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*** GAME THREAD *** New England v. Philadelphia (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter xyrza
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bostonfred
Footballguy
As the season has gone on, it's mind boggling the difference Jermiah Trotter has made for the team. At first it was a novelty that he re-signed for a minimum deal, and then after getting pasted by the Steelers, it was intriguing to see him re-inserted into the starting lineup. But I still wondered what he had left in those knees, because local reports said he couldn't even move laterally at the start of training camp. But he's not only totally revamped the Eagles rushing defense, he's become the leader of the defense again (for those who don't know, Trot was the 2-time team MVP before leaving for the Skins), both in his play and his emotional intensity.Also, for a team that spent the better part of the last two years with half our defensive line injured, to see Derrick Burgess and Hollis Thomas making huge plays as part of the rotation was a thing of infinite beauty.
Trotter's such an ideal fit for Philly and their D line - and such a bad fit for Washington. I thought it was really interesting in another thread that he would have made more money by signing for the smaller deal in a good situation, then taking the first couple years of a mega deal in a bad situation and coming back for a smaller deal in Philly. The Eagles are doing a great job of hardline cap management, and it's no surprise that the teams that do that best - locking up their best players long term, refusing to overpay (even their defensive MVPs - see Trotter, Milloy), and getting quality at every position - are meeting in the Superbowl.
Maggot Brain
Footballguy
I agree with much of this analysis, but I'm standing by my statement that the Eagles defense-especially the secondary-will outplay the NE receivers and make key plays to help Philly win the game. It'll be an interesting next 2 weeks and I'm sure all kinds of analyses and predictions will abound for/against both teams.This is a great post and exactly on point. The Panthers last year did exactly that. The Patriots I'm sure prepared for and schemed to take away the smash mouth running duo of Davis and Foster, as that's how the Panthers won all year and in the playoffs. John Fox turned the tables and aired it out all game with pretty damn good success, especially in the second half. He caught the Pats off guard. The Steelers couldn't really do that because while they had great offensive talent all around, the key to adapability to switch from a run offense to a pass offense is the QB, and there's no way you let a rookie loose 40+ times. NE KNEW what the Steelers had to do to win the game and tried to take it away, and did.Andy Reid has that option. He's not saving Westbrook for next week. He can hand him the ball 30 times if he wants/needs to. He can bring in Dorsey Levens for 15 carries if he wants to. Not sure if that's what he's thinking, but it is an option.Andy Reid is 8-0 after byes in his career. He knows what he's doing. He will have an offensive gameplan that will be effective. It's going to be up to the players to execute it.That's not the way to beat the Pats IMO. Want to beat the Patriots offense? Scheme to beat your own defense, then scheme to change your team to beat that offense. The Pats' only offensive tendency is that they change their offensive identity dramatically from weak to weak to beat the opposing defense. Same thing on defense, really. The reason the Pats can scheme so well is they have so many tweeners on defense, 2-3 TEs on offense who can catch the ball and block, WRs who can all catch the ball, a couple RBs who can run, block and catch, and Tom Brady. They can really take on any game plan necessary to beat a given opponent. Going into the Pittsburgh game, people said the Pats were going to have to play smashmouth football and beat the Steelers at their own game. Everyone knew what the Steelers were going to do, and it was a question of whether the Pats could beat it. Guess what? Brady goes over the top twice to Branch, hits a couple huge plays early, and keeps the Steelers D moving all game. But there is a vulnerability. When the Pats stood up the Colts on the goal line on that first and goal from the 2 a couple years ago, they said that the Colts had gone for 4th and 1 x number of times in the past, and that they had run almost every single time. So the Pats played run on the goal line and stopped it. The next time the Pats played the Colts, the same situation came up at midfield. Manning looks at the D, remembers last time, and audibles to a naked boot.The result? A 17 yard run. If you want to beat the most adaptable team in the league, you have to be so good they can't adapt, or be more adaptable yourself. We've seen a couple teams that were very good at what they do, and the Pats were able to prepare for them and then some. I think the only way to neutralize that preparation is to be different when the game comes.
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Iwannabeacowboybaby!
Footballguy
The difference though is that New England has now dominated which could have been the 2nd and 3rd best teams in the league. Atlanta is definately not top 5 in the NFL, especially on the road.The team to beat is New England
Brady vs. McNabb: Slight Edge to Brady
Dillon vs. Westbrook: Slight edge to Dillon
NE WR's vs. Philly Wr's: Edge to NE
NE D vs. Philly D: Even
Special Teams: Even
Coaching: Slight Edge to NE
Field Conditions: Even
Certainly they have to play the game, but I don't see anywhere where Philly has an advantage over New England.
ShadowMaster
Footballguy
I'd LIKE to see the eagles win because I like to see different teams take the title - but I'm not going to put myself through the pain.Gonna go PATS.
Maggot Brain
Footballguy
A fair assessment across the board. But how about doing a TRUE matchup comparison. McNabb doesn't square off vs Brady, but rather NE's defense. I think any matchup analysis should compare those things rather than just the positional counterparts.Wouldn't it be more accurate to bump McNabb/Brady against the defenses they'll be facing rather than each other. They're not on the field at the same time. Either way, I can't see anyone outside of a Philly fan picking anyone other than the Patriots. And I have no problem whatsoever with this. NE absolutely should be favored with their recent history in the playoffs.
Edited: for spelling
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Ne played 8 in the box against the steelers played 5 in the box against colts..I assume they will play 5 in the box against the eagles..If they do the eagles will have to run for first downs and make ne make some choices so far neither colts or pitt has made ne defense change anything..Colts ol was not good enough to run the ball and pitt was not willing to throw early...To get to ne defense you have to take what there giving you and take a beating so far no one is up to the task...
Statorama
Footballguy
Edit to add: I am a Saints fan, so I really don't care who wins this game. As a Saints fan, this is something I'm used to feeling each Superbowl
I think your score prediction is being quite kind actually. I have a theory why the Patriots will win huge, but it infuriates the Pat Fans when I bring it up so I won't.The Pats will score everytime they have the ball, and this game will be over at halftime.I see the Eagles scoring a couple of garbage TD's in the fourth quarter to make the final score
atriots 52Eagles 17I obviously like the Pats giving 6.5 and the over. My other predictions:Game Notes:- Eagles score first (Akers FG)- Patriots score two defensive TD's- Dillon will score the first TD- Tom Brady will be MVP- Patriots score at least 10 points each quarter- Owens will play and catch a TD in the fourth quarter
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Cocky Crow
Footballguy
I believe it is $500. Easily quadrupled on the open market.
bostonfred
Footballguy
:rotflmao:
Attention
For the humor impaired, all of my posts in the Shark Pool from henceforth shall be denoted with this is a joke where appropriate.
The Steelers and Eagles once merged in 1943, forming the Philadelphia - Pittsburgh Steagles. The Patriots will have to beat both halves of the Steagles en route to their third title.
"The Steagles played four home games in Philadelphia and two more in Pittsburgh, finishing a respectable 5-4-1. The players made the best of it while the rival coaches, Walt Kiesling and Greasy Neale, barely spoke."
"Earle (Greasy) Neale of Philadelphia and Walt Kiesling of Pittsburgh served as co-coaches. The merger automatically dissolved the last day of the season, December 5."
Question: If the 2004 Eagles and Steelers merged, could they beat these Patriots? This is a joke.
Also of note:
"1944: After not being able to come together for a 2nd season with Philadelphia Eagles, the Steelers sought out another merger, this time joining with Chicago Cardinals. With same deal in place the team would be officially known as Card-Pitt. However, unlike their merger with the Eagles, the merger with Cardinals was a total disaster. The Cardinals who were the worst team at the time dragged down the Steelers as Card-Pitt were rolled over and walked on all season losing all 10 games."
question: If the 2004 Eagles, Steelers, and Cardinals all merged, could they beat these Patriots? This is a joke.
For the humor impaired, all of my posts in the Shark Pool from henceforth shall be denoted with this is a joke where appropriate.
The Steelers and Eagles once merged in 1943, forming the Philadelphia - Pittsburgh Steagles. The Patriots will have to beat both halves of the Steagles en route to their third title.
"The Steagles played four home games in Philadelphia and two more in Pittsburgh, finishing a respectable 5-4-1. The players made the best of it while the rival coaches, Walt Kiesling and Greasy Neale, barely spoke."
"Earle (Greasy) Neale of Philadelphia and Walt Kiesling of Pittsburgh served as co-coaches. The merger automatically dissolved the last day of the season, December 5."
Question: If the 2004 Eagles and Steelers merged, could they beat these Patriots? This is a joke.
Also of note:
"1944: After not being able to come together for a 2nd season with Philadelphia Eagles, the Steelers sought out another merger, this time joining with Chicago Cardinals. With same deal in place the team would be officially known as Card-Pitt. However, unlike their merger with the Eagles, the merger with Cardinals was a total disaster. The Cardinals who were the worst team at the time dragged down the Steelers as Card-Pitt were rolled over and walked on all season losing all 10 games."
question: If the 2004 Eagles, Steelers, and Cardinals all merged, could they beat these Patriots? This is a joke.
Jason Wood
Zoo York
There was an article in ESPN the Magazine this week which said face value ranges from $400 to $600 IIRC.
I am not an advocate of looking at common opponents to predict future outcomes, but for the purposes of this argument, looking at just the three games that "count" - both teams lost to New England, but while Philly squeaked by both Balt and Cle, New England crushed both teams.
JAA
Footballguy
Interesting.The Falcons were the number 1 ranked rushing offense in the NFL. The Eagles held them to 99 on the day. The "fairly one dimensional" Eagles rushed for 156 yards against the Falcons. This with Westbrook and Levens. The Eagles held Atl to 3.8 yards per carry and Phi averaged 4.7 yards per carry.Phi only threw for 170 yards and managed 27 points in the game.You have the best team in the league and the trophy in your house. I look forward to a game on a Neutral Field to decide the NFL Champion. I also like being the underdog into this game. As a Pats fan, do you remember your 1st SuperBowl victory as an underdog?
Jason Wood
Zoo York
I'm going to try my best to stay out of the NE-PHI debates this next two weeks, but I can't let this statement go unchecked. Since Trotter took over at middle linebacker the Eagles rush defense has been QUITE GOOD and in the playoffs (against the best rushing team in the league mind you), has trended toward excellent.The Eagles secondary (and DC Jim Johnson's confidence in them) is one of the few in the league good enough whereby they can blitz the run comfortably regardless of down and distance. There's no question that the Patriots are far better prepared to test that theory than Atlanta was or Pittsburgh would have been, but this is going to be fun to watch and difficult to analyze until we see the matchup unfold on the field.
Football Jones
Footballguy
I'm not sure how Philly rates among the 32 teams (probably not in the top-4), but they did come out of the NFC, albiet in a watered down conference. The real problem for them will be they aren't dominant on either side of the ball, & it takes being dominant on at least offense or defense to have a good chance at beating New England. I can see the Pats' D frustrating McNabb as the Eagles fall behind, forcing him into trying to make plays that aren't there. This could easily be a semi-blowout (or worse), even with a healthy TO & no Law or Seymour. The Pats are getting very close to becoming more of a dynasty than my Cowboys were in the 90s...& this is in the salary cap/FA era. Incredible.As a fan of neither team, I'm hoping to see an exciting game (meaning close). I just don't see it, though. If I were betting, I'd take New England up to 9.5. I believe the 6 or so it is now will be a mortal lock.
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Football Jones
Footballguy
Does Philly have a good D? Yes. You could even say very good. They're just not dominant, IMO. And like I said, I believe it takes a dominant O or D to have a good chance at beating New England. The Eagles have neither, IMO. You guys do have a good team, no doubt, but the Pats are great, IMO.
Johnny Ice
Footballguy
I agree, Belichick will find some way to take away Westbrook for the most part. Can those WRs start making some plays vs. a great D, and sustain drives. No doubt Pinkston will be thrown around like a rag doll.
Jason Wood
Zoo York
Just for kicks...how would you define "dominant?"Because seemingly you're willing to credit NE with the "dominant" tag, but not Philadelphia.
Yards Allowed -- NE 5,884 (7th), Philadelphia 5,847 (8th)
Points Allowed -- NE 260 (2nd), PHI 260 (2nd)
Sacks -- NE 45 (3rd), PHI 47 (2nd)
Interceptions -- NE 21, PHI 17Despite playing their second stringers for 2 games, PHI tied NE for 2nd fewest points allowed, had more sacks, nearly as many INTs, and was within 3 yards of tying them for yards allowed. The only full year metric that NE has over PHI is rushing yards allowed, but as we've discussed previously, post-Trotter, PHI was the 4th best team in the league against the run.
Chase Stuart
Footballguy
I haven't read most of the posts BUT...This SuperBowl is sorta like the Bills-49ers one that we never got, right? You're talking about the two best teams from the past four years.Philadelphia: 48 regular season wins, 6 playoff winsNew England: 48 regular season wins, 8 playoff winsPhiladelphia has pretty clearly been the class of the NFC the past four years, being the best team in the conference three of those years.New England has pretty clearly been the class of the AFC the past four years, winning the conference championship three of those years.About time these two teams finally met, eh? Should be a great game.
David Yudkin
Footballguy
The Eagles only beat 3 teams this year that ended the season with more wins than losses (all of them at home, BTW). The Patriots won 9 games against teams with winning records this year.In-game injuries not withstanding, I really have a hard time seeing how the Eagles will win this game. Philadelphia would need to have their "A" game and New England would really have to be really off their game (like a "D" game) for them to win, IMO.Even Eagles fans will have to admit that demolishing the Colts and dominating the Steelers in Pittsburgh would rank a lot higher than beating the Vikings and Falcons in terms of accomplishments.I hesitate to predict a score, as I suspect that the final outcome might end up closer than the game actually was (ie, late Philly TD that doesn't really matter but makes the score seem a little closer).
Both coaches will have great game plans...it will come down to player execution. You can bring up all the history that you want, but that's all it is...history.The QB has the biggest chance to make impact and there is no doubt in my mind that McNabb will prove at this point in his career he is a better QB than Brady.I'd also take Westbrook with his versatility over Dillon.Without TO you got us beat a WR, but against our secondary it won't mean a whole lot.Man, I can't wait for this game![Edited for spelling error]
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Patriots are a great team, no doubt...but I wasn't all that impressed. I didn't think the Colts or Steelers made you work very hard for it.Were you impressed at the containment the Eagles D had on Vick? They won't have to worry about that with Brady...a lot more pressure will be coming his way!
Johnny Ice
Footballguy
:rotflmao: I absolutely hate NE but you have to give it to them, they made those teams look bad.
Jason Wood
Zoo York
Hey David,I'm not going to argue with you as to the ultimate outcome. The Patriots should be (and ARE) favored, rightfully so. However, you're savvy enough to realize that by and large you can throw out the records come the Super Bowl.Wasn't that long ago New England was the SB team that stood "NO CHANCE" against the unbeatable Rams. The Rams had the league's best offense, a top 10 defense, had already won a Super Bowl and rolled through the regular season. New England had put together a hot streak to make the Bowl, had a bend but don't break defense, but was the 2nd largest underdog in Super Bowl history. FOURTEEN POINT UNDERDOG...and we know how that ended up don't we?Last year, Panthers were supposed to be a pushover for the Pats, didn't happen. In Denver's first SB win, Green Bay was supposed to beat up on the "doormat AFC" as the world had become comfortable with the idea that the NFC was unbeatable and the AFC was the inferior conference. Yet, Denver ended a THIRTEEN YEAR NFC run of SB titles.The list goes on and on, few SBs have gone according to plan. As I said, will I be surprised if NE wins convincingly? Certainly not.But it's been a long time since the two odds on favorites (preseason Vegas odds) met in the big game, and PHI is hardly a pushover. Belichick may be masteful, but Reid's record with 2 weeks to prepare has been phenomenal in his own right, so you can be sure both team's will have a few things up their sleeve.
bostonfred
Footballguy
The Patriots just held the highest scoring QB in NFL history without a TD, then scored 41 points (34 offensive) to beat the best D in the league. Aside from that, though, you are correct that the Patriots haven't had to work hard for it.
Yes. I think a lot of people are overlooking the Eagles here, and I may be guilty of it over these next couple weeks, but when you look at that team, they're really a great matchup against the Pats - they've got a mobile QB, which the Pats have rarely faced, they've got a great offensive line, and we saw that the Pats had a hard time slowing down Pittsburgh's great offensive line, they've got a stud WR who's better than any one of the Patriot D backs, and a stud RB who's able to work them short. They've got a defense that's stout against the run, but is built for covering multi-receiver sets. The Eagles D is excellent, and may at this point in the season be better than Pittsburgh was. The Steelers D certainly benefitted from their time of possession game, so it may be that the Eagles have the more talented D. They certainly get good pressure on QBs without blitzing (and we saw in the Miami game that Brady can be forced into turnovers when pressured) and they have a secondary that has the depth to cover all of the Patriot receivers. That's a scary combination. The Eagles offense is also excellent, especially with Terrell Owens. I think the Eagles are correct to wait as long as possible to say whether he's playing because the Pats typically gameplan to take away the opposing team's best offensive weapon, and that's Owens if he's healthy, and Westbrook if he's not. People who are saying that this is a gimme for the Pats may be surprised by how tough a matchup this is. People who are saying this won't be a great game are really just saying they don't much like either of the teams. By the way, if you want to look back at the least compelling matchup in Superbowl history, look no further than the Giants-Ravens snooze fest from a couple years ago. The Ravens earned that title, and the Giants had a nice run, but that was horrible. If you want to look a little further back, of course, Pats-Bears is still a pretty terrible game - even Bears fans must have wanted Miami in that game.
Football Jones
Footballguy
Just because a team finishes with good yearly totals doesn't make them dominant. It's really just a matter of opinion, though (like anything else). Anyway, a team would have to be truly dominant on either offense or defense to beat New England on a nuetral field, IMO. The other side of the ball would have to hold up their end of the bargain, as well. For instance, Indy has the O, but not the D. In short, I just believe the Pats are clearly better than any of the other 31 teams. Anything can happen, of course, but I can't see the things happening which would allow Philly to pull off the upset.
Football Jones
Footballguy
I assumed wrongly. My bad.
David Yudkin
Footballguy
I never said that the Eagles COULDN'T win this game, only that I would be extremely surprised if they did. Obviously, anything can happen in a single game.The example you cited concerning the Rams was one . . . except the Rams were convinced that the title was theirs and all they had to do was show up to accept it. They clearly did not focus in on beating the Pats that day, and I highly doubt that the Patriots are counting any chickens just yet and are busy scheming away to make a game plan against Philly. They will not overlook the Eagles at all.I compiled the numbers on the Eagles and Pats defense in the post-season since 2001, and here's what I found:Eagles (6-3)115.3 rushing yards allowed per game184.6 passing yards allowed per game299.9 total yards allowed per game16.1 points allowed per game1.67 turnovers forced per game1.67 sacks per game3 total defensive TDPatriots (8-0)88.5 rushing yards allowed per game237.0 passing yards allowed per game325.5 total yards allowed per game16.8 points allowed per game2.63 turnovers forced per game2.5 sacks per game4 total defensive TD1 safetyThis year's Patriots team is likely the best of their 3 Super Bowl teams. The Eagles are probably the second best team the Pats have had to play (Rams #1, Panthers #3). IMO, the Colts and Steelers were probably better teams than the Eagles this year (others will likely disagree), and the Pats made them both look bad.Who knows . . .maybe the Eagles will game plan a scheme that totally confuses the Patriots, the Eagles defensive could stick it to the Pats and get Brady running for his life, and the Eagles OL manhandles the Pats defense and the Eagles march up and down the field. Stranger things have happened . . . but that's not how I'm reading the tea leaves.
zoonation
Footballguy
Hey Wood,How you doin so far keeping out of the NE-PHI debate.
I for one welcome all your analysis, as I don't believe the Iggles awesome D is getting nearly enough cred. NE is in for a battle, and they should thank God TO is out; they don't have a corner who could play him man-up, and would have their hand forced in terms of what D's they would have to play. As it stands now, they are free to do whatever they want. Turnovers will decide this game.Finally, TO will not play in this game, although he may dress for inspirational purposes.
Jason Wood
Zoo York
LOL...not as well as I'd hoped.But honestly, the big difference between the SB matchup and the last few games is that I believed (correctly as it turns out) that Philly was heads and shoulders above its NFC playoff opponents that I didn't understand how close to 50% of people on this board would honestly think Philly would lose either game. But in this instance I see no reason why much greater than 50% of the board shouldn't view the Patriots as the favorite to win, and win convincly. That's fine, I don't think any objective fan can deny the Patriots deserve to be favored, but there's a difference between saying NE is going to win and discounting just how good this Eagles squad is.Hey Wood,How you doin so far keeping out of the NE-PHI debate.
Football Jones
Footballguy
To be fair to me & a lot of other people that aren't NEP or PHI fans, we realize the Eagles are a good team. It's just that we believe the Pats might be one of the best teams of all time (or at least I do). Couple that with this being the era of the salary cap & FA, they're even more impressive.LOL...not as well as I'd hoped.But honestly, the big difference between the SB matchup and the last few games is that I believed (correctly as it turns out) that Philly was heads and shoulders above its NFC playoff opponents that I didn't understand how close to 50% of people on this board would honestly think Philly would lose either game. But in this instance I see no reason why much greater than 50% of the board shouldn't view the Patriots as the favorite to win, and win convincly. That's fine, I don't think any objective fan can deny the Patriots deserve to be favored, but there's a difference between saying NE is going to win and discounting just how good this Eagles squad is.Hey Wood,How you doin so far keeping out of the NE-PHI debate.
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Insoxicated
To everyone saying Owens is a badass... I don't disagree.... but you might be overlooking one key statline:5 catches - 44 Yards - 0 TDsMarvin Harrison 2 weeks ago. And Indy had Stokely and Wayne as well... Eagles have a weaker receiving core. No, it's not an apples to apples comparison... but food for thought. The Eagles receivers can expect to be hit hard as they come off the line....
Maggot Brain
Footballguy
SeniorVBDStudent
Footballguy
I think it's pretty easy for the Iggles to "steal" a win here, if you think about the problems that Miami's secondary has given Brady. It's probably just a platitude, but whoever wins the turnover battle wins the game. Given the sound coaching on both sides, I see a field goal war.Pats 23Iggles 16 
Green and Gold
Footballguy
I think McNabb is the key to this game. If he's at his mobile, accurate best, New England will be in a lot of trouble. As opposed to other years, I see this as the best game of the playoffs. It will come down to the wire.GG
Billy Bats
Footballguy
I really can't believe that some people think the Eagles shouldn't even bother showing up in Jacksonville at all. Is everyone forgetting that Monday night game in Miami?? Yes, New England is a great team, but McNabb is not a rookie QB, he DOESN'T THROW INT'S, like Big Ben did, 3 times. Yea it's real easy to see the final score of the Pats game and say yea they destroyed them, but why was that the final?? Alot. most of it, had to do with Big Ben, and I'm thinking that McNabb is a little bit of a better QB than him. The Eagles DO NOT turn the ball over, and have a very, very good D, that is being underestimated right now, by alot of you. I'm not prediciting an Eagles win, but it will be a good game, and the Eagles have a real shot at winning this thing. You will see.
Chase Stuart
Footballguy
Considering that the terrible Colts D (19th in points allowed, 29th in yards allowed) to just 20 points, and the average Steelers O (11th in points scored, 14th in yards) scored 27 points, New England should just be happy to be here.
railman305
Footballguy
the eagles wont be pushovers, our defense will help keep us in the game, and westbrook again is the key, if NE shuts him down we're done, I really think if the eagles play a nice balanced gameplan (not too much blitzing, getting pressure on brady wont affect him as much as some of these younger QBs), If i had to bet straight up Id take the Pats, even though my hearts with philly, I think they can keep it close, and have a decent shot at winning itoh ya TO WILL PLAY,
SeniorVBDStudent
Footballguy
If McNabb is, as you say, at his mobile, accurate best, the Eagles will score 2 or 3 times. If Brady is at his best, the Pats will score 2 or 3 times. So in fact McNabb is not the (only) key to this game. In fact, to argue so basically concedes the notion that Brady will score 2 or 3 times, and McNabb must do the same to keep up, and I think that logic does a disservice to the Eagles. I do however agree that it will come down to the wire.
Iwannabeacowboybaby!
Footballguy
I don't think they have it without a healthy Terell Owens.Eagles fans are correct in stating that they have to play the game. Anything can and sometimes does happen in any given game.Philadelphia is a good enough team if New England uncharacteristically stumbles in the Super Bowl, they can beat them.If NE plays as well as they have the past 2 games, nobody can beat them. The question is will they, we've all become expectant of them in doing so.I thought both of the Championships games were boring, as the outcome was decided going into the 4th Qtr IMO. Sure games are never over, but it was a wish and a prayer.I'm hoping that the SB is a good game, as it's the last one for a long time.
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