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Game of Thrones, tv only, books don't exist, no backstory...NERDS already ruining a series that hasn't started (3 Viewers)

belljr said:
So serious side question :

Talking about little finger and his suspicions of Jon etc.   Doesn't it help Jon that his mother is an actual Stark? I don't get why it's bad
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Sure, but the North sided with Ned and co. to help bring down Jon's pop and his family.  Not sure they would let that go too easily. 

 
I guess the concern is that Littlefinger knows something about it and is going to try to use it against Snow/Sansa......but I think it would be a bit lame for the story if in this last hour there's drama from the North over Snow's lineage.  You have undead to the North and dragons to the South....yet they'll waste time with a subplot about Jon, after proving himself over and over again, not being "Stark" enough?

Since Bran is the only one who definitely knows something about it.......better it to remain below the surface until near the end of the series when one of the two riderless dragons chooses Jon. 

 
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timschochet said:
the show's writers like to rely on history's battles for reference, and historically sea invasions are never easy. Kublai Khan sent an overwhelming force to capture Japan- 2,000 ships. The samurai beat them back. 

Of course, Kublai Khan didn't have dragons...
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It would be such a GGRM move to have Dany finally sail for Westeros, only to see her fleet destroyed by a freak typhoon.

 
I don't see the Dany/Jon marriage happening. Dany has been about rejecting the old ways the entire time, I don't see her going back to the intrafamily marriage tradition and frankly she tends to have men who worship her and that's not Snow at all. Whether they're related or not they may rule together but not as husband/wife. However the writers are clearly setting up Dany to be wed to somebody. Not too many candidates besides Jon.

 
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Has it been mentioned that the chandelier type things in the big library that Sam is now at looked exactly like the the sun rotating thing during the opening credits? Haven't had a chance to go back and look but pretty sure they were the same.

Probably just little detail but thought that was odd.

 
The General said:
Has it been mentioned that the chandelier type things in the big library that Sam is now at looked exactly like the the sun rotating thing during the opening credits? Haven't had a chance to go back and look but pretty sure they were the same.

Probably just little detail but thought that was odd.
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Yes

 
I think Jamie is going to play a much bigger role in the end game than people think.....it's not going to be all Dany, Jon, and Bran.  George Martin has a pretty obvious man crush on him and I expect him to have a significant role.

 
RUSF18 said:
So let me ask something...has Cersei actually done anything illegal?
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The litany of charges read at trial would have been fun but let's see: incest, perjury, treason, malicious prosecution, torture, conspiracy to commit murder and attempted muster, murder, and mass murder. Yeah, maybe a few things.

I'm guessing she goes Reichstag fire next and blames the sept explosion on enemies.

 
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SaintsInDome2006 said:
I don't see the Dany/Jon marriage happening. Dany has been about rejecting the old ways the entire time, I don't see her going back to the intrafamily marriage tradition and frankly she tends to have men who worship her and that's not Snow at all. Whether they're related or not they may rule together but not as husband/wife. However the writers are clearly setting up Dany to be wed to somebody. Not too many candidates besides Jon.
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If Dany is going to get married on the show of the current available candidates I think Tyrion is by far the best option. Assuming Cersei and Jamie are dead it would also enable the show to end with him rebuilding House Lannister without all the doucheyness.  

 
fruity pebbles said:
Seemed like it to me, watching it a second time. She "saved" him from actually physically killing him herself but as soon as the building exploded the Mountain left him all alone.   She knew what state of mind he'd be in and never went to see him. Without him, she assumed the power she's sought from the very beginning. 
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I can see that. Not sure I agree, but honestly, unless she says that she meant to kill him we'll never really know. I am just not sure what her reasoning for saving him would be. It would seem easier to explain an accident (she was in the red keep far away) than it would the suspicions that she pushed him out of the window. No one was in his room and now she is the queen, so I would think the rumors might be she pushed him. If he dies in the fire and she never stepped foot out of the red keep, she's sort of presumed innocent. Only Margaery even thought she was going to do something and she (I'm going to miss the pancakes) is gone.

 
stbugs said:
See my post above. He said he was a boy when he saw Rhaegar choose Lyanna over his wife, which started the war. It is a gigantic leap from not believing that Rhaegar kidnapped/raped Lyanna when he was a boy to somehow knowing about the lovechild (who his friend Catelyn didn't know existed) and then somehow think that lovechild was Jon. I honestly think that Ned never told anyone about who Jon really was. At this point, I think Bran may be the only one alive who knows.
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Rewatched that scene and I agree with you. Dont think Littlefinger knows either. I didnt even read anything into his facial expression.

 
packersfan said:
thecatch said:
I'm sure LF doesn't know, but he could certainly have his suspicions. He knew Ned well and could be as skeptical about him really having a ******* as the show watchers were. 
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Yup and plenty of people on the show have questioned the cover story in the past. Jamie has. Stannis has. Little Finger clearly seemed to question it when Sansa brought it up. I don't think he knows Jon's true parentage but he knows when Jon arrived on the scene and if he has any suspicions about what happened to Lyanna he's gonna start digging and it may not be difficult for him to piece it all together the way the book readers did (yeah I know, what books?) years ago.
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First, the show watchers were skeptical about Jon's lineage because Robert said he was amazed Ned had a ******* and Ned told Jon in season 1 that he would have a talk with him about his mother. Also, I think the book theories have been floating out there forever.

Second, everyone who has been questioning the cover story has always been talking about Rhaegar kidnapping/raping Lyanna. There has never been a single moment where those people ever even came close to linking Jon to Lyanna. That has always been an off the show rumor.

I like Littlefinger's character and how well he plays the game, but even he repeated to Sansa exactly who everyone thinks Jon is. If anyone exposes the truth, it should be Bran as he appears to be the only person who knows Jon's true identity.

 
belljr said:
So serious side question :

Talking about little finger and his suspicions of Jon etc.   Doesn't it help Jon that his mother is an actual Stark? I don't get why it's bad
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The real problem is that it not only legitimizes his claim to the North but it also makes him the presumptive heir to the Iron Throne.  By blood alone he is the perfect mix to unify the Seven Kingdoms.  While that is certainly a good thing, it could and likely will generate a lot of enemies who would rather be sitting on the Iron Throne themselves.  Cersei, Dany and Littlefinger all see themselves sitting on that throne as does Euron Greyjoy and probably a handful of others I am not remembering right now.  Which ones of them ultimately choose to oppose Jon is anyone's guess (Cersei definitely, Euron probably, Littlefinger possibly, not at all sure about Dany) but it will make Jon's life more difficult to be sure.

 
Jon does not play the Game of Thrones, he is completely ill suited for that life.  It's the reason why the audience likes him, he's the "Everyman" in that regard.

That, and he's dreamy.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
The litany of charges read at trial would have been fun but let's see: incest, perjury, treason, malicious prosecution, torture, conspiracy to commit murder and attempted muster, murder, and mass murder. Yeah, maybe a few things.

I'm guessing she goes Reichstag fire next and blames the sept explosion on enemies.
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Yeah, but still...

 
There's never been a reason to link Jon to the events in the Tower of Joy because Jon didn't carry a place of importance in the eyes of most people in Westeros before. The one person who did come across him and valued him actually questioned the cover story and Jon's parentage. But that all happened when hardly anybody was giving two chits about Jon Snow. 

That's all changed now. 

Simple math would tell anyone skeptical of the cover story about what happened there that Jon may have a place in what transpired. Isn't that how the book readers originally figured it all out? If they did surely someone like Little Finger could do it too. 

 
Did book readers really figure anything out or did they just come up with a reasonable theory that show runners ran with?

 
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The General said:
Has it been mentioned that the chandelier type things in the big library that Sam is now at looked exactly like the the sun rotating thing during the opening credits? Haven't had a chance to go back and look but pretty sure they were the same.

Probably just little detail but thought that was odd.
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Not sure if you go out to other boards and recap comments, but this is something that was going around a lot yesterday.  The implications here is that Sam is basically GGRM that is there to write the story of the 7 kingdoms and we are reading his recap after everything is all over.  

 
stbugs said:
First, the show watchers were skeptical about Jon's lineage because Robert said he was amazed Ned had a ******* and Ned told Jon in season 1 that he would have a talk with him about his mother. Also, I think the book theories have been floating out there forever.

Second, everyone who has been questioning the cover story has always been talking about Rhaegar kidnapping/raping Lyanna. There has never been a single moment where those people ever even came close to linking Jon to Lyanna. That has always been an off the show rumor.

I like Littlefinger's character and how well he plays the game, but even he repeated to Sansa exactly who everyone thinks Jon is. If anyone exposes the truth, it should be Bran as he appears to be the only person who knows Jon's true identity.
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The book gives more of a description earlier in the story...when Ned's stabbed by Jamie in Season One he has a fever dream where he describes Lyanna laying in a bed with blood and him meeting with her.  What I always thought was weird was that she was being guarded by arguably three of the greatest Kingsguard of all time.  Arthur Dayne might have been the best swordsmen ever.  It made no sense for A) Kingsguard to be guarding some pooped out Northern chick that Rheagar kidnapped and ran a train on unless she was important to him and B) the talent level of those guys guarding her might have made a difference in the battles that Rheagar was fighting. 

 
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Chaka said:
Jon does not play the Game of Thrones, he is completely ill suited for that life.  It's the reason why the audience likes him, he's the "Everyman" in that regard.

That, and he's dreamy.
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He also has great hair.

But your point is why I don't think he eventually ends up ruling. I don't think it suits him or it's what he really wants. I definitely could see him giving the North to Sansa, especially once he finds out he's not Ned's son. Every time Jon has been put in a leadership role he's taken it because it's what he assumes is expected of him. He's never done it because he wants to do it. Maybe that will change in the final two seasons but that would take for some dramatic character changes on his part for it to occur. Even when he was being serenaded as the King in the North it didn't feel like he was basking in the glow of it. Sansa seemed much happier than he was. Compare that to when it happened to Robb. He definitely was soaking it in.  

 
packersfan said:
He also has great hair.

But your point is why I don't think he eventually ends up ruling. I don't think it suits him or it's what he really wants. I definitely could see him giving the North to Sansa, especially once he finds out he's not Ned's son. Every time Jon has been put in a leadership role he's taken it because it's what he assumes is expected of him. He's never done it because he wants to do it. Maybe that will change in the final two seasons but that would take for some dramatic character changes on his part for it to occur. Even when he was being serenaded as the King in the North it didn't feel like he was basking in the glow of it. Sansa seemed much happier than he was. Compare that to when it happened to Robb. He definitely was soaking it in.  
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Being the reluctant ruler is kind of Jon's thing.  I could see him ending up on the Iron Throne, reluctantly of course, if only because the audience would know how much he doesn't want to be there giving a semi-tragic tone to his ultimate fate.

But it just seems easy to see and ending with Jon on the throne and this is a show that doesn't really do "easy" all that often.

 
Arya is going to be the fixer for the writers in the final season, whenever they need to tie up a loose end "Surprise!" :facerip: "You're dead because you don't advance the plot anymore!"

In that way she really could be ultimate Deus Ex Machina whenever the writers are in a corner.

 
Chaka said:
Being the reluctant ruler is kind of Jon's thing.  I could see him ending up on the Iron Throne, reluctantly of course, if only because the audience would know how much he doesn't want to be there giving a semi-tragic tone to his ultimate fate.

But it just seems easy to see and ending with Jon on the throne and this is a show that doesn't really do "easy" all that often.
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What's interesting is these last two episodes have really given viewers a lot of the payoffs they've long wanted. How much of that will continue? I mention that because the two easiest picks to rule Westeros at the end of the series would seem to be Dany and Jon. Those are the money plays and I think many (maybe most?) viewers are rooting for one of them to end up on top. In these last two episodes the viewers got many of the things they've long wanted. Is that how the writers plan to finish things too? Gonna be real interesting to find out.   

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
I don't see the Dany/Jon marriage happening. Dany has been about rejecting the old ways the entire time, I don't see her going back to the intrafamily marriage tradition and frankly she tends to have men who worship her and that's not Snow at all. Whether they're related or not they may rule together but not as husband/wife. However the writers are clearly setting up Dany to be wed to somebody. Not too many candidates besides Jon.
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She's rejected every man that's worshiped her.  The title is Song of Fire and Ice.  Targaryen's have been known to marry cousins.  After Dany's forced proclamation to find a new suitor I think it's painfully obvious the marriage of the Fire Queen and Ice King happens.

 
And I think Sansa's fate is sealed with little finger.  He'll be the death of her and himself.  She doesn't figure in the end.  One of the more traumatic deaths next season.

 
shadyridr said:
Did book readers really figure anything out or did they just come up with a reasonable theory that show runners ran with?
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They figured it out.

When the creators of the show talked with Martin, they told him their theory (which is the same as discussed her) and GRRM confirmed it.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
The litany of charges read at trial would have been fun but let's see: incest, perjury, treason, malicious prosecution, torture, conspiracy to commit murder and attempted muster, murder, and mass murder. Yeah, maybe a few things.

I'm guessing she goes Reichstag fire next and blames the sept explosion on enemies.
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The most serious of these obviously being the attempted muster.

 
RUSF18 said:
Watching the finale again...Lady Mormont's pronunciation of "refused the call" is amazing each time. 
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Gotta think the writers get her into more stuff than they may have planned for the final two seasons. She's ridiculously awesome. Stole every scene she was in this season, including her one-second sneer at Ramsay in the Battle of the Bastards. 

 
Holy chit.

Potential spoilers from Martin's original outline proposal to the editors for the books.  Many (if not most) plot points were changed, but this may reveal who makes it through the series. Read at your own risk.

http://www.denofgeek.com/us/tv/game-of-thrones/243542/game-of-thrones-15-things-we-learned-from-george-rr-martin-s-original-outline

http://winteriscoming.net/2015/02/05/george-rr-martin-original-game-of-thrones-pitch/

Edit - and may reveal who is going to be important in the end game.

 
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Ned and Howland Reed weren't the only two people there. You think Ned put to the sword those two women who birthed his nephew?  Somebody knew.

 
tonydead said:
And I think Sansa's fate is sealed with little finger.  He'll be the death of her and himself.  She doesn't figure in the end.  One of the more traumatic deaths next season.
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If there were odds available for final throne occupant I would put $100 on littlefinger at 50-1 or higher.  I would not count out a LF/Varys long con that's been running this entire time.

 
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