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Game of Thrones, tv only, books don't exist, no backstory...NERDS already ruining a series that hasn't started (8 Viewers)

White walkers aren't getting past Winterfell.  There is now enough Valeryn there to make a stand.

Arya and her new dagger are the end game for the Night King.  You get touched by the whites and you are done, Arya is by far the most "untouchable" combatant left, everyone else is a tank.  The end of the white walkers is setting up to be possibly extremely anticlimactic after 7 seasons of build up.  I'm sure it will look spectacular when they overwhelm the wall though.

Don't see how the series ends without some sort of time travel hoopla with the three eyed raven.  Has the tale of Ice and Fire already been written?  or did Bran create their history to prepare for this very battle?

Danny burning the soldiers and food supply leads me to believe she has a lesson to be taught and she is starting to become what she originally fought against very easily could go "mad", evil will be destroyed so it rules out Cersei, Jon Snow is already dead, Jamie is broken.

That leaves Tyrion, Littlefinger, or the Baratheon blacksmith kid as the ruler of the iron throne when all is said and done.

 
Jon Snow and Beric Dondarrion both seem to be living only to fulfull a task.

Could that interaction be the real tale of Ice and Fire?  Beric does have a flaming sword.

 
KarmaPolice said:
I think some of the disconnect is that I would say that the people criticizing the pace also think the the one on one scenes and characters are/were the fun stuff.  I didn't start watching GoT for the epic battles and dragons.  It would have been a disappointing show if that was the case. 

I am pretty sure that nobody wants endless training montages and Ramsey torture scenes, but I think the complaints mostly stem from people loving the show and not understanding what the damn rush is to wrap this thing up is - most would be perfectly happy with another 5 seasons.  Sure there have always been some timing and Varys geography issues, but IMO there just feels like more and more of "let's do A, B, and C" because we need to get to D by episode 5 and nevermind if it makes sense in this world.  It feels like a slightly different show is all. 
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This is not a specific criticism of your point, but I feel like the conversations people are having now are the same ones we had during the split final season of Breaking Bad. Do people feel concerns about the pacing being off because it's really off, or because they know the endgame is drawing near and they want to see more of their favorite stuff and less of the things they don't like as much? I think it becomes very hard at this point to wall off the fact that we have fewer than 20 hours of story to unfold and that changes the way people react to particular scenes.

 
KarmaPolice said:
I think some of the disconnect is that I would say that the people criticizing the pace also think the the one on one scenes and characters are/were the fun stuff.  I didn't start watching GoT for the epic battles and dragons.  It would have been a disappointing show if that was the case. 

I am pretty sure that nobody wants endless training montages and Ramsey torture scenes, but I think the complaints mostly stem from people loving the show and not understanding what the damn rush is to wrap this thing up is - most would be perfectly happy with another 5 seasons.  Sure there have always been some timing and Varys geography issues, but IMO there just feels like more and more of "let's do A, B, and C" because we need to get to D by episode 5 and nevermind if it makes sense in this world.  It feels like a slightly different show is all. 
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Ultimately the show just has too high of a budget to invest in a story line different then print.  At this point they need to connect all the dots and move on, they can't risk losing any value on their set pieces they know they have, especially with the amount of both young and old actors they have.  Besides the special effects editor that was eaten by lion (no joke) they have been very fortunate to keep their main cast in good health and shape.

Anyone remember Rome?  When they knew it was a done deal after Season 2 time started moving 10x....feels very similar to what's happening here.

 
Hot Diggity Dog said:
No one knows the secret of making it any more and only a few smiths in the world can work with it. 
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If only one of them had one of Robert's bastards as an apprentice (I know. He didn't reform Ice in the series, but that doesn't mean he was incapable of it).

Also possible Gendry rowed to Essos to learn to become Someone from the Bladeless Men.

 
hooter311 said:
White walkers aren't getting past Winterfell.  There is now enough Valeryn there to make a stand.

Arya and her new dagger are the end game for the Night King.  You get touched by the whites and you are done, Arya is by far the most "untouchable" combatant left, everyone else is a tank.  The end of the white walkers is setting up to be possibly extremely anticlimactic after 7 seasons of build up.  I'm sure it will look spectacular when they overwhelm the wall though.

Don't see how the series ends without some sort of time travel hoopla with the three eyed raven.  Has the tale of Ice and Fire already been written?  or did Bran create their history to prepare for this very battle?

Danny burning the soldiers and food supply leads me to believe she has a lesson to be taught and she is starting to become what she originally fought against very easily could go "mad", evil will be destroyed so it rules out Cersei, Jon Snow is already dead, Jamie is broken.

That leaves Tyrion, Littlefinger, or the Baratheon blacksmith kid as the ruler of the iron throne when all is said and done.
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 Other than killing Hodor, Arya doesn't have any real beef with the White Walkers, at least yet. Other than reuniting with her family, her destiny lies south. I don't think she has any altruistic bent, and her survival and training have all had just one purpose - revenge.

i think it would be silly for the writers to throw all that away and chuck her at the Night King. I think that the dagger is more likely to wind up in somebody on her list.

I also think she made the wrong choice when she met the wolves and turned North. Trying  to reclaim her family bonds is going to cost her. Nymeria clearly wanted to go chomp on some more Lannisters. It would be awesome if she ends up taking Jaime's other hand.

 
modogg said:
i am utterly amazed at what people complain about this show. What would happen if they took the 10 or so episodes they have left in the entire series and spent them showing us how Dothraki got there, or how Theon's uncle made all those ships and found them? Yes, please less Drogon and more watching people travel

honestly feels like we don't deserve anything good like this series. there were 80 good things in the episode and maybe 2 bad things, so we spend 90% of the time discussing those 2 things
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Its surprising to me how offended some are at a discussion of a plot hole or apparent mistake in the story. For me it's interesting to discuss things that don't add up and get different takes. It wouldn't take an hour to explain how her army got from A to B, just a line or two of dialogue. Looking at a map, of course it makes no sense, so I've no problem with someone pointing it out for discussion.

It didn't bother me last night though, because it's become commonplace in this show for armies to simply appear where/when needed. With the Iron Bank so involved in the story these past two episodes, I won't be surprised when the Golden Company comes out of nowhere, charging in to battle to save the day for Cercei just when it looks like she's finished. 

 
As regards the army's movements, I think we need to remember that time has been warped here. By that I mean that weeks can (and occasionally do) pass between scenes without much indication from the show.

Per Tarly, the gold was delivered to King's Landing, yet earlier in the episode Cersie said it was two weeks out. Dragonstone isn't that far from King's Landing...perhaps the wagon train was merely a day or so from King's Landing and thus the Dothraki horde (MOUNTED!) didn't travel nearly as far as suggested here.

And that's another thing...the Dothraki are cavalry traveling by horse without huge trains of supplies behind them, not foot soldiers lugging tons of gear. They should be able to travel much further/faster than the typical Westerosi army.

In the end, I don't think the time/space crunch was nearly as bad in this case as it has been in other cases (such as the Eunach traveling halfway across the globe and back in one episode).

 
hooter311 said:
Danny burning the soldiers and food supply leads me to believe she has a lesson to be taught and she is starting to become what she originally fought against very easily could go "mad", evil will be destroyed so it rules out Cersei, Jon Snow is already dead, Jamie is broken.
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Strange point and a stretch.

It's war. Enemy soldiers in the field and their provisions are the most legitimate military targets that exist.

 
hooter311 said:
Ultimately the show just has too high of a budget to invest in a story line different then print.  At this point they need to connect all the dots and move on, they can't risk losing any value on their set pieces they know they have, especially with the amount of both young and old actors they have.  Besides the special effects editor that was eaten by lion (no joke) they have been very fortunate to keep their main cast in good health and shape.

Anyone remember Rome?  When they knew it was a done deal after Season 2 time started moving 10x....feels very similar to what's happening here.
Click to expand...
All fair points, but I don't think budget is much of an issue, but I could be wrong.  Just find it hard to think they couldn't find money for a show this popular, especially when they are already supposedly planning other offshoots within this universe. 

I stated a couple weeks ago in relation to the difference in writing, but it applies here too - I think it just boils down to the fact that the showrunners signed up to do an adaptation of a book series.  Once they ran out of that material, they are basically writing the series and that's not what this started off as.  So yeah, I think it's at the point where it's just "let's wrap it up and get to other projects". 

 
hooter311 said:
White walkers aren't getting past Winterfell.  There is now enough Valeryn there to make a stand.

Arya and her new dagger are the end game for the Night King.  You get touched by the whites and you are done, Arya is by far the most "untouchable" combatant left, everyone else is a tank.  The end of the white walkers is setting up to be possibly extremely anticlimactic after 7 seasons of build up.  I'm sure it will look spectacular when they overwhelm the wall though.

Don't see how the series ends without some sort of time travel hoopla with the three eyed raven.  Has the tale of Ice and Fire already been written?  or did Bran create their history to prepare for this very battle?
Click to expand...
Man, I hope not about the time travel hoopla, but I could see it.

I think the majority of people think that Sam is the stand in for Martin in this story.  Combining that with the little side comment that Sam had about the title of the Maester's book, I could very well see this ending with Sam surviving this war and long winter and writing the book about it's history --- The Song of Ice and Fire. 

 
Rustoleum said:
 Other than killing Hodor, Arya doesn't have any real beef with the White Walkers, at least yet. Other than reuniting with her family, her destiny lies south. I don't think she has any altruistic bent, and her survival and training have all had just one purpose - revenge.

i think it would be silly for the writers to throw all that away and chuck her at the Night King. I think that the dagger is more likely to wind up in somebody on her list.

I also think she made the wrong choice when she met the wolves and turned North. Trying  to reclaim her family bonds is going to cost her. Nymeria clearly wanted to go chomp on some more Lannisters. It would be awesome if she ends up taking Jaime's other hand.
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I think it would be an odd 180 if it turns into Arya vs. Night King instead of Jon vs. Night King like they seem to be setting up. 

 
KarmaPolice said:
All fair points, but I don't think budget is much of an issue, but I could be wrong.  Just find it hard to think they couldn't find money for a show this popular, especially when they are already supposedly planning other offshoots within this universe. 

I stated a couple weeks ago in relation to the difference in writing, but it applies here too - I think it just boils down to the fact that the showrunners signed up to do an adaptation of a book series.  Once they ran out of that material, they are basically writing the series and that's not what this started off as.  So yeah, I think it's at the point where it's just "let's wrap it up and get to other projects". 
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Cord cutting has to be hurting them.  

 
Interesting thing from the wiki link posted earlier about the known Valyrian steel swords:

It notes that the Targaryan ancestral Valyrian steel sword was last known to be in possession of a Targaryan-offshoot ******* who formed...the Golden Company (the mercenaries the Iron Bank guy mentioned). Like 100 years before this present day.

I'm 98% sure it won't pop up in the show but it's interesting backstory. 

Also, it says that while they're rare and impossible to forge from scratch, that there are hundreds in Westoros. Makes it even stranger that Tywin was never able to acquire one, with that many floating around so many noble houses. In the show it definitely seems like there are WAY less than that floating around. 

 
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ConnSKINS26 said:
Also, it says that while they're rare and impossible to forge from scratch, that there are hundreds in Westoros. Makes it even stranger that Tywin was never able to acquire one, with that many floating around so many noble houses. In the show it definitely seems like there are WAY less than that floating around. 
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That's because they're literally priceless.  Even with all his gold, Tywin never would've been able to convince a lord to sell one.  One was more likely to sell his castle than his Valerian steel sword.  It's why Jeor's gift to Jon is amazing.  Unheard of even.  The show didn't play this out well enough.

 
Hov34 said:
Easy to say with half the Lannister Army on fire.
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In season 1, King Robert says...  "Only a fool would meet the Dothraki in an open field"

King Robert

Without cavalry of your own, there's no real way to stand against a cavalry charge.  There's only a few battles in history where an army without a cavalry beat an army with cavalry and in those, they outnumbered the cavalry heavily.  When that cavalry outnumbers your entire army, it's impossible.  Ever seen the charge of the Rohirrim in Lord of the Rings.  A Dothraki charge without Drogon would play out pretty much the same against infantry.

Robert knew that.  For how terrible of a king he was, he was an excellent battle commander.  Jaime should've known it too, but chose to try and take a stand instead of running to cross the river with his army.  It was a mistake even without the dragon.

 
encaitar said:
That's because they're literally priceless.  Even with all his gold, Tywin never would've been able to convince a lord to sell one.  One was more likely to sell his castle than his Valerian steel sword.  It's why Jeor's gift to Jon is amazing.  Unheard of even.  The show didn't play this out well enough.
Click to expand...


I get that, and I think it comes across quite well in the show, considering how few Valyrian steel weapons we ever see. 

What I'm saying is the wiki says there's actually hundreds of them out there, just in Westeros--since the show doesn't really paint the picture that there are hundreds of noble houses worthy of having a Valyrian steel weapon, I found that surprising. I realise it's still rare, but hundreds is still more than the dozens or less I assumed existed based on the show. It makes sense that they'd stay put through most of Tywin's life, as things were pretty stable before Robert's Rebellion...but you'd think with war all across the continent and houses dying out left and right now that the swords would be changing hands now, making their way into the hands of more powerful people, but we don't hear about any.

 
cashman88 said:
I don't think they would have hammered the point that it was made of Valerian steel if it wasn't meant for battle with a White Walker.
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you could be right.  I took it as them highlighting what an expensive/sharp weapon it was in a call back to the discussion about the blade when the assassin tried to off Bran in S1, so we remember it could be traced back to LF. 

 
encaitar said:
Robert knew that.  For how terrible of a king he was, he was an excellent battle commander.  Jaime should've known it too, but chose to try and take a stand instead of running to cross the river with his army.  It was a mistake even without the dragon.
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Like Tywin always said, Jaime is a slow learner.

 
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KarmaPolice said:
you could be right.  I took it as them highlighting what an expensive/sharp weapon it was in a call back to the discussion about the blade when the assassin tried to off Bran in S1, so we remember it could be traced back to LF. 
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That was my take too.

But now that that is out of the way, we may still see both happen- Arya take out a Whitewalkers on her way to KL.

 
A dagger is a short range weapon. No way you fight walkers with it especially when they are in a hoard. One way is if someone turned into a white walker and you're standing next to them... boom, easy kill. But, you don't go into a battle with a dagger against a hoard of walkers. An assassin doesn't go into battle against a hoard of anything. Arya is going to King's Landing.

 
bentley said:
This is not a specific criticism of your point, but I feel like the conversations people are having now are the same ones we had during the split final season of Breaking Bad. Do people feel concerns about the pacing being off because it's really off, or because they know the endgame is drawing near and they want to see more of their favorite stuff and less of the things they don't like as much? I think it becomes very hard at this point to wall off the fact that we have fewer than 20 hours of story to unfold and that changes the way people react to particular scenes.
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This is it. 

Guards at Winterfell.  In the six previous seasons, I wouldn't have minded (and probably liked) bit roles getting a moment....now, I'm just complaining that they're running out the clock.

It's almost impossible to do in todays world.....but I really wish shows would be able to end without you knowing they're ending.

 
Thunderlips said:
This is it. 

Guards at Winterfell.  In the six previous seasons, I wouldn't have minded (and probably liked) bit roles getting a moment....now, I'm just complaining that they're running out the clock.

It's almost impossible to do in todays world.....but I really wish shows would be able to end without you knowing they're ending.
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Meh - throw away scene to tie Arya's character back to when she was a little girl and went through the exact same exercise with the guards as Kings Landing.  She has come full circle.

 
Sinn Fein said:
Meh - throw away scene to tie Arya's character back to when she was a little girl and went through the exact same exercise with the guards as Kings Landing.  She has come full circle.
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Sure, but people can't remember main characters' names.  How many are remembering this random call back to Arya trying to get back into KL in S1?

 
KarmaPolice said:
Sure, but people can't remember main characters' names.  How many are remembering this random call back to Arya trying to get back into KL in S1?
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I remember the Mexican looking guy in season one (looked like #### n boots) training Arya when she was a young girl. No idea what his name was though.

 
Sinn Fein said:
Meh - throw away scene to tie Arya's character back to when she was a little girl and went through the exact same exercise with the guards as Kings Landing.  She has come full circle.
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I get part of that....but they lingered too long for my liking.  They were like Abbott and Costello up there.  

 
But yeah, I think that's what makes some people love this show or just be "meh" about it....way too many characters and storylines that really don't mean a damn.

 
eoMMan said:
But yeah, I think that's what makes some people love this show or just be "meh" about it....way too many characters and storylines that really don't mean a damn.
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It's also why some people nerd out completely...character arcs coming full circle years later :shrug:

The show appeals to casual and hardcore fans

 
ConnSKINS26 said:
I get that, and I think it comes across quite well in the show, considering how few Valyrian steel weapons we ever see. 

What I'm saying is the wiki says there's actually hundreds of them out there, just in Westeros--since the show doesn't really paint the picture that there are hundreds of noble houses worthy of having a Valyrian steel weapon, I found that surprising. I realise it's still rare, but hundreds is still more than the dozens or less I assumed existed based on the show. It makes sense that they'd stay put through most of Tywin's life, as things were pretty stable before Robert's Rebellion...but you'd think with war all across the continent and houses dying out left and right now that the swords would be changing hands now, making their way into the hands of more powerful people, but we don't hear about any.
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The show falls way short on a lot of the flavor stuff.  Also tons of plot holes.  Don't get too caught up.  

 
Thunderlips said:
I get part of that....but they lingered too long for my liking.  They were like Abbott and Costello up there.  
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I get what you are saying here.  What tend to do now, especially knowing the ticking clock, is saying stuff like "We haven't seen The Hound for a couple weeks, but we get a few minutes with these two ####### guards?".  Like you said, the ticking clock is a big factor and I am greedy and want all the time we can get with characters I love. 

 
hooter311 said:
White walkers aren't getting past Winterfell.  There is now enough Valeryn there to make a stand.

Arya and her new dagger are the end game for the Night King.  You get touched by the whites and you are done, Arya is by far the most "untouchable" combatant left, everyone else is a tank.  The end of the white walkers is setting up to be possibly extremely anticlimactic after 7 seasons of build up.  I'm sure it will look spectacular when they overwhelm the wall though.

Don't see how the series ends without some sort of time travel hoopla with the three eyed raven.  Has the tale of Ice and Fire already been written?  or did Bran create their history to prepare for this very battle?

Danny burning the soldiers and food supply leads me to believe she has a lesson to be taught and she is starting to become what she originally fought against very easily could go "mad", evil will be destroyed so it rules out Cersei, Jon Snow is already dead, Jamie is broken.

That leaves Tyrion, Littlefinger, or the Baratheon blacksmith kid as the ruler of the iron throne when all is said and done.
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Potential Spoiler / Theory Alert: 

Bran Wargs into the Ice Dragon during the battle and helps nuke the white walkers from the inside. 
 
kentric said:
Interesting thought concerning immunity.  How about Rob's heritage is found out when he is engulfed in flames but walks away from it unharmed?
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Ties to his Targaryan side.. hence danys relations. Plus he has the ring of Mordor. 

 
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Thunderlips said:
I get part of that....but they lingered too long for my liking.  They were like Abbott and Costello up there.  
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I'm guessing that lingering shot had more to do with foreshadowing a little finger scheme than it did Sansa. With Bran's comment to him and Aryas arrival, he is in complete survival mode. He has to try and create conflict between the sisters AND find a way to silence Bran. 

Odds are NOT in his favor. 

 
encaitar said:
In season 1, King Robert says...  "Only a fool would meet the Dothraki in an open field"

King Robert

Without cavalry of your own, there's no real way to stand against a cavalry charge.  There's only a few battles in history where an army without a cavalry beat an army with cavalry and in those, they outnumbered the cavalry heavily.  When that cavalry outnumbers your entire army, it's impossible.  Ever seen the charge of the Rohirrim in Lord of the Rings.  A Dothraki charge without Drogon would play out pretty much the same against infantry.

Robert knew that.  For how terrible of a king he was, he was an excellent battle commander.  Jaime should've known it too, but chose to try and take a stand instead of running to cross the river with his army.  It was a mistake even without the dragon.
Click to expand...
You don't cross that river. His army would get two feet in and then they'd all drop 50 feet down and drown.  

 
hooter311 said:
White walkers aren't getting past Winterfell.  There is now enough Valeryn there to make a stand.

Arya and her new dagger are the end game for the Night King.  You get touched by the whites and you are done, Arya is by far the most "untouchable" combatant left, everyone else is a tank.  The end of the white walkers is setting up to be possibly extremely anticlimactic after 7 seasons of build up.  I'm sure it will look spectacular when they overwhelm the wall though.
Click to expand...
That's asking a bit much of Arya.  Considering the Night King lost 100s of his fighters from jumping off a cliff I doubt he'd have a problem sacrificing another 100 to smother Arya.

As to Arya going North vs. South, I can easily see her putting off her revenge to be bodyguard to Jon. 

 
encaitar said:
In season 1, King Robert says...  "Only a fool would meet the Dothraki in an open field"

Without cavalry of your own, there's no real way to stand against a cavalry charge.  There's only a few battles in history where an army without a cavalry beat an army with cavalry and in those, they outnumbered the cavalry heavily.  When that cavalry outnumbers your entire army, it's impossible.  Ever seen the charge of the Rohirrim in Lord of the Rings.  A Dothraki charge without Drogon would play out pretty much the same against infantry.

Robert knew that.  For how terrible of a king he was, he was an excellent battle commander.  Jaime should've known it too, but chose to try and take a stand instead of running to cross the river with his army.  It was a mistake even without the dragon.
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That's why I say that it didn't make sense to burn the wagons. The Dothraki could have easily taken out the wagon guards and they could have also taken the wagons with them.  Even if Jaime's army was only that tail end and the majority of the army was in KL, sending the KL army out onto the plains would have played right into the Dothraki strength.

 
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