Game of Thrones, tv only, books don't exist, no backstory...NERDS already ruining a series that hasn't started (2 Viewers)

[kentric]

I am excited to find out who they cast as the dwarf #### merchant.

If its not Ron Jeremy I'll be pissed.

 

[kentric]

Since Roose Bolton married a Frey, it will be interesting to see if the Frey's get involved with the fight against Stannis.

You think Walder cares about his married off daughter?

Walder will do whatever is in his best interest if pushed into it. He will sit at the twin towers (isnt that what the crossing is called? something like that) and do nothing. No way he comes up to the North to fight for Bolton. No way.

Fair point about Walder. I guess if Bolton goes down, he would ditch the Lannisters and give Allegiance to Stannis, so as not to have to fight him?

I agree. Walder waffles (almost) as much as Tim in a race thread.

 

[Chadstroma]

Since Roose Bolton married a Frey, it will be interesting to see if the Frey's get involved with the fight against Stannis.

You think Walder cares about his married off daughter?

Walder will do whatever is in his best interest if pushed into it. He will sit at the twin towers (isnt that what the crossing is called? something like that) and do nothing. No way he comes up to the North to fight for Bolton. No way.

Fair point about Walder. I guess if Bolton goes down, he would ditch the Lannisters and give Allegiance to Stannis, so as not to have to fight him?

Sure. Why not? He obviously has no real loyalty to anyone. He does not care much about his children that pile up like wood and does not even remember their names or cares to. Why go to the aid of Bolton? If Bolton beats Stannis, he is fine and dandy. If Stannis beats him, why would he not bend the knee to Stannis? Stannis would have no reason for revenge- heck, he did him a favor by getting rid of the King in the North who Stannis considered a traitor to him.

 

[Gr00vus]

Since Roose Bolton married a Frey, it will be interesting to see if the Frey's get involved with the fight against Stannis.

You think Walder cares about his married off daughter?

Walder will do whatever is in his best interest if pushed into it. He will sit at the twin towers (isnt that what the crossing is called? something like that) and do nothing. No way he comes up to the North to fight for Bolton. No way.

Fair point about Walder. I guess if Bolton goes down, he would ditch the Lannisters and give Allegiance to Stannis, so as not to have to fight him?

Sure. Why not? He obviously has no real loyalty to anyone. He does not care much about his children that pile up like wood and does not even remember their names or cares to. Why go to the aid of Bolton? If Bolton beats Stannis, he is fine and dandy. If Stannis beats him, why would he not bend the knee to Stannis? Stannis would have no reason for revenge- heck, he did him a favor by getting rid of the King in the North who Stannis considered a traitor to him.

I don't think Stannis would look too kindly on the type and degree of treachery Frey has been working up to then. Stannis would probably accept his pledge of fealty and then have him burned or something.

 

[Chadstroma]

Since Roose Bolton married a Frey, it will be interesting to see if the Frey's get involved with the fight against Stannis.

You think Walder cares about his married off daughter?

Walder will do whatever is in his best interest if pushed into it. He will sit at the twin towers (isnt that what the crossing is called? something like that) and do nothing. No way he comes up to the North to fight for Bolton. No way.

Fair point about Walder. I guess if Bolton goes down, he would ditch the Lannisters and give Allegiance to Stannis, so as not to have to fight him?

Sure. Why not? He obviously has no real loyalty to anyone. He does not care much about his children that pile up like wood and does not even remember their names or cares to. Why go to the aid of Bolton? If Bolton beats Stannis, he is fine and dandy. If Stannis beats him, why would he not bend the knee to Stannis? Stannis would have no reason for revenge- heck, he did him a favor by getting rid of the King in the North who Stannis considered a traitor to him.

I don't think Stannis would look too kindly on the type and degree of treachery Frey has been working up to then. Stannis would probably accept his pledge of fealty and then have him burned or something.

Sure. Not saying that Stannis would trust him. Likely would make him give up Riverun but I can't see Frey standing up against Stannis either with or without Bolton. I could see the Lannisters sending a force northward to meet Stannis and Frey going along- but his history is one that seems to be the easiest road is the one he chooses.

 

[KarmaPolice]

I know, I know

I listen to a couple GoT podcasts and one of them basically opened with an hour discussion about the episode and the scene, and I thought brought up great points on why people are upset with what they have been doing (their thoughts on the podcast):

- the main point was that it was a complete 180 from the character of Sansa that they have built up for the last season +. This is a girl who has been through a marriage to a psycho, been getting pointers from Littlefinger, just got info that episode as to what might be going on, and had been showing signs of playing the game. Then the wedding and bedding scene happens and she is reverted back to the shaking, crying old Sansa who has no agency in her situation. She becomes a prop and they don't even have the balls to linger on her to show her pain/emotions during it.

- her trauma is turned into Reek's trauma. The scene is shot in a way that has barely anything to do with her, and all about how poor Reek is reacting to this playing out in front of him.

- for a show that supposedly has great writers, this is a weak and overdone plot device. Just about any show or movie you see where a woman "gets strong" and takes revenge for something, guess what is the catalyst for that. It is as though the murder of her family and all the horrors she has endured just isn't enough. This is the thing that is needed to motivate her to do something. Also undercuts the emotion of it by using it as the catalyst in that way.

- Martin himself has stated that he wanted this to be viewed through the lens of modern times. Sure there is the threat of rape throughout his world and books, just like women feel there is that threat for them now. Only one maybe two women are raped in the books - it is the showrunners and HBO that are choosing to add this scene, Cersei last year, Roz getting the bolt through the vajay, Joffrey making the hookers beat each other, etc., etc..

I thought there was some interesting points being made (I bet some have been made here in the shuffle too). Nothing to do with banning scenes like this, etc.. that people jump to conclusions about the other way. Just that it is tired, lazy, and undercuts the character they were building up.

 

[Frostillicus]

Can we just stop with even discussing that ####### scene. Jesus christ already.

 

[bentley]

Can we just stop with even discussing that ####### scene. Jesus christ already.

Lots of ####ty stuff to talk about on the show right now. No need to overdo it on one scene.

 

[DevilDog919]

I won the 12:30 $20.

Send to SSlayton10@gmail

 

[Frostillicus]

I won the 12:30 $20.

Send to SSlayton10@gmail

Makes sense.

 

[skol asylum]

I won the 12:30 $20.

Send to SSlayton10@gmail

A Lannister always pays his debts.

Hey, quick look, what's over there?

#pullsknife #rainsofcastamere

 

[Spin]

Cersei wasn't raped. She was objecting because she was afraid of being caught.

 

[sn0mm1s]

- Martin himself has stated that he wanted this to be viewed through the lens of modern times. Sure there is the threat of rape throughout his world and books, just like women feel there is that threat for them now. Only one maybe two women are raped in the books - it is the showrunners and HBO that are choosing to add this scene, Cersei last year, Roz getting the bolt through the vajay, Joffrey making the hookers beat each other, etc., etc..

Spoiler

A lot more than that are raped but just not main POV characters. Off the top of my head:

Elia

Lollys

Mirri Maz Dur (and most of the women Dany claims)

Pia

Inn Keeper's daughter (by the Mountain and his men)

Various women (and boys) by the Brave Companions

Ramsay's mother

Jeyne Poole

The women put in the stocks when Roose Bolton takes over Harrenhal

Tysha

Craster's wives/daughters with the Craster and the rogue Night's Watch

Varamyr's women

I am sure there are some I am forgetting.

 

[renesauz]

Surprised by all the rape comments. Even by modern standards it would be hard to call that rape (she never said no, started undressing herself, wedding night and all), but one could make that argument I suppose. By medieval standards??? Not REMOTELY close.

Argue gratuitous all you want (which is silly considering how much gratutious sex has been in GOT), but it isn't rape. Heck....even if it WERE, they showed almost nothing.

It isn't worth all of this argument.

 

[renesauz]

I know, I know

I listen to a couple GoT podcasts and one of them basically opened with an hour discussion about the episode and the scene, and I thought brought up great points on why people are upset with what they have been doing (their thoughts on the podcast):

- the main point was that it was a complete 180 from the character of Sansa that they have built up for the last season +. This is a girl who has been through a marriage to a psycho, been getting pointers from Littlefinger, just got info that episode as to what might be going on, and had been showing signs of playing the game. Then the wedding and bedding scene happens and she is reverted back to the shaking, crying old Sansa who has no agency in her situation. She becomes a prop and they don't even have the balls to linger on her to show her pain/emotions during it.

- her trauma is turned into Reek's trauma. The scene is shot in a way that has barely anything to do with her, and all about how poor Reek is reacting to this playing out in front of him.

- for a show that supposedly has great writers, this is a weak and overdone plot device. Just about any show or movie you see where a woman "gets strong" and takes revenge for something, guess what is the catalyst for that. It is as though the murder of her family and all the horrors she has endured just isn't enough. This is the thing that is needed to motivate her to do something. Also undercuts the emotion of it by using it as the catalyst in that way.

- Martin himself has stated that he wanted this to be viewed through the lens of modern times. Sure there is the threat of rape throughout his world and books, just like women feel there is that threat for them now. Only one maybe two women are raped in the books - it is the showrunners and HBO that are choosing to add this scene, Cersei last year, Roz getting the bolt through the vajay, Joffrey making the hookers beat each other, etc., etc..

I thought there was some interesting points being made (I bet some have been made here in the shuffle too). Nothing to do with banning scenes like this, etc.. that people jump to conclusions about the other way. Just that it is tired, lazy, and undercuts the character they were building up.

This simply isn't true. Sansa clearly was uncomfortable with it, but it was also clear that she was going to go through with it (sex). The hesitation only came when he told "Reek" to stay and watch. She had to marry him, and therefore she had to have sex with him....and owning up to those two things wasn't a sign of weakness, wasn't a "backslide". It was pragmatic and unfortunately necessary. If she is to get inside the Bolton camp and destroy them from the inside, she had no choice but to play dutiful wife at that point. The pitiful whiney little girl would have been distraught and screaming, not limited to a whimper as her virginity was very roughly taken from her.

 

[shadyridr]

Oh jesus christ karma, get over it.

 

[KarmaPolice]

- Martin himself has stated that he wanted this to be viewed through the lens of modern times. Sure there is the threat of rape throughout his world and books, just like women feel there is that threat for them now. Only one maybe two women are raped in the books - it is the showrunners and HBO that are choosing to add this scene, Cersei last year, Roz getting the bolt through the vajay, Joffrey making the hookers beat each other, etc., etc..

Spoiler

A lot more than that are raped but just not main POV characters. Off the top of my head:

Elia

Lollys

Mirri Maz Dur (and most of the women Dany claims)

Pia

Inn Keeper's daughter (by the Mountain and his men)

Various women (and boys) by the Brave Companions

Ramsay's mother

Jeyne Poole

The women put in the stocks when Roose Bolton takes over Harrenhal

Tysha

Craster's wives/daughters with the Craster and the rogue Night's Watch

Varamyr's women

I am sure there are some I am forgetting.

Interesting. Maybe the point was of what GRRM describes/shows us directly vs. what the TV show is choosing to show. You of anybody would know the answer to that - my memory sucks.

 

[Weeber]

I know, I know

I listen to a couple GoT podcasts and one of them basically opened with an hour discussion about the episode and the scene, and I thought brought up great points on why people are upset with what they have been doing (their thoughts on the podcast):

- the main point was that it was a complete 180 from the character of Sansa that they have built up for the last season +. This is a girl who has been through a marriage to a psycho, been getting pointers from Littlefinger, just got info that episode as to what might be going on, and had been showing signs of playing the game. Then the wedding and bedding scene happens and she is reverted back to the shaking, crying old Sansa who has no agency in her situation. She becomes a prop and they don't even have the balls to linger on her to show her pain/emotions during it.

- her trauma is turned into Reek's trauma. The scene is shot in a way that has barely anything to do with her, and all about how poor Reek is reacting to this playing out in front of him.

- for a show that supposedly has great writers, this is a weak and overdone plot device. Just about any show or movie you see where a woman "gets strong" and takes revenge for something, guess what is the catalyst for that. It is as though the murder of her family and all the horrors she has endured just isn't enough. This is the thing that is needed to motivate her to do something. Also undercuts the emotion of it by using it as the catalyst in that way.

- Martin himself has stated that he wanted this to be viewed through the lens of modern times. Sure there is the threat of rape throughout his world and books, just like women feel there is that threat for them now. Only one maybe two women are raped in the books - it is the showrunners and HBO that are choosing to add this scene, Cersei last year, Roz getting the bolt through the vajay, Joffrey making the hookers beat each other, etc., etc..

I thought there was some interesting points being made (I bet some have been made here in the shuffle too). Nothing to do with banning scenes like this, etc.. that people jump to conclusions about the other way. Just that it is tired, lazy, and undercuts the character they were building up.

Wow just when my boner went away you had to remind me of that scene. Mmmmmm so tastey.

 

[The Ref]

Any of you guys see that rape scene this week? Wow that was bad!

 

[Godsbrother]

- her trauma is turned into Reek's trauma. The scene is shot in a way that has barely anything to do with her, and all about how poor Reek is reacting to this playing out in front of him.

I don't know anyone else but I didn't feel sorry for poor Reek at all. Reek is a PoS -- this only reaffirmed my feelings.

 

[CBusAlex]

Just that it is tired, lazy, and undercuts the character they were building up.

You know what's tired and lazy? Complaining about this scene.

 

[RUSF18]

Even Sansa has moved on.

 

[kentric]

Even Sansa has moved on.

She may have moved on, but she's sure walking pretty funny.

 

[Sinn Fein]

Odds on who gets raped this week?

 

[TobiasFunke]

In an effort to move on:

Did this maybe get so much attention because people were already disappointed and critical of the show after a really weak episode? The trial was silly and terrible, as many people have mentioned. The stuff in Dorne was poorly executed- others have mentioned the sand snakes and the fight. But I also thought the twist where the pirates decide not to kill Tyrion so they can sell his #### was absurd.

The idea that these pirates suddenly decide to deal with keeping a prisoner for God knows how long just so they can sell his #### because dwarf #### is valuable enough to make it worthwhile, but somehow: (1) it hadn't occurred to them that they wouldn't have proof of its dwarf-ness if they cut it off before the transaction until Jorah pointed it out to them, and (2) we've been following a dwarf as one of the show's main characters for five seasons and this is the first we've heard about his #### being a prized possession? Come on. That's some silly, lazy storytelling.

I trust the people who've made this amazing show for so long, and I think they'll turn it around and the last four episodes will be great. But I think a lot of people think the show has slipped a bit this year, and the annoyance with the Sansa/Ramsay scene might be a product of that since that was the big close to the episode and was really just more of the same- people were hoping it turned the corner or delivered some payoff, but instead it was just something horrible happening to a Stark and to Theon/Reek. Again.

 

[RUSF18]

The idea that these pirates suddenly decide to deal with keeping a prisoner for God knows how long just so they can sell his #### because dwarf #### is valuable enough to make it worthwhile, but somehow: (1) it hadn't occurred to them that they wouldn't have proof of its dwarf-ness if they cut it off before the transaction until Jorah pointed it out to them, and (2) we've been following a dwarf as one of the show's main characters for five seasons and this is the first we've heard about his #### being a prized possession? Come on. That's some silly, lazy storytelling.

I was thinking about this yesterday. I wonder what other potential plot devices Martin threw in the trash before "selling dwarf ####" was decided upon.

 

[El Floppo]

Aside from a short-lived power-grab, I'm trying to see Cercei's endgame with the moves she's making. Can't imagine she's not going to get bit by all of this. and not in a rapey way.

 

[Sinn Fein]

The idea that these pirates suddenly decide to deal with keeping a prisoner for God knows how long just so they can sell his #### because dwarf #### is valuable enough to make it worthwhile, but somehow: (1) it hadn't occurred to them that they wouldn't have proof of its dwarf-ness if they cut it off before the transaction until Jorah pointed it out to them, and (2) we've been following a dwarf as one of the show's main characters for five seasons and this is the first we've heard about his #### being a prized possession? Come on. That's some silly, lazy storytelling.

I was thinking about this yesterday. I wonder what other potential plot devices Martin threw in the trash before "selling dwarf ####" was decided upon.

Traveling as a slave as part of a midget side-show - like the midgets that performed at Joffrey's wedding...

 

[Mile High]

What people are watchful of is can the show writers be trusted. So far this season it is having mixed results.

 

[Sinn Fein]

Aside from a short-lived power-grab, I'm trying to see Cercei's endgame with the moves she's making. Can't imagine she's not going to get bit by all of this. and not in a rapey way.

Her endgame has been foreshadowed...

 

[El Floppo]

Aside from a short-lived power-grab, I'm trying to see Cercei's endgame with the moves she's making. Can't imagine she's not going to get bit by all of this. and not in a rapey way.

Her endgame has been foreshadowed...

rape?

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

Even Sansa has moved on.

She may have moved on, but she's sure walking pretty funny.

That's twice.

Roarin?

 

[shadyridr]

Aside from a short-lived power-grab, I'm trying to see Cercei's endgame with the moves she's making. Can't imagine she's not going to get bit by all of this. and not in a rapey way.

Her endgame has been foreshadowed...

Alcoholism?

 

[Yankee23Fan]

I know, I know

I listen to a couple GoT podcasts and one of them basically opened with an hour discussion about the episode and the scene, and I thought brought up great points on why people are upset with what they have been doing (their thoughts on the podcast):

- the main point was that it was a complete 180 from the character of Sansa that they have built up for the last season +. This is a girl who has been through a marriage to a psycho, been getting pointers from Littlefinger, just got info that episode as to what might be going on, and had been showing signs of playing the game. Then the wedding and bedding scene happens and she is reverted back to the shaking, crying old Sansa who has no agency in her situation. She becomes a prop and they don't even have the balls to linger on her to show her pain/emotions during it.

- her trauma is turned into Reek's trauma. The scene is shot in a way that has barely anything to do with her, and all about how poor Reek is reacting to this playing out in front of him.

- for a show that supposedly has great writers, this is a weak and overdone plot device. Just about any show or movie you see where a woman "gets strong" and takes revenge for something, guess what is the catalyst for that. It is as though the murder of her family and all the horrors she has endured just isn't enough. This is the thing that is needed to motivate her to do something. Also undercuts the emotion of it by using it as the catalyst in that way.

- Martin himself has stated that he wanted this to be viewed through the lens of modern times. Sure there is the threat of rape throughout his world and books, just like women feel there is that threat for them now. Only one maybe two women are raped in the books - it is the showrunners and HBO that are choosing to add this scene, Cersei last year, Roz getting the bolt through the vajay, Joffrey making the hookers beat each other, etc., etc..

I thought there was some interesting points being made (I bet some have been made here in the shuffle too). Nothing to do with banning scenes like this, etc.. that people jump to conclusions about the other way. Just that it is tired, lazy, and undercuts the character they were building up.

Again, not really feeling the work aspect of my day... and this turned out to be a little longer than it should be because I really don't want to work today so I just spoilered it so people can skip over it if they want.

Spoiler

1. This is an assumption based on the fact that this was the end scene of the show. Had this been the first scene of the show and by the end of the hour she was splitting his skull with an ax, no one would be making this argument I think. And I don't agree that it is a change to her character or a 180 from where she was heading. First off, Sansa is not innocent. In as much as she has been one of if not the most sympathetic character on the show, the fact remains that at a moment where could have kept any innocence she had left, she lied in a quasi-trial and covered up a murder of her aunt, protecting the murderer. Had she told the truth in that moment, she would still be in a safe place and Littlefinger would have been executed himself. So, going back to the string that lies and the consequences for lies are the main theme of this episode and in many ways the whole season, her lie at that moment cost her this scene. In that, this is not a 180 for her character. And even after that lie, she had the opportunity to turn around when Littlefinger told her what was going to happen and she didn't. She has people of north saying they are there to prtect her and she did nothing. Maybe the correct argument here isn't that she was playing the game and now this was her going back to the beginning - it was her playing the game poorly and not understanding the very real consequences for every action and decision.

2. Why is this a problem? Think this argument through - we hate this scene because it is the rape of an innocent character that has been through so much and the writers just keep beating us down like this and they didn't have to do this - and at the same time - why didn't they focus on her pain more? How dare they take her pain and turn the focus of the scene to Reek. If they are going to put her through that, then we should be able to see more pain and anguish for her. This is the very argument that makes all the others fail. People aren't mad at the scene, they are mad because it didn't fit what they want to happen.

3. The overdone argument. I find this to be the weakest argument of them all. The problem here isn't the rape - that is clear. The problem is the rape of this character. If this was the Bolton kid doing it to a town wench no one would really bat an eye. If this was Joffrey or Lord Bolton and insert woman here no one would care. There was almost no comments from any of the outraged blogs about the sacking of all the women by the rebels Knights of the Watch and we've been over Drogo and Dany. This argument also assumes that the rape is being used as a plot device that the people don't like - as I said above. And what's more we are again seeing people argue out of both sides - Sansa was playing the game, she was learning from Littlefinger she was taking control, and then they do this to her. But if she was playing the game she was doing something that was not a total good in this universe. The game is lying cheating stealing killing and raping all for the continuation of glory and power. Name one character in this entire universe that has gotten out of that free and clear? She suffered enough? By whose standards?

4. The overall tone of the sex and violence of the show is in many respects over done. But let's also understand that. How many people in this thread have been complaining about the lack of action these season? That lack of action is a lack of all the blood sex and gore that has defined the series. Now, this season, that is very much psychological and less about battles and more about the torment that comes along with the nature of this game, people are bored. Why are they bored? Several people have died this season. There have been fights and blood. There was a story told by a lead character how he murdered a husband and raped his wife under the body. People have had their throat cut. A lord was burned alive by a dragon on screen. The show hasn't lacked blood violence gore sex and death - is has lacked the in your face every moment of that stuff that previous seasons gave you. So we have people complaining that nothing is happening this year and at the same time complaining that this particular piece of violence is overdone. In the midst of talking about a show on HBO. Unless it's a comedy, you are going to have a lot of sex and blood. Oz had it almost all the time and the episodes people hated were the ones where it didn't happen all that much. Rome had it in almost every single scene, let alone episode and people. Sopranos? Anyone remember Richie? I really think that the complaints about this particular point are missing the fact that this isn't ABC or CBS.

5. tired lazy undercuts.

I really don't get any of them. I don't think this was tired. Sansa has now been brutally and personally cast forth into the game she was pretending to play. Reek now has the potential for a moment of clarity. Sansa can now see the trauma that Theon has suffered and might be able to accept him again. Ramsey has now lied to Littlefinger. And all the psychological currents that we could add now as well. I don't think the scene was tired at all. First off, everyone is talking about it, which disproves that point. Second, all of us have basically said we were left wanting more, something more in that scene. Tired writing doesn't do that in this way. And if we get the release of Ramsey's death that experience will be more powerful. I guarantee you that there will be posts, tweets, blogs and stories that basically start with the line - AND THAT WAS FOR SANSA YOU PIECE OF ****.

Lazy? Why? Because other women have been raped and they could have done something different? We've been over that. The different is just another form of violence - Theon killing Ramsey, Sansa fighting him. Something like that. Maybe they could have just let us assume it happened the next morning at breakfast. Why? Would that make the rape of Sansa less emotional? If it would ,why? Because we then didn't see her cry on the bed? So somehow it's now not so much the rape, it's the rape of Sansa, and it's the rape of Sansa that we saw because she was crying? But if we didn't see it then the whole rap culture aspect of the attacks here wouldn't exist? What does that say about the people making that argument?

Undercuts? How? We don't know what is going to happen after yet. If this was the final episode of the show. maybe this is a good point. But now? We've got 4 more shows this year and a few more years ahead of us. All this did was set her back, if anything. And setbacks aren't exactly uncommon in this world.

I get the visceral reaction to rape in any format and it is well deserved. It really shouldn't be joked about, used in any way that shows a good or frankly used in entertainment at all. People that are entertained by a story that includes as one of its components the rape of women are all on some level sick (and that includes all of us for watching the show and/or reading the books). It should always be considered one of the most truly awful things ever to be done by a man to a woman. And in that, doing it to a character that we like and who we empathize with just makes it that much worse. But the overraction and vitriol because of this one scene in a show that isn't exactly rated G and hasn't pulled a single punch? I just find that a bit much. And I've said it here - I'd be fine with no more sex in the show at all. I get the point now, thanks. I'd even be ok with no more blood or seeing a head getting chopped off. Again, I get the point. Violence can be non-bloody and still be effective. But this is HBO and people watch that stuff because that is what they want. IF we didn't, there would be 75 billion cop/murder/crime shows on TV. HBO gets to take it to another level.

If this turns into nothing more than a snuff film of a show 10 times a year - then yeah, yell at the writers and condemn the show. But now? At this point? I'm nowhere near that yet.

 

[kentric]

Even Sansa has moved on.

She may have moved on, but she's sure walking pretty funny.

That's twice.

Roarin?

Third time lucky they say.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Aside from a short-lived power-grab, I'm trying to see Cercei's endgame with the moves she's making. Can't imagine she's not going to get bit by all of this. and not in a rapey way.

I think she is basically losing her mind and trying to be her father, and she isn't her father. He could think 10 moves ahead of everyone. She thinks she can but can only go 2 and set off too many things in motion that she has no control of anymore.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Senator Claire McCaskill (D-Missouri) has tweeted that she is done with the show because of the last episode.

This has become as entertaining as the show.

 

[Gr00vus]

Senator Claire McCaskill (D-Missouri) has tweeted that she is done with the show because of the last episode.

This has become as entertaining as the show.

All in all, it was a pretty crummy episode, and the show does seem to be trending down. She's just trying to get ahead of the curve here.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Senator Claire McCaskill (D-Missouri) has tweeted that she is done with the show because of the last episode.

This has become as entertaining as the show.

All in all, it was a pretty crummy episode, and the show does seem to be trending down. She's just trying to get ahead of the curve here.

The Game of Thrones the musical that Coldplay did for red nose day is hysterical by the way. I would say if you hated this season, at least there is that. That should bring you back to the fold.

 

[Gr00vus]

Senator Claire McCaskill (D-Missouri) has tweeted that she is done with the show because of the last episode.

This has become as entertaining as the show.

All in all, it was a pretty crummy episode, and the show does seem to be trending down. She's just trying to get ahead of the curve here.

The Game of Thrones the musical that Coldplay did for red nose day is hysterical by the way. I would say if you hated this season, at least there is that. That should bring you back to the fold.

Oh, I'll keep watching as long as it's on. I made it through all the White Queen and Pillars of the Earth shows, the best of which sucked much harder than the worst of Game Of Thrones. Quit in the middle of the 1st episode of World Without End though - indescribably bad.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Aside from a short-lived power-grab, I'm trying to see Cercei's endgame with the moves she's making. Can't imagine she's not going to get bit by all of this. and not in a rapey way.

The problem with Cersei always has been: she is not nearly as smart as she thinks she is. She made a big mistake messing with someone a lot smarter than she is with the Queen of Thorns.

My guess is that Littlefinger undercuts her and teams up with QoT. He gets a promise from her about the North, along with the deal he made with Cersei, and his ### is covered no matter who comes out in that battle.

 

[KarmaPolice]

I know, I know

I listen to a couple GoT podcasts and one of them basically opened with an hour discussion about the episode and the scene, and I thought brought up great points on why people are upset with what they have been doing (their thoughts on the podcast):

- the main point was that it was a complete 180 from the character of Sansa that they have built up for the last season +. This is a girl who has been through a marriage to a psycho, been getting pointers from Littlefinger, just got info that episode as to what might be going on, and had been showing signs of playing the game. Then the wedding and bedding scene happens and she is reverted back to the shaking, crying old Sansa who has no agency in her situation. She becomes a prop and they don't even have the balls to linger on her to show her pain/emotions during it.

- her trauma is turned into Reek's trauma. The scene is shot in a way that has barely anything to do with her, and all about how poor Reek is reacting to this playing out in front of him.

- for a show that supposedly has great writers, this is a weak and overdone plot device. Just about any show or movie you see where a woman "gets strong" and takes revenge for something, guess what is the catalyst for that. It is as though the murder of her family and all the horrors she has endured just isn't enough. This is the thing that is needed to motivate her to do something. Also undercuts the emotion of it by using it as the catalyst in that way.

- Martin himself has stated that he wanted this to be viewed through the lens of modern times. Sure there is the threat of rape throughout his world and books, just like women feel there is that threat for them now. Only one maybe two women are raped in the books - it is the showrunners and HBO that are choosing to add this scene, Cersei last year, Roz getting the bolt through the vajay, Joffrey making the hookers beat each other, etc., etc..

I thought there was some interesting points being made (I bet some have been made here in the shuffle too). Nothing to do with banning scenes like this, etc.. that people jump to conclusions about the other way. Just that it is tired, lazy, and undercuts the character they were building up.

Again, not really feeling the work aspect of my day... and this turned out to be a little longer than it should be because I really don't want to work today so I just spoilered it so people can skip over it if they want.

Spoiler

1. This is an assumption based on the fact that this was the end scene of the show. Had this been the first scene of the show and by the end of the hour she was splitting his skull with an ax, no one would be making this argument I think. And I don't agree that it is a change to her character or a 180 from where she was heading. First off, Sansa is not innocent. In as much as she has been one of if not the most sympathetic character on the show, the fact remains that at a moment where could have kept any innocence she had left, she lied in a quasi-trial and covered up a murder of her aunt, protecting the murderer. Had she told the truth in that moment, she would still be in a safe place and Littlefinger would have been executed himself. So, going back to the string that lies and the consequences for lies are the main theme of this episode and in many ways the whole season, her lie at that moment cost her this scene. In that, this is not a 180 for her character. And even after that lie, she had the opportunity to turn around when Littlefinger told her what was going to happen and she didn't. She has people of north saying they are there to prtect her and she did nothing. Maybe the correct argument here isn't that she was playing the game and now this was her going back to the beginning - it was her playing the game poorly and not understanding the very real consequences for every action and decision.

2. Why is this a problem? Think this argument through - we hate this scene because it is the rape of an innocent character that has been through so much and the writers just keep beating us down like this and they didn't have to do this - and at the same time - why didn't they focus on her pain more? How dare they take her pain and turn the focus of the scene to Reek. If they are going to put her through that, then we should be able to see more pain and anguish for her. This is the very argument that makes all the others fail. People aren't mad at the scene, they are mad because it didn't fit what they want to happen.

3. The overdone argument. I find this to be the weakest argument of them all. The problem here isn't the rape - that is clear. The problem is the rape of this character. If this was the Bolton kid doing it to a town wench no one would really bat an eye. If this was Joffrey or Lord Bolton and insert woman here no one would care. There was almost no comments from any of the outraged blogs about the sacking of all the women by the rebels Knights of the Watch and we've been over Drogo and Dany. This argument also assumes that the rape is being used as a plot device that the people don't like - as I said above. And what's more we are again seeing people argue out of both sides - Sansa was playing the game, she was learning from Littlefinger she was taking control, and then they do this to her. But if she was playing the game she was doing something that was not a total good in this universe. The game is lying cheating stealing killing and raping all for the continuation of glory and power. Name one character in this entire universe that has gotten out of that free and clear? She suffered enough? By whose standards?

4. The overall tone of the sex and violence of the show is in many respects over done. But let's also understand that. How many people in this thread have been complaining about the lack of action these season? That lack of action is a lack of all the blood sex and gore that has defined the series. Now, this season, that is very much psychological and less about battles and more about the torment that comes along with the nature of this game, people are bored. Why are they bored? Several people have died this season. There have been fights and blood. There was a story told by a lead character how he murdered a husband and raped his wife under the body. People have had their throat cut. A lord was burned alive by a dragon on screen. The show hasn't lacked blood violence gore sex and death - is has lacked the in your face every moment of that stuff that previous seasons gave you. So we have people complaining that nothing is happening this year and at the same time complaining that this particular piece of violence is overdone. In the midst of talking about a show on HBO. Unless it's a comedy, you are going to have a lot of sex and blood. Oz had it almost all the time and the episodes people hated were the ones where it didn't happen all that much. Rome had it in almost every single scene, let alone episode and people. Sopranos? Anyone remember Richie? I really think that the complaints about this particular point are missing the fact that this isn't ABC or CBS.

5. tired lazy undercuts.

I really don't get any of them. I don't think this was tired. Sansa has now been brutally and personally cast forth into the game she was pretending to play. Reek now has the potential for a moment of clarity. Sansa can now see the trauma that Theon has suffered and might be able to accept him again. Ramsey has now lied to Littlefinger. And all the psychological currents that we could add now as well. I don't think the scene was tired at all. First off, everyone is talking about it, which disproves that point. Second, all of us have basically said we were left wanting more, something more in that scene. Tired writing doesn't do that in this way. And if we get the release of Ramsey's death that experience will be more powerful. I guarantee you that there will be posts, tweets, blogs and stories that basically start with the line - AND THAT WAS FOR SANSA YOU PIECE OF ****.

Lazy? Why? Because other women have been raped and they could have done something different? We've been over that. The different is just another form of violence - Theon killing Ramsey, Sansa fighting him. Something like that. Maybe they could have just let us assume it happened the next morning at breakfast. Why? Would that make the rape of Sansa less emotional? If it would ,why? Because we then didn't see her cry on the bed? So somehow it's now not so much the rape, it's the rape of Sansa, and it's the rape of Sansa that we saw because she was crying? But if we didn't see it then the whole rap culture aspect of the attacks here wouldn't exist? What does that say about the people making that argument?

Undercuts? How? We don't know what is going to happen after yet. If this was the final episode of the show. maybe this is a good point. But now? We've got 4 more shows this year and a few more years ahead of us. All this did was set her back, if anything. And setbacks aren't exactly uncommon in this world.

I get the visceral reaction to rape in any format and it is well deserved. It really shouldn't be joked about, used in any way that shows a good or frankly used in entertainment at all. People that are entertained by a story that includes as one of its components the rape of women are all on some level sick (and that includes all of us for watching the show and/or reading the books). It should always be considered one of the most truly awful things ever to be done by a man to a woman. And in that, doing it to a character that we like and who we empathize with just makes it that much worse. But the overraction and vitriol because of this one scene in a show that isn't exactly rated G and hasn't pulled a single punch? I just find that a bit much. And I've said it here - I'd be fine with no more sex in the show at all. I get the point now, thanks. I'd even be ok with no more blood or seeing a head getting chopped off. Again, I get the point. Violence can be non-bloody and still be effective. But this is HBO and people watch that stuff because that is what they want. IF we didn't, there would be 75 billion cop/murder/crime shows on TV. HBO gets to take it to another level.

If this turns into nothing more than a snuff film of a show 10 times a year - then yeah, yell at the writers and condemn the show. But now? At this point? I'm nowhere near that yet.

Will read through that tonight. Little longer than I expected- you related to GRRM?

 

[KarmaPolice]

The idea that these pirates suddenly decide to deal with keeping a prisoner for God knows how long just so they can sell his #### because dwarf #### is valuable enough to make it worthwhile, but somehow: (1) it hadn't occurred to them that they wouldn't have proof of its dwarf-ness if they cut it off before the transaction until Jorah pointed it out to them, and (2) we've been following a dwarf as one of the show's main characters for five seasons and this is the first we've heard about his #### being a prized possession? Come on. That's some silly, lazy storytelling.

I was thinking about this yesterday. I wonder what other potential plot devices Martin threw in the trash before "selling dwarf ####" was decided upon.

I am trying to find the link again, but thought I saw that seems to be slowly distancing himself from the show. Don't think he had #### merchants in Essos.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Senator Claire McCaskill (D-Missouri) has tweeted that she is done with the show because of the last episode.

This has become as entertaining as the show.

Honestly, this I expected.

What I was interested in was the same reaction from the podcasts I check out and writers that I read during the week. These are people who contribute to sites like Tower of the Hand and other GoT stuff, and both men and women. When I started seeing/hearing they were pissed and not wanting to cover the show anymore I was really interested in what their reasons were.

 

[Chadstroma]

Senator Claire McCaskill (D-Missouri) has tweeted that she is done with the show because of the last episode.

This has become as entertaining as the show.

Honestly, this I expected.

What I was interested in was the same reaction from the podcasts I check out and writers that I read during the week. These are people who contribute to sites like Tower of the Hand and other GoT stuff, and both men and women. When I started seeing/hearing they were pissed and not wanting to cover the show anymore I was really interested in what their reasons were.

Is that because of the scene or because it is different from the things that don't exist.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Senator Claire McCaskill (D-Missouri) has tweeted that she is done with the show because of the last episode.

This has become as entertaining as the show.

Honestly, this I expected.What I was interested in was the same reaction from the podcasts I check out and writers that I read during the week. These are people who contribute to sites like Tower of the Hand and other GoT stuff, and both men and women. When I started seeing/hearing they were pissed and not wanting to cover the show anymore I was really interested in what their reasons were.

Is that because of the scene or because it is different from the things that don't exist.

Yes.

My post a few above were not my rambles, but the points they were making as to why they were pissed. Also combination of where the show is going in general. I expected some PR grandstanding from people, but thought since a lot of ire is coming from people who love this and do it for a living it warranted at least an honest look.

 

[Chadstroma]

- her trauma is turned into Reek's trauma. The scene is shot in a way that has barely anything to do with her, and all about how poor Reek is reacting to this playing out in front of him.

I think that is the point.

It is a story and I am expecting the story that they are telling will have something change with Reek. To go from refusing to leave with his sister when she attempted to save him or not doing anything when he heard Rob was killed to all of a sudden doing something.... you need an equally tramatic event to snap him out of it.

I am not sure what this event will do for Sansa as far as 'her story' but I am confident I am right in the above for Reek/Theon's story.

 

[IC FBGCav]

So were Sansa and Ramsey playing leapfrog?

 

[Chadstroma]

Also, I think people that are THAT into GoT are going to be partakers of the things that don't exist.

I find people who read any book involved with any movie will almost ALWAYS be critical of the movie in usually extreme ways. More so the more they love the books.

But then you have the politically motivated people who are just plain silly to try to take fiction and cry about it for whatever reason. I say the same of people I politically agree with when they cry about other stuff that is make believe (as long as directed to adults).

 

[El Floppo]

- her trauma is turned into Reek's trauma. The scene is shot in a way that has barely anything to do with her, and all about how poor Reek is reacting to this playing out in front of him.

I think that is the point.

It is a story and I am expecting the story that they are telling will have something change with Reek. To go from refusing to leave with his sister when she attempted to save him or not doing anything when he heard Rob was killed to all of a sudden doing something.... you need an equally tramatic event to snap him out of it.

I am not sure what this event will do for Sansa as far as 'her story' but I am confident I am right in the above for Reek/Theon's story.

IIRC, she doesn't know that she has any siblings or family left. finding out that both of her younger brothers are alive would do something for her story, I'd guess.