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Gun Control Laws - Where are we really? Where to go? (2 Viewers)

What else should we focus on in the gun control laws thread?  

The focus is because as violent crime overall was going down, we have seen a rise in gun violence.   Now in the last few years we have seen violent crime start to rise in places for various reasons. 


Gun violence is down relative to the 60's/70's as well.  Or, again as I stated above, was as of a few years ago.  The lefty rage may have changed that trend though.

 
Not trying to convince you of anything.  0% chance of that happening.  I am trying to understand your position and maybe give insight to my thinking.  

It just does not compute for me to say you don't know if crime is up, but you went to CC 100% of the time.  That tells me something changed to make your behavior and routine change.   But I get it, I am mostly going to be met with "its my right" and "don't have a gun if you think you are going to die" type posts.  If you don't have a reason besides that, cool. 

I don't know if he was "playing cop".  Those are my words, I am just saying I get where fish and others are coming from.   If a person isnt carrying because crime is up or their situation has changed (ie - now work in a different part of town) , especially if they weren't carrying before, then yes- i believe either their risk assessment is off, or there is an element of wanting to stop a crime and protect others involved.   I think that also tracks with posts in the other shooting threads as well.  
I'm really trying to understand the concept of not carrying because crime is down a bit. Just like the tornado example I gave, a deadly incident can come out of the blue. Well, I guess with tornados it depends on time of year. Not so for violent crime, unfortunately.

It only takes one incident to be 6 feet under (a stark reminder)...if you still don't want to carry, that's cool. Just don't act like you can't understand why somebody might want to protect themselves against a random violent act.

 
Have to?  No.  

Just curious, especially you, because a big deal is made about these examples as why you CC.   So would you CC as much if crime was dropping and curious if you know if crime is up around you or you are just using examples elsewhere around the country.  


the safer the area's a person is, the less chance someone tries a criminal act on them sure

I just googled and Frisco TX is the safest city in the USA and if I were there, I'd probably not feel as big a need to carry or lock my doors at night or live in a gated community etc

I live near Little Rock AR, work here .... the safety factor isn't here like in Frisco TX is it ?

question to you - why do rich anti-gun people pay for security? like, why do they have armed guards etc? do you think they should be able to protect themselves this way? why would they be scared and feel the need? 

 
And let's not act like really nice neighborhoods don't have home invasions, etc. Having a lot of money can make you a target.

If you follow good gun safety protocols, guns are your friend. We know what's wrong with the stats. Suicides, murder by intruder (which you need a gun for, LOL), and the like, have to be included to make it seem like guns can't be trusted as self-defense tools.

Lots and lots of nonsense in here.

 
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I've actually had people in here ask me what I'm afraid of, LOL. I don't know...do you have an alarm system? Cameras? Lock your doors? What are YOU afraid of?

You think personal protection only extends to your home?

I'll never understand the mindset, but I digress...

 
I've actually had people in here ask me what I'm afraid of, LOL. I don't know...do you have an alarm system? Cameras? Lock your doors? What are YOU afraid of?

You think personal protection only extends to your home?

I'll never understand the mindset, but I digress...
No, no, and barely.  

I am asking you because your behavior changed.   Correct me if I am wrong, but I am pretty sure it was you who was not 100% CC, and now you are.  That is what I don't understand and I am asking about, especially when you don't know about crime in the area. Was that one Tulsa shooting that did it? 

 
No, no, and barely.  

I am asking you because your behavior changed.   Correct me if I am wrong, but I am pretty sure it was you who was not 100% CC, and now you are.  That is what I don't understand and I am asking about, especially when you don't know about crime in the area. Was that one Tulsa shooting that did it? 
I upped my CC percentage before the Tulsa shooting.

I underestimated the mental health crisis we're in. Like with anything in life, it's best to adapt as needed.

 
No, no, and barely.  

I am asking you because your behavior changed.   Correct me if I am wrong, but I am pretty sure it was you who was not 100% CC, and now you are.  That is what I don't understand and I am asking about, especially when you don't know about crime in the area. Was that one Tulsa shooting that did it? 
It doesn't sound like you take many safety precautions. You might be setting yourself up for failure, but then again, you might be lucky enough in your lifetime to escape harm.

Spin the wheel... there's a good chance you'll be ok.

 
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It doesn't sound like you take many safety precautions. You might be setting yourself up for failure, but then again, you might be lucky enough in your lifetime to escape harm.

Spin the wheel... there's a good chance you'll be ok.
I don't that true overall, but we feel safe in our neighborhood that is a bit out of town and only has 30 or so houses on the street and culdesac.   We have a dog that is not a protect dog, but barks her head off at just about anything.     We forget to lock up a bit, and I don't feel the need for an alarm system or cameras.   I would consider it something changed with my situation or the safety of the area, but currently don't see the point.      But besides that, I am a pretty slow safe driver, wear a seatbelt, store my poisons and weed, etc..  So I would say I take a lot of precautions.  

Been thinking about your tornado example and think it applies to my thinking and questions directed to you as my reactions are similar.   I don't live where there are many tornadoes.   Would you think it was a bit irrational if I started preparing for tornados at my house?  Would you think it's rational to protect myself when it's just cloudy, but no storms in the forecast?  How about if I read that OK was seeing an increase in tornados and started preparing for it at my house even though 0 change of the odds of tornadoes here occurred?    Sure, it's my house and I can do whatever the hell I wanted, but I would guess that you and others would think it's a bit odd and irrational, and if I am being truthful I should agree.      Now, apply that concept to guns and CCing.  

 
Football Jones said:
I upped my CC percentage before the Tulsa shooting.

I underestimated the mental health crisis we're in. Like with anything in life, it's best to adapt as needed.
But why?   What changed your behavior if not the Tulsa shooting?   If you understood mental health, you would know that people suffering are FAR more likely to self harm than to commit these crimes,  so I am also not understanding what you are getting at here.   

 
John123 said:
Gun violence is down relative to the 60's/70's as well.  Or, again as I stated above, was as of a few years ago.  The lefty rage may have changed that trend though.
Neat cherry pick.   Down from its all-time high.   Trending up for almost 20 years.

 
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Football Jones said:
I upped my CC percentage before the Tulsa shooting.

I underestimated the mental health crisis we're in. Like with anything in life, it's best to adapt as needed.
How many crimes have you stopped?

 
How many crimes have you stopped?
This is getting old. If I stop one, I'll tell ya.

In the meantime, you continue to rely on other people for your protection (whether it be police or an armed citizen).

There's nothing particularly wrong with it. It's the best plan you got right now, anyway. 

 
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But why?   What changed your behavior if not the Tulsa shooting?   If you understood mental health, you would know that people suffering are FAR more likely to self harm than to commit these crimes,  so I am also not understanding what you are getting at here.   
It should be obvious, but the mass shootings along with a few other incidents locally made me start being more vigilant.

It's that simple, my friend (not hard to understand at all).

 
KarmaPolice said:
I don't that true overall, but we feel safe in our neighborhood that is a bit out of town and only has 30 or so houses on the street and culdesac.   We have a dog that is not a protect dog, but barks her head off at just about anything.     We forget to lock up a bit, and I don't feel the need for an alarm system or cameras.   I would consider it something changed with my situation or the safety of the area, but currently don't see the point.      But besides that, I am a pretty slow safe driver, wear a seatbelt, store my poisons and weed, etc..  So I would say I take a lot of precautions.  

Been thinking about your tornado example and think it applies to my thinking and questions directed to you as my reactions are similar.   I don't live where there are many tornadoes.   Would you think it was a bit irrational if I started preparing for tornados at my house?  Would you think it's rational to protect myself when it's just cloudy, but no storms in the forecast?  How about if I read that OK was seeing an increase in tornados and started preparing for it at my house even though 0 change of the odds of tornadoes here occurred?    Sure, it's my house and I can do whatever the hell I wanted, but I would guess that you and others would think it's a bit odd and irrational, and if I am being truthful I should agree.      Now, apply that concept to guns and CCing.  
This one is easy. If there's no chance of tornados, you can dismiss them.

Unfortunately, you can't say that about violent crime. It can strike essentially anywhere.

Again, if you want to spin the wheel, go for it. The odds are you won't need a gun.

 
A measure that would require a permit and safety training to buy a gun in Oregon will appear on the November ballot. If approved by voters in the fall, the measure would also ban high-capacity magazines, which hold more bullets than a regular firearm.

The Secretary of State’s website showed Monday that the measure exceeded the signatures needed by a margin of nearly 10,000.


Go Oregon!

 
It should be obvious, but the mass shootings along with a few other incidents locally made me start being more vigilant.

It's that simple, my friend (not hard to understand at all).
It's not obvious, but thanks for answering.  What type of local things happened that changed your tune? 

 
This one is easy. If there's no chance of tornados, you can dismiss them.

Unfortunately, you can't say that about violent crime. It can strike essentially anywhere.

Again, if you want to spin the wheel, go for it. The odds are you won't need a gun.
I mean, there is a chance of a tornado here.  I think one took out a town nearby about 30 years ago, and there is the occasional touchdown.    Very small odds, but there is a chance.   

 
It's not obvious, but thanks for answering.  What type of local things happened that changed your tune? 
I live in a small town (metro Tulsa). Not much crime here, but somebody got robbed at gunpoint at a convenience store. There was also an armed robbery at a pharmacy. Unusual activity around here. Luckily, neither one turned deadly. It got my attention, though.

Turns out one of the perps was upset because he lost his job during COVID and had been living in his car. I don't believe he had a prior criminal record.

There are a lot of dynamics that come into play with our current mental health situation. Many of the answers lie there.

 
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I mean, there is a chance of a tornado here.  I think one took out a town nearby about 30 years ago, and there is the occasional touchdown.    Very small odds, but there is a chance.   
Right, but you had some warning that conditions are favorable for a tornado.  

 
Right, but you had some warning that conditions are favorable for a tornado.  
Of course, that's why I am asking my questions about what changes somebody attitudes or habits about CCing.     I'm not the one that brought up tornados, I was just trying to use his example to illustrate my thought process.   Not the same thing, because like you say, there is some predictability of tornados with weather models.  

 
No, what if a person was required to be trained to CC?  I’m not big on CC either for that reason.
See we argue a bit, but we agree here.     About all I am asking for is a decent level of training to CC (not some b.s. 4 hour course that nobody probably fails).   I would be fine with that, and prefere CC over OC.   For the home, I would like safe storage requirements across the board, and better ways to stop bad guys from legally buying gunss.    

I don't think those are tough asks, but I doubt I ever see either in my lifetime.  

 
No, what if a person was required to be trained to CC?  I’m not big on CC either for that reason.
Just wondering why you would bring up police.  Have I ever suggested they shouldn't carry, or was that just a completely irrelevant comment?  

I'm against untrained citizens carrying guns as part of their wild west fantasy. 

 
See we argue a bit, but we agree here.     About all I am asking for is a decent level of training to CC (not some b.s. 4 hour course that nobody probably fails).   I would be fine with that, and prefere CC over OC.   For the home, I would like safe storage requirements across the board, and better ways to stop bad guys from legally buying gunss.    

I don't think those are tough asks, but I doubt I ever see either in my lifetime.  
Can't do any of that because of the 2A.

 
Just wondering why you would bring up police.  Have I ever suggested they shouldn't carry, or was that just a completely irrelevant comment?  

I'm against untrained citizens carrying guns as part of their wild west fantasy. 
You should be far more concerned with gun crime over the CC people then,

 
You should be far more concerned with gun crime over the CC people then,
I am concerned about all gun violence.   Untrained people carrying guns around do not help overall, and cause more gun violence.   Every state that allowed unpermitted concealed carry saw gun violence increase.   

Another useless, irrelevant deflection.  The hallmark of gun advocates.

 
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I am concerned about all gun violence.   Untrained people carrying guns around do not help overall, and cause more gun violence.   Every state that allowed unpermitted concealed carry saw gun violence increase.   

Another useless, irrelevant deflection.  The hallmark of gun advocates.
I must have missed your concern about the bad guys.  That is the true deflection.  It’s ok, most every poster on the left avoids it also, can’t blame you.  

 
I must have missed your concern about the bad guys.  That is the true deflection.  It’s ok, most every poster on the left avoids it also, can’t blame you.  
Well, we are in the gun control laws thread and your focus seems to be on the inner city violence - what, if any, gun control laws do you think might address that issue?  

 
Well, we are in the gun control laws thread and your focus seems to be on the inner city violence - what, if any, gun control laws do you think might address that issue?  
It doesn’t matter if 

- criminals don’t care 

- laws not enforced

- soft on crime DA’s

- cops not having the support of the mayor

There is far more crime involving guns than accidental shootings.  

 
It was probably discussed earlier, but i just saw this study in a Medscape Commentary by a pediatrician titled Is Patient Gun Ownership 'None of Our Business'?

The article references this survey Firearm Storage in US Households With Children: Findings From the 2021 National Firearm Survey Since the last survey in 2015, there was a trend toward safer storage, but due to an increase in households with both guns and children, the estimated number of households with both children under the age of 18 and a loaded and unlocked firearm hasn't changed - about 4.6 million. The context is the ~400 unintentional shootings by children per year including 125 in 2020 when a child age 5 or younger shot themselves or someone else. The doctor mentions a 4 times greater risk of suicide when a gun is in the house.

Do any gun owners have an issue with a doctor asking about guns in the house?

 
It doesn’t matter if 

- criminals don’t care 

- laws not enforced

- soft on crime DA’s

- cops not having the support of the mayor

There is far more crime involving guns than accidental shootings.  
Didn't really answer my question, but I get what you are saying.  

I think we are both getting at the same thing though, and it's why (IMO) these types of things aren't brought up as much in the gun threads.  I don't think the issues you are claiming people don't care about, or at least don't talk about as much, are tackled with gun reform.     Sort of like mental health in that I think it's important to address it as a country (talking gun reform here), but I don't think it's a main solution to this issue.

That's why I don't bring it up much in these threads, not because I don't care about the issue.  

 
if he asks about knives, poisons, swimming pools, large breed dogs, ATV's, locking doors/cabinets etc etc probably not

but targeting just guns? yes, I have a problem 
The doctor who wrote the commentary said the gun owner didn't object to questions about drugs, smoking, alcohol, but did object when he asked about firearms in the house. One of his main concerns is the high rate of completed suicide with a gun - he says 90% - compared with only 4% overall.

 
The doctor who wrote the commentary said the gun owner didn't object to questions about drugs, smoking, alcohol, but did object when he asked about firearms in the house. One of his main concerns is the high rate of completed suicide with a gun - he says 90% - compared with only 4% overall.
I'm guessing the link wasn't clicked.   IMO anybody who has an issue with that question or are being overly defensive about it probably are much more likely not to have it stored safely.   As the doctor said - all sorts of questions are asked on visits or at least on the questionnaires -  anything from seatbelts to TV time to drugs/alcohol.    

People have posted that guns have become a top killer for kids now, and a doctor doesn't have a right to ask about it? 

 
Another dirtbag bites the dust in St. Charles, Missouri. Police believe the perp was responsible for a string of violent crimes. His specialty was holding convenience store clerks at knifepoint.

The hero doesn't want to be identified, but big-time props, my friend.

 
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Another dirtbag bites the dust in St. Charles, Missouri.


Where's @-fish-? Here's our latest crime-stopper hero for ya...

Man shoots, kills robbery suspect during ‘violent crime spree’ in St. Charles

Janelle O'Dea

Jul 17, 2022

ST. CHARLES — A St. Louis man on a bathroom break at a QuikTrip here shot and killed an armed robber early Saturday.

Police said the robber was on a “violent crime spree” across three St. Charles gas stations.

The QuikTrip customer, identified only as a 26-year-old man from St. Louis, stopped around 3:20 a.m. at the gas station at 2260 First Capitol Drive to use the restroom and make a purchase, St. Charles police said in a release. The man was on his way back to his vehicle in front of the store when he saw a black SUV pull up abruptly.

St. Charles police on Sunday identified the deceased man as Lance M. Bush, 26, of St. Louis. Police said Bush was homeless. 

Police would not release the name of the customer who killed Bush, saying St. Charles County prosecutors will review the case first to determine if the killing was justified.

The customer watched Bush get out of the SUV, run into the QuikTrip carrying a backpack, and approach a clerk by the coffee pots, police said. Bush then grabbed the clerk and dragged her to the front of the store while she was screaming.

The customer saw Bush inside the station holding a knife to the clerk’s throat. The customer got his 9 mm handgun from his vehicle, entered the store, and confronted the suspect, police said.

Bush grabbed his backpack, told the man, “I have something for you,” and walked toward him, police said.

The customer then fired several times. Bush fell to the floor. The customer and the clerk, who were uninjured, both called 911, police said.

Bush was taken to a local hospital, where he was pronounced dead, police said.

Police said they believed Bush was responsible for two other crimes just prior to the QuikTrip incident.

Just before 3 a.m. Saturday a suspect entered an On The Run convenience store at a Mobil gas station at 1401 South Fifth Street and announced a robbery. He held a knife to the throat of a clerk, 43, while she opened the cash register, according to police.

The suspect then pushed the clerk to the floor, stole money from the cash register and dragged the clerk toward the rear of the store asking where the safe was. When the clerk couldn’t open the safe, he dragged her back to the front counter to open a second register. This suspect also fled in a black SUV.

The clerk had knife cuts on her left wrist, right hand and neck, and was taken to a hospital for non-life-threatening injuries.

Around 3:15 a.m., with officers en route to the On The Run, a call came in for an alarm at Midtown Phillips 66, 524 First Capitol Drive. Officers found broken glass and began investigating it as a burglary.

Investigators determined the black SUV was a 2013 Toyota Highlander, reported stolen in an armed robbery on July 15 from the 13500 block of Riverport Drive in Maryland Heights.

Items believed to have been stolen from the burglary at Midtown Phillips 66 were located in the vehicle, police said.

Police declined to release surveillance video from the three gas stations.

Bush's criminal history includes a pending felony property damage charge in St. Louis County. Charges said Bush was a former employee of the Applebee's restaurant at 11077 New Halls Ferry Road and that on March 30, he began smashing several stacks of dishes and tossing frozen food when the restaurant's manager told him his final paycheck wouldn't be available for several days. Police said he caused an estimated $6,000 in damages.

Bush also had citations in St. Charles municipal court earlier this year for driving on a revoked license, trespassing and stealing. The address listed on the trespassing and stealing tickets is for the Ameristar Casino. In addition, Bush had a March 2 larceny citation in St. Louis County at a convenience store in Earth City.

 
BTW, I believe the constitutional carry law in Indiana wasn't even a month old. It passed just in time.

Also, for the wannabe psychiatrists in here (we have a few), the young man in Indiana is turning down interview requests and the hero in Missouri doesn't want to be identified.

It seems your wild west fantasy theory is off base. You might want to go back to your regular job.

 
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Maybe.

Why, does it bother you?

This thread is about gun control.
What bothers me is the continuous ignoring of people's posts and listing those examples as some silly gotcha that nobody is making.  The opposing posters could post daily articles about accidents and suicides too, but it's not constructive conversation and nobody's making the point that those things don't happen either.  

 But its the internet and fish brought it on himself a bit with the mental illness angle.  Just trying to weed out more people who are not even trying to talk to each other instead of full on stop coming to this place, hence my question.  

 

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