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For the love of God, do not elect Hilary Clinton next election. (1 Viewer)

State has not turned over 2 Benghazi-related emails to CongressAt issue: A pair of emails from Sept. 29, 2012.


The State Department has not turned over to congressional Benghazi investigators an email exchange between Hillary Clinton and top aides who were prepping the former secretary of state to discuss the 2012 terrorist attack with a U.S. senator.

The House Select Committee on Benghazi has confirmed to POLITICO that it does not have copies of two Sept. 29, 2012, emails between Clinton and her top policy staffer Jake Sullivan, chief of staff Cheryl Mills and spokesman Philippe Reines.

The emails — which surfaced last week in a State Department response to a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit brought by a conservative group — also mention the talking points for Susan Rice, then U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, according to a description of the messages in court documents.

In the days after the Sept. 11, 2012, attack that left four Americans dead, Rice had blamed the tragedy on an anti-Muslim video. Hill Republicans would subsequently accuse the Obama administration of misleading the public about how security at the U.S. compound broke down.

State would neither confirm nor deny that the emails had been withheld, other than to refer to the court filing, which argues certain agency deliberations are exempt from disclosure.

“As non-final drafts, the bodies of these messages consist in their entirety of information that is pre-decisional and deliverable in nature,” wrote State Department top record official John Hackett in response to the lawsuit brought by the conservative group, Judicial Watch.

“Release of this material could reasonably be expected to chill the frank deliberations that occur when senior staff are preparing points or other draft remarks for use by senior Department officials in addressing a matter of public controversy,” he continued.

...“There is no legal privilege which protects the administration from embarrassing emails, emails that substantially impeach previous administration positions, or evidence of wholly contradictory statements by administration officials,” said Benghazi committee spokesman Jamal Ware in a statement for this story. “Chairman Gowdy believes these documents should have been produced to the Committee since the Committee is expressly charged with investigating all aspects of this administration’s response to the attacks in Benghazi including any efforts, however meager, to comply with congressional oversight.”

At the crux of the disagreement is the question of whether the department is obligated to turn over all discussions of agency staff about the topic in question. FOIA allows for a number of exemptions, including those cited by Hackett in the court filing — though Judicial Watch plans to ask a judge to overrule it.

But exemptions from congressional subpoenas are a different matter.

The Obama administration has previously invoked executive privilege to withhold documents in Congress’ investigation of the Fast and Furious gun-walking operation.


...State, however, is not claiming executive privilege in this case, but simply arguing that certain Benghazi-related documents constitute “important Executive Branch institutional interests” or should be withheld due to “executive branch confidentiality.” It has made such an argument during several Benghazi document productions, sources say.
Committee Chairman Trey Gowdy (R-S.C.) has twice requested information about withheld documents, including the number of pages, descriptions of their contents and the reasoning behind the department’s decision not to turn them over.

Republicans say they’ve yet to hear back.


...“There is no privilege or any other legal justification for withholding these documents from Congress except that the existence of these documents may undercut and impeach previous statements by this administration,” Ware said. “While they may wish they did not have to turn over documents that could show their duplicity, the law, nonetheless, requires that they do so.”
Panel Democrats declined comment for this story.

The pair of emails in question came to light last Tuesday in a court filing just before midnight by State Department’s Hackett. Judicial Watch is suing for release of all communications about Rice’s infamous talking points.

Hackett described the exchange that was not released to the conservative group.

Sullivan sent the first email, under the subject line “Key Points,” to Clinton’s private email account and to Mills, according to court documents. (The court filing confirms that Clinton also handed over her copy of this exchange to the State Department — though the department did not release it.)


Three hours later, Mills forwarded what appears to be a revision of the first email to Sullivan and Reines under subject line: “Fwd: REVISED key points.”

The exact contents of the messages are unknown, though Hackett disclosed to the court that it related to Clinton’s talking points ahead of a discussion with a lawmaker.

“The bodies of the messages consist of drafts, composed by advisors to former Secretary Clinton, of a proposed future communication from the former Secretary to a member of the U.S. Senate concerning various issues related to the attacks of September 11, 2012, in Benghazi,” Hackett wrote, later adding that a portion of each draft included “a summery of the talking points that had been sent to Ambassador Rice” a few weeks earlier.

Hackett told the judge the email exchange in question was exempted from the group’s FOIA request because it dealt with the deliberations of staff regarding a controversy, what he called the deliberative process privilege.


...He then argued that releasing the emails would also invade the top staffers’ privacy: “Any individual, including a U.S. Government employee, has a privacy interest in his or her personal email address because the release of this information could result in harassment or unwanted attention,” Hackett writes. “The domain names of the personal email addresses in the email chain are therefore exempt.”
Under government record-keeping rules, staff are supposed to use their State.gov emails for official matters, not their personal addresses.
Hackett “concluded that disclosure … would result in a clear unwarranted invasion of personal privacy and disclosure of the information would not serve the ‘core purpose’ of the FOIA i.e., it would not disclose information about ‘what the government is up to.’”

“Accordingly, I have determined that the privacy interests clearly outweigh any public interest in disclosure of the withheld information.”
http://www.politico.com/story/2015/07/state-department-benghazi-committee-emails-congress-hillary-clinton-aides-120047.html#ixzz3ftgx0wjf

 
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Well actually, Bill campaigned on health care reform, not Hillary. And Hillary single-handedly ####ed it up by all accounts. Not the best example for you.
I love it - I showed that she actually does care about doing what she's claims and you guys all retort "Yeah, but she's bad at it".

:lmao:
But that's the gig isn't it? Or is it just good enough to be for something with no ability to get that something accomplished?
Name me one candidate in this election to will be able to get anything accomplished...I'll wait...

 
Well actually, Bill campaigned on health care reform, not Hillary. And Hillary single-handedly ####ed it up by all accounts. Not the best example for you.
I love it - I showed that she actually does care about doing what she's claims and you guys all retort "Yeah, but she's bad at it".

:lmao:
But that's the gig isn't it? Or is it just good enough to be for something with no ability to get that something accomplished?
Name me one candidate in this election to will be able to get anything accomplished...I'll wait...
You're preaching to the choir :shrug:

or barking up the wrong tree :oldunsure:

 
I don't think I have the requisite energy, time or desire to tackle every one of the absurd assertions in Hillary's campaign site's self-serving response to Hillary's own overreach in her interview with Keilar on CNN.

It's funny that they do this now and this thing has been percolating since March. It's like Hillary's campaign is responding to Hillary.

Anyway, let's just look at the beginning assertion. If anyone wants to tackle any other point or if Tim feels that any one given point is really convincing, I'm glad to look at it.

When Clinton got to the Department, she opted to use her personal email account as a matter of convenience. It enabled her to reach people quickly and keep in regular touch with her family and friends more easily given her travel schedule. That is the only reason she used her own account.
That's how it starts.

First thing worth pointing out is that Hillary previously stated she used it for convenience because she wanted to be on one device. Now, that has been thoroughly laughed at for a couple reasons. One, it's absurd, you can handle multiple accounts from one device anyway. For another, her own twitter feed, her prior interviews and her own emails make references to her owning an ipad as well as both a blackberry and an iphone. But in any event her own campaign has abandoned that canard.

The above is really silly, Hillary could obviously email friends and family from her work email, and she could email friends and family from her own devices (any of them). People deal with public records in government and official record keeping in their work all the time, they don't have to go off the official grid in every communication they do to talk to people via emoticons or whatever else they use to talk personally.

It's also worth pointing out that Hillary's own emails indicate that she had yet another (her fourth or fifth, depending) email when she started at SOS. So she switched from a personal email she had to yet another personal email that she had. Then she branched out to additional emails. The placement of her public emails on her own, private server makes no difference from that standpoint. It's just as convenient on her server, on yahoo's server or on the SOS's server. It's just pure squalid maneur from a substantive standpoint.

Obviously it also was not her choice because the law and ethics did not permit her the option of convenience, public records, including retaining them and responding to FOIA request and subpoenas for them, is not a matter of convenience, ever.

I don't think I can get past square 1 after that inanity.

If anyone has any other particular issues that they think are really compelling in that "piece" please let me know.

 
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Ok, just one more, for any so interested this is one actual State department reg which controlled this situation. It date from 2005:

Was it allowed?

Yes. The laws, regulations, and State Department policy in place during her tenure permitted her to use a non-government email for work.
This could go on, but this should be enough:

It is the Department’s general policy that normal day-to-day operations be conducted on an authorized AIS, which has the proper level of security control to provide nonrepudiation, authentication and encryption, to ensure confidentiality, integrity, and availability of the resident information. The Department’s authorized telework solution(s) are designed in a manner that meet these requirements and are not considered end points outside of the Department’s management control. b. The Department is expected to provide, and employees are expected to use, approved secure methods to transmit SBU information when available and practical. c. Employees should be aware that transmissions from the Department’s Open Net to and from non-U.S. Government Internet addresses, and other .gov or .mil addresses, unless specifically directed through an approved secure means, traverse the Internet unencrypted. Therefore, employees must be cognizant of the sensitivity of the information and mandated security controls, and evaluate the possible security risks and then decide whether a more secure means of transmission is warranted (i.e., secure fax, mail or network, etc.)
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/88404.pdf

That is dated 11/04/05. That's over and beyond the public records laws, FOIA laws, and all the rest at issue. Hillary was not only not supposed to be taking her public records and putting them in her own retention system, she wasn't even supposed to be emailing people on servers like hers on official business much less emailing from and retaining public records on such a server.

 
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Ok, just one more, for any so interested this is one actual State department reg which controlled this situation. It date from 2005:

Was it allowed?

Yes. The laws, regulations, and State Department policy in place during her tenure permitted her to use a non-government email for work.
This could go on, but this should be enough:

It is the Department’s general policy that normal day-to-day operations be conducted on an authorized AIS, which has the proper level of security control to provide nonrepudiation, authentication and encryption, to ensure confidentiality, integrity, and availability of the resident information. The Department’s authorized telework solution(s) are designed in a manner that meet these requirements and are not considered end points outside of the Department’s management control. b. The Department is expected to provide, and employees are expected to use, approved secure methods to transmit SBU information when available and practical. c. Employees should be aware that transmissions from the Department’s Open Net to and from non-U.S. Government Internet addresses, and other .gov or .mil addresses, unless specifically directed through an approved secure means, traverse the Internet unencrypted. Therefore, employees must be cognizant of the sensitivity of the information and mandated security controls, and evaluate the possible security risks and then decide whether a more secure means of transmission is warranted (i.e., secure fax, mail or network, etc.)
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/88404.pdf

That is dated 11/04/05. That's over and beyond the public records laws, FOIA laws, and all the rest at issue. Hillary was not only not supposed to be taking her public records and putting them in her own retention system, she wasn't even supposed to be emailing people on servers like hers on official business much less emailing from and retaining public records on such a server.
Evidence that Hillary sent/received sensitive but unclassified e-mails without appropriate security controls from this specific system.

 
Ok, just one more, for any so interested this is one actual State department reg which controlled this situation. It date from 2005:

Was it allowed?

Yes. The laws, regulations, and State Department policy in place during her tenure permitted her to use a non-government email for work.
This could go on, but this should be enough:

It is the Department’s general policy that normal day-to-day operations be conducted on an authorized AIS, which has the proper level of security control to provide nonrepudiation, authentication and encryption, to ensure confidentiality, integrity, and availability of the resident information. The Department’s authorized telework solution(s) are designed in a manner that meet these requirements and are not considered end points outside of the Department’s management control. b. The Department is expected to provide, and employees are expected to use, approved secure methods to transmit SBU information when available and practical. c. Employees should be aware that transmissions from the Department’s Open Net to and from non-U.S. Government Internet addresses, and other .gov or .mil addresses, unless specifically directed through an approved secure means, traverse the Internet unencrypted. Therefore, employees must be cognizant of the sensitivity of the information and mandated security controls, and evaluate the possible security risks and then decide whether a more secure means of transmission is warranted (i.e., secure fax, mail or network, etc.)
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/88404.pdf

That is dated 11/04/05. That's over and beyond the public records laws, FOIA laws, and all the rest at issue. Hillary was not only not supposed to be taking her public records and putting them in her own retention system, she wasn't even supposed to be emailing people on servers like hers on official business much less emailing from and retaining public records on such a server.
Evidence that Hillary sent/received sensitive but unclassified e-mails without appropriate security controls from this specific system.
The sole point here is that Hillary claimed there was no law or regulation governing her retention of public records, obviously from the ground up there was (and there was more than one).

I think your point (if true, which I don't want to get into here) would be better for her, because she could at least concede the facts instead of constantly dissembling and having her Brock/Blumenthal/MM minions do so for her as well.

 
Ok, just one more, for any so interested this is one actual State department reg which controlled this situation. It date from 2005:

Was it allowed?

Yes. The laws, regulations, and State Department policy in place during her tenure permitted her to use a non-government email for work.
This could go on, but this should be enough:

It is the Department’s general policy that normal day-to-day operations be conducted on an authorized AIS, which has the proper level of security control to provide nonrepudiation, authentication and encryption, to ensure confidentiality, integrity, and availability of the resident information. The Department’s authorized telework solution(s) are designed in a manner that meet these requirements and are not considered end points outside of the Department’s management control. b. The Department is expected to provide, and employees are expected to use, approved secure methods to transmit SBU information when available and practical. c. Employees should be aware that transmissions from the Department’s Open Net to and from non-U.S. Government Internet addresses, and other .gov or .mil addresses, unless specifically directed through an approved secure means, traverse the Internet unencrypted. Therefore, employees must be cognizant of the sensitivity of the information and mandated security controls, and evaluate the possible security risks and then decide whether a more secure means of transmission is warranted (i.e., secure fax, mail or network, etc.)
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/88404.pdf

That is dated 11/04/05. That's over and beyond the public records laws, FOIA laws, and all the rest at issue. Hillary was not only not supposed to be taking her public records and putting them in her own retention system, she wasn't even supposed to be emailing people on servers like hers on official business much less emailing from and retaining public records on such a server.
Evidence that Hillary sent/received sensitive but unclassified e-mails without appropriate security controls from this specific system.
The sole point here is that Hillary claimed there was no law or regulation governing her retention of public records, obviously from the ground up there was (and there was more than one).

I think your point (if true, which I don't want to get into here) would be better for her, because she could at least concede the facts instead of constantly dissembling and having her Brock/Blumenthal/MM minions do so for her as well.
The first sentence is false. Hillary and her team made no such claim. Her claim is that by sending her e-mails to a "state.gov" recipient she complied with all laws and regulations concerning retention as the government server would handle that for her. The policy you quoted was not about retention but security. Security for a specific class of communication.

For her to have violated that policy you need for me to believe that Hillary set up her own server to obscure what she was doing from view and she did it with a server that did not have any real security and sent out messages without encryption. That her IT group never would have bothered to "contact IRM/OPS/ITI/SI/PKI to request assistance in providing a secure technical solution for those transmissions" for these specific communications. She did or didn't do all of this during the time that the snooping activities of the NSA were constantly in the media but I must assume were kept from the Senate and State department and the overly secretive and paranoid Hillary. Sorry but I'm obviously not in the shape you are in as I'm not able to stretch and twist myself into such a position.

As for the second paragraph....

 
Ok, just one more, for any so interested this is one actual State department reg which controlled this situation. It date from 2005:

Was it allowed?

Yes. The laws, regulations, and State Department policy in place during her tenure permitted her to use a non-government email for work.
This could go on, but this should be enough:

It is the Department’s general policy that normal day-to-day operations be conducted on an authorized AIS, which has the proper level of security control to provide nonrepudiation, authentication and encryption, to ensure confidentiality, integrity, and availability of the resident information. The Department’s authorized telework solution(s) are designed in a manner that meet these requirements and are not considered end points outside of the Department’s management control. b. The Department is expected to provide, and employees are expected to use, approved secure methods to transmit SBU information when available and practical. c. Employees should be aware that transmissions from the Department’s Open Net to and from non-U.S. Government Internet addresses, and other .gov or .mil addresses, unless specifically directed through an approved secure means, traverse the Internet unencrypted. Therefore, employees must be cognizant of the sensitivity of the information and mandated security controls, and evaluate the possible security risks and then decide whether a more secure means of transmission is warranted (i.e., secure fax, mail or network, etc.)
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/88404.pdf

That is dated 11/04/05. That's over and beyond the public records laws, FOIA laws, and all the rest at issue. Hillary was not only not supposed to be taking her public records and putting them in her own retention system, she wasn't even supposed to be emailing people on servers like hers on official business much less emailing from and retaining public records on such a server.
Evidence that Hillary sent/received sensitive but unclassified e-mails without appropriate security controls from this specific system.
The sole point here is that Hillary claimed there was no law or regulation governing her retention of public records, obviously from the ground up there was (and there was more than one).

I think your point (if true, which I don't want to get into here) would be better for her, because she could at least concede the facts instead of constantly dissembling and having her Brock/Blumenthal/MM minions do so for her as well.
The first sentence is false. Hillary and her team made no such claim. Her claim is that by sending her e-mails to a "state.gov" recipient she complied with all laws and regulations concerning retention as the government server would handle that for her. The policy you quoted was not about retention but security. Security for a specific class of communication.

For her to have violated that policy you need for me to believe that Hillary set up her own server to obscure what she was doing from view and she did it with a server that did not have any real security and sent out messages without encryption. That her IT group never would have bothered to "contact IRM/OPS/ITI/SI/PKI to request assistance in providing a secure technical solution for those transmissions" for these specific communications. She did or didn't do all of this during the time that the snooping activities of the NSA were constantly in the media but I must assume were kept from the Senate and State department and the overly secretive and paranoid Hillary. Sorry but I'm obviously not in the shape you are in as I'm not able to stretch and twist myself into such a position.

As for the second paragraph....
Hillary and her team made no such claim.
"There was no law. There was no regulation. There was nothing that did not give me the full authority to decide how I was going to communicate. "

- That's Hillary, and that's false. You can argue about whether it allowed this or allowed that (it didn't) but the idea there was no law, no regulation is bordering on crazy or complete boldfaced dishonesty. She could at least admit there are laws and regulations at play here.

But then her own campaign comes back and says there were laws and regulations at play. "Yes. The laws, regulations, and State Department policy in place during her tenure... ." How bad is that? Her own campaign admits she is batsht nuts.

But even so looking at her campaign's argument - which flies in the face of Hillary's own - your point is "by sending her e-mails to a "state.gov" recipient she complied with all laws and regulations concerning retention": first of all you know full well that does not cover instances when she did email with persons off the state.gov grid, which we do know happened. Further, we also know that Hillary has not provided us with her keyword list which she used for deletion of her public records. So it's also possible if she solely provided state.gov communications then by its very nature she deleted anything which she would have emailed outside State. So basically she deletes everything outside State and then she claims she did not email outside State. We know for a fact she was emailing Blumenthal for starters and even some of those emails are missing, we only have them because of the hack, Gawker and Blumenthal's production. The simplest way for Hillary to resolve this would be to produce the keyword list by which she destroyed her records, which she has so far refused to do. We also know some documents have been classified in the production process, we know some documents have been redacted because of sensitive information, and we know at least 2-3 documents have been withheld because of executive privilege. And we also know that Hillary herself fired an ambassador for using private email off the .gov grid per a State department report. Now if an ambassador was fired for it, why would a SOS be allowed to do it?

About the policy concerning security versus retention - Security and retention are different things, so is production. Hillary failed on all three levels. But again the key here was her original claim that "There was no law. There was no regulation." Obviously there were such laws on security (State regs), on retention (Public records act) and production (FOIA, subpoenas). Personally IMO the PRA and other laws and regs do not allow persons to delete documents they have control over when they are public records just on the presumption they are duplicate. I will also add that the fact that they may have been duplicates in some instances did not grant Hillary the authority to delete them because she did not know what had been retained elsewhere, she could never presume that anything she destroyed was on file elsewhere. If you want me to repost the information on her security again I will do so (ok, here's one, here's another, there's one where she was warned not to do this. there's another reporting how she had an ATT email add when she first came on board, there's a report on how she deliberately changed her security settings to allow auto-deletion, there's a report on how her settings were vulnerable to spoofing), there's another report that details that of course server registration does not necessarily reflect where a server really is and Hillary's may not even be in her home, but she won't even tell State its location. When asked about the security Hillary actually said it was safe because it was guarded by secret service, first of all, we don't know that and secondly that's really, really ignorant. All of these security issues have been detailed in this thread. But again I think one telling fact is that her server was registered to someone with no IT or State security clearance, the bond broker at Manhattan. Why a bondbroker in Manhattan should "own" and control the registration for the Secretary of State's server (which also holds emails for her State Dept aides and one ex-president), I have no idea, maybe you can tell me.

For her to have violated that policy you need for me to believe that Hillary set up her own server to obscure what she was doing from view
I don't think intent has anything to do with it. We do know that Hillary did not comply with FOIA and Congressional requests for at least 5 years. It may have only been because Blumenthal's emails were hacked that State was even alerted to the existence of her server. Alternatively maybe it was the AP that kept pounding on the table that they were getting zero records under Hillary's name which was more like it. At no point has Hillary indicated that she coordinated the existence of her server with State IT or even informed most people that she had such. The president and Axelrod have both denied this themselves. The fact that Hillary deleted her own emails in electronic form and all metadata under her control I think probably points to her mental POV more than anything. Though of course there is also the bs about "convenience" when reality is she had at least 4 emails in use off that server, had a fifth at one point, added her aides onto the server, and we know she had at least 3 devices anyway. If she wants to argue intent she had better stop dissembling about intent.

she did it with a server that did not have any real security and sent out messages without encryption
The security setup on this home server has been reported on, but yes this was the case for some time. IIRC for the first 2 months there was no security at all (see above articles). However obviously after that "no security" and "no encyrption" is not the only bar, after that it's been shown to have been insufficient.

That her IT group never would have bothered to "contact IRM/OPS/ITI/SI/PKI to request assistance
I think you know you're asking for a negative here. It should be on Hillary to show she did this. No one knows who her IT group was or if she even had an "IT group." However at a minimum the fact that the server was registered to a JP Morgan bond broker should be enough. I seriously doubt that guy had security clearance, I would really love to hear someone ask Hillary why or how he got involved.

 
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State currently has at least three courts to answer to which are pressing her - one is AP, one is Vice News, and one is Judicial Watch.

Aside from the slamming State just got in the AP court, the JW court also just put State on notice, but I thought this exchange was interesting:

MR . FEDELI : … Your Honor. ... The concerns that we have about preservation do remain outstanding for us .

THE COURT : I'm sorry ?

MR . FEDELI : The concerns we have about preservation , having not been really fully addressed yet , remain outstanding for us .

THE COURT : I understand that , and I am concerned about that as well . If documents are destroyed between now and August 17 , the government will have to answer for that , and , you know , if they don ' t want to do anything out of the ordinary to preserve between now and then , they can make that choice. I will allow them to make that choice, but they will answer for it, if something happens.

MR . FEDELI : Thank you , Your Honor .

THE COURT : They are prudent people .

MS . SHAPIRO : Sorry , just one note to the preservation point .

THE COURT : Sure .

MS . SHAPIRO : Again , I don ' t think we construed the questions that were asked as preservation related questions . There ' s no question that the government will preserve every record in its possession that relates to this and all the other requests - -

THE COURT : Now " possession " is probably a term of art in this context . What does the government consider its possession , and does it also include custody or control ?

MS . SHAPIRO : Well , custody and control are - - again , they ' re legal terms .

THE COURT : Sure .

MS . SHAPIRO : The State Department will not be destroying anything that relates to any of these cases . With respect to individuals over which the State Department has no control , because they are former government employees - -

THE COURT : But to the extent that they have official government records , what do you believe is the State Department ' s duty ?

MS . SHAPIRO : The State Department has asked for the return of those records .

THE COURT : Okay .

MS . SHAPIRO : And those individuals have that correspondence , and anything that comes back to the government , of course , will be preserved and maintained . And , you know , we can put that assurance in an e-mail to the plaintiffs , if that makes them more comfortable . I think there should be no question that the government is preserving records and satisfying its litigation obligation.

THE COURT : You know , I understand everyone's position , and it is to state the obvious that this is not an ordinary case , and everyone should be working to make sure that whatever documents exist today remain in existence . I understand the government ' s position that discovery is extraordinary in FOIA cases . But I am a little bit mystified that the government is not more forthcoming in just answering questions that will help this case proceed on a systematic basis , and on a basis that will allow everyone to get the answers that will eventually help resolve these cases , all 35 of them .
http://www.judicialwatch.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/7.9.2015.Status.15cv688-2.pdf

Right there the court points out there are 35 cases seeking Hillary's records. That's astounding. But also Hillary is under a duty to preserve on behalf of the government, that's an obligation and State has said on the record they have been telling her that.

 
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Hillary Clinton would lose to Scott Walker, Jeb Bush and Marco Rubio in three swing states, poll shows BY Adam Edelman
NEW YORK DAILY NEWS
Wednesday, July 22, 2015, 3:35 PM
Hillary Clinton may have her work cut out for her in the general election.

According to a new poll released Wednesday, the former secretary of state is trailing three Republican frontrunners in three key swing states.

In Colorado, Iowa and Virginia, Clinton would lose hypothetical matchups to former Florida Gov. Jeb Bush, Florida Sen. Marco Rubio and Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker, the latest Quinnipiac University Poll shows.

Rubio would beat Clinton in Colorado 46% to 38%, in Iowa 44% to 36% and in Virginia 43% to 41%, the poll showed.

Bush would defeat Clinton in Colorado 41% to 36%, in Iowa 42% to 36% and in Virginia 42% to 39%, according to Quinnipiac.

Meanwhile, Walker, the poll showed, would top Clinton in Colorado 47% to 38%, in Iowa 45% to 37% in Iowa and 43% to 40% in Virginia. Polls in all three states had a margin of error of +/- 2.8 percentage points.

Obama carried all three swing states in his 2008 and 2012 general election victories, and they are seen as critical for the eventual nominees in 2016 to win the overall race.

“Hillary Clinton’s numbers have dropped among voters in the key swing states of Colorado, Iowa and Virginia. She has lost ground in the horserace and on key questions about her honesty and leadership,” Peter A. Brown, assistant director of the Quinnipiac University Poll, said in a statement accompanying the poll’s release.

“Against three Republicans, former Florida Gov. Jeb Bush, U.S. Sen. Marco Rubio of Florida and Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker, Secretary Clinton trails in six matchups and is on the downside of too-close-to call in three,” Brown added of the poll, which was conducted from July 9 to 20 among 1,231 voters in Colorado, 1,236 voters in Iowa and 1,209 voters in Virginia.

The polls, however, did not ask about a potential Clinton-Trump matchup, despite the fact that the real estate mogul has come in at or near the top of several recent national Republican primary polls.

Despite those other polls, the Quinnipiac survey found that voters in Virginia, Iowa and Colorado did not appear to like the billionaire candidate — at all.

In Colorado, 58% of those polled had an unfavorable view of Trump, compared to only 31% who held a favorable view of him.

In Iowa, 57% had an unfavorable opinion of Trump, while only 32% said they held a favorable one.

And in Virginia, 61% of voters said they viewed Trump unfavorably, compared to 32% who said they viewed him favorably.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/clinton-loses-walker-bush-rubio-3-swing-states-poll-article-1.2300867

 
Even if all of those states don't go Hillary's way (and that's a pretty big "if") the math still doesn't add up.

The problem is you need Bush or Rubio to have a shot in Florida. And you need Walker or Kasich to have a shot in Ohio and Wisconsin. The VP won't matter, only the head of the ticket. Bush and Rubio lose Ohio, Walker and Kasich lose Florida. That's the ballgame.

 
Even if all of those states don't go Hillary's way (and that's a pretty big "if") the math still doesn't add up.

The problem is you need Bush or Rubio to have a shot in Florida. And you need Walker or Kasich to have a shot in Ohio and Wisconsin. The VP won't matter, only the head of the ticket. Bush and Rubio lose Ohio, Walker and Kasich lose Florida. That's the ballgame.
I agree with tim. Even Republican election experts like Sean Trende have all but conceded the election. Unless something seismic happens and people become and feel really disenchanted with Hillary and the Democratic party, it's over before it has begun.

 
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Even if all of those states don't go Hillary's way (and that's a pretty big "if") the math still doesn't add up.

The problem is you need Bush or Rubio to have a shot in Florida. And you need Walker or Kasich to have a shot in Ohio and Wisconsin. The VP won't matter, only the head of the ticket. Bush and Rubio lose Ohio, Walker and Kasich lose Florida. That's the ballgame.
I think a Rubio/Kasich Ticket could take both. But I have no idea if that is realistic or not. I do think if Rubio does well in the debates he probably has the most upside of any of the republicans. Young, Attractive, Hispanic, good speaker, does not come off as an extremist. Just my two cents.

 
Even if all of those states don't go Hillary's way (and that's a pretty big "if") the math still doesn't add up.

The problem is you need Bush or Rubio to have a shot in Florida. And you need Walker or Kasich to have a shot in Ohio and Wisconsin. The VP won't matter, only the head of the ticket. Bush and Rubio lose Ohio, Walker and Kasich lose Florida. That's the ballgame.
What data are you getting to extrapolate this to or are you just pulling it out of your rear? I see no reason why Bush/Rubio could not win Ohio/Wisconsin or Walker/Kasich not winning in Florida.

 
Even if all of those states don't go Hillary's way (and that's a pretty big "if") the math still doesn't add up.

The problem is you need Bush or Rubio to have a shot in Florida. And you need Walker or Kasich to have a shot in Ohio and Wisconsin. The VP won't matter, only the head of the ticket. Bush and Rubio lose Ohio, Walker and Kasich lose Florida. That's the ballgame.
What data are you getting to extrapolate this to or are you just pulling it out of your rear? I see no reason why Bush/Rubio could not win Ohio/Wisconsin or Walker/Kasich not winning in Florida.
I don't have any direct source- I'm simply relying on what the experts say, and what has proven true in the past. The shrinking amount of swing states have given Republicans a narrower path to victory. that's a simple fact. Democrats need Florida or Ohio, Republicans need Florida AND Ohio. That simple truth makes Dems the favorite. In both Ohio and Florida, the rural areas tend to vote Republican and the urban areas tend to vote Democrat. Since in both states the urban areas are outgrowing the rural areas, both states are slowly shifting into the Democratic category. The way to counter this, for Republicans, is either to have a home grown candidate who voters feel understands their specific issues or to have a candidate that will pull away traditional Democratic voters. Specifically- in the case of Ohio, you need a midwesterner like Kasich or Walker. In the case of Florida, you need a local or somebody who is sympathetic to Latino concerns, and that's Bush or Rubio. You can't have both, which means you're likely to lose one or the other.

That's my analysis. It could be very wrong, obviously, but we'll see.

 
timschochet said:
Chadstroma said:
timschochet said:
Even if all of those states don't go Hillary's way (and that's a pretty big "if") the math still doesn't add up.

The problem is you need Bush or Rubio to have a shot in Florida. And you need Walker or Kasich to have a shot in Ohio and Wisconsin. The VP won't matter, only the head of the ticket. Bush and Rubio lose Ohio, Walker and Kasich lose Florida. That's the ballgame.
What data are you getting to extrapolate this to or are you just pulling it out of your rear? I see no reason why Bush/Rubio could not win Ohio/Wisconsin or Walker/Kasich not winning in Florida.
I don't have any direct source- I'm simply relying on what the experts say, and what has proven true in the past. The shrinking amount of swing states have given Republicans a narrower path to victory. that's a simple fact. Democrats need Florida or Ohio, Republicans need Florida AND Ohio. That simple truth makes Dems the favorite. In both Ohio and Florida, the rural areas tend to vote Republican and the urban areas tend to vote Democrat. Since in both states the urban areas are outgrowing the rural areas, both states are slowly shifting into the Democratic category. The way to counter this, for Republicans, is either to have a home grown candidate who voters feel understands their specific issues or to have a candidate that will pull away traditional Democratic voters. Specifically- in the case of Ohio, you need a midwesterner like Kasich or Walker. In the case of Florida, you need a local or somebody who is sympathetic to Latino concerns, and that's Bush or Rubio. You can't have both, which means you're likely to lose one or the other.

That's my analysis. It could be very wrong, obviously, but we'll see.
I don't think geography is as much a concern in politics as it use to be with the exception being the home state advantage (which I tend to think has to do more with organization than anything else).

Also, Florida is not a state just about latino concerns.

Way too early to make any absolute statements in this process.

 
timschochet said:
Chadstroma said:
timschochet said:
Even if all of those states don't go Hillary's way (and that's a pretty big "if") the math still doesn't add up.

The problem is you need Bush or Rubio to have a shot in Florida. And you need Walker or Kasich to have a shot in Ohio and Wisconsin. The VP won't matter, only the head of the ticket. Bush and Rubio lose Ohio, Walker and Kasich lose Florida. That's the ballgame.
What data are you getting to extrapolate this to or are you just pulling it out of your rear? I see no reason why Bush/Rubio could not win Ohio/Wisconsin or Walker/Kasich not winning in Florida.
I don't have any direct source- I'm simply relying on what the experts say, and what has proven true in the past. The shrinking amount of swing states have given Republicans a narrower path to victory. that's a simple fact. Democrats need Florida or Ohio, Republicans need Florida AND Ohio. That simple truth makes Dems the favorite. In both Ohio and Florida, the rural areas tend to vote Republican and the urban areas tend to vote Democrat. Since in both states the urban areas are outgrowing the rural areas, both states are slowly shifting into the Democratic category. The way to counter this, for Republicans, is either to have a home grown candidate who voters feel understands their specific issues or to have a candidate that will pull away traditional Democratic voters. Specifically- in the case of Ohio, you need a midwesterner like Kasich or Walker. In the case of Florida, you need a local or somebody who is sympathetic to Latino concerns, and that's Bush or Rubio. You can't have both, which means you're likely to lose one or the other.

That's my analysis. It could be very wrong, obviously, but we'll see.
I don't think geography is as much a concern in politics as it use to be with the exception being the home state advantage (which I tend to think has to do more with organization than anything else).

Also, Florida is not a state just about latino concerns.

Way too early to make any absolute statements in this process.
Geography is a huge concern in politics, especially in national elections. It basically always comes down to Ohio and Florida. I mean, don't they usually call a state red or blue with like 6% of the vote counted? They already know who is going to win and where. Isn't there some guy that has predicted these elections almost exactly the last few times?

 
dhockster said:
timschochet said:
Even if all of those states don't go Hillary's way (and that's a pretty big "if") the math still doesn't add up.

The problem is you need Bush or Rubio to have a shot in Florida. And you need Walker or Kasich to have a shot in Ohio and Wisconsin. The VP won't matter, only the head of the ticket. Bush and Rubio lose Ohio, Walker and Kasich lose Florida. That's the ballgame.
I think a Rubio/Kasich Ticket could take both. But I have no idea if that is realistic or not. I do think if Rubio does well in the debates he probably has the most upside of any of the republicans. Young, Attractive, Hispanic, good speaker, does not come off as an extremist. Just my two cents.
Rubio/Kasich makes me think of a smoothie recipe gone bad.

Maybe a typo is needed - Vote for Rubio/Hashish!

 
Hillary Clinton needs to address the racist undertones of her 2008 campaign

Black Lives Matter, the advocacy group for black interests, has gotten the attention of the Democratic presidential candidates, who are reportedly scrambling to reach out to the movement. Even heavy favorite Hillary Clinton is getting in on it, addressing the movement in a Q&A session on Facebook, where she checked most of the right boxes.

DeRay McKesson, one of the movement's leaders, wrote on Twitter that the post was "solid." But he also noted that she had two days to work on it, and did not attend the liberal forum Netroots Nation, unlike her challengers Bernie Sanders and Martin O'Malley, who flailed in front of activists from Black Lives Matter.

McKesson is right to be suspicious. Hillary Clinton's record on race is not great. If she wishes to earn some trust on issues of racial justice, a good place to start would be with the distinctly racist undertones of her 2008 campaign against Barack Obama.

As the first primaries got underway in 2008, and Obama began to slowly pull ahead, the Clinton camp resorted to increasingly blatant race- and Muslim-baiting. It started in February, when Louis Farrakhan, the head of the Nation of Islam, endorsed Obama in a sermon. In a debate a couple days later, moderator Tim Russert repeatedly pressed Obama on the issue, who responded with repeated reassurances that he did not ask for the endorsement, did not accept it, and in fact was not a deranged anti-Semite. That wasn't enough for Clinton, who demanded that Obama "denounce" Farrakhan, which he did.

About the same time, a picture of Obama in traditional Somali garb (from an official trip) then appeared on the Drudge Report, and Matt Drudge claimed he got it from the Clinton campaign. After stonewalling on the origin question, the campaign later claimed it had nothing to do with it. A Clinton flack then went on MSNBC and argued that Obama should not be ashamed to appear in "his native clothing, in the clothing of his country."

Later, a media firestorm blew up when it was discovered that Obama's Chicago pastor Jeremiah Wright once delivered a sermon containing the words "### #### America." In response, Obama gave a deft, nuanced speech on racial issues, but Clinton kept the issue alive by insisting she would have long ago denounced the man.The late Michael Hastings, who covered Clinton's campaign, described one instance of this strategy on the ground:

Then there was Bill Clinton comparing Obama's campaign to that of Jesse Jackson's unsuccessful run in 1988. The capstone came in May, when Hillary Clinton started openly boasting about her superior support from white voters.

[Clinton supporter] Buffenbarger launched into a rant in which he compared Obama to Muhammad Ali, the best-known black American convert to Islam after Malcolm X. "But brothers and sisters," he said, "I've seen Ali in action. He could rope-a-dope with Foreman inside the ring. He could go toe-to-toe with Liston inside the ring. He could get his jaw broken by Norton and keep fighting inside the ring. But Barack Obama is no Muhammad Ali." The cunning racism of the attack actually made my heart start to beat fast and my ears start to ring. For the first time on the campaign trail, I felt completely outraged. I kept thinking, "Am I misreading this?" But there was no way, if you were in that room, to think it was anything other than what it was. [GQ]

The effort was not so blatant as George H.W. Bush's Willie Horton ad, but the attempt to play on racist attitudes through constant repetition and association was unmistakable — in addition to playing into right-wing conspiracy theories that Obama is a secret Muslim who was born in Africa. It's likely why in West Virginia — a state so racist that some guy in a Texas prison got 40 percent of the Democratic primary vote in 2012 — Clinton won a smashing victory.

This brings us back to today's presidential race. Many of the demands posed by activists focus on rhetorical gestures of support and solidarity (a notable feature of the Netroots confrontation last weekend). But this raises this issue of trust: A very charming, cynical person could simply promise support using the right words, win the election, then forget all about it.

Does the Hillary Clinton of 2008 sound like someone who's genuinely committed to the cause of racial justice? If she has changed her views, now would be a good time to explain.
http://theweek.com/articles/567774/hillary-clinton-needs-address-racist-undertones-2008-campaign

 
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Hullo:

Report: Criminal probe urged over Clinton email use at StateBy Hanna Trudo

7/24/15 12:23 AM EDT
The Department of Justice has been urged by two inspectors general to initiate a criminal investigation into the potential misuse of sensitive federal information in connection with Hillary Clinton’s use of a private email server in her former role as secretary of state, the New York Times reported late Thursday.

The department has not yet taken a stance on whether it will open an investigation, according to senior officials cited by the Times.


A memo sent to Patrick F. Kennedy, the under secretary of state for management, was sent by inspectors general for the State Department and the intelligence agencies in late June. It concluded that Clinton’s private email account had “hundreds of potentially classified emails.”

The information had not yet been verified as having a classified status at the date Clinton received them, the Times reports. Clinton, for her part, has denied sending classified information from the private email account.

“I did not email any classified material to anyone on my email,” she said in March. “There is no classified material. So I’m certainly well aware of the classification requirements and did not send classified material.”


State Department spokesman Alex Gerlach said in a statement: “We are working with both the State IG and the Intelligence Community’s Inspector General to ensure that our review of former Secretary Clinton’s emails is completed in a manner that protects sensitive and potentially classified information.”

The potential DOJ investigation expands on questions about email practices that have consumed the early stages of the Democratic presidential front-runner’s campaign.

The State Department is looking over more than 55,000 pages of correspondence provided by Clinton after her private email practices were made public. So far, 3,000 pages have been released, including some emails with redactions. Some emails that have since been marked as “classified” were not labeled as such during Clinton’s tenure.

Last week, State Department lawyers came under questioning by a federal judge regarding multiple pending Freedom of Information Act request from the Associated Press.

POLITICO obtained a transcript of remarks by United States District Court Judge Richard J. Leon, who initiated the questioning.

“I want to find out what’s been going on over there — I should say, what’s not been going on over there,” he said, adding that the State Department “has been, to say the least, recalcitrant in responding.”
http://www.politico.com/story/2015/07/report-hillary-clinton-criminal-probe-urged-by-inspectors-general-over-email-use-at-state-120571.html#ixzz3goQVNFsg



 
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Criminal Inquiry Is Sought in Clinton Email Account

Hillary Rodham Clinton at an event in West Columbia, S.C., on Thursday. Her email use while secretary of state has been an issue in the early part of her presidential run. Credit Travis Dove for The New York Times

WASHINGTON — Two inspectors general have asked the Justice Department to open a criminal investigation into whether sensitive government information was mishandled in connection with the personal email account Hillary Rodham Clinton used as secretary of state, senior government officials said Thursday.

The request follows an assessment in a June 29 memo by the inspectors general for the State Department and the intelligence agencies that Mrs. Clinton’s private account contained “hundreds of potentially classified emails.” The memo was written to Patrick F. Kennedy, the under secretary of state for management.

It is not clear if any of the information in the emails was marked as classified by the State Department when Mrs. Clinton sent or received them.

But since her use of a private email account for official State Department business was revealed in March, she has repeatedly said that she had no classified information on the account.

The initial revelation has been an issue in the early stages of her presidential campaign.

The Justice Department has not decided if it will open an investigation, senior officials said. A spokesman for Mrs. Clinton’s campaign declined to comment.

At issue are thousands of pages of State Department emails from Mrs. Clinton’s private account. Mrs. Clinton has said she used the account because it was more convenient, but it also shielded her correspondence from congressional and Freedom of Information Act requests.

She faced sharp criticism after her use of the account became public, and subsequently said she would ask the State Department to release her emails.

The department is now reviewing some 55,000 pages of emails. A first batch of 3,000 pages was made public on June 30.

In the course of the email review, State Department officials determined that some information in the messages should be retroactively classified. In the 3,000 pages that were released, for example, portions of two dozen emails were redacted because they were upgraded to “classified status.” But none of those were marked as classified at the time Mrs. Clinton handled them.

In a second memo to Mr. Kennedy, sent on July 17, the inspectors general said that at least one email made public by the State Department contained classified information. The inspectors general did not identify the email or reveal its substance.

The memos were provided to The New York Times by a senior government official.

The inspectors general also criticized the State Department for its handling of sensitive information, particularly its reliance on retired senior Foreign Service officers to decide if information should be classified, and for not consulting with the intelligence agencies about its determinations.

In March, Mrs. Clinton insisted that she was careful in her handling of information on her private account. “I did not email any classified material to anyone on my email,” she said. “There is no classified material. So I’m certainly well aware of the classification requirements and did not send classified material.”

In May, the F.B.I. asked the State Department to classify a section of Mrs. Clinton’s emails that related to suspects who may have been arrested in connection with the 2012 attacks in Benghazi, Libya. The information was not classified at the time Mrs. Clinton received it.

The revelations about how Mrs. Clinton handled her email have been an embarrassment for the State Department, which has been repeatedly criticized over its handling of documents related to Mrs. Clinton and her advisers.

On Monday, a federal judge sharply questioned State Department lawyers at a hearing in Washington about why they had not responded to Freedom of Information Act requests from The Associated Press, some of which were four years old.

“I want to find out what’s been going on over there — I should say, what’s not been going on over there,” said Judge Richard J. Leon of United States District Court, according to a transcript obtained by Politico. The judge said that “for reasons known only to itself,” the State Department “has been, to say the least, recalcitrant in responding.”

Two days later, lawmakers on the Republican-led House committee investigating the Benghazi attacks said they planned to summon Secretary of State John Kerry’s chief of staff to Capitol Hill to answer questions about why the department has not produced documents that the panel subpoenaed. That hearing is set for next Wednesday.

“The State Department has used every excuse to avoid complying with fundamental requests for documents,” said the chairman of the House committee, Representative Trey Gowdy, Republican of South Carolina.

Mr. Gowdy said that while the committee has used an array of measures to try to get the State Department to hand over documents, the results have been the same. “Our committee is not in possession of all documents needed to do the work assigned to us,” he said.

The State Department has sought to delay the hearing, citing continuing efforts to brief members of Congress on the details of the nuclear accord with Iran. It is not clear why the State Department has struggled with the classification issues and document production. Republicans have said the department is trying to use those processes to protect Mrs. Clinton.

State Department officials say they simply do not have the resources or infrastructure to properly comply with all the requests. Since March, requests for documents have significantly increased.

Some State Department officials said they believe that many senior officials did not initially take the House committee seriously, which slowed document production and created an appearance of stonewalling.

State Department officials also said that Mr. Kerry is concerned about the toll the criticism has had on the department and has urged his deputies to comply with the requests quickly.

A version of this article appears in print on July 24, 2015, on page A1 of the New York edition with the headline: Criminal Inquiry Sought in Clinton’s Use of Email.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/24/us/politics/criminal-inquiry-is-sought-in-hillary-clinton-email-account.html

The inspectors general request comes after their assessment that Clinton’s private email account contained “hundreds of potentially classified emails.” The Times' report notes that it is not clear whether the contents of the emails were marked as classified by the State Department when then-Secratry of State Clinton sent or received them.

Clinton's use of a private email account at the State Department has been a subject of intense scrutiny by both the media and Republican adversaries for months. No news outlet has been more aggressive in its coverage of that issue than the Times.

The Times' report also includes the following error: It states that a hearing in Washington about the State Department's refusal to respond to Freedom of Information Act requests had taken place on Monday. That hearing took place last week.
http://www.politico.com/blogs/media/2015/07/new-york-times-alters-clinton-email-story-211176.html

- The interesting bit here aside from you know "criminal probe" is that Hillary's camp is claiming that she did not send or receive any classified information. First of all that seems really odd for a SOS. Secondly as we all know she deleted a lot off her server, so it raises the possibility she deleted public records. Finally as we also know Hillary altered and redacted public records, so how would we know if documents produced were not also redacting relevant information in entirety (ie not just blocking it out)?

Ye olde can'0'werms here.

 
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Before you get too excited about this "criminal probe," Saints, you should know that the Times already had to revise the story to make it clear that Clinton isn't necessarily the target of the investigation, and the AP is quoting an official as saying that "the referral doesn't suggest wrongdoing by Clinton herself."

Sorry about that.

 
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Before you get too excited about this "criminal probe," Saints, you should know that the Times already had to revise the story to make it clear that Clinton isn't necessarily the target of the investigation, and the AP is quoting an official as saying that "the referral doesn't suggest wrongdoing by Clinton herself."

Sorry about that.
Tobias I noted that above, see the Politico link. - ie I noted that Hillary's claim is she did not actually violate any laws because she did not send/receive classified info, The NYT story is the latest and the current version is up there.

 
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Before you get too excited about this "criminal probe," Saints, you should know that the Times already had to revise the story to make it clear that Clinton isn't necessarily the target of the investigation, and the AP is quoting an official as saying that "the referral doesn't suggest wrongdoing by Clinton herself."

Sorry about that.
Tobias I noted that above, see the Politico link.
You provided a link to the story about the correction but you certainly didn't note it anywhere in your post (you mentioned a different and far less important mistake and correction). In fact I'd say if you read the politico story but didn't bother to mention that correction in your post you were being purposely misleading.

 
Before you get too excited about this "criminal probe," Saints, you should know that the Times already had to revise the story to make it clear that Clinton isn't necessarily the target of the investigation, and the AP is quoting an official as saying that "the referral doesn't suggest wrongdoing by Clinton herself."

Sorry about that.
Tobias I noted that above, see the Politico link.
You provided a link to the story about the correction but you certainly didn't note it anywhere in your post (you mentioned a different and far less important mistake and correction). In fact I'd say if you read the politico story but didn't bother to mention that correction in your post you were being purposely misleading.
Ok I will post a separate piece on it.

 
So, its not that Hillary was corrupt, its that she was the head of a corrupt organization?

Not sure that is as big a distinction as you think it is....

 
To clarify the above, Hillary's campaign reached out to the NYT to seek a correction, the entirety of the above linked Politico piece is here, and it should reflect the Hillary campaign's position:

New York Times alters Clinton email storyThe New York Times made small but significant changes to an exclusive report about a potential criminal investigation into Hillary Clinton's State Department email account late Thursday night, but provided no notification of or explanation for of the changes.

The paper initially reported that two inspectors general have asked the Justice Department to open a criminal investigation "into whether Hillary Rodham Clinton mishandled sensitive government information on a private email account she used as secretary of state."

That clause, which cast Clinton as the target of the potential criminal probe, was later changed: the inspectors general now were asking for an inquiry "into whether sensitive government information was mishandled in connection with the personal email account Hillary Rodham Clinton used as secretary of state."

The Times also changed the headline of the story, from "Criminal Inquiry Sought in Hillary Clinton’s Use of Email" to "Criminal Inquiry Is Sought in Clinton Email Account," reflecting a similar recasting of Clinton's possible role. The article's URL was also changed to reflect the new headline.

As of early Friday morning, the Times article contained no update, notification, clarification or correction regarding the changes made to the article.

One of the reporters of the story, Michael Schmidt, explained early Friday that the Clinton campaign had complained about the story to the Times.

“It was a response to complaints we received from the Clinton camp that we thought were reasonable, and we made them,” Schmidt said.

Nick Merrill, a spokesman for Clinton, said in an email that Clinton always followed “appropriate practices.”

“Contrary to the initial story, which has already been significantly revised, she followed appropriate practices in dealing with classified materials. As has been reported on multiple occasions, any released emails deemed classified by the administration have been done so after the fact, and not at the time they were transmitted,” Merrill said.

The inspectors general request comes after their assessment that Clinton’s private email account contained “hundreds of potentially classified emails.” The Times' report notes that it is not clear whether the contents of the emails were marked as classified by the State Department when then-Secratry of State Clinton sent or received them.

Clinton's use of a private email account at the State Department has been a subject of intense scrutiny by both the media and Republican adversaries for months. No news outlet has been more aggressive in its coverage of that issue than the Times.

The Times' report also includes the following error: It states that a hearing in Washington about the State Department's refusal to respond to Freedom of Information Act requests had taken place on Monday. That hearing took place last week.
http://www.politico.com/blogs/media/2015/07/new-york-times-alters-clinton-email-story-211176.html

- Now, to me, this is just going to raise the issue of what was in the original emails in question.... which State and the IGs don't have because the electronic versions were destroyed. Though I am sure some of them will be maintained in original form as copies.... though likely not all of them. The originals may differ from what Hillary produced (we already know she has excluded metadata, typically most obviously in cc's and bcc's) and the lack of copies could indicate that somewhere along the line Hillary did indeed destroy or alter original public records at least in electronic form. - I guess we shall see what develops. For starters DOJ has still not responded to the two requests.

eta - Another issue that arises from the editing is that apparently the NYT authors were under the impression from their senior official source that Hillary's "use" of her private server was at issue. And the edited report still notes that there are two memos. The second memo discusses the improper release of classified info. The first one is: "A memo sent to Patrick F. Kennedy, the under secretary of state for management, was sent by inspectors general for the State Department and the intelligence agencies in late June. It concluded that Clinton’s private email account had “hundreds of potentially classified emails.”" - Now to me that certainly sounds like the IGs think Hillary's "use" of the server in that regard is very much at issue.

 
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So, its not that Hillary was corrupt, its that she was the head of a corrupt organization?

Not sure that is as big a distinction as you think it is....
If it wasn't a big distinction we wouldn't have had a George H Bush presidency or the Republican Party making it their central mission to name things after Ronald Reagan.

 
The memos were provided to The New York Times by a senior government official.
And so me that's interesting as well. That's either State (again) getting out ahead of things as CYA ("not our fault") or someone from the IG offices trying to create public pressure, though that doesn't seem like something IGs would do.

 
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Hillary Clinton Sent Classified Information Over Email While at State Department, Review Finds
Information was classified as ‘secret’ at the time it was sent, intelligence community inspector general says

WASHINGTON—An internal government review found that former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton sent at least four emails from her personal account containing classified information during her time heading the State Department.

In a letter to members of Congress on Thursday, the Inspector General of the Intelligence Community concluded that Mrs. Clinton’s email contains material from the intelligence community that should have been considered “secret” at the time it was sent, the second-highest level of classification. A copy of the letter to Congress was provided to The Wall Street Journal by a spokeswoman for the Inspector General.

The four emails in question “were classified when they were sent and are classified now,” said Andrea Williams, a spokeswoman for the inspector general. The inspector general reviewed just a small sample totaling about 40 emails in Mrs. Clinton’s inbox—meaning that many more in the trove of more than 30,000 may contain potentially confidential, secret or top-secret information.

As a result of the findings, the inspector general referred the matter to the counterintelligence division of Federal Bureau of Investigation. An official with the Department of Justice said Friday that it had received a referral to open a investigation into the potential mishandling of classified information.

A Department of Justice official initially said early Friday morning that the probe into mishandled classified information was criminal in nature, but the department reversed course hours later without explanation.

“The department has received a referral related to the potential compromise of classified information. It is not a criminal referral,” said an official.

The inspector general’s office concluded that Mrs. Clinton should have used a secure network to transmit the emails in question—rather than her personal email account run off a home server.

“None of the emails we reviewed had classification or dissemination markings, but some included IC-derived classified information and should have been handled as classified, appropriately marked, and transmitted via a secure network,” wrote Inspector General I. Charles McCullough in the letter to Congress.

The emails in question left government custody and are on both Mrs. Clinton’s personal home email sever as well as a thumb drive of David Kendall, Mrs. Clinton’s personal attorney.

A spokesman for Mrs. Clinton did not immediately respond to a request for comment about the letter to Congress. Earlier, a Clinton spokesman said the former secretary of state “followed appropriate practices in dealing with classified materials. As has been reported on multiple occasions, any released emails deemed classified by the administration have been done so after the fact, and not at the time they were transmitted.”

“I did not email any classified material to anyone on my email. There is no classified material,” Mrs. Clinton told reporters in March. “I’m certainly aware of the classified requirements and did not send classified material.”

The State Department has downplayed concerns about the classified material found in Mrs. Clinton’s 55,000 pages of email—saying that email is often classified after it has been sent.

“It’s not uncommon that something that you’re sending now on an unclassified network could in later years or later months be deemed to be classified either because the passage of time made it so or because events on the ground have borne out,” a State Department spokesman said earlier this month.

Those 55,000 pages are being reviewed for public release. In one instance, classified information has already been released to the public, the inspector general found.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/investigation-sought-into-hillary-clintons-emails-1437714369

- Further speculation would be that the IGs do not have the ability to subpoena the server but the DOJ does. And further my guess is the DOJ will either for political reasons refuse to open an investigation or the DOJ will stall on making a decision, or the DOJ will open an investigation and stall on conducting it or reaching conclusions.

To the point where the final determination of Hillary's actions will be left to the next administration, either Hillary's or a GOP administration.

There is also the possibility that a court will order the server turned over at some point.

 
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Dan Merica ‏@danmericaCNN 17m17 minutes ago

The feeling of Clinton trying to stay focused on the economy while another story about her breaks outside this room is palpable.
Dan Merica ‏@danmericaCNN 24m24 minutes ago

Clinton: "Now you may have heard I am a fan of Chipotle. And it is not just because of their burrito bowl."
{Nervous laughter there, I'm sure}

Dan Merica ‏@danmericaCNN 31m31 minutes ago

Here is full statement Clinton made on the email story:

[image of full text]

"There have been a lot of inaccuracies as Congressman Cummings made clear this morning. Maybe the heat is getting to every body. We all have a responsibility to get this right. I have released 55,000 pages of emails, I have said repeatedly that I will answer questions before the house committee."
- As for commenting on the IG reports, that is pretty much it.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Probably the best summary of what the NYT did in changing the text in dark of night comes from.... Daily Kos:

New York Times dramatically rewrites a new Hillary Clinton email story after midnightHere's the first paragraph of an article the New York Times published shortly before midnight Eastern Time on Thursday night, preserved in digital amber by the invaluable NewsDiffs:

Two inspectors general have asked the Justice Department to open a criminal investigation into whether Hillary Rodham Clinton mishandled sensitive government information on a private email account she used as secretary of state, senior government officials said Thursday.
And here's the lede as it was rewritten—in dramatic fashion—an hour later:

Two inspectors general have asked the Justice Department to open a criminal investigation into whether sensitive government information was mishandled in connection with the personal email account Hillary Rodham Clinton used as secretary of state, senior government officials said Thursday.

Here's the first paragraph of an article the New York Times published shortly before midnight Eastern Time on Thursday night, preserved in digital amber by the invaluable NewsDiffs:

Emphasis added in both instances, and boy could that emphasis not be more different. In the first version, Times reporters Michael Schmidt and Matt Apuzzo say that these nameless government officials are basing their request on possible misdeeds Clinton herself is alleged to have committed; in the latter, that's transformed into an incredibly vague construction: "mishandled in connection with." What does "in connection with" even mean? It could mean almost anything.Two inspectors general have asked the Justice Department to open a criminal investigation into whether sensitive government information was mishandled in connection with the personal email account Hillary Rodham Clinton used as secretary of state, senior government officials said Thursday.

What's more, this major alteration was made without any notice to the reader. On top of that, the Times even changed the URL (the old one now redirects to the new one). If it weren't for NewsDiffs and assiduous observers like Zeke Miller, this big edit might have gotten flushed down the memory hole. But in this day and age, fortunately, that sort of shenanigan is difficult to pull off, and "paper of record" will have plenty to answer for Friday morning.

In the meantime, here's NewsDiffs' capture of the new lede, just in case the Times decides to finagle with it again.
I guess what interests me about this is:

- the timing, yes, it was after midnight, so few readers would have noticed it if not for bloggers and Politico

- that there are different parties in play at big papers, the writers, the editors, the business side. And in fact there can be different factions among editors. - In this day and age writers can go straight to the tech guy and get something published with a night editor before the big boys wake up. Hillary's people called someone, likely not the writers, likely business side or the editors, and got the detes changed after midnight. This also explains how the NYT can be so schizophrenic, one day penning an op-ed extolling Hillary's amazing mother and saying how smart she is for not speaking to reporters (uh... nm) and then the next posting stories about financial conflicts and email hijinks.

- and the original phraseology actually reflecting what the writers were actually told by their source, as opposed to the couching language later provided by Hillary's people. And so "Criminal Inquiry Is Sought in Clinton’s Use of Email Use".

- and the new phraseology - "in connection with". - It's almost as though Hillary was saying that hey if there is a problem with what happened, it was only "in connection with" the server, not her personally. Of course the WSJ already has a source that contradicts that in addition to the original reporting by the NYT from their source.

- the writers at NYT must have gone to Politico as a way of explaining what had happened to save face, in short they were providing the original story because the decision to not reflect a correction must have been a decision by either the editors or by the business side to slip one by the readership. Not so fast in this day an age, outlets for leaks also leak.

Anyway that's a little window into reporting.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Dan Merica ‏@danmericaCNN 17m17 minutes ago

The feeling of Clinton trying to stay focused on the economy while another story about her breaks outside this room is palpable.
Dan Merica ‏@danmericaCNN 24m24 minutes ago

Clinton: "Now you may have heard I am a fan of Chipotle. And it is not just because of their burrito bowl."
{Nervous laughter there, I'm sure}

Dan Merica ‏@danmericaCNN 31m31 minutes ago

Here is full statement Clinton made on the email story:

[image of full text]

"There have been a lot of inaccuracies as Congressman Cummings made clear this morning. Maybe the heat is getting to every body. We all have a responsibility to get this right. I have released 55,000 pages of emails, I have said repeatedly that I will answer questions before the house committee."
- As for commenting on the IG reports, that is pretty much it.
I like the bolded. She is saying that anyone questioning her actions must have heat stroke, they could not possibly think she did anything wrong.

That's the problem with never being able to admit a mistake. when you do make one (and we all do), and you can't explain it away, you look more and more foolish trying to explain it away when it would have been better to have said, oops, I made a mistake, to begin with.

 
Probably the best summary of what the NYT did in changing the text in dark of night comes from.... Daily Kos:

New York Times dramatically rewrites a new Hillary Clinton email story after midnightHere's the first paragraph of an article the New York Times published shortly before midnight Eastern Time on Thursday night, preserved in digital amber by the invaluable NewsDiffs:

Two inspectors general have asked the Justice Department to open a criminal investigation into whether Hillary Rodham Clinton mishandled sensitive government information on a private email account she used as secretary of state, senior government officials said Thursday.
And here's the lede as it was rewritten—in dramatic fashion—an hour later:

Two inspectors general have asked the Justice Department to open a criminal investigation into whether sensitive government information was mishandled in connection with the personal email account Hillary Rodham Clinton used as secretary of state, senior government officials said Thursday.

Here's the first paragraph of an article the New York Times published shortly before midnight Eastern Time on Thursday night, preserved in digital amber by the invaluable NewsDiffs:

Emphasis added in both instances, and boy could that emphasis not be more different. In the first version, Times reporters Michael Schmidt and Matt Apuzzo say that these nameless government officials are basing their request on possible misdeeds Clinton herself is alleged to have committed; in the latter, that's transformed into an incredibly vague construction: "mishandled in connection with." What does "in connection with" even mean? It could mean almost anything.Two inspectors general have asked the Justice Department to open a criminal investigation into whether sensitive government information was mishandled in connection with the personal email account Hillary Rodham Clinton used as secretary of state, senior government officials said Thursday.

What's more, this major alteration was made without any notice to the reader. On top of that, the Times even changed the URL (the old one now redirects to the new one). If it weren't for NewsDiffs and assiduous observers like Zeke Miller, this big edit might have gotten flushed down the memory hole. But in this day and age, fortunately, that sort of shenanigan is difficult to pull off, and "paper of record" will have plenty to answer for Friday morning.

In the meantime, here's NewsDiffs' capture of the new lede, just in case the Times decides to finagle with it again.
I guess what interests me about this is:

- the timing, yes, it was after midnight, so few readers would have noticed it if not for bloggers and Politico

- that there are different parties in play at big papers, the writers, the editors, the business side. And in fact there can be different factions among editors. - In this day and age writers can go straight to the tech guy and get something published with a night editor before the big boys wake up. Hillary's people called someone, likely not the writers, likely business side or the editors, and got the detes changed after midnight. This also explains how the NYT can be so schizophrenic, one day penning an op-ed extolling Hillary's amazing mother and saying how smart she is for not speaking to reporters (uh... nm) and then the next posting stories about financial conflicts and email hijinks.

- and the original phraseology actually reflecting what the writers were actually told by their source, as opposed to the couching language later provided by Hillary's people. And so "Criminal Inquiry Is Sought in Clinton’s Use of Email Use".

- and the new phraseology - "in connection with". - It's almost as though Hillary was saying that hey if there is a problem with what happened, it was only "in connection with" the server, not her personally. Of course the WSJ already has a source that contradicts that in addition to the original reporting by the NYT from their source.

- the writers at NYT must have gone to Politico as a way of explaining what had happened to save face, in short they were providing the original story because the decision to not reflect a correction must have been a decision by either the editors or by the business side to slip one by the readership. Not so fast in this day an age, outlets for leaks also leak.

Anyway that's a little window into reporting.
I'm lost. Cliff's Notes, or am I being obtuse?

Sounds like the NYT scrubbed a Clinton story that was online, and now regrets scrubbing it in the name of a sort of journalistic integrity that it really doesn't have.

Feel free to correct.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Probably the best summary of what the NYT did in changing the text in dark of night comes from.... Daily Kos:

New York Times dramatically rewrites a new Hillary Clinton email story after midnightHere's the first paragraph of an article the New York Times published shortly before midnight Eastern Time on Thursday night, preserved in digital amber by the invaluable NewsDiffs:

Two inspectors general have asked the Justice Department to open a criminal investigation into whether Hillary Rodham Clinton mishandled sensitive government information on a private email account she used as secretary of state, senior government officials said Thursday.
And here's the lede as it was rewritten—in dramatic fashion—an hour later:

Two inspectors general have asked the Justice Department to open a criminal investigation into whether sensitive government information was mishandled in connection with the personal email account Hillary Rodham Clinton used as secretary of state, senior government officials said Thursday.

Here's the first paragraph of an article the New York Times published shortly before midnight Eastern Time on Thursday night, preserved in digital amber by the invaluable NewsDiffs:

Emphasis added in both instances, and boy could that emphasis not be more different. In the first version, Times reporters Michael Schmidt and Matt Apuzzo say that these nameless government officials are basing their request on possible misdeeds Clinton herself is alleged to have committed; in the latter, that's transformed into an incredibly vague construction: "mishandled in connection with." What does "in connection with" even mean? It could mean almost anything.Two inspectors general have asked the Justice Department to open a criminal investigation into whether sensitive government information was mishandled in connection with the personal email account Hillary Rodham Clinton used as secretary of state, senior government officials said Thursday.

What's more, this major alteration was made without any notice to the reader. On top of that, the Times even changed the URL (the old one now redirects to the new one). If it weren't for NewsDiffs and assiduous observers like Zeke Miller, this big edit might have gotten flushed down the memory hole. But in this day and age, fortunately, that sort of shenanigan is difficult to pull off, and "paper of record" will have plenty to answer for Friday morning.

In the meantime, here's NewsDiffs' capture of the new lede, just in case the Times decides to finagle with it again.
I guess what interests me about this is:

- the timing, yes, it was after midnight, so few readers would have noticed it if not for bloggers and Politico

- that there are different parties in play at big papers, the writers, the editors, the business side. And in fact there can be different factions among editors. - In this day and age writers can go straight to the tech guy and get something published with a night editor before the big boys wake up. Hillary's people called someone, likely not the writers, likely business side or the editors, and got the detes changed after midnight. This also explains how the NYT can be so schizophrenic, one day penning an op-ed extolling Hillary's amazing mother and saying how smart she is for not speaking to reporters (uh... nm) and then the next posting stories about financial conflicts and email hijinks.

- and the original phraseology actually reflecting what the writers were actually told by their source, as opposed to the couching language later provided by Hillary's people. And so "Criminal Inquiry Is Sought in Clinton’s Use of Email Use".

- and the new phraseology - "in connection with". - It's almost as though Hillary was saying that hey if there is a problem with what happened, it was only "in connection with" the server, not her personally. Of course the WSJ already has a source that contradicts that in addition to the original reporting by the NYT from their source.

- the writers at NYT must have gone to Politico as a way of explaining what had happened to save face, in short they were providing the original story because the decision to not reflect a correction must have been a decision by either the editors or by the business side to slip one by the readership. Not so fast in this day an age, outlets for leaks also leak.

Anyway that's a little window into reporting.
I'm lost. Cliff's Notes, or am I being obtuse?

Sounds like the NYT scrubbed a Clinton story that was online, and now regrets scrubbing it in the name of a sort of journalistic integrity that it really doesn't have.

Feel free to correct.
It's not you it's me, I knew that would be cloudy, I'm just into journalistic politics.

Shorthand is you're right. The NYT scrubbed and got caught at it.

Btw after getting caught at not posting a correction, they have now posted a correction.

 
Probably the best summary of what the NYT did in changing the text in dark of night comes from.... Daily Kos:

New York Times dramatically rewrites a new Hillary Clinton email story after midnightHere's the first paragraph of an article the New York Times published shortly before midnight Eastern Time on Thursday night, preserved in digital amber by the invaluable NewsDiffs:

Two inspectors general have asked the Justice Department to open a criminal investigation into whether Hillary Rodham Clinton mishandled sensitive government information on a private email account she used as secretary of state, senior government officials said Thursday.
And here's the lede as it was rewritten—in dramatic fashion—an hour later:

Two inspectors general have asked the Justice Department to open a criminal investigation into whether sensitive government information was mishandled in connection with the personal email account Hillary Rodham Clinton used as secretary of state, senior government officials said Thursday.

Here's the first paragraph of an article the New York Times published shortly before midnight Eastern Time on Thursday night, preserved in digital amber by the invaluable NewsDiffs:

Emphasis added in both instances, and boy could that emphasis not be more different. In the first version, Times reporters Michael Schmidt and Matt Apuzzo say that these nameless government officials are basing their request on possible misdeeds Clinton herself is alleged to have committed; in the latter, that's transformed into an incredibly vague construction: "mishandled in connection with." What does "in connection with" even mean? It could mean almost anything.Two inspectors general have asked the Justice Department to open a criminal investigation into whether sensitive government information was mishandled in connection with the personal email account Hillary Rodham Clinton used as secretary of state, senior government officials said Thursday.

What's more, this major alteration was made without any notice to the reader. On top of that, the Times even changed the URL (the old one now redirects to the new one). If it weren't for NewsDiffs and assiduous observers like Zeke Miller, this big edit might have gotten flushed down the memory hole. But in this day and age, fortunately, that sort of shenanigan is difficult to pull off, and "paper of record" will have plenty to answer for Friday morning.

In the meantime, here's NewsDiffs' capture of the new lede, just in case the Times decides to finagle with it again.
I guess what interests me about this is:

- the timing, yes, it was after midnight, so few readers would have noticed it if not for bloggers and Politico

- that there are different parties in play at big papers, the writers, the editors, the business side. And in fact there can be different factions among editors. - In this day and age writers can go straight to the tech guy and get something published with a night editor before the big boys wake up. Hillary's people called someone, likely not the writers, likely business side or the editors, and got the detes changed after midnight. This also explains how the NYT can be so schizophrenic, one day penning an op-ed extolling Hillary's amazing mother and saying how smart she is for not speaking to reporters (uh... nm) and then the next posting stories about financial conflicts and email hijinks.

- and the original phraseology actually reflecting what the writers were actually told by their source, as opposed to the couching language later provided by Hillary's people. And so "Criminal Inquiry Is Sought in Clinton’s Use of Email Use".

- and the new phraseology - "in connection with". - It's almost as though Hillary was saying that hey if there is a problem with what happened, it was only "in connection with" the server, not her personally. Of course the WSJ already has a source that contradicts that in addition to the original reporting by the NYT from their source.

- the writers at NYT must have gone to Politico as a way of explaining what had happened to save face, in short they were providing the original story because the decision to not reflect a correction must have been a decision by either the editors or by the business side to slip one by the readership. Not so fast in this day an age, outlets for leaks also leak.

Anyway that's a little window into reporting.
I'm lost. Cliff's Notes, or am I being obtuse?

Sounds like the NYT scrubbed a Clinton story that was online, and now regrets scrubbing it in the name of a sort of journalistic integrity that it really doesn't have.

Feel free to correct.
It's not you it's me, I knew that would be cloudy, I'm just into journalistic politics.

Shorthand is you're right. The NYT scrubbed and got caught at it.

Btw after getting caught at not posting a correction, they have now posted a correction.
Ah, thanks for the clarification. I am a bit into the journalistic politics also, which is why what you're posting made a bit of sense to me even if I'm out of the Infowars and the Clinton stuff for the past few weeks.

The issue of online scrubbing is a real one. It gives editors real-time control over their writers, and I'm not sure that's a good thing for the dissemination of information, writ large.

 
I wish we all could share one common assumption - that every step along the way Hillary Clinton new exactly what she was doing.

 

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