Game of Thrones, tv only, books don't exist, no backstory...NERDS already ruining a series that hasn't started (5 Viewers)

[Snotbubbles]

Well, they probably didn't know until after season 3 was being filmed/written. The point is, everyone claiming it was ash in the throne room because it was foreshadowing Dany going mad and burning KL is wrong because the writers didn't know Dany was going mad and burning KL at that point.

If only the guy who wrote the books was alive, maybe the could have consulted him.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Lost in all the Daenerys talk is how disappointing of an end they gave to Varys.  Imagine traveling back in time to your old self watching the first few seasons of Varys in this show and telling him "yeah that dude is going to go out because his master plan of trying to overthrown the queen by walking up to a bunch of people that are loyal to the queen and bluntly asking them if they'll help him overthrow the queen surprisingly doesn't work out".

I remember 5-6 years ago in this thread all of us talking about how Varys/Littlefinger were always 4 steps ahead of everyone else and how they were the true drivers of this storyline.  For both of them to go out so laughably lazily will always be the ultimate disappointment in the last few seasons for me.  There's almost nothing they can do with the main storyline in the last episode that will usurp that for me, even if the whole thing is just Ned Stark's dream.

 

[Capella]

He may just be addicted to the word obtuse, and addiction is no laughing matter.    

Twice a year seems ok to me. I only break it out when necessary. 

 

[zoonation]

Lost in all the Daenerys talk is how disappointing of an end they gave to Varys.  Imagine traveling back in time to your old self watching the first few seasons of Varys in this show and telling him "yeah that dude is going to go out because his master plan of trying to overthrown the queen by walking up to a bunch of people that are loyal to the queen and bluntly asking them if they'll help him overthrow the queen surprisingly doesn't work out".

I remember 5-6 years ago in this thread all of us talking about how Varys/Littlefinger were always 4 steps ahead of everyone else and how they were the true drivers of this storyline.  For both of them to go out so laughably lazily will always be the ultimate disappointment in the last few seasons for me.  There's almost nothing they can do with the main storyline in the last episode that will usurp that for me, even if the whole thing is just Ned Stark's dream.

Good post.  

A lot of shortcuts had to happen when D&D decided they were going to wrap up the show in 13 eps after season 6.  

It is what it is.  

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

It's weird to me that people think there is a "correct" answer here. I understand the points fred and his ilk are making - I just don't agree. This season has really fallen flat for me, that's just been my natural reaction when watching the episodes. No amount of explanations or "hey remember this line" is going to change my thoughts. 

No pill is gonna heal your ills

you just didn't enjoy the excessive kills.

 

[Pipes]

Those were Walder Frey’s enemies.  Horrific but distinguishable. 

And I loved everything about that last ep (clegane bowl, Arya, Jamie/Cersei reunion and death - one final Hedley masterclass, cinematography, score etc) except the one thing.  

I think you can love a show and still articulate disappointment with sloppy aspects of it. 

True but at some point it becomes .  It seems like it's time for both sides to move on and discuss other things about the show or theories about next week.  Noone is changing their mind at this point.

 

[sn0mm1s]

Show me all the times walder frey ordered someone to stab a pregnant woman in the belly and shoot her husband in front of his mother then slit her throat.  

When people do really horrific #### it's usually for the first time.  

I understand you're unconvinced and want to continue not enjoying the show though.  Enjoy your complaining and i hope you hate the next one as much as you obviously plan to. 

None of them were innocent. Robb Stark lost his seat of power and betrayed the Freys. Robb then *needed* the Freys after betraying them. Walder Frey killed people who betrayed him for a better deal with the Lannisters. Betrayal answered with betrayal. Frey didn't flip out and burn down his own castle or order the killing of everyone at Riverrun once Jaime took it. Also, who said I am not enjoying the show? It is still good - I am just not being an apologist for the poor writing in this final season.

 

[Pipes]

Apples and oranges here.  We have no idea what Walder Frey's character was since they didn't spend any time developing him.  Same thing with Joffrey, he killed Ned Stark in Season 1, Episode 9.  They hadn't developed the charater enough to know how he would act.  But what they did show of him wasn't contrary to anything he did previously.  By the time he eventually did die, killing Ned Stark was totally within his character.

Dany on the other hand they spent 7 years of character development.  She didn't kill without (in her mind) a noble purpose.  Slavers, people who betrayed her, wronged her or wanted her dead.  They spent years showing how merciful she could be, how she was able to check even her worst impulses, how she went out of her way to do the right thing.  She didn't kill any innocent people.  She certainly wouldn't have killed children.  When her dragons did, she locked them away.  Ever since Tyrion joined up with her every other scene is about "breaking the wheel".  If she died, everything was lost and Westeros would be status quo.  Why spend years building up to that to have her basically go against everything she's worked towards?  It doesn't make sense.    

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

It's weird to me that people think there is a "correct" answer here. I understand the points fred and his ilk are making - I just don't agree. This season has really fallen flat for me, that's just been my natural reaction when watching the episodes. No amount of explanations or "hey remember this line" is going to change my thoughts. 

Ya know right after the NK death, I said to myself, I didn't really like it.  However I loved the burning of KL.  

 

[sn0mm1s]

Lost in all the Daenerys talk is how disappointing of an end they gave to Varys.  Imagine traveling back in time to your old self watching the first few seasons of Varys in this show and telling him "yeah that dude is going to go out because his master plan of trying to overthrown the queen by walking up to a bunch of people that are loyal to the queen and bluntly asking them if they'll help him overthrow the queen surprisingly doesn't work out".

I remember 5-6 years ago in this thread all of us talking about how Varys/Littlefinger were always 4 steps ahead of everyone else and how they were the true drivers of this storyline.  For both of them to go out so laughably lazily will always be the ultimate disappointment in the last few seasons for me.  There's almost nothing they can do with the main storyline in the last episode that will usurp that for me, even if the whole thing is just Ned Stark's dream.

Yeah, Varys and Littlefinger went out with whimpers. Especially Varys. On top of that, it wasn't like he was itching to get rid of Aerys, Viserys, Joffrey, or Cersei (who all have shown more signs of madness and cruelty than Daenerys ever has). His "all for the realm don't let someone mad rule" schtick is a little empty given his history.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Chekov's mystical powers?   One character was transformed into something that was more than human, with the ability to see through time and inhabit other people's bodies.   You believe it's ridiculous to believe that's supposed to lead to...something?

Hot Pie has more depth to his character.  

Hot Pie!!

 

[thecatch]

I think that's fair. Lot's of people share your opinion.

For me, I've enjoyed all 8 seasons, and there is so much entertainment there that any minor quibbles I have with some writing decisions don't negatively affect that enjoyment.

I was initially in the camp that felt like the heel turn was too sudden, but seeing the over the top reaction from the super nerd community has me going the other way now. The normally level-headed host of the Cast of Kings podcast called the episode a “disgrace” this week. I never thought I’d enjoy the Bill Simmons and Ryen Russilo recaps more than Binge Mode, et al, but here we are. 

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Night King was basically a glorified King Hippo imo.

Bald Bull imo

 

[Charlie Steiner]

Still waiting for one last, ironic "A Lannister always repays their debts".  I thought Jamie or whoever ended up killing Cersei would say it, but at this point I suppose it's going to be Dany saying it to Tyrion just before she lights him up.

 

[Gr00vus]

Still waiting for one last, ironic "A Lannister always repays their debts".  I thought Jamie or whoever ended up killing Cersei would say it, but at this point I suppose it's going to be Dany saying it to Tyrion just before she lights him up.

Maybe Tyrion says it to Bron?

 

[the moops]

yea dudes. I have had i-beefs with both of you in the past. let's all hug it out

 

[Mr. Mojo]

Still waiting for one last, ironic "A Lannister always repays their debts".  I thought Jamie or whoever ended up killing Cersei would say it, but at this point I suppose it's going to be Dany saying it to Tyrion just before she lights him up.

Or when Tyrion hands over Highgarden to Bronn?

 

[the moops]

hmm. that was supposed to be posted 2 hours ago

 

[Charlie Steiner]

Maybe Tyrion says it to Bron?

That's been done ad nauseum. Unless he adds the word 'b!tch' at the end as he kills him.

 

[Charlie Steiner]

Or when Tyrion hands over Highgarden to Bronn?

Tyrion is no longer in a position to hand over anything to anyone.  I figure Bronn can just march himself down there and take it for himself, then he'll send a raven to Tyrion asking him to be his hand, to which Tyrion can reply "I'm your huckleberry" or "This looks like the beginning of a beautiful friendship".

 

[sn0mm1s]

Tyrion is no longer in a position to hand over anything to anyone.  I figure Bronn can just march himself down there and take it for himself, then he'll send a raven to Tyrion asking him to be his hand, to which Tyrion can reply "I'm your huckleberry" or "This looks like the beginning of a beautiful friendship".

I suspect Bronn will get something. I mean, it would definitely be a GoT thing if a ******* (Gendry) becomes a lord and an amoral sellsword (Bronn) becomes a lord while a bunch of the other Great Houses fall.

 

[bostonfred]

That hitler guy never killed millions of people before.  Lazy writing. They never showed how he got from art school to genocide.  Totally unrealistic. The first world war was better.  I would have written it different.  I'm so smarter. 

 

[Bob Sacamano]

I suspect Bronn will get something. 

the pox

 

[sn0mm1s]

That hitler guy never killed millions of people before.  Lazy writing. They never showed how he got from art school to genocide.  Totally unrealistic. The first world war was better.  I would have written it different.  I'm so smarter. 

Troll.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Who gave tim the keys to bostonfred?

 

[hagmania]

That doesn't change everything that led up to it. 

Just to be clear

She clearly planned on shock and awe, fire and blood, including killing people inside king's landing, before the bells. I know this because i saw the dragon burn #### inside the gates before the bells.  

She clearly stopped when the bells rang. The episode was called the bells.  

Tyrion had asked her to stop if she heard the bells.  He would only have asked because it was clear that it was possible she would not stop.  It turns out he was right.  Oh, and she didn't answer.  This was not a completely sudden decision.  

She clearly heard the bells ring and her face changed.  I agree that that is the moment that she decided to keep burning the city.

She did this because she was uber pissed and "just snapped".

The reasons i listed are why she was uber pissed.

Those reasons do not excuse or justify her killing all those people.  I'm only explaining why she was so upset and why she snapped. 

It wasn't out of character, bad writing, poorly explained, too quick. It was the culmination of everything we'd watched.  She did a terrible thing and she will likely get killed because of it. But there was a LOT of buildup to that moment.  

It's insulting to the story to say it's bad writing for her to do something out of character like that.  When had joffrey ever ignored his mother before he yelled bring me his head?  When had walder frey ever sided with the lannisters?  We go back and see the warning signs and say oh George you're a genius but the backlash over this has been ridiculous.  

I see now, we are talking about different things. I am only concerned about that moment, and ultimately agree enough was foreshadowed. Ftr, you are doing an excellent job of articulating these explanations.

 

[zoonation]

That hitler guy never killed millions of people before.  Lazy writing. They never showed how he got from art school to genocide.  Totally unrealistic. The first world war was better.  I would have written it different.  I'm so smarter. 

Yikes.  Not your best work.  

 

[zoonation]

I see now, we are talking about different things. I am only concerned about that moment, and ultimately agree enough was foreshadowed. Ftr, you are doing an excellent job of articulating these explanations.

I agree.  Of all the stuff I’ve read online trying to defend the writing, BF has done the best job.  

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

She clearly stopped when the bells rang. The episode was called the bells.  

It’s pretty clear she saw her ‘victory’ being snatched from her.

 

[hagmania]

Night King was basically a glorified King Hippo imo.

mPap = Maester Aemon

 

[hagmania]

yea dudes. I have had i-beefs with both of you in the past. let's all hug it out

This is acute post.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Those reasons do not excuse or justify her killing all those people.  I'm only explaining why she was so upset and why she snapped.

I’m not sure if ‘upset’ is the right word. There’s a whole history of Targaryen reign behind all that. I thought the scenes of the wildfire going off from underneath the city was pretty telling. That was her father’s plan and he had been blunted but there it was being carried out. And it’s true, Dany was carrying out her father’s plot. 

Its funny, for all the hate/bad assigned to Jaime he really did a good thing once, he stopped the mad king. But he was oblivious, out of it here. Stop Dany, he would save his sister. That was probably beyond his reach, I don’t know, but he certainly didn’t see it. Did the thought not occur to him at Winterfell that he was within arm’s length of the mad king’s Daughter and heir and after all the hell he had been through she was just about to step back into his throne? I’ll argue for narrative consistency every time, but if you put yourself in Jaime’s shoes seeing Dany emerging and then flying overhead must have been quite the existential eye opener.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Also, Cersei scooting by the Hound/Mountain fight was kind of ‘I’ll just see myself out now.’

 

[zoonation]

I’m not sure if ‘upset’ is the right word. There’s a whole history of Targaryen reign behind all that. I thought the scenes of the wildfire going off from underneath the city was pretty telling. That was her father’s plan and he had been blunted but there it was being carried out. And it’s true, Dany was carrying out her father’s plot. 

Its funny, for all the hate/bad assigned to Jaime he really did a good thing once, he stopped the mad king. But he was oblivious, out of it here. Stop Dany, he would save his sister. That was probably beyond his reach, I don’t know, but he certainly didn’t see it. Did the thought not occur to him at Winterfell that he was within arm’s length of the mad king’s Daughter and heir and after all the hell he had been through she was just about to step back into his throne? I’ll argue for narrative consistency every time, but if you put yourself in Jaime’s shoes seeing Dany emerging and then flying overhead must have been quite the existential eye opener.

Difference being that the Mad King was going to light the city up as a last resort.  Burn as many of the conquering forces (innocents be damned) as he could.  

Dany did it on the front end.  No threat.  

Both bananas.  One way worse.  

Turns out Dany is the most evil person ever in GOT lore.  

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Difference being that the Mad King was going to light the city up as a last resort.  Burn as many of the conquering forces (innocents be damned) as he could.  

Dany did it on the front end.  No threat.  

Both bananas.  One way worse.  

Turns out Dany is the most evil person ever in GOT lore.  

But she *knows that lore, right? She torches the city knowing that explosive is underneath the city. Unwritten stuff in there is great, but that’s whats going on.

 

[-fish-]

“When your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you”

Any of you want to explain how this just disappeared from the story?

 

[sn0mm1s]

“When your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you”

Any of you want to explain how this just disappeared from the story?

Wasn’t part of the show. 

 

[sn0mm1s]

But she *knows that lore, right? She torches the city knowing that explosive is underneath the city. Unwritten stuff in there is great, but that’s whats going on.

No, not many people knew. Especially not Dany. 

 

[Bobcat10]

Anyone still upset about Dany should go down a Twitter rabbit hole to see what the whack job psycho Dany fans are saying. Good chance you appreciate Dany burning KL. Can’t believe some of the things I’m reading....about a tv show. 

 

[Quint]

[tinfoilhat]

Dany heads back to the North to confront Sansa who won’t bend a knee after hearing about the KL BBQ. 

In an ultimate heel-turn, Sam kills Dany as revenge for his dad and brother. 

Or, since he’s all wicked smahrt from the Citadel book learnin’, he’s figured out another way to kill a dragon and sends Drogon to the Rainbow Bridge. 

[/tinfoilhat]

 

[Mario Kart]

After some reflection about this past episode... the way things were handled were awesome. What more does a person need? Who wants to see 3-4 episodes of Dany slowly going mad? Actually, she has always been mad against people that are in her way. She really didn't go "mad," she went Dany in the best way Dany can go Dany. Is she doesn't lose Jorah, Missandei, Aegon, her dragons, the Dothraki, and so on... she stays lovable. She did what she knows best to do.

If Aegon would simply love his aunt and love her hard, no problems. Blame Aegon.

 

[-fish-]

Wasn’t part of the show. 

Just rewatched the scene.  Forgot they cut that part out.   

 

[Slapdash]

Has Daenerys actually committed any crimes?

 

[zoonation]

After some reflection about this past episode... the way things were handled were awesome. What more does a person need? Who wants to see 3-4 episodes of Dany slowly going mad? Actually, she has always been mad against people that are in her way. She really didn't go "mad," she went Dany in the best way Dany can go Dany. Is she doesn't lose Jorah, Missandei, Aegon, her dragons, the Dothraki, and so on... she stays lovable. She did what she knows best to do.

If Aegon would simply love his aunt and love her hard, no problems. Blame Aegon.

Agree Jon should’ve offered the D.  But he was raised by idiots at winterfell.  

Cant get to “lost everything so now i’ll Kill tens of thousands of innocent women and children”.  Not from the person who once imprisoned her dragons because one innocent child died. 

Without a compelling reason to convince me, no version of untold personal tragedy justifies (or explains) why someone would murder thousands of innocents.  

 

[sn0mm1s]

Has Daenerys actually committed any crimes?

Depends. Is she queen or not?

 

[The Big Donkey]

Agree Jon should’ve offered the D.  But he was raised by idiots at winterfell.  

Cant get to “lost everything so now i’ll Kill tens of thousands of innocent women and children”.  Not from the person who once imprisoned her dragons because one innocent child died. 

Without a compelling reason to convince me, no version of untold personal tragedy justifies (or explains) why someone would murder thousands of innocents.  

LOL, you twelve?    This how you think?    Shame... Shame...

 

[dickey moe]

This part is huge for me. 

I'm still chewing on it... 

His love and loyalty for Cersei were too strong for anything else (including redemption) to overcome.

 

[Mile High]

But she *knows that lore, right? She torches the city knowing that explosive is underneath the city. Unwritten stuff in there is great, but that’s whats going on.

No, not many people knew. Especially not Dany. 

In season 6 episode 9.. when the masters attacked Meereen, Dany and Tyrion were having a nice little chat in which Danaerys tells Tyrion that she is going to destroy the city (since that is what the masters want). Tyrion says,

“You once told me you knew what your father was! Did you know his plans for kings landing when the lannister armies were at his gates?…...Probably not..Well, he told my brother and Jaime told me. He had caches of wildlife hidden under the Red Keep, the Guildhalls, the Sept of Baelor, all the major thoroughfares. He would have burned every one of his citizens. The loyal ones and the traitors. Every man, woman and child. That's why Jaime killed him.”

Daenerys says, “This is entirely different”.

Tyrion says, “Talking about destroying cities!!….it’s not entirely different”.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

“When your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you”

Any of you want to explain how this just disappeared from the story?

if you look at the last clip of Cersei and Jamie his hands are around her face and neck......and she was balling her eyes out......

so.....technically...….

 

[Maik Jeaunz]

His love and loyalty for Cersei were too strong for anything else (including redemption) to overcome.

yeah, I'm not sure why this part is so hard for people. Jaime was never the hero of the story. he was totally devoted to Cersei, except for that brief stroll up to Winterfell to save the world.