Game of Thrones, tv only, books don't exist, no backstory...NERDS already ruining a series that hasn't started (3 Viewers)

[matttyl]

Cersei's one positive to her personality is her love for her children. She would rather see her child on the throne and rule through the child than have the child die so she could rule. 

I think was true till about midway through season 6, though.  Once Tommen started making rules of his own up (no more trial by combat, new connection to the faith), she realized that she wasn't the one in power - he was.  She wasn't pulling the strings anymore - others were (Sparrow, wife).  At that point, I'm not sure the above was still true for her.  Maybe she was thinking that with those folks gone there was no one left to pull those strings, but she didn't seem to be at all torn up about her last surviving child killing himself - just bury him and I'll take the throne. 

 

[jamny]

I think was true till about midway through season 6, though.  Once Tommen started making rules of his own up (no more trial by combat, new connection to the faith), she realized that she wasn't the one in power - he was.  She wasn't pulling the strings anymore - others were (Sparrow, wife).  At that point, I'm not sure the above was still true for her.  Maybe she was thinking that with those folks gone there was no one left to pull those strings, but she didn't seem to be at all torn up about her last surviving child killing himself - just bury him and I'll take the throne. 

And you would think if she cared so much for him that she would have looked in on him after blowing up the Sept.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

After Myrcella, she just came to accept the Maggie prophecy imo.  It didn't help that he was no longer her puppet, but I think she just resigned herself to her/her kids' fate.  Didn't mean she was just going to blow him up, though, either.

 

[Buckna]

Since you referenced the book reader in you...

Spoiler

He did, but in the books he indicates his name is Brynden, and he only has one eye.  Both of which would align with Brynden Rivers, who was a Lord Commander of the Watch and a Targ ******* who disappeared (on a ranging iirc).  He wouldn't be nearly that old.

Could be metaphorical.  In the course of 20 or so years he could have easily witnessed a thousand years of Westerosi history.

All of which leaves one to wonder why he or Leaf wouldn't immediately share with them the most important thing they'd need to know in the war to come. 

The books, however, also drop a few hints that perhaps Mel and the Raven/Bran are not aligned.  That they, in fact, would be the opposition to the Lord of Light. Which I don't think we'll see play out in the show, as they've clearly put the Night King in that role. 

Yeah, didn't want to get into all that since this is the tv only thread  Seems to be another departure from those things that shall not be named.

 

[Buckna]

In the commentary for Winds of Winter, they said the following about Tommen's demise. I think it speaks to Cersei's fatal failing which is her pride, she'd rather drink wine and revel in her victory of the Sept blowing up taking a lot of her enemies with it, that she never thinks what it might do to her child:

"Weiss also noted about the death of King Tommen Baratheon, "Meanwhile, while the explosion is happening, Tommen is alone. This fragile, malleable, devastated child, basically, is sitting there without anybody to comfort him, and if she had been there, he wouldn't have gone out that window. She failed him, and she alone failed him here."[6] Benioff continued about portraying the mindset of Cersei Lannister, saying "I think the idea of Cersei without her children is a pretty terrifying prospect. It was the one thing that really humanized her, you know, her love for her kids. And as much of a monster as she could sometimes be, she was a mother who truly really did love her children, and now those children are gone, and all she's got is power."

 

[matttyl]

Actually the Mountain is standing behind Tommen when the explosion happens.  After the explosion, he turns and walks away leaving Tommen alone.

 

[Buckna]

Actually the Mountain is standing behind Tommen when the explosion happens.  After the explosion, he turns and walks away leaving Tommen alone.

Not sure you get my point, she sends the Frankenmountin to keep him from leaving and going to the Sept because he was supposed to be at the trial. Frankenmountain is not going to be doing much consoling of the feelings of the child king.

 

[matttyl]

Not sure you get my point, she sends the Frankenmountin to keep him from leaving and going to the Sept because he was supposed to be at the trial. Frankenmountain is not going to be doing much consoling of the feelings of the child king.

Oh I know.  Just saying that he wasn't alone when the explosion was happening.  I imagine the Mountain was there to keep him from leaving and being at the Sept when it blew because Cersei told him to be there.  She thought enough to make sure he wasn't blow up, but didn't think about what Tommen would do once it did blow.

 

[Spin]

Oh I know.  Just saying that he wasn't alone when the explosion was happening.  I imagine the Mountain was there to keep him from leaving and being at the Sept when it blew because Cersei told him to be there.  She thought enough to make sure he wasn't blow up, but didn't think about what Tommen would do once it did blow.

It's kind of tragic, too.  Tommen, who was actually a good kid, never got to make his own decisions, he was always a puppet and pawn for other people.  Choosing to jump out of the window was kind of his first choice he got to make for himself.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Of the many crucial-to-the-plot scenes in that final episode, when explosions are going off in King's Landing, we see Granny in Dorne meeting Ellaria Sand and Varys. Ellaria seems to have assumed de-facto control of Dorne, and it appears likely both Dorne and Highgarden will join forces with Dany the Targ.

"will join forces"?  Didn't they already join forces?  Can't stream it right now to double check but aren't some of the ships in Dany's fleet in the final scene of WInds of Winter donning the Dorne and Highgarden insignias?

 

[gump]

I'd like to see Gendry end the show climbing out of a pine tree.

 

[Mile High]

"will join forces"?  Didn't they already join forces?  Can't stream it right now to double check but aren't some of the ships in Dany's fleet in the final scene of WInds of Winter donning the Dorne and Highgarden insignias?

Yes.

 

[Chadstroma]

"will join forces"?  Didn't they already join forces?  Can't stream it right now to double check but aren't some of the ships in Dany's fleet in the final scene of WInds of Winter donning the Dorne and Highgarden insignias?

Yes. Dorne and Highgarden were along with Dany. Before the ships sails towards the end of the season, they showed a quick scene of Varys meeting with the Queen of Thorns and Ellaria. It was part of the whole "Varys can teleport" yapping. 

 

[rodg12]

Actually the Mountain is standing behind Tommen when the explosion happens.  After the explosion, he turns and walks away leaving Tommen alone.

I just watched this last night.  One of Tommen's aides is with him in the room after the Mountain leaves.  Once the aide leaves too is when he makes the jump.

 

[Chadstroma]

http://www.businessinsider.com/who-has-the-rightful-claim-to-the-iron-throne-after-the-game-of-thrones-finale-2016-6

Meanwhile you've got a ******* — a secret Targaryen *******, no less — proclaimed as the King in the North. Jon Snow's an interesting case, as even though he's the son of a Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen, who was himself the heir to the Mad King before Robert's rebellion. Jon, however, is still a *******, and thus not eligible for the Iron Throne. Doesn't seem to be stopping the Northerners from coronating him, much to Sansa's chagrin. Bran is still alive too, but it seems doubtful that he'll rule Winterfell as is his right.

My guess is that there is some sort of secret wedding that took place. Still problematic being that Rhaegar was married already but maybe there is a Westeros quick file divorce court?

 

[rodg12]

Cersei's one positive to her personality is her love for her children. She would rather see her child on the throne and rule through the child than have the child die so she could rule. 

WAS.  She clearly had no feelings for Tommen when she offed his wife whom he truly loved.

 

[SoCalBroncoFan]

My guess is that there is some sort of secret wedding that took place. Still problematic being that Rhaegar was married already but maybe there is a Westeros quick file divorce court?

This brings up a question I was curious about. Sanda married Ramsey Boktom, right? But wasn't she already married to Tyrion, making her marriage to Ramsey invalid? So technically, Tyrion and Sansa are still married, making him the legitimate Warden of the North. 

 

[Buckychudd]

The more I read this, the more I like it. I don't know if it would jibe as an ending to the show(seeing as they're so late in the game)....but it would be a perfectly acceptable ending to the books. 

Yeah when I first read it I was convinced it was correct. It fits so well with the broader story. That's why I said read at your own risk. 

 

[bostonfred]

Too old

 

[stbugs]

Watching season 3 now with Arya and the Hound together and it's pretty funny how he saved both Stark girls. He's still one of my favorite characters. Also, forgot that Daario changed actors from season 3 and season 4.

 

[packersfan]

WAS.  She clearly had no feelings for Tommen when she offed his wife whom he truly loved.

Disagree. Cersei's motivation was revenge but she did not want Tommen to die. She hated Margery from Day 1 so killing Tommen's wife meant nothing to her. The great aspect of Cersei as a character is she's always been evil and manipulative but she was those things despite loving her children. With all her children gone she has nothing grounding her to humanity of any kind anymore. Not even Jamie. 

 

[rodg12]

Disagree. Cersei's motivation was revenge but she did not want Tommen to die. She hated Margery from Day 1 so killing Tommen's wife meant nothing to her. The great aspect of Cersei as a character is she's always been evil and manipulative but she was those things despite loving her children. With all her children gone she has nothing grounding her to humanity of any kind anymore. Not even Jamie. 

At one point she loved Tommen, but not when she offed Margarey.  No way she loved him then.  He had basically just sentenced her to death.

I could buy the loved her children angle until she offed Margarey.  Doing that transitioned her completely to selfish, manipulative ##### with no remorse or feelings.  Especially since she was so stupid to empower the High Sparrow in the first place.

 

[packersfan]

At one point she loved Tommen, but not when she offed Margarey.  No way she loved him then.  He had basically just sentenced her to death.

I could buy the loved her children angle until she offed Margarey.  Doing that transitioned her completely to selfish, manipulative ##### with no remorse or feelings.  Especially since she was so stupid to empower the High Sparrow in the first place.

Why would Margarey matter at all? Cersei hated her from the moment she arrived. She never wanted her to be Queen and loathed the fact Tommen loved her. Killing Margarey in no way excludes her from still loving Tommen. Tommen died because Cersei's desire for revenge was her strongest motivation not because Cersei no longer loved him.

 

[rodg12]

Why would Margarey matter at all? Cersei hated her from the moment she arrived. She never wanted her to be Queen and loathed the fact Tommen loved her. Killing Margarey in no way excludes her from still loving Tommen. Tommen died because Cersei's desire for revenge was her strongest motivation not because Cersei no longer loved him.

You can't kill the woman your son loves while still loving your son.  No matter your selfish, petty reason.  Doesn't add up.

ETA:  Also the ##### didn't even go visit him after the explosion.

 

[packersfan]

You can't kill the woman your son loves while still loving your son.  No matter your selfish, petty reason.  Doesn't add up.

Seriously? Have you not met Cersei Lannister before? The only people on the planet she loved were her children and Jamie. That's it. 

 

[rodg12]

Seriously? Have you not met Cersei Lannister before? The only people on the planet she loved were her children and Jamie. That's it. 

Herself.  She loves herself most of all.  I could buy this conflicted loving her children narrative until she killed the wife of the son that had just sentenced her to visit the Sparrow and took away her trial by combat option.  At that point, I don't think she gave a rat's ### about Tommen.  She was only looking out for herself.  She didn't love him.  She didn't even visit him after the explosion.  You supposedly love your son, just offed his wife and don't visit him.  BS.  SHAME!

And no I haven't met her.

 

[matttyl]

You can't kill the woman your son loves while still loving your son.  No matter your selfish, petty reason.  Doesn't add up.

ETA:  Also the ##### didn't even go visit him after the explosion.

I'm going to disagree with that statement.  Put it in today's world's context - the woman is a meth pusher, but your son loves her.  You off her to save his life. 

 

[rodg12]

I'm going to disagree with that statement.  Put it in today's world's context - the woman is a meth pusher, but your son loves her.  You off her to save his life. 

True.  Margaery was no meth pusher, though.  No greater good for Tommen was achieved by killing her.

 

[matttyl]

True.  Margaery was no meth pusher, though.  No greater good for Tommen was achieved by killing her.

She was apparently embracing the faith (even if only faking it).  The faith, to Cersei, was the meth. 

 

[Ilov80s]

Cersei is the best mom. Her kid was like 14 and had made some bad decisions. Any mom worth her salt would have stepped in and helped their kid. 

 

[Ilov80s]

I just watched this last night.  One of Tommen's aides is with him in the room after the Mountain leaves.  Once the aide leaves too is when he makes the jump.

It isn't Cersei's fault that the show isn't as well written as it used to be. 

 

[El Floppo]

You can't kill the woman your son loves while still loving your son.  No matter your selfish, petty reason.  Doesn't add up.

Seriously? Have you not met Cersei Lannister before? The only people on the planet she loved were her children and Jamie. That's it. 

  agree completely with packersfan and disagree with rodg on this argument. 

the only problem I had with how it all went down was how oblivious she was to what his response might be to losing his wife and new spiritual advisor. but killing them doesn't diminish her love her son... if anything, given her character- she's probably thinking she's ultimately liberating him from their conniving, self-serving agendas.

 

[rodg12]

I guess I can see how she might convince herself that she still loved him, but I don't see her actions as actually loving him.  Especially when she didn't go to visit him.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Myrcella died.

Cersei decided her kids were going to die and then she was.  So WTF.

Tommen betrayed her in the name of the faith. 

She decided to get rid of her enemies and the negative influences on him in one fell swoop.

She did make certain he wouldn't be there, so she obviously didn't want him dead.  But she did make a self-centered decision despite the fact that it would negatively impact someone she loved.  People do THAT all the time.  She was probably hopeful no longer getting ### on the regular would stop clouding his judgment.

Gravity

 

[Ilov80s]

  agree completely with packersfan and disagree with rodg on this argument. 

the only problem I had with how it all went down was how oblivious she was to what his response might be to losing his wife and new spiritual advisor. but killing them doesn't diminish her love her son... if anything, given her character- she's probably thinking she's ultimately liberating him from their conniving, self-serving agendas.

Don't forget, Cerse wasn't just saving her son. She was also teaching him a lesson/punishing him for not listening to his mother. 

 

[packersfan]

I guess I can see how she might convince herself that she still loved him, but I don't see her actions as actually loving him.  Especially when she didn't go to visit him.

She didn't go to visit him because all she cared about in that moment was revenge (The Mountain leaving Tommen was part of this plan). That was her primary motivation and she wanted to revel in her victory. 

And that desire for revenge and the desire to bath in her moment of victory left her son alone where he ended up killing himself. So Cersei's thirst for revenge resulted in one of the two people left in the world that she loved dying. 

 

[El Floppo]

Don't forget, Cerse wasn't just saving her son. She was also teaching him a lesson/punishing him for not listening to his mother. 

I can see that... a little.

primarily, she's saving herself and the lannister name, IMO. 

 

[Ilov80s]

I can see that... a little.

primarily, she's saving herself and the lannister name, IMO. 

Yes, but also sending a message to her son about who is really in charge. She loves him but also imagine how furious she is with him. He betrayed her and the family for the first piece of ##### that got his d wet. 

 

[El Floppo]

Yes, but also sending a message to her son about who is really in charge. She loves him but also imagine how furious she is with him. He betrayed her and the family for the first piece of ##### that got his d wet. 

like I said- I can see that.

I still think she's foremost thinking about preserving herself and the lannister name from the direction he's taking them (by being manipulated by marge and sparrow). 

 

[Ilov80s]

like I said- I can see that.

I still think she's foremost thinking about preserving herself and the lannister name from the direction he's taking them (by being manipulated by marge and sparrow). 

I am just trying to explain why she leaves Tommen all alone during this. That or she 's just totally ashamed of herself and can't face him

 

[Spin]

This brings up a question I was curious about. Sanda married Ramsey Boktom, right? But wasn't she already married to Tyrion, making her marriage to Ramsey invalid? So technically, Tyrion and Sansa are still married, making him the legitimate Warden of the North. 

They never consummated the marriage, so it's essentially annulled.

 

[Spin]

I am just trying to explain why she leaves Tommen all alone during this. That or she 's just totally ashamed of herself and can't face him

She smiled while watching, she's not ashamed. Once Marcella died, she pretty much accepted that the prophecy was happening one way or another.  In her mind, Tommen was already essentially dead.

 

[El Floppo]

I am just trying to explain why she leaves Tommen all alone during this. That or she 's just totally ashamed of herself and can't face him

ah- missed your point. yeah. I think it's more of allowing herself to completely revel in the moment- which she couldn't do if she was with tommen (would have to pretend to console him).

 

[Ilov80s]

She smiled while watching, she's not ashamed. Once Marcella died, she pretty much accepted that the prophecy was happening one way or another.  In her mind, Tommen was already essentially dead.

I agree, I am just throwing out thoughts to explain the sequence. It's too bad all her kids sucked. Marcella had no personality at all, Joffrey was a monster, Tommen was a naive nerd. I wish she had a kid that could have become the next Cersei or Jaime. 

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Yes, but also sending a message to her son about who is really in charge. She loves him but also imagine how furious she is with him. He betrayed her and the family for the first piece of ##### that got his d wet.

Tommen is to Cersei as Fredo was to Michael. 

 

[El Floppo]

This brings up a question I was curious about. Sanda married Ramsey Boktom, right? But wasn't she already married to Tyrion, making her marriage to Ramsey invalid? So technically, Tyrion and Sansa are still married, making him the legitimate Warden of the North. 

They never consummated the marriage, so it's essentially annulled.

aside from tyrion's whore gf (and I can't remember- was she killed, or just sent away... if the latter, maybe she comes back?), was there anybody else that knew they hadn't schtupped?

 

[Bob Sacamano]

I agree, I am just throwing out thoughts to explain the sequence. It's too bad all her kids sucked. Marcella had no personality at all, Joffrey was a monster, Tommen was a naive nerd. I wish she had a kid that could have become the next Cersei or Jaime. 

She'd have to have two more, then.

 

[El Floppo]

Tommen is to Cersei as Fredo was to Michael. 

aren't you thinking gendry?

or am I being to literal with boat?

 

[Bob Sacamano]

aside from tyrion's whore gf (and I can't remember- was she killed, or just sent away... if the latter, maybe she comes back?), was there anybody else that knew they hadn't schtupped?

Spoiler

Tyrion strangled her to death when he killed Tywin.

 

[Spin]

aside from tyrion's whore gf (and I can't remember- was she killed, or just sent away... if the latter, maybe she comes back?), was there anybody else that knew they hadn't schtupped?

Putting this in spoilers since there is someone who might not be there that follows this, right?

Spoiler

Tyrion killed Shae right before he killed Tywinn. And it was pretty well known they never consumatted.