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Government Response To The Coronavirus (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter James Daulton
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Same here.
My kids haven't had one day of in person instruction in almost a year.
Do we have #s of how many kids or what percent are actually already in school?
Doug B
Footballguy
Very good. In my neck of the woods, the texts from my kids’ schools keep coming all the same.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Any comment on the ethical implications of allowing tens of thousands of people to suffocate to death while they debate this sort of stuff?
Rich Conway
Footballguy
I get that you want it now, but you seem predisposed to think any delay at all is, by definition, unnecessary.
Do you think there is any harm that could come from not doing the analysis? If not doing it won't cause any issues, isn't that an argument that we don't ever need to do this type of analysis?
Personally, I don't know the answer. Certainly, governments do some things that aren't necessary. That said, cutting what is normally a 6+ month process to 3 weeks seems pretty damn impressive. Of course, if it is true that the analysis is just unneeded busy work to begin with, then it's not enough.
crackattack
Footballguy
Real surprised there's no Gov. Cuomo cover up thread. No people calling him a murderer. No people calling for his resignation etc etc. I'm shocked really. I mean he did cause and then hide the deaths of thousands.
dawgtrails
Footballguy
I did. She commented this week on something that the president said in December. She added that the goal was a floor the administration hoped to “build from.”
It obviously isn't a lofty goal, and I hope they update it with new numbers
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Of course. This whole issue is a completely standard, undergraduate STAT 101 tradeoff between Type I error Type II error. I can never remember which is which because statisticians of yore chose the least memorable labels imaginable for these two things, but one is failing to reject a false null hypothesis and the other falsely rejecting a true null hypothesis. In this context, it's the relative harm involved in approving a drug that should have been rejected (e.g. thalidomide) versus rejecting a drug that should have been approved.
Under normal circumstances, it makes a ton of sense to be conservative, move slowly and carefully, and place a high weight on making sure that no "bad" drugs slip through the cracks. The FDA is too systematically conservative for my tastes, but it's not totally unreasonable.
But of course these aren't normal circumstances. We have people dying by thousands every single day, and many other people are living with long-term medical consequences of covid that we don't even fully understand. If you're even remotely rational, that should affect how you approach this tradeoff. The cost of approving a "bad" vaccine is still more or less whatever it was before, but the cost of delay is way, way, WAY higher.
And to be clear, nobody actually thinks that any of the covid vaccines are thalidomide. At this point, we already know that they're safe-ish. They don't regularly cause people to go into convulsions after injection. They don't turn people blind or deaf. They don't cause people to turn into werewolves at the next full moon. What the FDA is debating isn't so much whether these are dangerous at this point, but how well they work. The downside of approving a vaccine that doesn't do much one way or the other is pretty miniscule compared to letting people suffocate to death. If policy-makers don't realize that, they should be in a different line of work.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
.
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Rich Conway
Footballguy
My own personal answer is that I don't know nearly enough about the vaccines to know. Admittedly, I have that luxury because I'm nowhere near the top (or likely even middle) of the eligibility list.
FairWarning
Footballguy
I’m not surprised, haven’t seen one on any of the forums I post at. I guess it didn’t really happen.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
She didnt just comment on it. She stripped it down to something that is already accomplished. Saying it isnt lofty is a weird way to describe it.
It isnt even a goal. We already have over 60%.
Had they made it full time in school that would actually be a goal. It would still be weak, but it would be something we arent already doing.
Bringing up december is just smokescreen.
FairWarning
Footballguy
Maybe someone from the left can explain the Cuomo deal. If “reputable” news sources like CNN sweep it under the rug, then what?
CNN can hate the right and report about Cuomos story also. It’s not either-or.
CNN can hate the right and report about Cuomos story also. It’s not either-or.
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sho nuff
Footballguy
Can you unpack what part of the story you are referring to? His aide's call? Part of it is that Cuomo has refused to talk about it.
But yeah, they should be criticized and punished for hiding numbers. I get they feared what people would do with that and how it would be used against them (both by the DOJ and political opponents)...but its information the public should know.
rockaction
Footballguy
I don't care whether the governor has a D or R in front of his or her name. If what is alleged is true, that calls for more than mere criticism and punishment after a "But yeah..."
The whole thing reeks of serious civil and possibly criminal malfeasance.
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IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Cuomo benefitted tremendously from having Bill DeBlasio (terrible) and Trump (terrible) as foils. And also having a brother at CNN to provide favorable coverage. Sometimes people luck out that way.
Edit: For the purposes of full disclosure, I fell for this act too back in the spring. That was before mainstream covid coverage got hyper-political with it's "NY is great and FL is awful" thing. Fortunately I was able to unhitch myself from this particular train pretty early on.
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rockaction
Footballguy
Trump's incompetence made Cuomo look like a savior in that while he was hiding all of these deaths he was at least taking it seriously. Probably because he knew of all the deaths he was subsequently hiding.
Anyway, enough of this. My parents get their second shots this week and I'm happy about it. It's getting to be time to move on to those of us with secondary conditions. I desperately want the shot. No refusal here. Sign me up as quick as you please, thank you.
This is amazing. You have to scroll halfway down their webpage to see one story about Cuomo hiding the nursing home deaths.
https://www.cnn.com/
And people say the media isnt biased or doesn't "brainwash" people.
sho nuff
Footballguy
Which is why I am asking what are people alleging. There are a few stories out there. One is that they withheld numbers...yes, that is worthy of criticism and punishment. Not sure what more there is...I don't find hiding numbers as a criminal complaint. If there is more...post it.
Not everyone is reading the goings on of Cuomo and NY.
crackattack
Footballguy
If this was the Trump administration hiding stats, there would be 3 different threads on it. Bof sidz!
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
I dunno, man. I'd have to go back and check sho's posting history. Maybe he was one of those people who always extended a gloved hand of charity toward Trump and regularly gives Republicans the benefit of the doubt.
sho nuff
Footballguy
Or maybe...just maybe...I pay attention more to POTUS than a governor of a State I don't live in...and the story is still pretty fresh where the call made by the aide is just coming out?
And I have already said it should be criticized and punished?
And what is stopping any number of you all from a thread or discussing this? But yes, lets make it about sho.
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HellToupee
Footballguy
The missing Cuomo thread here would be gold. The boys love him, they loved him in that thread
MTskibum
Footballguy
Not only was a doctor fired for doing the right thing, our stupid local district attorney was trying to charge the doctor with crimes and even tried to bring this case before a grand jury.
I apologize if this has been posted before, I do not read this thread and this was in the local news today.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/10/us/houston-doctor-fired-covid-vaccine.html
The Texas doctor had six hours. Now that a vial of Covid-19 vaccine had been opened on this late December night, he had to find 10 eligible people for its remaining doses before the precious medicine expired. In six hours.
Scrambling, the doctor made house calls and directed people to his home outside Houston. Some were acquaintances; others, strangers. A bed-bound nonagenarian. A woman in her 80s with dementia. A mother with a child who uses a ventilator.
After midnight, and with just minutes before the vaccine became unusable, the doctor, Hasan Gokal, gave the last dose to his wife, who has a pulmonary disease that leaves her short of breath.
For his actions, Dr. Gokal was fired from his government job and then charged with stealing 10 vaccine doses worth a total of $135 — a shun-worthy misdemeanor that sent his name and mug shot rocketing around the globe.
I apologize if this has been posted before, I do not read this thread and this was in the local news today.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/10/us/houston-doctor-fired-covid-vaccine.html
The Texas doctor had six hours. Now that a vial of Covid-19 vaccine had been opened on this late December night, he had to find 10 eligible people for its remaining doses before the precious medicine expired. In six hours.
Scrambling, the doctor made house calls and directed people to his home outside Houston. Some were acquaintances; others, strangers. A bed-bound nonagenarian. A woman in her 80s with dementia. A mother with a child who uses a ventilator.
After midnight, and with just minutes before the vaccine became unusable, the doctor, Hasan Gokal, gave the last dose to his wife, who has a pulmonary disease that leaves her short of breath.
For his actions, Dr. Gokal was fired from his government job and then charged with stealing 10 vaccine doses worth a total of $135 — a shun-worthy misdemeanor that sent his name and mug shot rocketing around the globe.
FairWarning
Footballguy
I looked on google and cnn wasn’t worthy of a 1st page mention when they are one of the 1st two sources on most anything.jobarules said:
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Rebekah Jones, who is basically a grifter, accused Desantis of lying about numbers and gets treated like a hero and the media takes her word for it.
This is about as ironclad as you can get for proof and its a blip.
The Z Machine
Footballguy
I asked her that yesterday. The repsonse from my wife (who was also on the chat) was this:IvanKaramazov said:
"One of the big problems with not doing all the sub-group analyses is that we don't know what we don't know. So you don't want to find out that the vax isn't working in male smokers under 40 in 3-6 months when their morbidity and mortality rates overtake 65+. And it may not seem ethical to the 65+ BUT there is a whole field of bioethicists who have studied this a long time. You cannot endanger one group to benefit another without a really good reason and "we can't wait 3 weeks" isn't good enough. Esp. because (PhD neuroscientist) has pointed out we already have 2 viable vax for the group at greatest risk of death. It's not a zero sum game."
"PLUS, if the concern is supply (approve this so we have more options), then deal with pipeline, manufacturing, distribution and implementation. Rushing the FDA won't help as much as improving vax distribution"
I said that it feels like the approval is a foregone conclusion, and any delays cause more death and more spread. She replied:
"How big (plus or minus) do you think the scandal would be if they just approved it without full review and something happened? Or anti-vaxxers got a hold of the process and called foul?"
I said it might be a smaller problem than people more people dying. She replied:
"DUDE NPIs KEEP PEOPLE FROM DYING. I don't see you picketing Gov. Hogan's house asking for more restrictions. FFS, a widget isn't going to fix the whole problem."
At that point I told her not to yell at me.
"I'm yelling because we have covered-at length-that the FDA piece isn't the biggest issue here, whether your concern is vax availability or actual mortality. Incidentally, where's the outrage about the US pre-buying so much vax that most non HICs can't have any regardless of approval processes? Let me rephrase: what are you most concerned about vax availability, mortality or FDA being a bureaucratic bottleneck?"
I said, I was most concerned with mortality stemming from things that are (even somewhat) in our control from a policy and bureaucracy standpoint.
Wife Reply: "OK, then worry about NPIs and the vax distributions system. More supply won't help if the system can't actually deliver it. FDA approval process isn't the biggest challenge. It is not ideal that the pandemic hit when we're at an all-time high for ##### nationalistic pigs as country leaders."
So there you have it folks! I love my wife. She's smart as hell and has a mouth like a sailor and doesn't hold back her opinions.
The Z Machine
Footballguy
Grace Under Pressure
Footballguy
Rebekah Jones is an interesting character. There does seem to be something off with her, even if there were irregularities in FL's reporting, which IIRC were changes to how they were posting numbers along the way (which many states have done).
Grace Under Pressure
Footballguy
While I may not agree with all of those arguments, they are valid points made passionately. Pretty impressive Z.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
the really amazing this too is that if they'll lie to hide stats .... why isn't it possible they're lying to hide stats the OTHER way and make this seem worse than it is /crackattack said:
once you've established they lie - there are no ends to their lying
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
She has raised hundreds of thousands of dollars via two gofundme pages and now is raising money through another venture all based on the perception that she is some heroic whistleblower. .
sho nuff
Footballguy
And seems, as with many topics, easier to complain that nobody is talking about it. Or complain about someone else's opinion of it..than actually discussing the topic.
"Why would hospitals lie to claim every death is COVID?"
If the governor lies, why cant hospitals?
The Z Machine
Footballguy
Unlikely that the governor lying in press conferences is felony fraud, but it's possible. Very likely that hospital admins lying to Medicare and CDC is a felony.
(not a lawyer)
If Cuomo lied and covered up things that he knew were incorrect for political reasons, he should be held to account. Whether that's through criminal, civil, or political actions is TBD.
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IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
But the three week delay does more than simply endanger one group -- it literally kills people. We are killing people because we're worried about the hypothetical possibility that some unknown group might benefit from a particular vaccine more than some other hypothetical group.
"It's not ethical to put people at risk without a really good reason" is an argument for hurrying up, not an argument for hair-splitting.
sho nuff
Footballguy
Thus far the story isn't even that they undercounted overall deaths. Its that they counted only death in nursing homes one way and those out of the facility another. Correct? That they are now correcting nursing home deaths including those who died outside of the facility?
sho nuff
Footballguy
Yes...I get that.
And Im not defending the actions. There should be repercussions Thus far, not sure it amounts to a criminal complaint or not. If so...go ahead and go after him.
The point was it does not compare to the baseless claims that hospitals are over reporting as Covid cases/lying about it that was made.
This is a little excessive. Many states are having trouble administering the quantity of vaccine they have now. Are any states currently complaining about not having enough? I don't even know. But I don't know that giving them a bunch more, from the same or different vendors, will make that much of a difference.
sho nuff
Footballguy
However...bringing in one that is one does vs. the others that require two. 2 requires the personnel and time like the others. But you get through half as many overall vaccinated than if you get the 1 dose vaccination approved.
The Commish
Footballguy
It's easy to shoot the messenger in this one, I get it. However, she was correct. We've had news story after news story here about the groups reporting their numbers to the state only to follow up and ask why the number they were reporting wasn't being reflected correctly. Those JUST stopped happening at the beginning of the year...haven't seen one in 3-4 weeks now.
sho nuff
Footballguy
Yeah...J&J is a single dose. Not as highly effective as the others. But still quite good and with a single dose would get us better protected it seems.
NY has been complaining about not having enough vaccine supply for weeks now. Theyve even had to shut down some facilities.
Well, to be fair, the other vaccines start working after the first dose. They just don't reach their full potential until the second.
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