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Game of Thrones, tv only, books don't exist, no backstory...NERDS already ruining a series that hasn't started (1 Viewer)

Remember when Danaerys unjustly burned people thinking she was doing something morally good (or at least defensible) but it turned out she wasn't, leading us to believe that she had a flawed moral perspective?  Yeah, me neither.  We supported every "dracarys" decision she made.  

You can't get get over the final hurdle with any examples you provide.  There is a fundamental missing link:  taking what is hers with fire and blood will never amount to a cogent explanation for unnecessary genocide.  "I'll help you but only if you bend the knee" has no explanatory purchase for what she did in King's Landing.  None.
Not to mention, Cersei said she would only help Ned if he bent the knee - and she sent ravens to pretty much everyone who were loyal to the North saying the same thing.

We also have the Freys saying the Starks could die outside their walls unless they betrothed their King and Princess to a Frey.

We also have the Tyrells starving Kings Landing and Stannis winning the Battle of the Blackwater unless Margaery becomes queen.

We also have Stannis killing Renly because he wouldn't bend the knee.

We also have Viserys, Illyrio, and Varys selling Daenerys for a Dothraki army.

The entire feudal system in Westeros is based on the quid pro quo structure.

 
I can’t read this thread anymore ... but I keep clicking on it, do I have issues? 

When I say “click on it” ... I’m only just looking at the latest post - no way I’m digging through the “last read” garbage.

Carry on. 

Ps: it’s over bros and gros ... if ya want more, read the books. Or wait for the spinoff.

 
Rewatching ep 6. There are things I'd change in there, but for the first 45 minutes it would be a pretty decent episode 8 of a normal season. 

 
beer 30 said:
Man of Constant Sorrow...you knew nothing :lmao: I kill me!

This is so good. Spot on :thumbup:
Thanks man. 

You slay me as well. 😁

However, I do have a question - not specifically aimed at you, but also at all the others who have expressed the following view (there are many):

beer 30 said:
The further removed I am from the ending the more I come to appreciate just what a total ### Bran really is. I get it if he doesn't possess prescient thought but jeez dude, did you really need to kill all of ####### Westeros to achieve your goal? And more importantly, how long ago in the story did Bran have this course of action mapped out? Ostensibly he would have known this for a while or at a minimum, suspected the potential outcome. I rescind my vote as Dany being the biggest villain on the show and crown the new ####### Bran the Broken. Maybe the NK was right after all?
Irt 1st bold: Can someone explain why they think Bran did the killing?

Irt 2nd bold: What do you mean by "mapped out"? Do you equate seeing the future to making the future?

I understand that he can control things, kinda, via his own actions/magic, but he can only choose from the available options. Imo, he is a seer/magician not a god. Thus, he can't just make everything perfect.

When I go to the supermarket, I can choose what brand of milk to buy - but I can't create a new brand of milk on the spot. I think Bran chose the least spoiled milk currently available in the supermarket of Westeros.

Thus, he was not creating (or doing) what occurred; rather he decided which option (path) would occur out of all the possible and available options (paths).

And since we - as viewers - don't know exactly what would have happened if those other options were taken (sure, we can speculate - but we don't know) - how can we determine if Bran made the morally right decisions?

Bran is the only one that knows. Right? Not just the other possible paths - but also on whether or not he made that choice honorably.

Situation 1: Say he did some uber-magic that saved King's Landing. OK, great. Is the world now saved...or just KL?

Situation 2: Now, what if his visions previously showed him that the saving of KL would lead to a far far worse tragedy further down that road? Was not saving KL then the moral thing to do? Is the world better off, even though KL is ashes?

In short, I am asking others: by what criteria and data are you judging Bran? 

I see potential reasons and arguments that he can be considered "evil" - but I don't think it is the only conclusion.

This is what I like about it, actually.

 
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I can’t read this thread anymore ... but I keep clicking on it, do I have issues? 

When I say “click on it” ... I’m only just looking at the latest post - no way I’m digging through the “last read” garbage.

Carry on. 

Ps: it’s over bros and gros ... if ya want more, read the books. Or wait for the spinoff.
LOL read what books exactly?

 
Scott Tenorman said:
She scared the #### out of me during this.  She would have been interesting to watch with the precious.


That's one of the best scenes in the LOTR trilogy, and one of the few in Peter Jackson's movies where they (wisely) kept almost all of the dialogue from the books.  The book takes pains to show her as this benevolent force, and then she demonstrates what would happen if she accepted the One.  It's awesome. 

 
Scott Tenorman said:
Since the Salon article mentioned Tolkien - I always wondered what would have happened to Galadriel - if she had accepted the One Ring from Frodo.

She was tempted:

Frodo offers the One Ring to Lady Galadriel -The Fellowship of the Ring


She scared the #### out of me during this.  She would have been interesting to watch with the precious.
I honestly think that GRRM actually did show her with the precious.

Since I posted that, I have thought of lots of other connections - but most are boring and not worth listing here. However, the new one that is my personal favorite is this...

Galadriel - from scene linked in quote, but book text:

She lifted up her hand and from the ring that she wore there issued a great light that illuminated her alone and left all else dark. She stood before Frodo seeming now tall beyond measurement, and beautiful beyond enduring, terrible and worshipful. Then she let her hand fall, and the light faded, and suddenly she laughed again, and lo! she was shrunken: a slender elf-woman, clad in simple white, whose gentle voice was soft and sad.

“I pass the test”, she said. “I will diminish, and go into the West and remain Galadriel.”
 Dany did not pass the test. She wanted to continue to use the One Ring (Drogon) to conquer the entire world.

Thus, she diminished as well - but she did not return or go into the Westlike Galadriel - with the heroes:

Lord of the Rings- The Grey Havens 

Rather, Dany returned to the East; the direct opposite direction of Galadriel and the LoTR heroes and elves.

East is the source/archetype of Evil in Tolkien world (during the LoTR time frame), and in Thrones, the East is also the original source of Dany and all Targ's & Dragons. Old Valyria. 

"I am Daenerys Stormborn of House Targaryen, of the blood of Old Valyria. I am the dragon’s daughter!"


So, how does Old Valyria relate to the Grey Havens symbolically?

Valyria was destroyed four centuries ago in a catastrophic volcanic event known as the Doom of Valyria, which shattered the Valyrian Peninsula, wiped out almost all the dragons in the world and created the much-feared Smoking Sea. The only major family of Valyrian dragonlords to survive the Doom were the Targaryens, who were living on Dragonstone at the time. The Targaryen dragons on their island were the only ones in the entire world to survive the cataclysm. A century after the Doom, Aegon I Targaryen invaded Westeros and conquered almost the entire continent, establishing a dynasty that was to last for three centuries.[2][3]
Like the Grey Havens, it is presently an unknown mystery - a place and source itself of magic. Also, the Grey Havens was created after the land was shattered in a previous Great War in Tolkien-world. Unlike LoTR, it has actually appeared in the story. But, it is in ruins. Still a mystery though, imo.

The text above also sounds a bit like Atlantis myths. It also sounds like Avalon myths. It should, imo, because they are all the same general trope with minor variations.

I am truly and firmly convinced, that GRRM did this intentionally. 

Oh - who got to Sail Into the West as a Hero? Arya. She slayed part of the One Ring (Ice Dragon via NK) - like Frodo. I don't think she qualifies as a "ring bearer" - but she was a Hero that did slay a Dragon - a part of the One Ring - plus the NK. 

Jon? He went North as The King - not East - not West. What does that say about him in regards to his moral fate? 

I think Jon was flawed but not fatally. He is the balance point between the two - he is free (Freefolk) now - it is up to him to decide his own future/fate now. Perhaps like Westeros itself? (Another version of...The King = The Land.) Jon is Aragon free from his duty as king - but he is still The King - just as Aragorn always was and would have been even if he had lost the final War of the Ring.

Bran = Throne - a king (selected), but not The King (Divine Right, blood right, inherited) This breaks the wheel of Absolute Monarchy - just as Dany intended. (This is not my own idea - plenty of others have already made this point - I add it for completion.) His is sitting in Aragorn's Throne, but is not Aragorn.

Sansa = Queen of the North - She is at Home. The Shire. She is the world of humanity. And fertility; note the Weirwood inlaid dress she wore at her coronation. She is the hope for the future.

Rickon = Learn to weave buddy. Death.

Am I missing any Stark kids?

 
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...

3) The Sailing into West Avalon by Arya - who's fate was altered by Sandor while she stood upon The Three Sisters - The three who accompanied Arthur into the West in so many versions?

...


Because he was a true Targ and the true King.\

Drogon sniffed 3 times - very biblical and pagan - 3.
In my attempt to explain my ideas better, I am really trying to do a better job of sourcing.

I am sure this is not a clear explanation, but it is something I bet most of us have enjoyed before.

I found it when I was looking for another schoolrock song, and it made me think of this thread. Even if it don't explain much irt Thrones - it's great fun.

Schoolhouse Rock - 3 Is A Magic Number

Somewhere in the ancient mystic trinity
You get three as a magic number
The past and the present and the future


...

When it's three, you can see
It's a magic number


...
☘️  👨‍👩‍👦  🙈🙉🙊 🔱 🔺🔻 :club:  ❤️

Oh - note the run time of the vid... 

... 3:00

 
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Mile High said:
But in the end, didn't she say she was going to fight the army of the dead, before Jon bent the knee?
And then she fought the army of the dead.  Without her armies and dragons, the day would have been lost easily.  Yet, two episodes later she is an evil tyrant.  With really only a "previously on Game of Thrones" montage to setup the heel turn

 
However, I do have a question - not specifically aimed at you, but also at all the others who have expressed the following view (there are many):

Irt 1st bold: Can someone explain why they think Bran did the killing?

Irt 2nd bold: What do you mean by "mapped out"? Do you equate seeing the future to making the future?
Good discussion, I guess you do know something after all :D :thumbup:

  1. I probably should have chosen my words more carefully but obviously Bran didn't do any killing. They way I looked at is he orchestrated the end result. You made a great analogy with him seeing multiple futures and choosing the best option. My response back would be how bad were the other options that killing all of the North and Kings Landing was the best possible outcome? Granted since he has taken on the persona of the Three Eyed Raven, Bran has an air of smugness about him but his response, "why do you think I came all this way?" really made me think he more than the 'best possible outcome' in mind. It comes off like the best possible outcome...for him. Ultimately probably the best for Westeros because it does break the wheel but I don't think even Bran could foresee that far into the future. I just felt like there was some personal gain involved which calls into question killing that many people to place yourself on the throne. I find any scenario other than the NK winning the day and making all of Westeros the Walking Dead the only outcome worse than the one that played out. You bring up a lot of good points but that was what drove my earlier statement.
  2. I covered the "mapping out" part in my above response. Orchestrated...mapping out, call it what you will, meant as the same thing. As for him making the future, no I don't think Bran can make the future but I think he can orchestrate/manipulate events such that there is a high probability of a desired outcome. In this case placing himself on the throne which goes back to point 1 above, there is some self interest in play IMO. Might be totally in left field but just the feeling I had after the whole thing played out.
 
Good discussion, I guess you do know something after all :D :thumbup:

  1. I probably should have chosen my words more carefully but obviously Bran didn't do any killing. They way I looked at is he orchestrated the end result. You made a great analogy with him seeing multiple futures and choosing the best option. My response back would be how bad were the other options that killing all of the North and Kings Landing was the best possible outcome? Granted since he has taken on the persona of the Three Eyed Raven, Bran has an air of smugness about him but his response, "why do you think I came all this way?" really made me think he more than the 'best possible outcome' in mind. It comes off like the best possible outcome...for him. Ultimately probably the best for Westeros because it does break the wheel but I don't think even Bran could foresee that far into the future. I just felt like there was some personal gain involved which calls into question killing that many people to place yourself on the throne. I find any scenario other than the NK winning the day and making all of Westeros the Walking Dead the only outcome worse than the one that played out. You bring up a lot of good points but that was what drove my earlier statement.
  2. I covered the "mapping out" part in my above response. Orchestrated...mapping out, call it what you will, meant as the same thing. As for him making the future, no I don't think Bran can make the future but I think he can orchestrate/manipulate events such that there is a high probability of a desired outcome. In this case placing himself on the throne which goes back to point 1 above, there is some self interest in play IMO. Might be totally in left field but just the feeling I had after the whole thing played out.
This is great man. It's exactly the #### that fascinates me. 

I need to think about this more.

You add some new elements that I have not given enough thought to; most specifically, Bean's smugness, but other things as well. 

I will try to post something more later tonight. 

👍

 
MoCS diggin' all the way to Chiner up in here  :popcorn:
...I dig ditches like the best of 'em 

Heyo peach,

If ya recall (& I know you do), I was a Dany-boy when ya died...and a Jaime-boy when join'd back again - but ... I've grown up a little since then.

<----------------- Imma born again Bran-man now...watch out!

Sincerely, Imma so sorry  :towelwave: bout yer beautiful Queen  :porked:  . Where do I send my condolences 🍖? I have felt awful :pickle:  ever since that ceiling caved in on her :clap: . I truly hate ♥️ that she had to die  :headbang: .

Honest. 🤥

 
:wub:

Heyo peach,

If ya recall (& I know you do), I was a Dany-boy when ya died...and a Jaime-boy when join'd back again - but ... I've grown up a little since then.

<----------------- Imma born again Bran-man now...watch out!
Dany is/was/always shall be an impetuous lil' tvvat - but, ya know, she was FANBOI'd to death becuzz "BOOBIES! AND HEINY!!!! AND, WOOOOWWWWZERRRS! DRAGONS!!!!1!!!1"   :X

she became an insufferable micro c### after Drogo bit it ... saw through her #### and couldn't stomach her nauseating hubris ... #### HER!

now, moving on to Jaime ... ok, i can dig it - dude had a great run from the hand chop to Ser Brienne in the Bear pit, etc ... i gotcha on that one.

but Bran? really? you're now #teamRaisinBran?  say it ain't so, MoX  :no:  that lil' Emo #### won you over?

as far as me dying, well ... i guess i pulled a Jon Snow, eh?  would make @rockaction the Red Woman, no?  :popcorn:

Sincerely, Imma so sorry  :towelwave: bout yer beautiful Queen  :porked:  . Where do I send my condolences 🍖? I have felt awful :pickle:  ever since that ceiling caved in on her :clap: . I truly hate ♥️ that she had to die  :headbang: .

Honest. 🤥
im'ma two steps from goin' all ####### Hatfield on yer ###, BUT - if you were happy to see this and this go, well ... there ain't much more i can say, other than -

LONG LIVE MY QUEEN! 

 
Dany is/was/always shall be an impetuous lil' tvvat - but, ya know, she was FANBOI'd to death becuzz "BOOBIES! AND HEINY!!!! AND, WOOOOWWWWZERRRS! DRAGONS!!!!1!!!1"   :X

she became an insufferable micro c### after Drogo bit it ... saw through her #### and couldn't stomach her nauseating hubris ... #### HER!
... turn off the light.. take a deep breath.. and relax ...

now, moving on to Jaime ... ok, i can dig it - dude had a great run from the hand chop to Ser Brienne in the Bear pit, etc ... i gotcha on that one.
Yeah. I'm still work'n on him - so, I have not truly left his van, but...

but Bran? really? you're now #teamRaisinBran?  say it ain't so, MoX  :no:  that lil' Emo #### won you over?
...Bran on The Throne is such a huge statement from a certain perspective that I can't ignore the little guy - emo or no.

Plus, he is getting so roll'd by hate that he needs a new fool to speak up for him. That be me. 😀

as far as me dying, well ... i guess i pulled a Jon Snow, eh?  would make @rockaction the Red Woman, no?  :popcorn:
Yeah - you been pull'n somepin alright - was it Jon? I dunno - NTTIAWWT . 

Rock = Red ?🤔  ....  Oh yeah!!!!

im'ma two steps from goin' all ####### Hatfield on yer ###, BUT - if you were happy to see this and this go, well ... there ain't much more i can say, other than -
Ok - ok - very nice defense ----- NOT!

LONG LIVE MY QUEEN! 
T0 DA QUEEN!  :suds:

 
I have no idea what you guys are talking about in here. Best I can suss out is that there's some sort of resurrection theme, which means I'm generally for it by inherent disposition, but one caveat: I ain't for dying for some scene or cause.

 
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I have no idea what you guys are talking about in here. Best I can suss out is that there's some sort of resurrection theme, which means I'm generally for it by inherent disposition
... we call it arc up in here  :D

but one caveat: I ain't for dying for some scene or cause.
SAD!

i'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees! - Budski (the immortal Harry Dean Stanton), in "Repo Man"

/scene

:lmao:

... turn off the light.. take a deep breath.. and relax ...

Yeah. I'm still work'n on him - so, I have not truly left his van, but...

...Bran on The Throne is such a huge statement from a certain perspective that I can't ignore the little guy - emo or no.

Plus, he is getting so roll'd by hate that he needs a new fool to speak up for him. That be me. 😀

Yeah - you been pull'n somepin alright - was it Jon? I dunno - NTTIAWWT . 

Rock = Red ?🤔  ....  Oh yeah!!!!

Ok - ok - very nice defense ----- NOT!
:ptts:

 
WAT?

My guy is on the F'n THRONE -- while your Queen is buried under a whole Keep of rubble - eh - I mean 4 bricks - well, it's all the same...

...and you...point to da shirt?

Un-F/n\believeable! 
it was called GAME of Thrones ... and, for my money, no one played it better soup to nutz than mah Queen Cersei  :wub:

Littlefinger/Varys/Tywin/Lady Olenna very close behind, with Littlefinger perhaps as good (the whole ball got rollin' with his assasination of Jon Aryn), but he never seized the true power that Cersei had. 

ergo, 

:ptts:

 
it was called GAME of Thrones ... and, for my money, no one played it better soup to nutz than mah Queen Cersei  :wub:

Littlefinger/Varys/Tywin/Lady Olenna very close behind, with Littlefinger perhaps as good (the whole ball got rollin' with his assasination of Jon Aryn), but he never seized the true power that Cersei had. 

ergo, 

:ptts:
My 🍑 - I will sincerely think long and hard on yous Queen Corpse Cersei.

I admit that she play'd a mean one, especially face-to-face, and had some of the best tactics, but her long range strats seem'd to suffer from her fears - which I admit she learn'd the hard way.

My boy J said it best:

All the worst things she's ever done; she's done for her children. 

So, I get that she did love - and did things for love - that is worthy. 

As a character, whooo nilly yeah - she was top line billing. I get that in droves.

When I work on my Jaime arc, I am going to do Cersei side-by-side (twins and all) - I will use everything you can give me.

Fight fer yous Queen - and she may be redeemed.

😎

 
"It's gonna be like watching World War Z with 5 pairs of sunglasses on"   :lmao:
I literally loled at several points and that was one of them. 

Another is, "You can have more episodes if you want."   

"I just don't see any other way than rushing it.  Damn this short final season."

 
All those lords (the council of surviving characters) who think they are going to get to choose the next king are going to be disappointed when he melds with a tree and lives for like  600 years. What’s that saying? A broken wheel turns into moss?

 
Good discussion, I guess you do know something after all :D :thumbup:

  1. I probably should have chosen my words more carefully but obviously Bran didn't do any killing. They way I looked at is he orchestrated the end result. You made a great analogy with him seeing multiple futures and choosing the best option. My response back would be how bad were the other options that killing all of the North and Kings Landing was the best possible outcome? Granted since he has taken on the persona of the Three Eyed Raven, Bran has an air of smugness about him but his response, "why do you think I came all this way?" really made me think he more than the 'best possible outcome' in mind. It comes off like the best possible outcome...for him. Ultimately probably the best for Westeros because it does break the wheel but I don't think even Bran could foresee that far into the future. I just felt like there was some personal gain involved which calls into question killing that many people to place yourself on the throne. I find any scenario other than the NK winning the day and making all of Westeros the Walking Dead the only outcome worse than the one that played out. You bring up a lot of good points but that was what drove my earlier statement.
  2. I covered the "mapping out" part in my above response. Orchestrated...mapping out, call it what you will, meant as the same thing. As for him making the future, no I don't think Bran can make the future but I think he can orchestrate/manipulate events such that there is a high probability of a desired outcome. In this case placing himself on the throne which goes back to point 1 above, there is some self interest in play IMO. Might be totally in left field but just the feeling I had after the whole thing played out.
This is great man. It's exactly the #### that fascinates me. 

I need to think about this more.

You add some new elements that I have not given enough thought to; most specifically, Bean's smugness, but other things as well. 

I will try to post something more later tonight. 

👍
Well - I am a little late, but I have been thinking a lot about this.

1) 

They way I looked at is he orchestrated the end result. You made a great analogy with him seeing multiple futures and choosing the best option. My response back would be how bad were the other options that killing all of the North and Kings Landing was the best possible outcome?
I agree that he orchestrated the end result. On the bold - I have no answer whatsoever. And, I think that is the way GRRM wants it. No one knows other than Bran.

Thus, the only thing we can do is speculate and follow our intuition. And, I think this is exactly that:

Granted since he has taken on the persona of the Three Eyed Raven, Bran has an air of smugness about him but his response, "why do you think I came all this way?" really made me think he more than the 'best possible outcome' in mind. It comes off like the best possible outcome...for him.
Therefore, irt to this:

Ultimately probably the best for Westeros because it does break the wheel but I don't think even Bran could foresee that far into the future. I just felt like there was some personal gain involved which calls into question killing that many people to place yourself on the throne.
I agree that this is probably the best for Westeros. I especially agree with the word probably. 👍

Also, I agree that Bran most likely could not see that far into the future. Thus, I can more easily accept his mistakes.

I also see the personal gain and agree that it is a red flag for questioning such a horrific war - in all aspects.

I find any scenario other than the NK winning the day and making all of Westeros the Walking Dead the only outcome worse than the one that played out. You bring up a lot of good points but that was what drove my earlier statement.
On this, we obviously disagree, or else this discussion would never have started. At the moment, I still disagree - but I cannot argue with any of your points. I think that once a person has gone through the process you have just explained, there is no debating the validity of the results. You have found your answer. I accept it as valid.

2) Very nice breakdown. It's valid as well.

Thanks for explaining your view to me. It will help me in my reread.

✌️😎

 
Nice breakdown....see i think than bran angle everyone missed....he manipulated controlled it all.....of course the show runners did a poor job showing it....but if you sit back and think... 

 
Maybe Bran is working with the Children of the Forest.  What is the relationship between them and the three eyed raven anyway?

This was all part of a long con, to get humans to wipe out the walkers and get Bran on the throne, so they could continue their millennia old war and wipe humans off Westeros. 

 
Thanks for explaining your view to me. It will help me in my reread.

✌️😎
As always, well done MoCS  :thumbup: . These rereads are going to be interesting to be sure but be careful not to focus too much on what the show has shown us. That’s my fear, that I’m going to read these again through the glasses of GoT’s the show as opposed to GoT’s the story. I forget who but one of the contributors in this thread summed it up well, GRRM gave them the ending and a rough outline how to get there but I think they used a lot of latitude. They made it a Hollywood story as opposed to a GoT’s story.

 
I’m a little confused. Where is all this talk about Bran seeing the future coming from? Did I miss something? I always thought he could only go into the past, hence the NK wanting to kill of the history of man. Whenever he needed to find out what the NK was doing, he warged into crows to see where he was and to get him to come. I know people may point out waiting for Jamie but if he’s seeing recent past he would have known he was estranged from Cersei for months (real time not show time, not sure how long the trip would be).

Also, I can understand the manipulation of people to get the best outcome, but I don’t think Bran could see the future (his crows saw the dragon and their march). Only the priestesses were able to see that. I think that his comment at the end was honestly more of a Hollywoodized scripted ending than a truly well thought out special meaning. I think reading into anything in the last season opens up some incorrect assumptions. I think it’s pretty clear that the writing/stories weren’t the same anymore. I think there was a here’s where we are and here’s the ending, just write something tha takes us from point A to B with closure and moments for the fans with their favorite characters. Reading anything more into it assumes that the script truly was way more well thought out than I assume it was.

 
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Watched this again, so good. Dragons, scorpions, Dothraki and forgetfulness. Makes you feel a little better even though at the same time it makes you feel worse about the show when you realize how true it is.
Yeah, it is a really great commentary.  Which is sad.

 
Most would rather just piss and moan.  The backlash to this last season just shows how awful the internet can be. 
Which ironically supports one of GRRM's main themes throughout the series--people are the worst.

To me, all this complaining reminds me of the scene in Stand By Me, right after Gordie finishes telling his 'barfomrama' story, Teddy says "Then what happened?" 

 

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