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Game of Thrones, tv only, books don't exist, no backstory...NERDS already ruining a series that hasn't started (1 Viewer)

Let's talk about jamie.

He was in the king's guard and he died in king's landing protecting the queen.

His arc begins after he betrayed his vows by killing the mad king - to save the city. 

His arc ends with him trying to get to the bells and save the city and protect cersei from certain death.  He dies holding her. 

Along the way, he did a lot of dishonorable things for his family. He killed neds guards when his wife had taken tyrion. He killed his cousin to get back to cersei. He broke his vows to the kingsguard to save tyrion's life, then helped Tyrion escape. All for his family. 

Brienne gave us a chance to see his honor. He was going to fight her to get back to cersei, but he grew up respect her when she fought well.  He saved her from getting raped, and saved her from getting killed by a bear, and knighted her, and it was almost enough to complete his change.  

But he had to get back to cersei. That's what brienne cried about - not a boy leaving her, but seeing him throw everything away.  She had seen him at every point in his arc and when he came to winterfell against cersei's orders, then knighted her and even bedded her, she saw him becoming the good version of who he could be. And then in an instant it was gone.  

For him to die in king's landing, with cersei, ostensibly the end of his family line, throwing everything else away, and literally dying to kill the guy she had a fling with, that was the perfect end for his arc. He was a better man than he seemed but he was deeply flawed by his love for cersei. 

The things we do for love 

 
need2know said:
best episode in years
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Yeah it was great and the Khaleesi turn is something we are probably expected as a possibility due to all the foreshadowing at how crazy her family was. I just wish this season had been longer so they could have fleshed it all out more- it all seems so rushed but this episode was sooooo much better than the Night King battle. 

 
Sebowski said:
Everybody last week: "This is so stupid. She doesn't use her dragon enough" 

Everybody this week: "This is so stupid. She used her dragon too much" 
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Everybody?  Most here are fine with how it went down last night.  Just a few, vocal people aren't. 

 
Ilov80s said:
Yeah it was great and the Khaleesi turn is something we are probably expected as a possibility due to all the foreshadowing at how crazy her family was. I just wish this season had been longer so they could have fleshed it all out more- it all seems so rushed but this episode was sooooo much better than the Night King battle. 
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I think alot of the actors and people involved  are ready to move on

 
For all the Ls Tyrion has been piling up the last couple years, it’s worth noting his plan to get the city to peacefully surrender (for the most part) worked well until Dany got a little too enthusiastic. 

 
need2know said:
I think alot of the actors and people involved  are ready to move on
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Oh for sure, I bet almost everyone is. That show has to be a grind because it's all over the world. I am sure in retrospect there is some editing of other stories that could have been done to make time for the more important ones. They did a great job managing a rather large and unwieldy story.

 
Mrs. Rannous said:
Perhaps Jaime and Cersei are trapped and badly injured, and he kills her so she doesn't suffer any more.
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For a split second I thought he was gonna pull a murder suicide move. 

 
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bostonfred said:
Who did things that didn't make sense?

...

Arya went to kill the queen then clegane talked her out of it.  She took cover and saw good people die and now she's pissed. 

...
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bostonfred killing it in this thread, but this is maybe the only one I disagree with.  She had dedicated her life to revenge until that point, and been fearless about the possibility of death too- just a couple weeks ago she said "death has many faces, I look forward to seeing this one" and then fought an army of zombies. And just last week- a couple days prior, in the show's universe- she left behind her entire family and their home in pursuit of revenge. I can buy that she'd get talked out of it, but definitely not that easily.  We needed to spend more time with her to see that transition. At least give me one remorseful conversation with the Hound on the road to Kings Landing or something to establish that foundation.

Also what was the deal with the white horse at the end?  I figured it was Bran via warg coming to get her but I haven't seen any mention of that possibility. Was there something else about that horse we were supposed to know? Or was it just a cool visual they wanted to use?

 
Pipes said:
Everybody?  Most here are fine with how it went down last night.  Just a few, vocal people aren't. 
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I loved how it went down-I was just disappointed in how we got there. Still, as a whole work, the show is one of the most incredible things ever put on the screen. 

 
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TobiasFunke said:
bostonfred killing it in this thread, but this is maybe the only one I disagree with.  She had dedicated her life to revenge until that point, and been fearless about the possibility of death too- just a couple weeks ago she said "death has many faces, I look forward to seeing this one" and then fought an army of zombies. And just last week- a couple days prior, in the show's universe- she left behind her entire family and their home in pursuit of revenge. I can buy that she'd get talked out of it, but definitely not that easily.  We needed to spend more time with her to see that transition. At least give me one remorseful conversation with the Hound on the road to Kings Landing or something to establish that foundation.

Also what was the deal with the white horse at the end?  I figured it was Bran via warg coming to get her but I haven't seen any mention of that possibility. Was there something else about that horse we were supposed to know? Or was it just a cool visual they wanted to use?
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And lo! a pale horse; and the name was Death to him that sat on him, and hell followed him

 
Lol at everything being “rushed”. I believe it’s part of every story arc, hey call it a climax. 

You cant please everyone and some people are just miserable imbeciles.

ETA - Lol, some of you actually needed (a second) breakdown of the why and who the skip was for on the beach. Brutal.

 
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thecatch said:
For all the Ls Tyrion has been piling up the last couple years, it’s worth noting his plan to get the city to peacefully surrender (for the most part) worked well until Dany got a little too enthusiastic. 
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He released Jamie and it had nothing to do with them ringing the bells.

 
The horse is very consistent with the way the show has done things since early on. You can't show all of the people getting raided by the thenns, so they picked ollie. You can't show all of the evil lannisters raping and pillaging for the mountain, so they had the guy arya stabbed with needle. You can't have all the sane wildlings who want to live, so you have that woman at hardhome who agreed to go with jon - and then got killed by a bunch of zombie kids. 

In this episode they had the horse and the mother and daughter who were trying to survive the dragon attack.

The mother and daughter helped arya when she'd fallen, and arya tried to help them by getting them to keep moving.  They were everything arya isn't - lowborn people, family women, the mother mothering her daughter and decides to help a poor little girl who happened to be arya. Arya helping them and being at the mercy of death was not her normal place.  

Similarly, at the beginning of the episode, the horse was like hey, i'm a horse.  But by the end he's like dude i'm a horse that's seen some pretty ####ed up ####.  Did he say that out loud? Neigh. But you could see it in his face. 

 
bostonfred said:
The horse is very consistent with the way the show has done things since early on. You can't show all of the people getting raided by the thenns, so they picked ollie. You can't show all of the evil lannisters raping and pillaging for the mountain, so they had the guy arya stabbed with needle. You can't have all the sane wildlings who want to live, so you have that woman at hardhome who agreed to go with jon - and then got killed by a bunch of zombie kids. 

In this episode they had the horse and the mother and daughter who were trying to survive the dragon attack.

The mother and daughter helped arya when she'd fallen, and arya tried to help them by getting them to keep moving.  They were everything arya isn't - lowborn people, family women, the mother mothering her daughter and decides to help a poor little girl who happened to be arya. Arya helping them and being at the mercy of death was not her normal place.  

Similarly, at the beginning of the episode, the horse was like hey, i'm a horse.  But by the end he's like dude i'm a horse that's seen some pretty ####ed up ####.  Did he say that out loud? Neigh. But you could see it in his face. 
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D&D have stated "lol themes are for 8th graders."

I'm glad you've got so much out of it. I'm sad I peeked behind the curtain.

 
hagmania said:
D&D have stated "lol themes are for 8th graders."

I'm glad you've got so much out of it. I'm sad I peeked behind the curtain.
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They also have clearly discussed character arcs (major characters like theon, minor ones like ollie, or even single episode characters like the girl in winterfell). 

They clearly think about how people "should" die. And they leave lots of clues and foreshadowing.  When the hound asked arya if she would leave him to die again and she said probably... then he told her to leave because he was going to die, and she did... that was awesome. 

It's not like they don't put thought into good writing.  They just aren't looking for the classic hero's story good vs evil three act plot.  And when they've done that in an episode, they got rightly panned for it. 

 
Sinn Fein said:
I look at it differently - its not a song about Jon - its a Song about how two forces combined to force a societal re-boot.

Ice - Night King - decimated the North

Fire - Daenerys - decimated King's Landing.  (She has about a 0.01% chance of living now)

The survivors pick up the pieces of a new society.  Samwell writes the Song of Ice and Fire so that future generations will recall what happened and why.
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I think there's also something about the ancient prehistoric world, the world of magic, vs the world of men. The Night King and Dany both belong to that ancient world.

@Man of Constant Sorrow Fyi I think this is where GRRM is at.​
 
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TobiasFunke said:
bostonfred killing it in this thread, but this is maybe the only one I disagree with.  She had dedicated her life to revenge until that point, and been fearless about the possibility of death too- just a couple weeks ago she said "death has many faces, I look forward to seeing this one" and then fought an army of zombies. And just last week- a couple days prior, in the show's universe- she left behind her entire family and their home in pursuit of revenge. I can buy that she'd get talked out of it, but definitely not that easily.  We needed to spend more time with her to see that transition. At least give me one remorseful conversation with the Hound on the road to Kings Landing or something to establish that foundation.

Also what was the deal with the white horse at the end?  I figured it was Bran via warg coming to get her but I haven't seen any mention of that possibility. Was there something else about that horse we were supposed to know? Or was it just a cool visual they wanted to use?
Click to expand...
https://youtu.be/AzUrHvSOmEI

 
Amazing episode.

Dany roasting peasants and the entire city made it such an intense episode.  Wouldn't of wanted it to play out any other way.    

 
Some thoughts on the episode:

  • The show has been up front and honest about everything that has occurred and as much as we, the viewers, come up with elaborate schemes & possibilities, the writers have done pretty much exactly what they've hinted at. I tried desperately to will it otherwise but this episode drove a spike right between my eyes with it. Don't read more into it than there is. Dany went nuts...yup, and the previews telegraphed it. Jamie ran back to Cersei, not to kill her but to defend her...yup, hugging it out under 7 tons of rubble. Varys right, Tyrion wrong...yup.
  • Loved...LOVED actually seeing a ####### dragon do dragon stuff! THAT is what you do with a dragon! I feel up until last night the dragons had been held back
  • Did not like the Cersei ending. I thought for sure Jamie was leaving Brienne to end her before she destroyed King's Landing. While I didn't love it, it worked so moving on

    Shame with Jamie because I thought that would have been a satisfying arc for him. I think @Boston Fred nailed it RE: Jamie :thumbup:

[*]I still struggle with tactics on this show but that horse is just a messy puddle in front of the gate of Kings Landing (how'd that taste Harry of the Golden Company?)

[*]Thank the Seven Euron is finally done. They tried to make him into something but in the end he became an easy foil for the show. Didn't like what they did with him in this episode but again, it worked and finished that arc

[*]The Hound/Mountain thing, meh. Had to happen, satisfying ending to the storyline. Was more happy with Qyburn biting it like he did than the Clegane Bowl.

[*]Next week...I feel strongly Jon is going to put an end to Dany. Again, look for the obvious, a Song of Ice & Fire. Jon is the subject, he is both. He;s vanquished Ice, now he has to take care of Fire. Whether Arya is involved or not I'm kinda torn. She might take a run at Dany, get hurt or killed which prompts Jon to go over the edge. Don't really care, Jon will end up downing the Queen of Dragons. What happens to Drogon is puzzling, does he accept Jon as his new rider (I think he does) or do they put him down?

[*]Things finish up with Sansa joining the party at what's left of KL, she and Tyrion renew their vows and rule the North & South together. Jon renounces everything (as he's always said he would, look for the obvious) and heads north to reunite with Ghost and Tormund. Arya heads south to Esso to do whatever the #### she wants

[*]One thing the writers have been reluctant to do that GRRM never was is kill off the main characters. If the books ever wrap up I think we'll see that especially at the battle of Winterfell and then the battle of KL. I was disappointed with everyone making it out alive after Winterfell and as @The Dude pointed out, how many times Arya got concussed, woke back up, got concussed...lather, rinse, repeat. Minor gripe because I think we end up in the same place we are now just with more WTF! :shock: moments like we had in earlier seasons

[*]I enjoyed the episode but I'm also ready for the series to be done. I think Benioff & Weiss had an ending and worked backwards from there in the most expedient way they could. Could the series have benefitted from 10 episodes instead of 6? Probably but ultimately we would have ended up in the same spot we did last night so other than developing Dany's madness a little better I don't know what else you gain from it.

 
jhib said:
But I'd imagine her rationalizing it by saying she swore to her brother.  Since he wasn't her brother, she wasn't bound to it.

Or something like that.
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Sansa has seen Joffrey and Ramsey up close. I don't know if we had enough exposition to show it but it makes sense if she suspected she was looking at another tyrant.

 
bostonfred said:
Similarly, at the beginning of the episode, the horse was like hey, i'm a horse.  But by the end he's like dude i'm a horse that's seen some pretty ####ed up ####.  Did he say that out loud? Neigh. But you could see it in his face. 
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You sir, are #winning the innernets today. Take my like

 
Bran better be warged in that white horse at the end, that would at least make him a little worthwhile here at the end. 

 
badmojo1006 said:
Ghost Rider said:
How was it out of character? 

She burned that witch alive in Season 1. 

She put Xaro in a sealed vault to slowly suffocate to death in Season 2.

She burned Kraznys alive in Season 3. 

etc. 

This side of her personality has always been on full display.  This is not new. 
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And in Season 1, she said her brother deserves it when he got the golden crown
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There was another good post on this somewhere, but this last episode makes sense in this context. Dany didn't just flip. I think also on Essos the people were prone to adulation. Dany was perfect there, she could be merciful. She was adored and almost worshiped. The men in her life also saw her that way, advisors and lovers alike. But the North doesn't do adulation and neither does Jon Snow. - It's funny, things might have gone differently if they had taken out Cersei first and then moved north to take out Night King. The south of Westeros seems more apt towards total monarchy. Going the other way it just worked out differently.

 
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bostonfred said:
Lets talk about Cersei deserving a bigger death. 

First of all, no. She wasn't a warrior.  She was a schemer.  Rich, beautiful, powerful, clever and vicious. She didn't need to die in a sword fight. She needed all those things to be taken from her.
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She at a minimum deserved a death equal to that of Little Finger who was also a scheming non-warrior.

 
On The Rocks said:
She at a minimum deserved a death equal to that of Little Finger who was also a scheming non-warrior.
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You're right, a multi episode arc of everyone attacking the city just to take her out, the walls of king's landing exploding, her army and fleet defeated, her watching it happen and thinking she could still somehow survive, her people surrendering without her command, her hand being killed by the kings guard he created, the kings guard ignoring her to fight his brother, her boyfriend dying, everything she'd ever worked for falling apart around her, her crying when she realizes it's over, then dying in her brother's arms when the only thing that mattered to her was furthering the dynasty and her family including her unborn son but ultimately dying in anonymity and ignominy, utterly defeated, that wasn't enough.

How about the fact that tyrion is the only lannister left? Is that enough? 

 
On The Rocks said:
She at a minimum deserved a death equal to that of Little Finger who was also a scheming non-warrior.
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She was crushed to death by the weight of her own avariceness and ambition.  She was blocked from any escape, and she saw the destruction she had wrought on her incestuous lover who had the Dead Pool like ability to regrow limbs, though it took him much longer than Dead Pool.

 
bostonfred said:
You're right, a multi episode arc of everyone attacking the city just to take her out, the walls of king's landing exploding, her army and fleet defeated, her watching it happen and thinking she could still somehow survive, her people surrendering without her command, her hand being killed by the kings guard he created, the kings guard ignoring her to fight his brother, her boyfriend dying, everything she'd ever worked for falling apart around her, her crying when she realizes it's over, then dying in her brother's arms when the only thing that mattered to her was furthering the dynasty and her family including her unborn son but ultimately dying in anonymity and ignominy, utterly defeated, that wasn't enough.

How about the fact that tyrion is the only lannister left? Is that enough? 
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so perfectly said. 

ya know, for as much of clown show as i perceive D&D to be, i thought Cersei's demise was expertly depicted ... the weight of her entire world literally fell on her shoulders. 

 
hagmania said:
Wow, Bald Move - two guys who have generally been even keel and pretty fair - just popped off on this episode. Kind of shocking tbh, almost as if they had been playing nice for a while and were looking for a reason to go ballistic.

They call it "showrunner malpractice" lolol.
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Thanks for the link.  Never heard these guys before, but they nailed it.

 
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