gluehands (1 Viewer)

[BassNBrew]

I am amazed at the street cred that KC Joyner carries around here. If you read his "book" from last year he was actually missing games from early in the season, games he never taped. I admire what the guy is trying to do but his work is certainly open for interpretation. He grades players based on what he sees yet has zero football background.

I agree with you. KC "The football Scientist" Joyner is a bit of hack. In one of his latest articles he claimed that Matt Hasselbeck and Ben Roethlisberger were two of the worst decision makers in the NFL.

Oh yeah, Ben Roethlisberger is a bastion of good decision making. Really beyond reproof. Clearly Joyner is a hack for calling him out here. I mean, just look at the numbers!Here's the rankings of all 32 leading passers from last season in terms of Int rate.

Pass Attempts per Interception:

73.5 - Brad Johnson

65.1 - Jake Plummer

60.4 - Byron Leftwich

50.7 - Trent Green

49.9 - Matt Hasselbeck

47.1 - Kerry Collins

45.4 - Mark Brunell

45.3 - Peyton Manning

44.7 - Chris Simms

44.3 - Brooks Bollinger

43.3 - Steve McNair

42.4 - Carson Palmer

41.7 - Kurt Warner

39.7 - Donovan McNabb

38.5 - David Carr

38.0 - Gus Frerotte

37.9 - Tom Brady

32.8 - Eli Manning

33.3 - Drew Brees

31.9 - Marc Bulger

29.8 - Michael Vick

29.8 - Ben Roethlisberger

29.4 - Drew Bledsoe

28.8 - Kelly Holcomb

28.0 - Kyle Orton

27.8 - Trent Dilfer

27.5 - Joey Harrington

27.1 - Jake Delhomme

25.4 - Aaron Brooks

24.4 - Kyle Boller

20.9 - Brett Favre

15.0 - Alex Smith

See? Ben is a GREAT decision maker! He throws fewer picks than... ummm... the legendary Kyle Orton! And he managed a better INT rate than Kyle Boller and Trent Dilfer, to boot! What a stud!

I think a lot of people could benefit from paying more attention to Joyner's numbers instead of conventional wisdom.

Turn that list upside down and you'll get the playoff rankings when it really matters.

 

[SSOG]

And what do those numbers say about Matt Hasselbeck? Why is it that you failed to put his name in bold? Afterall, Joyner's "research" makes him out to be one of the worst decision makers in the NFL...Lastly, "conventional wisdom" tells me that Big Ben is damn good QB that lead his team to the Super Bowl in just his second year.

I didn't bold Hasselbeck because I didn't have a conventional statistic that declared him a poor decision maker. That wasn't the point. The point was that his "Hass and Big Ben are poor decision makers" point wasn't as ridiculous as you made it out to be- it's easily demonstrateable that Big Ben is a poor decision maker. Is it really that hard to believe that if you dig a bit deeper into the stats that Hasselbeck might be, as well?I agree wholeheartedly that Big Ben is a damn good QB. His ypa is ridiculous. He's pretty mobile, very accurate, good outside of the pocket or after he's been hit. He has a lot of strengths. His decision-making isn't one of them. He's a gunslinger, plain and simple. He forces a lot of passes. A lot of them wind up getting intercepted.I hate this idea that, just because someone's a great player, then every aspect of their game is great. I have people try to tell me that Terrell Owens is one of the best deep threats in the NFL- which is utter bull. Owens is a mediocre deep threat, and his hands are absolute rubbish. He's just so phenominal after the catch and he's so impossible to disrupt off the line of scrimmage that his strengths far overshine his weaknesses. Terrell Davis was probably the best RB in the NFL over a 3-year span, but he had the worst breakway speed in the league. Barry Sanders was the most dynamic runner I've ever seen, but he was maddeningly inconsistant. Randy Moss has poor work ethic. Marvin Harrison has a horrible ypc because he ducks out of bounds to avoid every single hit. His routes and hands are phenominal, but his physicality leaves a lot to be desired. John Elway and Brett Favre are two of the best QBs in history, but they're gunslingers who force a lot of passes and get their teams in trouble sometimes.EVERY player has weaknesses- Hasselbeck and Roethlisberger, included. So what if it their weakness happens to be "decision making"?

 

[SSOG]

Turn that list upside down and you'll get the playoff rankings when it really matters.

Yes, because the Steelers beat the Seahawks thanks to the stellar play of Big Ben Rooflesberger and the horrible quarterbacking from Matt Hasselbeck "when it really mattered".

 

[BassNBrew]

EVERY player has weaknesses-

Except Steve Smith unless you count drawing 3 defenders to shut you down as a weakness. Just imagine Elway throwing to Smith.

 

[BassNBrew]

Turn that list upside down and you'll get the playoff rankings when it really matters.

Yes, because the Steelers beat the Seahawks thanks to the stellar play of Big Ben Rooflesberger and the horrible quarterbacking from Matt Hasselbeck "when it really mattered".

I was really taking a poke at your boy Plummer just to entertain you.

 

[This_Is_Not_VRR]

I didn't bold Hasselbeck because I didn't have a conventional statistic that declared him a poor decision maker. That wasn't the point. The point was that his "Hass and Big Ben are poor decision makers" point wasn't as ridiculous as you made it out to be- it's easily demonstrateable that Big Ben is a poor decision maker.

So rather than admit that there are no conventional statistics that suggest that Hasselbeck is a poor decision maker you chose to ignore the stats right in front of you. That's a bit one-sided don't you think? If conventional statistics offer easily demonstrateable proof that Big Ben is a poor decision maker, shouldn't you put more faith in what those same stats say about Hasselbeck? Or do you only agree with the conventional stats when they support what the "Football Scientist" has to say?

Is it really that hard to believe that if you dig a bit deeper into the stats that Hasselbeck might be, as well?

Simply put, yes. I watched him put together the most efficient season of his entire career. His decision making was outstanding all year long. Mike Holmgren has echoed the same sentiment. Then again, Holmgren is no "football scientist", so what does he know?

I agree wholeheartedly that Big Ben is a damn good QB. His ypa is ridiculous. He's pretty mobile, very accurate, good outside of the pocket or after he's been hit. He has a lot of strengths. His decision-making isn't one of them. He's a gunslinger, plain and simple. He forces a lot of passes. A lot of them wind up getting intercepted.

I would argue that his decision making ability is outstanding for a 24 year old QB with just two seasons under his belt.And let me ask you this...Is it really a bad decision if it's a throw that said QB can pull off? The John Elway's and Brett Favre's of the NFL were so damn talented that they could throw the ball across their bodies and deliver the ball deep down the field right on the numbers to their WR...With ease. Montana and Marino could thread the ball into seemingly impossible traffic with the best of them. Were those bad decisions? I don't think so.

I don't think that you can label a QB a bad decision maker merely because he's so good that he can get away with breaking certain (or all) of the rules. For instance, one of the plays that goes down as a bad decision in Joyner's view is throwing the ball despite being tackled. Both Big Ben and Hasselbeck are extremely mobile and have the size and strength to get rid of the ball while being tackled. Most of the time they avoid the sack. They occasionally complete the pass, and rarely end up throwing a pick in that situation. Is it right to ding them for that when they clearly have the physical skills to get away with it?

I hate this idea that, just because someone's a great player, then every aspect of their game is great. I have people try to tell me that Terrell Owens is one of the best deep threats in the NFL- which is utter bull. Owens is a mediocre deep threat, and his hands are absolute rubbish. He's just so phenominal after the catch and he's so impossible to disrupt off the line of scrimmage that his strengths far overshine his weaknesses. Terrell Davis was probably the best RB in the NFL over a 3-year span, but he had the worst breakway speed in the league. Barry Sanders was the most dynamic runner I've ever seen, but he was maddeningly inconsistant. Randy Moss has poor work ethic. Marvin Harrison has a horrible ypc because he ducks out of bounds to avoid every single hit. His routes and hands are phenominal, but his physicality leaves a lot to be desired. John Elway and Brett Favre are two of the best QBs in history, but they're gunslingers who force a lot of passes and get their teams in trouble sometimes.

EVERY player has weaknesses- Hasselbeck and Roethlisberger, included. So what if it their weakness happens to be "decision making"?

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a weakness in Walter Jones But seriously, I agree with you that every player is flawed in some way. But when it comes to Hasselbeck, his decision making may just be one of his best assets. As for Big Ben, I'd argue that his biggest weakness is his age and lack of experience not his decision making.

Yes, because the Steelers beat the Seahawks thanks to the stellar play of Big Ben Rooflesberger and the horrible quarterbacking from Matt Hasselbeck "when it really mattered".

How can you criticize the play of Big Ben and Hasselbeck when they played the best football of any QB's in the NFL "when it really mattered" for longer than every other QB in the post-season. You couldn't ask for two better performances than Ben and Hasselbeck put up in the title games.

 

[Sonny Lubick Blowup Doll]

And what do those numbers say about Matt Hasselbeck? Why is it that you failed to put his name in bold? Afterall, Joyner's "research" makes him out to be one of the worst decision makers in the NFL...Lastly, "conventional wisdom" tells me that Big Ben is damn good QB that lead his team to the Super Bowl in just his second year.

I didn't bold Hasselbeck because I didn't have a conventional statistic that declared him a poor decision maker. That wasn't the point. The point was that his "Hass and Big Ben are poor decision makers" point wasn't as ridiculous as you made it out to be- it's easily demonstrateable that Big Ben is a poor decision maker. Is it really that hard to believe that if you dig a bit deeper into the stats that Hasselbeck might be, as well?I agree wholeheartedly that Big Ben is a damn good QB. His ypa is ridiculous. He's pretty mobile, very accurate, good outside of the pocket or after he's been hit. He has a lot of strengths. His decision-making isn't one of them. He's a gunslinger, plain and simple. He forces a lot of passes. A lot of them wind up getting intercepted.I hate this idea that, just because someone's a great player, then every aspect of their game is great. I have people try to tell me that Terrell Owens is one of the best deep threats in the NFL- which is utter bull. Owens is a mediocre deep threat, and his hands are absolute rubbish. He's just so phenominal after the catch and he's so impossible to disrupt off the line of scrimmage that his strengths far overshine his weaknesses. Terrell Davis was probably the best RB in the NFL over a 3-year span, but he had the worst breakway speed in the league. Barry Sanders was the most dynamic runner I've ever seen, but he was maddeningly inconsistant. Randy Moss has poor work ethic. Marvin Harrison has a horrible ypc because he ducks out of bounds to avoid every single hit. His routes and hands are phenominal, but his physicality leaves a lot to be desired. John Elway and Brett Favre are two of the best QBs in history, but they're gunslingers who force a lot of passes and get their teams in trouble sometimes.EVERY player has weaknesses- Hasselbeck and Roethlisberger, included. So what if it their weakness happens to be "decision making"?

Exactly.

 

[Sonny Lubick Blowup Doll]

I love that there are people that realize Owens has crappy hands. I know many do actually, but it always surpises me how many you'll find that argue that...just because he's elite.

 

[Sonny Lubick Blowup Doll]

EVERY player has weaknesses-

Except Steve Smith unless you count drawing 3 defenders to shut you down as a weakness. Just imagine Elway throwing to Smith.

Yet, it still took people longer to realize that. Even now, you could argue he is possibly underrated a bit by some. I mean, if Owens or Moss had the year he had last year, there would be an undisputed #1 WR this year in FF. Not so.Two reasons, I think. His size. And Delhomme. Yet both notions of weaknesses have been dispelled repeatedly. Perfect. I'll take them both.