Greg Little hype train (1 Viewer)

[wiscstlatlmia]

over/under for me is at 900 yards. I'll take the over

 

[moderated]

But Little averaged 4.1 YAC per reception last year, which was tied for #68 among those 115 WRs. What difference does it make if he eludes or breaks tackles if it doesn't result in a lot more yards?

When your QB often doesn't lead you with the pass it makes YAC more difficult to come by.

This Colt McCoy excuse is getting old.I'm not sure on the YAC stats...but Josh Cribbs, Mohammed Massaquoi, and Jordan Norwood all posted better YPC than Greg Little and were WRs.7 other skill players (with over 10 receptions so we can base it on something) had a better catch % than Greg Little's 50.8. The only players Greg Little beat were Massaquoi and Alex Smith. Beating 2/9 players on your team is catch % doesn't make you the next big thing IMO.

Little's routes were all short where there were multiple defenders within a few yards of him, he didn't even really know how to play Wr last year.He was one of the rawest Wr's to ever enter the league, yet was drafted fairly high and exceeded all expectations his first year.He could end up a bust, but to discredit a guy who was just learning to play Wr and was completely out of football in 2010 is a bit odd.This year will be telling, I really didn't even expect him to play more then a few plays a game last year and he ended up his teams top WR.Most nfl Wr's have played the position for years before entering the NFL, give the guy some time to learn the position.

 

[r3t2]

But Little averaged 4.1 YAC per reception last year, which was tied for #68 among those 115 WRs. What difference does it make if he eludes or breaks tackles if it doesn't result in a lot more yards?

When your QB often doesn't lead you with the pass it makes YAC more difficult to come by.

This Colt McCoy excuse is getting old.I'm not sure on the YAC stats...but Josh Cribbs, Mohammed Massaquoi, and Jordan Norwood all posted better YPC than Greg Little and were WRs.7 other skill players (with over 10 receptions so we can base it on something) had a better catch % than Greg Little's 50.8. The only players Greg Little beat were Massaquoi and Alex Smith. Beating 2/9 players on your team is catch % doesn't make you the next big thing IMO.

after all this discussion, i am curious why little is on your dynasty team. you had to have taken him in the top 6 more than likely. what exactly did you expect from him given the array of circumstance he was playing under?

 

[Zimm]

over/under for me is at 900 yards. I'll take the over

I'll take the over as well!

 

[DansRams]

Over and Over in this thread you discredit people if they don't agree with you. I don't understand that.

I can go on forever on this thread, but bottom line, he had every single excuse in the book to fail last year and yet he turned in what I believe to be a very promising rookie season. If all you see on PFF is red numbers next to his stats then I'm going to leave it at that.

PFF has a rating system and they don't agree with what you see so you discredit them.

I was expecting to find a lot of dirt on Little when I was doing my research on him, simply because everyone threw the "off the field" comment at him so frequently. Matt Waldman in particular was very critical of Little's character and while I respect Matt's hard work, I saw something completely different. There was definitely some growing up to do, but Little's amazing interviews were what really convinced me.

Matt Waldman was critical of Greg Little and you don't agree so you discredit him.

So I took him ahead of Mark Ingram in one league and heard all the #### talking for a while but it didn't matter b/c I believed in the guy. One year later he's got a nice rookie season under his belt and he's off to a great start this offseason. I'm all in on Little.

Now this makes sense why you've been going almost blind in this thread as Greg Little is the next stud WR. I own Greg Little as well, but being critical/debating brings out more facts and helps bring a better consensus. Discrediting everyone that doesn't agree with you is immature. Help this discussion rather than hurt it.

 

[DansRams]

I case some havent seen this

(On how Greg Little’s leaner physical appearance is translating on the field)- "I’ve seen him look a lot quicker, a lot more sudden and I think to this point he has caught the ball at a much more consistent rate and he just looks like a different guy to me. A guy that’s been through it once and to his credit, and again let’s not tell him I said this, but to his credit he has done a really nice job of getting his body into the right kind of shape he needs to be in to be a receiver in this league."(On if Little was encouraged by the organization to be in better shape)- "Greg and I, we spoke often throughout the year and of course just trying to counsel him on how to be a pro and part of it is taking care of your body. I think he did reshape his body in some ways and it’s a credit to him."(On how much of Little’s transition to the NFL was delayed because he did not have a senior season at UNC)- "That may have delayed it some. I think he also did not have a traditional offseason. He got hit with a double-whammy, so to speak. I know he worked out extremely hard on his own, but it’s hard to get the same kind of work that you get when you are here working with the guys."(On if he knew Little would need extra care when he was drafted)- "I think when you look at his history and the reason why he didn’t play his senior year, we obviously wanted to take that into account when we drafted him. We feel like he’s got skill and ability and we want to work with him. Just like I’ve talked you about numerous times, I’ve talked to Greg quite frequently. When you coach him he is very coachable. You can whisper at him or yell at him. It’s not his first rodeo, he’s been coached before, and he takes it and I think he has been listening. When I had my exit interview with him in January, I basically told him that he needed to do everything he can in this offseason to make a huge jump for his second year. I think he’s got a good start on that."(On how good he thinks Little can be)- "I don’t know. We drafted him with the idea that he could be a starter in this league and be very productive."(On if Little has already done that)- "He has already done that, but I think we can all agree and he would be the first one to tell you that he needs to be more consistent. I think that being in better shape, having a better understanding of what he has to do, that will help him with that consistency. A lot of these guys can do it once, the key is over the grind of the season, being able to do it over and over and over consistently well. I think that’s what him being in better shape will give him a chance to do."(On what Little did to improve himself)- "I know he worked on his nutrition and weight lifting. He’s always been a guy that’s kind of a very dense guy that’s got a lot of muscle tone."(On what a receiver can to do to improve dropping the ball)- "You work on the fundamentals of catching the football. We try to avoid saying, when a ball is dropped, ‘Hey, catch the ball.’ It’s about focusing on a small point, it’s about your eyes and your fingers and catching the tip and all of those things. We have an increased number of drills that we do and I think you’ll find in coaching and teaching that you get what you emphasize and we’ve emphasized it a great deal. He’s (Little) embraced working at it and we’re hopeful it will show up that way once we start playing for real."(On evaluating Little’s hands)- "I think he has very good hands. I think he’s got NFL hands."(On if it is a little more complicated than just the fundamentals of catching a football)- "Most skills in football are a little more complicated than just saying, ‘Hey, block the guy,’ or ‘Hey, catch the ball,’ and those are the things we try to zero in on when we coach players, to hit them on the details and the fine points of it."(On what catching the tip means)- "When the ball spins at you, what you see is the tip and so then you try to catch the tip."

 

[NJ]

7 other skill players (with over 10 receptions so we can base it on something) had a better catch % than Greg Little's 50.8. The only players Greg Little beat were Massaquoi and Alex Smith. Beating 2/9 players on your team is catch % doesn't make you the next big thing IMO.

I'm not sure that catch % relative to teammates means anything as there is so much that can affect this stat, for example, of the 9 guys with 10+receptions on Arizona, Fitz only had a better catch % than two of them and on Atlanta Roddy White had the worst catch % of the 9 guys that had 10+ receptions. PFF actually has a better stat called "Drop Rate" which only factors in catchable balls and Fitz is amongst the best in that while Roddy White was amongst the worst.In looking at the PFF stats on Drop %, I'm not even sure that this is something that is consistent from year to year amongst WRs. i.e. is it just a fluke season to season or are some guys plagued by drops their whole career? It seems like for the majority of WRs a season of the "dropsies" is more likely just a fluke. Their "drop %" shows that only 1 WR in the bottom 15 (highest drop % in the league) from 2010 was also in the bottom in 2011, that was Brandon Marshall who had 13 drops in 2010 and 14 in 2011. Marshall seems to be the only guy on the list every year. Every other name on the list is different from year to year. Likewise, amongst the best in the league, only Fitz and Deion Branch made the top 10 in both 2010 and 2011. In fact, its so volatile a stat you actually had 2 guys (Jordy Nelson and Steve Breaston) who were in the bottom 10 in the league in Drop Rate in 2010 that were in the top 10 in 2011. Nelson went from dropping 14.29% of his catchable balls in 2010 (11 out of 66) to dropping only 2.86% of his catchable balls in 2011 (2 out of 70). So I don't think Greg Little is somehow damned to a 50% catch rate for all eternity. In fact, people arguing against a Jordy Nelson breakout prior to 2011 could have said the same things about his 2010 season (drops too many passes, only 2 TDs on 45 receptions, etc.) as people are currently saying about Greg Little right now.

 

[benson_will_lead_the_way]

But Little averaged 4.1 YAC per reception last year, which was tied for #68 among those 115 WRs. What difference does it make if he eludes or breaks tackles if it doesn't result in a lot more yards?

When your QB often doesn't lead you with the pass it makes YAC more difficult to come by.

This Colt McCoy excuse is getting old.I'm not sure on the YAC stats...but Josh Cribbs, Mohammed Massaquoi, and Jordan Norwood all posted better YPC than Greg Little and were WRs.7 other skill players (with over 10 receptions so we can base it on something) had a better catch % than Greg Little's 50.8. The only players Greg Little beat were Massaquoi and Alex Smith. Beating 2/9 players on your team is catch % doesn't make you the next big thing IMO.

after all this discussion, i am curious why little is on your dynasty team. you had to have taken him in the top 6 more than likely. what exactly did you expect from him given the array of circumstance he was playing under?

I had a lot of first round rookie picks, so you have to take someone. I also took Ryan Williams, even though I wasn't crazy about him.I expected Little to be quicker, more explosive, and be more of a playmaker.

 

[benson_will_lead_the_way]

7 other skill players (with over 10 receptions so we can base it on something) had a better catch % than Greg Little's 50.8. The only players Greg Little beat were Massaquoi and Alex Smith. Beating 2/9 players on your team is catch % doesn't make you the next big thing IMO.

I'm not sure that catch % relative to teammates means anything as there is so much that can affect this stat, for example, of the 9 guys with 10+receptions on Arizona, Fitz only had a better catch % than two of them and on Atlanta Roddy White had the worst catch % of the 9 guys that had 10+ receptions. PFF actually has a better stat called "Drop Rate" which only factors in catchable balls and Fitz is amongst the best in that while Roddy White was amongst the worst.In looking at the PFF stats on Drop %, I'm not even sure that this is something that is consistent from year to year amongst WRs. i.e. is it just a fluke season to season or are some guys plagued by drops their whole career? It seems like for the majority of WRs a season of the "dropsies" is more likely just a fluke. Their "drop %" shows that only 1 WR in the bottom 15 (highest drop % in the league) from 2010 was also in the bottom in 2011, that was Brandon Marshall who had 13 drops in 2010 and 14 in 2011. Marshall seems to be the only guy on the list every year. Every other name on the list is different from year to year. Likewise, amongst the best in the league, only Fitz and Deion Branch made the top 10 in both 2010 and 2011. In fact, its so volatile a stat you actually had 2 guys (Jordy Nelson and Steve Breaston) who were in the bottom 10 in the league in Drop Rate in 2010 that were in the top 10 in 2011. Nelson went from dropping 14.29% of his catchable balls in 2010 (11 out of 66) to dropping only 2.86% of his catchable balls in 2011 (2 out of 70). So I don't think Greg Little is somehow damned to a 50% catch rate for all eternity. In fact, people arguing against a Jordy Nelson breakout prior to 2011 could have said the same things about his 2010 season (drops too many passes, only 2 TDs on 45 receptions, etc.) as people are currently saying about Greg Little right now.

Fair enough and thanks for bringing up solid stats in a debate(more people should do this). I only brought it up in the context that it was Colt McCoy that was holding Little back.How do you like PFF? Is it worth the $$$?

 

[Tau837]

Just to continue with the PFF theme, among those 115 WRs who played at least 25% of their teams' offensive snaps last year, PFF rated Little as follows:

#114 overall, the second worst WR, ahead of only Legedu Naanee.

#115 receiving, the absolute worst.

Tied for #91 in blocking.

Combine that with his past character/off field issues and his lack of experience at WR, which puts him behind at his own position, and I'm really not getting all the positive hype.

What criteria do they use to get those rankings?

Not sure if this should all be pasted here, so here is the link: http://www.profootballfocus.com/about/grading/

 

[Tau837]

I can go on forever on this thread, but bottom line, he had every single excuse in the book to fail last year and yet he turned in what I believe to be a very promising rookie season. If all you see on PFF is red numbers next to his stats then I'm going to leave it at that.

But I do want to address this "off the field issue" that you guys throw around way too nonchalantly in Little's direction. I'll admit, I had my concerns about him last year when I heard he was suspended. But let's not give him that same label that was given to guys like Pacman, Burress, Tank Johnson, Chris Henry, Kenny Britt etc.

I was expecting to find a lot of dirt on Little when I was doing my research on him, simply because everyone threw the "off the field" comment at him so frequently. Matt Waldman in particular was very critical of Little's character and while I respect Matt's hard work, I saw something completely different. There was definitely some growing up to do, but Little's amazing interviews were what really convinced me.

This guy speaks very intelligently, has a nice touch of humility, and God forbid, sometimes pauses to think about a question before answering it. But what impressed me most about Little was the fact that he was accountable. I ####### LOVED that. I was expecting to hear excuses, or the typical 21 year old "I'm sorry I won't do it again," nonsense ala Justin Blackmon, or maybe even avoid questions about his suspension. Dude was answering questions like a grown ### man and all of it came across as 100% authentic. Little didn't just prove me wrong, he honestly won me over to the point where I knew this guy would succeed. After watching his interviews I believed every single word his coaches said about his intelligence and work ethic. So I took him ahead of Mark Ingram in one league and heard all the #### talking for a while but it didn't matter b/c I believed in the guy. One year later he's got a nice rookie season under his belt and he's off to a great start this offseason. I'm all in on Little.

Here's the video I was talking about:

You must have a low bar if you think this linked interview shows something impressive. Especially given this is a player who has almost certainly been coached by his agent (and whoever they brought in) on handling the media, specifically with regard to this situation.To me, this is standard fare. I certainly wouldn't take it as any kind of evidence that he is primed to break out any time soon.

 

[Tau837]

But Little averaged 4.1 YAC per reception last year, which was tied for #68 among those 115 WRs. What difference does it make if he eludes or breaks tackles if it doesn't result in a lot more yards?

When your QB often doesn't lead you with the pass it makes YAC more difficult to come by.

So what does the data prove then? Why are you so excited about it?

 

[Tau837]

Just to continue with the PFF theme, among those 115 WRs who played at least 25% of their teams' offensive snaps last year, PFF rated Little as follows:

#114 overall, the second worst WR, ahead of only Legedu Naanee.

#115 receiving, the absolute worst.

Tied for #91 in blocking.

Combine that with his past character/off field issues and his lack of experience at WR, which puts him behind at his own position, and I'm really not getting all the positive hype.

Can you link to that article?

This is premium data, but here is the link: https://www.profootballfocus.com/data/by_position.php?tab=by_position&season=2011&pos=WR&stype=r&runpass=pass&teamid=-1&numsnaps=0&numgames=1.

 

[Tau837]

over/under for me is at 900 yards. I'll take the over

I'll take the over as well!

I'll take the under.

 

[Tau837]

How do you like PFF? Is it worth the $$$?

You didn't direct this to me, but I like it. I got hooked on it when it was free, then didn't use it for the first year or so that it was not free. I recently paid for a subscription, and I like having the data, so I think it is worth it so far.

 

[NJ]

I only brought it up in the context that it was Colt McCoy that was holding Little back.

I think McCoy's awful play factors heavily into Little's low catch % not his drop % because so many of the balls thrown his way were "uncatchable". Only 75 of the 120 targets were deemed catchable for Little. For example, even if Little had been amongst the best drop % in the league (say he only dropped 4 balls all year), he still would have had a catch % only around 59% because he would have caught only 71 of the 120 targets. That said, the drops are on Greg Little, he dropped 14 and I assume that's not due to McCoy's crappy play, now whether the drops were due to concentration or because he has stone hands remains to be seen, but I'm of course hoping its concentration and he improves on that % going forward. The one thing a little disturbing about the drops is that he ran mostly short routes and you'd expect that to result in less dropped passes, but actually Welker was amongst the 10 worst in 2010 so I'm not even sure thats an accurate expectation either. Ironically, they actually noted in the article that Braylon Edwards who like Little also had a reputation for dropping passes in Cleveland, was amongst the leagues best in 2010 with the Jets dropping only 4 of 66 balls after dropping 19 in 2008!

How do you like PFF? Is it worth the $$$

I don't know, I don't pay for it, I was just googling for stats on dropped passes and found the following really good (seemingly free) articles on the subject which really made me start to question whether drops are something that can actually be predicted year to year. Seems like unless your name is Brandon Marshall, its pretty random.PFF 2010 Drop Rate

PFF 2011 Drop Rate

These articles were so good they were actually making me wonder if it is worth the $30 myself. Looks like they've got some really good stuff there more than worth the money but I'm usually already on information overload from all the stuff FBG puts out I can't imagine trying to keep up with another site.

 

[sspunisher]

Over and Over in this thread you discredit people if they don't agree with you. I don't understand that.

I can go on forever on this thread, but bottom line, he had every single excuse in the book to fail last year and yet he turned in what I believe to be a very promising rookie season. If all you see on PFF is red numbers next to his stats then I'm going to leave it at that.

PFF has a rating system and they don't agree with what you see so you discredit them.

I was expecting to find a lot of dirt on Little when I was doing my research on him, simply because everyone threw the "off the field" comment at him so frequently. Matt Waldman in particular was very critical of Little's character and while I respect Matt's hard work, I saw something completely different. There was definitely some growing up to do, but Little's amazing interviews were what really convinced me.

Matt Waldman was critical of Greg Little and you don't agree so you discredit him.

So I took him ahead of Mark Ingram in one league and heard all the #### talking for a while but it didn't matter b/c I believed in the guy. One year later he's got a nice rookie season under his belt and he's off to a great start this offseason. I'm all in on Little.

Now this makes sense why you've been going almost blind in this thread as Greg Little is the next stud WR. I own Greg Little as well, but being critical/debating brings out more facts and helps bring a better consensus. Discrediting everyone that doesn't agree with you is immature. Help this discussion rather than hurt it.

Discredit? Stop with the garbage already, man. Why would I be discrediting a website that I clearly referenced in an earlier post? I was talking about the inability to turn simple data on a website into meaningful information. If all you see from the data on PFF is that Greg Little was the 2nd worst WR in football and only better than Naanee, then like I said, I'm going to leave it at that.You quoted my exact words regarding Waldman so I'm not sure how in the hell you turned my disagreeing with Waldman into my discrediting him. I'll leave that one alone, too.And for the record, I'm not high on Little becaue I drafted him. I drafted Little because I was high on him.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

...Little absolutely blows them out of the water with his YAC RUNNING AFTER THE CATCH ability. I'll go as far as saying he's already one of the best WRs in the league after he catches the ball.

Actually I'm not going overboard at all, but it was my mistake for saying YAC (YARDS after the catch), what I really meant was RAC (RUN after the catch). I'll fix my original post.

As for the difference between the two...the YAC stats you posted are literally the yards they get after they catch the ball, a long bomb or a pass in stride up the seam doesn't really tell the whole story about a player's physical running ability. RAC on the other hand is avoiding and shedding tackles: A combination of speed, elusiveness, lateral agility, balance, power, etc, and this is where Little blows Green and Julio away (although Julio is much closer to Little than Green is). This isn't really disputable IMO, Little used to play running back in North Carolina and it's so obvious when the ball is in his hands. The Browns even used him quite a few times as an RB last year.

Some stats:

Greg Little:

Receptions: 61

Broken/Missed Tackles: 17

Broken/Missed Tackle Rate: 28%

Julio Jones

Receptions: 54

Broken/Missed Tackles: 12

Broken/Missed Tackle Rate: 22%

AJ Green

Receptions: 65

Broken/Missed Tackles: 2

Broken/Missed Tackle Rate: 3%

28% is extremely high. Not only did Little lead all WRs in the league, but he wasn't so far away from some pretty physical RBs:

Broken/Missed Tackles for a few RBs

Michael Turner: 62 (league high)

Marshawn Lynch: 52 (#2 in the league, to give some perspective).

...

Chris Johnson: 29

Frank Gore: 26

Arian Foster: 25

Steven Jackson: 23

Michael Bush: 19

Ray Rice: 17

I can't stress how impressive this is. These RB all had well over 250+ carries (receptions weren't included) and yet Little's mere 61 receptions sneak him at the end of this list. Like I said, I'm higher on Little than most, but I did my homework on him and kept up with him and the sorry Browns all last year. Not only is he for real, but he's going to pass a lot of people's expectations.

According to Pro Football Focus, there were 115 WRs who played 25% or more of their teams' offensive snaps last year. Among those, Little was #1 with 17 "missed tackles" (tackles either broken or avoided). That sounds good, and that's what you seem to be so excited about, right?But Little averaged 4.1 YAC per reception last year, which was tied for #68 among those 115 WRs. What difference does it make if he eludes or breaks tackles if it doesn't result in a lot more yards?

I'm not seeing this as the big positive you are.

This is what I was saying, thanks for posting these.

benson: do you notice the big difference between your approach and his? he actually argues using facts. food for thought - might be worth trying it.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

But Little averaged 4.1 YAC per reception last year, which was tied for #68 among those 115 WRs. What difference does it make if he eludes or breaks tackles if it doesn't result in a lot more yards?

When your QB often doesn't lead you with the pass it makes YAC more difficult to come by.

This Colt McCoy excuse is getting old.I'm not sure on the YAC stats...but Josh Cribbs, Mohammed Massaquoi, and Jordan Norwood all posted better YPC than Greg Little and were WRs.7 other skill players (with over 10 receptions so we can base it on something) had a better catch % than Greg Little's 50.8. The only players Greg Little beat were Massaquoi and Alex Smith. Beating 2/9 players on your team is catch % doesn't make you the next big thing IMO.

after all this discussion, i am curious why little is on your dynasty team. you had to have taken him in the top 6 more than likely. what exactly did you expect from him given the array of circumstance he was playing under?

He's probably making it up in an attempt to bolster his credibility.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

Random question for Greg Little disciples: who was typically covered by an opposing defense's #1 DB last year? Was it Little? Or someone else?

[note: I have no idea what the answer is....very interested though]

 

[r3t2]

But Little averaged 4.1 YAC per reception last year, which was tied for #68 among those 115 WRs. What difference does it make if he eludes or breaks tackles if it doesn't result in a lot more yards?

When your QB often doesn't lead you with the pass it makes YAC more difficult to come by.

This Colt McCoy excuse is getting old.I'm not sure on the YAC stats...but Josh Cribbs, Mohammed Massaquoi, and Jordan Norwood all posted better YPC than Greg Little and were WRs.7 other skill players (with over 10 receptions so we can base it on something) had a better catch % than Greg Little's 50.8. The only players Greg Little beat were Massaquoi and Alex Smith. Beating 2/9 players on your team is catch % doesn't make you the next big thing IMO.

after all this discussion, i am curious why little is on your dynasty team. you had to have taken him in the top 6 more than likely. what exactly did you expect from him given the array of circumstance he was playing under?

I had a lot of first round rookie picks, so you have to take someone. I also took Ryan Williams, even though I wasn't crazy about him.I expected Little to be quicker, more explosive, and be more of a playmaker.

even as a rookie in a relatively new position after having taken a year off? i am curious if you (or anyone posting here who is not high on little) saw antonio brown, victor cruz, or jordy nelson coming last year. or stevie johnson, brandon lloyd, mike wallace, tampa mike in 2010. it's really easy to trumpet someone after he does something in the league. almost every single player has a weakness that you can build a negative case around, but to me the interesting thing about the perceived weaknesses are why they occur, not THAT they occur. players are not supposed to come into the league as finished products. if a player is thinking on the field it is very easy to believe it would lead to drops, hesitation, inconsistency. if you're not sure what to do there is almost no chance you'll be explosive, quick, and make plays. it isn't necessarily an indication he does not possess these traits but rather he did not demonstrate them because of temporary conditions. he certainly looked explosive at carolina, and i will only bail on him in cleveland after i see him play for 3 full seasons. ultimately you may be right, but i think it will be for the wrong reasons until he has a chance to fully learn how to play the position. the draft pundits thought he was extremely athletic and gifted. it's foolish to think that went away in a matter of months.

 

[MAC_32]

But Little averaged 4.1 YAC per reception last year, which was tied for #68 among those 115 WRs. What difference does it make if he eludes or breaks tackles if it doesn't result in a lot more yards?

When your QB often doesn't lead you with the pass it makes YAC more difficult to come by.

This Colt McCoy excuse is getting old.I'm not sure on the YAC stats...but Josh Cribbs, Mohammed Massaquoi, and Jordan Norwood all posted better YPC than Greg Little and were WRs.7 other skill players (with over 10 receptions so we can base it on something) had a better catch % than Greg Little's 50.8. The only players Greg Little beat were Massaquoi and Alex Smith. Beating 2/9 players on your team is catch % doesn't make you the next big thing IMO.

You're arguing catch % and YPC, I'm offering a reason why his YAC doesn't match his skill set. Apples and oranges.

 

[MAC_32]

But Little averaged 4.1 YAC per reception last year, which was tied for #68 among those 115 WRs. What difference does it make if he eludes or breaks tackles if it doesn't result in a lot more yards?

When your QB often doesn't lead you with the pass it makes YAC more difficult to come by.

So what does the data prove then? Why are you so excited about it?

I don't think this data set proves anything. Not all data sets do. It's certainly something to store away in my memory bank, but I look at his YAC and then remember his plays from last year and I see how it could've been lower than it should've been.I know everyone wants to come to a conclusion on Little, but there won't be one. At least anything close to a consensus. Think my first post in the thread summarized it best, evaluating Little this off season is all about risk tolerance and how you feel about similarly ranked WR's. People trying to analyze his 2011 stats and translate them to future production are kidding themselves. This isn't a 2nd year player that's been playing WR his whole life, to properly evaluate him you're making a calculated gamble on his development. If he plays like he did in 2011 then he will top out as a #2 WR and would be better served as a role player/#3 WR type which is uninteresting bye week/injury filler in fantasy leagues. If he learns how to run routes and stop thinking on the field so much he has the physical ability to be a good #1 WR.Heads or tails?

 

[benson_will_lead_the_way]

But Little averaged 4.1 YAC per reception last year, which was tied for #68 among those 115 WRs. What difference does it make if he eludes or breaks tackles if it doesn't result in a lot more yards?

When your QB often doesn't lead you with the pass it makes YAC more difficult to come by.

This Colt McCoy excuse is getting old.I'm not sure on the YAC stats...but Josh Cribbs, Mohammed Massaquoi, and Jordan Norwood all posted better YPC than Greg Little and were WRs.7 other skill players (with over 10 receptions so we can base it on something) had a better catch % than Greg Little's 50.8. The only players Greg Little beat were Massaquoi and Alex Smith. Beating 2/9 players on your team is catch % doesn't make you the next big thing IMO.

after all this discussion, i am curious why little is on your dynasty team. you had to have taken him in the top 6 more than likely. what exactly did you expect from him given the array of circumstance he was playing under?

I had a lot of first round rookie picks, so you have to take someone. I also took Ryan Williams, even though I wasn't crazy about him.I expected Little to be quicker, more explosive, and be more of a playmaker.

even as a rookie in a relatively new position after having taken a year off? i am curious if you (or anyone posting here who is not high on little) saw antonio brown, victor cruz, or jordy nelson coming last year. or stevie johnson, brandon lloyd, mike wallace, tampa mike in 2010. it's really easy to trumpet someone after he does something in the league. almost every single player has a weakness that you can build a negative case around, but to me the interesting thing about the perceived weaknesses are why they occur, not THAT they occur. players are not supposed to come into the league as finished products. if a player is thinking on the field it is very easy to believe it would lead to drops, hesitation, inconsistency. if you're not sure what to do there is almost no chance you'll be explosive, quick, and make plays. it isn't necessarily an indication he does not possess these traits but rather he did not demonstrate them because of temporary conditions. he certainly looked explosive at carolina, and i will only bail on him in cleveland after i see him play for 3 full seasons. ultimately you may be right, but i think it will be for the wrong reasons until he has a chance to fully learn how to play the position. the draft pundits thought he was extremely athletic and gifted. it's foolish to think that went away in a matter of months.

I enjoy well thought out posts and good debates.Little didn't meet my expectations in year one(maybe they were too high, who knows). But I just don't see a few little things here or there being the difference to making him elite.Overall, nobody knows anything in this crazy hobby...Arian Foster out of nowhere...or old guys like Brandon Lloyd/Rich Gannon. For my money, Little won't be a stud.I just moved Little + Desean Jackson for Wes Welker in a best ball dynasty FYI.

 

[zamboni]

I have no clue how to project Little - he's definitely a wild card.

But instead of my own viewpoint (and others who are using armchair quarterback assessments), I am keeping an open mind based upon what team brass thinks. The Browns seemed to be one of, if not THE, most WR-needy teams out there, yet they did not address the WR position at all in the draft or in free agency when they could have very easily grabbed Blackmon or one of the other WRs out there.

That speaks volumes about what the team thinks of Little, and they're not hitching their wagon to Massequoi. Now whether Little can take advantage of his opportunity is another matter, but he's certainly got the backing of his organization.

 

[PhantomJB]

But I do want to address this "off the field issue" that you guys throw around way too nonchalantly in Little's direction. I'll admit, I had my concerns about him last year when I heard he was suspended. But let's not give him that same label that was given to guys like Pacman, Burress, Tank Johnson, Chris Henry, Kenny Britt etc.

This guy speaks very intelligently, has a nice touch of humility, and God forbid, sometimes pauses to think about a question before answering it. But what impressed me most about Little was the fact that he was accountable.

Here's the video I was talking about:

This is way harsh IMO. It is definitely not "standard fare" to come across genuinely humble and thoughtful in an interview that is giving him a proctology exam about his prior mistakes. However, if it is indeed strictly a result of good coaching by his agent as you claim, doesn't that potentially bode well for getting coached up to help his drops?

The point is that the poster was not using the video as sole evidence he was primed for a breakout tomorrow morning but to address the off-the-field issues that others were using to put a cap on his potential.

If he can get over the drops (legitimate if), count me in the camp that sees 70-75 catch / 900-950 yard / 5-7 TD next year with small upside potential. A great value pick at his current FBG consensus ADP WR 41. Higher over time with upgraded other WRs and QB play.

 

[JPeso]

 

[Banger]

he's definitely someone I'm keeping my eye on. He's in an offense void of WR talent so the opportunity is there for him to take the reigns, he's physically talented but there are some negatives as well. Take a shot as a 4/5 WR keep him on the roster for a few weeks, see if he gets the targets and makes plays...if he does you keep him a bit longer, if not you cut him and pick up the WW darling of the week.

 

[Sabertooth]

e

His catch % was at 50% if i'm not mistaken...bad.

You realize that he doesn't take full blame on that percentage right?

Obviously. But it's not a good sign. Generally deep ball WR's have a low catch % due to the higher risk of completing a pass deep down field. Possession WRs should have a much higher catch % because they are easier to complete. Little caught 61 of 120 targets, his 11.6 YPC attest to his short pass identity in the offense.

This is good posting but as stated before. This was a rookie who used to play RB catching passes from Colt McCoy on an anemic Browns offense devout of playmakers. If there was a situation I'd let a 50% catch rating slip by, it's this one.

Here is every catch from Greg Little.Weeks 1-9

I am not sure how you watch this and come away thinking he left a ton of yards on the field.

 

[Sabertooth]

What was he suspended for in college? Is he on Goodell's radar for anything in the NfL yet or is he clean?

 

[lbouchard]

What was he suspended for in college? Is he on Goodell's radar for anything in the NfL yet or is he clean?

He accepted benefits from his agent I believe, like diamond earrings and a trip to the Bahamas. Not on Goodell's radar, he's clean.

 

[Bronx Bomber]

e

His catch % was at 50% if i'm not mistaken...bad.

You realize that he doesn't take full blame on that percentage right?

Obviously. But it's not a good sign. Generally deep ball WR's have a low catch % due to the higher risk of completing a pass deep down field. Possession WRs should have a much higher catch % because they are easier to complete. Little caught 61 of 120 targets, his 11.6 YPC attest to his short pass identity in the offense.

This is good posting but as stated before. This was a rookie who used to play RB catching passes from Colt McCoy on an anemic Browns offense devout of playmakers. If there was a situation I'd let a 50% catch rating slip by, it's this one.

Here is every catch from Greg Little.Weeks 1-9

Yeah he was pretty much contested on every catch. Where these clips only of his catches because I didn't see any drops. In fact I saw most all of his catches were with soft hands away from his body. This makes me think his drops must be lapses in concentration and not due to poor hands. I also liked that he was seemingly unaffected by any attempts at a DB jamming him off the line(the few plays I saw of this). He looked somewhat slow but with that siff-arm he will be very dangerous after the catch. I also like how he seems to just throw DBs off to the side when making his cuts to get extra yards. Overall Im optimistic after watching these clips. Would like to see every play though.

 

[Sabertooth]

What was he suspended for in college? Is he on Goodell's radar for anything in the NfL yet or is he clean?

He accepted benefits from his agent I believe, like diamond earrings and a trip to the Bahamas. Not on Goodell's radar, he's clean.

So basically in a ballpark with Cam Newton then.

 

[sspunisher]

What was he suspended for in college? Is he on Goodell's radar for anything in the NfL yet or is he clean?

He accepted benefits from his agent I believe, like diamond earrings and a trip to the Bahamas. Not on Goodell's radar, he's clean.

So basically in a ballpark with Cam Newton then.

It's just one of those deals where a couple minor incidents made everyone put a huge magnifying glass on him. He blocked the hell out of some DB in college and started talking smack to him when he was down, and as Little walked away the DB started rolling around in pain. It wasn't a killshot so anyone who tries to boil it up like Little knew the kid was hurt is just nonsense. It was the same pancake block you see a million times on gameday so I'm still not sure how the DB got hurt. But he ended up needing help off the field. That was one of the incidents that painted this "bad guy" picture of Little. Punting the ball in the stands was another issue. A bunch of illegal parking tickets and then finally the suspension for accepting benefits. He definitely showed some immaturity, but the yearlong suspension in college and Holmgren taking Little under his wing seems to have put it all in the past.

 

[Sabertooth]

What was he suspended for in college? Is he on Goodell's radar for anything in the NfL yet or is he clean?

He accepted benefits from his agent I believe, like diamond earrings and a trip to the Bahamas. Not on Goodell's radar, he's clean.

So basically in a ballpark with Cam Newton then.

It's just one of those deals where a couple minor incidents made everyone put a huge magnifying glass on him. He blocked the hell out of some DB in college and started talking smack to him when he was down, and as Little walked away the DB started rolling around in pain. It wasn't a killshot so anyone who tries to boil it up like Little knew the kid was hurt is just nonsense. It was the same pancake block you see a million times on gameday so I'm still not sure how the DB got hurt. But he ended up needing help off the field. That was one of the incidents that painted this "bad guy" picture of Little. Punting the ball in the stands was another issue. A bunch of illegal parking tickets and then finally the suspension for accepting benefits. He definitely showed some immaturity, but the yearlong suspension in college and Holmgren taking Little under his wing seems to have put it all in the past.

So no rapes, beatings, or thefts? People have a very strange idea of what a bad guy is. Heck he's in a division with killers and rapists and he's the bad guy?

 

[benson_will_lead_the_way]

What was he suspended for in college? Is he on Goodell's radar for anything in the NfL yet or is he clean?

He accepted benefits from his agent I believe, like diamond earrings and a trip to the Bahamas. Not on Goodell's radar, he's clean.

So basically in a ballpark with Cam Newton then.

It's just one of those deals where a couple minor incidents made everyone put a huge magnifying glass on him. He blocked the hell out of some DB in college and started talking smack to him when he was down, and as Little walked away the DB started rolling around in pain. It wasn't a killshot so anyone who tries to boil it up like Little knew the kid was hurt is just nonsense. It was the same pancake block you see a million times on gameday so I'm still not sure how the DB got hurt. But he ended up needing help off the field. That was one of the incidents that painted this "bad guy" picture of Little. Punting the ball in the stands was another issue. A bunch of illegal parking tickets and then finally the suspension for accepting benefits. He definitely showed some immaturity, but the yearlong suspension in college and Holmgren taking Little under his wing seems to have put it all in the past.

So no rapes, beatings, or thefts? People have a very strange idea of what a bad guy is. Heck he's in a division with killers and rapists and he's the bad guy?

He took money/gifts and took multiple free trips. As well as, being suspended from playing football at UNC for academic misconduct.

 

[lbouchard]

What was he suspended for in college? Is he on Goodell's radar for anything in the NfL yet or is he clean?

He accepted benefits from his agent I believe, like diamond earrings and a trip to the Bahamas. Not on Goodell's radar, he's clean.

So basically in a ballpark with Cam Newton then.

It's just one of those deals where a couple minor incidents made everyone put a huge magnifying glass on him. He blocked the hell out of some DB in college and started talking smack to him when he was down, and as Little walked away the DB started rolling around in pain. It wasn't a killshot so anyone who tries to boil it up like Little knew the kid was hurt is just nonsense. It was the same pancake block you see a million times on gameday so I'm still not sure how the DB got hurt. But he ended up needing help off the field. That was one of the incidents that painted this "bad guy" picture of Little. Punting the ball in the stands was another issue. A bunch of illegal parking tickets and then finally the suspension for accepting benefits. He definitely showed some immaturity, but the yearlong suspension in college and Holmgren taking Little under his wing seems to have put it all in the past.

So no rapes, beatings, or thefts? People have a very strange idea of what a bad guy is. Heck he's in a division with killers and rapists and he's the bad guy?

He took money/gifts and took multiple free trips. As well as, being suspended from playing football at UNC for academic misconduct.

I think the NCAA suspended him from football for accepting illegal benefites, not academic misconduct.

 

[wiscstlatlmia]

hahahahah .... that is the opposite of killing it

 

[benson_will_lead_the_way]

What was he suspended for in college? Is he on Goodell's radar for anything in the NfL yet or is he clean?

He accepted benefits from his agent I believe, like diamond earrings and a trip to the Bahamas. Not on Goodell's radar, he's clean.

So basically in a ballpark with Cam Newton then.

It's just one of those deals where a couple minor incidents made everyone put a huge magnifying glass on him. He blocked the hell out of some DB in college and started talking smack to him when he was down, and as Little walked away the DB started rolling around in pain. It wasn't a killshot so anyone who tries to boil it up like Little knew the kid was hurt is just nonsense. It was the same pancake block you see a million times on gameday so I'm still not sure how the DB got hurt. But he ended up needing help off the field. That was one of the incidents that painted this "bad guy" picture of Little. Punting the ball in the stands was another issue. A bunch of illegal parking tickets and then finally the suspension for accepting benefits. He definitely showed some immaturity, but the yearlong suspension in college and Holmgren taking Little under his wing seems to have put it all in the past.

So no rapes, beatings, or thefts? People have a very strange idea of what a bad guy is. Heck he's in a division with killers and rapists and he's the bad guy?

He took money/gifts and took multiple free trips. As well as, being suspended from playing football at UNC for academic misconduct.

I think the NCAA suspended him from football for accepting illegal benefites, not academic misconduct.

You're correct, but UNC suspended him for academic misconduct as well.http://bleacherreport.com/articles/488187-north-carolina-scandal-austin-quinn-little-all-suspended-for-season

 

[Alex P Keaton]

What was he suspended for in college? Is he on Goodell's radar for anything in the NfL yet or is he clean?

He accepted benefits from his agent I believe, like diamond earrings and a trip to the Bahamas. Not on Goodell's radar, he's clean.

So basically in a ballpark with Cam Newton then.

It's just one of those deals where a couple minor incidents made everyone put a huge magnifying glass on him. He blocked the hell out of some DB in college and started talking smack to him when he was down, and as Little walked away the DB started rolling around in pain. It wasn't a killshot so anyone who tries to boil it up like Little knew the kid was hurt is just nonsense. It was the same pancake block you see a million times on gameday so I'm still not sure how the DB got hurt. But he ended up needing help off the field. That was one of the incidents that painted this "bad guy" picture of Little. Punting the ball in the stands was another issue. A bunch of illegal parking tickets and then finally the suspension for accepting benefits. He definitely showed some immaturity, but the yearlong suspension in college and Holmgren taking Little under his wing seems to have put it all in the past.

So no rapes, beatings, or thefts? People have a very strange idea of what a bad guy is. Heck he's in a division with killers and rapists and he's the bad guy?

He took money/gifts and took multiple free trips. As well as, being suspended from playing football at UNC for academic misconduct.

I think the NCAA suspended him from football for accepting illegal benefites, not academic misconduct.

You're correct, but UNC suspended him for academic misconduct as well.http://bleacherreport.com/articles/488187-north-carolina-scandal-austin-quinn-little-all-suspended-for-season

So if we use this logic to suggest that he won't be a good pro, then I guess Chris Webber sucked at b-ball too.

 

[Sabertooth]

So if we use this logic to suggest that he won't be a good pro, then I guess Chris Webber sucked at b-ball too.

No need to get defensive Greg. I was just wondering what the suspension was for. It doesn't seem to be in the Brandon Marshall class of things, or even the Justin Blackmon class of problems. I'll say this, right now I think I'd prefer Weeden to Little over Gabbert to Blackmon.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

So if we use this logic to suggest that he won't be a good pro, then I guess Chris Webber sucked at b-ball too.

No need to get defensive Greg. I was just wondering what the suspension was for. It doesn't seem to be in the Brandon Marshall class of things, or even the Justin Blackmon class of problems. I'll say this, right now I think I'd prefer Weeden to Little over Gabbert to Blackmon.

Saber - my comments weren't directed at you, sorry for confusion. Was addressing benson...who seems to have irrational criticism of G Little...

 

[Tau837]

What was he suspended for in college? Is he on Goodell's radar for anything in the NfL yet or is he clean?

He accepted benefits from his agent I believe, like diamond earrings and a trip to the Bahamas. Not on Goodell's radar, he's clean.

So basically in a ballpark with Cam Newton then.

It's just one of those deals where a couple minor incidents made everyone put a huge magnifying glass on him. He blocked the hell out of some DB in college and started talking smack to him when he was down, and as Little walked away the DB started rolling around in pain. It wasn't a killshot so anyone who tries to boil it up like Little knew the kid was hurt is just nonsense. It was the same pancake block you see a million times on gameday so I'm still not sure how the DB got hurt. But he ended up needing help off the field. That was one of the incidents that painted this "bad guy" picture of Little. Punting the ball in the stands was another issue. A bunch of illegal parking tickets and then finally the suspension for accepting benefits. He definitely showed some immaturity, but the yearlong suspension in college and Holmgren taking Little under his wing seems to have put it all in the past.

Regarding the blocking incident referenced here, Little blocked the DB after the whistle, the DB went down with a torn ACL that occurred after the whistle, and Little stood over him and taunted him. He may or may not have known he was hurt on the play, but it was a punk move, regardless. And, as you point out, he did many other things that were further evidence of his lack of character.

 

[Sabertooth]

So if we use this logic to suggest that he won't be a good pro, then I guess Chris Webber sucked at b-ball too.

No need to get defensive Greg. I was just wondering what the suspension was for. It doesn't seem to be in the Brandon Marshall class of things, or even the Justin Blackmon class of problems. I'll say this, right now I think I'd prefer Weeden to Little over Gabbert to Blackmon.

Saber - my comments weren't directed at you, sorry for confusion. Was addressing benson...who seems to have irrational criticism of G Little...

I was kind of going for funny there. No worries.

 

[Sabertooth]

What was he suspended for in college? Is he on Goodell's radar for anything in the NfL yet or is he clean?

He accepted benefits from his agent I believe, like diamond earrings and a trip to the Bahamas. Not on Goodell's radar, he's clean.

So basically in a ballpark with Cam Newton then.

It's just one of those deals where a couple minor incidents made everyone put a huge magnifying glass on him. He blocked the hell out of some DB in college and started talking smack to him when he was down, and as Little walked away the DB started rolling around in pain. It wasn't a killshot so anyone who tries to boil it up like Little knew the kid was hurt is just nonsense. It was the same pancake block you see a million times on gameday so I'm still not sure how the DB got hurt. But he ended up needing help off the field. That was one of the incidents that painted this "bad guy" picture of Little. Punting the ball in the stands was another issue. A bunch of illegal parking tickets and then finally the suspension for accepting benefits. He definitely showed some immaturity, but the yearlong suspension in college and Holmgren taking Little under his wing seems to have put it all in the past.

Regarding the blocking incident referenced here, Little blocked the DB after the whistle, the DB went down with a torn ACL that occurred after the whistle, and Little stood over him and taunted him. He may or may not have known he was hurt on the play, but it was a punk move, regardless. And, as you point out, he did many other things that were further evidence of his lack of character.

Hey, when Hines Ward cheap shots a guy, it's called gritty.

 

[ponchsox]

I'm staying away from Browns skilled players, bad offense with "little" TD potential.

 

[zamboni]

I'm staying away from Browns skilled players, bad offense with "little" TD potential.

This type of backwards-looking thinking sometimes causes people to miss out on quality FF material, but to each his own.

 

[sspunisher]

This type of backwards-looking thinking sometimes causes people to miss out on quality FF material, but to each his own.

I agree. The Browns got huge upgrades at two of the most important positions on the offense. For the record, I'm referring to Richardson entering the starting lineup, and McCoy getting kicked out of it. Even the slightest improvement from last year would make a couple of Browns worth having on your fantasy team this year.

 

[gandalas]

What was he suspended for in college? Is he on Goodell's radar for anything in the NfL yet or is he clean?

He accepted benefits from his agent I believe, like diamond earrings and a trip to the Bahamas. Not on Goodell's radar, he's clean.

So basically in a ballpark with Cam Newton then.

It's just one of those deals where a couple minor incidents made everyone put a huge magnifying glass on him. He blocked the hell out of some DB in college and started talking smack to him when he was down, and as Little walked away the DB started rolling around in pain. It wasn't a killshot so anyone who tries to boil it up like Little knew the kid was hurt is just nonsense. It was the same pancake block you see a million times on gameday so I'm still not sure how the DB got hurt. But he ended up needing help off the field. That was one of the incidents that painted this "bad guy" picture of Little. Punting the ball in the stands was another issue. A bunch of illegal parking tickets and then finally the suspension for accepting benefits. He definitely showed some immaturity, but the yearlong suspension in college and Holmgren taking Little under his wing seems to have put it all in the past.

Regarding the blocking incident referenced here, Little blocked the DB after the whistle, the DB went down with a torn ACL that occurred after the whistle, and Little stood over him and taunted him. He may or may not have known he was hurt on the play, but it was a punk move, regardless. And, as you point out, he did many other things that were further evidence of his lack of character.

You call 'lack of character', I call it immaturity. He had multiple occasions to throw his teammates under the bus last season, or complain about things, but I have not heard word 1 from him.

 

[whatadai]

This type of backwards-looking thinking sometimes causes people to miss out on quality FF material, but to each his own.

I agree. The Browns got huge upgrades at two of the most important positions on the offense. For the record, I'm referring to Richardson entering the starting lineup, and McCoy getting kicked out of it. Even the slightest improvement from last year would make a couple of Browns worth having on your fantasy team this year.

Whoa whoa calm down. Richardson...ONE guy...can't turn this whole team around. There's the offensive line, which can't run block worth ####...and the passing game to take attention off Richardson to make him effective, which doesn't exist in Cleveland. Yes, McCoy is gone...but Weeden? Cleveland lost out on every QB teams wanted this past off-season and had last pick of the top 4 QBs of this draft. The guy played the shotgun with big weapons around him in college. Now he has to take snaps from the center with little to no weapons. Richardson? Will be pass blocking on passing downs or getting the most attention from defenses. Is there a chance Weeden is better than McCoy? Yes. Is there a chance he's not? Yes. Let's wait until at least the middle of training camp to start calling Weeden a huge upgrade. I wouldn't call Richardson over Hillis a HUGE upgrade either.