oh no he didn't!"

Mr. Guy just made fun of O'Mara's 10 foot long timelines!

 

[ArbyMelt]

This is a trainwrecky by Guy ... "i don't have any evidence, use your heart, your common sense"

 

[The Commish]

State going the emotional route, i think thats their best and only strategy, especially with 6 ladies on the jury.

Yeah, it will be effective for some. But those gun-owning #####es will not fall for it. Bank on that. This is gong to be a hung jury.

Gone from acquittal to hung jury now?? You've been giving Tim a lot of grief in this thread. Do you have any walls in your glass house that aren't shattered at this point?

 

[CrossEyed]

Use your heart? I thought they were supposed to use the evidence.

 

[timschochet]

State going the emotional route, i think thats their best and only strategy, especially with 6 ladies on the jury.

Yeah, it will be effective for some. But those gun-owning #####es will not fall for it. Bank on that. This is gong to be a hung jury.

You said earlier he was going to walk. What changed your mind?

 

[jon_mx]

Other than the 100 times or so I've said I am certainly a "You made bad decisions and got yourself into this" kind of person, sure? I get the need to deflect and make excuses, but this kind of denial is getting in to Jo Jo territory here. I thought you got that when you left the thread and started your own. Guess not. The ONLY reason it's "all over the place" is because you want it to be...the lawyers here were crystal clear why you are completely wrong about it.

Whatever...if you want to be a #####, so be it. I am not going to get into some stupid pissing match with you.

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

Hey Tim -

Does Mr. Guy sound patronizing to you?

 

[Jackstraw]

I just feel sorry for Zimmerman. He has been the true victim in all of this.

http://gawker.com/this-courtesy-of-msnbc-is-trayvon-martins-dead-body-753370712

Our gun laws are a joke. Doubtless Zimm gets off to hunt again. It's a travesty that what went down that night is legal.

Get a gun. Mess with someone till they retaliate. Blow them away. Tell everyone how scared you were. Wash rinse repeat. Legal Shmegal.

I wish I could say I was surprised but nothing surprises me any more in this insane country.

 

[Jackstraw]

So prosecution is going with "Won't somebody please think of the children"?

Yeah, the whole "child" thing is pretty ridiculous.

Check my pic out. Sure looks like a baby to me lying there dead.

 

[timschochet]

Hey Tim -

Does Mr. Guy sound patronizing to you?

Not really, but I don't like his argument so far either. Too emotional.

However, unlike ArbyMelt and others are saying, he is offering some factual arguments here, and I imagine that in the hour to come, there will be a lot more.

 

[jon_mx]

State going the emotional route, i think thats their best and only strategy, especially with 6 ladies on the jury.

Yeah, it will be effective for some. But those gun-owning #####es will not fall for it. Bank on that. This is gong to be a hung jury.

Gone from acquittal to hung jury now?? You've been giving Tim a lot of grief in this thread. Do you have any walls in your glass house that aren't shattered at this point?

I have seen too many people who dig in that Zimmerman is guilty and no matter how the facts show and the law says will not budge. So yes, I have to account for the fact that there will be a couple of these irrational thinking people will be on the jury too.

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

Score 10 for Leeroy, I guess. I like a little rhetorical flourish, but that was a bit strained for my taste.

What did I miss?

 

[Rayderr]

I just feel sorry for Zimmerman. He has been the true victim in all of this.

http://gawker.com/this-courtesy-of-msnbc-is-trayvon-martins-dead-body-753370712

Our gun laws are a joke. Doubtless Zimm gets off to hunt again. It's a travesty that what went down that night is legal.

Get a gun. Mess with someone till they retaliate. Blow them away. Tell everyone how scared you were. Wash rinse repeat. Legal Shmegal.

I wish I could say I was surprised but nothing surprises me any more in this insane country.

True. I've done it 3 times just this week.

 

[tdoss]

Man is it just me or is this guy not only a really poor speaker but he seems to be going out of his way to talk down to the jury? He is extremely patronizing, and when he says "I'm not going to let you get away with..." if I were on the jury that would really piss me off.

Yes...cause that should matter.

TimsCrotch: "I don't care what the evidence says...the attorney looked at me the wrong way...GUILTY!"

 

[timschochet]

So prosecution is going with "Won't somebody please think of the children"?

Yeah, the whole "child" thing is pretty ridiculous.

It's not ridiculous at all. My oldest daughter is 13. 4 years from now, she will still be a child. You have a son- will you regard him as an adult at age 17?

 

[BoltzNBrew]

Prosecution tells a made up story and expects everyone to believe it? Where is any evidence to back up this story?

 

[CrossEyed]

Prosecution tells a made up story and expects everyone to believe it? Where is any evidence to back up this story?

No, no, no, it's not about the evidence, it's about their heart...and the child.

 

[timschochet]

Man is it just me or is this guy not only a really poor speaker but he seems to be going out of his way to talk down to the jury? He is extremely patronizing, and when he says "I'm not going to let you get away with..." if I were on the jury that would really piss me off.

Yes...cause that should matter.

TimsCrotch: "I don't care what the evidence says...the attorney looked at me the wrong way...GUILTY!"

If you're going to offer criticism then I advise not cherrypicking which posts of mine to respond to. You know very well that I would vote to acquit this guy. Stop trying to imply I mean things that are simply false.

 

[ArbyMelt]

Guy is not presenting facts, he is asking questions to the jury, much like the defense should be doing to raise reasonable doubt, not the state.

 

[jon_mx]

Prosecution tells a made up story and expects everyone to believe it? Where is any evidence to back up this story?

No, no, no, it's not about the evidence, it's about their heart...and the child.

And with an all women jury, it will be effective for some. But not all.

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

Prosecution tells a made up story and expects everyone to believe it? Where is any evidence to back up this story?

You must not have a heart. Please change your name to TinMan.

 

[timschochet]

Prosecution tells a made up story and expects everyone to believe it? Where is any evidence to back up this story?

Listen. He's offering it.

 

[Todem]

Guy - "He shot TM because he wanted to"

And here is where the division on this thread...this case...everything comes down to.

What do you believe? (we know what Tim believes...GZ is a racisit murderer)

But that is not what decides the case. Did the state prove GZ wanted to shoot TM? And did he in cold blood?

NO!!!!!!

This is crazy. I can't believe we had this trial. I still can't believe they are trying to convict him of murder. Common sense says this was a tragedy.....and we will never know what really happened. Most of the evidence points to self defense and this man feared for his life or serious injury. I really am perplexed at what The State of Florida did here.

Common sense about the name of a street?

I am a long time board memeber in my community.....I don't know the name of every street in my neighborhood. So that makes me a liar if I need to look for the name of a street? That is a clear sign of a liar? Come on. This is what the state is pointing to do point out a lie?

This case smells. Smells badly. For the prosocution.

If common sense is used here.

Not guilty.

 

[jon_mx]

Prosecution tells a made up story and expects everyone to believe it? Where is any evidence to back up this story?

Listen. He's offering it.

He is not telling a story. He is poking holes in Zimmerman story.

 

[Todem]

Prosecution tells a made up story and expects everyone to believe it? Where is any evidence to back up this story?

Listen. He's offering it.

Assumptive, reaching and not concrete at all.

This case is garbage.

 

[BoltzNBrew]

Prosecution tells a made up story and expects everyone to believe it? Where is any evidence to back up this story?

No, no, no, it's not about the evidence, it's about their heart...and the child.

Any they keep calling GZ a liar and nothing but prosecutions idea of why it can't possibly have happend that way and again no facts to back it up. It is possible to hold someones nose and not get DNA under your nails.

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

He just called Zimmerman, Mr. StayPuff - OBJECTION!

 

[CrossEyed]

My wife was questioning the whole street name thing. We've lived in our neighborhood for 7 years and walk regularly. So asked her to tell me the name of the street that goes past the pond. She couldn't.