Florida boy killed by Neighborhood Watch (4 Viewers)

[jon_mx]

I want to clarify some points I tried to make earlier:

1. I believe that George Zimmerman initiated the confrontation between himself and Trayvon Martin. Even if he did not, I believe that George Zimmerman was the person responsible for that confrontation.

2. I do not believe George Zimmerman was ever seriously injured. I do not believe he ever reasonably feared for his life, or feared serious injury.

These two points are the main reasons I believe Zimmerman committed manslaughter. If Martin was the one who confronted Zimmerman, and Zimmerman truly an reasonably believed his life or serious injury was at risk, then he had the right to defend himself- I want to make clear that I do NOT dispute this argument- only the facts of what exactly happened here.

Have you ever been in a fight where someone was on top of you and dropping punches MMA-style?

No. And based on the state's ME's testimony, neither was George Zimmerman. John Good saw what he saw, but he did not see Martin seriously inflicting pain to GZ. The injuries were extremely minor, and not enough to warrant reasonable fear of death or serious injury. That is my opinion.

I didn't say Martin was doing a good drop dropping punches, I'm saying that its a scary place to be. Beyond that, there are eye witnesses and physical evidence that tell us that Martin was on top of Zimmerman, so I don't see how you can dispute that.

But either way, someone on top of you dropping punches like that IS the definition of "reasonable fear of serious injury and possibly death". Don't believe me? Put the back of your head on cement and have someone punch you in the face and see what happens...

I don't think he was punched more than once or twice, and possibly not even that. I don't think his head was on the cement- it might have slightly grazed the cement. None of what you wrote is at all consistent with Zimmerman's lack of injuries.

But again, I do not dispute your argument- IF Zimmerman was receiving the punishment you state, he had the right to defend himself (so long as he did not initiate the confrontation.) But I dispute your interpretation of what happened.

The big problem with Treyvon was he just doesnt punch very hard...if he could punch worth a damn he would have just knocked George ''softy'' Zimmerman out cold and that would have been it...end of story...too bad he hits like a chick

Trayvon had another problem, he only had 4 pairs of hands. One pair of hands to punch Zimmerman with, one pair of hands to straddle Zimmeman to the ground, knocking his head against the concrete 25-30 times, one pair of hands to cover Zimmerman's mouth and nose, and one pair of hands to reach for Zimmerman's gun. It wasn't enough!

let's look at this again with a basic knowledge of fighting/MMA/anatomy and some logic:

1. "one pair of hands to punch Zimmerman with". OK, with you here.

2. "one pair of hands to straddle Zimmerman to the ground"... Um... I don't know what "straddle" means in TimLand, but here in the real world it has to do with legs, not hands... Also, the knocking his head into the ground 25-30 times would be done by hands #1 when punching him (everytime you are punched, your head moves backwards, if there is cement behind your head, you hit the cement... Watch an MMA fight, their heads hit the mat when they are getting ground-and-pounded)

3. "one pair to cover Zimmerman's mouth and nose"... How was Zimmerman calling for help if this was happening?

4. "one pair to reach for Zimmerman's gun". Who's to say that Treyvon didn't realize there was a gun and stopped punching to reach for it? Plus, Treyvon doesn't need to reach for the gun to be threatening Zimmerman's life, the position they were in (Treyvon on top punching downwards) is sufficiently lethal if continued...

#3 is the first thing you've written that makes any real sense. It's an excellent question, one that I've asked several times in this thread, and never received a satisfactory answer.

Did you not hear the screaming????? Some of it sounds smothered and then i gets clearer. Perhaps, Martin was smothering Zimmerman at first and then went to punching. It is really not that hard to explain it. Your hatred of Zimmerman makes you come to some of the most ridiculous conclusions. You are biased beyond belief.

 

[timschochet]

I want to clarify some points I tried to make earlier:

1. I believe that George Zimmerman initiated the confrontation between himself and Trayvon Martin. Even if he did not, I believe that George Zimmerman was the person responsible for that confrontation.

2. I do not believe George Zimmerman was ever seriously injured. I do not believe he ever reasonably feared for his life, or feared serious injury.

These two points are the main reasons I believe Zimmerman committed manslaughter. If Martin was the one who confronted Zimmerman, and Zimmerman truly an reasonably believed his life or serious injury was at risk, then he had the right to defend himself- I want to make clear that I do NOT dispute this argument- only the facts of what exactly happened here.

Have you ever been in a fight where someone was on top of you and dropping punches MMA-style?

No. And based on the state's ME's testimony, neither was George Zimmerman. John Good saw what he saw, but he did not see Martin seriously inflicting pain to GZ. The injuries were extremely minor, and not enough to warrant reasonable fear of death or serious injury. That is my opinion.

I didn't say Martin was doing a good drop dropping punches, I'm saying that its a scary place to be. Beyond that, there are eye witnesses and physical evidence that tell us that Martin was on top of Zimmerman, so I don't see how you can dispute that.

But either way, someone on top of you dropping punches like that IS the definition of "reasonable fear of serious injury and possibly death". Don't believe me? Put the back of your head on cement and have someone punch you in the face and see what happens...

I don't think he was punched more than once or twice, and possibly not even that. I don't think his head was on the cement- it might have slightly grazed the cement. None of what you wrote is at all consistent with Zimmerman's lack of injuries.

But again, I do not dispute your argument- IF Zimmerman was receiving the punishment you state, he had the right to defend himself (so long as he did not initiate the confrontation.) But I dispute your interpretation of what happened.

The big problem with Treyvon was he just doesnt punch very hard...if he could punch worth a damn he would have just knocked George ''softy'' Zimmerman out cold and that would have been it...end of story...too bad he hits like a chick

Trayvon had another problem, he only had 4 pairs of hands. One pair of hands to punch Zimmerman with, one pair of hands to straddle Zimmeman to the ground, knocking his head against the concrete 25-30 times, one pair of hands to cover Zimmerman's mouth and nose, and one pair of hands to reach for Zimmerman's gun. It wasn't enough!

let's look at this again with a basic knowledge of fighting/MMA/anatomy and some logic:

1. "one pair of hands to punch Zimmerman with". OK, with you here.

2. "one pair of hands to straddle Zimmerman to the ground"... Um... I don't know what "straddle" means in TimLand, but here in the real world it has to do with legs, not hands... Also, the knocking his head into the ground 25-30 times would be done by hands #1 when punching him (everytime you are punched, your head moves backwards, if there is cement behind your head, you hit the cement... Watch an MMA fight, their heads hit the mat when they are getting ground-and-pounded)

3. "one pair to cover Zimmerman's mouth and nose"... How was Zimmerman calling for help if this was happening?

4. "one pair to reach for Zimmerman's gun". Who's to say that Treyvon didn't realize there was a gun and stopped punching to reach for it? Plus, Treyvon doesn't need to reach for the gun to be threatening Zimmerman's life, the position they were in (Treyvon on top punching downwards) is sufficiently lethal if continued...

#3 is the first thing you've written that makes any real sense. It's an excellent question, one that I've asked several times in this thread, and never received a satisfactory answer.

Did you not hear the screaming????? Some of it sounds smothered and then i gets clearer. Perhaps, Martin was smothering Zimmerman at first and then went to punching. It is really not that hard to explain it. Your hatred of Zimmerman makes you come to some of the most ridiculous conclusions. You are biased beyond belief.

You have assumed all along that it is Zimmerman screaming. I've never been fully convinced of this. I don't know who was screaming.

 

[drummer]

Is the sewing done yet?

 

[Witz]

Did you not hear the screaming????? Some of it sounds smothered and then i gets clearer. Perhaps, Martin was smothering Zimmerman at first and then went to punching. It is really not that hard to explain it. Your hatred of Zimmerman makes you come to some of the most ridiculous conclusions. You are biased beyond belief.

You have assumed all along that it is Zimmerman screaming. I've never been fully convinced of this. I don't know who was screaming.

So in your mind John Good is a liar?

 

[17seconds]

Honest question from someone who hasn't followed the trial at all and has only a passing knowledge of the facts:

How does someone who is packing heat end up on the ground with punches being rained down on him by an unarmed 150 pound kid? Was this some sort of Cato-style sneak attack where Zimmerman didn't have an opportunity to pull his weapon and tell the kid to back the #### off?

Because he is a wuss. Even though he trained in MMA. The answer to your second question is, yes, that's his story. He was following the orders of the police on the phone and quietly walking back to his truck when a kid lept out of the bushes and started beating him within an inch of his life.

 

[Charlie Frown]

Abraham, we're not supposed to give them reparations and we're not supposed to feel guilty. We're supposed to try to understand, and help where it makes sense. Personally I think more money toward education would be a good place to start. I don't think Republicans in Congress should be cutting off food stamps just when people need it most.

And I don't believe racists like George Zimmerman (and yes, I believe he is a racist!) should be allowed to shoot an unarmed black teen without repercussions. He should be in jail for manslaughter right now. Our society is better than this.

God...I know I'm gonna hate myself for this...

Why do you think Zim is a racist? Give some examples please...wait...scratch that...give some VALID examples please...

1. He got out of his car.

2. TBA

He shot a black kid?

 

[jonessed]

EDIT: Anderson Cooper asks you if you'd have GZ on your neighborhood watch and you don't immediately say "No"? WTF is with that? Yes, please let's have the guy on our streets with a propensity to kill teenagers when he gets into trouble.

I'd like to have GZ on my neighborhood watch. Guy was on top of it. The woman who suffered the home invasion made him sound like a pretty good watch captain.

Really? The guy has made choices that help put him in life/death situations without any means to defend himself other than his gun (if we indeed believe he's an out of shape dough boy with no fighting skills). Why would you want him on your watch?

What choices? I don't think getting out of his car is a big deal. I don't think it's a big deal even if he followed Martin and asked him what he was up to. You;d prefer a watch captain that didn't look out for potential crimes?

So you're sitting here telling me that him getting out of his car or following Martin didn't help get to the point where they were in a scuffle and Zimmerman ends up shooting this kid? Is it your belief that if he stays in his car and lets the cops do their job, this still happens? As to your question on my preference, my preference of the neighborhood watch is for them to observe, call the cops and let the cops do their job. That's my preference.

Why is getting out of his car at all relevant?

 

[parasaurolophus]

I see the anti zimmerman crowd has reached a new level today.

 

[Mr Two Cents]

What is wrong with me telling what I think happened? How is it any different from all the people here who have parroted Zimmerman's tale as if it were Gospel?I am not on the jury. Had I been on the jury, I would have voted to acquit. But the FFA is not a legal forum, and I am not bound by a restriction of reasonable doubt, not here. I can write what I think happened, even if I can't prove it. Over and over again I have provided reasons in this thread for believing as I do. They are not emotional, they are rational based on the known facts. Based on the known facts, I believe the two points I wrote above.

Nothing is wrong with you writing what you think happened. But let's not pretend that your beliefs are based on any "known facts". At best, the known facts get us to "we have no idea what happened or who started the fight". If you want to include hearsay, thought processes, etc., then you can only reasonably get to the same "we don't know" or "Martin was more likely to have initiated the confrontation". Nothing known at this time could rationally get anyone to "Zimmerman started the confrontation".

That's just not true. I think it's reasonable to assume that Zimmerman is a liar. He lied about his reason for getting out of the car. He lied about what he did after the operator suggested he didn't need to follow Martin. He lied about Martin telling him he was going to die tonight. He lied about Martin slamming his head against the pavement 25-30 times. He lied about Martin covering his face and mouth. He lied about Martin attempting to seize the gun.

Now I can't prove any of that. But the known evidence suggests all of it is true. If it's reasonable to assume that he lied about all or most of these points, why wouldn't it be also reasonable to assume he lied about who started the confrontation?

Why so you ignore ALL the evidence, your white guilt is far beyond anything I have ever witnessed.

It is disturbing.

 

[cstu]

Honest question from someone who hasn't followed the trial at all and has only a passing knowledge of the facts:

How does someone who is packing heat end up on the ground with punches being rained down on him by an unarmed 150 pound kid? Was this some sort of Cato-style sneak attack where Zimmerman didn't have an opportunity to pull his weapon and tell the kid to back the #### off?

Because he is a wuss. Even though he trained in MMA. The answer to your second question is, yes, that's his story. He was following the orders of the police on the phone and quietly walking back to his truck when a kid lept out of the bushes and started beating him within an inch of his life.

What GZ said was he walking back to his car when TM came up to him and said 'You got a problem with me?". GZ answered no, TZ said "You do now" and clocked him.

 

[Mr Two Cents]

Since Zimmerman's mother was white he is a "white Hispanic"

Since Obama's mother was white is he a "white negro"

And here I thought we had our first black president, I guess he is only our first white black president.

 

[cstu]

Since Zimmerman's mother was white he is a "white Hispanic"

Since Obama's mother was white is he a "white negro"

And here I thought we had our first black president, I guess he is only our first white black president.

If Barack wants to keep that title he'd better not kill a black guy.

 

[Mr Two Cents]

Also since "Precious" said that the "N" word is only racist if it ends in "er" and is not racist if it ends in "a" and that white boys can call themselves the "N" word if it ends in "A" can we not use the "A" "N" word on these boards since it is not have a racial intention?

If so I would like to call Tim my "N" word with an "A".

 

[avoiding injuries]

Did you not hear the screaming????? Some of it sounds smothered and then i gets clearer. Perhaps, Martin was smothering Zimmerman at first and then went to punching. It is really not that hard to explain it. Your hatred of Zimmerman makes you come to some of the most ridiculous conclusions. You are biased beyond belief.

You have assumed all along that it is Zimmerman screaming. I've never been fully convinced of this. I don't know who was screaming.

So in your mind John Good is a liar?

Oh yeah, John Good. Probably the most reliable witness and unbiased. I forgot about his testimony.

 

[CurlyNight]

Rachael Janteal has been offered help to graduate HS, pass SAT, and a scholarship to college. I'm happy for her that someone is willing to help her turn her life around.

 

[jon_mx]

You have assumed all along that it is Zimmerman screaming. I've never been fully convinced of this. I don't know who was screaming.

Tim, you know good and well there is no reason in hell that Martin had to be screaming for over a minute. The only person it made any sense for to be screaming like that for that long is Zimmerman. And the best eye-witness confirms it. The evidence and logic is 99.99999% conclusive and yet you can not even concede the point. Pathetic.

 

[Rayderr]

Rachael Janteal has been offered help to graduate HS, pass SAT, and a scholarship to college. I'm happy for her that someone is willing to help her turn her life around.

I am a bit surprised that it has to be at a "historically black college."

"Ok, I finally got my GED. Now I want to go to Florida State."

"What?!? F### you! Deal's off the table!"

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

You have assumed all along that it is Zimmerman screaming. I've never been fully convinced of this. I don't know who was screaming.

Tim, you know good and well there is no reason in hell that Martin had to be screaming for over a minute. The only person it made any sense for to be screaming like that for that long is Zimmerman. And the best eye-witness confirms it. The evidence and logic is 99.99999% conclusive and yet you can not even concede the point. Pathetic.

Jenna L's testimony also said there was only 1 person screaming.

BDLR asked her how did she know there weren't two people screaming?

Jenna L: Because it was the same guy, it was only 1 guy screaming.

 

[Ballstein]

I'm enjoying watching the disbelief and frustration on msnbc and cnn. They are angry and frustrated because they could not control the outcome of this trial.

 

[Billy Bats]

You have assumed all along that it is Zimmerman screaming. I've never been fully convinced of this. I don't know who was screaming.

Tim, you know good and well there is no reason in hell that Martin had to be screaming for over a minute. The only person it made any sense for to be screaming like that for that long is Zimmerman. And the best eye-witness confirms it. The evidence and logic is 99.99999% conclusive and yet you can not even concede the point. Pathetic.

But the screaming stopped right after the gunshot so it had to be TM screaming. Amirite??

 

[Ballstein]

You have assumed all along that it is Zimmerman screaming. I've never been fully convinced of this. I don't know who was screaming.

Tim, you know good and well there is no reason in hell that Martin had to be screaming for over a minute. The only person it made any sense for to be screaming like that for that long is Zimmerman. And the best eye-witness confirms it. The evidence and logic is 99.99999% conclusive and yet you can not even concede the point. Pathetic.

But the screaming stopped right after the gunshot so it had to be TM screaming. Amirite??

who ever said the screamer had to be the victim?

 

[jon_mx]

You have assumed all along that it is Zimmerman screaming. I've never been fully convinced of this. I don't know who was screaming.

Tim, you know good and well there is no reason in hell that Martin had to be screaming for over a minute. The only person it made any sense for to be screaming like that for that long is Zimmerman. And the best eye-witness confirms it. The evidence and logic is 99.99999% conclusive and yet you can not even concede the point. Pathetic.

But the screaming stopped right after the gunshot so it had to be TM screaming. Amirite??

Yeah. It had nothing to do with the guy punching him finally stopped. I can't even believed the prosecution floated that argument.

 

[tommyboy]

this reminds me of 2000 when Bush beat Al Gore. let it go.

 

[CurlyNight]

Rachael Janteal has been offered help to graduate HS, pass SAT, and a scholarship to college. I'm happy for her that someone is willing to help her turn her life around.

I am a bit surprised that it has to be at a "historically black college."

"Ok, I finally got my GED. Now I want to go to Florida State."

"What?!? F### you! Deal's off the table!"

Maybe she would feel safer/more comfortable there after such a highly emotionally charged case starring her on the witness stand.

 

[Cripster]

Screaming would have stopped after shooting regardless of who was screaming.

 

[squistion]

A young, black man named Alex Fraser sent an open letter on Facebook to George Zimmerman:

https://www.facebook.com/alexandercfraser/posts/10100600518857296

Dear George Zimmerman,

For the rest of your life you are now going to feel what its like to be a black man in America.

You will feel people stare at you. Judging you for what you think are unfair reasons. You will lose out on getting jobs for something you feel is outside of your control. You will believe yourself to be an upstanding citizen and wonder why people choose to not see that.

People will cross the street when they see you coming. They will call you hurtful names. It will drive you so insane some days that you'll want to scream at the top of your lungs. But you will have to wake up the next day, put on firm look and push through life.

I bet you never thought that by shooting a black male you'd end up inheriting all of his struggles.

Enjoy your "freedom."

Sincerely,

A black male who could've been Trayvon Martin

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

A young, black man named Alex Fraser sent an open letter on Facebook to George Zimmerman:

https://www.facebook.com/alexandercfraser/posts/10100600518857296

Dear George Zimmerman,

For the rest of your life you are now going to feel what its like to be a black man in America.

You will feel people stare at you. Judging you for what you think are unfair reasons. You will lose out on getting jobs for something you feel is outside of your control. You will believe yourself to be an upstanding citizen and wonder why people choose to not see that.

People will cross the street when they see you coming. They will call you hurtful names. It will drive you so insane some days that you'll want to scream at the top of your lungs. But you will have to wake up the next day, put on firm look and push through life.

I bet you never thought that by shooting a black male you'd end up inheriting all of his struggles.

Enjoy your "freedom."

Sincerely,

A black male who could've been Trayvon Martin

According to DiDi, that is all he ever wanted to feel.

 

[omally]

Since Zimmerman's mother was white he is a "white Hispanic"

Since Obama's mother was white is he a "white negro"

And here I thought we had our first black president, I guess he is only our first white black president.

Zimmerman's mother is Peruvian. His father is white.

 

[omally]

Also since "Precious" said that the "N" word is only racist if it ends in "er" and is not racist if it ends in "a" and that white boys can call themselves the "N" word if it ends in "A" can we not use the "A" "N" word on these boards since it is not have a racial intention?

If so I would like to call Tim my "N" word with an "A".

Calling her Precious is mean, but a lot of things you have said in this thread are.

 

[The Commish]

EDIT: Anderson Cooper asks you if you'd have GZ on your neighborhood watch and you don't immediately say "No"? WTF is with that? Yes, please let's have the guy on our streets with a propensity to kill teenagers when he gets into trouble.

I'd like to have GZ on my neighborhood watch. Guy was on top of it. The woman who suffered the home invasion made him sound like a pretty good watch captain.

Really? The guy has made choices that help put him in life/death situations without any means to defend himself other than his gun (if we indeed believe he's an out of shape dough boy with no fighting skills). Why would you want him on your watch?

What choices? I don't think getting out of his car is a big deal. I don't think it's a big deal even if he followed Martin and asked him what he was up to. You;d prefer a watch captain that didn't look out for potential crimes?

So you're sitting here telling me that him getting out of his car or following Martin didn't help get to the point where they were in a scuffle and Zimmerman ends up shooting this kid? Is it your belief that if he stays in his car and lets the cops do their job, this still happens? As to your question on my preference, my preference of the neighborhood watch is for them to observe, call the cops and let the cops do their job. That's my preference.

Why is getting out of his car at all relevant?

I guess in Florida, you're right. Good point.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

A young, black man named Alex Fraser sent an open letter on Facebook to George Zimmerman:

https://www.facebook.com/alexandercfraser/posts/10100600518857296

Dear George Zimmerman,

For the rest of your life you are now going to feel what its like to be a black man in America.

You will feel people stare at you. Judging you for what you think are unfair reasons. You will lose out on getting jobs for something you feel is outside of your control. You will believe yourself to be an upstanding citizen and wonder why people choose to not see that.

People will cross the street when they see you coming. They will call you hurtful names. It will drive you so insane some days that you'll want to scream at the top of your lungs. But you will have to wake up the next day, put on firm look and push through life.

I bet you never thought that by shooting a black male you'd end up inheriting all of his struggles.

Enjoy your "freedom."

Sincerely,

A black male who could've been Trayvon Martin

pretty powerful message

 

[renesauz]

I want to clarify some points I tried to make earlier:

1. I believe that George Zimmerman initiated the confrontation between himself and Trayvon Martin. Even if he did not, I believe that George Zimmerman was the person responsible for that confrontation.

2. I do not believe George Zimmerman was ever seriously injured. I do not believe he ever reasonably feared for his life, or feared serious injury.

These two points are the main reasons I believe Zimmerman committed manslaughter. If Martin was the one who confronted Zimmerman, and Zimmerman truly an reasonably believed his life or serious injury was at risk, then he had the right to defend himself- I want to make clear that I do NOT dispute this argument- only the facts of what exactly happened here.

Timslation:: I dont dispute Zimmerman's story, I just dispute it.

See the thing about fear of grave bodily injury or death is that it is in the eye of the beholder. I wouldnt have been afraid of Trayvon Martin. But I'm not a shrimp like Zimmerman. However, if Micheal Clarke Duncan confronted me in a situtation similar to the events of this case then I would be afraid of grave bodily injury or death.

No I DO dispute Zimmerman's story- I dispute it greatly. I don't necessarily dispute his argument. In other words, if you were to describe Zimmerman's narrative to me and ask, "Suppose this happened- would this guy be guilty of a crime?" My answer would be no.

See the problem with your line of thinking is that you ascribe motive to Zimmerman that you have no way of knowing. You dont know what it would take to be in fear for his life. His threshold may be very different than yours or mine. You also "believe" that Zimmerman initiated that confrontation and even if he didnt it was still his fault. No facts in evidence suggest this. So again it's Timlogic over the evidence at hand. So because you assert your opinions over the things we do know about what happened that night YOU arrive at a belief that Zimmerman committed manslaughter.

So on one hand you accept the plausibility of his argument and on the other hand you dismiss it even though there is no evidence to make your "belief" plausible. So you assert the primacy of your beliefs over the evidence and facts we do have.

This is TIMLOGIC!

What is wrong with me telling what I think happened? How is it any different from all the people here who have parroted Zimmerman's tale as if it were Gospel?

I am not on the jury. Had I been on the jury, I would have voted to acquit. But the FFA is not a legal forum, and I am not bound by a restriction of reasonable doubt, not here. I can write what I think happened, even if I can't prove it. Over and over again I have provided reasons in this thread for believing as I do. They are not emotional, they are rational based on the known facts. Based on the known facts, I believe the two points I wrote above.

TIm,

you can call them logical all you want, but the truth is they are strongly colored by your preconceptions and beliefs about our culture in general. You have taken what really is a logical possibility and treated it as if it's a probability when every bit of evidence and common sense points to it being IMPROBABLE. You have enough reasonability to conclude you'd have to aquit, but still have trouble acknowledging what most accept as the probable scenario as being anything more than a remote possibility.

Odds Zimmerman started the physical fight are about 5% for most of us, in your mind they are more like 90%.

Odds Martin started the physical fight are about 90% for most of us, in your mind it's more like 5%. (The missing 5% are for other cases where both started)

You have a strong belief that the black man is oppressed and the system stacked heavily against him, and it distorts likelihoods in your mind. Your convinced race played a role and Zimmerman was prejudiced, despite evidence to the contrary, and I can only conclude that this is because you simply WANT race to be a factor. You see bias and prejudice where it doesn't exist because you long ago decided that it was rampant.

 

[Todd Andrews]

As a gun owner, I believe Zimmerman belongs in jail.

And I am positive he will get a seven figure book/life rights deal. He will be set for life and a sought after speaker and public figure in certain circles.

 

[poopdawg]

Has anyone heard about this case yet? Did a search for it and found nothing. Because our horrible media could give a #### if it doesn't get ratings. Never made it past local news....

http://www.abcnews4.com/story/18829994/he-was-a

 

[ConstruxBoy]

What is wrong with me telling what I think happened? How is it any different from all the people here who have parroted Zimmerman's tale as if it were Gospel?I am not on the jury. Had I been on the jury, I would have voted to acquit. But the FFA is not a legal forum, and I am not bound by a restriction of reasonable doubt, not here. I can write what I think happened, even if I can't prove it. Over and over again I have provided reasons in this thread for believing as I do. They are not emotional, they are rational based on the known facts. Based on the known facts, I believe the two points I wrote above.

Nothing is wrong with you writing what you think happened. But let's not pretend that your beliefs are based on any "known facts". At best, the known facts get us to "we have no idea what happened or who started the fight". If you want to include hearsay, thought processes, etc., then you can only reasonably get to the same "we don't know" or "Martin was more likely to have initiated the confrontation". Nothing known at this time could rationally get anyone to "Zimmerman started the confrontation".

That's just not true. I think it's reasonable to assume that Zimmerman is a liar. He lied about his reason for getting out of the car. He lied about what he did after the operator suggested he didn't need to follow Martin. He lied about Martin telling him he was going to die tonight. He lied about Martin slamming his head against the pavement 25-30 times. He lied about Martin covering his face and mouth. He lied about Martin attempting to seize the gun.

Now I can't prove any of that. But the known evidence suggests all of it is true. If it's reasonable to assume that he lied about all or most of these points, why wouldn't it be also reasonable to assume he lied about who started the confrontation?

 

[Billy Bats]

You have assumed all along that it is Zimmerman screaming. I've never been fully convinced of this. I don't know who was screaming.

Tim, you know good and well there is no reason in hell that Martin had to be screaming for over a minute. The only person it made any sense for to be screaming like that for that long is Zimmerman. And the best eye-witness confirms it. The evidence and logic is 99.99999% conclusive and yet you can not even concede the point. Pathetic.

But the screaming stopped right after the gunshot so it had to be TM screaming. Amirite??

who ever said the screamer had to be the victim?

The DA lady in charge of the prosecution. They were riding on that "fact".

 

[dickey moe]

I guess if some of you think it's cool - even preferable under the right circumstances - for your neighborhood watch to kill people then I got nothing for you.

Who's said anything about cool or preferable? The standard here is "was it legal?" under the circumstances.

 

[dickey moe]

A young, black man named Alex Fraser sent an open letter on Facebook to George Zimmerman:

https://www.facebook.com/alexandercfraser/posts/10100600518857296

Dear George Zimmerman,

For the rest of your life you are now going to feel what its like to be a black man in America.

You will feel people stare at you. Judging you for what you think are unfair reasons. You will lose out on getting jobs for something you feel is outside of your control. You will believe yourself to be an upstanding citizen and wonder why people choose to not see that.

People will cross the street when they see you coming. They will call you hurtful names. It will drive you so insane some days that you'll want to scream at the top of your lungs. But you will have to wake up the next day, put on firm look and push through life.

I bet you never thought that by shooting a black male you'd end up inheriting all of his struggles.

Enjoy your "freedom."

Sincerely,

A black male who could've been Trayvon Martin

Does that make you feel better?

 

[Thunderlips]

I'm fine with the courts decision as it is kind of hard to the get the other side of the story from a dead man....but if there were a verbal altercation between these two guys and Zimmerman initiated a physical confrontation (say Martin told Zim to go F himself, started to walk away and Zimmerman grabbed his shoulder), started to get his ### whipped and then in the moment shot Martin. What would that be in the legal sense under these FL laws?

 

[jonessed]

A young, black man named Alex Fraser sent an open letter on Facebook to George Zimmerman:

https://www.facebook.com/alexandercfraser/posts/10100600518857296

Dear George Zimmerman,

For the rest of your life you are now going to feel what its like to be a black man in America.

You will feel people stare at you. Judging you for what you think are unfair reasons. You will lose out on getting jobs for something you feel is outside of your control. You will believe yourself to be an upstanding citizen and wonder why people choose to not see that.

People will cross the street when they see you coming. They will call you hurtful names. It will drive you so insane some days that you'll want to scream at the top of your lungs. But you will have to wake up the next day, put on firm look and push through life.

I bet you never thought that by shooting a black male you'd end up inheriting all of his struggles.

Enjoy your "freedom."

Sincerely,

A black male who could've been Trayvon Martin

What a load of crap.

 

[drummer]

A young, black man named Alex Fraser sent an open letter on Facebook to George Zimmerman:

https://www.facebook.com/alexandercfraser/posts/10100600518857296

Dear George Zimmerman,

For the rest of your life you are now going to feel what its like to be a black man in America.

What, he is marrying a Kardashian now?

 

[BustedKnuckles]

Imagine if i pulled up in my car in front of your house ...waited until you came out and followed you in your car .You park your car and i park next to you.You get out and go into the mall .I follow closely behind you ...i am everywhere you turn...just following you. You go into the mens room and i follow.I just stand there looking at you .I follow you into each store .You finally walk up to me and ask what my problem is and i simply say im not doing anything illegal. I continue to follow you out to your car and follow you back to your house .Again i just sit and wait until i can follow you again.

Now i ask you,would it matter to you that im not breaking any laws? Where does following turn into stalking? Whats the line that one has to cross over? Following someone behind a dark building at night or following someone all over town ? Im just curious because it seems to be very insignificant to a lot of zimmerman fans?

 

[Christo]

Imagine if i pulled up in my car in front of your house ...waited until you came out and followed you in your car .You park your car and i park next to you.You get out and go into the mall .I follow closely behind you ...i am everywhere you turn...just following you. You go into the mens room and i follow.I just stand there looking at you .I follow you into each store .You finally walk up to me and ask what my problem is and i simply say im not doing anything illegal. I continue to follow you out to your car and follow you back to your house .Again i just sit and wait until i can follow you again.

Now i ask you,would it matter to you that im not breaking any laws? Where does following turn into stalking? Whats the line that one has to cross over? Following someone behind a dark building at night or following someone all over town ? Im just curious because it seems to be very insignificant to a lot of zimmerman fans?

A lot of questions to not ask the right one.

 

[The Commish]

I'm fine with the courts decision as it is kind of hard to the get the other side of the story from a dead man....but if there were a verbal altercation between these two guys and Zimmerman initiated a physical confrontation (say Martin told Zim to go F himself, started to walk away and Zimmerman grabbed his shoulder), started to get his ### whipped and then in the moment shot Martin. What would that be in the legal sense under these FL laws?

In Florida, it wouldn't matter too much. If at any time he felt he was going to die or sustain great bodily harm, he's free to shoot. What will be interesting is the court case where two people get in a fight like this and they both live and both claim self defense....then what??

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

So how do you fix that? Go into those areas that are dilapidated and throw good money at the schools at the detriment to the schools you're paying for now? Or we all pay even more on top of what we are now? Or raise the taxes and fees of the areas that need the better schools?

I'm just not seeing your plan yet, Tim...count me on board if you can figure it out.

How about we start with ending the war on drugs so that the good jobs are found inside the school and not on the street?

I think we need to do something to reorganize where mass transit goes such that people "trapped" in places with no opportunity can get to jobs that are just a few miles a way, but I don't know how much this would work.

Then there is a little thing called Guaranteed Income which would mean you don't need to avoid bettering oneself to keep welfare benefits (and this means all need based welfare not just "welfare"). While the net effect on the raw numbers would likely be a wash, this would also strengthen families as you don't need to hide income by avoiding marriage to keep benefits. (The unexpected result higher divorce rates in one of the four major studies was essentially one the reasons this idea was killed off by its cheerleader in the 70s, but upon further research even being temporary the guaranteed income enabled those in bad relationships the freedom to get out.)

Then, sorry but we will still need to wait it out for a few generations as you don't just change culture destroyed over centuries with programs.

This. There are lots of ways to help inner city schools, but simply repeating all the things we've been doing for the last four decades won't work.

* Change the social safety net to a B.I.G. instead of the current welfare/food stamp/unemployment morass. Stop penalizing people for working.

* End the war on drugs. Stop penalizing people for doing something (marijuana) that's far less dangerous and addictive than things that are legal (cigarettes, alcohol).

* Give school management the ability to hire and fire whoever they want. Stop penalizing students (with a poor teacher) for a previous hiring mistake made by the school.

With regard to mass transit, I don't think there are any single solutions. Every city is different, and some have enormous and unique challenges. NYC, for instance, has the challenge of multiple boroughs separated by rivers with limited numbers of crossing points. While an affordable residential neighborhood in Queens may only be a few miles as the crow flies from a job in Manhattan, the transit time might easily be an hour. This isn't because the transit system is poorly designed, slow, or underfunded, but simply because of the geographic and population challenges of the city.

I was tempted to throw in school vouchers, but the way they are generally proposed by "your side" would make things worst for the population we are speaking about. I think they can ultimately be part of the solution but they would be at the end of list of changes (such as school transportation systems, or the creation of non college prep schools for the highly technical, high paying "blue collar" jobs of today's world) not at the beginning to help the poorest of the poor trapped in the crummiest of schools.

 

[The Commish]

Imagine if i pulled up in my car in front of your house ...waited until you came out and followed you in your car .You park your car and i park next to you.You get out and go into the mall .I follow closely behind you ...i am everywhere you turn...just following you. You go into the mens room and i follow.I just stand there looking at you .I follow you into each store .You finally walk up to me and ask what my problem is and i simply say im not doing anything illegal. I continue to follow you out to your car and follow you back to your house .Again i just sit and wait until i can follow you again.

Now i ask you,would it matter to you that im not breaking any laws? Where does following turn into stalking? Whats the line that one has to cross over? Following someone behind a dark building at night or following someone all over town ? Im just curious because it seems to be very insignificant to a lot of zimmerman fans?

Depends on the state I guess. In Florida this doesn't seem to violate the law

 

[drummer]

Imagine if i pulled up in my car in front of your house ...waited until you came out and followed you in your car .You park your car and i park next to you.You get out and go into the mall .I follow closely behind you ...i am everywhere you turn...just following you. You go into the mens room and i follow.I just stand there looking at you .I follow you into each store .You finally walk up to me and ask what my problem is and i simply say im not doing anything illegal. I continue to follow you out to your car and follow you back to your house .Again i just sit and wait until i can follow you again.

Now i ask you,would it matter to you that im not breaking any laws? Where does following turn into stalking? Whats the line that one has to cross over? Following someone behind a dark building at night or following someone all over town ? Im just curious because it seems to be very insignificant to a lot of zimmerman fans?

If you're gonna go through all that trouble I'll just wing you first to save your gas.

 

[Thunderlips]

I'm fine with the courts decision as it is kind of hard to the get the other side of the story from a dead man....but if there were a verbal altercation between these two guys and Zimmerman initiated a physical confrontation (say Martin told Zim to go F himself, started to walk away and Zimmerman grabbed his shoulder), started to get his ### whipped and then in the moment shot Martin. What would that be in the legal sense under these FL laws?

In Florida, it wouldn't matter too much. If at any time he felt he was going to die or sustain great bodily harm, he's free to shoot. What will be interesting is the court case where two people get in a fight like this and they both live and both claim self defense....then what??

Thanks.

If that be the case, then it's a pretty ####ty law that a could (essentially) start a physical confrontation and then hide behind a gun.

If I were a black in FL...I'd protest that #### by organizing as many blacks as possible to get legal firearms and apply for licenses to carry. That'd worry a few more people than these stupid riots.

 

[The Commish]

I'm fine with the courts decision as it is kind of hard to the get the other side of the story from a dead man....but if there were a verbal altercation between these two guys and Zimmerman initiated a physical confrontation (say Martin told Zim to go F himself, started to walk away and Zimmerman grabbed his shoulder), started to get his ### whipped and then in the moment shot Martin. What would that be in the legal sense under these FL laws?

In Florida, it wouldn't matter too much. If at any time he felt he was going to die or sustain great bodily harm, he's free to shoot. What will be interesting is the court case where two people get in a fight like this and they both live and both claim self defense....then what??

Thanks.

If that be the case, then it's a pretty ####ty law that a could (essentially) start a physical confrontation and then hide behind a gun.

If I were a black in FL...I'd protest that #### by organizing as many blacks as possible to get legal firearms and apply for licenses to carry. That'd worry a few more people than these stupid riots.

The starting point for the law is similar to other states, however Florida has set a precedence that "aggressor" can change within the timeframe of the event. I don't know what other states have that provision. The few that I have looked up (AZ, MA, and SC) don't best I can tell.

 

[GroveDiesel]

Sheesh. Seems like Nancy Grace may actually be the biggest racist of them all:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2366248/Watch-Nancy-Grace-complains-George-Zimmerman-Hispanic-man-bond-driving-Taco-Bell-night-having-churro-trial.html

'Give Zimmerman back his life? Hes [been] out on bond, driving through Taco Bell every night, having a churro,' she said.