What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Gun Control Laws - Where are we really? Where to go? (3 Viewers)

Stealthycat said:
dozens of trained professionals in Uvalde failed for 70 minutes

a 22 year old untrained guy in Indiana killed a mass shooter in 2 minutes

just sayin ... 
Click to expand...
Very good point.

The big picture is it takes police 10 minutes on average to even show up to a 911 call. Needless to say, 10 minutes is a lifetime in many violent situations.

Police typically do their best...just don't count on them to save you. It's a good idea to have some autonomy over you and your family's safety

 
Last edited by a moderator:
KarmaPolice said:
What bothers me is the continuous ignoring of people's posts and listing those examples as some silly gotcha that nobody is making.  The opposing posters could post daily articles about accidents and suicides too, but it's not constructive conversation and nobody's making the point that those things don't happen either.  

 But its the internet and fish brought it on himself a bit with the mental illness angle.  Just trying to weed out more people who are not even trying to talk to each other instead of full on stop coming to this place, hence my question.  
Click to expand...
Post anything you want. Plenty have posted about things going the other way.

People can form their own opinions on how impactful it is to gun control (like suicides, etc.).

Plus, it recognizes a good deed.

 
One thing I struggle with in these cases, and here comes out my soft/lib leanings, do these people deserve the death penalty for their crimes?   To me that is an element that is removed by citizens taking action vs cops and the legal system.  

Case by case answer, but just something in the back of my mind when I read the examples that often result in death.  

 
KarmaPolice said:
One thing I struggle with in these cases, and here comes out my soft/lib leanings, do these people deserve the death penalty for their crimes?   To me that is an element that is removed by citizens taking action vs cops and the legal system.  

Case by case answer, but just something in the back of my mind when I read the examples that often result in death.  
Click to expand...
Well, no, he wouldn't get the death penalty if he were taken alive.

The act of putting a knife to someone's throat (multiple incidents) is a deadly threat. And as I ask in all these cases, why was this guy even on the street to begin with?

Maybe he had never been caught or maybe his previous sentence(s) was too light. 

 
Hey crimefighters, I have a question.   If you're carrying and a business has a no gun policy, do you abide by it and not enter or do you just ignore it?

 
Last edited by a moderator:
KarmaPolice said:
But its the internet and fish brought it on himself a bit with the mental illness angle.
Click to expand...


Not just that, but how about his repeated trolling, asking posters if they've stopped any crimes today. He brought it upon himself more than just a bit. Sow and reap.

 
LawFitz said:
Not just that, but how about his repeated trolling, asking posters if they've stopped any crimes today. He brought it upon himself more than just a bit. Sow and reap.
Click to expand...
I'm not trolling.   I'm very interested to know how often the CC guys actually stop crimes, or are they just uselessly carrying guns around.  It's a pretty legitimate question.

 
I mean, at some point you've got to think to yourself, "I've been carrying a gun everywhere I go for a couple years now, and I've never used it.   I kind of feel like a boob.   Turns out the statistics are right and the chance of me ever using this thing is way less than the chance I'll accidentally shoot myself in the foot."

 
LawFitz said:
Not just that, but how about his repeated trolling, asking posters if they've stopped any crimes today. He brought it upon himself more than just a bit. Sow and reap.
Click to expand...
Imo his doing that is akin to what others are doing to him by @ing him with each good guy with a gun example.   Everyone has a choice to do it or not.  A lot of very strong emotions and opinions with some of these topics. 

There is trolling on both sides going on, and the same people also have good points.  

 
KarmaPolice said:
Imo his doing that is akin to what others are doing to him by @ing him with each good guy with a gun example.   Everyone has a choice to do it or not.  A lot of very strong emotions and opinions with some of these topics. 

There is trolling on both sides going on, and the same people also have good points.  
Click to expand...


I only see one guy getting trolled and it's just throwing his trollish comments back at him with real-world accounts to counter his narrative. Whether he likes it or not there are regular examples of regular law-abiders protecting themselves and their communities from terrible people thx to 2A.

 
LawFitz said:
I only see one guy getting trolled and it's just throwing his trollish comments back at him with real-world accounts to counter his narrative. Whether he likes it or not there are regular examples of regular law-abiders protecting themselves and their communities from terrible people thx to 2A.
Click to expand...
If that's supposed to be trolling, you gun fetishists need to step up your game.  We showed SC why anecdotes are meaningless years ago, before I put him on ignore.   Would you like me to flood this page with stories of children accidentally blowing their heads off?

 
Last week I was at the park (which is actually right next to our police station) and this guy was throwing a nerf football around with his kid.   He goes running to catch a bad throw and his gun fell on the ground.

Was he (a) a responsible gun owner who was contributing to society's safety; or

              (b) a dufus endangering himself and others, including his son?

 
-fish- said:
If that's supposed to be trolling, you gun fetishists need to step up your game.  We showed SC why anecdotes are meaningless years ago, before I put him on ignore.   Would you like me to flood this page with stories of children accidentally blowing their heads off?
Click to expand...
I'll admit, I almost started to do that, but the first one I came across was a Milwaukee shooting himself in the head with a gun that the dad left chilling.  Screw that, I'm not about to read and bombard the board with those stories on the regular.  

 
-fish- said:
Last week I was at the park (which is actually right next to our police station) and this guy was throwing a nerf football around with his kid.   He goes running to catch a bad throw and his gun fell on the ground.

Was he (a) a responsible gun owner who was contributing to society's safety; or

              (b) a dufus endangering himself and others, including his son?
Click to expand...
B

 
KarmaPolice said:
I think this works in tandem with fish's question about going into businesses.   If you CC 100% like FJ is talking about, wtf do you do if a business doesn't allow then? Wtf you do if you are playing ball with your kid at the park? Etc, etc. 
Click to expand...
You know better than to have to ask this question... cmon. 😜

 
Last edited by a moderator:
-fish- said:
That's true.  If you don't abide by it you're a criminal.

Do the CC guys carry where a business says not to?
Click to expand...
State dependent, MOST "no guns allowed" signs do not comply with state regulations or lack force of law. 

Tbise signs aren't worth the paper they're printed on, and carry as much weight as the cranky old codger waving a 20mph sign on a 40mph street because he doesn't like traffic noise. 
 

For example, below are the requirements for Tennessee. I encourage anyone to educate themselves on the specifics of the law in their state so they know which (if any) signs carry force of law, and which signs can be simply ignored.

A. Permit Holders

In order to prohibit firearms on the premises, the notice of such prohibition must be posted in the form of a sign.Tennessee gives individuals, corporations, business entities, and local, state, and federal government entities or agents thereof the authority to prohibit firearm possession on their premises. 

No Guns signs must meet all requirements to prohibit firearms on that premises. The requirements are: 

The sign must be displayed in prominent locations including all entrances primarily used by persons entering the property, building, or portion of the property where weapon possession is prohibited. 

The notice must be plainly visible to the average person. 

The notice must be posted in English, but may include a duplicate notice in any other language used by individuals frequenting the premises. 

The sign shall include the phrase “NO FIREARMS ALLOWED” and such phrase must measure one inch high and eight inches wide; the sign must also include the phrase “As authorized by T.C.A. § 39-17-1359.” 

The sign must also include a pictorial representation of the phrase “NO FIREARMS ALLOWED” in the form of a circle with a diagonal line through the circle and the image of a firearm inside the circle under the diagonal line. The diagonal line shall be at a forty-five degree angle from the upper left to the lower right side of the circle. 

 
Last edited by a moderator:
KarmaPolice said:
I think this works in tandem with fish's question about going into businesses.   If you CC 100% like FJ is talking about, wtf do you do if a business doesn't allow then? Wtf you do if you are playing ball with your kid at the park? Etc, etc. 
Click to expand...
I live in Oklahoma. That mostly should answer your question.

On the rare occasion there's a business I don't know about, I either go somewhere else or simply put it in my vehicle if I want their goods or services bad enough (hardly ever).

A business owner has the right not to allow weapons so it would be a trespassing offense if they cared enough to press charges (a misdemeanor). If you don't see the sign, no biggie. All that typically happens is they politely remind you of their policy.

BTW, nothing wrong with playing catch or whatever in the park with a holstered gun (even running...cops do it all the time). If you DO have any doubts about how secure your gun is holstered, you can leave it in your vehicle.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
[icon] said:
State dependent, MOST "no guns allowed" signs do not comply with state regulations or lack force of law. 

Tbise signs aren't worth the paper they're printed on, and carry as much weight as the cranky old codger waving a 20mph sign on a 40mph street because he doesn't like traffic noise. 
 

For example, below are the requirements for Tennessee. I encourage anyone to educate themselves on the specifics of the law in their state so they know which (if any) signs carry force of law, and which signs can be simply ignored.

A. Permit Holders

In order to prohibit firearms on the premises, the notice of such prohibition must be posted in the form of a sign.Tennessee gives individuals, corporations, business entities, and local, state, and federal government entities or agents thereof the authority to prohibit firearm possession on their premises. 

No Guns signs must meet all requirements to prohibit firearms on that premises. The requirements are: 

The sign must be displayed in prominent locations including all entrances primarily used by persons entering the property, building, or portion of the property where weapon possession is prohibited. 

The notice must be plainly visible to the average person. 

The notice must be posted in English, but may include a duplicate notice in any other language used by individuals frequenting the premises. 

The sign shall include the phrase “NO FIREARMS ALLOWED” and such phrase must measure one inch high and eight inches wide; the sign must also include the phrase “As authorized by T.C.A. § 39-17-1359.” 

The sign must also include a pictorial representation of the phrase “NO FIREARMS ALLOWED” in the form of a circle with a diagonal line through the circle and the image of a firearm inside the circle under the diagonal line. The diagonal line shall be at a forty-five degree angle from the upper left to the lower right side of the circle. 
Click to expand...
seems pretty clear.  no clue why you don't think they mean anything.  it's private property and if you violate it it's a criminal trespass.  i'm assuming you mean by your post that you ignore them.  

 
the rover said:
seems pretty clear.  no clue why you don't think they mean anything.  it's private property and if you violate it it's a criminal trespass.  i'm assuming you mean by your post that you ignore them.  
Click to expand...
Private businesses have all the information they need to follow the law if they really want to keep people from carrying.  

Also, ignoring the flawed no carry sign is not grounds for criminal trespass. Ignoring a request to leave after they discover that you are carrying is, however.  Aren't you a lawyer? Or is my notebook off... 

Yes, I absolutely ignore signs that lack force of law. No the businesses do not know, because I am discreet. Yes I would gladly leave immediately if ever confronted and asked to do so.

Again, I strongly encourage anyone who Carries to educate themselves on which signs you can ignore if you wish.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
I've definitely carried into places unknowingly (and found out later). Since it's concealed, they very likely aren't going to notice, anyway.

Nobody has ever been convicted of trespassing with a weapon as far as I know, but I'm not saying it hasn't happened.

 
[icon] said:
Private businesses have all the information they need to follow the law if they really want to keep people from carrying.  

Also, ignoring the flawed no carry sign is not grounds for criminal trespass. Ignoring a request to leave after they discover that you are carrying is, however.  Aren't you a lawyer? Or is my notebook off... 

Yes, I absolutely ignore signs that lack force of law. No the businesses do not know, because I am discreet. Yes I would gladly leave immediately if ever confronted and asked to do so.

Again, I strongly encourage anyone who Carries to educate themselves on which signs you can ignore if you wish.
Click to expand...
This is correct. I should've made clear it's only trespassing if you refuse to leave (at least around here).

 
Last edited by a moderator:
[icon] said:
Private businesses have all the information they need to follow the law if they really want to keep people from carrying.  

Also, ignoring the flawed no carry sign is not grounds for criminal trespass. Ignoring a request to leave after they discover that you are carrying is, however.  Aren't you a lawyer? Or is my notebook off... 

Yes, I absolutely ignore signs that lack force of law. No the businesses do not know, because I am discreet. Yes I would gladly leave immediately if ever confronted and asked to do so.

Again, I strongly encourage anyone who Carries to educate themselves on which signs you can ignore if you wish.
Click to expand...
yeah the sign means you don't have permission to enter private property without complying with their legal conditions.  that's a criminal trespass.

law abiding citizens, indeed.

 
Stealthycat said:
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/washington-secrets/defensive-buys-drive-guns-sales-to-35th-straight-month-over-1m

legal gun owners are not the problem
Click to expand...
Interesting. 

I'd say we've had some decent debates in here save for a few knuckleheads, but the vast majority of the gun control activist's angles have been squashed like a bug. 

The elephant in the room is mental health. AR-15s have been on the civilian market for over 50 years. I wish I had a good idea about how to go about solving our critical mental health issue, but I don't (at least right now). Maybe our resident pretend psychiatrists can help.

 
Football Jones said:
I live in Oklahoma. That mostly should answer your question.

On the rare occasion there's a business I don't know about, I either go somewhere else or simply put it in my vehicle if I want their goods or services bad enough (hardly ever).

A business owner has the right not to allow weapons so it would be a trespassing offense if they cared enough to press charges (a misdemeanor). If you don't see the sign, no biggie. All that typically happens is they politely remind you of their policy.

BTW, nothing wrong with playing catch or whatever in the park with a holstered gun (even running...cops do it all the time). If you DO have any doubts about how secure your gun is holstered, you can leave it in your vehicle.
Click to expand...
What are the regulations, if any, around this? 

 
[icon] said:
State dependent, MOST "no guns allowed" signs do not comply with state regulations or lack force of law. 

Tbise signs aren't worth the paper they're printed on, and carry as much weight as the cranky old codger waving a 20mph sign on a 40mph street because he doesn't like traffic noise. 
 

For example, below are the requirements for Tennessee. I encourage anyone to educate themselves on the specifics of the law in their state so they know which (if any) signs carry force of law, and which signs can be simply ignored.

A. Permit Holders

In order to prohibit firearms on the premises, the notice of such prohibition must be posted in the form of a sign.Tennessee gives individuals, corporations, business entities, and local, state, and federal government entities or agents thereof the authority to prohibit firearm possession on their premises. 

No Guns signs must meet all requirements to prohibit firearms on that premises. The requirements are: 

The sign must be displayed in prominent locations including all entrances primarily used by persons entering the property, building, or portion of the property where weapon possession is prohibited. 

The notice must be plainly visible to the average person. 

The notice must be posted in English, but may include a duplicate notice in any other language used by individuals frequenting the premises. 

The sign shall include the phrase “NO FIREARMS ALLOWED” and such phrase must measure one inch high and eight inches wide; the sign must also include the phrase “As authorized by T.C.A. § 39-17-1359.” 

The sign must also include a pictorial representation of the phrase “NO FIREARMS ALLOWED” in the form of a circle with a diagonal line through the circle and the image of a firearm inside the circle under the diagonal line. The diagonal line shall be at a forty-five degree angle from the upper left to the lower right side of the circle. 
Click to expand...
Please tell me one of you have thrown this one in a business owner's face.  :lol:   

ETA:  nm, I also read the posts about complying if confronted.   Just was imagining that exchange and how amazing it would be to see somebody whipping out a little tape measure.  

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Football Jones said:
Interesting. 

I'd say we've had some decent debates in here save for a few knuckleheads, but the vast majority of the gun control activist's angles have been squashed like a bug. 

The elephant in the room is mental health. AR-15s have been on the civilian market for over 50 years. I wish I had a good idea about how to go about solving our critical mental health issue, but I don't (at least right now). Maybe our resident pretend psychiatrists can help.
Click to expand...
Can you be more specific what you mean when you write this?   

 
the rover said:
yeah the sign means you don't have permission to enter private property without complying with their legal conditions.  that's a criminal trespass.

law abiding citizens, indeed.
Click to expand...
My right to carry is constitutionally protected. A fake sign that doesn't carry force of law is worthless in the courtroom. Show me two cases of this being successfully prosecuted. 

The only way trespass charge MAY hold is if you are told to leave and refuse. 

 
KarmaPolice said:
Please tell me one of you have thrown this one in a business owner's face.  :lol:   

ETA:  nm, I also read the posts about complying if confronted.   Just was imagining that exchange and how amazing it would be to see somebody whipping out a little tape measure.  
Click to expand...
Whipping out a little tape measure? 

 
I'd also like to add, with Bruen now codifying Concealed Carry it's only a matter of time before those silly little signs are taken out via the courtroom... just like NY State's unconditional restrictions against public carry. I'm guessing pretty much ALL no-carry signs will be rendered unconstitutional. 

I'll give it 36 months... only because courts are slow. Guessing FPC or GOA already has a case in the queue...

This is what they do, and they're REALLY good at it. 

 
Last edited by a moderator:
So, what do people think about the SIG MCX Spear being available to civilians?

https://www.sigsauer.com/mcx-spear.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIG_MCX_Spear

This thing is just going into use in the US Army, replacing the M4. It's got a neat new trick, popping right through body armor. It fires at roughly twice the velocity of an AR-15 and a crazy range, lethal at over a kilometer away. Semi-auto of course. Only downside is that it is a bit more unwieldy. Civilian model even looks like it has a built in suppressor.

ETA:

The Spear can use a couple of different types of ammo, and the types available to the public today do not include the armor piercing type. That doesn't mean that will always be the case, and there are already several currently available weapons and ammo that are capable of piercing armor.

Since this is the civilian version of the Army's rifle, I expect it will be quite popular. Despite the first edition version costing $8K, apparently the initial batch of 5,000 sold out almost immediately. The price will come down a lot over the next decade, and at some point, mass shooters will be using this one IMO.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
[icon] said:
Whipping out a little tape measure? 
Click to expand...
I guess I thought it was funny.    You posted the regulations that a business owner must follow for their no guns signs to be legal, and one was the size of the lettering.   I pictured a CCer busting a business owner on that if confronted or asked if they saw the sign, then said CCer schooling them on that detail.   

:shrug:  

 
KarmaPolice said:
I guess I thought it was funny.    You posted the regulations that a business owner must follow for their no guns signs to be legal, and one was the size of the lettering.   I pictured a CCer busting a business owner on that if confronted or asked if they saw the sign, then said CCer schooling them on that detail.   

:shrug:  
Click to expand...


Gotcha!  Yes that actually is pretty funny  :lol:  

Given the bizarre "penis size" angles some weirdo anti-gun folks take in here, I was worried you had fallen into that trap. Glad to see you're still well above that foolishness. 

i've never measured a sign.. you can usually tell instantly if it's valid or not. I'm certainly not going to be such a nit, but not doubt there are some like that out there. 

As info... the average male hand making the "hang loose" gesture is about 8" for reference. If one cared enough to want to check... that's a quick solution. Not my bag but different strokes. :)  

 
(HULK) said:
So, what do people think about the SIG MCX Spear being available to civilians?

https://www.sigsauer.com/mcx-spear.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIG_MCX_Spear

This thing is just going into use in the US Army, replacing the M4. It's got a neat new trick, popping right through body armor. It fires at roughly twice the velocity of an AR-15 and a crazy range, lethal at over a kilometer away. Semi-auto of course. Only downside is that it is a bit more unwieldy. Civilian model even looks like it has a built in suppressor.
Click to expand...
Uhhhhh love ya GB but some bad info here: 

No model has a built in (integral) suppressor.
Sig MCX line come with an "inert training device" that looks and weighs like a suppressor (for training purposes)... but a suppressor is sold separately and is affixed to the end of the rifle (in the place of the inert training device) like any AR-15. 

Velocity is not double the velocity... it's actually LOWER  
M193 (5.56 AR-15 round) : 3250fps
M855A1 (5.56 AR-15 round) : 3100fps
M855 Green Tip (5.56 AR-15 round) : 3050fps
.277 Fury (Spear's Round) : 2970fps (16" barrel) 

What makes the .277 Fury round more effective is kinetic energy due to its mass (140gr vs 55gr weight).  That said it's not delivering hits beyond anything that isn't already available: 

Kinetic Energy at 100yd:
.300 Win Mag: 2947 ft/lb
.277 Fury: 2529 ft/lb
.308 Winchester: 2356 ft/lb

Regarding the range, yes it delivers lethal kinetic energy at greater range than 5.56 (due to mass), it's still in the range of other common cartridges mentioned above. Not to mention I'd wager 0.0% of gun crime is committed at ranges where this is relevant. :)

Good graphic showing bullet drop at range here.  You'll see the comparative accuracy at range is negligible inside 600 yards. 


Finally, the gap between civilian and military issued versions of the MCX Spear platform is actually GREATER than that between M4 and Civilian AR-15 platforms. The MIL edition Spear is not only select fire, but also fires at a higher chamber pressure. 

Bottom line: I have zero issue with the .277 Sig Fury cartridge or any rifle that chambers it. 

 
Last edited by a moderator:
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

GordonGekko
Operation Fast & Furious Scandal: Obama Administration's ATF Sent Guns To Drug Cartels (5/27/22 20:22 PST)
Replies
7
Views
1K
Max Power
Max Power
GordonGekko
New York Enacts Ridiculous New Gun Laws: "I’m A NYC Liberal, And I Want A Gun" (7/3/22 20:29 PST)
Replies
28
Views
2K
FairWarning
FairWarning
The Z Machine
Abortion - Where do we go from here? (Policy and politics, not law)
2 3
Replies
113
Views
5K
supermike80
supermike80

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 2 (members: 0, guests: 2)
Back
Top